Is there a Difference? Let me know below what your thoughts are! Knives in video⬇ amzn.to/3PSY1f8 amzn.to/3m1WJRe Full disclosure These are affiliated links I earn from qualifying purchases
In a _SURVIVAL_ situation, the *backwards* people will always have the advantage, not being burrdened with an overabundance of progression... X"D As for cheap or expensive: I'm still happy with the MORAKNIV set that I bought last year (your affiliate link went to a knife that was only available per 3 pieces for my country), and to that I say: "Spasseebah!" ;)
it looks obvious to me, in every comparison, that the backwards sharpened bevel looks rounded. The forward sharpened bevel looks like it was done by a machine - very uniform. They do look almost the same after burr removal though.
There is the idea that on muddy stones moving forward through the slurry will not only eat the burr but also the apex. That's a difference when finishing a knife.
Anyone other than a world championship , Olympic knife sharpener whining about the difference is just wanking off. And the irony of comparing burrs is pretty funny considering it's removed once created!!! People really need to improve their lives if arguing over burr size is their measure of affirmation......
Of note is the use of the blade... as a backwards strope "trailing edge" will promote the formation of the "Feather Bur"...soft steel and such for a barbers razor... exploited to shave hair but so fragile it must be stroped after each use...
Some years ago an oldtimer woodsman and survivalist gave me the best survival tip ever: "If you ever happen to get completely lost, and your live is in danger, just sit down and start sharpening your knife. In no time at least 5 guys will appear out of nowhere and tell you how to do it right. At least one of them should know a way out."
There’s a corollary I read the other day: The best way to get a question answered on the Internet is not, surprisingly, to post the question. It’s to post the wrong answer. At least a dozen people will immediately post responses correcting you.
Thanks Alex. Within the last 6 months, the folks at WorkSharp made a video testing edge leading vs edge trailing vs back&forth sharpening. The end result was... (SPOILER ALERT) Edge leading produced the sharpest and cleanest edge followed by trailing and finally back&forth. However, the differences amongst the three were so tiny that one needed a microscope or an edge tester to tell the difference. The real answer was that practice and consistency are more important than direction.
I was interested in finding the video you mentioned. If it's the right one, it was actually 11 months ago. Just a tip for anyone else looking for it on their channel.
At least from my experience, that is the case. Burr is overrated in the first place, it just helps you know you can stop, but it is not making anything sharper, the final geometry does. Doesn't matter direction, motion, whatever, if you sharp each side a litle at a time until you're satisfied. If you removed metal right and you got the right shape, that is it. It does make sense that different directions would make a microscopic difference in the finish of the very apex, but that is it. It wouldn't matter on a flat sheet, you're griding the metal out anyway by the same relative motion amd process in any direction. And an edge is just a flat strip of metal in each side ultimately, so I expect similar response to similar input. I just use whatever orientation seems to feel right for any knife and stone combination (based on geometry so i can actually get the blade in, based on how smooth or rough the movement feels), and I ain't yet got a knife (or axe) I can't make at least cut paper and shave even if rough on the skin after enough work, right out of a coarse stone. And sometimes even straight from a medium without a coarse first when that is all I had even though the blade was a mess, it just took longer and I left the really nasty chips.
@@louisvictor3473 Cliff Stamp (RIP) was well known for his insistence on sharpening without forming a burr and it seemed to work for him. Man could sharpen a knife on a brick.
Of course, WorkSharp, as producers of sharpening kits, have a vested interest in people sharpening their blades in the way that wears the sharpening kits faster; i.e. forward sharpening, so I don't trust that they didn't fudge the test if by no other reason than having someone who prefers forward-sharpening and thus has better skill with it doing the testing
As posted all over the comments... Direction doesn't seem to matter much. I just feel that with edge leading you have a higher risk of biting into the stone and taking a chip out of it. Hence edge trailing would be a bit saver for the stones.
I sharpen on the belt grinder, most of the time, leading edge on fine grit belts (usually 3M Trizact). If the knife ain't gonna dig into a soft belt running at high speed, it definitely ain't gonna dig into a hard, flat stone. Perhaps your fear stems from the fact you're pushing too hard on the knife when sharpening? You're supposed to let the stone do the work; otherwise you'll just be flexing that apex to and fro, and you'll never end up with a sharp edge.
I haven't watched the video but I find it easier to hold form and angle when sharpening with edge leading. It's easier to end up with an inconsistent bevel, and an unintentional convex edge if you have the edge trailing. Mostly it's harder to feel and maintain the whole surface of the bevel on the stone while trailing. I do always trail on my final passes to help thin out and start working the burr back and forth. If you couldn't tell, I'm not that deep into the world of sharpening and my skills are fairly limited
@rolls_8798 Yeah but you're spot on though. You can feel it better with edge leading. A simple way to find your strop angle is to VERY, VERY LIGHTLY edge lead at a shallow angle, raising the angle as you slide the blade. As soon as it catches (the same way you FEEL your angle when sharpening), stop raising the angle and strop edge trailing (never stropping edge leading... you'll destroy your strop).
As someone who's only just got into knives and started watching your vids while you were on hiatus, I'm really glad to see you back making more content.
My grandfather (wordworker/carver, longtime mechanic & carpenter, outdoorsman, knife maker) taught me that the type of stroke is somewhat tailored to the application and edge type of the knife as well as how badly the edge is banged up. For touch ups of a v-grind, trailing edge is enough on a stone, deburr, then trailing edge on a strop to finish. For repairing a damaged/chipped v-edge, combination of leading and trailing edge is more efficient at removing material, then deburr, then strop/polish. Convex grinds I'm pretty sure he said always needs to be trailing edge strokes. I wish he was still around today (besides just me missing him) because his experience/wisdom could definitely help a lot of people. The man could get ANYTHING sharp enough that it could shave paper just free handing on a couple stones. He didn't like guided systems or rod based systems.
He was also a huge proponent of regular usage of a strop (particularly for his woodcarving knives) as maintenance instead of waiting until a knife was thrashed before resharpening. While he never really focused on achieving a polished edge, invariably most of his regularly used knives ended up having a mirror finish. His biggest bit of advice was to not rush/force it. Let the abrasive do the work and just focus on consistency.
One weird thing he did that I'm not sure is generally applicable was when repairing ingot stainless steel blades was doing some of the deburring on the end of a 2x4. I get that it breaks the burr off, but not sure what the logic behind that was.
@@marshalllee2509 -- Yup, just here to echo Marshall's observation about how great a comment this was. Also, quite a lot of old school sharpeners pull the blade through a piece of soft wood to deburr after sharpening. It wasn't just granddad.
What I would be really interested in is a comparison of sharpening handle-to-tip vs tip-to-handle. This will cause the direction of the scratch pattern to be reversed, and I have been wondering if that would result in different performance on pull vs. push cuts.
Yes! The direction of sharpening that will determine the diagonal direction of the edge will effect the cut in push and pull. You can test it with your finger to see which direction the edge bite more. But at higher grit like above 3k grit, it doesn't really matter since you will have a little to none microscopic saw tooth on the edge because at that point the edge is smooth and fine. This biting direction also won't matter when cutting harder materials, it helps with soft and slick material like plastic and tomato skin which means the direction of sharpening from heel to tip or tip to heel are useful for kitchen and utility knives. Push and pull action on sharpening will bite equally on the push and pull cut.
Only thing I'll say, is you want to change angle for each grit. At least until your super fine grits. That will help give you the cleanest flattest edge.
these results lead me to believe one thing: you are incredibly consistent with your technique and sharpening either forwards or backwards will yield minimal differences in sharpness. just my 2 cents
From your magnified shots it looked to me that going backwards formed a more consistent and uniform burr. I use both methods depending on the blade shape and my ability to remain consistent with my technique. So for example if it's easier for me to remain consistent, specifically with the sharpening angle, pushing away from me than I do that. So one side of the blade is done forward and the other backwards. I do this alot with tantos, longer blades and knives that have a portion of serrations I have to work around. Basically I go whatever direction I can maintain my sharpening angle most consistently. Doesn't seem to be a wrong answer as long as your knife is sharp when your done.
Glad to see you posting videos ! Been sharpening for over 40 years, mostly freehand. Still find things that cause me to modify my technique every so often. My conclusion; as long as you are consistent with the angle & light pressure, it doesn't matter how you do it. Remove metal till it's sharp and some people will say you're doing it wrong.
if whatever different ways you are using still gets the knife sharp, then who's to say which way is the right way. if it gets the knife sharp to how you want it and need it to be then you are doing it on how its suppose to be done.........to get it sharp as fuck!
