You should do more of those small illustrative bits like 6:05, where we see the armor in action. I don't actually think it looked that silly. Lindybeige does this a lot, and it really helps illustrating his points. It would be equally useful for the more serious stuff like your videos.
I wanted to add something . For a burgonet ( south germany , 1520-30 ) it consists of of 3 pieces a movable of needed . ( like the face protection of a sallet ) . In a manuscript it even shows a landsknecht screaming with a pulled down burgonet faceplate .
Knyght Errant It sure came out of nowhere. I had my own "wait, what?" moment when that scene showed up, especially since you just kept on doing your monologue without even referring to yourself doing it like you normally would when demonstrating stuff. Lol.
Knyght Errant it was amazing and really illustrated your point. And even though it was just a demonstration you looked completely believable. Well done!
As always, your content is great Ian, i especially liked your acting at 6:05 and no, you didn't look like an idiot it was truly impresive and it demonstrated very well what you were explaining.
This is pretty late, but the gif thumbnail might be what you're looking for i.ytimg.com/an_webp/tDkB-zMUf7k/mqdefault_6s.webp?du=3000&sqp=COGezvUF&rs=AOn4CLAq-WoP-86ImBpYqQXlqQrjhdn9CA
For years, I fought in a close helm variant of a Sallet (in which the bevor and "top" were one piece and the helm operated much more like an armet that the traditional sallet and bevor). The pivoting visor, and a pivoting plate on the bevor were both held "in the closed position" by sprung pins. In the case of the visor, it also had a hook that closed into the pin. I found that experience in getting the helmet open and/or off really told. Even when I was still wearing gauntlets, after a while, I "knew" exactly where the pins (and the hook) were, and could manipulate them pretty quickly and easily. I bought the helmet new and it also got easier over time as the pins wore in. However: - No way was it as easy to do so as it would have been if the pins had not been there. It always to a couple of seconds to open, and more than that to close (especially the hook through the visor pin, and the pin in the bevor). - Closing and securing the visor and bevor was a slower and much more tedious process than popping the pins and opening them. - I could see someone, on the battlefield, opening the visor (even a pinned and/or hooked one) easily, then just slapping the visor down into place if pressed for time, ignoring the hook. The pin would keep it secure most of the time. Indeed, once or twice, I inadvertently went into combat without having secured the hook, and never had a problem with the visor. - I also found that my visor would stay open when raised, even while running and hopping around. Not sure if this was due to the tightness of the pivots, or that they were placed slightly off, as I never thought to check. But certainly, the visor had no tendency to fall down on its own or flop around.
I used a very similar setup. The only difference was that the lower plate that lifted up and locked on the bevor did not exist on mine. Instead, the visor was longer to compensate. I went through 3 metal spring visor locks within 6 months before switching to plastic. The steel spring ones would snap in combat. The plastic one lasted until I couldn't fight anymore, around a decade after putting the plastic spring in. :) I made fingered gauntlets and never really had any issues. Of course, I could roll and smoke a cigarette in them, so...
Toby Capwell has also suggested that asymmetric positioning of the hinges on bascinets allowed the visors to be wedged up or down without the use of a spring or other picking mechanism. Sure, someone could still push your visor open in a fight, but at least there was some resistance and it took a deliberate act, rather than a chance blow, to push a visor open. (He discusses this with Matt Easton in a video on Scholagladiatoria Channel).
sallets can have very narrow vision slits, thereby nessesitating indexing the visor with the spring pin. especially if the visor is made well the pin will snap into place also when the visor comes down unintentionally (horse might jump a bit more actively, and the visor might fall down, for instance) manipulating the spring pin with a gauntlet is fairly easily done the hook and pin arrangement is definately somewhat MORE secure than the spring pin on sallets and Grand Bascinets, which are blown open in jousting with some regularity. the plates warp a lot under impact temporarily to then spring back into shape, simply lifting off the pin. but most helmets can be punched open by hand easily.
Thanks for the insight Arne. I hadn't considered the pure _indexing_ value of the spring pin before even though in retrospect it seems pretty obvious :)
Great video, 6:05 priceless. Anyway, i have two question, it was common for a conquistador to use full plate armor during the conquest of The Americas? i know that a lot of them only used a cuirass and a helment, and the less rich used the typical gambeson. And the spanish used full plate during the final years of the Reconquista?
Yes, the spanish used full plate armor in the later years of the Reconquista and even later. They even have a typical armor fashion, for example they liked big "navajas" (the round plates that protrude from elbows and knees, I don't know how it's in english) If you can read spanish or use google translate check out this blog: caballerosyarte.blogspot.com.es/ The first conquistadors ditched armor quite quickly. There were very few spaniards in the conquistador armies (the vast majority were allied native tribes). Gambesons are also very very hot for the area. This is an historical portrayal of their armament during the conquest of Mexico (XVIth century): scontent-bru2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/11390350_1637837989782472_3863649587973457821_n.jpg?oh=2ecef2b44fc151d47dffe6dc7c9f86c6&oe=59346FD5
The natives were deadly with their sticks and stones, I guess it makes sense to protect mainly the head, being the only place a stone can kill you directly. Perhaps the artist wanted to display too how the typical conquistador image (morions and rapiers) is not appropiate for the XVIth century. Their helmets were cabassets and sallets and their swords "espadas de patillas" (sideburn swords? straight swords with one or two finger rings) Shoes are a major problem for every army on the march as they just desintegrate, and it was very difficult to supply them, so they adopted many native customs (pieces of clothing, food, etc.)
The other issue with guarding the head is that it's often the first thing to get hit in melee combat - if you swing a sword in a downward arc (ie, the shot that pretty much everyone will open with by default), it'll pretty much hit your opponent in the head and/or front of the chest, first. It's just how the mechanics of human body/arm + long skinny weapon tend to work out. A such, the #1 thing to armor, if you have NOTHING else, is your head - then your upper torso. Also, when adrenaline hits, folks tend to aim for the head by default. (based on ~14 years worth of Escrima stick sparring).
Great video again. As already pointed out, I enjoyed you physically jumping around to backup your comments. You may have felt funny. But visually it added weight to your theorizing on the lack of locking mechanisms.
Ah OK, I live and reenact in the UK (early medieval) but I've done a few multi period shows but the medieval stuff displayed is usually setup in a tournament fashion. The jousts are always really impressive
@@KnyghtErrantFor modern reenactment fighting in harness, would you recommend the inclusion of a strap to keep the bascinet shut or do you find yourself managing without it?
Hi, I fully agree with you. Also, Matt Easton from Schola Gladiatoria mentioned in one of his videos, that some of 15th - 16th century archers ware equipped with helmets with visors (or even plate armor). For them it was important to be able to open/close visor ‘on demand’. Open for shooting, close for melee and so on. IMHO opening visor could also be used to catch your berth on the battlefield. We can see that often during the behourt/buhurt tournaments.
What I donto quickly open my sallet is: I place my thumb on the inner side of the visor and my index and middle finger on the external side of the sallet. I press the visor to the outer side with my thumb while pushing it towards the sky. Thats really quick. But as you said: most of the times I just push the sallet back so the segmented tail wil rest on my neck/ back. I can breathe extremely good, even under hard physical activities and while wearing a bevor.
