AimJunkie: Use our cheat offline Destiny 2: An online game Thats already a red flag for me, chief. I feel like the judges are just a bunch of boomers that doesnt understand how technology works
Must have made a ton of money from players who paid them for their cheating software. Just imagine the lawyer bills and that's before the actual lawsuit, jury etc.
Bungie: cheating is against tos, so we are suing. Cheat suppliers: thats not illegal. It just their tos. Cheat suppliers: so we think they broke our tos so we are suing.
yeah, and I'll not be surprise that judge will be on Cheat suppliers side, the judge that was in the first lawsuit was such an idiot to take their side.
@@di11onm1nkgamingin order to make the cheats they need to know the inner workings of the engine destiny runs on, therefore they need the hard code of the game, that which by distributing, reverse engineering, or even viewing is against TOS
Basically Aimjunkie is countersuing for something Aimjunkie did in the first place in order to make compatible cheats for Destiny 2. This is really stupid on Aimjunkie's part because their countersuit admits to the fact that they violated Bungie's terms of service in order to create cheats for Destiny 2. Aimjunkie is the aggressor as pertains to the whole cheating issue and Bungie's response is reactionary. By violating Bungie's terms of service in the first place, it pretty much opens the door for Bungie to go on the offensive to do what is necessary to stop the cheating. Technically Bungie can treat the hacking software as though it is a virus and apply countermeasures to clean their system. To defeat the cheat code they have to be able to break it down in order to figure out how to block it to keep it from further infecting their system.
Sort of. This claim holds power since Bungie doesn't say you cannot look at the code of the game anywhere in the user agreements. This opens the door for a group like aimjunkies to examine and look at the code. On the flip side, in order to download, use or purchase their software, aimjunkies requires you to agree to not look at the code. In order for aimjunkies to create it, they had to use Bungie's code, but it wasn't against any user agreement. In order for Bungie to be able to detect Aimjunkies cheats, they had to reverse engineer their software which did break Aimjunkies user agreement. This is honestly a clear win for Aimjunkies from a legal perspective IF the judge can understand what all of this means.
@@chumbaman777 I’ll miss playing on PC then, but playing on console isn’t all that bad. Just wish I could of kept playing pc, oh well I guess. Can’t play it if the hackers won’t let you
@@chumbaman777 well it might be not against bungies tos but still aimjunkie started they wanted to fight. its just like a guy running to you and punching you in the face but you eventually winning now can the first guy go to court and win? why because he did start it he wanted to fight now you have to live with the consequences of that. and aimjunkies did hurt the reputation of bungie. and maybe it is ok to look at destiny 2 code but what isn't ok is making cheats for the game and selling them and even if bungie reversed the cheats just because they say that there not responsible for the things the cheats do doesn't make it true the. if bungie doesn't win this someone is payed from the cheatmaker they already showed the willing to do everthing to get what they want why would they stop now. if i would be the judge if wouldn't even heard what they said becauase i would make the lose everthing you can't trust those guys a single word. and if bungie has to look at porsonal data to make their game safer ok make it. they would all go to prision for the exact the time there cheats where used and thats a long time. i don't care what aimjunkie brings up the should lose.
It’s hilarious that the “personal” files that bungie so called spied on were from the actual cheat engine itself and from his previous ban evasions as shown in the article. I can’t believe he’s trying to spin this on bungie just because his shitty software got detected on the anti-cheat system.
It's like complaining that a Defensive OS worked as it should. They (are a Team; it's not just one guy) are simply handing their @ss to Bungie by doing this. Because even tho they theoreticaly can win this Lawsuit, they will have to reveal enough informations about themselves to do so. Which in turn will allow Bungie to sue them for the final time.
I don't know much about this, and I have never ever been on a cheats sight or used cheats. My friend uninstalled destiny 2 all of it, and after he couldn't find a 100Gb file on his computer. He used a program and found it was a Bungie file taking 100Gb not labeled battleeye. That is very concerning to me how hidden it was.
It's hilarious to my how they all agreed to Bungie TOS when they first started the game and say they did not violate it, which they clearly did, whilst using their own TOS to file a lawsuit... Looks like double standards to me...
TOS almost never hold up in court mostly because is too long for anyone to read also it because it's only told to you after you buy the product so it entrapment because getting a refund is mostly impossible
@@corinthiansdaniels3728 I know at least for steam games if you don't have over 2 hours of playtime and it's within a week or two of you buying the game, you can typically get a refund easily just by submitting a ticket. I don't know how you'd go about getting a refund on Playstation, Xbox, or Epic Games or Stadia so idk about those.
@@corinthiansdaniels3728 Cept you don't buy destiny 2 any more, its free to play, so that is hardly entrapment since you can't play the game without agreeing to the TOS before hand, so that's can't even hold water in court as a claim lol
if Aimjunkies wins the lawsuit gaming as a whole is fucked, if developers cannot protect their games from hackers without being subject to legal action they will simply not make games anymore.
The reason the judge isn’t gung-ho about siding with Bungie about this court case is because it would set a completely new precedent on cheating in public games, and would set up a multitude of new potential court cases that may not necessarily be justified, but would still be supported by this one.
@@dracojay2596 That creating third party software in violation of a EULA causes significant financial and reputational harm to the original developer, and more importantly that it's a violation of intellectual property rights. That's a pretty difficult thing to legally prove, as it should be. Legal precedents can have far-reaching and sometimes unintended consequences. The judge is absolutely correct to be treading carefully here.
To me the cheaters surely can't win this out, if their main claim is bungie stealing their code to anti cheat. Then aimjunkies stole their code first, the dumbest arguement ive ever see
Problem is that at the time Bungies TOS only covered players (second party) and not third party companies. In short players looking at the code was illegal. Companies looking at it was not.
The cheat IS a derivative work. Just because you say you're not "legally liable" does not mean you are immune from doing illegal things. If that were true, then no negligence would ever be possible. Also, just because a lawyer writes it in a legal brief does not make it true.
@@CrestOfArtorias 'derivative work' here refers to copyright law, not a terms of service, meaning that the cheats as their own code, which is a creative work (all or most web development is), is ultimately based on Bungie's code for D2, which could not exist without the D2 code itself.
Your honour, the homebrewed pipebombs I sold were clearly for recreational usage only. I distinctly denied legal liability for any people that could've potentially been blown up by their malicious usage before I sold them to the concerned clientele.
something i love about is when sweatcicle is reading, he doesnt sound hesitant or goes "uhhh" trying to pause and read properly, he cuts out in silence for a split sec to read without any awkward noises, i want to take inspiration from that
I thought basically everyone could just read because they teach you in school. Then I saw people with degrees attempting to read basic sentences in videos and failing not just to understand them, but to even just get through the whole thing without stumbling or stopping, and I realised that reading is a skill a lot of people haven’t really mastered.
That will not happen. Developing cheat software is not and should not be a crime. The only crime would be using it with malicious intent or against User agreements while playing a game.
@@chumbaman777 yup… people don’t understand that “ban cheats” could be a broad broad establishment of precedence. My guess is it will be nullified and the end of the claim will be honored. But it shouldn’t be a surprise that Bungie is collecting data on people with the game downloaded…. They think SONY was only interested in the game?
Its not, and should not be illegal to make malicious code. The cyber security sector does this all the time. We test antivirus with code that is very similar to game cheats it modifies files while avoiding detection. Banning this practice, which it will cause laws cross sectors, ie laws based in tech can be applied to fashion, will literally destroy internet security as we know it.
It's time guardians. Wether we like it or not we have stepped into a war on social media. We must now take matters into our own hands and hunt down the cheaters and sue them into Submission.