I sharpen both forwards, backwards and circular. I finish on strop backwards and/or steel forwards. I have stropped on leather, old aluminum rod dirty pieces of plastic, green compound loaded leather, anything that I thought would work. With the caveat that I can only achieve the same sharpness on a perfectly smooth or very close to perfectly smooth honing rod they all work. I can not get quite as sharp finishing on a honing steel with a lot of texture, ceramic rod or diamond impregnated honing rod. I like relatively simple knife steel like 14c28n, cruwear. Poor results trying to finish s90v on anything but a diamond loaded strop. As far as sharpening I have tryed water stones, 1x30 sander, wicked edge sharpener, my favorite is just freehand with 3x8 diamond plates holding the knife with1 hand andthe plate with the other kicked back in my garage chair. Bevels probably a little more convex, takes a little longer but more enjoyable and still whittles hair when finished.
Thanks for the interesting video. My father used a circular motion... and so do I sometimes. It worked for him and it seems good enough to me. If I'm using a really fine, hard stone in good condition I will generally apply my finishing strokes by pushing the edge forward as this has seemed to give me a shaving edge more often. If the stone is not flat... or if it is particularly coarse or if it has protruding grit.... I pull the edge backwards so that the imperfections are less likely to catch or damage the edge. If I am using abrasive paper for sharpening, I drag the edge backwards also. Life was less stressful when I didn't think about perfect cutting edges and the theoretical best sharpening technique. I just grabbed my knife and went hunting. If the knife was blunt I'd maybe use a stone and then do a few licks down a sharpening steel. Over the last few years (the RUclips era) I've been disappointed when my super-sharp knives became blunt in a short time when field dressing game (particularly after cutting around the hocks). So one thing I often do now is to use a softer blade like might be used in a meat processing plant and I restore the edge as on a butcher's steel when it feels blunt. (I must state here that no matter what anybody says, at least some common sharpening steels DO remove metal from the edge. You can see the shavings and if you look at the edge of the newly sharpened blade through a magnifier you can see the cutting pattern). More recently I've tried to set aside my fixation for "shaving sharp" and concentrate on "durable" .... sharpening to get an edge on a field dressing knife that will allow me to field dress for as long as possible without having to change knives or sharpen them. I'm currently going for a toothier edge made by a coarse diamond steel. It seems that some guys are having a good experience using serrated knives for field dressing, and while I have no wish to carry a serrated knife, I think most hunting knives have some degree of serration.... it is just a matter of selecting how much serration by selecting the most suitable grade of grit. Cutting happens when enough force is applied to a small area. A finely sharpened blade presents less area to the material being cut. A serrated blade may apply all the force to just one or a few serrations which really can make things tear apart. Maybe I'm on the wrong track, but I will see how the next few hunts work out. My ancestors butchered game with bits of rock. I have steel.... I just have to decide on the best type of edge for what I do. Best wishes from New Zealand.
I always sharpen forwards as this is how I learned to do it 30 or more years ago. I also learned never to put too much pressure on the blade as this turns whatever burr might form. My distinct experience through the years though is that sharpening forwards is much more important when sharpening cheaper softer steels which are more prone to burr formation than good high quality steels.
Based on your comment and several others I think I'll try lightening up on my pressure. At least when I'm not removing a big nick or something. Also I hate blades with an inward curving belly shape, because they're a royal pain for me to sharpen. I once took a folder and reefed on it untill I flatend the curve completely. 17 years experience total, but only 2 or so since I actually learned how to sharpen-(I was a 12 year old with a hand file and most of my knives were train wrecks after I got done with them.)
@@scojo6377 For recurved blades (inward curving belly) I highly recommend using a round ceramic rod in a somewhat similar grit progression as the Lansky Turnbox ("medium grit" and "fine grit"). For doing a new bevel better use a diamond rod, this rods remove more material. Or use a round dowel like a broomstick, wrapped in sandpaper. This makes the sharpening of recurved blades a piece of cake. For stropping I recommend a narrow strop (1" - 2") or stropping on the edge of your strop. Some recommend sharpening recurved blades on the edge of the very same whetstone you use for straight blades. It is doable, but using rods or sandpaper on a dowel makes sharpening recurved blades a piece of cake.
@@MAGAMAN it's complicated. 2 inch blade is the legal carry length. Flick knives, switchblades and assisted openers are not allowed. Locking blades are not allowed either. You can't open carry a sheath knife but if you are doing outdoors stuff then the police turn a blind eye. I do building work and don't use Stanley knives (box cutting knives) but use various knives of various lengths and, once again, the law looks the other way. I brought a few knives and had them imported. A butterfly knife didn't make it and I knew I was in trouble. Sure enough after a few months the police knocked on my door and I had to go to the station, had my rights read, got a freebie lawyer and was questioned. Waited another few weeks and was told they were going to take no further action but I had to do a knife awareness course. For a butterfly knife. But if I'd found a retailer in the UK who sold butterfly knives I would not have had any trouble...not allowed to take it outside my property but could all it a part of a collection or some such shit. As I say, complicated. Leatherman multitools are illegal carry because the blade locks. I said to the pi..policeman that the locking law is fucking bullshit because collapsing sharp blades are fucking lethal. He agreed. He didn't even want my stupid case because there is a lot more dangerous shit going on than a 50 something year old bloke who mistakenly imported an illegal weapon for his collection.
In my experience, the difference between the two is so little that I can't separate them consistently enough to determine if it is stroke direction or some other technical failure. If you have a consistent stroke, it won't matter which direction it unless circumstances, such as bevel grind type, demands a specific stroke.
Very small difference, but from the video the backwards looked better. This video you have made is very useful since I'm sure many people like me wonder about that! Thank you!!!
Agree. Backwards looks a lot cleaner and crisper, even the scratch pattern looks more uniform. Looks like the tiniest of burr remaining on the leading edge blade.
I think that is also the result of “pushing” steel away from the edge instead of into the edge, but either way they still sharpen, but backwards is my preferred way simply because it’s better looking and in my case, sharper too
This is such a pleasantly scientific approach to knife sharpening. It’s so refreshing and enjoyable when I find channels like yours that take a proper scientific approach. Thank you so much for all the work you put into these videos and for addressing every question and concern the comment section has, no matter how dumb sometimes lol.
9:58 im a newb. In the referenced shot it is said that there is no difference. But to me, they look significantly different. The top one definitely shows a ridge shadow along the top of the blade that is not on the bottom. It looks very much like the burr we saw in the previous shots.
I usually sharpen backwards and forwards for sake of efficiency. I'm sure it's not going to create the "perfect edge" but I can get it shaving sharp in a short period of time, which is all that I'm really after. A lot of people argue about the best way to sharpen things, but I think it's down to whatever feels comfortable to the individual and allows them to maintain a fairly consistent angle.
I have also found that there is very little difference between edge leading and edge trailing, especially on whetstones. Now where does it make a difference, if you use a belt, edge trailing is great because, under the right lighting conditions, you can see the burr form. Seeing the burr form is very helpful when working with damaged knives, it lets you know when you have apexed the damaged areas. This is one of those myths in sharpening, along with "you must sharpen to at least 7k grit, or it just won't cut" or "my pull though sharpener does a great job". Thanks for the video!! all your videos are great!!!
You are the man! I must admit it that very few people could have tackled this question with any legitimacy, but you seem to confirm that sharpening direction, if it matters at all, is adequately handled by de-burring steps normally performed as a finishing step. Therefore, the direction really becomes a matter of preference for the person manually doing the motions. Good work!
The parallel photos at 10:05 show a difference on the very edge. The forward sharpened one seems to have a small burr or a different shade along the edge, wide about 2 or 3 times the width between adjacent scratches. The backwards sharpened blade shows absolutely no visible burr or shade on the very edge. However I would agree it’s not significant for practical purposes. I was always told to use back and forth movements with medium light pressure for sharpening (which ensures much better stability of the sharpening angle along the process) and only go backwards at the very end for a few light finishing strokes on the stone on each side for some burr removal. Then optionally, repeat the whole process on a higher grit stone. Then hone it (obviously only backwards) on leather or a cardboard sheet with optionally a polishing compound for the final touch.
What about sharpening in both directions? Might the burr and sharpness be the same as in just one direction, but the sharpening takes less time because of the higher efficiency of the motion?