I personally wear a klappvisor bascinet based on a mid to late 14th century example and can say that a really thight hinge is perfectly fine to keep even this kind of visor in place. In any situation.
It seems to me that the visors on most (combat, not tournament) helmets are primarily anti-arrow defenses, and are far too restrictive in terms of vision, hearing and breathing to be practical for use in hand-to-hand combat.
Its interesting to see how straps were sometimes replaced by wedges or iron wire in a tournament setting. I already suspected leather straps and buckles presented a vulnerability as it is mentioned that the rapier is not suited for cutting straps in Smyth's work. How likely is it that you can actually make a leather strap such as a chinstrap snap by force of arms?
I need to dig a little deeper to see if there are medieval accounts of straps being cut. It's hard to judge from a modern perspective because we never fight with sharps, which would present the biggest threat to a strap. I do see straps fail with some frequency at the Deeds I attend, but it's usually because the strap is toward the end of its life anyway. That being said, unless your targeting was dead on, a relatively new strap is pretty resilient. An old strap can be pretty brittle if not maintained, which might have been more common after long campaigns. There are accounts in tournament of people using weak thongs to lace their helmets on, presumably to ensure it snaps and the helmet flies off to prevent themselves being unhorsed, so that to me suggests a regular strap would be expected to hold fast under that impact.
Interesting point about sallets being half-helmets. I was wondering before if an advantage was the fact that as a half-faced visor, less of the face was revealed in opening it. Offering more protection in the open position too (with a bevor of course) compared to opened full-face visors. The fact you could wrench the whole helmet back too if needed wasn't something I considered but an interesting point. Of course the bevor (If a fixed bevor rather than collapsible) would get in the way of yelling orders, but then how many men-at-arms were expected to give orders and how many just had to follow them? For those that "followed" the option of peripheral vision, and better visibility would still be useful whilst reducing the drop in protection it would bring. Sallets are my favourite helmet personally, although the sparrow-beak armet is growing on me. As always thanks for the high-quality video and the terrific information you give whilst making it clear what is your (informed) opinion and what is directly from sources.
a lot of notes sais that soldiers lost their nose in combat so the visor thing was probably not super popular, however they survived but had to live without noses and stuff.
In regards to sport armour, I like to use modern sporting analogies, when explaining it to people. Like... how modern sport shooting rifles have aspects to them that make them better for sport than for combat, comparing a sport rifle to a combat rifle. Whilst an SA80A2 and a rifle used in a biathlon serve the same purpose - to fire a projectile over a distance accurately, the SA80A2 is more suited to warfare than a biathlon, which is inversely true for a biathlon rifle. Armour like jousting armour isn't combat armour, it's basically sports equipment.
Also, very interesting to see that armet with a hook using a strap to keep the entry/neck closed. A very nice proof that it's not lack of imagination about strapping technology that's keeping straps from holding down visors.
Guess it is the same reason that tank commanders often prefered to fight with an open hatch, such as Chieftain for example. Just to be able to see what the hell is going on around you. A similar situation is when a reporter manage to survive a close call but the photographer gets killed, lack of peripheral vision.
Unlike some RUclipsrs who hack it to make them have more views than they actually have, Ian does the opposite. He actually has three billion subscribers, as he should.
Its a pleasure to find your videos in the sub section. It be great if can educate about medival tactics and formations. How commanders aquried their commanding&tactical experience. were there military academies? roman tactics surviving guides or relying on own paticipation in battles.
I would also think the kind of kinetic impact capable to open an unlocked visor would not be nice to your neck if your visor were locked and held because it essentially would force your entire helmet+head back, looking up, at worst giving you whiplash while otherwise the visor gets kicked/slashed/punshed open and is still unlikely to harm you in that instant. In the case of the gorget I guess the locking might also work better as the gorget protecting your lower face would take anything coming with froce from downward so the locking pin would not often have to hold against more than a blow already glancing off that. I also don't think this kind of upward attack necessary to dislodge a visor would be very effective overall.
I would definitely have a look at the new book by Toby Capwell. Apparently many of the extant pieces lock by virtue of the hinge rivets being off centre.
Love the book, and that's what I'm describing at 6:46 It doesn't quite _lock_ it down in the sense that it can't be opened, it just prevents it from swinging open under gravity and movement.
Knyght Errant aha - should have waited - teach me to get all enthusiastic - either way, couldn't resist recommending that book! I found that this type of locking effect gives a "hold" that is susceptible to a tap with a gauntlet to close, and as you demonstrate, doesn't open on its own. Very practical for the kind of situation where you want it up for air most of the time, but need it closed at a moments notice. Anyway, really enjoying the channel!
Alex Moss Ian can only do a vid on equipment he can source a good (historically accurate) replica for. If you know anyone who might have one and is willing to lend it, maybe try to introduce them to each other?
since I do sport fighting I'm interested in meeting the safety rules of my particular sport. even though spring pin or strap and buckle are not historically accurate, I've considered putting a spring pin on my new basinet for mid 14 century kit. mainly because it seems like a less visually obtrusive way of holding the visor in place for the safety requirements. my thought being, if I need to make a compromise, let it be less obtrusive compromise. thoughts on this?
I've seen spring pins fail in practice, and I've never seen the strap method fail (with the caveat that since it's leather it _must_ be maintained). So if safety is the number one priority, my personal opinion (your mileage may vary of course) is that the strap is safer at doing its intended job. In fact, I've seen the pin fail both ways, no longer keeping the visor down _and_ making it almost impossible to get the visor open after someone was knocked down and desperately needing to breathe. The drawback to the strap is that in most cases you will need another person to help you open it.
good advice. my new helm is going to come with a removable faceplate. ....but not visored. I suspect there will be some sort of strap to hold the faceplate secure. I'll see how I make out with it. love all your videos and learn so much with everyone. kee p up the good work!
This is just my take on visors. in close combat a weapon being swung at you from an angle would be hard to react to due to limited peripheral vision, so I wonder if the visors were used as protection from arrows only?
You need to take in mind that unless your opponent is using a 2 metre crowbill that guy is not piercing a steel helmet set correctly on a suit of plate armor. So it is preferable to be hit on the helmet many times, than to open it and get hit once, but fatally
Do you think that a medieval Knight would view a modern HEMA mask as a viable alternative for battlefield use? Maybe with a few minor changes? Your statements in visibility, hearing and breathing ability just made me wonder that if HEMA style head protection was available back then it would be seen as worth wearing? Thanks for the great videos.
GunboatDiplomat you can break a Hema mask with a quarterstaff. You try to shoot it with some projectile or smash it with a Polearm and you're gonna tear to pieces the skull under the mask
Another point could be: if you opponent beat's you down and he need's to find out who you are (in order to kill you or spare you for ransom),it might be good idea to make it easy for him to open your visor. Even if he does not know your face (it's impossible to know everybody in enemmies army) it's much easier then to comunicate, so you can tell him who you actually are... Great video!!!
It's a very specialized helmet belonging to an armor attributed to Anton Peffenhauser designed exclusively for jousting. It's completely immobilized by being bolted to the breastplate. It's basically medieval sports equipment.
Thank you Ian. I can always count on you. May I just say you are by far my favourite historical RUclipsr? You just have something about you what makes me love your style.
