timbo slice I said the same, but after they anounced that Quake Champions will be PC only i have at least minimum Hopes. The biggest Question is, can ID step up and reach the old Quality or killed Bethesda everything.
Quake champions was my first quake and I love it so much. Love spending 3 hours to get one bridge to rail strafe jump. My friends on steam all quit within an hour
The netcode comparison isn't really fair because HL and Quake have very different style of hitboxes. Quake uses basically 2 squares to create their hitbox which makes "regging" shots alot easier because there is less information that needs to be relayed to make the calculations. HL has always used a more precise hitbox setup where it is possible to miss through legs and just the overall structure is more complicated to relay that information.
The gist is: id Software games are like arsty music and LoL-like games are like "commodity music".Great analogy, compelling arguments, fam. Subscribed.
TAKE A LOOK AT QWC THORIN the playoffs have been fucking INSANE !!!!!!! grand final tonight then maybe a great new WHO IS video - VOO ! Fuck its insane how people don't even look how good QC is to watch and the level of skill. At least watch some games from this weekend it sbeen so hype. People suck at games if they dont appreciate this game
"qauke wasn't even designed as a multiplayer game" You need to get a clue Thorin buddy. So where did maps like dm4, dm5, etc, included in the game, came from? Hint: "dm" stands for "deathmatch". "Rage through 32 single player levels and 6 deathmatch levels of sheer terror..." - original id software marketing. They also ran Quake ads like "kill your friends"... They also released a client "quakeworld" the same year, which was a 100% deathmatch client. It even had somewhat different physics, that's what we nowadays mean when we say quake engine. next time, do a fact check plz, this is almost completely clueless bullshit.
I'll tell you a story. I'm 21 years old now and I started playing quake abut 2 years ago. My brother had recently picked it up and I thought 'hey I may as well'. I remembered playing a bit of quake 3 a while ago when I got my first pc and even then before that when my older brothers were introduced to it by a friend at a land party. It was the first First Person shooter game I had really ever played. I by the very definition got rekt by them when I was trying it out. They were quite shit as well but I was about 10 at the time so it's fine for that to happen. All the bright colours from all these amazing weapons. Gothic themes and fast paces fluid movement. I enjoyed it so much. I couldn't really think for myself or have much in the way of understanding how good of a game it actually was, I just knew I liked it, everything it had to offer. I didn't know how to strafe jump but I saw other people jumping around so whatever. I hijacked anyone's pc to play because I needed to play as much as possible. Eventually everyone got bored of quake and started playing diablo 2, and I didn't see quake again. After that lan and a few years later when I got my own pc one of the first games I installed was quake 3 arenas. We didn't have internet, so I couldn't play online. I didn't even know that's what it was meant for. I fired it up with bots and started working my way through the levels. I can win, bring it on, hurt me plenty, hardcore and nightmare... Wow, Xaero was hard... I can tell you now I never managed to beat him. I had consumed quake to the extent that it allowed me and I got bored. With no one else to play with and completely ignorant to the online gaming community and e-sports itself. I knew who fatality was, though. My brother had one of his motherboards, though I didn't even know he played quake. Anyways that brings me to when I finally found out about quake live. I thought 'hey quake online, lets try it out'. Its a small community where I live and people mostly played clan arena so I joined it. wow... I can't tell you how long I spent looking at other people play while I waited for the round to end and for me to finally get back in there. I was infuriated at how these people were so good. If one of them pulled out the lightning gun in a open space I needed to back off else I'd die. I just couldn't compete with their aim. The constant rails from these pros, all I could do is bring out the nade launcher and hold a front for me team while we tried to win. I saw someone make the bridge to rail circle jump on Campgrounds and I thought... 'interesting glitch'. Then I saw everyone else do the same damn thing. I fired up a local game and I spent hours practicing that jump. I just couldn't do it. I watched videos and tried again. during loading times for the round to begin I'd try the jump then hide away somewhere. After a few weeks I finally started to get it. The next step was making sure I could get it 100% of the time. Then someone told me I wasn't strafe jumping right. That I should practice the strafe jumping map. I honestly didn't think strafe jumping could be harder than that circle jump. But because of the deeper understanding of the games mechanics from practicing the circle jump it was a bit easier, but no less painful to get down. I kept at it. playing. eventually getting a proper mouse with a 'perfect sensor' and good mouse pad. I started to experiment with my cfg. I found out most pros used acceleration so I started tweaking it. disabled damage numbers for my lg. found a good crosshair for it. Then I saw someone get the bridge to rail backward... I honestly didn't know that was even possible. It makes sense now, knowing quakes full range of motion. I started to get good in clan arena. I could out do people with the lg, sometimes my score would be around the top. I think once it was even at the top. Then someone told me about dueling and how that's where the actually competitive scene is. I started a duel vs this guy I destroyed in clan arena, and guess what happened. He destroyed me. I then dueled an equal in clan arena and he annihilated me 20 to -2. I thought I was reaching the top of the skill ceiling in quake but the honest truth is I hadn't even come close. The next day I tried to duel someone who was actually good. He's one of those guys that could go pro if he played more and didn't already have a life. People say that but in this case its true. I honest to god pro. The kind of guy who needs to duel the best of the best to have an even match. That first duel on ztn(bloodrun) ended with a score of 62 to -2. he killed me on average of once every 10 seconds. His constant rails. this overwhelming feeling of helplessness far worse than the first clan arena match I had more than a year ago. He didn't let me do anything. I'd get a weapon then die. It was one of the worst feelings I've had. since then I've dueled him well over 100 times and many more pros just as good as him many more times. I've climbed a short ladder leading nowhere and haven't managed to beat one of them. but I'll tell you this. that first guy that I dueled that raped me but I dominated him in ca normally. Well I'll win every game vs him without dying. Its not bragging its just that he's too easy to read. He doesn't try to prevent me from taking control of the map. He doesn't punish me where he should and as a result I there isn't anything he can do. vs the pros I now end up with a score of about a 2 to 1 ratio. I've even had the lead every now and then. It's much better than the original 60 to -2. I'm starting to understand that quakes skill level isn't in landing shots. It's predicting and outsmarting your opponent. The shots is a requirement, the perfect movement is required, the circle jumps is something that must just happen every time or else you'll lose, if you don't have perfect timing of mega you'll lose, if you can't see that you must actually leave red alone and run to mega to contest it or else your opponent will get it for free then work your way back to red achieving two things. One disrupting his timing of the item, and two actually preventing him from getting any stack making him a threat on the map you'll lose.
Veteran Quake Player here (not very good though xD) About 14:09, in order to make high skill ceiling videogames viable for the average gamer, you only need a good matchmaking system that won't match up those players with people that are obviously better. Is that simple. DOTA 2 and LoL have also very steep learning curves and are hard to master and still have plenty of low skilled players having fun with them. I don't know if a new Quake game might become popular or not but I know for a fact that if the skill ceiling is very high (as high as other Quake Games), it would not be a detrimental factor on it's popularity as long as the matchmaking system is decent. There are other factors that need to be tanken care off, like the expectator experience on fast paced team based fps games (which is literally SHIT in all games I've seen, like Quake TDM, Wolfenstein, Overwatch, etc). Following a fast paced/team based fps game is a nightmare for the average expectator. It is just not an enjoyable experience. On the contrary, focusing on one pro player is easy to follow but does not make any sense on team based games, obviously. That's why Quake duels where so popular back in the days and even non Quake players could enjoy it.
I think your matchmaking thing is the big problem. Addressing his sports example, your not playing against pro tennis players at all times. Or at all really. You generally play against people around your skill level. If your new you play against new players. It's like that for many popular games as well. I don't play CS against Olofmeister, I play against other bad players :D If a few new players got together and played Quake (as someone who's watched some but never played it) it seems like it would be fun for them to play against each other. But you also need a decent sized playerbase for matchmaking to work as intended. I assume the amount of people playing Quake is fairly small compared to other games, and/or it isn't drawing in new players. If this is true, this also helps cause what he was talking about, where the new player is stomped into the ground during their first few matches. If a playerbase is small, it is (or at least seem to be) likely that the average player is much better at the game than the avg. player of a more popular game. They've been playing for longer and been more devoted to the game. Those people are much more passionate about Quake as a game than random kids playing CoD (for example). They have stuck with it for long enough to get good. If there aren't enough low skill/new players to match the new player against they will be forced to play against people who are much better than they are, or not get into a game at all. New players are thrown into the deep end, and this generally isn't good for player retention.
No Aim No Gain Exacly that is what I have been saying. The MOBA genre is hardcore as fuck for new players, and yet LoL is the most popular game on the planet. To say that Quake can't be popular because it has a high skill ceiling is ridiculous. Also, Quake has one big advantage over other games, it is easy to just pick up and play. The average FFA match lasts what? 4-5 minutes the most? That is a FAR CRY from the 40 minutes or so that LOL matches last. Also FFA has the advantage of not putting any burden of responsibility on the player, he/she is up for himself, and doesn't need to worry about his team mates yelling at him when they lose. And lastly, Quake is very easy to learn. It is an incredibly easy game for a newbie to understand and is a very fun game to play casually. The ONLY issue I see is the whole "new players will get crushed by veterans" thing which can be easily solved by the matchmaking system you brought up and that exists on every fucking game nowadays. C'mon ID, it's not that hard
I´ve been a Quake admirer for years, followed the birth and eventual death of arena type e-sports shooters. I knew how hard the game was, so I never got into it, but it was great as visual spectacles go. Then QL came out. I made an account. Set up the keys. Went in and did the obligatory vs AI matchup, which was supposed to tell you your rank for better matchmaking. After that, jumped into the server. First game, FFA, 1 kill.... 50 deaths. Mind you, I had about 3000+h FPS experience by then, in slower games, sure. I gave QL a few more tries, eventually got to 0:3 KDR in a round, but I dropped. The game just felt like work. It was hard, exhausting, harsh and unrewarding environment, dominated by the veterans of the scene. That being said, I would never want QL to be anything different. That also means Quake will never be fun for casual chaps who dont spend 50h a week in a videogame. Which is depressing, because Quake represents something very special. I guess very reliable matchmaking could turn it around, but Quake Live proved that whatever matchmaking system should be used, it should be developed at some fucking brain trust, funded by Darpa and done by captured and enslaved talent from the lead AI developers in the world...
Word, 9 overtimes one just one map. And for the video, Thorin's speaking the truth. But Quake could bring in "casuals" without seeping out the essence of Quake. I just want a DM game with a player base large enough to not have to search for pickups on iirc/discord to get a decent match.
I can say it definitely doesn't take that long. While Quake 3 was first fps game i ever played, i never played it much, and later i started playing quake live and got straight into tier 3 in ffa. I don't know how much it matters but i was playing on crt at 85hz(later 120hz) and that was before high hz lcd screens became popular.
Very old comment to reply to, but Capture The Flag with a group of friends is soooooo good! That's mainly how I have played arena shooters. Back then it was easy to get 10+ people to connect via LAN and hang out for a weekend, so perhaps that's not as easy to get going these days.
I guess he isn't, or he would create content for it. Overwatch is created from the ground up to be a casual, fun experience, not hardcore competition. Much like other Blizzard games like Hearthstone (!) and Heroes of the Storm it has a competitive scene. Overwatch scales very good with skill and can create intense matches, but it is just not comparable to a game made on a competitive basis.
It's just a little too new to have analysis for it, he can't really be a historian and say: 2 weeks ago this team was dominant and was carried by this guy. Plus patches come so rapidly almost every week and major ones every 3 months. So you should definitely wait for a meta to settle down and get some history behind these teams to do proper analysis.
" Overwatch is created from the ground up to be a casual, fun experience, not hardcore competition" You could replace Overwatch with LoL and it would still hold true so what now ?
Old school shooters are better, I do have bias cause I'm older but if I ignore that the faster paced game is generally better from a spectator sport. It's just more exciting. I would adore a change to older FPS standards, the most fun I've had in years in traditional DM, TDM was on Tribes/Tribes Ascend. Again there is bias to my opinion that can't be denied.
I'm not really older and I agree with you. Old games are better and I have no "nostalgia" or "bias" because I played newer and older games at the same time.
Not to mention 1v1 is inherently more interesting to watch because you never miss anything. There's no chance of spectating the larger group of players only to have the lurker on the other side of the map end up getting a 3k for example. In cs it's not that big of a deal because of the game's pacing but part of the problem with games like OW is that it can be really difficult to capture all the action in a way that's interesting for the spectators.