Yep. That’s exactly what I do. Have done it that way ever since I watched a few videos by people who make their living sharpening knives and they all said, “The question I get all the time is, what direction do I pull it across the stone?” Their answer? “Doesn’t matter.” They do it both ways because it’s twice as fast. Plenty of hobbyists who’ve figured this out as well. Go watch some of Michael Christy’s old videos. Insane attention to detail and encyclopedic knowledge of sharpening. Going to tell me he’s doing it wrong? How many people do you think use their guided sharpeners in only one direction? Or rewire their Worksharps to run the motor in the reverse direction?
For material removal, going both ways is fastest. Then just touch it up for the last few strokes going fwd only, to minimise the burr, before going to the strop to get rid of most of the last of it.
10:08 there is a huge difference. Forward apex has consistent bump on top. (Bump..? Or is just not clear cut) Backwards apex is clearcut at the top. The backwards asked should be sharper when you compare these 2 edges.
From a minor standpoint forward looks a little better. Thanks so much for answering these seemingly small points with your in-depth research and photos. Cheers
Ten minutes ago I finished watching another of your videos and added a comment. I felt I couldnt leave this one without adding the same comment i.e. Thank you very much for your extremely informative videos !!
If I could heart this video instead of thumbs upping it I would. I've been toying with the idea of sharpening my pocket knife with stopping strokes using sandpaper followed by Bark River compound and I can't seem to get it as sharp as I can on my DMT guided diamond sharpener. Even though it's fully apexed but at least now I know it can be done with good results. Thankyou for this!
I thought backwards looked better on all accounts. However, the difference is likely so small it can't be measured. What I have learned is it is easier to maintain the angle of the bevel going backwards and sharpen more even. It also prevents a slip and slice when you are doing it quickly. Honestly, I don't think it really matters enough for it to matter. I will keep doing backwards as it works better for me. I used to always do forward and was able to get them kinda sharp. Now that I do backwards I get them scalpel sharp everytime and do not have the risk of slicing myself due to a slip.
That's what I thought. Backwards is more control and smoother. Blade wont dig in to the whetstone. And forwards pictures all looked like they had more burs so idk if he just mixed them up when talking
Thank you for your video. Being fairly new at sharpening, I realize that I still have a lot to learn. However, your video answered one big question: Am I doing it wrong? Forward, backward, both, or in a rotational direction, it seems to be what you are comfortable with. And the results you like. Thank you.
Even if I use my Lansky guided system, where I use to shatpen in both directions, I raise a burr. Feels like the burr has nothing to do with the direction of the sharpening motion. The burr will rise on the oposite side of the apex, or, said in different terms, on the side that is looking away from the force that removes steel. Sounds logical. Nice video of yours. I was missing your work and appreciate it a lot. I have learned a lot about sharpening knives from your videos, even came into stropping - and started freehand benchstone sharpening. I used the Lansky guided sharpening system and later the Turnbox, everything because I have seen your videos about this systems. Now I use the Work Sharp "Benchstone" with two diamond plates in 320 and 600 grit and a ceramic plate with about 1000 - 1200 grit. Started out with the angle guides, but after a short time I was able to use this benchstone free hand. I want to thank you for starting my interest into learning something new, I really appreciate it. Stay safe everybody, and stay blessed. Greetings from Germany!
In my first hand experiences ..., Yes, the size of the bur makes a difference when it breaks off. Larger bur will leave a wider apex for additional refining. In my experiences, ET (Edge Trailing) produces a bur more quickly and more easily than EL (Edge Leading). This may be positive or negative situ depending. The size of the bur is directly relevant to abrasive grit size, the amount of pressure applied and how long you keep grinding (pushing material past the apex). To attempt to say one method is right or wrong is misunderstanding the fact that the results are simply sometimes different and also dependant on the steel and geometry. I typically use both EL and ET in a sharpening progression.
Good video showing key information; I spent some time working with a butcher; did most everything you covered while maintaining his knives, but the final step was to use the leather (or Fabric) strop to put a polished edge on the knife. It only takes a moment, but the results gave a far better cut,
The muscles in the arm have more precision control in the backstroke this is know in many crafting cutting tasks. More control leads to greater control of the precision burr…if you want it small that is easy if you want it big that is also easy… what do you want…it is up to you - I vote that more control - backstroke is the greater winner! Love your videos; I have learned a lot!
The angles of the microscopes shown at 00:40 are not the same. They're actually being misused to show a field longer than the width of the areas directly under the microscope. So there is a focused are that gets progressively out of focus two times in different directions. The edge shown with the "sharpen into the blade" method has a bur but it's quickly blurred out of focus. Using your tools optimally and competently would likely persuade. Let me watch the video more to see if your case is made.
0:41 you can clearly see that the top edge of the blade is much rougher sharpening forward than backwards. For a knife to be sharp, you need good straight bevels at the right angles, but much more important for precision is that top edge to cleanly begin a cut. Thats why you hone a knife, not to sharpen, only to keep that bery top edge straight and clean.
my teacher, who was by reckoning, an absolute master of the craft, reverse sharpened on stone, but toward himself on the steel, so technically forward. He did it because he could get his rhythm right. I still haven't reached his level, but the techniques he passed to me have allowed me to hone even the dullest knives into usefulness. Knowing I may one day pass this knowledge on is one of my few joys.
If you ever watch professional japanese knife sharpeners that work in the markets that sell hand made high carbon knives they use a back and forth push pull on a stone. They do hundreds of knives a week and its for damn sure they get them shaving sharp. I think they use a combination bull and sharkskin strop as well for finishing them.
I have always wondered about this as I have seen different knife 'experts' do it different ways and wondered why and who was right. I use forward sharpening and it works well for me. Thanks for the vid.
I really like your videos man. You put in lots of effort to make concise, entertaining videos that tackle the important questions. Keep up the great work.
The images of the both blades together after stropping at the 10:00 mark, appears to show a concave shadow just behind the forwards edge. This seems to indicate deformation along the edge (a burr) than has not been stropped out. One might assume the metal is weekend by plastic deformation. For wood & metal working tool sharpening, I sharpen in the forward direction, probably as that is what I was taught. This is not knife sharpening though. Anyway, I would say that in over 50 years of sharpening hand tools, the metallurgy of blades differs. Some blades appear to produce very large burr indeed, while other are brittle and prone to grains chipping out. In tool sharpening, we tend to sharpen only one bevel side which is the side that is ground and predominantly worked on a stone. The other face is only lightly worked to remove burr. This tends to promote a large burr being formed. So we will occasionally remove this burr then work the bevel more and so on until we can raise a burr along the whole edge. I the tend to do a final burr removal and leave it at that, regarding stropping as a waste of time as the toll will soon need resharpening again anyway. However knives are bevelled on both sides. If the blade is bent or badly worn or chipped, I will 1st straighten the blade, then re-establish the basic bevels with course paper stuck to thick flat glass, so that cutting edge is straight. Then begin sharpening alternate bevels using wet & dry paper over foam with reverse strokes. Repeating this until I have a sharp edge along the whole length, then going to a finer grade. This way, there is no substantial burr developed on one side, and those difficult grain dropouts tend to be eliminated. Presumably because the pressure is more spread across & along the sharpening surface. I don't know if you have come across this grain drop out issue, I have only one (filleting) knife that is impossible to sharpen on a hand stone for this reason. I have taken knives down to 1000+ grit & strop but for general practical bushcraft, fishing or kitchen use, that seem rather unnecessary. Maybe, 400 to 800 grit would be ample for most people, not everyone though I guess.
The edges were the same. Its just a lighting artifact as well as two slightly different angles. A macro lens like this has a focus plane less than a human hair so aligning everything up exactly the same is almost impossible.
Good experimentt. There's some random variables there, could address with a split sample test on two sets of randomly selected knives. Then apply fixed changes to efforts of burr production and removal. There are some interesting sharpening tools that can be used to produce consistent angle etc.
Thank you for sharing your wisdom and experience with us. I'm still trying to learn myself, but I think I noticed something in some of the microscopic photographs. I'm not sure if it matters at all, but I think I saw a secondary burr at the bottom of the apex away from the tip when sharpening tip first.
I more often push than pull, but have not paid much attention to the difference. Just how I have learned and done it over the years I guess. I also use circular moves which I find easier with smaller hand held stones when outdoors to get the edge back after some use. When using sharpening device such as the KME I sometimes also do back and forth.
1:55 OH MY THAT HURT but I did that to my work sharp because I forgot I have to be careful with that LOL thankfully it was minor scratches and it's fine. I might try sanding it down a bit to create a new surface!
