This is why Gandalf's declaration to the Balrog of being an agent of the Secret Fire is still one of my favorite scenes in both the book and movie. To anyone that knew going in, that was pretty much him saying "God personally sent me to kick your butt!"
It’s interesting to note how both Gandalf and the Balrog were also present in making the music of the Ainur, of course in their original Ainu forms. The Balrog back then was among the other good Ainur trying to fight Melkor’s distortion.
Indeed, I also understood that quote as if he was saying that he was there by God’s will. I assume that made the Balrog think, even if for a microsecond, about all he had done in his existence and how he had turned against God. Which is why I believe that the Balrog was both angry at Gandalf for reminding of whom he once was, but also of God’s inevitable judgement on him. No wonder he tried to attack Gandalf and then sought to flee.
@Joe PenguinPtakk No, Gandalf would have wanted to keep the ring secret, especially to an enemy. In The Silmarilion, it is very clear that Secret Fire refers back to the creative power of Ilúvatar.
I think that due to Tolkien’s Catholic faith, the “Secret Fire” may be the Holy Spirit of God (Iluvatar), which gives true life to everything in Tolkien’s books. 🔥
"There are other forces at work, besides that of evil." The one that started it all in the beginning. Makes me wonder if men even worshiped or knew his name into the 4th age. But I'm glad that he didn't intervene directly most of the time. By doing so it would have violated the essence of free will, something he gave to all life. But I can see him, at the end of all things, seated on high with all his children, smiling with kindness and love.
Aragorn definitely knew about Eru, as he was a given in Numenorean and Elvish philosophy that survived among the Elves and in Minas Tirith. The King of the Numenoreans is also the religious leader, but outside of having personal faith in Eru, seeing death as a gift, symbols like the White Tree and some customs and prayer-like sayings there's not much overt religion.
As the Istari Gandalf said, "There is more at work in this world than the will of evil..." and if actions are the seed of fate, then it is through the actions of the great champions of Arda that the will of Ilúvatar was worked upon the world.
I’m not sure whether that is about his Catholicism or just pure convenience since he uses the Gregorian calendar for Middle Earth 🤔 But yeah interesting observation nonetheless 😄
a lot of old Nord holidays had either the Yule, Festival of Seasons on the winter solstice, or the Germanic Worship of Satun it was Romanization that took Europe's Pagan Holidays combined them in Christmas.
@@peteynutt4104 sorry sir but thats not likely true. Yule is medieval and didn't arise until the 6th century. Saturnalia was held Dec 17th and Christmas is held Dec 25th. These theories of the origins of christmas stemming from pagan holidays are 20th century theories that are no longer held by the majority of scholars.
"The harder you try to hurt me, the more you are helping me". Damn, that would be devastating to hear from from someone you didn't like, especially if it's true.
"Beren and Luthien" is more beautiful, obviously. But yeah, it is quite a tale! And I love how it's all metaphysical, plodding and then ... BAM! WAR OF THE FUKKING WRATH! Like, Warhammer's got nothing on this! They're gonna have to try harder! WoW(...what an acronym, huh?) is like super high fantasy...but I'd love a book devoted to it(imo, Beren and Turin didn't really need it, later chapters of Silmarillion are super fast tracked, so Wrath, Gondolin, Earendil etc needed it far more).
@@goransekulic3671 More beautiful in YOUR opinion, you mean. But I do agree, at least, that Beren and Lúthien is one of the most beautiful tales in Tolkien's Legendarium. And regarding the War of Wrath, Eärendil, and Gondolin, etc., Perhaps Tolkien would have either gotten around to writing books dedicated to them or expand upon them in the Silmarillion had he had the time before he died.
Due to Tolkien’s Catholic faith, I do see the hierarchy of spiritual beings in Middle-Earth as follows: Iluvatar : God Valar : Arch-Angels Maiar : Angels Also I do see the “Secret Fire” of Iluvatar referenced in the creation stage of “The Silmarillion”, and which Gandalf references in the fight with the Balrog in “The Lord of the Rings” as being the Holy Spirit, which gives true life to everything. 🔥
Good point, the term “Ainur” can refer to any of Iluvatar (God’s) created Angelic beings, either “Valar” (Arch-Angels) or “Maiar” (Angels). Thank you for pointing this out. Arch-Angels in Tolkien’s works are also known as the “Valar”. Although the first 14 of these retained their good nature from Iluvatar (God), the 15th and unmentionable of the “Valar” rebelled and is the fallen Melkor / Morgoth. His chief servant Mairon / Sauron was a “Maiar” of the good “Valar” Aule, before he decided to follow Morgoth down the same “ruinous path down into the void” (The Silmarillion).
Like the overwhelming majority of the “Valar” (Arch-Angels) who retained their original good nature from “Iluvatar” (God), it is stated in “The Silmarillion” that the vast majority of the “Maiar” also kept their good nature and continued to dwell with “Iluvatar” in the “Timeless Halls” (Heaven). However, although the “Valar” tended to dwell in “Valinor” (the Undying Lands), some of these good “Maiar” did decide to dwell in “Middle-Earth” (the world), among the most well-known and beloved was Melian, whose daughter Luthien together with Beren really kicked both Sauron and then Morgoth’s butts in the “Quest of the Silmaril” in the First Age. The other was Gandalf (Olorin), who came to successfully help the free-people’s of Middle-Earth against Sauron, and finally defeated him in the Third Age. 🧙♂️
Part of the Gift of Iluvatar to Men was that they made their OWN fates, and were not bound to Fate as set by Iluvatar which ruled all other beings in Arda. That was why they leave this world and go to the next. " But to the Atani I will give a new gift.' Therefore he willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else; and of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest. But Ilúvatar knew that Men, being set amid the turmoils of the powers of the world, would stray often, and would not use their gifts in harmony; and he said: ''These too in their time shall find that all that they do redounds at the end only to the glory of my work.' Yet the Elves believe that Men are often a grief to Manwë, who knows most of the mind of Ilúvatar; for it seems to the Elves that Men resemble Melkor most of all the Ainur, although he has ever feared and hated them, even those that served him." For the Elves die not till tile world dies, unless they are slain or waste in grief (and to both these seeming deaths they are subject); neither does age subdue their strength, unless one grow weary of ten thousand centuries; and dying they are gathered to the halls of Mandos in Valinor, whence they may in time return. But the sons of Men die indeed, and leave the world; wherefore they are called the Guests, or the Strangers. Death is their fate, the gift of Ilúvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy. But Melkor has cast his shadow upon it, and confounded it with darkness, and brought forth evil out of good, and fear out of hope. Yet of old the Valar declared to the Elves in Valinor that Men shall join in the Second Music of the Ainur; whereas Ilúvatar has not revealed what he purposes for the Elves after the World's end, and Melkor has not discovered it.
That men are "a grief to Manwe," or that we have something in common with Melkor, makes a lot of sense, when you think about it: Melkor must have been made to embody something that Eru needed in the universe, and so could not have existed for nothing. But with his Fall, Melkor couldn't personify this thing that Eru needed anymore, and so he may have decided to try again, very differently, with the creation of Men: mortal beings who would be embodiments of the same thing Melkor was meant to, but with less power, greater numbers, and shorter lives. Manwe could never help but be reminded of his "brother" in human beings, and there's no way that wouldn't have saddened him.