Cheaters be like: How dare you catch and sue us for using your code to create our own code for hacks for people to use offline in your *online only* game??? The mental gymnastics these people go through would be amazing at the Olympics
1) It would be good to see how this company "found out" that Bungie used Destiny 2 to take files from someone's personal computer. I feel that anything more than scanning for installed and/or running cheat software is too much of a risk for player backlash and exodus to implement. 2) I would like to see how they were sure Bungie reverse-engineered their software. All of this sounds like empty and false wild accusations without proof to back it up. 3) Even if Bungie did get a hold of their software's object code, that doesn't mean that Bungie needed to use any of their code in the updated cheat detection to include their cheat software; It could have been something as small as a simple fix or patch to whatever exploit was being used as the basis for the cheat. Also, on the topic of taking apart another's code, wouldn't this cheat software company have needed to pick apart the code of Destiny 2 in order to make their cheat? To figure out how to hook their software into the game? So, if this claim of theirs against Bungie held water, wouldn't Bungie also have equal claim against them? 4) Most importantly, Destiny 2 is Bungie's own software and service. If Bungie does not wish for a program to work with their game, they have every right to put in place measures to prevent the programs from working together. Destiny 2 isn't an ecosystem/device line with a store like Apple, so I don't think anyone could even make a fist step towards forcing Bungie to make their software open to any add-on program anyone wants to make. This is Bungie's software, Bungie's IP, and 100% Bungie's choice in whether or not they shut out cheats, which as a Destiny 2 player, I hope Bungie keeps fighting to shut out cheats.
its not a secret that bungie looks at your computer all battleye and easyanticheat games do this its only active while the games open and only looks at currently running applications
Would that be similar to how other games purposefully put cheaters in cheater only lobbies, or how singleplayer games would have different dumb or unsatisfying endings for pirated copies?
Even though we give Bungie a lot of shit about the state of the game, I love how much respect they gets from the players because of situations like this.
Bungie should win this case. Due to the fact that destiny itself is an online game it is literally impossible to play in "offline" mode like if I disconnect my router and try to play you won't be able to even start the game. These cheaters need to man up and face the consequences of ruining a good thing for others.
They won't "man up." They were earning a good amount of money from this. If already, they are hating the fact that an Anti-Cheat Software did its job and detected their Cheat Software.
@@h4gaming721 It won't go on for long anymore. By doing this, AJ's are literally putting their own @sses out for Bungie. Even if Bungie loose it, AJ will basically open a door for Bungie to call for an in-depth legal egzamination of all the Files that AJ have.
Irrelevant for AimJunkies. They are not the ones breaching TOS, because they don't use cheats. Bungie also didn't protect their code against viewing by third party companies at the time. The legal difference between a user using cheats or viewing the code and a third party developing cheats is huge.
It did say Single player use but there is no upfront single player option to select though there is scripts as that will add firewall rules to block match making so you are online but won't see anyone else as they can't connect to you.
Just a reminder..... ALWAYS READ THE ENTIRE TERMS OF SERVICE AGREEMENT whether it's for a game, subscription, whatever. Always read it, less chance of being blind sided somehow
Funny how they say because legally they aren't at fault if someone uses their CHEATS in pvp. just like how those dump trucks aren't actually liable if your car gets hits by a rock flying out the end. they are. it's just some bullshit.
Bungie may monitor the folder that destiny is installed on, they may not snoop in other folders however battle eye may also monitor software, whith that said, that company must have proof or they are screwed. I hope companies like these go down hard as well the cheaters buying the software
The Mr. May strawman is literally a “glass bones and paper skin” situation from SpongeBob, and the boomers in the courtroom are SpongeBob and Patrick, eating up the lies and buying even more bags to hold chocolate in.
I'm no software engineer but I'm very curious at this allegation that somehow installing Destiny 2 would create some backdoor for the developper to spy on you. That's not like it's something trivial to implement, especially if it was to the point of not being detected by any third party after 5 full years of live service. To my knowledge, the data any piece of gaming software is collecting has to be stated/filed before release for compliance with data regulations and worldwide data protection laws.
its called BattleEye........ you literally agree to have information accessible when agreeing to ToS for BE. bungie still work in conjunction with BE reports to validify bans with relevant information on the account
"You're not allowed to use our cheats in online games" *Developer blocks said cheats from their always-online game "You can't do that! We're gonna sue you!" ....so dumb.
All I gotta say on the whole "unauthorized access to Mr. May's files" claim is that's how anticheats work. Bungie bought the cheat to decompile it and hand it over to battleye to add it to the list of bannable cheats.
@@san0mad Cheating isnt a legal term. There is no law stopping you from "cheating" in a game. Breach of TOS however is a breach of contract. Unauthorized access of personal information is also a legal offense.
“AimJunkies offers cheats and mods that give a user an advantage over the competition” is literally on their website. “Intended to use for offline” The competition is not dregs, its other players
like come on "use of cheats is permitted in an offline enviorment." **there is literally no such thing as offline in D2**. Theres no way they just said that, all bungie needs to do is show up to court with a console monitor and no wifi connection and show the judge the screen that say "internet connection required". literally beats that entire argument
As a software developer, sadly if bungie did buy and reverse engineer their program, then yes, the cheaters do have foundation to their lawsuit. Regardless if it is an alteration to bungies code, some of the code is highly likely to be unique which bungie does not have permission to us due to copyright infringement. Yes, using someone’s else’s code is not lawful.
But wouldn't the Code Copyright apply only if Bungie used it to create something of their own ? Which they didn't do - they used it to cross-references their data with what the Anti-Cheat was detecting.
@@S0L4RFLAR3 "Scan for cheat software" doesnt reveal code. At most it might detect illegitimate data being injected. Besisdes this would only apply to players that use the cheats not to the company developing the cheats.
@@CrestOfArtorias Bungie's ToS does state that using their Code in malicious ways (and creating Cheats Software does actually count towards that) is forbidden. What Bungie did with AimJunkies' Code, wasn't breaking their (AJ's) ToS, because they didn't use it to create something new. They took it apart and added it to BattleEye's Data Base (which Copyright does not forbid).
I feel like Bungie anticipated this because of aimbots counter to blizzard. I’m guessing Bungie is about to bring the giant hammer next go around and they’re not doing it alone with their pocket book, they’re bringing daddy’s money, Sonys. Aimbot is about to get something they were not asking for. Dude got a 7mil fine. This company’s about ready to become a huge example for all cheaters
Bungie being able to see all our files sounds like BS. If their anti cheat, Battle Eye, can't detect all cheaters, what makes Bungie able to detect everything?
The thing to remember is when you play D2 for the first time you have to agree to the EULA, which to my knowledge probably has something along the lines of "not allowed to modify or use 3rd party overlays when using the game." a complete guess on my part but if thats true AimJunkies would be in violation as well.
@@steves4562 If they made the program then they did cause they would have to play the game to test it to make sure it works. Even being the sells puts them as co-conspirators as they are selling a problem that illegally modifies someone elses work.
Not a coder or programmer, but to my knowledge, you do not need access to the source code for the game to produce software cheats. Destiny 2 is closed source software, which means the source code cannot be publically viewed. I am not sure the methods that are used to make cheats, but it does not involve the source code in d2s case. Please, someone correct me if I am wrong.
I just domt understand how someone can make a code that allows you the kind of cheats you can get without knowing how it should interact with the source code. I have only a year of coding experience, so I'm no expert. But I find it impossible to believe that someone can make cheats as complex as these without the source code. No idea though.
@@matthewfennell8283 actually one can decompile a file and see it's flow and work accordingly without making any specific changes to the game code and we already have ways to inspect memory so i think it is very much feasible to know how it is working
the fact that the OG lawsuit got thrown out is already dangerous But if this new one goes anywhere...all of gaming will be fucked, because THAT is a precedent you do NOT want to set
The OG Lawsuit was handled by an idi0t, who declined to acknowlegde the fact they had absolutely no idea how this works, and tried to lecture everyone about it... Let's hope this one will be different.
Cheats are called cheats for a reason. If something like doping in sports is not legal, then this shouldn't be either. This judge is out of their own mind
There’s a reason legal nuance exists and a reason why legal precedent doesn’t decide every single case. While the two situations you described may be similar in spirit, it doesn’t mean they’re the same practically. In a civil suit, linking the actions of one party directly to damages being cited by the other party is what matters most. If you can’t link the two then there is no case, it is by far the most fundamentally important piece you need to start a civil suit. The judge(s) are likely siding with Phoenix because Bungie is not able to supply effective evidence that Phoenix’s product resulted in damages to Bungie.