I tired this out some time ago on a knife i made and quenched but didn't temper it. Always had a burr on it that i couldn't remove even by cutting across wood and other materials. I had to order a very fine stone and i noticed with sharpening backward the knives always cut a bit rough and the burr was a bit more catchable with fingernails. Going forwards left a little bit smaller burr. Stone grit and steel hardness also matter tho. On the super fine stone i can't get rid of the burr sharpening backwards, i just have to do it froward and go from hard pressure to very very light.
I am very OCD about keeping my knives insanely sharp. Sharpening is therapeutic to me so I enjoy it. I have gotten similar results going forwards or backwards. I do prefer to sharpen backwards and I often will use different strops with various grit compounds to hone so I kinda just get used to going backwards.
I'm confused. At 9:34, it sure looks to me like the 2 blades don't have the same sharpness. ?? Yet you say the one sharpened forwards has the burr removed. ?? Looks like a roll-over to me. ??? I am watching several of your videos. Trying to learn how to use my sharpening stone. THANKS for the training!
I think I see a difference with the burr made in the forward direction, the edge is provided with very fine notches! with the burr made in the backward direction, the cut is much cleaner! I also find that the burr curls nicer and more evenly over the entire length!
All knives are magnetized until you demagnetize them. Some of your burrs are "klingons" made worse by residual magnetism. In my profession as a metalworker, we have to demagnetize everything we make out of steel. I bought a demagnetizer for home use years ago from Harbor Freight, and I demag all my knives before sharpening. Magnetic shavings get in the way of sharpening.
I sharpen on a horizontal belt, relatively slow speed, it running away from me. Used like this I can actually see the burr forming on various parts of the blade as I sharpening so I can tell if it's even without having to stop and touch it. I use a leather belt on the same machine to strop so burr removal is quick and easy.
my comment will be towards the end of the video. i think your finished with both knives, you say it doesnt look like there is much of a difference. i havent read any of the other comments thats only because i have absolutely no interest in what haters think or have to say. that being said, if there arent haters talking shit, wonderful... my friend, to me and what im seeing, there is definitely a difference. it looks like the edge of the forward sharpened knife has an ever so slight burr coming off the edge where the backwards edge looks friggin better than factory. i just barely started watching your channel and as a knife enthusiast this channel is of the top 3 that i enjoy very much. for the sake of sounding like i know you or that ive been watching your channel for years, i just wanna say that i hope to see you creating informative videos with a touch of some funny ass shit for a long time to come. take good care of yourself....
As a novice I found more success sharpening backwards from personal experience, I think it's more newbie friendly? Also tips for tips? I've been depending on luck when sharpening the tip, there's always seem to be a small part that's not quite as sharp as the rest...
Hey Alex. The scratch patterns are different on both and also (and I might be wrong) but the sharpened backwards looks crispier, while I can still see burr on the other one. Great video as always 😁👌
A bit of salt here. If you look at the picture of two sharpened sides, for example at 4:45, you will see that you maintained the angle sharpening in the forward direction much better, and in the backboard direction you have a bow in your edge. If you look at the picture in the forward direction it is nice and in focus completely. But the picture of the backboard sharpening is not in focus completely, yet the part of the edge closer to the burr is in focus. Am I correct?
When I first got into sharpening, I was searching the internet for all of the best ways to get a knife razor sharp and found so many different "best practices" and "correct" ways of doing it. Which grit do you start with, how long until you move onto the next grit, how many grits along the way you need, the best angle, the direction(s), should you strop, should you use compound on the strop, etc. After years of trying different things and seeing all of the "experts" spout off their secret knowledge, I've found that there are a few key steps to sharpening a blade and it isn't complicated. I use about 2-4 different grits, sometimes I sharpen in both directions, sometimes I strop, every time I get a very sharp knife.
I been sharpening knives, axes, chisels etc.. since i was around 15?(36 now) I go forwards some times backwards. Some times i do both.. As long as it gets sharp enough for your needs, it does not mater... But as a beginner i would suggest going backwards only to learn the techniques... (only reason being that you save on straps...)
I use a KME system, and use a scrubbing motion, which seems to work well with any type of stone, but of course trailing strokes with films and leather strops.
I've been watching this channel for a little while now, and ended up subbing. Since this vid I'm pretty sure I've seen you do both on occasion. I really don't hink it makes a difference, especially considering you are so thorough with the process (including stropping).
I have worked in a lapidary, sizing and conditioning a variety of materials using abrasives. I found that there is an inherent plasticity to many materials including steels. In order to demonstrate this, try to sharpen an piece of plastic...(try uhmwpe). Good information!
If you’re having trouble feeling for the burr, one tip I use that I don’t hear mentioned much is to use a flashlight. If there’s a burr the light will barely reflect back at you
Wonderful information! I always wondere, but go back and forth anyways not believing there is any difference. You took the time to confirm it for us. We are in debted.
When I was first taught to sharpen, I was shown a circular motion, and we never stropped. My dad, who taught me, had learned from his dad, who, among other pursuits, made cabinetry. Not infrequently, wood workers used to sharpen wide, straight edges (plane irons, chisels, etc.) using a rotary motion while maintaining the angle. I don't sharpen that way any more. I have always removed the burr pulling "backwards." If the burr wouldn't go away, I have concluded the blade steel was too soft and ductile. I do think there is a little remaining on the "forward" direction blade. But, the blade sizes may be part of what is happening.
I'm trying it the other way now.....just for fun. I sharpen forward usually. I like your comments in one of your other videos about this. So cheers 🍻 to trying something new. Thank-you keep up the good work can't wait to see more!
On most any kind of powered wheel, belt or disk its wise to go edge trailing. And I like the motion to be 90 degrees to the edge for best bite when cutting. On a strop you have to go edge trailing. So I just got used to edge trailing on everything, including the kitchen knife honing steel. That is definitely safest!
Assuming the knife steel has some ductility characteristics, my assumption is that pushing the edge into the stone would compress the ductile material, bunching the carbon crystals at the edge; while pulling the edge across the stone would elongate the ductile material, increasing the distance between the carbon crystals, therefore having a detrimental effect on edge retention and sharpness longevity. Or am I over analyzing it?
Is there a Difference? Let me know below what your thoughts are!
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In a _SURVIVAL_ situation, the *backwards* people will always have the advantage, not being burrdened with an overabundance of progression... X"D
As for cheap or expensive: I'm still happy with the MORAKNIV set that I bought last year (your affiliate link went to a knife that was only available per 3 pieces for my country), and to that I say: "Spasseebah!" ;)
it looks obvious to me, in every comparison, that the backwards sharpened bevel looks rounded. The forward sharpened bevel looks like it was done by a machine - very uniform. They do look almost the same after burr removal though.
There is the idea that on muddy stones moving forward through the slurry will not only eat the burr but also the apex. That's a difference when finishing a knife.
Anyone other than a world championship , Olympic knife sharpener whining about the difference is just wanking off. And the irony of comparing burrs is pretty funny considering it's removed once created!!! People really need to improve their lives if arguing over burr size is their measure of affirmation......
Of note is the use of the blade... as a backwards strope "trailing edge" will promote the formation of the "Feather Bur"...soft steel and such for a barbers razor... exploited to shave hair but so fragile it must be stroped after each use...
Some years ago an oldtimer woodsman and survivalist gave me the best survival tip ever:
"If you ever happen to get completely lost, and your live is in danger, just sit down and start sharpening your knife.
In no time at least 5 guys will appear out of nowhere and tell you how to do it right.
At least one of them should know a way out."
Man, that's funny! 😆
😝🤣
Love It!!!
My new life goal is to wander the woods lost giving sharpening advice.
There’s a corollary I read the other day:
The best way to get a question answered on the Internet is not, surprisingly, to post the question. It’s to post the wrong answer. At least a dozen people will immediately post responses correcting you.
Thanks Alex.
Within the last 6 months, the folks at WorkSharp made a video testing edge leading vs edge trailing vs back&forth sharpening. The end result was... (SPOILER ALERT)
Edge leading produced the sharpest and cleanest edge followed by trailing and finally back&forth. However, the differences amongst the three were so tiny that one needed a microscope or an edge tester to tell the difference. The real answer was that practice and consistency are more important than direction.
I was interested in finding the video you mentioned. If it's the right one, it was actually 11 months ago. Just a tip for anyone else looking for it on their channel.
At least from my experience, that is the case. Burr is overrated in the first place, it just helps you know you can stop, but it is not making anything sharper, the final geometry does. Doesn't matter direction, motion, whatever, if you sharp each side a litle at a time until you're satisfied. If you removed metal right and you got the right shape, that is it.