@@TheSaneHatter I have read theories, to which I agree, that Melkor once an angel of fire so to speak, was the embodiment of creativity and wonder, which is why he had a bit of the gifts the One gave to all the other Ainur, as he was to be the sub-creator in chief, innovating his way into a fuller, richer creation, beyond the more limited designs of his kindred. Instead he got into his mind he wanted to be an all-powerful creator and tried to have/be what he could not so he fell. His pride mirrors our own, a la original sin, though that part in the legendarium is not quite as developed nor as clear a parallel to the Bible, but it is there. I guess Men grief Manwë so much because in having this freedom from fate, the freedom to sub-create, and to waste it through corruption is to indeed mirror Melkor a little bit at a time, and to work towards his ends and not to the betterment of Arda, as was intended.
@@AugustusR I can't help but imagine Manwë found both Grief and joy in man grief because man reminded him of melkor in his darkest stages when he was evil but I also like to think before this he was a big brother to the others and manwë remembers those times just as man may mirrors the darkness he also saw man mirrored the light as well
Yes, because humans, Men, and Elves could not defeat such Evil as was in the Ring created by Sauron. Frodo endures its temptation right up until the bitter end and then fails. His failure is all our failure when it comes to conquering Evil in the world, it can not be done by our hands. Only God can counter such power, and it is Eru, in an act of Divine Intervention that pushes Gollum over the edge and destroys the Ring. Frodo takes it as a failure but no being could have destroyed the Ring. Only Eru Iluvatar.
Well i heard another theory : Eru showed himself only 3 times , 1. when he drowned the Numenoran people , 2. When he helped Bilbo find the ring in Mirkwood 3. When the gandalf fell with the balrog and came to life again. I also read the Silmrailion and still cant find the sentence where Eru pushed Gollum into the lava.
Well yes and no i think. Gollum made the oath to help Frodo and an oath in Tolkiens work is magical and if you break it you get a punish. Gollum fell as a punish for breaking his oath. Eru himself punish the oathbreaker in general so yes he dropps him but not to destroy the ring, only to punish Gollum This is my idear Sorry for my bad english I am german
His letters are not necessarily canon. Implied Canon is rather that Frodo and Gollum invoked the Ring's Power to bring about a conditional curse as part of its excellence in dominating lesser races, the hobbit being greater than that of whatever Gollum had become. The Ring, containing part of Sauron's spirit and thus also his arrogance, which also fits the overall themes weaved around Sauron, led to his downfall when the Ring itself overestimated its own excellence when its own curse took precedence over its own survival. It was made to dominate foremost, its own survival was only second to that goal: The Ring destroyed itself in its path to dominate a lesser being, similar to how Sauron himself lost the Third War and his military ambitions towards the Free Peoples because of his arrogance and underestimation of what he deemed to be lesser races.
The idea that Eru was quietly and secretly directing certain events and characters, like the Ring being lost in the river for so long, Bilbo being in the right place at the right time, passing it on to Frodo, Gandalf being involved, all of these things happened so specifically it almost certainly was the work of Eru. As Gandalf points out to Frodo in both the book and the film "Bilbo was MEANT to find the ring and therefore, YOU were MEANT to have it". Awesome video. Love the parallels between Eru, Melkor and the creation to Christianity's: God, Lucifer, and the creation. Fascinating stuff.
I wouldn't say that when Eru confronts Melkor that Tolkien is saying that evil also comes from Eru. (The rebelion of Melkor from the will of Eru is the will of Eru, which makes no sense and is Eru contradicting himself). But that all authority and power that Melkor had to influence the music was given to him by Eru and that Eru knew exactly what he would do. Thus regradless of what Melkor chose to do Eru knowing it and giving him the authority to do would not affect the ultimate fate of Arda contrary to the will of Eru. Redardless of Eru wanting certain choses to be made or not he had the power to take the evil and turn into good and his ultimate will being made fulfilled.
It’s a beautiful thought that J.R.R. Tolkien may have been blessed with Eru Ilúvatar’s knowledge, that he was perhaps deemed worthy of telling the lost times to the children who had long forgotten, and his son, Christopher, was perhaps worthy of having this knowledge passed unto him.
It all makes sense. The Silmarillion is the Elvish bible. Our bible is the bible concerning our relationship with God and Man. But because man is mortal, he chose tribe of Israel and then a savior Christ, who is Eru himself. Which if Tolkien considered Eru Iluvatar the catholic God, the Blessed Trinity, then it also reveals that in some other works, that some time in the third age, it was mentioned that Eru would someday enter Arda to save his children. Providing a way forward in this broken lonely world, which is, sadly until the end of time, Arda Marred, Morgoth's Ring. Does this all make sense?
@@ReidGarwin In a philosophical standpoint yes, you're right. Eru was influenced mainly through Norse myths and Eru Iluvatar in this way is not in three persons, as we read in the legendarium. His devotion to the Catholic Church however, inspired him to express his belief in God in his works, whether expressly Triune or not. If you read his letter in the Silmarillion he explains to someone who doesn't know Middle Earth, what the purpose of his work is for. It is not an allegory, neither is he a guide for us to believe or behave, he is more of a storyteller really, and I think the word he said was Applicability? And applicability opens up our view more wonderfully of our Middle Earth. His devotion to God and Europe sums up what is to be discovered in this wonderful world of Middle Earth.
@@ReidGarwin Despite Eru Iluvatar's philosophy, it is interesting that Tolkien would consider The Lord Of The Rings "a fundamentally religious and catholic work." And I guess in order to find out is to only read the books I suppose lol.
If I may ask, how is Eru a part of a trinity in Middle-Earth? I am only curious as I have read the story of Middle-Earth from a Jewish perspective as I am Jewish myself though I am interested in seeing things from other people's perspectives.
Awesome video Yoystan. This one is unique. This is THE ONE, THE All FATHER, the Master Creator of Arda and the whole universe, in fact of all existence. We finally get to Eru. The fact that he knew before hand of all the events that were to take in place in Arda before Arda even existed is purely mind blowing.
I think he took an active role during the "War of the Ring." Just consider how many events had to occur *just so* for the quest to be ultimately successful. That makes for great story telling because Tolkien was never clumsy about it, but it also makes one think, "That's just too many coincidences to occur at random in a universe with a known guiding force in it."
He only interfered twice in the quest, though. The resurrection of Gandalf after his Death, which only a being higher than the the Valar could do. And he caused Gollum to fall into the fires of Mount. Doom destroying the One Ring.
Depends on your own personal view of faith and free will. Is everyone chained to a set path or does that path subtly change as we make our choices which lead to multilple possible endings that all were accounted for. I personally think that in this story good would inevitably succeed no matter the choices made. If sauron regained the ring he likely would incite the valar to come save the day regardless but this was a last resort in case men could not save themselves of their own free will thus making most interventions useless. Frodo earned his by accomplishing everything he could and only falling to what even demigods fell to earning erus mercy
@@jazuqua I see most of the "chances, as we call it" as the work of the Valar, though they were acting according to Eru's strictures. The clouds parting so a final gleam of sun could give Frodo and Sam some encouragement at the crossroads, Sam calling on Varda when fighting Shelob, Manwe sending a wind to speed Aragorn's ships to the relief of Minas Tirith, the sun breaking through to help Merry and Eowyn destroy the Witch-King, you could make a substantial list. I have long thought that one of the saddest moments was Saruman's spirit looking to the West before a wind dissipated him into nothingness.