I just found your channel today. I've watched almost all of your videos and gave a thumbs up to the ones I've watched. I'll watch the rest later. I'm into living history and do Saxon/Viking as well as 18th Century America. Anyway, How does one go to the bathroom in armor ? Serious question. I notice it's something no one talks about no matter the time period. Keep up the good work. Thanks
Welcome to the channel. Going #1 is no problem in armor, you just lift the mail skirt. #2 would require a little more time since you might have to loosen up the legs to go, but hopefully it's something you thought about beforehand. It wouldn't take you more than a couple minutes to get yourself into a state where you could squat and not soil your armor. Then again, in a real situation, you'd have this stuff on because you were about to need it, and if that's the case I'd bet a lot of people did what they had to do and worried about it later.
One major point I would like to add is that when afflicted with battle fatigue and adrenaline your fine motoring skills will simply not function. This is still a major concern for developers of modern armament intended to be used in war and would have been as important to consider back then. So undoing a knot, strap, pin or whatever would be almost physically impossible on the battlefield. Hence I would surely agree that a free visor would be the only proper choice for a men at arms of the time. I would like to add that hitting a visor is highly unlikely to open it since the force of the blow would need to be angled in such a way that it cohere with the angle that the visor is intended to open. If not the strike will simply glance off or it's direct enough that the force transmits to the victim.
First, I must say thank you for all your videos. I and friends enjoy them very much. It helps immensely with research. I do have a question for you: How common in your opinion would the use of the 3 fingered leather glove be in use for Clam Shell Gauntlets? I have been doing some searching and found them in various use for everyday clothing, but thought perhaps they would be practical in use for a Clam Shell design gauntlet. I have found no illumination reference yet, but I am still searching. Your thoughts?? Thank you again for all your hard work and very informative videos.
By clam shell gauntlet do you mean a rounded mitten gauntlet? A lot of what gets called a 'clamshell gauntlet' modernly is just a made up sport gauntlet. Here's a German style gauntlet with birfucated mail finger tips that uses a 3-finger style glove (inside - www.pinterest.com/pin/182325484890409125/) (outside - www.pinterest.com/pin/182325484890409143/) There is another gauntlet at the Bayerische Armeemuseum in Germany (A3300) that also has a bifurcated mail finger covering that may have been used with a 3-fingered glove design, no glove survives and the gauntlet is missing its thumb (www.pinterest.com/pin/182325484890410068/).
Yes, thank you very much. I was not sure if Clam Shell or Mitten Gauntlet was the proper name. I was thinking more along the lines of this. pin.it/hZqj3Jh But the examples you provided were also relevant. So the idea of using a 3 fingered leather glove in these gauntlet designs presented would seem to be a possible choice. Given that the 3 fingered glove would be easier to produce and within a design like these, it would feel more practical. Yet no strong surviving evidence supports definitively that this was a common idea or not. Would you agree?
If the gauntlet itself is not bifurcated, but just a standard mitten gauntlet, I would expect to see a mitten style glove on the inside as well like this (www.pinterest.com/pin/294845106837520157/), not necessarily a three fingered glove. Is there a particular reason you _want_ to use a three fingered glove inside a mitten gauntlet?
No particular reason other than while doing some research for a paper on the significance of the Hussite War, I came came across the 3 fingered glove design. I never new such a design existed. From there I chatted with some friends and classmates about how common such a design was in the medieval era and if in fact it was utilized in armor of the period. Since I was a subscriber to your channel, I thought maybe you would be able to offer some better insight. As a note I did come across this www.pinterest.com/pin/415246028128300536/ But I have not been able to identify the source yet. I am still looking and I appreciate your information and help that you have provided me.
That's a good detail on that painting. It _looks_ like it may have bifurcated mail fingers like the two examples I posted in my first reply just because I don't see any plates covering the fingers beyond the extended metacarpal plate that the artist has shown us, but it's hard to tell.
I recall there is a passage or little diary entry somewhere of a lord sticking a twig in his Bascinet to keep it open ill update the comment if i find that document good video
Great video Ian. You present a logical argument for why opening mechanisms would remain unobstructed. However, I'm curious if side and front mounted bascinets have a tight peen on the visor rivets so that it stays open when shoved into place? It would also seem logical that a loose visor would also be a detractor to situational awareness, if you have to keep a hand on it to keep it from falling. Any thoughts on this? I'm currently designing my own helm and trying to take everything into account.
Both a tight peen and slight misalignment seems to be the historical way to do it. Mine is simply a tight peen and it works very well to keep the visor both up and down. It's something that you can easily re-tighten over time if it works loose from wear.
High quality as usual! You said perceived benefits, so do you believe that the benefits are not real? Or have you not had experienced any occasion to indicate such or what?
By perceived benefits I mean that a lot of people simply assume that if you have a visor it should *never* be able to open in combat, and that direct protection is always better than indirect protection (a physical barrier to injury vs. the ability to see and avoid injury).
OK, I commented before finishing the video. I think latches would be the middle ground between securing the visor closed and allowing for a fast way to open it when needed.
Well, one suggestion that was made to me was that it's primary purpose is to simply keep the eye slot indexed to the proper spot without risk of it obscuring your vision. They almost appear to be more of a regional innovation and certainly not universal. People have a misconception that once it was invented they were on all sallets, when the truth is they were just on a fraction of sallets.
Greetings Knyght Errant! Can you please make a video about Mordhau? It's an excellent game about medieval combat. The dev team is raising funds via kickstarter this very moment and your coverage would be an enormous help. It really deserves peoples attention!
I love what you have been doing, I've watched all of your shows. I have a question for you (maybe an idea for a video!)- each time a tomb of a knight is depicted, he always has his feet on top of some sort of animal. Why? What does that represent? Thanks!
Hi, the animals acting as footrests usually serve their heraldic function in that a lion can represent courage and valor, or a dog can represent loyalty etc..
Good video as always. By the way do you know of any maker of 16th and 17th century armors, preferably in Europe? All the ones I know only make 14th and 15th century armors.
If anything, a mechanism to lock the visor in the UP position would make more sense. Then again, tighter hinges would make this a non-issue. Modern reproduction helmets should not have loose hinges.
Random question bur here we go. what we're medieval clothing sewn with? was it linnen threads even when they sewn in wool? or did they use wollen yarn then? sorry for the gramer (I'm Swedish)
Linen, wool and silk thread were all used to the best of my knowledge! Woolen yarn may not be strong enough for certain applications though where linen thread would be better (or silk) depending on the material being sewn, or the strength needed in the seam etc...
Could you do a video on how to replace helmet liners? Or can you just wear an arming cap and get around that part? Don't want to mess up my first real helm
On historical side pivoting visors this was accomplished in two ways: The first is that the rivets need to be nice and tight, and re-tightened over time as they loosen. The second and more interesting way is that it turns out a lot of historical side-pivoting visors do not have their pivots perfectly aligned. They're misaligned just enough that as the visor is raised toward the top, it imparts a bit of twist to the visor arms and essentially locks it into place at the top. It's debated as to whether or not that was intentional, but either way it works. Most modern reproductions don't reproduce that detail, but they really should.
Knyght Errant Very interesting stuff. I figured people fighting with it up just had to suck it up and accept the possibility that it would just drop sometimes. Thanks for responding!