It does make sense that different directions would make a microscopic difference in the finish of the very apex, but that is it. It wouldn't matter on a flat sheet, you're griding the metal out anyway by the same relative motion amd process in any direction. And an edge is just a flat strip of metal in each side ultimately, so I expect similar response to similar input.
I just use whatever orientation seems to feel right for any knife and stone combination (based on geometry so i can actually get the blade in, based on how smooth or rough the movement feels), and I ain't yet got a knife (or axe) I can't make at least cut paper and shave even if rough on the skin after enough work, right out of a coarse stone. And sometimes even straight from a medium without a coarse first when that is all I had even though the blade was a mess, it just took longer and I left the really nasty chips.
I belive they actually tested the sharpness with that sharpness gauge
@@louisvictor3473 Cliff Stamp (RIP) was well known for his insistence on sharpening without forming a burr and it seemed to work for him. Man could sharpen a knife on a brick.
Of course, WorkSharp, as producers of sharpening kits, have a vested interest in people sharpening their blades in the way that wears the sharpening kits faster; i.e. forward sharpening, so I don't trust that they didn't fudge the test if by no other reason than having someone who prefers forward-sharpening and thus has better skill with it doing the testing
I’ve learned nothing from this but have been highly entertained so mission accomplished.
As posted all over the comments... Direction doesn't seem to matter much. I just feel that with edge leading you have a higher risk of biting into the stone and taking a chip out of it. Hence edge trailing would be a bit saver for the stones.
I sharpen leading edge on diamond and trailing on Arkansas Stone. It just feels right. Not scientific, but it does prevent biting.
I sharpen on the belt grinder, most of the time, leading edge on fine grit belts (usually 3M Trizact). If the knife ain't gonna dig into a soft belt running at high speed, it definitely ain't gonna dig into a hard, flat stone.
Perhaps your fear stems from the fact you're pushing too hard on the knife when sharpening? You're supposed to let the stone do the work; otherwise you'll just be flexing that apex to and fro, and you'll never end up with a sharp edge.
I haven't watched the video but I find it easier to hold form and angle when sharpening with edge leading.
It's easier to end up with an inconsistent bevel, and an unintentional convex edge if you have the edge trailing. Mostly it's harder to feel and maintain the whole surface of the bevel on the stone while trailing.
I do always trail on my final passes to help thin out and start working the burr back and forth.
If you couldn't tell, I'm not that deep into the world of sharpening and my skills are fairly limited
@rolls_8798 Yeah but you're spot on though. You can feel it better with edge leading. A simple way to find your strop angle is to VERY, VERY LIGHTLY edge lead at a shallow angle, raising the angle as you slide the blade. As soon as it catches (the same way you FEEL your angle when sharpening), stop raising the angle and strop edge trailing (never stropping edge leading... you'll destroy your strop).
Indeed
As someone who's only just got into knives and started watching your vids while you were on hiatus, I'm really glad to see you back making more content.
Thanks appreciate it!
My grandfather (wordworker/carver, longtime mechanic & carpenter, outdoorsman, knife maker) taught me that the type of stroke is somewhat tailored to the application and edge type of the knife as well as how badly the edge is banged up. For touch ups of a v-grind, trailing edge is enough on a stone, deburr, then trailing edge on a strop to finish. For repairing a damaged/chipped v-edge, combination of leading and trailing edge is more efficient at removing material, then deburr, then strop/polish. Convex grinds I'm pretty sure he said always needs to be trailing edge strokes.
I wish he was still around today (besides just me missing him) because his experience/wisdom could definitely help a lot of people. The man could get ANYTHING sharp enough that it could shave paper just free handing on a couple stones. He didn't like guided systems or rod based systems.
He was also a huge proponent of regular usage of a strop (particularly for his woodcarving knives) as maintenance instead of waiting until a knife was thrashed before resharpening. While he never really focused on achieving a polished edge, invariably most of his regularly used knives ended up having a mirror finish. His biggest bit of advice was to not rush/force it. Let the abrasive do the work and just focus on consistency.
One weird thing he did that I'm not sure is generally applicable was when repairing ingot stainless steel blades was doing some of the deburring on the end of a 2x4. I get that it breaks the burr off, but not sure what the logic behind that was.
Absolutely love your Comment
@@marshalllee2509 thanks dude. Just trying to pass on (to the best of my ability) the important lessons he taught me.
@@marshalllee2509 -- Yup, just here to echo Marshall's observation about how great a comment this was. Also, quite a lot of old school sharpeners pull the blade through a piece of soft wood to deburr after sharpening. It wasn't just granddad.
you educating us on anything and everything, big or small with knives is always doing some useful my man!
What I would be really interested in is a comparison of sharpening handle-to-tip vs tip-to-handle. This will cause the direction of the scratch pattern to be reversed, and I have been wondering if that would result in different performance on pull vs. push cuts.
I like this idea. Been seeing a number of viewpoints from various experts and it can be overwhelming.
Yes! The direction of sharpening that will determine the diagonal direction of the edge will effect the cut in push and pull. You can test it with your finger to see which direction the edge bite more. But at higher grit like above 3k grit, it doesn't really matter since you will have a little to none microscopic saw tooth on the edge because at that point the edge is smooth and fine. This biting direction also won't matter when cutting harder materials, it helps with soft and slick material like plastic and tomato skin which means the direction of sharpening from heel to tip or tip to heel are useful for kitchen and utility knives. Push and pull action on sharpening will bite equally on the push and pull cut.
Only thing I'll say, is you want to change angle for each grit. At least until your super fine grits. That will help give you the cleanest flattest edge.
these results lead me to believe one thing: you are incredibly consistent with your technique and sharpening either forwards or backwards will yield minimal differences in sharpness. just my 2 cents
Hell Yeah. Always a good day when OUTDOORS55 drops some content
From your magnified shots it looked to me that going backwards formed a more consistent and uniform burr.
I use both methods depending on the blade shape and my ability to remain consistent with my technique. So for example if it's easier for me to remain consistent, specifically with the sharpening angle, pushing away from me than I do that. So one side of the blade is done forward and the other backwards. I do this alot with tantos, longer blades and knives that have a portion of serrations I have to work around.
Basically I go whatever direction I can maintain my sharpening angle most consistently. Doesn't seem to be a wrong answer as long as your knife is sharp when your done.
Backwards surely looked better......my preference way too
YES! How can't people and he see that, especially on the last shot??
Glad to see you posting videos ! Been sharpening for over 40 years, mostly freehand. Still find things that cause me to modify my technique every so often. My conclusion; as long as you are consistent with the angle & light pressure, it doesn't matter how you do it. Remove metal till it's sharp and some people will say you're doing it wrong.
as long as your willing to learn different ways, be it old ways and new ways, you will always be sharp.
Knife sharpening done wrong, as is tradition.
Tone metal, coming to a knife near you!
if whatever different ways you are using still gets the knife sharp, then who's to say which way is the right way. if it gets the knife sharp to how you want it and need it to be then you are doing it on how its suppose to be done.........to get it sharp as fuck!
I sharpen both forwards, backwards and circular. I finish on strop backwards and/or steel forwards. I have stropped on leather, old aluminum rod dirty pieces of plastic, green compound loaded leather, anything that I thought would work. With the caveat that I can only achieve the same sharpness on a perfectly smooth or very close to perfectly smooth honing rod they all work. I can not get quite as sharp finishing on a honing steel with a lot of texture, ceramic rod or diamond impregnated honing rod. I like relatively simple knife steel like 14c28n, cruwear. Poor results trying to finish s90v on anything but a diamond loaded strop. As far as sharpening I have tryed water stones, 1x30 sander, wicked edge sharpener, my favorite is just freehand with 3x8 diamond plates holding the knife with1 hand andthe plate with the other kicked back in my garage chair. Bevels probably a little more convex, takes a little longer but more enjoyable and still whittles hair when finished.
So what you’re saying is… it doesn’t matter how you sharpen the knife as long as it gets sharp. Got it! And your videos are always a treat!
Thanks for the interesting video.
My father used a circular motion... and so do I sometimes. It worked for him and it seems good enough to me. If I'm using a really fine, hard stone in good condition I will generally apply my finishing strokes by pushing the edge forward as this has seemed to give me a shaving edge more often. If the stone is not flat... or if it is particularly coarse or if it has protruding grit.... I pull the edge backwards so that the imperfections are less likely to catch or damage the edge. If I am using abrasive paper for sharpening, I drag the edge backwards also.