Yoystan, I must say that, for a 23 year old, you seem very mature, gracious, and wise. Indeed, more so than most people of any age. You also display an impressive knowledge of philosophy. Nice voice too :-)
Very good video Yoystan. Long time viewer, first time writer. As you hinted at towards the end, fate is indeed mysterious. Yes, we should believe that we will play the roles we were meant to play. But that is frustrating not knowing what they are. Oh, and good job pronouncing all those names at the end 😀
'Time before time' Darn it Yoystan, I come to your channel not for Bionicle but Tolkien! Jk, this was a great video (as if you ever make any other kind my friend). As to Eru, love how he isn't simply a one-note character but a complex character in his own right, one with flaws and virtues who can be debated into the ground. One who it can be debated how much of a role he played in the events of the Lord of the Rings and even the Silmarillion at various points.
I read C.S Lewis before Tolkien, and one of the things I liked about Lewis is that he's very blunt with how he shows his faith in his writings. I know it can be a turn off for some, but I thought it was a nice change of pace from so many writers dancing around those kinds of issues (also I'm one of those people who doesn't read subtly well, so it helped get the point across for me). When I first started getting into Tolkien, the only thing I knew going in was that he was responsible for Lewis's conversion, and as such I was expecting some similar kind of illustration of his faith in his writings, and while I clearly saw an acknowledgement of the ideas of honor, courage, and mercy in his work, it was still lacking that display of his faith that Lewis had in his writings. But when I first heard of the Silmarillion, and specifically of Eru Iluvatar, I literally thought, "Oh, THERE it is!" Needless to say, I'm glad Tolkien included him in his work, if only because it helped highlight his stance on matters of faith, creation, and the meaning of life.
Tolkien and Lewis had very different opinions on the use of allegory in fiction. That’s why Tolkien was much more subdued in his works but the basic themes are still there.
@@cm275 And both made very good works. Lewis's writings are what I would describe as deep and simple, while Tolkien is more deep and complex; he clearly put more effort into his world building than Lewis. Neither is bad or wrong, they just give different results.
@Sasquatch Farms If you are interested in a Narnia lore channel, check out Into The Wardrobe. It's only been around for a few months and is still growing/developing, but I think it does have potential to be the Men of the West of Narnia channels.
I want to thank you. For your kind and relaxing voice. And ofc good content. These few years and few last months have been hard. I am happy and glad, there is youtube content makers like you. Helps us go though hard times. Much love for you.
Tolkien was not a Deist. He was Roman Catholic and therefore a Christian Theist. Roman Catholic theology is Augustinian and Augustine accepted both Fate/Predestination and Free Will. There is no contradiction between Fate and Free Will. As Neils Bohr once said "The opposite of a fact is falsehood but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth."
Well done, one of your best. But too many commenters thinking they have answered questions that have eluded “professional” philosophers for millennia, with just one or two sentences.
Can't wait for the what-if video for what if Gandalf never fell at the Bridge of Khazad-dum and continued with the fellowship to Lothlorien and on forward?
I think that Eru allows Freedom in his children as part of his grand design. That is why Evil can come to exist, and that is why Eru intervenes so rarely and indirectly. If his main role is really to enforce destiny and oaths, to make thinks be what they /ought to/ be, then he must take a step back to allow free choices as well. And that is also why the original world must exist with evil but also ultimately end, and be recreated with the input of the ones who have lived in it and actually experienced free choice (which would be impossible if Eru just dictated the best way of doing things).
In my Fantasy universe My creator deity is named Sai Rrte Iru, The Light of All. or rather its the name his creations gave him. as he just refers himself as just I. never read the Simarillion at age 8 so didn't know Illuvitar also had Iru as his name. As well he is a passive god, as i give rules to my gods rules that if broken the Being would cease to exist. His case is one of exhaustion as i imagine it takes a lot of power both metphyiscal as well as.psychically to create a Universe. As stated in the Halls of the One. The first miracle was the miracle of being, from White Light and Will was he born in a realm of Darkness and Chaos. and From his first unknowable form did his Magnificence take shape. And haven given form he saw he was alone and only his might was there. and So streaching forth his body he created his plumage. and from it the Second Miracle. From his Wings like dew off of a leaf the first Lights of Stars were born. And with Breath and a simple command he gave the Lights of Stars their Unending fire. Then the Third miracle he gave shape to the star pools, swirling his new lights into positions less random, for indeed The Light of All was born to bring order to emptiness. and the Sai Rrte Iru rested. for long he did. until he awoke again many of his Lights had gone out and many more had been born. and from him the third miracle of creation took place. He took the Ashes of his Stars, the first beings and created smaller lights and from them A new form was made, Earth and stone and crystal and these forms made Worlds. But he saw these world were barren and he wept to the emptiness still. and from this The Ichor of Life, the greatest of All Fluids poured forth and soon the worlds Changed Sky was born, Oceans Flowed, and its form of Ice Storm and Water were born. Once more the great one rested. for a time these glittering spheres remained unchanging but beautiful. but as it began it slowly became undone as Worlds and Stars collide. in the Din of destruction he awoke again. And saw his creation in many tiny peices sprinkled through out all like sand in a bowl. He in his wisdom of sleep knew what must be done, and from him his last Miracle the miracle of Self. from his body he drew his own power, and using some of the dissipated forms he crafted The first of us, male in heart and mind just as he. This new form took shape, not of his form but of one of its own will and power. To him he gave the power to Steward Events so to Chaos could not reign over his creation. Again he drew from his own power and crafted another The second of Us made in opposition of the first A being of Female Mind and Heart. and She was given the power of Growth, so that root and tree and other forms of life could hold his creation from disintegration. and again thrice he did make another, and another Twins born of Duality. One of Energy and one of Void. Male minded but Female Hearted. their power was to change creation to be stronger. and with one last exertion he made the Last of the First. Male Hearted and female Minded. She was made with the very power of Light so to keep the Stars burning. He said too his emissaries his creations go forth now and keep Balance and make mine creation grow and change. but i give you three rules you must not break. If you are to destroy, create anew. If you are to Quarrel never to harm the other. and Last you are created of me, but thou must never create others of You. for this would fling my creation back into Chaos. with these words he departed to the Place Beyond the Stars. and Once more Sai Rrte Iru rested.
It has always felt to me that the gift of illuvatar was an illusion to a heaven type setting. Such as Men die and after their judgment in the halls of Mandos they moved on to a heaven type world. that would seem to fit into Tolkens thought process. Elves might live long lives, but men get to die and move on to live in the presence of Illuvatar.
It is not accurate, because Eru could never be destroyed or fall...but considering the way that all things played out, and if Gandalf's true nature is hidden, it might well be possible that Eru is more involved than anyone, including Gandalf knew.
It actually all makes sense with his Catholic up bringing. Eru-God, Valar- Archangels, Estari-Angels. Even Melkor/Morgoth in the roll of Lucifer. One could even relate Sauron to this roll also but he wasn’t a Valar. So Melkor.