Well it might never have been the number 1 *in player count* for obvious reasons. However, quake players are known to be like the tier-0 of FPS gaming; *put even Quake non-pros in any easier game such as CS and they will be miles ahead of the other players.* It is amusing to watch "quake pros", or "Team Fortress Classic players", or "older game veterans" simply jump into a new game and automatically compete with the pros there or completely destroy their opponents within minutes of adjustment because their base skill and knowledge is just that high. Quake has not added any accessibility and maintained the fact that pro players used to be around 2x better rather than only around 0.5x better than the vast majority of players. This means the vast majority will have the experience where even if they try their best they won't be able to kill a better player unless they have about a 1-5% stroke of luck. Unfortunately many RTS with actual balance are seeing the results of this: Dawn of War 3, any new and balanced RTS, will see literally a 1% of players who are way better at the top, and target that upper 5-10%, and people still don't like that "level of complexity" even though it has been dumbed down for them. They want to be able to compete at an easier game. In CS, this is probably somewhere around 40% chance in terms of a bad player killing a better player; they took out so many aspects to make it more accessible. Random accuracy (shots that can just 'hit' with no reason at all,*"gambling/instant gratification"), no movement allowed (basically just a stand still simulator), counter-strats /weapons gone, the reflex and shot is basically just CS and everyone can "point-and-click". With raw old-school mechanics and little to no focus on accessibility for "the other 90%" who are not at the top of the curve, it never overtook in community numbers as the 'casuals' in Quake are typically 'top tier' in any self-proclaimed e-sports title. Even older games with actual healthpoints where it's impossible to kill in one shot without a combo of attacks were never as popular as a dumbed down game that anyone can play. In comparison with Valve games, or self-proclaimed so called esports games, they are overly simplified and use esport scenes as a fake market for hype and attracting children.
This generation can't enjoy something like quake because they are used to short term, easy gained gratification. Most of us don't care about long term improvement, sadly. On top of that, people can't take loses, and have little dedication, which is needed to get better at a deep game. About a year ago I got into fighting games myself, I got my ass kicked for about a month, but now I love it and keep getting better. There is also the social aspect. Team games combine social team play together with easier gameplay, and so it is clear what games will be more popular. It's sad this is the way it is, but on the bright side, there will always be a highly dedicated player base in most difficult game genres. That is especially true in fighting games. A smaller player base also means less kids. I tried playing league a few times, and every time, chats were full of retards spamming "report report". I much rather play with a smaller player base that has no salty kids. So that is fine by me.
yeahhhh duuude all these dumb kids cant even pay attention and stuff maaaaan. Back in my day we didnt have all these short attention span call of battlefields and what not
I'm different from my current generation. I'm about to turn 15 and I love arena shooters even if I suck. I'd rather get destroyed in a match of Quake and learn than never play Quake.
The thing is, and what I realize is going to be the downfall/death on arrival of Quake Champions, is the fact that no one my age plays Quake. I'm fifteen, and kids my age really just don't know what Quake is. They had played Doom and knew what it was, so when Doom 4 came out it was successful to my age group. Not because it was an arena shooter, but because it was familiar. Kids my age haven't even heard of Quake, so it's going to launch without any of my generation to play it and try to get good. Even if they had heard of it, you're right, the competitive aspect down to the lowest levels of Quake can never truly be enjoyed by a casual player. Quake Champions is going to launch and the way they're marketing it, plus the issues I just talked about, are going to kill it faster than it can recover.
_sick 0 1 year later, Quake Champions gameplay has improved immensely and on Steamcharts QC looks to have about 1000 ish concurrent players per day. That's dismal compared to Overwatch and CS GO, but not dismal enough to say it's dead yet. I don't think something as extreme as what you're suggesting will come to pass, but your points are all valid. We'll just have to wait and see how Bethesda and id software can promote their new esport once it officially releases.
I really feel for quake and other hardcore games. Id love to get more into a game such as quake but i know its gonna be lonely, noone of my friends has it in them to actually sit down and get slaughtered for hours against better players. Like even now when i play cs:go with my friends, we just fuck around really and shoot stuff. We dont actively try to improve at the game. Its fun and all but sometimes abit unsatisfying.
TF2 might be more popular as a casual game but it really has a high skill ceiling compared to games like Overwatch. I also think TF2 is the only popular game that has the most resemblance to Quake (TF was born as a mod for Quake after all, and its classes were based around the Quake weapons) I remember someone once saying that OW's skill ceiling is as high as a house, TF2's skill ceiling is as high as a cathedral, and Quake is a skyscrapper.
I just get frustrated when i play cs:go, i just hate it when weapons don't hit where i aim, while in quake its not so annoying when im doing bad. I rather spend hours practicing strafejumps than how different weapons recoil. I never understood why tf gets compared to quake, its far from it.
Agree to 100% Skill level to high. I play 99% duel. Im bad at it. Max Elo was 1450. But: Its pure Its fast as hell Its tactics Its reading other minds And if i lose to a 2000 elo guy, im more fascinated with what kind of ease he crushed me, instead of being scared. I mean in which game you can compete with players which are at the top. You cannot play agains NBA players, but in QL you sometimes can. And its funny :D
Speaking of Overwatch, it's ridiculous how easy it is to beat pros there. The outcome of a match is so random that I've beaten many of the top players in Solo Queue (while they were playing with their teammates). It's the complete opposite of Quake where you can't accomplish anything as a newbie.
I agree, screw RNG games. I have put over 5k hours into CS:GO and the RNG and horrible netcode/hitboxes ruins it. "RNG in a skill based game" is a meme for a reason in that game. Can I add you on Steam bro?
that's my biggest concern. Quake is such a skilled game. As far as pure technical skill is concerned it's probably the most demanding shooter in that department. I could imagine being a csgo pro but being a quake pro seems impossible :D. The moves those guys pulled off.
Both Overwatch and Quake are great games and require skill for each. I understand that the best pro players in Quake have probably the best aim in the world up there with the best CS and UT players. But OW players team play needs to be amazing and aim and ult management and to be diverse etc xx
You need some skill for anything if you make it into a compo, even a pie-eating contest. But most games after quake are based around series of noobifications compared to quake. Never was that more true than with overwatch. These comparative noobifications can be easily recited, factually, case-by-case.
This video is spot on. I think ID should embrace quake's legacy and cultivate an allure around the game as a purist FPS for the most competitive players while promoting duel mode as a spectator esport. I love playing CSGO but I find it's not very engaging to watch a 5v5 match when the "camera" can only show one of the ten player's perspectives at any given time. Duel mode in quake however is some of the most engaging gamplay to watch in esports IMO. I think most esport games are like golf - it's enjoyable to the people who play, but it not that engaging for most people to watch on TV. Quake has the potential to be like UFC - very engaging to watch despite that fact that most people who do don't practice MMA. Quake arguably is the only true spectator esport and ID should really exploit this aspect of the game.
I agree that without mainstream interest, Quake 1/2/3 can't be on top again. However, I think that the gameplay itself could be relevant again if it were in a mainstream vehicle (I don't want to get my hopes up for Quake Champions, but that's the obvious example). Being popular/mainstream provides the necessary playerbase that answers a lot of the issues you're raising. That's what was wrong (or right?) with Quake Live, where it was populated almost exclusively by Quake 3 players who are very good at the game and it was very hard for new players to get into. I feel strongly that Quake 3's gameplay is still extremely solid and isn't duplicated by other high skill ceiling games (FPS movement/accuracy/map control). I think it deserves to find a space in esports, if said vehicle ever materializes. Won't hold my breath for it, of course.
well im not looking it at a comp seen but there are esports of it even though it esports seen isn't big but what they do is just do what cod does change the rules alot to make it like a esport
The fast arena style shooters like Q3 and more specifically CPM wont be number 1 again because they are simply too fast to follow for the average viewer. Watch something like the Bulgarian Odyssey and tell me the average viewer is going to watch more than 5mins of that lol. They wouldnt know what the fuck was going on, where as something like CS is very easy for the average person to follow, not necessarily understand all the finer details, but to follow casually.
The single-player of Quake was actually way better than you give credit for but agreed, Quake is basically the grand-father of all serious online multiplayer gaming. The mods were what really made Quake the game it was though - you could play Team Fortress or a ridiculous amount of other mods for Quake and have endless fun on public servers or get right into some serious competitive death-match / CTF / Team Fortress etc in your clan (QWTF is still the original and *BEST* team-fortress experience out there, coming from someone who has literally played every iteration of the "Team Fortress" mods for Quake's many versions and the Half-Life mods and full-blown stand-alone Team Fortress). People forget too that it was actually Quake's Team Fortress scene which really got behind CS in the early betas and made it incredibly popular with everyone playing online games. A die-hard group still played both but most of us realised that the original Wireplay Team-Fortress leagues we were playing in would probably never get big enough coverage and if pro-gaming was going to become a realistic possibility it would be from another game. Then when CS beta 4 came along a whole host of clans from QWTF started playing CS. Clans in the early UK scene like [SG] (Spice Girls), [EQ], FWD, [sas], [UKLA], [TA], [13] etc and the European clans like EYEballers and countless other European Counter-Strike clans were all comprised of oldskool QWTF players which instantly established a pretty competitive scene focused on aim and high-skill gameplay (and bunnyhopping, because CS used the same air-movement system Quake employed and we all found out you could bunnyhop VERY early on in the game's life) which made everything snow-ball from there. That is the reason CSGO even has a scene in the first place, rather than VALVe's involvement after they bought the rights from Cliffe and Goose. Without Quake's online mods we most likely wouldn't have competitive first-person shooters as an "esport" to this day though. Personally I really hope Quake Champions is a success - and from what I've played so far of it, it's already proving to be pretty popular with the old Quakers from back in the day. If the guys can establish a good competitive scene like we had back in the days of QWTF, Quake 3 Arena, CPMA pro-mode etc then the sky is the limit for this kind of esport in my eyes. Quake is a dueling game mainly and some of the duels I've seen so far in the Quake Champions tournament qualifiers for Quakecon have been nothing short of epic. I think depending how much support iD and Bethesda give the game will make or break the competitive scene - if they do it right then Quake Champions can easily rival and surpass a LOT of esports out there and establish itself as the number one competitive 1 vs 1 first-person shooter / dueling esport. Edit: I think the mod you were struggling to remember was actually called "Navy Seals" or "Seal Team" - I played it a bit but the following for it was practically dead compared to the amount of people just playing Quakeworld Team Fortress or straight death-match / TDM / CTF.
"Mobas can never overtake Starcraft" "CS:GO is a terrible game and will never be as big as 1.6." "SC2 is THE esport, people saying it's dying are exaggerating." "Hearthstone will never have a competitive scene." It just needs enough players. The game itself doesn't really matter, CS:GO, League and Hearthstone are shit for competitive but they all have huge scenes. People just need to want to play it, and therefore want to watch it.
Whats your point? Yes Hearthstone has players competing each other. What does that mean though when its a ultra casual card game with huge RNG swings. In the music world, a shit artist like Justin Bieber gets hugely popular compared to elite artist with years and years of refinement and sophistication such as a jazz quartet. There are casual shits destroying culture in all areas of life
don't you feel that mentioning a game like Halo near Quake is pretty silly? OOh we had greek classical theatre, but after that got done we had a guy clicking spoons together in the village, totally keeping the culture alive
Regardless of your opinions of games involved MLG was a pretty big component of eSports and had a lot of impact. Early non-Korean SC2 was basically the MLG circuit with the occasional IEM, there were some iconic moments from that era.
MLG actually popularized modern esports in the western world. I play a lot of UT/CS but I admit that halo/CoD really brought that mainstream scene for FPS games. Also, playing controller vs keyboard/mouse are different disciplines. I guarantee a PC player with no controller experience would get fucked by good players on the console(same the other way around).
To be honest, when talking about the first online fps games, I have always thought that Starsiege: Tribes was the best suited for actual competetive gameplay. I remember back in the day when my old friends played in one of the best European Tribes clans, those matches were intensive as shit. Skiing to the enemy base In Raindance, killing yourself and dropping the flag mid-air to a teammate while the enemy was hunting the flag carrier. Good times.
Duel is not unattractive to "casual" Quake players because of supposed increased skill requirement. I don't even think it is the case that duel is somehow more skill demanding. That's what a lot of people like to think because that's the main competitive mode, but it did not become the main competitive mode due to its skill requirements. It became the main competitive mode for logistical reasons. Skill requirement is not why duel is unattractive to "casual" Quake players. It is unattractive because it changes the nature of the game. I've been playing Q3 (and QL) sporadically since it first came out. I love the game, it offers something that no other game does. I have almost always played FFA. I don't care much for duel. For me, Quake is an extremely fast paced, intense skill focused non-stop combat action massacre. Duel is not that. Item control is the most important facet of Quake dueling, and defensive play style is much more at place there. Just look at top QL players. Between great aim and great defense, great defense consistently wins. Btw, I've watched some Quake Champions gameplay on YT, and I really like what they've done with the game. The time limit is now 5 min (I remember when 10 min in Q3/QL was considered very short) and there's only 3 lives, so the matches are much faster, more dynamic and combat focused. Also, the addition of the champions with different stats and abilities shifted focus from item control to combat quite noticeably. It happens much more often in QC that a player would try to get frags before getting stacked. I think Quake Champions may have a great future and has actually a potential to resurrect competitive Quake in a big way. It may become DOTA to Overwatch'es LoL.