Life was less stressful when I didn't think about perfect cutting edges and the theoretical best sharpening technique. I just grabbed my knife and went hunting. If the knife was blunt I'd maybe use a stone and then do a few licks down a sharpening steel. Over the last few years (the RUclips era) I've been disappointed when my super-sharp knives became blunt in a short time when field dressing game (particularly after cutting around the hocks). So one thing I often do now is to use a softer blade like might be used in a meat processing plant and I restore the edge as on a butcher's steel when it feels blunt. (I must state here that no matter what anybody says, at least some common sharpening steels DO remove metal from the edge. You can see the shavings and if you look at the edge of the newly sharpened blade through a magnifier you can see the cutting pattern).
More recently I've tried to set aside my fixation for "shaving sharp" and concentrate on "durable" .... sharpening to get an edge on a field dressing knife that will allow me to field dress for as long as possible without having to change knives or sharpen them. I'm currently going for a toothier edge made by a coarse diamond steel. It seems that some guys are having a good experience using serrated knives for field dressing, and while I have no wish to carry a serrated knife, I think most hunting knives have some degree of serration.... it is just a matter of selecting how much serration by selecting the most suitable grade of grit. Cutting happens when enough force is applied to a small area. A finely sharpened blade presents less area to the material being cut. A serrated blade may apply all the force to just one or a few serrations which really can make things tear apart.
Maybe I'm on the wrong track, but I will see how the next few hunts work out. My ancestors butchered game with bits of rock. I have steel.... I just have to decide on the best type of edge for what I do. Best wishes from New Zealand.
For toothy edges, I like 400 grit diamond and then a 3-5 micron strip. Seems to make the “teeth” sharp and remove burrs
Not beyond 600 is my favorite. Good luck mate
I always sharpen forwards as this is how I learned to do it 30 or more years ago. I also learned never to put too much pressure on the blade as this turns whatever burr might form. My distinct experience through the years though is that sharpening forwards is much more important when sharpening cheaper softer steels which are more prone to burr formation than good high quality steels.
Based on your comment and several others I think I'll try lightening up on my pressure. At least when I'm not removing a big nick or something. Also I hate blades with an inward curving belly shape, because they're a royal pain for me to sharpen. I once took a folder and reefed on it untill I flatend the curve completely.
17 years experience total, but only 2 or so since I actually learned how to sharpen-(I was a 12 year old with a hand file and most of my knives were train wrecks after I got done with them.)
@@scojo6377
For recurved blades (inward curving belly) I highly recommend using a round ceramic rod in a somewhat similar grit progression as the Lansky Turnbox ("medium grit" and "fine grit"). For doing a new bevel better use a diamond rod, this rods remove more material.
Or use a round dowel like a broomstick, wrapped in sandpaper.
This makes the sharpening of recurved blades a piece of cake.
For stropping I recommend a narrow strop (1" - 2") or stropping on the edge of your strop.
Some recommend sharpening recurved blades on the edge of the very same whetstone you use for straight blades. It is doable, but using rods or sandpaper on a dowel makes sharpening recurved blades a piece of cake.
So happy you’re back posting videos!! Would love to see more DIY on the house
Great. Sharpened backwards for years, probably because of watching you but will try forwards.
Good information mate.
Keep on keeping on.
From the UK
I didn't think you guys were allowed to have knives.
@@MAGAMAN screwdriver shiv
lol
@@MAGAMAN it's complicated. 2 inch blade is the legal carry length.
Flick knives, switchblades and assisted openers are not allowed. Locking blades are not allowed either. You can't open carry a sheath knife but if you are doing outdoors stuff then the police turn a blind eye. I do building work and don't use Stanley knives (box cutting knives) but use various knives of various lengths and, once again, the law looks the other way.
I brought a few knives and had them imported. A butterfly knife didn't make it and I knew I was in trouble. Sure enough after a few months the police knocked on my door and I had to go to the station, had my rights read, got a freebie lawyer and was questioned. Waited another few weeks and was told they were going to take no further action but I had to do a knife awareness course.
For a butterfly knife.
But if I'd found a retailer in the UK who sold butterfly knives I would not have had any trouble...not allowed to take it outside my property but could all it a part of a collection or some such shit.
As I say, complicated. Leatherman multitools are illegal carry because the blade locks. I said to the pi..policeman that the locking law is fucking bullshit because collapsing sharp blades are fucking lethal. He agreed. He didn't even want my stupid case because there is a lot more dangerous shit going on than a 50 something year old bloke who mistakenly imported an illegal weapon for his collection.
In my experience, the difference between the two is so little that I can't separate them consistently enough to determine if it is stroke direction or some other technical failure. If you have a consistent stroke, it won't matter which direction it unless circumstances, such as bevel grind type, demands a specific stroke.
Very small difference, but from the video the backwards looked better.
This video you have made is very useful since I'm sure many people like me wonder about that!
Thank you!!!
Agree. Backwards looks a lot cleaner and crisper, even the scratch pattern looks more uniform. Looks like the tiniest of burr remaining on the leading edge blade.
I think that is also the result of “pushing” steel away from the edge instead of into the edge, but either way they still sharpen, but backwards is my preferred way simply because it’s better looking and in my case, sharper too
@@riggsvsoliver You got a good point. For people who are not experts, pulling the blade is more likely to produce good results.
Agreed! Science of sharp blog reinforces our though
This is such a pleasantly scientific approach to knife sharpening. It’s so refreshing and enjoyable when I find channels like yours that take a proper scientific approach. Thank you so much for all the work you put into these videos and for addressing every question and concern the comment section has, no matter how dumb sometimes lol.
I've been sharpening my knives forever and I always learn a lot from your videos. Glad to see you creating and posting again! Thanks!!
I know I'm coming late to this, but come on man, nobody would hate you. We love you for this stuff.
9:58 im a newb. In the referenced shot it is said that there is no difference. But to me, they look significantly different. The top one definitely shows a ridge shadow along the top of the blade that is not on the bottom. It looks very much like the burr we saw in the previous shots.
I usually sharpen backwards and forwards for sake of efficiency. I'm sure it's not going to create the "perfect edge" but I can get it shaving sharp in a short period of time, which is all that I'm really after. A lot of people argue about the best way to sharpen things, but I think it's down to whatever feels comfortable to the individual and allows them to maintain a fairly consistent angle.
Plus back and forth its dead easy to hold angle. That's another benefit I find.
Very interesting! I honestly feel like burr removal is so important and very difficult to get the hang of compared to other sharpening steps.
I LOVE this creator..doesnt seem to me so far that he replies to many comments though...he is so smart!
I have also found that there is very little difference between edge leading and edge trailing, especially on whetstones. Now where does it make a difference, if you use a belt, edge trailing is great because, under the right lighting conditions, you can see the burr form. Seeing the burr form is very helpful when working with damaged knives, it lets you know when you have apexed the damaged areas. This is one of those myths in sharpening, along with "you must sharpen to at least 7k grit, or it just won't cut" or "my pull though sharpener does a great job". Thanks for the video!! all your videos are great!!!
Uh, you can't really lead with a belt, whether it's a strop or an electric belt.
You are the man! I must admit it that very few people could have tackled this question with any legitimacy, but you seem to confirm that sharpening direction, if it matters at all, is adequately handled by de-burring steps normally performed as a finishing step. Therefore, the direction really becomes a matter of preference for the person manually doing the motions. Good work!
The parallel photos at 10:05 show a difference on the very edge.
The forward sharpened one seems to have a small burr or a different shade along the edge, wide about 2 or 3 times the width between adjacent scratches.
The backwards sharpened blade shows absolutely no visible burr or shade on the very edge.
However I would agree it’s not significant for practical purposes.
I was always told to use back and forth movements with medium light pressure for sharpening (which ensures much better stability of the sharpening angle along the process) and only go backwards at the very end for a few light finishing strokes on the stone on each side for some burr removal. Then optionally, repeat the whole process on a higher grit stone.
Then hone it (obviously only backwards) on leather or a cardboard sheet with optionally a polishing compound for the final touch.
What about sharpening in both directions? Might the burr and sharpness be the same as in just one direction, but the sharpening takes less time because of the higher efficiency of the motion?
this
Yep. That’s exactly what I do. Have done it that way ever since I watched a few videos by people who make their living sharpening knives and they all said, “The question I get all the time is, what direction do I pull it across the stone?” Their answer? “Doesn’t matter.” They do it both ways because it’s twice as fast. Plenty of hobbyists who’ve figured this out as well. Go watch some of Michael Christy’s old videos. Insane attention to detail and encyclopedic knowledge of sharpening. Going to tell me he’s doing it wrong? How many people do you think use their guided sharpeners in only one direction? Or rewire their Worksharps to run the motor in the reverse direction?