@@LordTalax Yes you are correct and I thought about that. However The wizards were mentioned the most. So I thought maybe I should say Estari. Well done sir and thanks for the heads up.
As for Eru pushing Gollum into the lava, can somebody explain how it was Gollum's redemptive act as it was clearly him getting what he deserved for his betrayal. In the Book of Genosis, the fruit from the Forbidden Tree contained the wisdom of good AND evil plus there's the existence of Hell which God had to have created so that stuff is relatable to what was going on in Arda in Tolkien's works. Does anyone know what the equivalent of Hell was in Tolkien's works? One thing is for certain, Tolkien's faith REALLY DID influence his writing! Just like Eru's sporadic activity in Middle Earth, the last time that God, in a way, played an active role in Earth was at Fatima where the Blessed Mother warned of coming events!
"The Other Power then took over: Writer of the Story (by which I do not mean myself), 'that one ever-present Person who is never absent and never named'." -- Tolkien in Letter 192
Thank You very much for this great lore video! 👍 It is a amazing one, i.e. for me as a fellow Catholic to Tolkien, for Palm Sunday and Holy Week since Eru Ilúvatar reflects God of Christianity. 🌬️ ❤️🔥
*Melkor torture and terrorizing people of Arda for Millenia* Eru: i sleep Aule: hey i'm going to make a funny little people that can craft awesome thing. Eru: *Real shit*
Tolkien took Norse mythology and mixed it with his catholic faith. It’s beautiful and touching . Even those who do not believe see the beauty of God through this work
Here's one question regarding Eru and his designs: how many times has he done this before? How many universes and how many different worlds, how many Ea's and Ardas has he created, outlived, and learned from to build anew? For he seems to know an awful lot even before the beginning of time, and it sounds a lot like the voice of experience.
“Learning from” would seem to put a limit on Eru. Perhaps he does not gain experience because he is “experience” itself. The uppermost, above all. He does not need to create “practice” universes to learn from. Because knowledge is a part of his very character. Get what I mean? That’s just what I think.
I always perceived the death of Gollum as the work of the ring - Sméagol, bilbo and then Frodo all resisted the ring far more than the semisentience of the spirit in the ring would have conceived. Due to the urgency created by Saurons will the ring wanted to dominate Frodo - so Eru influenced Frodos wording for his curse and the ring chose to be bound and so to bind Frodo - from that moment Frodo could not have destroyed the ring - but the moment Sméagol attacked Frodo again - the power off the ring compelled him to be cast from a high place into a fiery pit. Your idea is very interesting - but i feel Eru would have more subtlety - and so act more indirectly.
Golum fell into the fire by the curse laid upon him by Frodo while he led the One Ring , "Should you ever lay had upon the ring again you yourself shall be cast into the Cracks of Doom". (near quote)
I think that Eru was more involved than most knew, such as being the one to enforce oaths or curses upon those foolish enough to utter them rashly, or to constantly turn them about again for either good or evil according to the nature of each. I will contend that those who know where to look will see that Eru Illuvitar is active in all things, just as Christians will see the providential hand of God in both evil and good using both to achieve His purposes and will.
The funny thing is that for almost 40 years I thought Iluvatar was a female deity. I only found out that Iluvatar is a male god last year from a RUclips video. I've only read Silmarillion in Finnish, and we have only one word for both he and she. The name Iluvatar looks to me very much female, as in Finnish the -tar ending signifies a female. Kuningas = king, but kuningatar = queen. Same for e.g. herttua = duke, but herttuatar = duchess.
So did melkor and sauron never have a chance because whatever hapened eru woud influence the small things to make sure they cant win as their victory wold have spelt doom for arda????
0:13 Solid ep as usual. The only thing I disliked was the painting of Eru that made him resemble Jared Leto (cringe). 😖😂😉 10:00 IMNSHO, Eru didnt push Gollum. Remember - the ENTIRE future history of Arda was first set forth in the Music of Eru and the Valar in the timeless void before the creation of Arda. Once created, all of the history embodied in the primordial music was made manifest in the all that transpired in Arda. The bottom line is that Gollum was not pushed by Eru ... he was essentially sung off the precipice way back before time began. In other words, it was pre-ordained to happen, not an interventive afterthought.
I've always had issues with the combining of the themes of both fate and free will. If something is fated, how can you have free will? If you have true free will, how can anything be fated?
One possibility is that free will resides merely in choice, but not necessarily in result. You make a choice, and the choice is a real one, but when you try to follow through with that choice, the actually effects of the choice don't turn out as intended. For example, Gollum fully intended to reclaim the Ring. He betrayed Frodo numerous times, attacked him, and bit his finger off. The result: he gets the Ring back. However, his prancing around in joy at reclaiming his Preccioussss led to him slipping and falling into the lava. His choice was real, but the consequence of that choice entirely unintentional.
QUESTION: I am writing a book, using M.E. as the background, during the 4th Age. A Remanat of the Elves remained behind to be teachers of Men and it turns into a Cult. QUESTION: May I use a few quotes from Eru, that the cult "twists" their interpretation of meaning for their own purposes? (Some people worship the Vala, and my elves worship Eru alone, but then late they themselves become for important.)
One thing that always sticks out to me is the implication of Tolkien writing "Eru, the One. Who in Arda is". Implying Eru has been known in other places besides Arda.
"Man don't mess with Eru Ilúvatar or Eru Ilúvatar would mess you up." - Someone during the Downfall of Numenor or Later *Probably* Man, over time we don't hear if Eru Ilúvatar intervened much, and then we realize that he did, in a Major way!!! Thanks, Mellon for *Instead of him Video Intervening* Eru Ilúvatar ECH, Until the History of Dol Guldur...Marion Baggins Out!!!
I don't think it was eru's power that caused gollum to fall into the fire, but the direct power of the ring. When frodo first takes gollum into his service he says that in the last end of need, I will put on the ring and claim it, and in doing so, if I where to command you to leap from a precipice or to cast yourself into the fire, while using the ring, you would do so. For the ring conquered you long ago. Sam was amazed at this speech of frodo's because wh3n he looked, he saw that his master had changed, and now seemed to be large and imposing, carrying a great strength of will. Also, frodo asked galadriel why he, being the bearer of the one, could not see the hearts and minds of the other ring bearers. She responds that you have not tried, nor should you. In order to use the power of the ring you will first need to have strength in yourself and a determination to rule others. I think frodo touched on the requirements to use the ring when he made his deal with gollum, and was able to use a tiny amount of the power of the ring. Also, on the slopes of mount doom, frodo again confronts gollum, clasping the ring under his shirt, and says "I will command you to throw yourself into the fire if you touch me again" in a place so near to its beginning and when it's power is greatest. Then gollum bites off his finger and falls into the fire, bringing the one ring with him to its own destruction. I think this is a much better fit for Tolkien's opinion on evil then simply having God step in to destroy it in the end. It is much more fitting to have evil be destroyed by its own power used against it
It begs the question, if everything serves Eru's designs does free will exist??????? Sounds like something Sauron would say to make The Numenoriens hate God lol
One concern is how do you reconcile Iluvatar with Bombadil? Bombadil's identifies himself as the first, plus his position in the cosmic map {yes there is a cosmic map embedded in LOTR} is the North Pole Swastika, known as the 'Supreme Creator God'. [this is suggested by the movement of paths in the Old Forest - a cosmic wheel.] As your images of Iluvatar suggest - Bombadil is also donned in 'Blue' {biblical meaning: Pavilion of God / Heaven} and 'yellow' boots {sun}. Bombadil is personified as the 'sun' throughout LOTR. At the end of the quest Gandalf indicates that he must go see Tom Bombadil when departing from the hobbits on a different road. Which brings one to another riddle? Why did Gandalf and Elrond, at the council, behave as if downplaying Bombadil's role? I am thinking that Bombadil is Iluvatar, but presented differently, a parental image to the Hobbits for the same reason 'God' presents himself to Dante {in Beatrice's Form}. cit. Purgatory. Translated by Dorothy Sayers. Per Dorothy Sayers {translator of Comedy and wife of Inkling member George Sayers}, an embodiment of Christianity 'makes use of the Parental Image'. (pg 36-37}. '
Pretty sure illuvatar basically swept all creatures residing in the great void where arda now stands and effectively got swept from their homes to be either primordially nameless ones and try to make the best of their circumstances or became vastly tragic like ungoliant and by extension shelob now bound by illuvatar's rules and morals.