Thorin, Thanks also for doing this. It's great for some Nostalga... Dwango... holy shit I haven't heard that in years... I used to play on the CompuServ Doom 2 Ladder... I was 7 years old... I remember SpaceManSpiff and Dicky were the two guys that I could not beat. Man... the OLD days... wow
Good old Days with Clanarena, CPL, ESWC, WCG and LANs, LANs, LANs. I trained and played for fun on LANs with a Friend who played in Ocrana, PoD, dr ect. it was so much Fun to play Q3A on a high LEvel until Diablo 2 stole my Time and i could never catch up again because Quake 3 was evolving so fast. Thorin brought back some good Memories, but at the same Time it is realy sad to see how unpopular Arena Shooters are. But what he said makes sense, the Casual Player from today is different from what we were back in the Days where we where running around in Quake 3 and never used the Jump Button or when who aimed with the Rocketlauncher on the Enemys Head insted of lower Parts. We were Casuals in the Beginning but willing to invest Time and Blood into our beloved Games. Greetings from Germany and Quake for Live!
Let's hope the new quake will be similar enough to q3 / qw / quake live so we can destroy all the OW 12yearolds, who think bunnyhopping is jumping in one place making binded emote-sqeals.
So to sum up in a few words, Basically You can't have the success without the Noobs, The Noobs must come and be catered for to keep the Community alive :) been doing that and catering for them in Quake for the last 15 years, I have high hopes for QC and i'm sure it'll be more successful than QL and it would be great if it was more successful than Q3 and could keep it's Activity there rather than players going to another game, but you're right in alot of things you say and you know your stuff, there is a tier system that has been used in QL that seemed to work and improve the game for the Casual players, whats needed in my experience in Quake Live over the last 10 years is more Staff at HQ dealing with peoples issues ;) In Q3 we did'nt have that problem, bring back /rcon ! ;p Give the players what they need and you'll keep them, all they demand is Fun and the sense of Achievement.... ;) But for me it's always been about the Community and the chance to meet up in real life and make life long friends... hf gg's Peace !
I doubt quakelike games will ever disappear completely, there will always be developers and gamers that grew up playing arcade style shooters and who enjoy that type of gameplay. I highly doubt they will ever be as popular as they once were but there will always be a scene for them. Take Warsow for example, I remember vividly how my beloved Day of Defeat scene took a relatively big hit when Warsow came out but it evened out in the end(sadly, DoD has since gone the way of the dodo, that game was very fun to play competitively)
Good video but I have to point out that Quake fans did not create esports. The fighting game competitive scene existed years before Quake even though their community was a much different demographic at the time.
As much as I agree attention to a game is pretty much always down to marketing, hype, and/or being part of a known series. "Quake is getting a sequel? Neat, it's been long enough." "One of the guys who made Quake is making his own FPS? Cool, I wonder how it'll turn out." "The devs from CPMA are making their own game? What the fuck is CPMA?" etc etc
plus more so than reflex diabotical addresses some of the problems brought up in this vid. Even though 1v1 is a focus for the team, they want to change it up significantly and in ways that make it easier to understand and get into. They're also putting a large focus on modes that aren't as cut throat as duel so casual players can play the game and do alright without having to put in tons of practice.
To get such mad skrilla, check out AlphaDraft dot com! I loved Thooorin's alphadraft intros, I really hope he gets a new sponser soon to make more skrilla intros
The way you describe Quake makes it seem like you might as well just be playing chess, since there isn't really much other enjoyment to the game apart from the pure strategy and beating your opponent.
+Spurgo I don't get it why people don't understand this, I cringe every time someone says he overreacts or the evudence is shit. HE IS ONLY SHOWING YOU CLIPS SO YOU CAN MAKE YOUR OWN MIND.
doesnt deserve a video because those videos he puts are so obviously not cheat clips it makes me giggle how little knowledge of the game people like you and dan m have about the game
It's starting to be really funny how Thorin refuses to mention Call Of Duty in any positive way ... Just an FYI, originally Call of Duty was actually based on the Quake engine as well. And let's not forget that Call of Duty 4:Modern Warfare was actually a great shooter with a fairly high skillcap and had higher price pools than CS.
People laughed at me for having CoD4 lan tournament experience because they were looking at the newer CoDs. Honestly, some of the problems with CoD4 were Stopping Power, Juggernaut, and Nubetubes (I know there are more problems than that, but a fair lot of the tournaments I play have rules in which weapons and perks were banned), and it could've easily been where CS:GO sits now. You still needed mechanical skill, strategy, and teamwork in CoD4 by a fair lot. The game had more actually functional choke points than camping spots and positioning was key on the defensive end. I could go on and on, but I have to say that CoD4 isn't something to be snubbed. It just couldn't break the glass ceiling that was Counter Strike (which, at that time, was Source [because GO wasn't even in alpha state at that time]), and I can't blame people for thinking its the more competitive game. Activision had an eSports game in CoD4, but they ruined it.
The problem with quake live is that it's old with limited options. People don't play CS 1.6 anymore, they play CS GO. The problem with Quake Champions, is that it isn't an id game made from any id engine or netcode, is unbalanced, and is a blatant cash grab. If Quake Champions was like a CSGO version of Quake Live, that would be passable, but it's current form is not. THERE IS NOTHING INHERENTLY WRONG WITH QUAKE. The problem stems completely from id software not taking their IP serious, and letting it go to shit with low quality support, and releasing a cash grab title made by another company that is broken in almost every aspect, and is not a proper Quake sequel. UT is ALMOST in the same boat, as they aren't taking their game serious either, but it is coming along way better than QC. Neither game is going to go anywhere unless they go back to their roots, do a proper release, and support the community. Otherwise, only Counterstrike is going to have staying power, because Valve gives more of a shit than these morons do. Same with Blizzard's games. Quake doesn't suck, the developers suck, and they're the reason why it won't go anywhere. Right now, I think Doom is in a better position than Quake Champions, and I won't be putting any time into QC until the problems are addressed.
I think you are putting your finger on an issue with ESports generally... computer games are not considered legitimate sports by mainstream culture. There is a double standard: most people who play basketball do it in their youth for fun, or as an adult casually to socialize and for exercise, and don't really treat it like a "sport", yet people have no problem calling basketball a sport---regardless how people choose to participate. ESports are counter-culture. Here's the thing though: kids still play tennis, and chess, and basketball, and other activities with very high skill ceilings. Why will they not play a computer game with the same kind of skill ceiling? Because parents don't sign their kids up for little-league Quake. Schools don't offer Quake scholarships. But if you get really good at tennis, that is taken to say something about you as a person that is worthy of respect. ESports are not seen this way. So with ESports, people gravitate to a game they can casually enjoy, and then if they happen to organically develop a passion for it they might beat their own path towards playing it as a sport---something that will gain them basically no social accolades in the mainstream. This is why we have the paradox I take you to be highlighting: Quake may not remain a relevant ESport because it has the qualities of a great ESport. This might come down the the marketing and presentation of Quake specifically, but I think it is at least as much a consequence of our culture.
So, basically only the most hardcore fps gamers go to quake and all the rest of the fps gamers go to cs. Quake doesn't even have to be number one, but it can definitely be a spectator esport.
I know this is an old comment, but this is what's interesting to me about the Quake Question (copyright pending). So is Quake more technically demanding than fighting games despite being similar in the in-game impact of skill discrepancy between players? Since they are completely different genres, it's hard to say. But I would be surprised if it's actually significantly more technically demanding than mastering Fox in Melee which makes up 75% of that competitive player base. Both of those games even share similar barriers like skill based movement, which has been largely rejected by the casual gaming audience.
No they aren't. The only one people play is Smash Bros. And even then. Its not all that many. If it weren't for nintendo characters being in them. No one would bother with it either.
Personally I think Arena Shooters evolved into Class Based FPS like TF2, then into "Hero Shooters", or trash like Overwatch. And I think it's only a matter of time before we see someone take the best aspects of Team Fortress and Overwatch, and make something truly special. I think that whatever that game is will be an amazing team sport, but for say, a 1v1 deathmatch game....maybe look at Smash or other fighting games and something from there could come about?
Not even trying to resurrect a youtube video, but... Quake needs a hairy chested gentleman, wearing a jimmy hendrix t-shirt with a v-neck cut into the shirt. Just saying.
There is ranking in Quake Live, and there are servers for low ranking players only. Start with Clan Arena (CA), and WATCH THE CHAT. Your team mates will tell you how to play, and if you listen, you will get better relatively fast. Also, set your mouse sensitivity to 50/360, no acceleration, and just practice until you get used to it. High mouse sense in Quake will kill your accuracy. If you get into Quake Live - YOU WILL LOVE IT - at least if you like FPS's.
I usually don't share my opinions with Thorin, but he is speaking the truth. I played Q3 since trying to compete since 1999, and the part of "today you are wrecking me but someday... I will wreck you all" IT' COMPLETELY TRUE. I played on ClanBase for several years and even won a few medals with my clan, I can say the same about QuakeLive... and QL is not even the shell of the shit of what it was. I just want a really good Rocket Arena... and not the shit that CA was and is.
"This problem is the difference between *sport* and casual activity." Bingo. "This is not what Quake is about at all [casual gaming activity]. And actually, I don't see a way to make Quake like this... " I don't agree. I think some variation of Clan Arena with a smaller menu of weapons, and a subset of solid CA-maps (Overkill comes to mind) could become the foundation of a more casual-friendly intro to the game. The missing features are: (1) skill matching and/or (2) something like a "blue shell" to give lesser players a way to level the playing field. Perhaps you might argue, "that's not Quake though"? Who gives a shit as long as the classic modes are still available for those whole want to tug on Superman's cape? Get some Nintendo-style game design in there to nerf some things and then put a creepy Lovecraftian skin around it.
Just a "secret" tip for people looking for hardcore FPS. There is Unreal Tournament:ALpha(for the younger guys, it was THE game with quake 3 and CS 1.x back in the days) in making. Interesting thing is, they released alpha version and they are working on it WHILE recieving feedback from people playing it, therefore game already developed a lot since i first tried it in posivite way. It will probably never be as big as CSGO or LOL, but very interesting option for people looking for fast pure action.
Fair points , Thorin. But I think you've missed a lot, as long as logics go. Just look at football. Imagine it was never invented. Today is the day a "panel of experts" have to make a decision - make it fly, or withhold with a game of football. What kind of reasoning do you think they'd give for either decision ? - Boring game, 90 minutes, only 2-3 goals; - Green pitch with people small as ants on TV camera takes - impossible to see anything; - Even if you're in the stadium - you're more likely to sit somewhere up high and far away, and not be able to see as much; In essence, football (soccer) is extremely boring. BUT SOMEHOW, it attracts us. It's the biggest sport in the world. In essence - because it's the genesis of a world-sport-game. In recent years it has received a facial, now drama is important in football, how good the footballers look, how much money they earn and what tricks they can do. Quake (series) is a lot like that. I think it could take off, just like football - it has more personalities and they're more varied (compare evil with cypher, cooller with czm etc.) than other games, just like football. It has more tricks up it's sleeve than any other game out there, and it's a balanced. It could even have huge tournaments with huge pay-outs, just like footballers get, if done right. That would spark a lot of professional attention, and professional attention gathers a following from many people - they not only want to see greatness on TV, they want to try and follow it. There is much more to argue about, but I think it will rest on execution of the whole plan of Quake revival. But to say it's IMPOSSIBLE like you do - is going over the top, it's cynical in the sense that you don't have any more faith in humanity and you think every gamer thinks just like that little kid you gave an example of.
The best comparison to QL or QC is SC/SC2 with no campaign, in terms of very high skill ceiling and the fact as a new player you are going to get stomped hard by even someone only slightly better than you. Macro = Stacking, Micro = Aim. It’s the same reason I don’t expect RTS to make a comeback either :(
Quake 1v1 is a much better spectator e-sport than CSGO or Overwatch imo. I enjoy playing OW & Quake, but watching OW is horrible, while Quake is much easier to follow and therefore enjoyable. And as e-sport viewership rises, I can see people being introduced to it through watching it. It's still a long shot, and requires solid skill match-making.
You could also apply this to counter-strike. Look back at the playstyle on pubs between 99 and 2003, when CS was really just crushing the competition number of players wise. It was on 24/7 dust1 servers and maps like aztec where theres a couple simple choke points, you rush the enemy and face off, round after round, with no real skill or strategy. But this was the only game at the time where you could have realistic hitscan weapons with cool skins (talking about the default skins, compare the original CS mp5 to the one in half-lfie, miles better) that everyone played. As people started to master CS and the competition even on pubs evolved a lot of those casual players would later choose games like CoD and Battlefield, and find CS too unforgiving. But I agree CS is still more accessible than quake.