Hey Ian. I had a question, which I'm not sure if you saw. I was trying to research triplex plate armour. An example of triplex plate armour was discovered and dated to the English Civil War of the Cavaliers and Roundheads at the Royal Armoury of Leeds. They even had a reproduction made by A Plaisance Armouries for a crossbow and musket proofing test, and an Ancient Discoveries documentary talks up the armour the best they can: watch?v=d3y NG8HT6rQ&f eature=youtu .be&t=24m56s I've broken up the link, as I think it has caused some trouble for my comments, in the past. I was wondering if you've heard anything about the armour, as I have found nothing about it beyond that example there. If you haven't, I'm not surprised, as there seems to be nothing on the subject and no one that knows more. Thank you for taking time to answer our questions.
Wow, that is fascinating stuff. (You're right about your comment by the way, sometimes RUclips automatically flags comments as spam if they contain links if they're not coming form the channel creator, and I will miss a lot of those). That is the first time I've seen that, and I know of no evidence for it being done in the medieval era (as it probably wasn't necessary yet), but I'm intrigued and will see if I can find out more. The example in the video was English Civil War, not Wars of the Roses, so 17th century.
Well, I came on just in time to find this. Whoops, my mistake. I'll fix my post before I confuse anyone else. As you say, this is really interesting tech, and I'd love to find out more about it. If you do find sources, it may be worth a post on the blog. You can come to a few theories about this. One possibility, is that we should just scan more armours for these kinds of secrets (maybe there's actually a lot of these?). With evidence, this isn't the sort of thing you can see in an illustration, and the technique may've been quite secretive for the smiths so that we'll have few writings. But, it can't have been too secret among smiths--you just need to examine your competitor's armour to get an idea something is odd. We could be looking at a very rare, and innovative technique. Alternatively, this might be a cool experiment that is less impressive than the proofing test makes it seem.
Lol my first google hit for the Days of knights shows a fight in which someone almost takes a sword through the face because his opponent stabs him in the face and the visor just flies upwards
I took that photo :) But that's not what actually happened. That helmet _has_ a visor lock on it, and Stan's sword tip got stuck in a spot that pried the visor up and over the locking pin, which had deformed.
I always thought kettle helmets would be one of the most versatile helmets ever made, just tilt your head down and your face is fully protected from arrows, no need for visors or anything like that.
He is one of the fighters who came out to Days of Knights this year. His harness is a less decorated version of the Wallace Collection A30 harness. The repro was made by Jeff Wasson.
I have a klappvisor and it straps behind the head, which is a huge problem, i usually go visorless. Are there any examples of open locking or stiffer to move klapps? Historical or modern? (Awesome channel btw, one of your patrons pointed me here, you'll get another soon)
i only like the visors on Sallets because of the advantages of the open face. if i was in a tournament i would use a true houndskull Bascinet like yours. i personally dont like heights so no on siting on a horse and jousting at high speeds is a HELL NO.
Later period helmets do have locks with more frequency, but it's still not a universal. It also depends on the specific helmet and its use. For a tournament helmet, a lock can be a good safety feature with little drawback. In a joust you know you're going to get hit, you only have to be in the helmet for a few minutes at a time, and you never have to quickly survey 'the battlefield,' so it's a non-issue. Some later field helmets also have visors that have multiple components. So you may be able to raise the upper visor to survey the field quickly, while leaving the lower visor that covers your nose and jaw locked down, so the lock in that case is less of a liability.
The original text is in Bod. Lib., Ashmole. MS. 856, art. 22, pp. 376-~83, a transcription printed in an 1840 text can be found here: tinyurl.com/zym3r62, (it's also transcribed in Ffoulkes) and a discussion of the passage can be found here: forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=168725
Dear Venerable LaSpina, since most knights were rich enough and had an entourage, sometimes called a lance, do you think that is was possible that the lack of locking mechanisms may be due to the fact that the knight had assistants helping him and protecting him, making a locking mechanism unnecessary? Just a thought. Awesome job again!!!
Are there any groups of armor smiths, possibly more specialized than ABANA, that you know of? I've been trying to find some in my area, but have been unable to so far.
Goof points. Yet for a mounted knight a visor lock could still be useful. Made mine in a way so it keeps the visor locked whether it's up or down, for the best of both worlds.
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Academy award for best actor goes to Ian LaSpina for his performance at 6:05
I felt like a moron filming that, but I figured it was a good way to illustrate my point, haha :)
It was a little goofy but it did a good job showing what you were talking about. Added a good laugh as well.
Don't feel like a moron, it looked great.
It really did look great. Completely believable. Your facial expression and mouth movements looked great.
felt like a moron? that part looked badass!
Best medieval armour channel on RUclips, by some way.
Thank you sir!
You should do more of those small illustrative bits like 6:05, where we see the armor in action. I don't actually think it looked that silly. Lindybeige does this a lot, and it really helps illustrating his points. It would be equally useful for the more serious stuff like your videos.
Lindybeige is the youtuber version of your goofy history professor in college.
@@IanSumallo not wrong
i really liked the scene at 6.05 where you show how drasticly the movement would be . Your videos are of really high quality !
I wanted to add something .
For a burgonet ( south germany , 1520-30 ) it consists of of 3 pieces a movable of needed . ( like the face protection of a sallet ) . In a manuscript it even shows a landsknecht screaming with a pulled down
burgonet faceplate .
Thank you! I felt like an idiot making that part, but I thought it illustrated the point pretty well :)
Knyght Errant It sure came out of nowhere. I had my own "wait, what?" moment when that scene showed up, especially since you just kept on doing your monologue without even referring to yourself doing it like you normally would when demonstrating stuff. Lol.
Knyght Errant it was amazing and really illustrated your point. And even though it was just a demonstration you looked completely believable. Well done!
It was awesome. Someone should make a GIF of it :)
Your videos often feel like a collage level lecture, Always amazing quality.
As always, your content is great Ian, i especially liked your acting at 6:05 and no, you didn't look like an idiot it was truly impresive and it demonstrated very well what you were explaining.
Thank you!
Someone needs to make a sped up GIF of Ian showing how the visor would not magically swing open at 6:30, make it look like he is headbanging XD
This is pretty late, but the gif thumbnail might be what you're looking for
i.ytimg.com/an_webp/tDkB-zMUf7k/mqdefault_6s.webp?du=3000&sqp=COGezvUF&rs=AOn4CLAq-WoP-86ImBpYqQXlqQrjhdn9CA
For years, I fought in a close helm variant of a Sallet (in which the bevor and "top" were one piece and the helm operated much more like an armet that the traditional sallet and bevor). The pivoting visor, and a pivoting plate on the bevor were both held "in the closed position" by sprung pins. In the case of the visor, it also had a hook that closed into the pin.
I found that experience in getting the helmet open and/or off really told. Even when I was still wearing gauntlets, after a while, I "knew" exactly where the pins (and the hook) were, and could manipulate them pretty quickly and easily. I bought the helmet new and it also got easier over time as the pins wore in.
However:
- No way was it as easy to do so as it would have been if the pins had not been there. It always to a couple of seconds to open, and more than that to close (especially the hook through the visor pin, and the pin in the bevor).
- Closing and securing the visor and bevor was a slower and much more tedious process than popping the pins and opening them.
- I could see someone, on the battlefield, opening the visor (even a pinned and/or hooked one) easily, then just slapping the visor down into place if pressed for time, ignoring the hook. The pin would keep it secure most of the time. Indeed, once or twice, I inadvertently went into combat without having secured the hook, and never had a problem with the visor.