just rewatched the opening to the Ungoliant video. "maybe from melkor's discord or maybe truly beyond creation". Melkor's discord would explain ungoliant, but probably not Bombadill, imo. But unexplained mysteries are fun too.
I only wish before I die, that the world of Tolkien's Middle Earth can be expanded and we get stories of other places all over the world and not just ones from the Smiliarions or places from the movies. places where the 2 blue wizards have traveled and such.
Does anyone think that when Gandalf whistled to the Butterfly on top of Orthanc that he was using the music to change the butterfly into an eagle? I used to think he told/asked the butterly to go find and Eagle, but I mean there probably wasn't that much time. It's possible, but I doubt it. I think Gandalf used the music to change the Butterfly. The look on Saruman's face when he flys away is like "oh yeah I forgot we could do that" lool
Gandalf didn’t talk to a moth in the books. Radagast knew Gandalf was going to be at Isengard so he sent and eagle and that’s why it showed up to rescue him
![Blox Fruits Dragon Rework Update [Full Stream]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EqDAp8udhm0/mqdefault.jpg)
This is why Gandalf's declaration to the Balrog of being an agent of the Secret Fire is still one of my favorite scenes in both the book and movie. To anyone that knew going in, that was pretty much him saying "God personally sent me to kick your butt!"
It’s interesting to note how both Gandalf and the Balrog were also present in making the music of the Ainur, of course in their original Ainu forms. The Balrog back then was among the other good Ainur trying to fight Melkor’s distortion.
Indeed, I also understood that quote as if he was saying that he was there by God’s will.
I assume that made the Balrog think, even if for a microsecond, about all he had done in his existence and how he had turned against God.
Which is why I believe that the Balrog was both angry at Gandalf for reminding of whom he once was, but also of God’s inevitable judgement on him. No wonder he tried to attack Gandalf and then sought to flee.
@Joe PenguinPtakk No, Gandalf would have wanted to keep the ring secret, especially to an enemy. In The Silmarilion, it is very clear that Secret Fire refers back to the creative power of Ilúvatar.
I think that due to Tolkien’s Catholic faith, the “Secret Fire” may be the Holy Spirit of God (Iluvatar), which gives true life to everything in Tolkien’s books. 🔥
it's so cool
Ar-Pharazon: What if Eru wasn't real?
Eru: What if Numenor wasn't real?
Eru is real hes God
Sauron: Everybody Worship Melkor!
@@wolfsbanealphas617 God is as imaginary as Bilbo Baggins.
@@LordTalax Nope.
🤣🤣
This is why I love it whenever Gandalf talks about something that was meant to happen. It's like he understands the music that he sang so long ago.
There's something otherwordly yet serene about Eru Illúvitar's presence.
Considering he is quite literally capital God I'd expect it
I believe that was Tolkien’s intention. He’s meant to resemble the God of Catholicism (for the most part). He’s totally alien and yet beautiful.
“Otherworldly yet serene” is a failed attempt at sophistication.
@@mrose4132and you're a failed attempt at contraception
"There are other forces at work, besides that of evil."
The one that started it all in the beginning. Makes me wonder if men even worshiped or knew his name into the 4th age.
But I'm glad that he didn't intervene directly most of the time. By doing so it would have violated the essence of free will, something he gave to all life.
But I can see him, at the end of all things, seated on high with all his children, smiling with kindness and love.
Aragorn definitely knew about Eru, as he was a given in Numenorean and Elvish philosophy that survived among the Elves and in Minas Tirith. The King of the Numenoreans is also the religious leader, but outside of having personal faith in Eru, seeing death as a gift, symbols like the White Tree and some customs and prayer-like sayings there's not much overt religion.
Except Melkor, the Balrogs, Sauron and Sauroman, Eru is like “you can go in the quiet corner and stay there”
@JAEDEN ABNER I am very annoyed with the fact you @ me 5 times
@@steffanyschwartz7801 I could really see that happening lol 😂
@@Nmax he also treats Sauroman special since he went full Suaroman of many colors
As the Istari Gandalf said, "There is more at work in this world than the will of evil..." and if actions are the seed of fate, then it is through the actions of the great champions of Arda that the will of Ilúvatar was worked upon the world.
Tolkien's Catholic upbringing are in every aspect of his world. I mean, they even have a Christmas holiday without any of the history of Jesus.
I’m not sure whether that is about his Catholicism or just pure convenience since he uses the Gregorian calendar for Middle Earth 🤔 But yeah interesting observation nonetheless 😄
a lot of old Nord holidays had either the Yule, Festival of Seasons on the winter solstice, or the Germanic Worship of Satun
it was Romanization that took Europe's Pagan Holidays combined them in Christmas.
@@peteynutt4104 very good point. I didn't think about that, thank you.
@@peteynutt4104 sorry sir but thats not likely true. Yule is medieval and didn't arise until the 6th century. Saturnalia was held Dec 17th and Christmas is held Dec 25th.
These theories of the origins of christmas stemming from pagan holidays are 20th century theories that are no longer held by the majority of scholars.
Christmas irl also started without a history of jesus.
"The harder you try to hurt me, the more you are helping me". Damn, that would be devastating to hear from from someone you didn't like, especially if it's true.
Should have saved this video for Easter Sunday. Awesome work as always sir! Thank you
There was a human temple dedicated to Eru in Numenor at mount Meneltarma.
This couldn’t have been better for Easter. Ty Men of the West. Truly he is the most epic character of all!
All these imaginary deities
@@Artofficial1986 much like your account
Agree!
@@angelalewis3645 yeah I don’t believe this guy exists
The story of the Ainulindale is one of the most beautiful tales in Simarillion.