Guys if you want to be red pilled on why everything in culture is going to shit and we see crap like modern music, modern "gaming" and automatic transmission cars and over-complicated cars etc. just check out " Infaltion " and Jurg Gurdo Hulsman on the cultural effects of inflation. Check out the Mises Institute as well as the jewish question, economics, Plato and everything will be clear. RIP Quake :'(
You say around 19:17 that the modern player can't accept the whole "not being able to play and get some kills stuff", and that Quake can't offer that. I have to say I don't get it. Can't quake just having a ranked+MM system like every other modern game ? Quake never have an actual ranked mode. Reflex doesn't have one. UT4 doesn't really have one yet either... Overall, in the whole video, you always compare games with MM and stuff to the old Quake 1-3 that had none of this. You also say that MM in quake wouldn't work... Why not ?
Why does everyone just assume that a new Quake-style game that's going to come out now will have no matchmaking what so ever? People are shit at every game, Quake-style games are in general very intuitive to start playing, not many guns to learn (in comparison to 100+ champions in LoL and Dota, or even 22 in Overwatch all with at least 2 abilities) and the goal is in general very simple, kill the opponent. You're not just going to "jump into a server" anymore, you're going to be placed against people with around the same skill even if you're fucking shit.
surely quake champions won't be a "number one" game, but I as a quake live player don't give a flyin fuck if it has millions of players. it would be nice if it makes more people recognize the strengths of quake, mainly, the core GAMEPLAY - just the way you move and shoot, never mind all the intricacies, and could lead to a slightly bigger hype in the competitive scene. again that doesn't really matter so much to the fans of the series. an improved quake, both visually and feature wise (which is presumably what the developers are aiming for, and this is very good indeed) is a welcome refreshment and i personally am looking forward to it. the class system is somewhat of a hype generator i get it, but let's be real, old quake players are just gonna go buckwild in classic ruleset modes. in other words gimme a good looking quake with a stable player base and there's nothing to worry about. it will be popular enough i'm sure
One question that seems to be taken for granted here is: will Bethesda promote dueling as the primary e-sports form of the game? The bulk of your argument seems to be that A) quake is hard and will turn off new players and B) people enjoy team games because they can be carried to winning. I don't think you're wrong on either point, but Bethesda is a savvy bunch and they seem to understand that they must appeal to long time players while simultaneously staying on trend to appeal to new faces who may be turned off by the steep learning curve. Why not push a team based mode to make that appeal? TDM or even regular DM is great fun, and would be a welcome respite from the more objective based gameplay found in Overwatch or CS:GO. With the introduction of champions they may be following the trend of asymmetrical gameplay while keeping Quake as Quake so to speak. What other trends might they exploit? Maybe they'll implement a loot drop system like other games to keep people returning in the short term, something to entice players to stay in it even when they suck. My contention is that what popular e-sports games have in common is that they're popular, regardless of their e-sports trappings. If Bethesda can establish a broad player base then they can find popularity in general and being a popular e-sport is a short hop from there. Will it be number one again? I'd say possibly. But at the very least I think they can establish it among the other premier e-sports games, and that's exciting.
Quake can get back to the top think about all the 1 on 1 sports that are popular there is something special about 1v1 sports you need to push the personalities more you also need to like CS find a formula and stick with it and make it a simple yet deep formula and make sure you dont shoehorn silly champions or characters into it. Quake is a difficult game now because the only people who still play it are the hardcore players, if it had the same player count as CSGO it would be different.
Maybe Quake should go the path of TF2, TF2 and QWTF are distent cousins, but TF2 managed to keep it's soul in the transformation, and still is today pretty big. Quake doesn't have to be like the other new games, but still evolve, it needs to adapt to the new audiance, but only enougth for the new adiance to be able to addapt, ID kind of have to think like indi freelance game designers right now.
It seems like you're talking a lot about a player being thrown into the community that was at that time stagnant. If you threw a new league player into a game with all diamond players or even gold they would also experience the dissatisfaction of getting "wrecked', when quake champions comes out there will be plenty of new players and so long as there is some sort of ranking system I don't think those issues will remain. Even without lots of new players if it is truly 80% of players worrying about the top 20%, then in a 1v1 game type you would only run into one of the top tier players 1/5 of your games, and that's if the games are created without consideration for each players skill level or in game performance (ranking).
Late comment... The mod you're looking for at 21:40 is Navy Seals for Quake, that is what Gooseman made before he joined the A-Team and helped with Action Quake 2. Regarding Quake and eSports tho, for me it's fine that Quake is a niche. All I wish for Quake/Clone is that it has a large enough following to merit a duel lan/tournament circuit (12/year would be a dream come true). Even if you don't play Quake, 1v1 is a great spectator sport. Every major Quake event (the few that are left) has more viewers on Twitch, than we've had players the past 10 years. They also get a lot of positive feedback, because even if you don't understand all the mechanics of the game, everyone can grasp the basic concept. Also it's clean, stripped from all the arcade features of modern games, just core gameplay. I tried watching a top-tier Overwatch match, and yeah Overwatch is fun to play, but it's really bad for spectating. The main issue I have with it, is that it's really hard to see what is going on. It's not that I can't process the information, it's more that there is so much unnecessary gimmick shown on the screen, that I can't even see what cool stuff the player might be doing. This is better when spectating ingame, but it's hell on livestreams. I get what you are saying about casual players and the 80%, but maybe Quake don't need the 80% ingame, we just need them as competitive viewers. Like every real sport, many people watch, very few play. But that sounds more like a job for an event organizer than a game developer :)
There's no casuals, but they would like a challenge. You can't just assume what a group likes. Microtransactions should never be in a Quake game. It shouldn't be like CS: GO. Jumping Flash was released before Quake. It was 3D and in first person.
Thorin what you say is largely correct, but one thing you underestimate is this great institution you release your videos on. The way information is disseminated in 2016 is hugely different than what was the case in 1999. If the new quake game is good enough I can totally see enough online activity make it viable. It probably will not be no1, but the idea of a competitive, unrealistic 1v1 shooter may appeal to a new generation of gamers in a way we have never seen before.
Not sure if you will read this but don't you think the focus on 'esports' killed Quake style games? Wot I mean by this is that there used to be a competitive scene that wasn't based around esports, you used to have leagues like barrysworld and savage that had TDM & CTF leagues with 50-80 teams with different divisions which men't even casual players could enjoy competitive quake but vs teams of their own skill level. Germany, France and the states had similar large leagues too as well as Clanbase which was the 'pro' league. Fast forward to today we don't have these types of leagues anymore which means the fast majority of players aren't even playing competitively as a team they just solo queue and if they get to high ELO than maybe they will be picked up as a team.
i understand that quake shouldn't be number 1, i'm not asking it to be but at the same time i feel like people should AT LEAST have heard of quake and have a vague understanding of what it is so they can keep it in the back of their head and perhaps be inclined to check it out similarly to how you don't need a knife in csgo and it won't improve your performance, but it would be nice to have a free trial, and quake champions is free on steam if they don't like it, that's totally fine, but at least they can garner some respect for the pros and have a bit of nostalgia for how competitive gaming used to be and that giving players a medal for opening a chest in fortnite is not how we used to do it
Of course it can be #1 again. Like with any other thing on earth, you just have to pour money into it. Marketing all over the place + high prize money compos. Make a competition for fkn' 1992 wolfenstein with 2 million usd 1st prize, + even the 10th guy getting 100 000 $, and half the world will play wolfenstein again on their i7 / gtx titans.
Excellent point of view about old school games where the hardcore was the core of fun, not like now where u have a fucking checkpoint evey 20 seconds or where u cant get rekt and feel frustrated and go crying to play something dumb-easier. Impressive comparison with tennis, so accurate!
Quake makes the most sense for great suspenseful Tournaments. Also, a good singleplayer mode (like in Unreal Tournament 2004 or Quake 3) help to get into these games.. It makes it easy to practise the game like Bot games in DotA 2 or LoL do.
I agree, i think they should separate people at the beggining, they could ask you about you experience, and make veterans play against veterans, and noobs against noobs. Then the matchmaking system can adjust it all in 1 month, and everybody will be happy. Because yes, the difference between a good quake player and a noob is massive, maybe more than any other game.
Casuals.... the curse of the Warframe Conclave.... ppl come to play a pve game where you can cheese your way through masses of brainless ki. But if they try to play its pvp mode they'll meet other ppl that actually might have mastered the game mechanics (movement, aiming, tactics, you know what I mean) and get rekt ofcourse. guess who is gonna complain on reddit and the forum.... * sigh * * smh *
I wonder how big of a factor it is that the primary competitive mode doesn't match with the more fun yet still competitive casual mode. So something like 1v1 in Quake and SC versus FFA(Q) or lets say BGH(SC).
@Thooorin if quake will never come back due to its skill cap and steep learning curve, why has starcraft been such a staple in esports for so many years? starcraft has always embodied high skill gaming imo.
Um... except this is exactly what happened with the original DOTA though, it was built on worldcraft 3, never intended to exist, people loved it so they made it an actual game.
But here is the question. Let's make quake hard as usual, but then have a "competitive matchmaking system" and see if it works? I mean, if you play against someone that is your skill level and it's a close match, that is a fun game.
I'm a fan of quake and I totally agree with you. But games like street fighter also share the same problem of not being casual friendly and got rebirth in 2008 thanks to Street Fighter 4 and now the competitive scene is really healthy even though the casual crowd that play these games is still little compared to other games. I hope that Quake Champions will be what Street Fighter 4 was for the fighting games scene, arena FPSes really need that game that will bring the genere back to life again
At 14:55 I just love this point I can Soo realate to it new games don't have the reward of getting better than another player like Quake did,if esports are sports I think Quake is the most sportish of them all it requires the most practice and "Quake fitness" like real sports training in Quake is hard but pays of so well
Isn't it ironic that quake is too much like a real sport in terms of the skill and experience required to be a top esport? That doesn't bode well for esports because by preferring an entertaining show to real, skill based competition you end up with something like professional wrestling in the long run.
DotA 2 has a huge learning curve and is the biggest esport in the world. And no, it's not even slightly fun getting crushed by a much better player in CS or DotA.
This is pretty much dead on except for the fact he forgot to mention that ID software already sacked what made Quake great when they made the travesty that is Vanilla Quake 3...
in 5v5 you could have olofm as an enemy but maybe there is a kennys on your side. your own mistakes becomes less of a factor. Or the game is capable to give you satisfaction even if your impact was quite low.
![Wolfram Physics Project: Working Session Wednesday, Apr. 29, 2020 [Finding Black Hole Structures]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/SbDzqlOLIZA/mqdefault.jpg)
It's sad that a game that shows true skill could never be number 1.
Back in the Days we had Quake 3 Arena, Starcraft 1 and Counter Strike on the Top.
So yes there was a Time.
Do you still play it?
quake champions wont even be a true skill game because of the character classes - one of which will have x-ray vision SMH
timbo slice
I said the same, but after they anounced that Quake Champions will be PC only i have at least minimum Hopes.
The biggest Question is, can ID step up and reach the old Quality or killed Bethesda everything.
Shin Tenkai i have zero hope for any fps game with loadouts / perks / ultimate abilities / character classes -
Quake champions was my first quake and I love it so much. Love spending 3 hours to get one bridge to rail strafe jump.
My friends on steam all quit within an hour
Well this was unexpected video
Is it? With quake champs and diabotical coming out I think it was only a matter of time.
+messik it was a surprise to me....
These are my favourite, especially since i'm not into the LoL or CSGO scene.
+Justin those are the only two relevant scenes lol
Dota :)
The netcode comparison isn't really fair because HL and Quake have very different style of hitboxes. Quake uses basically 2 squares to create their hitbox which makes "regging" shots alot easier because there is less information that needs to be relayed to make the calculations. HL has always used a more precise hitbox setup where it is possible to miss through legs and just the overall structure is more complicated to relay that information.
The gist is: id Software games are like arsty music and LoL-like games are like "commodity music".Great analogy, compelling arguments, fam. Subscribed.
the new titan fall 3 ad looks sick
So now that World Championship for Quake Champions is around the corner, how do you think about this topic now?
TAKE A LOOK AT QWC THORIN the playoffs have been fucking INSANE !!!!!!! grand final tonight then maybe a great new WHO IS video - VOO !
Fuck its insane how people don't even look how good QC is to watch and the level of skill. At least watch some games from this weekend it sbeen so hype. People suck at games if they dont appreciate this game
why does quakeworld have a high skill ceiling anyway? All the map movement tricks?
"qauke wasn't even designed as a multiplayer game"
You need to get a clue Thorin buddy. So where did maps like dm4, dm5, etc, included in the game, came from? Hint: "dm" stands for "deathmatch".
"Rage through 32 single player levels and 6 deathmatch levels of sheer terror..." - original id software marketing. They also ran Quake ads like "kill your friends"...
They also released a client "quakeworld" the same year, which was a 100% deathmatch client. It even had somewhat different physics, that's what we nowadays mean when we say quake engine.
next time, do a fact check plz, this is almost completely clueless bullshit.