As some additional information for you, cheat developers for games not made in Southeast Asia most of them will use clever tricks to not ever touch the games code. They do this because of those world of Warcraft lawsuits. If the only thing bungie has for sure is that they broke TOS or enabled others to and bungie did in fact derive code directly against the code of the developer of said cheats (which is what sounds like they’re alleging), the cheat developer could win or at the very least not lose, because then at that point bungie would be in violation of intellectual property rights as it pertains to software code. Im not a lawyer and could very well be talking out of my ass but I’ve seen this song and dance before. And just because gamers want the cheat developers to lose doesn’t usually mean they will. Usually just ends in a stalemate.
They admitted to breaking Bungie’s TOS, then claims Bungie broke their own TOS. I’d have to look up the WoW lawsuits, but that sounds like grasping at straws to me. Just trying to find a way to ‘not lose’, so they don’t go broke.
@@AyyFuji from what sweat was saying they are claiming bungie had used their code in their attempt to fight them which could actually work in their favor is what I’m saying, because if they did they’d be violating their intellectual property rights
@@JoshDoingLinux If AJ win on the "Bungie violated our ToS/used our code" front, that simply allows Bungie to refile the previous suit with "AJ violated our ToS/used our code". The real sweet spot will be when AJ has to prove Bungie is using their code and not realize that some of Bungie's original code is in there as well.
@@_stonhinge there are two different arguments there. The TOS and Code Use are two different arguments and if either one of them can prove the other did that the TOS issue is almost worthless.
precedents already have been set. Blizzard won lawsuits from companies like this who made bots in WoW. That will probably be cited. It will either be a TOS violation or in order for the code the aimbot to work you need to know how the Destiny code works which means a copyright theft of the source code to make the hack. Then you could also just see the hack in general and creators of hacks HAVE been arrested before for things outside of gaming. you are creating a hack using the source code to connect to the network and exploit. That could go to a federal level. If the kid wants to be a smart ass, bleed em dry in court fees, get a few million in billable hours from the lawyers hitting him up every day needing attorney advice. Bungie has a full time legal staff at their disposal and like Blizzard has done, make an example for them and I say in the end make it a federal crime to use any hack. In the end I say its either a TOS or Copyright lawsuit...or both. Probably the counter suit is to lessen the blow financially as Bungie could pay as well. Bungie will happily pay say $100,000 if the other guy needs to close down everything and also pay Millions so rather than pay say...$2,000,000 as an example, then he only needs to pay $1,900,000. Regardless. This kid is stupid AF.
@@beta3522 good thing they didnt. games and anti cheat only access surface level information about your computer and the files currently running in the background. they dont care about your folder title tentacle porn, Beta, they care if youre running anything in the background that neither of their anti cheats will flag as a suspicious program, that ends up allowing you to cheat.
@@WantedForTwerking that is true but i wouldnt wanna mess with epic im signed to an nda so i cannot disclose certain details but lets say itll be more than an ip ban 🙂
There are so many dataminers constantly going through the D2 code, that if there was a backdoor to see into and download off of your computers harddrive, we would know about it already.
Nah, that man is grasping at straws for literally anything. When you download a game and the file is in use, your computer will let you know if an app is accessing more files than necessary. If anything, the ability to use cheats shows that Bungie doesn't restrict your files, which is more prone to cheating. There is a term for it, but certain games will outright deny any file modification while the program/game is running. Genshin Impact is an example (gacha game, go figure). It's more hilarious because they are crying that they had their cheats reverse engineered and that it violates their TOS... when they had to do the exact same thing to make those cheats to begin with. And they are making cheats for an online only game that they knowingly make cheats for tracking other players through walls and what have you. What part of them saying a single player game or offline only is the reccomend use of their cheats did they not understand when they made an aim bot?
I'm about to go rob a bank and just say "bank robbery isn't illegal"...the bank violated my privacy by recording me taking the money, and the employees trying to stop me actually caused me emotional damage.
This is why game companies should continue to issue hardware bans like Punkbuster did for the Battlefiled series early on. If you ban the mac address of the NIC it's pretty hard to come back from that.
While waiting to testify as a expert in court, a defense lawyer literally made the claim that IT is borderline "Voodoo". The 60+ year judge nodded in agreement. I was shocked... Sooooo this isn't surprising
It’s a law within the confines of Bungie’s software. The same way TOS allows social media companies to sell your data. It’s not a law, but you agreed to it by accepting disclaimer. Funny enough, TOS was updated with the last hotfix, it promoted to re-accept the TOS before logging back in
@@EliteBlackSash OK they still can't hack someone's account to get their information. Those are protected by the law. Even if people agree to a ToS, it's still not above the law.
@@beta3522 Uh.....Bungie wouldnt need to "hack" to get access to their D2 information in the first place. Any game files would already be theirs to look at and examine.
A couple of recent updates ago where we were required to accept the new terms of service with Bungie, I actually read them. Took an hour but in short it states that battle eye will be monitoring your computer looking for cheat code only. They will also have access to your username, your pc serial number, the version of your operating system but supposedly not having access to your personal name. Also they will know your location. It also stated that arbitration is now gone and that you cannot sue Bungie in a class action lawsuit. That each individual business or person has to file their own legal matter in court. This is why people need to read prior to accepting any terms of service.
Okay so two big things I want to address; Firstly, this guy has to prove all this in court regardless. He has to show that the information was actually downloaded and directed to a server at Bungie. Which he might be slick and try to use the data Bungie normally gets from you, that being your IP, what OS version and what hardware you're running. Like, surface level shit that isn't really identifying or invasive. Again, he has to prove it was his actual "confidential" files. Which is going to be interesting how this plays out. Two; These claims are already incredibly laughable and near paranoid schizophrenic territory. Hear me out; Why is it now that Bungie is supposedly sucking personal files from your PC coming out *now* and from a *cheat maker* who's currently being sued? And not someone else? Why hasn't anyone else spoken out? We have people that exist right now that are so mindful of their privacy that they actively watch their network and outgoing *anything*. Anything being sent out from their PC is literally watched with big eyes. Someone else would have and should have spoken out. This sort of stuff would have been far bigger than the EGS Chinese outrage and the Riot Valorant Anti-Cheat... *riots*. And lastly; I doubt Bungie is just going to give up on this. Bungie has Sony money and should go as hard as they need to to set a damn example. If Bungie wins, this makes it huge for video games and how cheats should be legally nuked from orbit.
Although I wish cheats would cease to exist. This is a never ending cycle even if bungie wins and continues to win. They will 100% stop trying to fight it and instead invest the most they can muster up to better their current anti-cheat solution. Just like every other game dev/company has done. I would LOVE to be proven wrong so I can finally run around in War-zone and not get sniped from underground.
@@WantedForTwerking Yeah that might end up being the case, sadly. I'm just naively optimistic and hoping that Bungie can win and set some sort of legal precedence to protect games from cheat makers. Just the fact that these people can just spew terms of service and EULA's and whatnot to protect themselves from getting sued is just scummy as hell.
The cheaters could have a really good argument in court, they're just on incredibly thin ice and if they don't execute it properly they get shit stomped.
agreeing to a ToS is a legally binding contract between you and the company of the service you are using. breaking tos is breaking a contract and you can and will be held liable for damages done by breaking said contract.
@@omensoffate cheat makers tos wont hold up in court, otherwise every single game would be unable to protect their games against cheating cuz they would just sue the game devs. Bungie is protecting its intellectual property by doing things that "break" cheat makers tos. I cant make a contract up that says im allowed to steal from you whenever i want and force you to sign it. Inordee to protect their game, they were forced to agree to a tos, a contract signed under duress isnt valid.
@@berylbell8452 no because they want to win this case so they're going throw as much shit against the wall as they can and see what sticks. They don't actually care about battleye looking for cheats on your computer, they just want to make bungie look bad.