"Beren and Luthien" is more beautiful, obviously. But yeah, it is quite a tale! And I love how it's all metaphysical, plodding and then ... BAM! WAR OF THE FUKKING WRATH! Like, Warhammer's got nothing on this! They're gonna have to try harder! WoW(...what an acronym, huh?) is like super high fantasy...but I'd love a book devoted to it(imo, Beren and Turin didn't really need it, later chapters of Silmarillion are super fast tracked, so Wrath, Gondolin, Earendil etc needed it far more).
@@goransekulic3671 More beautiful in YOUR opinion, you mean. But I do agree, at least, that Beren and Lúthien is one of the most beautiful tales in Tolkien's Legendarium. And regarding the War of Wrath, Eärendil, and Gondolin, etc., Perhaps Tolkien would have either gotten around to writing books dedicated to them or expand upon them in the Silmarillion had he had the time before he died.
@@indio4-215 Of course, but not even I can spam "imo" all the time. You understand. :)
Due to Tolkien’s Catholic faith, I do see the hierarchy of spiritual beings in Middle-Earth as follows:
Iluvatar : God
Valar : Arch-Angels
Maiar : Angels
Also I do see the “Secret Fire” of Iluvatar referenced in the creation stage of “The Silmarillion”, and which Gandalf references in the fight with the Balrog in “The Lord of the Rings” as being the Holy Spirit, which gives true life to everything. 🔥
Maiar are Ainur.
Good point, the term “Ainur” can refer to any of Iluvatar (God’s) created Angelic beings, either “Valar” (Arch-Angels) or “Maiar” (Angels). Thank you for pointing this out.
Arch-Angels in Tolkien’s works are also known as the “Valar”. Although the first 14 of these retained their good nature from Iluvatar (God), the 15th and unmentionable of the “Valar” rebelled and is the fallen Melkor / Morgoth. His chief servant Mairon / Sauron was a “Maiar” of the good “Valar” Aule, before he decided to follow Morgoth down the same “ruinous path down into the void” (The Silmarillion).
Like the overwhelming majority of the “Valar” (Arch-Angels) who retained their original good nature from “Iluvatar” (God), it is stated in “The Silmarillion” that the vast majority of the “Maiar” also kept their good nature and continued to dwell with “Iluvatar” in the “Timeless Halls” (Heaven).
However, although the “Valar” tended to dwell in “Valinor” (the Undying Lands), some of these good “Maiar” did decide to dwell in “Middle-Earth” (the world), among the most well-known and beloved was Melian, whose daughter Luthien together with Beren really kicked both Sauron and then Morgoth’s butts in the “Quest of the Silmaril” in the First Age. The other was Gandalf (Olorin), who came to successfully help the free-people’s of Middle-Earth against Sauron, and finally defeated him in the Third Age. 🧙♂️
Yep. Spot on.
Part of the Gift of Iluvatar to Men was that they made their OWN fates, and were not bound to Fate as set by Iluvatar which ruled all other beings in Arda. That was why they leave this world and go to the next.
" But to the Atani I will give a new gift.' Therefore he willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else; and of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest.
But Ilúvatar knew that Men, being set amid the turmoils of the powers of the world, would stray often, and would not use their gifts in harmony; and he said: ''These too in their time shall find that all that they do redounds at the end only to the glory of my work.' Yet the Elves believe that Men are often a grief to Manwë, who knows most of the mind of Ilúvatar; for it seems to the Elves that Men resemble Melkor most of all the Ainur, although he has ever feared and hated them, even those that served him." For the Elves die not till tile world dies, unless they are slain or waste in grief (and to both these seeming deaths they are subject); neither does age subdue their strength, unless one grow weary of ten thousand centuries; and dying they are gathered to the halls of Mandos in Valinor, whence they may in time return. But the sons of Men die indeed, and leave the world; wherefore they are called the Guests, or the Strangers. Death is their fate, the gift of Ilúvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy. But Melkor has cast his shadow upon it, and confounded it with darkness, and brought forth evil out of good, and fear out of hope. Yet of old the Valar declared to the Elves in Valinor that Men shall join in the Second Music of the Ainur; whereas Ilúvatar has not revealed what he purposes for the Elves after the World's end, and Melkor has not discovered it.
That men are "a grief to Manwe," or that we have something in common with Melkor, makes a lot of sense, when you think about it: Melkor must have been made to embody something that Eru needed in the universe, and so could not have existed for nothing. But with his Fall, Melkor couldn't personify this thing that Eru needed anymore, and so he may have decided to try again, very differently, with the creation of Men: mortal beings who would be embodiments of the same thing Melkor was meant to, but with less power, greater numbers, and shorter lives. Manwe could never help but be reminded of his "brother" in human beings, and there's no way that wouldn't have saddened him.
@@TheSaneHatter I have read theories, to which I agree, that Melkor once an angel of fire so to speak, was the embodiment of creativity and wonder, which is why he had a bit of the gifts the One gave to all the other Ainur, as he was to be the sub-creator in chief, innovating his way into a fuller, richer creation, beyond the more limited designs of his kindred. Instead he got into his mind he wanted to be an all-powerful creator and tried to have/be what he could not so he fell. His pride mirrors our own, a la original sin, though that part in the legendarium is not quite as developed nor as clear a parallel to the Bible, but it is there. I guess Men grief Manwë so much because in having this freedom from fate, the freedom to sub-create, and to waste it through corruption is to indeed mirror Melkor a little bit at a time, and to work towards his ends and not to the betterment of Arda, as was intended.
@@AugustusR I can't help but imagine Manwë found both Grief and joy in man grief because man reminded him of melkor in his darkest stages when he was evil but I also like to think before this he was a big brother to the others and manwë remembers those times just as man may mirrors the darkness he also saw man mirrored the light as well
was not expecting this vid but its awesome keep on rocking Yoystan
It’s actually been confirmed by Tolkien himself, in one of his letters, that it WAS Eru who pushed Gollum into the lava with the ring.
Yes, because humans, Men, and Elves could not defeat such Evil as was in the Ring created by Sauron. Frodo endures its temptation right up until the bitter end and then fails. His failure is all our failure when it comes to conquering Evil in the world, it can not be done by our hands. Only God can counter such power, and it is Eru, in an act of Divine Intervention that pushes Gollum over the edge and destroys the Ring. Frodo takes it as a failure but no being could have destroyed the Ring. Only Eru Iluvatar.
Well i heard another theory : Eru showed himself only 3 times , 1. when he drowned the Numenoran people , 2. When he helped Bilbo find the ring in Mirkwood 3. When the gandalf fell with the balrog and came to life again. I also read the Silmrailion and still cant find the sentence where Eru pushed Gollum into the lava.
Well yes and no i think. Gollum made the oath to help Frodo and an oath in Tolkiens work is magical and if you break it you get a punish. Gollum fell as a punish for breaking his oath. Eru himself punish the oathbreaker in general so yes he dropps him but not to destroy the ring, only to punish Gollum
This is my idear
Sorry for my bad english I am german
@@Rudolfinho it is in one of his letters.
His letters are not necessarily canon. Implied Canon is rather that Frodo and Gollum invoked the Ring's Power to bring about a conditional curse as part of its excellence in dominating lesser races, the hobbit being greater than that of whatever Gollum had become. The Ring, containing part of Sauron's spirit and thus also his arrogance, which also fits the overall themes weaved around Sauron, led to his downfall when the Ring itself overestimated its own excellence when its own curse took precedence over its own survival. It was made to dominate foremost, its own survival was only second to that goal: The Ring destroyed itself in its path to dominate a lesser being, similar to how Sauron himself lost the Third War and his military ambitions towards the Free Peoples because of his arrogance and underestimation of what he deemed to be lesser races.