For material removal, going both ways is fastest. Then just touch it up for the last few strokes going fwd only, to minimise the burr, before going to the strop to get rid of most of the last of it.
Great to see, that u r back! Greetings from Germany and keep up the good work, Alex.
10:08 there is a huge difference.
Forward apex has consistent bump on top. (Bump..? Or is just not clear cut)
Backwards apex is clearcut at the top.
The backwards asked should be sharper when you compare these 2 edges.
2:03 I appreciate the audio editing there, where you add the box falling to the alternate shot. Nice continuity
Your expression at 1:42 was perfection lol your sharpening videos I've learned a lot from. Cheers
Why do you have a zip tie on the blade hole of your knife? Is it just to make it easier to open?
It acts like an emerson wave, and opens the blade, when you take it out of your pocket a certain way.
@@_BLANK_BLANK thanks
@@wlemos np man.
From a minor standpoint forward looks a little better. Thanks so much for answering these seemingly small points with your in-depth research and photos. Cheers
Ten minutes ago I finished watching another of your videos and added a comment. I felt I couldnt leave this one without adding the same comment i.e. Thank you very much for your extremely informative videos !!
If I could heart this video instead of thumbs upping it I would. I've been toying with the idea of sharpening my pocket knife with stopping strokes using sandpaper followed by Bark River compound and I can't seem to get it as sharp as I can on my DMT guided diamond sharpener. Even though it's fully apexed but at least now I know it can be done with good results. Thankyou for this!
I thought backwards looked better on all accounts. However, the difference is likely so small it can't be measured. What I have learned is it is easier to maintain the angle of the bevel going backwards and sharpen more even. It also prevents a slip and slice when you are doing it quickly. Honestly, I don't think it really matters enough for it to matter. I will keep doing backwards as it works better for me. I used to always do forward and was able to get them kinda sharp. Now that I do backwards I get them scalpel sharp everytime and do not have the risk of slicing myself due to a slip.
That's what I thought. Backwards is more control and smoother. Blade wont dig in to the whetstone. And forwards pictures all looked like they had more burs so idk if he just mixed them up when talking
Thank you for your video. Being fairly new at sharpening, I realize that I still have a lot to learn. However, your video answered one big question: Am I doing it wrong? Forward, backward, both, or in a rotational direction, it seems to be what you are comfortable with. And the results you like. Thank you.
Even if I use my Lansky guided system, where I use to shatpen in both directions, I raise a burr.
Feels like the burr has nothing to do with the direction of the sharpening motion. The burr will rise on the oposite side of the apex, or, said in different terms, on the side that is looking away from the force that removes steel.
Sounds logical.
Nice video of yours. I was missing your work and appreciate it a lot. I have learned a lot about sharpening knives from your videos, even came into stropping - and started freehand benchstone sharpening.
I used the Lansky guided sharpening system and later the Turnbox, everything because I have seen your videos about this systems.
Now I use the Work Sharp "Benchstone" with two diamond plates in 320 and 600 grit and a ceramic plate with about 1000 - 1200 grit.
Started out with the angle guides, but after a short time I was able to use this benchstone free hand.
I want to thank you for starting my interest into learning something new, I really appreciate it.
Stay safe everybody, and stay blessed.
Greetings from Germany!
I appreciate educational aspect of your videos as well as entertainment value of them :) Great job! Many thanks and cheers from Poland!
In my first hand experiences ...,
Yes, the size of the bur makes a difference when it breaks off. Larger bur will leave a wider apex for additional refining.
In my experiences, ET (Edge Trailing) produces a bur more quickly and more easily than EL (Edge Leading). This may be positive or negative situ depending.
The size of the bur is directly relevant to abrasive grit size, the amount of pressure applied and how long you keep grinding (pushing material past the apex).
To attempt to say one method is right or wrong is misunderstanding the fact that the results are simply sometimes different and also dependant on the steel and geometry.
I typically use both EL and ET in a sharpening progression.
Good video showing key information; I spent some time working with a butcher; did most everything you covered while maintaining his knives, but the final step was to use the leather (or Fabric) strop to put a polished edge on the knife. It only takes a moment, but the results gave a far better cut,
The muscles in the arm have more precision control in the backstroke this is know in many crafting cutting tasks. More control leads to greater control of the precision burr…if you want it small that is easy if you want it big that is also easy… what do you want…it is up to you - I vote that more control - backstroke is the greater winner! Love your videos; I have learned a lot!
The angles of the microscopes shown at 00:40 are not the same. They're actually being misused to show a field longer than the width of the areas directly under the microscope. So there is a focused are that gets progressively out of focus two times in different directions. The edge shown with the "sharpen into the blade" method has a bur but it's quickly blurred out of focus.
Using your tools optimally and competently would likely persuade. Let me watch the video more to see if your case is made.
Interesting study/comparison. Thanks for testing that so thoroughly. Good stuff!
0:41 you can clearly see that the top edge of the blade is much rougher sharpening forward than backwards. For a knife to be sharp, you need good straight bevels at the right angles, but much more important for precision is that top edge to cleanly begin a cut. Thats why you hone a knife, not to sharpen, only to keep that bery top edge straight and clean.
Extremely well done, Sir. Very educational, interesting, and well worth following your channel. All the Best to You and Yours!
I agree with you. Keep up the good work. Don't let the haters get under your skin.
my teacher, who was by reckoning, an absolute master of the craft, reverse sharpened on stone, but toward himself on the steel, so technically forward. He did it because he could get his rhythm right. I still haven't reached his level, but the techniques he passed to me have allowed me to hone even the dullest knives into usefulness. Knowing I may one day pass this knowledge on is one of my few joys.
Already passing on some of his knowledge! Thanks.
Your sense of humor reminds me of my youngest brother. Even the way you word things.
This is nerdiness at its most beautiful - sincerely.
I think this is a great test. Thank you for sharing your work and findings!
1:50 you got me there xD The position and absence of reaction are perfect
I love the video but now I would love to see back and forward vs circular motions and both along Side the footage from today
If you ever watch professional japanese knife sharpeners that work in the markets that sell hand made high carbon knives they use a back and forth push pull on a stone. They do hundreds of knives a week and its for damn sure they get them shaving sharp. I think they use a combination bull and sharkskin strop as well for finishing them.
Some keep the knife longitudinally (by its handle) and go forward and backwards. So not perpendicular to the blade, but along it.
Didn't even read the title....saw it was an outdoors55 vid and clicked away. Always enjoy the content man.
Just found your channel. Been sharpening edge leading all my life. Tried edge following and I prefer it! Thanks for making these fantastic videos.😀
I have always wondered about this as I have seen different knife 'experts' do it different ways and wondered why and who was right. I use forward sharpening and it works well for me. Thanks for the vid.
Your close up shows what I felt. A weird round dullness when going backwards.
I really like your videos man. You put in lots of effort to make concise, entertaining videos that tackle the important questions. Keep up the great work.
The images of the both blades together after stropping at the 10:00 mark, appears to show a concave shadow just behind the forwards edge. This seems to indicate deformation along the edge (a burr) than has not been stropped out. One might assume the metal is weekend by plastic deformation.
For wood & metal working tool sharpening, I sharpen in the forward direction, probably as that is what I was taught. This is not knife sharpening though. Anyway, I would say that in over 50 years of sharpening hand tools, the metallurgy of blades differs. Some blades appear to produce very large burr indeed, while other are brittle and prone to grains chipping out. In tool sharpening, we tend to sharpen only one bevel side which is the side that is ground and predominantly worked on a stone. The other face is only lightly worked to remove burr. This tends to promote a large burr being formed. So we will occasionally remove this burr then work the bevel more and so on until we can raise a burr along the whole edge. I the tend to do a final burr removal and leave it at that, regarding stropping as a waste of time as the toll will soon need resharpening again anyway.
However knives are bevelled on both sides. If the blade is bent or badly worn or chipped, I will 1st straighten the blade, then re-establish the basic bevels with course paper stuck to thick flat glass, so that cutting edge is straight. Then begin sharpening alternate bevels using wet & dry paper over foam with reverse strokes. Repeating this until I have a sharp edge along the whole length, then going to a finer grade. This way, there is no substantial burr developed on one side, and those difficult grain dropouts tend to be eliminated. Presumably because the pressure is more spread across & along the sharpening surface. I don't know if you have come across this grain drop out issue, I have only one (filleting) knife that is impossible to sharpen on a hand stone for this reason. I have taken knives down to 1000+ grit & strop but for general practical bushcraft, fishing or kitchen use, that seem rather unnecessary. Maybe, 400 to 800 grit would be ample for most people, not everyone though I guess.