I'll tell you a story. I'm 21 years old now and I started playing quake abut 2 years ago. My brother had recently picked it up and I thought 'hey I may as well'. I remembered playing a bit of quake 3 a while ago when I got my first pc and even then before that when my older brothers were introduced to it by a friend at a land party. It was the first First Person shooter game I had really ever played. I by the very definition got rekt by them when I was trying it out. They were quite shit as well but I was about 10 at the time so it's fine for that to happen. All the bright colours from all these amazing weapons. Gothic themes and fast paces fluid movement. I enjoyed it so much. I couldn't really think for myself or have much in the way of understanding how good of a game it actually was, I just knew I liked it, everything it had to offer. I didn't know how to strafe jump but I saw other people jumping around so whatever. I hijacked anyone's pc to play because I needed to play as much as possible. Eventually everyone got bored of quake and started playing diablo 2, and I didn't see quake again. After that lan and a few years later when I got my own pc one of the first games I installed was quake 3 arenas. We didn't have internet, so I couldn't play online. I didn't even know that's what it was meant for. I fired it up with bots and started working my way through the levels. I can win, bring it on, hurt me plenty, hardcore and nightmare... Wow, Xaero was hard... I can tell you now I never managed to beat him. I had consumed quake to the extent that it allowed me and I got bored. With no one else to play with and completely ignorant to the online gaming community and e-sports itself. I knew who fatality was, though. My brother had one of his motherboards, though I didn't even know he played quake. Anyways that brings me to when I finally found out about quake live. I thought 'hey quake online, lets try it out'. Its a small community where I live and people mostly played clan arena so I joined it. wow... I can't tell you how long I spent looking at other people play while I waited for the round to end and for me to finally get back in there. I was infuriated at how these people were so good. If one of them pulled out the lightning gun in a open space I needed to back off else I'd die. I just couldn't compete with their aim. The constant rails from these pros, all I could do is bring out the nade launcher and hold a front for me team while we tried to win. I saw someone make the bridge to rail circle jump on Campgrounds and I thought... 'interesting glitch'. Then I saw everyone else do the same damn thing. I fired up a local game and I spent hours practicing that jump. I just couldn't do it. I watched videos and tried again. during loading times for the round to begin I'd try the jump then hide away somewhere. After a few weeks I finally started to get it. The next step was making sure I could get it 100% of the time. Then someone told me I wasn't strafe jumping right. That I should practice the strafe jumping map. I honestly didn't think strafe jumping could be harder than that circle jump. But because of the deeper understanding of the games mechanics from practicing the circle jump it was a bit easier, but no less painful to get down. I kept at it. playing. eventually getting a proper mouse with a 'perfect sensor' and good mouse pad. I started to experiment with my cfg. I found out most pros used acceleration so I started tweaking it. disabled damage numbers for my lg. found a good crosshair for it. Then I saw someone get the bridge to rail backward... I honestly didn't know that was even possible. It makes sense now, knowing quakes full range of motion. I started to get good in clan arena. I could out do people with the lg, sometimes my score would be around the top. I think once it was even at the top. Then someone told me about dueling and how that's where the actually competitive scene is. I started a duel vs this guy I destroyed in clan arena, and guess what happened. He destroyed me. I then dueled an equal in clan arena and he annihilated me 20 to -2. I thought I was reaching the top of the skill ceiling in quake but the honest truth is I hadn't even come close. The next day I tried to duel someone who was actually good. He's one of those guys that could go pro if he played more and didn't already have a life. People say that but in this case its true. I honest to god pro. The kind of guy who needs to duel the best of the best to have an even match. That first duel on ztn(bloodrun) ended with a score of 62 to -2. he killed me on average of once every 10 seconds. His constant rails. this overwhelming feeling of helplessness far worse than the first clan arena match I had more than a year ago. He didn't let me do anything. I'd get a weapon then die. It was one of the worst feelings I've had. since then I've dueled him well over 100 times and many more pros just as good as him many more times. I've climbed a short ladder leading nowhere and haven't managed to beat one of them. but I'll tell you this. that first guy that I dueled that raped me but I dominated him in ca normally. Well I'll win every game vs him without dying. Its not bragging its just that he's too easy to read. He doesn't try to prevent me from taking control of the map. He doesn't punish me where he should and as a result I there isn't anything he can do. vs the pros I now end up with a score of about a 2 to 1 ratio. I've even had the lead every now and then. It's much better than the original 60 to -2. I'm starting to understand that quakes skill level isn't in landing shots. It's predicting and outsmarting your opponent. The shots is a requirement, the perfect movement is required, the circle jumps is something that must just happen every time or else you'll lose, if you don't have perfect timing of mega you'll lose, if you can't see that you must actually leave red alone and run to mega to contest it or else your opponent will get it for free then work your way back to red achieving two things. One disrupting his timing of the item, and two actually preventing him from getting any stack making him a threat on the map you'll lose.
respect
Dude, you make me feel old. I've been playing Quake for 21 years. lol
i feel like aim and game sense are both skillful necessities though
Veteran Quake Player here (not very good though xD)
About 14:09, in order to make high skill ceiling videogames viable for the average gamer, you only need a good matchmaking system that won't match up those players with people that are obviously better. Is that simple.
DOTA 2 and LoL have also very steep learning curves and are hard to master and still have plenty of low skilled players having fun with them.
I don't know if a new Quake game might become popular or not but I know for a fact that if the skill ceiling is very high (as high as other Quake Games), it would not be a detrimental factor on it's popularity as long as the matchmaking system is decent. There are other factors that need to be tanken care off, like the expectator experience on fast paced team based fps games (which is literally SHIT in all games I've seen, like Quake TDM, Wolfenstein, Overwatch, etc). Following a fast paced/team based fps game is a nightmare for the average expectator. It is just not an enjoyable experience. On the contrary, focusing on one pro player is easy to follow but does not make any sense on team based games, obviously. That's why Quake duels where so popular back in the days and even non Quake players could enjoy it.
I think your matchmaking thing is the big problem. Addressing his sports example, your not playing against pro tennis players at all times. Or at all really. You generally play against people around your skill level. If your new you play against new players. It's like that for many popular games as well. I don't play CS against Olofmeister, I play against other bad players :D If a few new players got together and played Quake (as someone who's watched some but never played it) it seems like it would be fun for them to play against each other.
But you also need a decent sized playerbase for matchmaking to work as intended. I assume the amount of people playing Quake is fairly small compared to other games, and/or it isn't drawing in new players. If this is true, this also helps cause what he was talking about, where the new player is stomped into the ground during their first few matches. If a playerbase is small, it is (or at least seem to be) likely that the average player is much better at the game than the avg. player of a more popular game. They've been playing for longer and been more devoted to the game. Those people are much more passionate about Quake as a game than random kids playing CoD (for example). They have stuck with it for long enough to get good. If there aren't enough low skill/new players to match the new player against they will be forced to play against people who are much better than they are, or not get into a game at all. New players are thrown into the deep end, and this generally isn't good for player retention.
No Aim No Gain Exacly that is what I have been saying. The MOBA genre is hardcore as fuck for new players, and yet LoL is the most popular game on the planet. To say that Quake can't be popular because it has a high skill ceiling is ridiculous. Also, Quake has one big advantage over other games, it is easy to just pick up and play. The average FFA match lasts what? 4-5 minutes the most? That is a FAR CRY from the 40 minutes or so that LOL matches last. Also FFA has the advantage of not putting any burden of responsibility on the player, he/she is up for himself, and doesn't need to worry about his team mates yelling at him when they lose.
And lastly, Quake is very easy to learn. It is an incredibly easy game for a newbie to understand and is a very fun game to play casually. The ONLY issue I see is the whole "new players will get crushed by veterans" thing which can be easily solved by the matchmaking system you brought up and that exists on every fucking game nowadays. C'mon ID, it's not that hard
find a gamemode that shines in the AFPS genre and play against others of whom you have a chance against, and quake can be big again
I´ve been a Quake admirer for years, followed the birth and eventual death of arena type e-sports shooters. I knew how hard the game was, so I never got into it, but it was great as visual spectacles go. Then QL came out. I made an account. Set up the keys. Went in and did the obligatory vs AI matchup, which was supposed to tell you your rank for better matchmaking. After that, jumped into the server. First game, FFA, 1 kill.... 50 deaths. Mind you, I had about 3000+h FPS experience by then, in slower games, sure.
I gave QL a few more tries, eventually got to 0:3 KDR in a round, but I dropped. The game just felt like work. It was hard, exhausting, harsh and unrewarding environment, dominated by the veterans of the scene. That being said, I would never want QL to be anything different. That also means Quake will never be fun for casual chaps who dont spend 50h a week in a videogame. Which is depressing, because Quake represents something very special.
I guess very reliable matchmaking could turn it around, but Quake Live proved that whatever matchmaking system should be used, it should be developed at some fucking brain trust, funded by Darpa and done by captured and enslaved talent from the lead AI developers in the world...
try lowering your mousespeed, go for atleast 25 cm/360
Word, 9 overtimes one just one map. And for the video, Thorin's speaking the truth. But Quake could bring in "casuals" without seeping out the essence of Quake. I just want a DM game with a player base large enough to not have to search for pickups on iirc/discord to get a decent match.
I can say it definitely doesn't take that long. While Quake 3 was first fps game i ever played, i never played it much, and later i started playing quake live and got straight into tier 3 in ffa. I don't know how much it matters but i was playing on crt at 85hz(later 120hz) and that was before high hz lcd screens became popular.
Very old comment to reply to, but Capture The Flag with a group of friends is soooooo good! That's mainly how I have played arena shooters. Back then it was easy to get 10+ people to connect via LAN and hang out for a weekend, so perhaps that's not as easy to get going these days.
@@snook.1 those were the days! Definitely worth the time and fun back then.
Arena shooter is the word you are looking for in the intro
Thorin, do you have any interest for overwatch as an E-sport?
I guess he isn't, or he would create content for it. Overwatch is created from the ground up to be a casual, fun experience, not hardcore competition. Much like other Blizzard games like Hearthstone (!) and Heroes of the Storm it has a competitive scene. Overwatch scales very good with skill and can create intense matches, but it is just not comparable to a game made on a competitive basis.
I saw him make some overwatch esports related tweets, so he probably follows the scene.
It's just a little too new to have analysis for it, he can't really be a historian and say: 2 weeks ago this team was dominant and was carried by this guy. Plus patches come so rapidly almost every week and major ones every 3 months. So you should definitely wait for a meta to settle down and get some history behind these teams to do proper analysis.
Overwatch is a great fun good looking game but there should not a pro scene for it
Tbh in its current state its not even competitive
" Overwatch is created from the ground up to be a casual, fun experience, not hardcore competition"
You could replace Overwatch with LoL and it would still hold true so what now ?
Underestimating Joe Rogan and his army.
Old school shooters are better, I do have bias cause I'm older but if I ignore that the faster paced game is generally better from a spectator sport. It's just more exciting. I would adore a change to older FPS standards, the most fun I've had in years in traditional DM, TDM was on Tribes/Tribes Ascend. Again there is bias to my opinion that can't be denied.
I'm not really older and I agree with you. Old games are better and I have no "nostalgia" or "bias" because I played newer and older games at the same time.
Not to mention 1v1 is inherently more interesting to watch because you never miss anything. There's no chance of spectating the larger group of players only to have the lurker on the other side of the map end up getting a 3k for example. In cs it's not that big of a deal because of the game's pacing but part of the problem with games like OW is that it can be really difficult to capture all the action in a way that's interesting for the spectators.
Sad times for Quake, the best game.
Best fps maybe, not best game.
quake champions is a superb game. arenas will be back. as terminator once said !
As a Reflex and TF2 6s player this is a really hard pill to swallow tbh.
Meanwhile us UT competitive players getting no spotlight :'(
Well it might never have been the number 1 *in player count* for obvious reasons. However, quake players are known to be like the tier-0 of FPS gaming; *put even Quake non-pros in any easier game such as CS and they will be miles ahead of the other players.* It is amusing to watch "quake pros", or "Team Fortress Classic players", or "older game veterans" simply jump into a new game and automatically compete with the pros there or completely destroy their opponents within minutes of adjustment because their base skill and knowledge is just that high.
Quake has not added any accessibility and maintained the fact that pro players used to be around 2x better rather than only around 0.5x better than the vast majority of players. This means the vast majority will have the experience where even if they try their best they won't be able to kill a better player unless they have about a 1-5% stroke of luck. Unfortunately many RTS with actual balance are seeing the results of this: Dawn of War 3, any new and balanced RTS, will see literally a 1% of players who are way better at the top, and target that upper 5-10%, and people still don't like that "level of complexity" even though it has been dumbed down for them. They want to be able to compete at an easier game. In CS, this is probably somewhere around 40% chance in terms of a bad player killing a better player; they took out so many aspects to make it more accessible. Random accuracy (shots that can just 'hit' with no reason at all,*"gambling/instant gratification"), no movement allowed (basically just a stand still simulator), counter-strats /weapons gone, the reflex and shot is basically just CS and everyone can "point-and-click". With raw old-school mechanics and little to no focus on accessibility for "the other 90%" who are not at the top of the curve, it never overtook in community numbers as the 'casuals' in Quake are typically 'top tier' in any self-proclaimed e-sports title. Even older games with actual healthpoints where it's impossible to kill in one shot without a combo of attacks were never as popular as a dumbed down game that anyone can play. In comparison with Valve games, or self-proclaimed so called esports games, they are overly simplified and use esport scenes as a fake market for hype and attracting children.