AimJunkie: Sells cheat programs. Bungie: *Sales increase* Judge: The fuck is the problem? .... Also, bungie illegally accessing a personal PC without a warrant will definitely have them losing this battle.
i mean yeah that is like walking into someone's home without permission if that comes out to be true they will 100% lose the battle with that access you can see emails, CC, addresses and private files.
all anti cheat programs and games access your computer to view programs running in the background. if i boot up process hacker for black ops 3 or cheat engine for borderlands then boot up d2 without closing them, ill get flagged and banned instantly. thats the point of them.
Can we all agree that regardless of this argument that it is the saddest thing ever to cheat on a game like Destiny 2 (or any game) just for the sake of stats and an ego stroke
I guess it is true when you think about it. These outside companies aren't beholden to a EULA because they are creating external software (and there is no legal precedent for 'cheating in video game'). And technically this company is a software developer, who is still protected by the law for their own intellectual property. Pretty interesting case, all told!
For the claims against bungie decompiling, they are basically saying that even though they stole code for bungie to modify, bungie still shouldn’t have stolen back the modified code.
Now, as far as I understand it. If AimJunkies made software that violates Bungie's Terms of Service, it could invalidate their claim of Bungie using software they supposedly stole from AimJunkies. They would have to reserve engineered Bungie's code to create their product, and it would imply that Bungie is examing a modified version of their software. AimJunkies would then be liable for all damages as a result. Then it goes without mentioning that if AimJunkies were developing software for Destiny 2, a game that has; no offline mode. *_Then they are already in breach of their own terms of service as you are attempting to defraud their users by selling something that could result in account termination._* Therefore anyone who bought their software could go after AimJunkies as well for breach of contract in a class-action if they were banned as a result of this.
the fact that no one has ever called out bungie about the LSLA tells me that what aimjunkie said was a lie, bungie would also have ZERO use of doing such a thing, i think its fabricated
A thing with anticheats is zzz of them work by scanning suspicious files on the computer or open files on the computer because a lot of cheats are external programs running on the same computer. Im not sure but it could be what this lawsuit iss referring to, when it comes to him having his files stolen and reverse engineered.
No. A bungie employee bought the software, agreed to the TOS and then bungie decompiled the product, which is a breach of TOS. Ironically AimJunkies did not break TOS at any point, so sadly chances are high that bungie might lose against AimJunkies on that claim.
They should change anti cheat to do a kernel level scan for cheat engines before being allowed to log in. If you decline or fail you get put into a different lobby
“Bungee imc’s unauthorized access of mr. Mays confidential and private computer files has caused and will continue to Maude mr. may irreparable injury and damage” sounds like something from a random note
What files did they even steal from Mr. May? It literally said "without his knowledge" so how does he know? I understand if they won't say what they were directly because of evidence or whatever but I'm just curious on what's so important that Bungie allegedly stole files off of this computer
BattleEye is a kernel level anti-cheat software and part of the agreement you acknowledge when installing it is that it could identify a process list on your computer. We have all already agreed to let Bungie see what we're running.
AimJunkie: Use our cheat offline
Destiny 2: An online game
Thats already a red flag for me, chief. I feel like the judges are just a bunch of boomers that doesnt understand how technology works
Ongod. From the US point of view, our government is corrupt including judges sadly. But Bungie got this in the bag. They got Japan to back them up.
I can't wait for AimJunkies to lose.
@@Vosik_Splicer_Archpriest will not happen. Bungie lost another court case as well.
@@immortal7669 youre saying a multi millionare company will lose to a team of cheat selling scumbags in court? Yea no
@@fungavriel3736 honestly both are scumbags, I hope they both lose in some way.
It's insane to me how stubborn these cheaters are. They're grasping at every straw.
Must have made a ton of money from players who paid them for their cheating software. Just imagine the lawyer bills and that's before the actual lawsuit, jury etc.
Yeah, people that make millions of dollars at something tend to be tenacious.
@@slevingaius you don’t pay for the jury lmao
@@scoty_does Yeah people arent realizing how much money good private cheat developers are making.
Yeah their grasp of avarice is strong
Bungie: cheating is against tos, so we are suing.
Cheat suppliers: thats not illegal. It just their tos.
Cheat suppliers: so we think they broke our tos so we are suing.
yeah, and I'll not be surprise that judge will be on Cheat suppliers side, the judge that was in the first lawsuit was such an idiot to take their side.
Aimjunkies didnt hack into Bungies staff personal computers, cause damage, rip their files and share personal details. All of which is really illegal.
Difference is you can engineer the cheats without ever agreeing to TOS, however to get the cheating software you have to agree to TOS
@@MotoJP99 those are all claims btw nobody proved those and the only "damage" being caused is a loss of money
@@di11onm1nkgamingin order to make the cheats they need to know the inner workings of the engine destiny runs on, therefore they need the hard code of the game, that which by distributing, reverse engineering, or even viewing is against TOS
Basically Aimjunkie is countersuing for something Aimjunkie did in the first place in order to make compatible cheats for Destiny 2. This is really stupid on Aimjunkie's part because their countersuit admits to the fact that they violated Bungie's terms of service in order to create cheats for Destiny 2. Aimjunkie is the aggressor as pertains to the whole cheating issue and Bungie's response is reactionary. By violating Bungie's terms of service in the first place, it pretty much opens the door for Bungie to go on the offensive to do what is necessary to stop the cheating. Technically Bungie can treat the hacking software as though it is a virus and apply countermeasures to clean their system. To defeat the cheat code they have to be able to break it down in order to figure out how to block it to keep it from further infecting their system.
@Sir Hamsterlot Not to mention the dogshit TOS they have you sign when you get them
Sort of. This claim holds power since Bungie doesn't say you cannot look at the code of the game anywhere in the user agreements. This opens the door for a group like aimjunkies to examine and look at the code. On the flip side, in order to download, use or purchase their software, aimjunkies requires you to agree to not look at the code. In order for aimjunkies to create it, they had to use Bungie's code, but it wasn't against any user agreement. In order for Bungie to be able to detect Aimjunkies cheats, they had to reverse engineer their software which did break Aimjunkies user agreement. This is honestly a clear win for Aimjunkies from a legal perspective IF the judge can understand what all of this means.
@@chumbaman777 I’ll miss playing on PC then, but playing on console isn’t all that bad. Just wish I could of kept playing pc, oh well I guess. Can’t play it if the hackers won’t let you
The ToS only applies to players not 3rd party developers.
@@chumbaman777 well it might be not against bungies tos but still aimjunkie started they wanted to fight. its just like a guy running to you and punching you in the face but you eventually winning now can the first guy go to court and win? why because he did start it he wanted to fight now you have to live with the consequences of that. and aimjunkies did hurt the reputation of bungie. and maybe it is ok to look at destiny 2 code but what isn't ok is making cheats for the game and selling them and even if bungie reversed the cheats just because they say that there not responsible for the things the cheats do doesn't make it true the. if bungie doesn't win this someone is payed from the cheatmaker they already showed the willing to do everthing to get what they want why would they stop now. if i would be the judge if wouldn't even heard what they said becauase i would make the lose everthing you can't trust those guys a single word. and if bungie has to look at porsonal data to make their game safer ok make it. they would all go to prision for the exact the time there cheats where used and thats a long time. i don't care what aimjunkie brings up the should lose.
It’s hilarious that the “personal” files that bungie so called spied on were from the actual cheat engine itself and from his previous ban evasions as shown in the article. I can’t believe he’s trying to spin this on bungie just because his shitty software got detected on the anti-cheat system.
It's like complaining that a Defensive OS worked as it should.
They (are a Team; it's not just one guy) are simply handing their @ss to Bungie by doing this.
Because even tho they theoreticaly can win this Lawsuit, they will have to reveal enough informations about themselves to do so.
Which in turn will allow Bungie to sue them for the final time.
I don't know much about this, and I have never ever been on a cheats sight or used cheats. My friend uninstalled destiny 2 all of it, and after he couldn't find a 100Gb file on his computer. He used a program and found it was a Bungie file taking 100Gb not labeled battleeye. That is very concerning to me how hidden it was.