- I also found that my visor would stay open when raised, even while running and hopping around. Not sure if this was due to the tightness of the pivots, or that they were placed slightly off, as I never thought to check. But certainly, the visor had no tendency to fall down on its own or flop around.
I used a very similar setup. The only difference was that the lower plate that lifted up and locked on the bevor did not exist on mine. Instead, the visor was longer to compensate. I went through 3 metal spring visor locks within 6 months before switching to plastic. The steel spring ones would snap in combat. The plastic one lasted until I couldn't fight anymore, around a decade after putting the plastic spring in. :) I made fingered gauntlets and never really had any issues. Of course, I could roll and smoke a cigarette in them, so...
That's some nuance that's really interesting. thanks for the video, Ian.
You're welcome! Glad you enjoyed it.
The scene at 6:05 was good. It gave inspiration for my own set of armor !Keep up the great work !
Toby Capwell has also suggested that asymmetric positioning of the hinges on bascinets allowed the visors to be wedged up or down without the use of a spring or other picking mechanism. Sure, someone could still push your visor open in a fight, but at least there was some resistance and it took a deliberate act, rather than a chance blow, to push a visor open. (He discusses this with Matt Easton in a video on Scholagladiatoria Channel).
sallets can have very narrow vision slits, thereby nessesitating indexing the visor with the spring pin. especially if the visor is made well the pin will snap into place also when the visor comes down unintentionally (horse might jump a bit more actively, and the visor might fall down, for instance)
manipulating the spring pin with a gauntlet is fairly easily done
the hook and pin arrangement is definately somewhat MORE secure than the spring pin on sallets and Grand Bascinets, which are blown open in jousting with some regularity. the plates warp a lot under impact temporarily to then spring back into shape, simply lifting off the pin. but most helmets can be punched open by hand easily.
Thanks for the insight Arne. I hadn't considered the pure _indexing_ value of the spring pin before even though in retrospect it seems pretty obvious :)
What does it mean to index a visor?
+Ben Richardson essentially to ensure that the sights line up in exactly the right position with your eyes every time and stay there.
Great video, 6:05 priceless. Anyway, i have two question, it was common for a conquistador to use full plate armor during the conquest of The Americas? i know that a lot of them only used a cuirass and a helment, and the less rich used the typical gambeson. And the spanish used full plate during the final years of the Reconquista?
Some did abandoned plate armor in favor of the Aztec cotton padded armor. It was lighter and less likely to cook you when wearing it .
Yes, the spanish used full plate armor in the later years of the Reconquista and even later. They even have a typical armor fashion, for example they liked big "navajas" (the round plates that protrude from elbows and knees, I don't know how it's in english)
If you can read spanish or use google translate check out this blog:
caballerosyarte.blogspot.com.es/
The first conquistadors ditched armor quite quickly. There were very few spaniards in the conquistador armies (the vast majority were allied native tribes). Gambesons are also very very hot for the area.
This is an historical portrayal of their armament during the conquest of Mexico (XVIth century): scontent-bru2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/11390350_1637837989782472_3863649587973457821_n.jpg?oh=2ecef2b44fc151d47dffe6dc7c9f86c6&oe=59346FD5
Klavak Khazga so basically Shorts and flip Flops. interresting tho that they still wore as much head protection as possible
The natives were deadly with their sticks and stones, I guess it makes sense to protect mainly the head, being the only place a stone can kill you directly. Perhaps the artist wanted to display too how the typical conquistador image (morions and rapiers) is not appropiate for the XVIth century. Their helmets were cabassets and sallets and their swords "espadas de patillas" (sideburn swords? straight swords with one or two finger rings)
Shoes are a major problem for every army on the march as they just desintegrate, and it was very difficult to supply them, so they adopted many native customs (pieces of clothing, food, etc.)
The other issue with guarding the head is that it's often the first thing to get hit in melee combat - if you swing a sword in a downward arc (ie, the shot that pretty much everyone will open with by default), it'll pretty much hit your opponent in the head and/or front of the chest, first. It's just how the mechanics of human body/arm + long skinny weapon tend to work out. A such, the #1 thing to armor, if you have NOTHING else, is your head - then your upper torso.
Also, when adrenaline hits, folks tend to aim for the head by default. (based on ~14 years worth of Escrima stick sparring).
Great video again. As already pointed out, I enjoyed you physically jumping around to backup your comments. You may have felt funny. But visually it added weight to your theorizing on the lack of locking mechanisms.
When you re-enact martially with your group is it large scale warfare or much smaller such as the tournaments? Fantastic information as always
Mostly small scale.
Ah OK, I live and reenact in the UK (early medieval) but I've done a few multi period shows but the medieval stuff displayed is usually setup in a tournament fashion. The jousts are always really impressive
@@KnyghtErrantFor modern reenactment fighting in harness, would you recommend the inclusion of a strap to keep the bascinet shut or do you find yourself managing without it?
I would imagine soldier would open the visor every moment they can to take a breath, and to take better look at the current situation
Here is someone how deserve a lot more subscribers then he already has
Hi,
I fully agree with you. Also, Matt Easton from Schola Gladiatoria mentioned in one of his videos, that some of 15th - 16th century archers ware equipped with helmets with visors (or even plate armor). For them it was important to be able to open/close visor ‘on demand’. Open for shooting, close for melee and so on. IMHO opening visor could also be used to catch your berth on the battlefield. We can see that often during the behourt/buhurt tournaments.
What I donto quickly open my sallet is: I place my thumb on the inner side of the visor and my index and middle finger on the external side of the sallet. I press the visor to the outer side with my thumb while pushing it towards the sky. Thats really quick. But as you said: most of the times I just push the sallet back so the segmented tail wil rest on my neck/ back. I can breathe extremely good, even under hard physical activities and while wearing a bevor.
A great presentation as always!
So did the man-at-arms at 6:05 forget to pack a Cuirass?
Sylvester Graham no, it watched game theory and so it disintegrated from touching salt leaving him with only gambeson
That's me unable to get in my cuirass when I'm filming by myself... :) I figured the aketon was better than a t-shirt.
well, he seems to be looking for it.
I personally wear a klappvisor bascinet based on a mid to late 14th century example and can say that a really thight hinge is perfectly fine to keep even this kind of visor in place. In any situation.
It seems to me that the visors on most (combat, not tournament) helmets are primarily anti-arrow defenses, and are far too restrictive in terms of vision, hearing and breathing to be practical for use in hand-to-hand combat.
Its interesting to see how straps were sometimes replaced by wedges or iron wire in a tournament setting. I already suspected leather straps and buckles presented a vulnerability as it is mentioned that the rapier is not suited for cutting straps in Smyth's work. How likely is it that you can actually make a leather strap such as a chinstrap snap by force of arms?
I need to dig a little deeper to see if there are medieval accounts of straps being cut. It's hard to judge from a modern perspective because we never fight with sharps, which would present the biggest threat to a strap. I do see straps fail with some frequency at the Deeds I attend, but it's usually because the strap is toward the end of its life anyway. That being said, unless your targeting was dead on, a relatively new strap is pretty resilient. An old strap can be pretty brittle if not maintained, which might have been more common after long campaigns. There are accounts in tournament of people using weak thongs to lace their helmets on, presumably to ensure it snaps and the helmet flies off to prevent themselves being unhorsed, so that to me suggests a regular strap would be expected to hold fast under that impact.