This generation can't enjoy something like quake because they are used to short term, easy gained gratification. Most of us don't care about long term improvement, sadly. On top of that, people can't take loses, and have little dedication, which is needed to get better at a deep game. About a year ago I got into fighting games myself, I got my ass kicked for about a month, but now I love it and keep getting better. There is also the social aspect. Team games combine social team play together with easier gameplay, and so it is clear what games will be more popular. It's sad this is the way it is, but on the bright side, there will always be a highly dedicated player base in most difficult game genres. That is especially true in fighting games. A smaller player base also means less kids. I tried playing league a few times, and every time, chats were full of retards spamming "report report". I much rather play with a smaller player base that has no salty kids. So that is fine by me.
try reflex
yeahhhh duuude all these dumb kids cant even pay attention and stuff maaaaan. Back in my day we didnt have all these short attention span call of battlefields and what not
What do you mean by this generation? I never understood the term so if you could clarify that would be lovely.
I'm different from my current generation. I'm about to turn 15 and I love arena shooters even if I suck. I'd rather get destroyed in a match of Quake and learn than never play Quake.
I mean people born in the 90s or 2000s. Myself, I was born in 92.
The thing is, and what I realize is going to be the downfall/death on arrival of Quake Champions, is the fact that no one my age plays Quake. I'm fifteen, and kids my age really just don't know what Quake is. They had played Doom and knew what it was, so when Doom 4 came out it was successful to my age group. Not because it was an arena shooter, but because it was familiar. Kids my age haven't even heard of Quake, so it's going to launch without any of my generation to play it and try to get good. Even if they had heard of it, you're right, the competitive aspect down to the lowest levels of Quake can never truly be enjoyed by a casual player. Quake Champions is going to launch and the way they're marketing it, plus the issues I just talked about, are going to kill it faster than it can recover.
_sick 0 1 year later, Quake Champions gameplay has improved immensely and on Steamcharts QC looks to have about 1000 ish concurrent players per day. That's dismal compared to Overwatch and CS GO, but not dismal enough to say it's dead yet.
I don't think something as extreme as what you're suggesting will come to pass, but your points are all valid. We'll just have to wait and see how Bethesda and id software can promote their new esport once it officially releases.
@@Crazd22 qc sucks now it had horrible performance issues and it's not con every conse like doom 2016
I really feel for quake and other hardcore games. Id love to get more into a game such as quake but i know its gonna be lonely, noone of my friends has it in them to actually sit down and get slaughtered for hours against better players. Like even now when i play cs:go with my friends, we just fuck around really and shoot stuff. We dont actively try to improve at the game. Its fun and all but sometimes abit unsatisfying.
TF2 might be more popular as a casual game but it really has a high skill ceiling compared to games like Overwatch.
I also think TF2 is the only popular game that has the most resemblance to Quake (TF was born as a mod for Quake after all, and its classes were based around the Quake weapons)
I remember someone once saying that OW's skill ceiling is as high as a house, TF2's skill ceiling is as high as a cathedral, and Quake is a skyscrapper.
I just get frustrated when i play cs:go, i just hate it when weapons don't hit where i aim, while in quake its not so annoying when im doing bad. I rather spend hours practicing strafejumps than how different weapons recoil. I never understood why tf gets compared to quake, its far from it.
Agree to 100%
Skill level to high.
I play 99% duel. Im bad at it. Max Elo was 1450. But:
Its pure
Its fast as hell
Its tactics
Its reading other minds
And if i lose to a 2000 elo guy, im more fascinated with what kind of ease he crushed me, instead of being scared.
I mean in which game you can compete with players which are at the top. You cannot play agains NBA players, but in QL you sometimes can. And its funny :D
Speaking of Overwatch, it's ridiculous how easy it is to beat pros there. The outcome of a match is so random that I've beaten many of the top players in Solo Queue (while they were playing with their teammates). It's the complete opposite of Quake where you can't accomplish anything as a newbie.
lol, this comment is an obvious lie.
Btw RNG in cs:go is so much much much bigger then in Overwatch...
Caron do you even play overwatch?
jade XY Yes and?
YexaC Yea. Because aim... oh sorry reflex is the only skill you can have in any game. xD Poor CS fanboys.
I agree, screw RNG games. I have put over 5k hours into CS:GO and the RNG and horrible netcode/hitboxes ruins it. "RNG in a skill based game" is a meme for a reason in that game. Can I add you on Steam bro?
I really hope QC blows up
Great video. I just hope they don't dumb down Quake, trying to make it move like Overwatch.
that's my biggest concern. Quake is such a skilled game. As far as pure technical skill is concerned it's probably the most demanding shooter in that department. I could imagine being a csgo pro but being a quake pro seems impossible :D. The moves those guys pulled off.
+Gapi P I've seen the QuakeCon leak, trust me it's not that big of a deal.
Both Overwatch and Quake are great games and require skill for each. I understand that the best pro players in Quake have probably the best aim in the world up there with the best CS and UT players. But OW players team play needs to be amazing and aim and ult management and to be diverse etc xx
quake requires WaY more skill than ow
You need some skill for anything if you make it into a compo, even a pie-eating contest. But most games after quake are based around series of noobifications compared to quake. Never was that more true than with overwatch. These comparative noobifications can be easily recited, factually, case-by-case.
So... wouldn't a even decent skill ranking / match making system fix everything you mentioned?
Yeah if the dev's and marketers of these new arena shooters were competent
This video is spot on. I think ID should embrace quake's legacy and cultivate an allure around the game as a purist FPS for the most competitive players while promoting duel mode as a spectator esport. I love playing CSGO but I find it's not very engaging to watch a 5v5 match when the "camera" can only show one of the ten player's perspectives at any given time. Duel mode in quake however is some of the most engaging gamplay to watch in esports IMO. I think most esport games are like golf - it's enjoyable to the people who play, but it not that engaging for most people to watch on TV. Quake has the potential to be like UFC - very engaging to watch despite that fact that most people who do don't practice MMA. Quake arguably is the only true spectator esport and ID should really exploit this aspect of the game.
I agree that without mainstream interest, Quake 1/2/3 can't be on top again. However, I think that the gameplay itself could be relevant again if it were in a mainstream vehicle (I don't want to get my hopes up for Quake Champions, but that's the obvious example). Being popular/mainstream provides the necessary playerbase that answers a lot of the issues you're raising. That's what was wrong (or right?) with Quake Live, where it was populated almost exclusively by Quake 3 players who are very good at the game and it was very hard for new players to get into. I feel strongly that Quake 3's gameplay is still extremely solid and isn't duplicated by other high skill ceiling games (FPS movement/accuracy/map control). I think it deserves to find a space in esports, if said vehicle ever materializes. Won't hold my breath for it, of course.
Coestar And I think that it is also relevant the fact that Bethesda and Id never really put any real effort in Quake Live from what I've seen
from horses to cars put that backwards for bf1
bf1 looks interesting and fun. but i cant see a ww1 shooter being at all competitive.
well im not looking it at a comp seen but there are esports of it even though it esports seen isn't big but what they do is just do what cod does change the rules alot to make it like a esport
+ForgottenRebel77 I don't think bf1 is supposed to be esport.
put bf4 esport in the search
Visual every cod and bf has competitive players but it's the players who create the scene and not the publishers who promote it.
I agree with everything, but mate, Pink FLoyd were the kings of the 70s.
Keep on doing great critics Thoorin.
The fast arena style shooters like Q3 and more specifically CPM wont be number 1 again because they are simply too fast to follow for the average viewer. Watch something like the Bulgarian Odyssey and tell me the average viewer is going to watch more than 5mins of that lol. They wouldnt know what the fuck was going on, where as something like CS is very easy for the average person to follow, not necessarily understand all the finer details, but to follow casually.
The single-player of Quake was actually way better than you give credit for but agreed, Quake is basically the grand-father of all serious online multiplayer gaming. The mods were what really made Quake the game it was though - you could play Team Fortress or a ridiculous amount of other mods for Quake and have endless fun on public servers or get right into some serious competitive death-match / CTF / Team Fortress etc in your clan (QWTF is still the original and *BEST* team-fortress experience out there, coming from someone who has literally played every iteration of the "Team Fortress" mods for Quake's many versions and the Half-Life mods and full-blown stand-alone Team Fortress).
People forget too that it was actually Quake's Team Fortress scene which really got behind CS in the early betas and made it incredibly popular with everyone playing online games. A die-hard group still played both but most of us realised that the original Wireplay Team-Fortress leagues we were playing in would probably never get big enough coverage and if pro-gaming was going to become a realistic possibility it would be from another game. Then when CS beta 4 came along a whole host of clans from QWTF started playing CS. Clans in the early UK scene like [SG] (Spice Girls), [EQ], FWD, [sas], [UKLA], [TA], [13] etc and the European clans like EYEballers and countless other European Counter-Strike clans were all comprised of oldskool QWTF players which instantly established a pretty competitive scene focused on aim and high-skill gameplay (and bunnyhopping, because CS used the same air-movement system Quake employed and we all found out you could bunnyhop VERY early on in the game's life) which made everything snow-ball from there. That is the reason CSGO even has a scene in the first place, rather than VALVe's involvement after they bought the rights from Cliffe and Goose. Without Quake's online mods we most likely wouldn't have competitive first-person shooters as an "esport" to this day though.
Personally I really hope Quake Champions is a success - and from what I've played so far of it, it's already proving to be pretty popular with the old Quakers from back in the day. If the guys can establish a good competitive scene like we had back in the days of QWTF, Quake 3 Arena, CPMA pro-mode etc then the sky is the limit for this kind of esport in my eyes. Quake is a dueling game mainly and some of the duels I've seen so far in the Quake Champions tournament qualifiers for Quakecon have been nothing short of epic. I think depending how much support iD and Bethesda give the game will make or break the competitive scene - if they do it right then Quake Champions can easily rival and surpass a LOT of esports out there and establish itself as the number one competitive 1 vs 1 first-person shooter / dueling esport.
Edit: I think the mod you were struggling to remember was actually called "Navy Seals" or "Seal Team" - I played it a bit but the following for it was practically dead compared to the amount of people just playing Quakeworld Team Fortress or straight death-match / TDM / CTF.
I'm depressed
It'd be cool to hear your thought's on The GD Studio's Diabotical as well as the new Quake.
You nailed it. Nowadays, a game must be mediocre to be commercial. Just like almost everything else.
"Mobas can never overtake Starcraft"
"CS:GO is a terrible game and will never be as big as 1.6."
"SC2 is THE esport, people saying it's dying are exaggerating."
"Hearthstone will never have a competitive scene."
It just needs enough players.
The game itself doesn't really matter, CS:GO, League and Hearthstone are shit for competitive but they all have huge scenes.
People just need to want to play it, and therefore want to watch it.
CSGO only grew because of skins while 1.6 was popular and lasted for 12 years.
+Ave true to Caesar CSGO as in the game or the competitive scene, hopefully you meant the game in general
Whats your point? Yes Hearthstone has players competing each other. What does that mean though when its a ultra casual card game with huge RNG swings. In the music world, a shit artist like Justin Bieber gets hugely popular compared to elite artist with years and years of refinement and sophistication such as a jazz quartet. There are casual shits destroying culture in all areas of life
I don't understand how hearthstone grew so large in terms of competitive scene, when it is sooooooo heavily based on RNG.
Hey we can safely add Overwatch into that list now too :D
I think Halo and MLG helped to keep esports alive in the early 2000's that you didn't really mention.
don't you feel that mentioning a game like Halo near Quake is pretty silly? OOh we had greek classical theatre, but after that got done we had a guy clicking spoons together in the village, totally keeping the culture alive
That's disrespectful, but I doubt you have much knowledge of Halo, maybe even less of your own scene in quake.
Thomas Fraser Did you just bring up a fucking console game LOL
Regardless of your opinions of games involved MLG was a pretty big component of eSports and had a lot of impact.
Early non-Korean SC2 was basically the MLG circuit with the occasional IEM, there were some iconic moments from that era.
MLG actually popularized modern esports in the western world. I play a lot of UT/CS but I admit that halo/CoD really brought that mainstream scene for FPS games. Also, playing controller vs keyboard/mouse are different disciplines. I guarantee a PC player with no controller experience would get fucked by good players on the console(same the other way around).
To be honest, when talking about the first online fps games, I have always thought that Starsiege: Tribes was the best suited for actual competetive gameplay. I remember back in the day when my old friends played in one of the best European Tribes clans, those matches were intensive as shit. Skiing to the enemy base In Raindance, killing yourself and dropping the flag mid-air to a teammate while the enemy was hunting the flag carrier. Good times.