@@arbalest327 battleeye isn't a bungie program. It's just the name for an anti cheat multiple games use
@@arbalest327 battleye is a common anticheat software that bungie now uses. It isn't marked as bungie or d2 specific bc it isn't.
@@torunsmok5890 ok, but still it's disturbing it was just there after the whole game was uninstalled.
It's hilarious to my how they all agreed to Bungie TOS when they first started the game and say they did not violate it, which they clearly did, whilst using their own TOS to file a lawsuit... Looks like double standards to me...
TOS almost never hold up in court mostly because is too long for anyone to read also it because it's only told to you after you buy the product so it entrapment because getting a refund is mostly impossible
@@corinthiansdaniels3728 I know at least for steam games if you don't have over 2 hours of playtime and it's within a week or two of you buying the game, you can typically get a refund easily just by submitting a ticket. I don't know how you'd go about getting a refund on Playstation, Xbox, or Epic Games or Stadia so idk about those.
@@corinthiansdaniels3728 Well guess what, Destiny 2 is literally free so there is no way the TOS can be dismissed in the court
@@corinthiansdaniels3728 Cept you don't buy destiny 2 any more, its free to play, so that is hardly entrapment since you can't play the game without agreeing to the TOS before hand, so that's can't even hold water in court as a claim lol
ToS only applies to players. You can download destiny rip the code and develop cheats without ever agreeing to it.
You know it's bad when my boi is up at 3 am ready to rant
I swear! And I was about to go to bed. F it, no sleep Tuesday! 😂
Facts
yeah thats concerning
Yep and I have school
Also what did I start
if Aimjunkies wins the lawsuit gaming as a whole is fucked, if developers cannot protect their games from hackers without being subject to legal action they will simply not make games anymore.
Or they will lock the Code completely (which they actually can).
Or offline games only.
That's stupid
Well no, they just have to actually write a decent TOS.
On the contrary, it'll actually force online games to build anti cheats that are actually worth a shit or fully ban ip's from accessing multi-player
The reason the judge isn’t gung-ho about siding with Bungie about this court case is because it would set a completely new precedent on cheating in public games, and would set up a multitude of new potential court cases that may not necessarily be justified, but would still be supported by this one.
which is probably why that case sweat mentioned about the WoW autoplay software basically ended in a stalemate.
What new precedent?
Edit: (Thank you. Y’all can stop answering now lol)
And the judge probably doesn't know Jack shit about games and is an old out of date person.
@@hardtobearit Not everyone likes video games. Way to go calling a huge portion of the population out of date.
@@dracojay2596 That creating third party software in violation of a EULA causes significant financial and reputational harm to the original developer, and more importantly that it's a violation of intellectual property rights. That's a pretty difficult thing to legally prove, as it should be.
Legal precedents can have far-reaching and sometimes unintended consequences. The judge is absolutely correct to be treading carefully here.
We need very specific type of court system for these kinds of things. Current judges and lawyers may not be able to understand what's even happening.
To me the cheaters surely can't win this out, if their main claim is bungie stealing their code to anti cheat. Then aimjunkies stole their code first, the dumbest arguement ive ever see
Remember Zuck in front of congress? That’s pretty accurate to how tech lawsuits go down
Problem is that at the time Bungies TOS only covered players (second party) and not third party companies. In short players looking at the code was illegal. Companies looking at it was not.
Oh believe me they can win. I know it seems crazy but they can win.
The cheat IS a derivative work. Just because you say you're not "legally liable" does not mean you are immune from doing illegal things. If that were true, then no negligence would ever be possible. Also, just because a lawyer writes it in a legal brief does not make it true.
Wasnt part of the TOS for third party companies at the time. Changes to TOS after the fact are irrelevant.
@@CrestOfArtorias 'derivative work' here refers to copyright law, not a terms of service, meaning that the cheats as their own code, which is a creative work (all or most web development is), is ultimately based on Bungie's code for D2, which could not exist without the D2 code itself.
Your honour, the homebrewed pipebombs I sold were clearly for recreational usage only. I distinctly denied legal liability for any people that could've potentially been blown up by their malicious usage before I sold them to the concerned clientele.
something i love about is when sweatcicle is reading, he doesnt sound hesitant or goes "uhhh" trying to pause and read properly, he cuts out in silence for a split sec to read without any awkward noises, i want to take inspiration from that
It's simple to edit out dead air.
Me too man.
I thought basically everyone could just read because they teach you in school. Then I saw people with degrees attempting to read basic sentences in videos and failing not just to understand them, but to even just get through the whole thing without stumbling or stopping, and I realised that reading is a skill a lot of people haven’t really mastered.
@@hibber25 we're talking in a live infront of audience stage setting, where you cant perfect ur presentation or whatever, my friend
@@InceyWincey its a bless to know how to speak, or even have flaunt english between all languages in general
If nothing else, they can keep these companies back and forth into court indefinitely until they have nothing left to fight with
you'd be surprised how much these cheat software companies make, of course its not bungie numbers but its a lot.
@@Destinylover14 sadly, it's likely enough to make Bungie ache as time goes, but not enough to outlast them
Ah yes support corporate legal bullying.
@@meadRL if its to deal with cheat software ass holes, then sure
@@meadRL aim junkies asked for it lol
I just hope this lawsuit leads to a precedent to legally prevent distribution of cheats 🙏.
Hopefully be it may do something to mods
We all know this won't happen.
That will not happen. Developing cheat software is not and should not be a crime. The only crime would be using it with malicious intent or against User agreements while playing a game.
@@chumbaman777 yup… people don’t understand that “ban cheats” could be a broad broad establishment of precedence. My guess is it will be nullified and the end of the claim will be honored. But it shouldn’t be a surprise that Bungie is collecting data on people with the game downloaded…. They think SONY was only interested in the game?
Its not, and should not be illegal to make malicious code. The cyber security sector does this all the time. We test antivirus with code that is very similar to game cheats it modifies files while avoiding detection. Banning this practice, which it will cause laws cross sectors, ie laws based in tech can be applied to fashion, will literally destroy internet security as we know it.
All the cheat developers need to pay for what they are doing/done the fact that they can even do this in the courtroom is just plain ridiculous
The whistle or ringing sound in the background is killing me lol
i thought i was getting tinnitus. xd
@@drewblood3530 I actually have it and I didn’t notice about the whistle 😢
Sounds like a fan or a loud ass pc lol
They are certainly tenacious. I’ll give them that.
I obviously still hope Aimjunkies loses the lawsuit though.
It's time guardians. Wether we like it or not we have stepped into a war on social media. We must now take matters into our own hands and hunt down the cheaters and sue them into Submission.
Gold
the class war is over
*Sunsinger mode activates*
@@star-pi1bh who said anything about a class war
@@mex4071 no more infighting between classes we have a common enemy then we can go back
Cheaters be like: How dare you catch and sue us for using your code to create our own code for hacks for people to use offline in your *online only* game???
The mental gymnastics these people go through would be amazing at the Olympics
inb4 banned for steroids
1) It would be good to see how this company "found out" that Bungie used Destiny 2 to take files from someone's personal computer. I feel that anything more than scanning for installed and/or running cheat software is too much of a risk for player backlash and exodus to implement.
2) I would like to see how they were sure Bungie reverse-engineered their software. All of this sounds like empty and false wild accusations without proof to back it up.
3) Even if Bungie did get a hold of their software's object code, that doesn't mean that Bungie needed to use any of their code in the updated cheat detection to include their cheat software; It could have been something as small as a simple fix or patch to whatever exploit was being used as the basis for the cheat. Also, on the topic of taking apart another's code, wouldn't this cheat software company have needed to pick apart the code of Destiny 2 in order to make their cheat? To figure out how to hook their software into the game? So, if this claim of theirs against Bungie held water, wouldn't Bungie also have equal claim against them?