I was curious if visor locks were a thing. Not a lot of information on them on the internet that I can find. Thank you.
Interesting point about sallets being half-helmets. I was wondering before if an advantage was the fact that as a half-faced visor, less of the face was revealed in opening it. Offering more protection in the open position too (with a bevor of course) compared to opened full-face visors. The fact you could wrench the whole helmet back too if needed wasn't something I considered but an interesting point. Of course the bevor (If a fixed bevor rather than collapsible) would get in the way of yelling orders, but then how many men-at-arms were expected to give orders and how many just had to follow them? For those that "followed" the option of peripheral vision, and better visibility would still be useful whilst reducing the drop in protection it would bring. Sallets are my favourite helmet personally, although the sparrow-beak armet is growing on me.
As always thanks for the high-quality video and the terrific information you give whilst making it clear what is your (informed) opinion and what is directly from sources.
a lot of notes sais that soldiers lost their nose in combat so the visor thing was probably not super popular, however they survived but had to live without noses and stuff.
In regards to sport armour, I like to use modern sporting analogies, when explaining it to people. Like... how modern sport shooting rifles have aspects to them that make them better for sport than for combat, comparing a sport rifle to a combat rifle. Whilst an SA80A2 and a rifle used in a biathlon serve the same purpose - to fire a projectile over a distance accurately, the SA80A2 is more suited to warfare than a biathlon, which is inversely true for a biathlon rifle.
Armour like jousting armour isn't combat armour, it's basically sports equipment.
Good analogy, I may steal that from you for living history shows :)
I've wondered, what is that disk sticking out of the back of some armets for? Such as seen at 1:21.
for attaching additional throat protection
MalletMann It's called a roundel. Go check out Ian's video on the Armet where he goes to great lengths explaining what it is and what it's for.
MalletMann it's a rondel for securing the wrapper plate.
Also, very interesting to see that armet with a hook using a strap to keep the entry/neck closed. A very nice proof that it's not lack of imagination about strapping technology that's keeping straps from holding down visors.
Guess it is the same reason that tank commanders often prefered to fight with an open hatch, such as Chieftain for example. Just to be able to see what the hell is going on around you. A similar situation is when a reporter manage to survive a close call but the photographer gets killed, lack of peripheral vision.
Unlike some RUclipsrs who hack it to make them have more views than they actually have, Ian does the opposite. He actually has three billion subscribers, as he should.
I didn't want PewDiePie to feel inadequate... ;)
Its a pleasure to find your videos in the sub section. It be great if can educate about medival tactics and formations. How commanders aquried their commanding&tactical experience. were there military academies? roman tactics surviving guides or relying on own paticipation in battles.
I would also think the kind of kinetic impact capable to open an unlocked visor would not be nice to your neck if your visor were locked and held because it essentially would force your entire helmet+head back, looking up, at worst giving you whiplash while otherwise the visor gets kicked/slashed/punshed open and is still unlikely to harm you in that instant. In the case of the gorget I guess the locking might also work better as the gorget protecting your lower face would take anything coming with froce from downward so the locking pin would not often have to hold against more than a blow already glancing off that.
I also don't think this kind of upward attack necessary to dislodge a visor would be very effective overall.
incredible videos! you make the best informative ones.
I would definitely have a look at the new book by Toby Capwell. Apparently many of the extant pieces lock by virtue of the hinge rivets being off centre.
Love the book, and that's what I'm describing at 6:46 It doesn't quite _lock_ it down in the sense that it can't be opened, it just prevents it from swinging open under gravity and movement.
Knyght Errant aha - should have waited - teach me to get all enthusiastic - either way, couldn't resist recommending that book!
I found that this type of locking effect gives a "hold" that is susceptible to a tap with a gauntlet to close, and as you demonstrate, doesn't open on its own. Very practical for the kind of situation where you want it up for air most of the time, but need it closed at a moments notice.
Anyway, really enjoying the channel!
its funny i never know im interested in these topics until you start discussing it so good job with that
New subscriber, really great informative video :)
Thank you! Welcome to the channel!
Chilly you are now a man at arms
Ah I miss this channel
Great video, as always! Could you do one on close helms?
Alex Moss Ian can only do a vid on equipment he can source a good (historically accurate) replica for. If you know anyone who might have one and is willing to lend it, maybe try to introduce them to each other?
since I do sport fighting I'm interested in meeting the safety rules of my particular sport. even though spring pin or strap and buckle are not historically accurate, I've considered putting a spring pin on my new basinet for mid 14 century kit. mainly because it seems like a less visually obtrusive way of holding the visor in place for the safety requirements. my thought being, if I need to make a compromise, let it be less obtrusive compromise. thoughts on this?
I've seen spring pins fail in practice, and I've never seen the strap method fail (with the caveat that since it's leather it _must_ be maintained). So if safety is the number one priority, my personal opinion (your mileage may vary of course) is that the strap is safer at doing its intended job. In fact, I've seen the pin fail both ways, no longer keeping the visor down _and_ making it almost impossible to get the visor open after someone was knocked down and desperately needing to breathe. The drawback to the strap is that in most cases you will need another person to help you open it.
good advice. my new helm is going to come with a removable faceplate. ....but not visored. I suspect there will be some sort of strap to hold the faceplate secure. I'll see how I make out with it. love all your videos and learn so much with everyone. kee
p up the good work!
This is just my take on visors. in close combat a weapon being swung at you from an angle would be hard to react to due to limited peripheral vision, so I wonder if the visors were used as protection from arrows only?
You need to take in mind that unless your opponent is using a 2 metre crowbill that guy is not piercing a steel helmet set correctly on a suit of plate armor. So it is preferable to be hit on the helmet many times, than to open it and get hit once, but fatally
10/10 acting skills
Do you think that a medieval Knight would view a modern HEMA mask as a viable alternative for battlefield use? Maybe with a few minor changes? Your statements in visibility, hearing and breathing ability just made me wonder that if HEMA style head protection was available back then it would be seen as worth wearing? Thanks for the great videos.
GunboatDiplomat you can break a Hema mask with a quarterstaff. You try to shoot it with some projectile or smash it with a Polearm and you're gonna tear to pieces the skull under the mask
Another point could be: if you opponent beat's you down and he need's to find out who you are (in order to kill you or spare you for ransom),it might be good idea to make it easy for him to open your visor. Even if he does not know your face (it's impossible to know everybody in enemmies army) it's much easier then to comunicate, so you can tell him who you actually are...
Great video!!!
Very good video as always! Will we be seeing a video of the gambeson and its evolution to the thinner armingdublet any time soon?
At 3:07, what helm is that? It looks like a unique armet. I am in love with it.
It's a very specialized helmet belonging to an armor attributed to Anton Peffenhauser designed exclusively for jousting. It's completely immobilized by being bolted to the breastplate. It's basically medieval sports equipment.
Thank you Ian. I can always count on you. May I just say you are by far my favourite historical RUclipsr? You just have something about you what makes me love your style.
Thank you very much!!
Not a problem! Always a pleasure watching your content!
when i fight i usually lift the visor to take a peak in left and right.And its priceless.