This video just makes me feel old and im only 26
Duel is not unattractive to "casual" Quake players because of supposed increased skill requirement. I don't even think it is the case that duel is somehow more skill demanding. That's what a lot of people like to think because that's the main competitive mode, but it did not become the main competitive mode due to its skill requirements. It became the main competitive mode for logistical reasons.
Skill requirement is not why duel is unattractive to "casual" Quake players. It is unattractive because it changes the nature of the game. I've been playing Q3 (and QL) sporadically since it first came out. I love the game, it offers something that no other game does. I have almost always played FFA. I don't care much for duel. For me, Quake is an extremely fast paced, intense skill focused non-stop combat action massacre. Duel is not that. Item control is the most important facet of Quake dueling, and defensive play style is much more at place there. Just look at top QL players. Between great aim and great defense, great defense consistently wins.
Btw, I've watched some Quake Champions gameplay on YT, and I really like what they've done with the game. The time limit is now 5 min (I remember when 10 min in Q3/QL was considered very short) and there's only 3 lives, so the matches are much faster, more dynamic and combat focused. Also, the addition of the champions with different stats and abilities shifted focus from item control to combat quite noticeably. It happens much more often in QC that a player would try to get frags before getting stacked. I think Quake Champions may have a great future and has actually a potential to resurrect competitive Quake in a big way. It may become DOTA to Overwatch'es LoL.
I wish so much that TDM would come back... I was at the top of the food chain for Quake 3 1v1 and TDM... stx-revenant
Thorin, Thanks also for doing this. It's great for some Nostalga... Dwango... holy shit I haven't heard that in years... I used to play on the CompuServ Doom 2 Ladder... I was 7 years old... I remember SpaceManSpiff and Dicky were the two guys that I could not beat. Man... the OLD days... wow
Good old Days with Clanarena, CPL, ESWC, WCG and LANs, LANs, LANs.
I trained and played for fun on LANs with a Friend who played in Ocrana, PoD, dr ect. it was so much Fun to play Q3A on a high LEvel until Diablo 2 stole my Time and i could never catch up again because Quake 3 was evolving so fast.
Thorin brought back some good Memories, but at the same Time it is realy sad to see how unpopular Arena Shooters are.
But what he said makes sense, the Casual Player from today is different from what we were back in the Days where we where running around in Quake 3 and never used the Jump Button or when who aimed with the Rocketlauncher on the Enemys Head insted of lower Parts.
We were Casuals in the Beginning but willing to invest Time and Blood into our beloved Games.
Greetings from Germany and Quake for Live!
Let's hope the new quake will be similar enough to q3 / qw / quake live so we can destroy all the OW 12yearolds, who think bunnyhopping is jumping in one place making binded emote-sqeals.
quake rocket jumped so csgo could run and overwatch could walk
Thanks for using Y axis as up and down like an intelligent person.
So to sum up in a few words, Basically You can't have the success without the Noobs, The Noobs must come and be catered for to keep the Community alive :) been doing that and catering for them in Quake for the last 15 years, I have high hopes for QC and i'm sure it'll be more successful than QL and it would be great if it was more successful than Q3 and could keep it's Activity there rather than players going to another game, but you're right in alot of things you say and you know your stuff, there is a tier system that has been used in QL that seemed to work and improve the game for the Casual players, whats needed in my experience in Quake Live over the last 10 years is more Staff at HQ dealing with peoples issues ;) In Q3 we did'nt have that problem, bring back /rcon ! ;p
Give the players what they need and you'll keep them, all they demand is Fun and the sense of Achievement.... ;)
But for me it's always been about the Community and the chance to meet up in real life and make life long friends... hf gg's Peace !
i wish this aged well
so the problem isn't with Quake, its with people
I doubt quakelike games will ever disappear completely, there will always be developers and gamers that grew up playing arcade style shooters and who enjoy that type of gameplay. I highly doubt they will ever be as popular as they once were but there will always be a scene for them. Take Warsow for example, I remember vividly how my beloved Day of Defeat scene took a relatively big hit when Warsow came out but it evened out in the end(sadly, DoD has since gone the way of the dodo, that game was very fun to play competitively)
"there will always be developers and gamers that grew up playing arcade style shooters",
for at least another generation there will be...
FTFY
Good video but I have to point out that Quake fans did not create esports. The fighting game competitive scene existed years before Quake even though their community was a much different demographic at the time.
It made it into what it is today
I have more expectations in Diabotical than Quake Champions tho.
As much as I agree attention to a game is pretty much always down to marketing, hype, and/or being part of a known series.
"Quake is getting a sequel? Neat, it's been long enough."
"One of the guys who made Quake is making his own FPS? Cool, I wonder how it'll turn out."
"The devs from CPMA are making their own game? What the fuck is CPMA?"
etc etc
I think it's because of who is making Diabotical.
diabotical looks incredibly fun tho :D. Seriously it looks INCREDIBLY fun!
plus more so than reflex diabotical addresses some of the problems brought up in this vid. Even though 1v1 is a focus for the team, they want to change it up significantly and in ways that make it easier to understand and get into. They're also putting a large focus on modes that aren't as cut throat as duel so casual players can play the game and do alright without having to put in tons of practice.
I have pledged in the kickstarter campaign, its the only game I was willing to put my money to0, except for Quakelive in steam
If only i had 300$ so i could play 2 hours of vidya games with ya boi thorin. Too bad i don't have that mad skrilla
To get such mad skrilla, check out AlphaDraft dot com! I loved Thooorin's alphadraft intros, I really hope he gets a new sponser soon to make more skrilla intros
The way you describe Quake makes it seem like you might as well just be playing chess, since there isn't really much other enjoyment to the game apart from the pure strategy and beating your opponent.
Quake is superior to chess.
We need u to make about youtuber called Dan m or do a video with him. check his channel u will see what I mean. CSGO cheaters.
Dan exaggerates way too much. The majority of 'evidence' he comes up with is bullshit.
+Spurgo I don't get it why people don't understand this, I cringe every time someone says he overreacts or the evudence is shit. HE IS ONLY SHOWING YOU CLIPS SO YOU CAN MAKE YOUR OWN MIND.
+Hippo SQ ._.
yh i get it but still it will be good if thorin could make a video about him and talk about him.
doesnt deserve a video because those videos he puts are so obviously not cheat clips it makes me giggle how little knowledge of the game people like you and dan m have about the game
Players can't handle the fastness quake brings.. Sad :/ It's so much more fun than cs:go, been there since 98, so played it all..
It's starting to be really funny how Thorin refuses to mention Call Of Duty in any positive way ...
Just an FYI, originally Call of Duty was actually based on the Quake engine as well. And let's not forget that Call of Duty 4:Modern Warfare was actually a great shooter with a fairly high skillcap and had higher price pools than CS.
People laughed at me for having CoD4 lan tournament experience because they were looking at the newer CoDs. Honestly, some of the problems with CoD4 were Stopping Power, Juggernaut, and Nubetubes (I know there are more problems than that, but a fair lot of the tournaments I play have rules in which weapons and perks were banned), and it could've easily been where CS:GO sits now. You still needed mechanical skill, strategy, and teamwork in CoD4 by a fair lot. The game had more actually functional choke points than camping spots and positioning was key on the defensive end. I could go on and on, but I have to say that CoD4 isn't something to be snubbed.
It just couldn't break the glass ceiling that was Counter Strike (which, at that time, was Source [because GO wasn't even in alpha state at that time]), and I can't blame people for thinking its the more competitive game. Activision had an eSports game in CoD4, but they ruined it.
Mazadox & Tek9 Stevy ... never forget
*I hope that one day quake will retake the crown*
The problem with quake live is that it's old with limited options. People don't play CS 1.6 anymore, they play CS GO. The problem with Quake Champions, is that it isn't an id game made from any id engine or netcode, is unbalanced, and is a blatant cash grab. If Quake Champions was like a CSGO version of Quake Live, that would be passable, but it's current form is not.
THERE IS NOTHING INHERENTLY WRONG WITH QUAKE. The problem stems completely from id software not taking their IP serious, and letting it go to shit with low quality support, and releasing a cash grab title made by another company that is broken in almost every aspect, and is not a proper Quake sequel.
UT is ALMOST in the same boat, as they aren't taking their game serious either, but it is coming along way better than QC. Neither game is going to go anywhere unless they go back to their roots, do a proper release, and support the community. Otherwise, only Counterstrike is going to have staying power, because Valve gives more of a shit than these morons do. Same with Blizzard's games.
Quake doesn't suck, the developers suck, and they're the reason why it won't go anywhere. Right now, I think Doom is in a better position than Quake Champions, and I won't be putting any time into QC until the problems are addressed.
I think you are putting your finger on an issue with ESports generally... computer games are not considered legitimate sports by mainstream culture. There is a double standard: most people who play basketball do it in their youth for fun, or as an adult casually to socialize and for exercise, and don't really treat it like a "sport", yet people have no problem calling basketball a sport---regardless how people choose to participate. ESports are counter-culture.
Here's the thing though: kids still play tennis, and chess, and basketball, and other activities with very high skill ceilings. Why will they not play a computer game with the same kind of skill ceiling? Because parents don't sign their kids up for little-league Quake. Schools don't offer Quake scholarships. But if you get really good at tennis, that is taken to say something about you as a person that is worthy of respect. ESports are not seen this way.
So with ESports, people gravitate to a game they can casually enjoy, and then if they happen to organically develop a passion for it they might beat their own path towards playing it as a sport---something that will gain them basically no social accolades in the mainstream. This is why we have the paradox I take you to be highlighting: Quake may not remain a relevant ESport because it has the qualities of a great ESport. This might come down the the marketing and presentation of Quake specifically, but I think it is at least as much a consequence of our culture.
So, basically only the most hardcore fps gamers go to quake and all the rest of the fps gamers go to cs. Quake doesn't even have to be number one, but it can definitely be a spectator esport.
Fighting games have a high skill ceiling though, alas a noob will get wrecked over and over, and they are still popular
I know this is an old comment, but this is what's interesting to me about the Quake Question (copyright pending). So is Quake more technically demanding than fighting games despite being similar in the in-game impact of skill discrepancy between players? Since they are completely different genres, it's hard to say. But I would be surprised if it's actually significantly more technically demanding than mastering Fox in Melee which makes up 75% of that competitive player base. Both of those games even share similar barriers like skill based movement, which has been largely rejected by the casual gaming audience.
No they aren't. The only one people play is Smash Bros. And even then. Its not all that many. If it weren't for nintendo characters being in them. No one would bother with it either.
Personally I think Arena Shooters evolved into Class Based FPS like TF2, then into "Hero Shooters", or trash like Overwatch. And I think it's only a matter of time before we see someone take the best aspects of Team Fortress and Overwatch, and make something truly special.
I think that whatever that game is will be an amazing team sport, but for say, a 1v1 deathmatch game....maybe look at Smash or other fighting games and something from there could come about?
21:30 It's Navy Seals Mr self proclaimed esports historian
Forgot your Kappa
Not even trying to resurrect a youtube video, but... Quake needs a hairy chested gentleman, wearing a jimmy hendrix t-shirt with a v-neck cut into the shirt. Just saying.
There is ranking in Quake Live, and there are servers for low ranking players only. Start with Clan Arena (CA), and WATCH THE CHAT. Your team mates will tell you how to play, and if you listen, you will get better relatively fast. Also, set your mouse sensitivity to 50/360, no acceleration, and just practice until you get used to it. High mouse sense in Quake will kill your accuracy. If you get into Quake Live - YOU WILL LOVE IT - at least if you like FPS's.
I usually don't share my opinions with Thorin, but he is speaking the truth. I played Q3 since trying to compete since 1999, and the part of "today you are wrecking me but someday... I will wreck you all" IT' COMPLETELY TRUE.
I played on ClanBase for several years and even won a few medals with my clan, I can say the same about QuakeLive... and QL is not even the shell of the shit of what it was.
I just want a really good Rocket Arena... and not the shit that CA was and is.
"This problem is the difference between *sport* and casual activity." Bingo.
"This is not what Quake is about at all [casual gaming activity]. And actually, I don't see a way to make Quake like this... "
I don't agree. I think some variation of Clan Arena with a smaller menu of weapons, and a subset of solid CA-maps (Overkill comes to mind) could become the foundation of a more casual-friendly intro to the game. The missing features are: (1) skill matching and/or (2) something like a "blue shell" to give lesser players a way to level the playing field. Perhaps you might argue, "that's not Quake though"? Who gives a shit as long as the classic modes are still available for those whole want to tug on Superman's cape? Get some Nintendo-style game design in there to nerf some things and then put a creepy Lovecraftian skin around it.
Just a "secret" tip for people looking for hardcore FPS.
There is Unreal Tournament:ALpha(for the younger guys, it was THE game with quake 3 and CS 1.x back in the days) in making.
Interesting thing is, they released alpha version and they are working on it WHILE recieving feedback from people playing it, therefore game already developed a lot since i first tried it in posivite way.
It will probably never be as big as CSGO or LOL, but very interesting option for people looking for fast pure action.
Fair points , Thorin.
But I think you've missed a lot, as long as logics go.