4) Most importantly, Destiny 2 is Bungie's own software and service. If Bungie does not wish for a program to work with their game, they have every right to put in place measures to prevent the programs from working together. Destiny 2 isn't an ecosystem/device line with a store like Apple, so I don't think anyone could even make a fist step towards forcing Bungie to make their software open to any add-on program anyone wants to make. This is Bungie's software, Bungie's IP, and 100% Bungie's choice in whether or not they shut out cheats, which as a Destiny 2 player, I hope Bungie keeps fighting to shut out cheats.
its not a secret that bungie looks at your computer all battleye and easyanticheat games do this its only active while the games open and only looks at currently running applications
Bungie should be like, " we only put the anti cheat in the online version of the game"
It amazes me that the lengths cheaters will go to to stay in the game to try to win in PvP end game activities ( Trials of Osiris)
You are aware that this isnt about "Cheaters" right? This is about a developer that creates cheat software. Legally speaking that's a huge difference.
Only use our cheats offline... in a online game.. thats like the cheapest excuse they could come up with lol
Someone should make a D2 anti cheat that works but is very obvious to the anticheat and just troll willing cheaters
W idea
Would that be similar to how other games purposefully put cheaters in cheater only lobbies, or how singleplayer games would have different dumb or unsatisfying endings for pirated copies?
There has been people that did troll problems like that and it cuts off ability to play and other stuff.
Even though we give Bungie a lot of shit about the state of the game, I love how much respect they gets from the players because of situations like this.
Bungie should win this case. Due to the fact that destiny itself is an online game it is literally impossible to play in "offline" mode like if I disconnect my router and try to play you won't be able to even start the game. These cheaters need to man up and face the consequences of ruining a good thing for others.
They won't "man up."
They were earning a good amount of money from this.
If already, they are hating the fact that an Anti-Cheat Software did its job and detected their Cheat Software.
@@TheCursedCat1927 Yeah I see what you saying just wish this whole thing wasn't going on at all.
@@h4gaming721
It won't go on for long anymore.
By doing this, AJ's are literally putting their own @sses out for Bungie.
Even if Bungie loose it, AJ will basically open a door for Bungie to call for an in-depth legal egzamination of all the Files that AJ have.
Irrelevant for AimJunkies. They are not the ones breaching TOS, because they don't use cheats. Bungie also didn't protect their code against viewing by third party companies at the time.
The legal difference between a user using cheats or viewing the code and a third party developing cheats is huge.
It did say Single player use but there is no upfront single player option to select though there is scripts as that will add firewall rules to block match making so you are online but won't see anyone else as they can't connect to you.
Just a reminder..... ALWAYS READ THE ENTIRE TERMS OF SERVICE AGREEMENT whether it's for a game, subscription, whatever. Always read it, less chance of being blind sided somehow
Holy shit....you tidied the room 😂😂 your parents must be so happy
Funny how they say because legally they aren't at fault if someone uses their CHEATS in pvp. just like how those dump trucks aren't actually liable if your car gets hits by a rock flying out the end. they are. it's just some bullshit.
Bungie may monitor the folder that destiny is installed on, they may not snoop in other folders however battle eye may also monitor software, whith that said, that company must have proof or they are screwed. I hope companies like these go down hard as well the cheaters buying the software
The Mr. May strawman is literally a “glass bones and paper skin” situation from SpongeBob, and the boomers in the courtroom are SpongeBob and Patrick, eating up the lies and buying even more bags to hold chocolate in.
I'm no software engineer but I'm very curious at this allegation that somehow installing Destiny 2 would create some backdoor for the developper to spy on you. That's not like it's something trivial to implement, especially if it was to the point of not being detected by any third party after 5 full years of live service. To my knowledge, the data any piece of gaming software is collecting has to be stated/filed before release for compliance with data regulations and worldwide data protection laws.
its called BattleEye........ you literally agree to have information accessible when agreeing to ToS for BE. bungie still work in conjunction with BE reports to validify bans with relevant information on the account
@@123TheCloop not only battleeye all kernel anticheats lol its a very common this for triple a games to do
Someone get bungo a judge that understands video games
Bungie just got Uno Reversed
"You're not allowed to use our cheats in online games"
*Developer blocks said cheats from their always-online game
"You can't do that! We're gonna sue you!"
....so dumb.
Sweat has my family held hostage 😂
Skill issue
Skill issue
The only thing that Bungie probably “spied” on was the modified game files on the computer of ‘Mr. May’
All I gotta say on the whole "unauthorized access to Mr. May's files" claim is that's how anticheats work. Bungie bought the cheat to decompile it and hand it over to battleye to add it to the list of bannable cheats.
"I'm suing because the anti-cheat accessed my files to stop me from cheating" is a pretty dumb argument for sure
"You aren't allowed to detect my cheats, Bungie"
"You also can't verify that my cheats are detected by your anticheat"
Fucking insane delusions.
@@san0mad Cheating isnt a legal term. There is no law stopping you from "cheating" in a game. Breach of TOS however is a breach of contract. Unauthorized access of personal information is also a legal offense.
What’s that weird ringing/whistling noise in the background whenever sweat was talking 😵💫
Can't wait to see Sony's lawyers to get involved the further this goes on.
Easy W at that stage
“AimJunkies offers cheats and mods that give a user an advantage over the competition” is literally on their website. “Intended to use for offline”
The competition is not dregs, its other players
destiny won't let you in the game if you're offline
Just woke up from a nightmare, to this 😭😂
Did you even really wake up at this point?
like come on "use of cheats is permitted in an offline enviorment."
**there is literally no such thing as offline in D2**. Theres no way they just said that, all bungie needs to do is show up to court with a console monitor and no wifi connection and show the judge the screen that say "internet connection required". literally beats that entire argument
As a software developer, sadly if bungie did buy and reverse engineer their program, then yes, the cheaters do have foundation to their lawsuit. Regardless if it is an alteration to bungies code, some of the code is highly likely to be unique which bungie does not have permission to us due to copyright infringement. Yes, using someone’s else’s code is not lawful.
But wouldn't the Code Copyright apply only if Bungie used it to create something of their own ?
Which they didn't do - they used it to cross-references their data with what the Anti-Cheat was detecting.
battleyes tos lets it have the right to scan cheat software installed on your pc which he had to agree to so he could play
@@TheCursedCat1927 Only if Bungie at the time declared derivative works from third party developers as a breach of TOS which apparently they did not.
@@S0L4RFLAR3 "Scan for cheat software" doesnt reveal code. At most it might detect illegitimate data being injected. Besisdes this would only apply to players that use the cheats not to the company developing the cheats.
@@CrestOfArtorias
Bungie's ToS does state that using their Code in malicious ways (and creating Cheats Software does actually count towards that) is forbidden.
What Bungie did with AimJunkies' Code, wasn't breaking their (AJ's) ToS, because they didn't use it to create something new.
They took it apart and added it to BattleEye's Data Base (which Copyright does not forbid).
I feel like Bungie anticipated this because of aimbots counter to blizzard. I’m guessing Bungie is about to bring the giant hammer next go around and they’re not doing it alone with their pocket book, they’re bringing daddy’s money, Sonys. Aimbot is about to get something they were not asking for. Dude got a 7mil fine. This company’s about ready to become a huge example for all cheaters
The rich kid whipping out daddy's pocketbook to spirit bomb aimjunkies and Phoenix digital to oblivion.
Bungie being able to see all our files sounds like BS. If their anti cheat, Battle Eye, can't detect all cheaters, what makes Bungie able to detect everything?
And what benefits could they possibly get that outweigh the cost of the publicity fallout of such an act
Bro, everyone already knows battle eye can look through your computer if it wanted to. And yeah, it still isn’t perfect.
Cheaters are truly at the bottom of the foodchain.
thanks for being destiny community lawyer so we all know what the hell is going on! legend!
The thing to remember is when you play D2 for the first time you have to agree to the EULA, which to my knowledge probably has something along the lines of "not allowed to modify or use 3rd party overlays when using the game." a complete guess on my part but if thats true AimJunkies would be in violation as well.
Not exactly. In this case Aimjunkies are not the end user.
@@steves4562 If they made the program then they did cause they would have to play the game to test it to make sure it works. Even being the sells puts them as co-conspirators as they are selling a problem that illegally modifies someone elses work.