Your beard is so long now!
I just found your channel today. I've watched almost all of your videos and gave a thumbs up to the ones I've watched. I'll watch the rest later. I'm into living history and do Saxon/Viking as well as 18th Century America. Anyway, How does one go to the bathroom in armor ? Serious question. I notice it's something no one talks about no matter the time period. Keep up the good work. Thanks
Welcome to the channel. Going #1 is no problem in armor, you just lift the mail skirt. #2 would require a little more time since you might have to loosen up the legs to go, but hopefully it's something you thought about beforehand. It wouldn't take you more than a couple minutes to get yourself into a state where you could squat and not soil your armor. Then again, in a real situation, you'd have this stuff on because you were about to need it, and if that's the case I'd bet a lot of people did what they had to do and worried about it later.
One major point I would like to add is that when afflicted with battle fatigue and adrenaline your fine motoring skills will simply not function. This is still a major concern for developers of modern armament intended to be used in war and would have been as important to consider back then.
So undoing a knot, strap, pin or whatever would be almost physically impossible on the battlefield.
Hence I would surely agree that a free visor would be the only proper choice for a men at arms of the time.
I would like to add that hitting a visor is highly unlikely to open it since the force of the blow would need to be angled in such a way that it cohere with the angle that the visor is intended to open. If not the strike will simply glance off or it's direct enough that the force transmits to the victim.
If I agree with mostly of what you say, the fact that there were armourer close to the battlefield is sourced.
Very interesting thought.
Dang I love this channel
First, I must say thank you for all your videos. I and friends enjoy them very much. It helps immensely with research. I do have a question for you: How common in your opinion would the use of the 3 fingered leather glove be in use for Clam Shell Gauntlets? I have been doing some searching and found them in various use for everyday clothing, but thought perhaps they would be practical in use for a Clam Shell design gauntlet. I have found no illumination reference yet, but I am still searching. Your thoughts?? Thank you again for all your hard work and very informative videos.
By clam shell gauntlet do you mean a rounded mitten gauntlet? A lot of what gets called a 'clamshell gauntlet' modernly is just a made up sport gauntlet. Here's a German style gauntlet with birfucated mail finger tips that uses a 3-finger style glove (inside - www.pinterest.com/pin/182325484890409125/) (outside - www.pinterest.com/pin/182325484890409143/)
There is another gauntlet at the Bayerische Armeemuseum in Germany (A3300) that also has a bifurcated mail finger covering that may have been used with a 3-fingered glove design, no glove survives and the gauntlet is missing its thumb (www.pinterest.com/pin/182325484890410068/).
Yes, thank you very much. I was not sure if Clam Shell or Mitten Gauntlet was the proper name. I was thinking more along the lines of this. pin.it/hZqj3Jh
But the examples you provided were also relevant. So the idea of using a 3 fingered leather glove in these gauntlet designs presented would seem to be a possible choice. Given that the 3 fingered glove would be easier to produce and within a design like these, it would feel more practical. Yet no strong surviving evidence supports definitively that this was a common idea or not. Would you agree?
If the gauntlet itself is not bifurcated, but just a standard mitten gauntlet, I would expect to see a mitten style glove on the inside as well like this (www.pinterest.com/pin/294845106837520157/), not necessarily a three fingered glove. Is there a particular reason you _want_ to use a three fingered glove inside a mitten gauntlet?
No particular reason other than while doing some research for a paper on the significance of the Hussite War, I came came across the 3 fingered glove design. I never new such a design existed. From there I chatted with some friends and classmates about how common such a design was in the medieval era and if in fact it was utilized in armor of the period. Since I was a subscriber to your channel, I thought maybe you would be able to offer some better insight. As a note I did come across this www.pinterest.com/pin/415246028128300536/ But I have not been able to identify the source yet. I am still looking and I appreciate your information and help that you have provided me.
That's a good detail on that painting. It _looks_ like it may have bifurcated mail fingers like the two examples I posted in my first reply just because I don't see any plates covering the fingers beyond the extended metacarpal plate that the artist has shown us, but it's hard to tell.
I recall there is a passage or little diary entry somewhere of a lord sticking a twig in his Bascinet to keep it open ill update the comment if i find that document good video
Someone please make a gif of 6:04
Great video Ian. You present a logical argument for why opening mechanisms would remain unobstructed. However, I'm curious if side and front mounted bascinets have a tight peen on the visor rivets so that it stays open when shoved into place? It would also seem logical that a loose visor would also be a detractor to situational awareness, if you have to keep a hand on it to keep it from falling. Any thoughts on this? I'm currently designing my own helm and trying to take everything into account.
Both a tight peen and slight misalignment seems to be the historical way to do it. Mine is simply a tight peen and it works very well to keep the visor both up and down. It's something that you can easily re-tighten over time if it works loose from wear.
Very good vid Ian. I concur!
To summarize; and guys don't you forget.The most important thing, is being able to get it up when you need it to. 8:33
High quality as usual! You said perceived benefits, so do you believe that the benefits are not real? Or have you not had experienced any occasion to indicate such or what?
By perceived benefits I mean that a lot of people simply assume that if you have a visor it should *never* be able to open in combat, and that direct protection is always better than indirect protection (a physical barrier to injury vs. the ability to see and avoid injury).
Another great video but can you make a series about mail armour or tournament and jousting armour
How about a simple latch at either side of the visor, just to prevent enemies from potentially lifting the visor to attack the face?
OK, I commented before finishing the video. I think latches would be the middle ground between securing the visor closed and allowing for a fast way to open it when needed.
This begs the question, why were the spring pin added to sallet in the first place? Make your eye protection isn't knocked open involuntarily?
Well, one suggestion that was made to me was that it's primary purpose is to simply keep the eye slot indexed to the proper spot without risk of it obscuring your vision. They almost appear to be more of a regional innovation and certainly not universal. People have a misconception that once it was invented they were on all sallets, when the truth is they were just on a fraction of sallets.
I want someone to superimpose 6:05 into a epic movie battle
What about possibly having spring tension to keep the visor closed when you need it to be? Would this be wise?
Greetings Knyght Errant!
Can you please make a video about Mordhau?
It's an excellent game about medieval combat. The dev team is raising
funds via kickstarter this very moment and your coverage would be an
enormous help. It really deserves peoples attention!
Are there any examples of later period helmets such as armets and close helmets without visor locks?
I love what you have been doing, I've watched all of your shows. I have a question for you (maybe an idea for a video!)- each time a tomb of a knight is depicted, he always has his feet on top of some sort of animal. Why? What does that represent? Thanks!
Hi, the animals acting as footrests usually serve their heraldic function in that a lion can represent courage and valor, or a dog can represent loyalty etc..
Btw how's that new harness going?
Still waiting for the cuirass, there was a bit of a delay, but it should be finished up very shortly.
Was Shrek's armor in Shrek 1 accurate? The part when he saves princess fiona from a tower
Ian we must know
It wouldn't matter if it was, as no mortal weapon would dare attack our Ogrelord.
Good video as always.
By the way do you know of any maker of 16th and 17th century armors, preferably in Europe?
All the ones I know only make 14th and 15th century armors.
If anything, a mechanism to lock the visor in the UP position would make more sense. Then again, tighter hinges would make this a non-issue.
Modern reproduction helmets should not have loose hinges.