Just look at football. Imagine it was never invented. Today is the day a "panel of experts" have to make a decision - make it fly, or withhold with a game of football. What kind of reasoning do you think they'd give for either decision ?
- Boring game, 90 minutes, only 2-3 goals;
- Green pitch with people small as ants on TV camera takes - impossible to see anything;
- Even if you're in the stadium - you're more likely to sit somewhere up high and far away, and not be able to see as much;
In essence, football (soccer) is extremely boring. BUT SOMEHOW, it attracts us. It's the biggest sport in the world. In essence - because it's the genesis of a world-sport-game. In recent years it has received a facial, now drama is important in football, how good the footballers look, how much money they earn and what tricks they can do.
Quake (series) is a lot like that. I think it could take off, just like football - it has more personalities and they're more varied (compare evil with cypher, cooller with czm etc.) than other games, just like football. It has more tricks up it's sleeve than any other game out there, and it's a balanced. It could even have huge tournaments with huge pay-outs, just like footballers get, if done right. That would spark a lot of professional attention, and professional attention gathers a following from many people - they not only want to see greatness on TV, they want to try and follow it.
There is much more to argue about, but I think it will rest on execution of the whole plan of Quake revival. But to say it's IMPOSSIBLE like you do - is going over the top, it's cynical in the sense that you don't have any more faith in humanity and you think every gamer thinks just like that little kid you gave an example of.
The best comparison to QL or QC is SC/SC2 with no campaign, in terms of very high skill ceiling and the fact as a new player you are going to get stomped hard by even someone only slightly better than you. Macro = Stacking, Micro = Aim. It’s the same reason I don’t expect RTS to make a comeback either :(
Quake 1v1 is a much better spectator e-sport than CSGO or Overwatch imo. I enjoy playing OW & Quake, but watching OW is horrible, while Quake is much easier to follow and therefore enjoyable. And as e-sport viewership rises, I can see people being introduced to it through watching it. It's still a long shot, and requires solid skill match-making.
You could also apply this to counter-strike. Look back at the playstyle on pubs between 99 and 2003, when CS was really just crushing the competition number of players wise. It was on 24/7 dust1 servers and maps like aztec where theres a couple simple choke points, you rush the enemy and face off, round after round, with no real skill or strategy. But this was the only game at the time where you could have realistic hitscan weapons with cool skins (talking about the default skins, compare the original CS mp5 to the one in half-lfie, miles better) that everyone played. As people started to master CS and the competition even on pubs evolved a lot of those casual players would later choose games like CoD and Battlefield, and find CS too unforgiving. But I agree CS is still more accessible than quake.
Guys if you want to be red pilled on why everything in culture is going to shit and we see crap like modern music, modern "gaming" and automatic transmission cars and over-complicated cars etc. just check out " Infaltion " and Jurg Gurdo Hulsman on the cultural effects of inflation. Check out the Mises Institute as well as the jewish question, economics, Plato and everything will be clear. RIP Quake :'(
You say around 19:17 that the modern player can't accept the whole "not being able to play and get some kills stuff", and that Quake can't offer that.
I have to say I don't get it. Can't quake just having a ranked+MM system like every other modern game ? Quake never have an actual ranked mode. Reflex doesn't have one. UT4 doesn't really have one yet either...
Overall, in the whole video, you always compare games with MM and stuff to the old Quake 1-3 that had none of this.
You also say that MM in quake wouldn't work... Why not ?
Why does everyone just assume that a new Quake-style game that's going to come out now will have no matchmaking what so ever? People are shit at every game, Quake-style games are in general very intuitive to start playing, not many guns to learn (in comparison to 100+ champions in LoL and Dota, or even 22 in Overwatch all with at least 2 abilities) and the goal is in general very simple, kill the opponent. You're not just going to "jump into a server" anymore, you're going to be placed against people with around the same skill even if you're fucking shit.
surely quake champions won't be a "number one" game, but I as a quake live player don't give a flyin fuck if it has millions of players. it would be nice if it makes more people recognize the strengths of quake, mainly, the core GAMEPLAY - just the way you move and shoot, never mind all the intricacies, and could lead to a slightly bigger hype in the competitive scene. again that doesn't really matter so much to the fans of the series. an improved quake, both visually and feature wise (which is presumably what the developers are aiming for, and this is very good indeed) is a welcome refreshment and i personally am looking forward to it. the class system is somewhat of a hype generator i get it, but let's be real, old quake players are just gonna go buckwild in classic ruleset modes. in other words gimme a good looking quake with a stable player base and there's nothing to worry about. it will be popular enough i'm sure
One question that seems to be taken for granted here is: will Bethesda promote dueling as the primary e-sports form of the game? The bulk of your argument seems to be that A) quake is hard and will turn off new players and B) people enjoy team games because they can be carried to winning. I don't think you're wrong on either point, but Bethesda is a savvy bunch and they seem to understand that they must appeal to long time players while simultaneously staying on trend to appeal to new faces who may be turned off by the steep learning curve. Why not push a team based mode to make that appeal? TDM or even regular DM is great fun, and would be a welcome respite from the more objective based gameplay found in Overwatch or CS:GO. With the introduction of champions they may be following the trend of asymmetrical gameplay while keeping Quake as Quake so to speak. What other trends might they exploit? Maybe they'll implement a loot drop system like other games to keep people returning in the short term, something to entice players to stay in it even when they suck. My contention is that what popular e-sports games have in common is that they're popular, regardless of their e-sports trappings. If Bethesda can establish a broad player base then they can find popularity in general and being a popular e-sport is a short hop from there. Will it be number one again? I'd say possibly. But at the very least I think they can establish it among the other premier e-sports games, and that's exciting.
Quake can get back to the top think about all the 1 on 1 sports that are popular there is something special about 1v1 sports you need to push the personalities more you also need to like CS find a formula and stick with it and make it a simple yet deep formula and make sure you dont shoehorn silly champions or characters into it.
Quake is a difficult game now because the only people who still play it are the hardcore players, if it had the same player count as CSGO it would be different.
Maybe Quake should go the path of TF2, TF2 and QWTF are distent cousins, but TF2 managed to keep it's soul in the transformation, and still is today pretty big. Quake doesn't have to be like the other new games, but still evolve, it needs to adapt to the new audiance, but only enougth for the new adiance to be able to addapt, ID kind of have to think like indi freelance game designers right now.
It seems like you're talking a lot about a player being thrown into the community that was at that time stagnant. If you threw a new league player into a game with all diamond players or even gold they would also experience the dissatisfaction of getting "wrecked', when quake champions comes out there will be plenty of new players and so long as there is some sort of ranking system I don't think those issues will remain. Even without lots of new players if it is truly 80% of players worrying about the top 20%, then in a 1v1 game type you would only run into one of the top tier players 1/5 of your games, and that's if the games are created without consideration for each players skill level or in game performance (ranking).
Late comment...
The mod you're looking for at 21:40 is Navy Seals for Quake, that is what Gooseman made before he joined the A-Team and helped with Action Quake 2.
Regarding Quake and eSports tho, for me it's fine that Quake is a niche. All I wish for Quake/Clone is that it has a large enough following to merit a duel lan/tournament circuit (12/year would be a dream come true).
Even if you don't play Quake, 1v1 is a great spectator sport. Every major Quake event (the few that are left) has more viewers on Twitch, than we've had players the past 10 years. They also get a lot of positive feedback, because even if you don't understand all the mechanics of the game, everyone can grasp the basic concept. Also it's clean, stripped from all the arcade features of modern games, just core gameplay.
I tried watching a top-tier Overwatch match, and yeah Overwatch is fun to play, but it's really bad for spectating. The main issue I have with it, is that it's really hard to see what is going on. It's not that I can't process the information, it's more that there is so much unnecessary gimmick shown on the screen, that I can't even see what cool stuff the player might be doing. This is better when spectating ingame, but it's hell on livestreams.
I get what you are saying about casual players and the 80%, but maybe Quake don't need the 80% ingame, we just need them as competitive viewers. Like every real sport, many people watch, very few play.
But that sounds more like a job for an event organizer than a game developer :)
There's no casuals, but they would like a challenge. You can't just assume what a group likes.
Microtransactions should never be in a Quake game. It shouldn't be like CS: GO.
Jumping Flash was released before Quake. It was 3D and in first person.
Thorin what you say is largely correct, but one thing you underestimate is this great institution you release your videos on. The way information is disseminated in 2016 is hugely different than what was the case in 1999.
If the new quake game is good enough I can totally see enough online activity make it viable. It probably will not be no1, but the idea of a competitive, unrealistic 1v1 shooter may appeal to a new generation of gamers in a way we have never seen before.
Not sure if you will read this but don't you think the focus on 'esports' killed Quake style games? Wot I mean by this is that there used to be a competitive scene that wasn't based around esports, you used to have leagues like barrysworld and savage that had TDM & CTF leagues with 50-80 teams with different divisions which men't even casual players could enjoy competitive quake but vs teams of their own skill level. Germany, France and the states had similar large leagues too as well as Clanbase which was the 'pro' league.
Fast forward to today we don't have these types of leagues anymore which means the fast majority of players aren't even playing competitively as a team they just solo queue and if they get to high ELO than maybe they will be picked up as a team.
i understand that quake shouldn't be number 1, i'm not asking it to be but at the same time i feel like people should AT LEAST have heard of quake and have a vague understanding of what it is so they can keep it in the back of their head and perhaps be inclined to check it out
similarly to how you don't need a knife in csgo and it won't improve your performance, but it would be nice to have a free trial, and quake champions is free on steam
if they don't like it, that's totally fine, but at least they can garner some respect for the pros and have a bit of nostalgia for how competitive gaming used to be and that giving players a medal for opening a chest in fortnite is not how we used to do it
Of course it can be #1 again. Like with any other thing on earth, you just have to pour money into it. Marketing all over the place + high prize money compos. Make a competition for fkn' 1992 wolfenstein with 2 million usd 1st prize, + even the 10th guy getting 100 000 $, and half the world will play wolfenstein again on their i7 / gtx titans.
Excellent point of view about old school games where the hardcore was the core of fun, not like now where u have a fucking checkpoint evey 20 seconds or where u cant get rekt and feel frustrated and go crying to play something dumb-easier. Impressive comparison with tennis, so accurate!
Quake makes the most sense for great suspenseful Tournaments. Also, a good singleplayer mode (like in Unreal Tournament 2004 or Quake 3) help to get into these games.. It makes it easy to practise the game like Bot games in DotA 2 or LoL do.
I agree, i think they should separate people at the beggining, they could ask you about you experience, and make veterans play against veterans, and noobs against noobs. Then the matchmaking system can adjust it all in 1 month, and everybody will be happy.
Because yes, the difference between a good quake player and a noob is massive, maybe more than any other game.
Casuals.... the curse of the Warframe Conclave.... ppl come to play a pve game where you can cheese your way through masses of brainless ki.
But if they try to play its pvp mode they'll meet other ppl that actually might have mastered the game mechanics (movement, aiming, tactics, you know what I mean) and get rekt ofcourse. guess who is gonna complain on reddit and the forum.... * sigh * * smh *
I wonder how big of a factor it is that the primary competitive mode doesn't match with the more fun yet still competitive casual mode. So something like 1v1 in Quake and SC versus FFA(Q) or lets say BGH(SC).
@Thooorin
if quake will never come back due to its skill cap and steep learning curve, why has starcraft been such a staple in esports for so many years? starcraft has always embodied high skill gaming imo.
Um... except this is exactly what happened with the original DOTA though, it was built on worldcraft 3, never intended to exist, people loved it so they made it an actual game.
But here is the question. Let's make quake hard as usual, but then have a "competitive matchmaking system" and see if it works? I mean, if you play against someone that is your skill level and it's a close match, that is a fun game.
I'm a fan of quake and I totally agree with you.
But games like street fighter also share the same problem of not being casual friendly and got rebirth in 2008 thanks to Street Fighter 4 and now the competitive scene is really healthy even though the casual crowd that play these games is still little compared to other games.
I hope that Quake Champions will be what Street Fighter 4 was for the fighting games scene, arena FPSes really need that game that will bring the genere back to life again
At 14:55 I just love this point I can Soo realate to it new games don't have the reward of getting better than another player like Quake did,if esports are sports I think Quake is the most sportish of them all it requires the most practice and "Quake fitness" like real sports training in Quake is hard but pays of so well
Isn't it ironic that quake is too much like a real sport in terms of the skill and experience required to be a top esport? That doesn't bode well for esports because by preferring an entertaining show to real, skill based competition you end up with something like professional wrestling in the long run.
DotA 2 has a huge learning curve and is the biggest esport in the world. And no, it's not even slightly fun getting crushed by a much better player in CS or DotA.
This is pretty much dead on except for the fact he forgot to mention that ID software already sacked what made Quake great when they made the travesty that is Vanilla Quake 3...
in 5v5 you could have olofm as an enemy but maybe there is a kennys on your side. your own mistakes becomes less of a factor. Or the game is capable to give you satisfaction even if your impact was quite low.