Not a coder or programmer, but to my knowledge, you do not need access to the source code for the game to produce software cheats. Destiny 2 is closed source software, which means the source code cannot be publically viewed. I am not sure the methods that are used to make cheats, but it does not involve the source code in d2s case. Please, someone correct me if I am wrong.
I just domt understand how someone can make a code that allows you the kind of cheats you can get without knowing how it should interact with the source code. I have only a year of coding experience, so I'm no expert. But I find it impossible to believe that someone can make cheats as complex as these without the source code. No idea though.
@@matthewfennell8283 actually one can decompile a file and see it's flow and work accordingly without making any specific changes to the game code
and we already have ways to inspect memory so i think it is very much feasible to know how it is working
@@matthewfennell8283 Memory access manipulation.
the fact that the OG lawsuit got thrown out is already dangerous
But if this new one goes anywhere...all of gaming will be fucked, because THAT is a precedent you do NOT want to set
The OG Lawsuit was handled by an idi0t, who declined to acknowlegde the fact they had absolutely no idea how this works, and tried to lecture everyone about it...
Let's hope this one will be different.
Cheats are called cheats for a reason. If something like doping in sports is not legal, then this shouldn't be either.
This judge is out of their own mind
There’s a reason legal nuance exists and a reason why legal precedent doesn’t decide every single case. While the two situations you described may be similar in spirit, it doesn’t mean they’re the same practically. In a civil suit, linking the actions of one party directly to damages being cited by the other party is what matters most. If you can’t link the two then there is no case, it is by far the most fundamentally important piece you need to start a civil suit. The judge(s) are likely siding with Phoenix because Bungie is not able to supply effective evidence that Phoenix’s product resulted in damages to Bungie.
no way you compared hard drugs to a line of code
@@WantedForTwerking performance enhancing drugs vs performance enhancing applications smh
@@WantedForTwerking no way you just missed the metaphor that hard
@@c0mplex564 Not understanding metaphors or hypotheticals is a telltale sign of low IQ.
the worst part is that the cheat company i practically giving Bungie another argument to go against them, they're practically digging their own grave
As some additional information for you, cheat developers for games not made in Southeast Asia most of them will use clever tricks to not ever touch the games code. They do this because of those world of Warcraft lawsuits. If the only thing bungie has for sure is that they broke TOS or enabled others to and bungie did in fact derive code directly against the code of the developer of said cheats (which is what sounds like they’re alleging), the cheat developer could win or at the very least not lose, because then at that point bungie would be in violation of intellectual property rights as it pertains to software code.
Im not a lawyer and could very well be talking out of my ass but I’ve seen this song and dance before. And just because gamers want the cheat developers to lose doesn’t usually mean they will. Usually just ends in a stalemate.
They admitted to breaking Bungie’s TOS, then claims Bungie broke their own TOS. I’d have to look up the WoW lawsuits, but that sounds like grasping at straws to me. Just trying to find a way to ‘not lose’, so they don’t go broke.
@@AyyFuji from what sweat was saying they are claiming bungie had used their code in their attempt to fight them which could actually work in their favor is what I’m saying, because if they did they’d be violating their intellectual property rights
This is going to be Nintendo vs Game Genie all again isn't it?
@@JoshDoingLinux If AJ win on the "Bungie violated our ToS/used our code" front, that simply allows Bungie to refile the previous suit with "AJ violated our ToS/used our code". The real sweet spot will be when AJ has to prove Bungie is using their code and not realize that some of Bungie's original code is in there as well.
@@_stonhinge there are two different arguments there. The TOS and Code Use are two different arguments and if either one of them can prove the other did that the TOS issue is almost worthless.
Cheaters need to be sued into oblivion
Bungie after filing a lawsuit against a guy who uses free cheats (it was just a prank)
precedents already have been set. Blizzard won lawsuits from companies like this who made bots in WoW. That will probably be cited. It will either be a TOS violation or in order for the code the aimbot to work you need to know how the Destiny code works which means a copyright theft of the source code to make the hack. Then you could also just see the hack in general and creators of hacks HAVE been arrested before for things outside of gaming. you are creating a hack using the source code to connect to the network and exploit. That could go to a federal level.
If the kid wants to be a smart ass, bleed em dry in court fees, get a few million in billable hours from the lawyers hitting him up every day needing attorney advice. Bungie has a full time legal staff at their disposal and like Blizzard has done, make an example for them and I say in the end make it a federal crime to use any hack.
In the end I say its either a TOS or Copyright lawsuit...or both. Probably the counter suit is to lessen the blow financially as Bungie could pay as well. Bungie will happily pay say $100,000 if the other guy needs to close down everything and also pay Millions so rather than pay say...$2,000,000 as an example, then he only needs to pay $1,900,000. Regardless. This kid is stupid AF.
wtf did aimjunkies hire saul or something
Even Saul would find the countersuit to be ridiculous
@@danilaglazaciov456 It's not ridiculous. The government doesn't take it lightly if a corporation breaks laws to get someone's information.
@@beta3522 it is a bit dumb tho because aim took bungies code (private info and breaking ToS) and re wrote it to make the cheat
@@howtoforidiots408 Still doesn't excuse what Bungie did
@@beta3522 good thing they didnt. games and anti cheat only access surface level information about your computer and the files currently running in the background. they dont care about your folder title tentacle porn, Beta, they care if youre running anything in the background that neither of their anti cheats will flag as a suspicious program, that ends up allowing you to cheat.
The clause is pretty common in anticheat software, which has to scan active files and see what they do
Epic games figured out how to see whos using cronus zen and other third party equipment
Its a back and fort thing. They’ll soon and i mean real soon figure out a way to bypass it.
@@WantedForTwerking that is true but i wouldnt wanna mess with epic im signed to an nda so i cannot disclose certain details but lets say itll be more than an ip ban 🙂
@@MrJtin69 hopefully a HWID ban then.
There are so many dataminers constantly going through the D2 code, that if there was a backdoor to see into and download off of your computers harddrive, we would know about it already.
Nah, that man is grasping at straws for literally anything.
When you download a game and the file is in use, your computer will let you know if an app is accessing more files than necessary.
If anything, the ability to use cheats shows that Bungie doesn't restrict your files, which is more prone to cheating. There is a term for it, but certain games will outright deny any file modification while the program/game is running. Genshin Impact is an example (gacha game, go figure).
It's more hilarious because they are crying that they had their cheats reverse engineered and that it violates their TOS... when they had to do the exact same thing to make those cheats to begin with.
And they are making cheats for an online only game that they knowingly make cheats for tracking other players through walls and what have you.
What part of them saying a single player game or offline only is the reccomend use of their cheats did they not understand when they made an aim bot?
I'm about to go rob a bank and just say "bank robbery isn't illegal"...the bank violated my privacy by recording me taking the money, and the employees trying to stop me actually caused me emotional damage.
We need Legal Eagle in this case. I'm not well versed enough in US digital laws.
Legal eagle 😂
This is why game companies should continue to issue hardware bans like Punkbuster did for the Battlefiled series early on. If you ban the mac address of the NIC it's pretty hard to come back from that.
i cant wait till we get a destiny show so i dont have to see whats going on on twitter
While waiting to testify as a expert in court, a defense lawyer literally made the claim that IT is borderline "Voodoo". The 60+ year judge nodded in agreement. I was shocked... Sooooo this isn't surprising
No wonder menus feel like they take longer to load. Bungie be looking in my drive.
Not...how it works.
Dude, did you finally clean up your room? That's crazy... Im too lazy to clean mine kekw
Cheating violates Bungie/Destiny terms of service.
Simple decision.
And? That's not a law.
It’s a law within the confines of Bungie’s software. The same way TOS allows social media companies to sell your data. It’s not a law, but you agreed to it by accepting disclaimer. Funny enough, TOS was updated with the last hotfix, it promoted to re-accept the TOS before logging back in
@@EliteBlackSash OK they still can't hack someone's account to get their information. Those are protected by the law. Even if people agree to a ToS, it's still not above the law.