The edges were the same. Its just a lighting artifact as well as two slightly different angles. A macro lens like this has a focus plane less than a human hair so aligning everything up exactly the same is almost impossible.
Good experimentt. There's some random variables there, could address with a split sample test on two sets of randomly selected knives. Then apply fixed changes to efforts of burr production and removal. There are some interesting sharpening tools that can be used to produce consistent angle etc.
Thank you for sharing your wisdom and experience with us.
I'm still trying to learn myself, but I think I noticed something in some of the microscopic photographs. I'm not sure if it matters at all, but I think I saw a secondary burr at the bottom of the apex away from the tip when sharpening tip first.
I more often push than pull, but have not paid much attention to the difference. Just how I have learned and done it over the years I guess. I also use circular moves which I find easier with smaller hand held stones when outdoors to get the edge back after some use. When using sharpening device such as the KME I sometimes also do back and forth.
1:55 OH MY THAT HURT but I did that to my work sharp because I forgot I have to be careful with that LOL
thankfully it was minor scratches and it's fine. I might try sanding it down a bit to create a new surface!
I tired this out some time ago on a knife i made and quenched but didn't temper it. Always had a burr on it that i couldn't remove even by cutting across wood and other materials. I had to order a very fine stone and i noticed with sharpening backward the knives always cut a bit rough and the burr was a bit more catchable with fingernails. Going forwards left a little bit smaller burr. Stone grit and steel hardness also matter tho. On the super fine stone i can't get rid of the burr sharpening backwards, i just have to do it froward and go from hard pressure to very very light.
I am very OCD about keeping my knives insanely sharp. Sharpening is therapeutic to me so I enjoy it. I have gotten similar results going forwards or backwards. I do prefer to sharpen backwards and I often will use different strops with various grit compounds to hone so I kinda just get used to going backwards.
If you strop the edge it shouldn't matter, right?
I'm confused. At 9:34, it sure looks to me like the 2 blades don't have the same sharpness. ?? Yet you say the one sharpened forwards has the burr removed. ?? Looks like a roll-over to me. ???
I am watching several of your videos. Trying to learn how to use my sharpening stone. THANKS for the training!
I think I see a difference
with the burr made in the forward direction, the edge is provided with very fine notches!
with the burr made in the backward direction, the cut is much cleaner!
I also find that the burr curls nicer and more evenly over the entire length!
All knives are magnetized until you demagnetize them. Some of your burrs are "klingons" made worse by residual magnetism. In my profession as a metalworker, we have to demagnetize everything we make out of steel. I bought a demagnetizer for home use years ago from Harbor Freight, and I demag all my knives before sharpening. Magnetic shavings get in the way of sharpening.
I sharpen on a horizontal belt, relatively slow speed, it running away from me. Used like this I can actually see the burr forming on various parts of the blade as I sharpening so I can tell if it's even without having to stop and touch it. I use a leather belt on the same machine to strop so burr removal is quick and easy.
my comment will be towards the end of the video. i think your finished with both knives, you say it doesnt look like there is much of a difference. i havent read any of the other comments thats only because i have absolutely no interest in what haters think or have to say. that being said, if there arent haters talking shit, wonderful... my friend, to me and what im seeing, there is definitely a difference. it looks like the edge of the forward sharpened knife has an ever so slight burr coming off the edge where the backwards edge looks friggin better than factory. i just barely started watching your channel and as a knife enthusiast this channel is of the top 3 that i enjoy very much. for the sake of sounding like i know you or that ive been watching your channel for years, i just wanna say that i hope to see you creating informative videos with a touch of some funny ass shit for a long time to come. take good care of yourself....
Love your channel!! FYI, I got ZERO notification when you put this video up. YT may be playing games with your channel.
Thank you for doing the work and documenting the results.
As a novice I found more success sharpening backwards from personal experience, I think it's more newbie friendly?
Also tips for tips? I've been depending on luck when sharpening the tip, there's always seem to be a small part that's not quite as sharp as the rest...
Hey Alex. The scratch patterns are different on both and also (and I might be wrong) but the sharpened backwards looks crispier, while I can still see burr on the other one. Great video as always 😁👌
The scratch patterns are not important as both knives were only sharpened on one side. Only looking at the apex🙂
I join - You're right.
A bit of salt here. If you look at the picture of two sharpened sides, for example at 4:45, you will see that you maintained the angle sharpening in the forward direction much better, and in the backboard direction you have a bow in your edge. If you look at the picture in the forward direction it is nice and in focus completely. But the picture of the backboard sharpening is not in focus completely, yet the part of the edge closer to the burr is in focus. Am I correct?
Thank you for making a meaningful video! You did a basic experiment and showed us that the results are comparable. I hope this settles the "debate"!
When I first got into sharpening, I was searching the internet for all of the best ways to get a knife razor sharp and found so many different "best practices" and "correct" ways of doing it. Which grit do you start with, how long until you move onto the next grit, how many grits along the way you need, the best angle, the direction(s), should you strop, should you use compound on the strop, etc. After years of trying different things and seeing all of the "experts" spout off their secret knowledge, I've found that there are a few key steps to sharpening a blade and it isn't complicated. I use about 2-4 different grits, sometimes I sharpen in both directions, sometimes I strop, every time I get a very sharp knife.
I been sharpening knives, axes, chisels etc.. since i was around 15?(36 now)
I go forwards some times backwards.
Some times i do both..
As long as it gets sharp enough for your needs, it does not mater...
But as a beginner i would suggest going backwards only to learn the techniques... (only reason being that you save on straps...)
I use a KME system, and use a scrubbing motion, which seems to work well with any type of stone, but of course trailing strokes with films and leather strops.
I've been watching this channel for a little while now, and ended up subbing. Since this vid I'm pretty sure I've seen you do both on occasion. I really don't hink it makes a difference, especially considering you are so thorough with the process (including stropping).
I have worked in a lapidary, sizing and conditioning a variety of materials using abrasives. I found that there is an inherent plasticity to many materials including steels. In order to demonstrate this, try to sharpen an piece of plastic...(try uhmwpe). Good information!
I love how the video is about how it doesn't matter and the comments are full of opinions on what works best
Its a debate that will apparently live on forever..
If you’re having trouble feeling for the burr, one tip I use that I don’t hear mentioned much is to use a flashlight. If there’s a burr the light will barely reflect back at you
Man I’m glad you’re making videos again. I missed watching
Thanks for sharing this. Also glad to see you putting out more content.
Wonderful information! I always wondere, but go back and forth anyways not believing there is any difference. You took the time to confirm it for us. We are in debted.
1st You are back! 👏
2nd You killed me with h8ters bit
3rd Great video
When I was first taught to sharpen, I was shown a circular motion, and we never stropped. My dad, who taught me, had learned from his dad, who, among other pursuits, made cabinetry. Not infrequently, wood workers used to sharpen wide, straight edges (plane irons, chisels, etc.) using a rotary motion while maintaining the angle. I don't sharpen that way any more. I have always removed the burr pulling "backwards." If the burr wouldn't go away, I have concluded the blade steel was too soft and ductile. I do think there is a little remaining on the "forward" direction blade. But, the blade sizes may be part of what is happening.
This is so cool that you did this! I love these types of videos. Dang man, I'm so glad you're back!
Thanks appreciate it👍👊
I'm trying it the other way now.....just for fun. I sharpen forward usually. I like your comments in one of your other videos about this. So cheers 🍻 to trying something new. Thank-you keep up the good work can't wait to see more!
At 10:13 I could see the difference in the grain of the metal. They're like two different katanas
On most any kind of powered wheel, belt or disk its wise to go edge trailing. And I like the motion to be 90 degrees to the edge for best bite when cutting. On a strop you have to go edge trailing. So I just got used to edge trailing on everything, including the kitchen knife honing steel. That is definitely safest!
Assuming the knife steel has some ductility characteristics, my assumption is that pushing the edge into the stone would compress the ductile material, bunching the carbon crystals at the edge; while pulling the edge across the stone would elongate the ductile material, increasing the distance between the carbon crystals, therefore having a detrimental effect on edge retention and sharpness longevity. Or am I over analyzing it?
I agree no difference worth worrying about. Personally I prefer away from edge or what you refer to as backwards.
Looks more consistent and more even on the going backwards to me