I was wondering were u can get ur own custom made armor from just to fit your own body? Can u help
Random question bur here we go. what we're medieval clothing sewn with? was it linnen threads even when they sewn in wool? or did they use wollen yarn then?
sorry for the gramer (I'm Swedish)
Linen, wool and silk thread were all used to the best of my knowledge! Woolen yarn may not be strong enough for certain applications though where linen thread would be better (or silk) depending on the material being sewn, or the strength needed in the seam etc...
Knyght Errant Thank you for your answer! The more I know
Good points!
Well as You said locked visor is much a today thing especially when it comes to sport combat.
Could you do a video on how to replace helmet liners? Or can you just wear an arming cap and get around that part? Don't want to mess up my first real helm
I show some of the process in a blog post on the website. This may be helpful: knyghterrant.com/index.php/2016/08/31/deep-bascinet-maintenance/
Knyght Errant thanks! You can't stick a helm in the washing machine so this is a big help have a good one
No problem!
I'm actually curious about the opposite. How do they stay UP, when the visor is raised? Wouldn't it drop back down a lot in combat back then?
On historical side pivoting visors this was accomplished in two ways: The first is that the rivets need to be nice and tight, and re-tightened over time as they loosen. The second and more interesting way is that it turns out a lot of historical side-pivoting visors do not have their pivots perfectly aligned. They're misaligned just enough that as the visor is raised toward the top, it imparts a bit of twist to the visor arms and essentially locks it into place at the top. It's debated as to whether or not that was intentional, but either way it works. Most modern reproductions don't reproduce that detail, but they really should.
Knyght Errant Very interesting stuff. I figured people fighting with it up just had to suck it up and accept the possibility that it would just drop sometimes. Thanks for responding!
Hey Ian. I had a question, which I'm not sure if you saw. I was trying to research triplex plate armour.
An example of triplex plate armour was discovered and dated to the English Civil War of the Cavaliers and Roundheads at the Royal Armoury of Leeds.
They even had a reproduction made by A Plaisance Armouries for a crossbow and musket proofing test, and an Ancient Discoveries documentary talks up the armour the best they can:
watch?v=d3y
NG8HT6rQ&f
eature=youtu
.be&t=24m56s
I've broken up the link, as I think it has caused some trouble for my comments, in the past.
I was wondering if you've heard anything about the armour, as I have found nothing about it beyond that example there. If you haven't, I'm not surprised, as there seems to be nothing on the subject and no one that knows more.
Thank you for taking time to answer our questions.
Wow, that is fascinating stuff. (You're right about your comment by the way, sometimes RUclips automatically flags comments as spam if they contain links if they're not coming form the channel creator, and I will miss a lot of those). That is the first time I've seen that, and I know of no evidence for it being done in the medieval era (as it probably wasn't necessary yet), but I'm intrigued and will see if I can find out more. The example in the video was English Civil War, not Wars of the Roses, so 17th century.
Well, I came on just in time to find this.
Whoops, my mistake. I'll fix my post before I confuse anyone else.
As you say, this is really interesting tech, and I'd love to find out more about it. If you do find sources, it may be worth a post on the blog.
You can come to a few theories about this. One possibility, is that we should just scan more armours for these kinds of secrets (maybe there's actually a lot of these?). With evidence, this isn't the sort of thing you can see in an illustration, and the technique may've been quite secretive for the smiths so that we'll have few writings. But, it can't have been too secret among smiths--you just need to examine your competitor's armour to get an idea something is odd.
We could be looking at a very rare, and innovative technique. Alternatively, this might be a cool experiment that is less impressive than the proofing test makes it seem.
Last time I came this early it was the 15th century
Lol my first google hit for the Days of knights shows a fight in which someone almost takes a sword through the face because his opponent stabs him in the face and the visor just flies upwards
I took that photo :) But that's not what actually happened. That helmet _has_ a visor lock on it, and Stan's sword tip got stuck in a spot that pried the visor up and over the locking pin, which had deformed.
I always thought kettle helmets would be one of the most versatile helmets ever made, just tilt your head down and your face is fully protected from arrows, no need for visors or anything like that.
6:05 how airwingers give orders lol
Who's armour is that with the absolutely gorgeous close-helm? Looks to be a picture from days-of-knights?
He is one of the fighters who came out to Days of Knights this year. His harness is a less decorated version of the Wallace Collection A30 harness. The repro was made by Jeff Wasson.
I have a question, were Klappvisiers ever locked into place? The design seems like it would be very easy to come open in a fight.
There is nothing to suggest that they were.
I have a klappvisor and it straps behind the head, which is a huge problem, i usually go visorless. Are there any examples of open locking or stiffer to move klapps? Historical or modern? (Awesome channel btw, one of your patrons pointed me here, you'll get another soon)
I have a friend who claustrophobic, he can't wear closet helmets. Should he use a sallet or an opened bascinet?
An open faced helmet would feel a lot less claustrophobic than anything with a visor. There are open-faced sallets as well.
i only like the visors on Sallets because of the advantages of the open face. if i was in a tournament i would use a true houndskull Bascinet like yours. i personally dont like heights so no on siting on a horse and jousting at high speeds is a HELL NO.
Great video! Thanks a lot!
Were there any locks to keep a visor up?
I assume later period Knights also didn't rely on locks on their helmets
Later period helmets do have locks with more frequency, but it's still not a universal. It also depends on the specific helmet and its use. For a tournament helmet, a lock can be a good safety feature with little drawback. In a joust you know you're going to get hit, you only have to be in the helmet for a few minutes at a time, and you never have to quickly survey 'the battlefield,' so it's a non-issue. Some later field helmets also have visors that have multiple components. So you may be able to raise the upper visor to survey the field quickly, while leaving the lower visor that covers your nose and jaw locked down, so the lock in that case is less of a liability.
hey Ian,
I'm wondering if you know where I can see the images or reference for the judicial duel armour pins?
The original text is in Bod. Lib., Ashmole. MS. 856, art. 22, pp. 376-~83, a transcription printed in an 1840 text can be found here: tinyurl.com/zym3r62, (it's also transcribed in Ffoulkes) and a discussion of the passage can be found here: forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=168725
Knyght Errant thank you!
If I go back in time, I shall bring with me lots of duct tape.
u r great man! every time!
That's mighty interesting!
Knyght Errant I always wondered where did you get your visor helmet?
Dear Venerable LaSpina, since most knights were rich enough and had an entourage, sometimes called a lance, do you think that is was possible that the lack of locking mechanisms may be due to the fact that the knight had assistants helping him and protecting him, making a locking mechanism unnecessary? Just a thought. Awesome job again!!!
I saw on your pinterest a collection of images of this venetian great bascinet and thought it looked interesting. Are you ever going to talk about it?
+basil B I've talked a little bit about then in 2 other videos but they don't have their own video yet. Maybe in the future.
Do you think a turning lock like the one on your sabatons be used on each side of the visor to hold it in place?
Modernly? I don't see why not. If it gets deformed though, it would be pretty challenging to get the visor up.
Are there any groups of armor smiths, possibly more specialized than ABANA, that you know of? I've been trying to find some in my area, but have been unable to so far.
Goof points. Yet for a mounted knight a visor lock could still be useful. Made mine in a way so it keeps the visor locked whether it's up or down, for the best of both worlds.