@@beta3522 Uh.....Bungie wouldnt need to "hack" to get access to their D2 information in the first place. Any game files would already be theirs to look at and examine.
@@fluidwolf Not at all. The location of players is protected by the law. Bungie has no right to access that information.
A couple of recent updates ago where we were required to accept the new terms of service with Bungie, I actually read them. Took an hour but in short it states that battle eye will be monitoring your computer looking for cheat code only. They will also have access to your username, your pc serial number, the version of your operating system but supposedly not having access to your personal name. Also they will know your location. It also stated that arbitration is now gone and that you cannot sue Bungie in a class action lawsuit. That each individual business or person has to file their own legal matter in court. This is why people need to read prior to accepting any terms of service.
Okay so two big things I want to address;
Firstly, this guy has to prove all this in court regardless. He has to show that the information was actually downloaded and directed to a server at Bungie. Which he might be slick and try to use the data Bungie normally gets from you, that being your IP, what OS version and what hardware you're running. Like, surface level shit that isn't really identifying or invasive. Again, he has to prove it was his actual "confidential" files. Which is going to be interesting how this plays out.
Two; These claims are already incredibly laughable and near paranoid schizophrenic territory. Hear me out; Why is it now that Bungie is supposedly sucking personal files from your PC coming out *now* and from a *cheat maker* who's currently being sued? And not someone else? Why hasn't anyone else spoken out? We have people that exist right now that are so mindful of their privacy that they actively watch their network and outgoing *anything*. Anything being sent out from their PC is literally watched with big eyes. Someone else would have and should have spoken out. This sort of stuff would have been far bigger than the EGS Chinese outrage and the Riot Valorant Anti-Cheat... *riots*.
And lastly; I doubt Bungie is just going to give up on this. Bungie has Sony money and should go as hard as they need to to set a damn example. If Bungie wins, this makes it huge for video games and how cheats should be legally nuked from orbit.
Although I wish cheats would cease to exist. This is a never ending cycle even if bungie wins and continues to win. They will 100% stop trying to fight it and instead invest the most they can muster up to better their current anti-cheat solution. Just like every other game dev/company has done. I would LOVE to be proven wrong so I can finally run around in War-zone and not get sniped from underground.
@@WantedForTwerking Yeah that might end up being the case, sadly. I'm just naively optimistic and hoping that Bungie can win and set some sort of legal precedence to protect games from cheat makers.
Just the fact that these people can just spew terms of service and EULA's and whatnot to protect themselves from getting sued is just scummy as hell.
His room is blue now? Wasn’t it just red
Cheating is against ToS not illegal. Kind of funny that Bungie are breaking ToS too. This is interesting to watch unfold…
The cheaters could have a really good argument in court, they're just on incredibly thin ice and if they don't execute it properly they get shit stomped.
Ok and how about company policies? Those are basically ToS too so why do people get arrested for that?
agreeing to a ToS is a legally binding contract between you and the company of the service you are using. breaking tos is breaking a contract and you can and will be held liable for damages done by breaking said contract.
@@IvyDoomsday but if bungie breaks tos then what is the tos
@@omensoffate cheat makers tos wont hold up in court, otherwise every single game would be unable to protect their games against cheating cuz they would just sue the game devs. Bungie is protecting its intellectual property by doing things that "break" cheat makers tos. I cant make a contract up that says im allowed to steal from you whenever i want and force you to sign it. Inordee to protect their game, they were forced to agree to a tos, a contract signed under duress isnt valid.
I assume the claim that they are snooping around your computer is related to the fact that the anti cheat looks for cheat programs.
shouldn't they be going after battleye then?
@@berylbell8452 no because they want to win this case so they're going throw as much shit against the wall as they can and see what sticks. They don't actually care about battleye looking for cheats on your computer, they just want to make bungie look bad.
AimJunkie: Sells cheat programs.
Bungie: *Sales increase*
Judge: The fuck is the problem?
....
Also, bungie illegally accessing a personal PC without a warrant will definitely have them losing this battle.
bad take
i mean yeah that is like walking into someone's home without permission if that comes out to be true they will 100% lose the battle with that access you can see emails, CC, addresses and private files.
all anti cheat programs and games access your computer to view programs running in the background. if i boot up process hacker for black ops 3 or cheat engine for borderlands then boot up d2 without closing them, ill get flagged and banned instantly. thats the point of them.
You definitely run cheats if you’re siding with them lmao
@@_rifle_3805 LOL u tell me how to run cheats on console first bud. then ill do it just to spite u.
Can we all agree that regardless of this argument that it is the saddest thing ever to cheat on a game like Destiny 2 (or any game) just for the sake of stats and an ego stroke
Couldn't help but notice that wallpaper is sick man looks like your logo. Absolutely love it
Imagine a judge having to hear this out 💀
Really shows how everything just sucks, can't even use video games to get out of the bs of daily life cause you get into shit like this
"Cheating is not illegal" but it's literally against the TOS of destiny, no?
A countercountersuit where someone claims that their dog was beaten by the defendant
I guess it is true when you think about it. These outside companies aren't beholden to a EULA because they are creating external software (and there is no legal precedent for 'cheating in video game'). And technically this company is a software developer, who is still protected by the law for their own intellectual property. Pretty interesting case, all told!
The only possible thing I could see the guy spinning the surveillance thing with would be BatteEye
Cheaters/hackers deserved to be put in jail or get their rights removed from ever having a computer or get in touch of one
For the claims against bungie decompiling, they are basically saying that even though they stole code for bungie to modify, bungie still shouldn’t have stolen back the modified code.
This is sweats lawyer arc
Just a heads up everytime you talked there was a pretty noticeable ringing. Hopefully can get it fixed before next video.
We need to get Legal Eagle on this
Here's how Bungie is going to get around this: "We did not agree to your Terms of Service."
love the clean set up you got sweat lovin it
Now, as far as I understand it. If AimJunkies made software that violates Bungie's Terms of Service, it could invalidate their claim of Bungie using software they supposedly stole from AimJunkies. They would have to reserve engineered Bungie's code to create their product, and it would imply that Bungie is examing a modified version of their software. AimJunkies would then be liable for all damages as a result.
Then it goes without mentioning that if AimJunkies were developing software for Destiny 2, a game that has; no offline mode. *_Then they are already in breach of their own terms of service as you are attempting to defraud their users by selling something that could result in account termination._* Therefore anyone who bought their software could go after AimJunkies as well for breach of contract in a class-action if they were banned as a result of this.
the fact that no one has ever called out bungie about the LSLA tells me that what aimjunkie said was a lie, bungie would also have ZERO use of doing such a thing, i think its fabricated
Yeah I find it weird that not one person or data miner would have not noticed Bungie snopping after this many years
theyre totally after my 2016 colLege application rough drafts
@@durandus676 that would be terrible
A thing with anticheats is zzz of them work by scanning suspicious files on the computer or open files on the computer because a lot of cheats are external programs running on the same computer.
Im not sure but it could be what this lawsuit iss referring to, when it comes to him having his files stolen and reverse engineered.
No. A bungie employee bought the software, agreed to the TOS and then bungie decompiled the product, which is a breach of TOS. Ironically AimJunkies did not break TOS at any point, so sadly chances are high that bungie might lose against AimJunkies on that claim.
They should change anti cheat to do a kernel level scan for cheat engines before being allowed to log in. If you decline or fail you get put into a different lobby
"Don't access our source code even tho for these cheats to work we would have to modify the game's source code, but just ignore that"
“Bungee imc’s unauthorized access of mr. Mays confidential and private computer files has caused and will continue to Maude mr. may irreparable injury and damage” sounds like something from a random note
What files did they even steal from Mr. May? It literally said "without his knowledge" so how does he know? I understand if they won't say what they were directly because of evidence or whatever but I'm just curious on what's so important that Bungie allegedly stole files off of this computer
BattleEye is a kernel level anti-cheat software and part of the agreement you acknowledge when installing it is that it could identify a process list on your computer. We have all already agreed to let Bungie see what we're running.