The idea that Eru was quietly and secretly directing certain events and characters, like the Ring being lost in the river for so long, Bilbo being in the right place at the right time, passing it on to Frodo, Gandalf being involved, all of these things happened so specifically it almost certainly was the work of Eru. As Gandalf points out to Frodo in both the book and the film "Bilbo was MEANT to find the ring and therefore, YOU were MEANT to have it".
Awesome video. Love the parallels between Eru, Melkor and the creation to Christianity's: God, Lucifer, and the creation. Fascinating stuff.
I wouldn't say that when Eru confronts Melkor that Tolkien is saying that evil also comes from Eru. (The rebelion of Melkor from the will of Eru is the will of Eru, which makes no sense and is Eru contradicting himself). But that all authority and power that Melkor had to influence the music was given to him by Eru and that Eru knew exactly what he would do. Thus regradless of what Melkor chose to do Eru knowing it and giving him the authority to do would not affect the ultimate fate of Arda contrary to the will of Eru. Redardless of Eru wanting certain choses to be made or not he had the power to take the evil and turn into good and his ultimate will being made fulfilled.
Absolutely great video Yoystan! The story of Eru quite fascinating.
You really set yourself apart with your analysis of Tolkien, thankyou.
“...and He will come to judge the living and the dead and the world by fire” sure rings in there.
It’s a beautiful thought that J.R.R. Tolkien may have been blessed with Eru Ilúvatar’s knowledge, that he was perhaps deemed worthy of telling the lost times to the children who had long forgotten, and his son, Christopher, was perhaps worthy of having this knowledge passed unto him.
It all makes sense. The Silmarillion is the Elvish bible. Our bible is the bible concerning our relationship with God and Man. But because man is mortal, he chose tribe of Israel and then a savior Christ, who is Eru himself. Which if Tolkien considered Eru Iluvatar the catholic God, the Blessed Trinity, then it also reveals that in some other works, that some time in the third age, it was mentioned that Eru would someday enter Arda to save his children. Providing a way forward in this broken lonely world, which is, sadly until the end of time, Arda Marred, Morgoth's Ring. Does this all make sense?
Are you suggesting that Tolkien plagiarized the bible?? Lol jk
Love this theory
Eru isn't a trinity he is monistic. Also Tolkien referred to the divine on his universe mad the elves as being inspired from Norse legends too
@@ReidGarwin In a philosophical standpoint yes, you're right. Eru was influenced mainly through Norse myths and Eru Iluvatar in this way is not in three persons, as we read in the legendarium. His devotion to the Catholic Church however, inspired him to express his belief in God in his works, whether expressly Triune or not. If you read his letter in the Silmarillion he explains to someone who doesn't know Middle Earth, what the purpose of his work is for. It is not an allegory, neither is he a guide for us to believe or behave, he is more of a storyteller really, and I think the word he said was Applicability? And applicability opens up our view more wonderfully of our Middle Earth. His devotion to God and Europe sums up what is to be discovered in this wonderful world of Middle Earth.
@@ReidGarwin Despite Eru Iluvatar's philosophy, it is interesting that Tolkien would consider The Lord Of The Rings "a fundamentally religious and catholic work." And I guess in order to find out is to only read the books I suppose lol.
If I may ask, how is Eru a part of a trinity in Middle-Earth? I am only curious as I have read the story of Middle-Earth from a Jewish perspective as I am Jewish myself though I am interested in seeing things from other people's perspectives.
Awesome video Yoystan. This one is unique. This is THE ONE, THE All FATHER, the Master Creator of Arda and the whole universe, in fact of all existence. We finally get to Eru. The fact that he knew before hand of all the events that were to take in place in Arda before Arda even existed is purely mind blowing.
I think he took an active role during the "War of the Ring." Just consider how many events had to occur *just so* for the quest to be ultimately successful. That makes for great story telling because Tolkien was never clumsy about it, but it also makes one think, "That's just too many coincidences to occur at random in a universe with a known guiding force in it."
He only interfered twice in the quest, though.
The resurrection of Gandalf after his Death, which only a being higher than the the Valar could do.
And he caused Gollum to fall into the fires of Mount. Doom destroying the One Ring.
Depends on your own personal view of faith and free will. Is everyone chained to a set path or does that path subtly change as we make our choices which lead to multilple possible endings that all were accounted for. I personally think that in this story good would inevitably succeed no matter the choices made. If sauron regained the ring he likely would incite the valar to come save the day regardless but this was a last resort in case men could not save themselves of their own free will thus making most interventions useless. Frodo earned his by accomplishing everything he could and only falling to what even demigods fell to earning erus mercy
@@jazuqua I see most of the "chances, as we call it" as the work of the Valar, though they were acting according to Eru's strictures. The clouds parting so a final gleam of sun could give Frodo and Sam some encouragement at the crossroads, Sam calling on Varda when fighting Shelob, Manwe sending a wind to speed Aragorn's ships to the relief of Minas Tirith, the sun breaking through to help Merry and Eowyn destroy the Witch-King, you could make a substantial list.
I have long thought that one of the saddest moments was Saruman's spirit looking to the West before a wind dissipated him into nothingness.
Yoystan, I must say that, for a 23 year old, you seem very mature, gracious, and wise. Indeed, more so than most people of any age. You also display an impressive knowledge of philosophy. Nice voice too :-)
23 years??? Oh my god! What have I been doing with my life? Oh well, in other news...
Very good video Yoystan. Long time viewer, first time writer. As you hinted at towards the end, fate is indeed mysterious. Yes, we should believe that we will play the roles we were meant to play.
But that is frustrating not knowing what they are. Oh, and good job pronouncing all those names at the end 😀
I've been waiting for you to do this one! Thank you for this awesome video and for all your amazing in-depth videos! 👏👍
Great video as ever 👍🏻
'Time before time' Darn it Yoystan, I come to your channel not for Bionicle but Tolkien! Jk, this was a great video (as if you ever make any other kind my friend).
As to Eru, love how he isn't simply a one-note character but a complex character in his own right, one with flaws and virtues who can be debated into the ground. One who it can be debated how much of a role he played in the events of the Lord of the Rings and even the Silmarillion at various points.
I read C.S Lewis before Tolkien, and one of the things I liked about Lewis is that he's very blunt with how he shows his faith in his writings. I know it can be a turn off for some, but I thought it was a nice change of pace from so many writers dancing around those kinds of issues (also I'm one of those people who doesn't read subtly well, so it helped get the point across for me). When I first started getting into Tolkien, the only thing I knew going in was that he was responsible for Lewis's conversion, and as such I was expecting some similar kind of illustration of his faith in his writings, and while I clearly saw an acknowledgement of the ideas of honor, courage, and mercy in his work, it was still lacking that display of his faith that Lewis had in his writings. But when I first heard of the Silmarillion, and specifically of Eru Iluvatar, I literally thought, "Oh, THERE it is!" Needless to say, I'm glad Tolkien included him in his work, if only because it helped highlight his stance on matters of faith, creation, and the meaning of life.
Tolkien and Lewis had very different opinions on the use of allegory in fiction. That’s why Tolkien was much more subdued in his works but the basic themes are still there.
@@cm275 And both made very good works. Lewis's writings are what I would describe as deep and simple, while Tolkien is more deep and complex; he clearly put more effort into his world building than Lewis. Neither is bad or wrong, they just give different results.
@Sasquatch Farms If you are interested in a Narnia lore channel, check out Into The Wardrobe. It's only been around for a few months and is still growing/developing, but I think it does have potential to be the Men of the West of Narnia channels.
This was really well done! I love what you said! Well done Men of the West!
I have nothing to say except your still the best on all things Arda! Loved the video as always.
I want to thank you. For your kind and relaxing voice. And ofc good content. These few years and few last months have been hard. I am happy and glad, there is youtube content makers like you. Helps us go though hard times. Much love for you.
I'll be praying for you.
"Peace i leave you, my peace I give you."
Tolkien was not a Deist. He was Roman Catholic and therefore a Christian Theist. Roman Catholic theology is Augustinian and Augustine accepted both Fate/Predestination and Free Will.
There is no contradiction between Fate and Free Will. As Neils Bohr once said "The opposite of a fact is falsehood but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth."
Well done, one of your best. But too many commenters thinking they have answered questions that have eluded “professional” philosophers for millennia, with just one or two sentences.
Been waiting for this vid for a long time! Now u gotta make a character history on all the ainur! Keep up the good work!
I love the art you use in your videos!
Can't wait for the what-if video for what if Gandalf never fell at the Bridge of Khazad-dum and continued with the fellowship to Lothlorien and on forward?
Nice work dude thanks
Love the deep and philosophical videos, Yoystan. I would love to see more!
I think that Eru allows Freedom in his children as part of his grand design. That is why Evil can come to exist, and that is why Eru intervenes so rarely and indirectly. If his main role is really to enforce destiny and oaths, to make thinks be what they /ought to/ be, then he must take a step back to allow free choices as well. And that is also why the original world must exist with evil but also ultimately end, and be recreated with the input of the ones who have lived in it and actually experienced free choice (which would be impossible if Eru just dictated the best way of doing things).
In my Fantasy universe My creator deity is named Sai Rrte Iru, The Light of All.
or rather its the name his creations gave him.
as he just refers himself as just I.
never read the Simarillion at age 8 so didn't know Illuvitar also had Iru as his name.
As well he is a passive god, as i give rules to my gods rules that if broken the Being would cease to exist.
His case is one of exhaustion as i imagine it takes a lot of power both metphyiscal as well as.psychically to create a Universe.
As stated in the Halls of the One.
The first miracle was the miracle of being, from White Light and Will was he born in a realm of Darkness and Chaos.
and From his first unknowable form did his Magnificence take shape.
And haven given form he saw he was alone and only his might was there.
and So streaching forth his body he created his plumage.
and from it the Second Miracle.
From his Wings like dew off of a leaf the first Lights of Stars were born.
And with Breath and a simple command he gave the Lights of Stars their Unending fire.
Then the Third miracle he gave shape to the star pools, swirling his new lights into positions less random, for indeed The Light of All was born to bring order to emptiness.
and the Sai Rrte Iru rested.
for long he did.
until he awoke again many of his Lights had gone out and many more had been born.
and from him the third miracle of creation took place.
He took the Ashes of his Stars, the first beings and created smaller lights and from them A new form was made, Earth and stone and crystal and these forms made Worlds.
But he saw these world were barren and he wept to the emptiness still.
and from this The Ichor of Life, the greatest of All Fluids poured forth and soon the worlds Changed Sky was born, Oceans Flowed, and its form of Ice Storm and Water were born.
Once more the great one rested.
for a time these glittering spheres remained unchanging but beautiful.
but as it began it slowly became undone as Worlds and Stars collide.
in the Din of destruction he awoke again.
And saw his creation in many tiny peices sprinkled through out all like sand in a bowl.
He in his wisdom of sleep knew what must be done, and from him his last Miracle the miracle of Self.
from his body he drew his own power, and using some of the dissipated forms he crafted The first of us, male in heart and mind just as he.
This new form took shape, not of his form but of one of its own will and power.
To him he gave the power to Steward Events so to Chaos could not reign over his creation.
Again he drew from his own power and crafted another The second of Us made in opposition of the first A being of Female Mind and Heart.
and She was given the power of Growth, so that root and tree and other forms of life could hold his creation from disintegration.
and again thrice he did make another, and another Twins born of Duality. One of Energy and one of Void.
Male minded but Female Hearted.
their power was to change creation to be stronger.
and with one last exertion he made the Last of the First.
Male Hearted and female Minded.
She was made with the very power of Light so to keep the Stars burning.
He said too his emissaries his creations go forth now and keep Balance and make mine creation grow and change.
but i give you three rules you must not break.
If you are to destroy, create anew.
If you are to Quarrel never to harm the other.
and Last you are created of me, but thou must never create others of You.
for this would fling my creation back into Chaos.
with these words he departed to the Place Beyond the Stars.
and Once more Sai Rrte Iru rested.
Done with respect towards Tolkiens Christian influence and also informative, excellent video.
Since the day when you rose before me from the Recommendations I have loved you and that love shall never fail Yoystan.
Please, do more about Eru
It might be said that Tolkein did not create Eru. Eru created Tolkein.
It has always felt to me that the gift of illuvatar was an illusion to a heaven type setting. Such as Men die and after their judgment in the halls of Mandos they moved on to a heaven type world. that would seem to fit into Tolkens thought process. Elves might live long lives, but men get to die and move on to live in the presence of Illuvatar.
Makes me wonder where evil men or even orcs go after they have died?
@@seanmcelhiney3035 the void probably
@@dmeads5663 probably. Good men go to the timeless halls to be with Eru. Evil men join Melkor in the void.
@@seanmcelhiney3035 so how it can be better than elves fate? if they do not die elves do not risk Human 's hell😅
@@rhythmicmusicswap4173 trapped in the halls of Mandos until dagorlad
I still like the theory that Tom Bombadil is essentially the incarnation of Iluvatar in Middle-Earth.
It is not accurate, because Eru could never be destroyed or fall...but considering the way that all things played out, and if Gandalf's true nature is hidden, it might well be possible that Eru is more involved than anyone, including Gandalf knew.
Eru was first incarnate 2,000 years ago.
It actually all makes sense with his Catholic up bringing. Eru-God, Valar- Archangels, Estari-Angels. Even Melkor/Morgoth in the roll of Lucifer. One could even relate Sauron to this roll also but he wasn’t a Valar. So Melkor.
The Maiar were the lesser angels
@@LordTalax Yes you are correct and I thought about that. However The wizards were mentioned the most. So I thought maybe I should say Estari. Well done sir and thanks for the heads up.
@@LordTalax In the Lord of the rings. Forgot that part.
Sauron is in my mind considered a fallen angel
@@seanmcelhiney3035 Exactly.
As for Eru pushing Gollum into the lava, can somebody explain how it was Gollum's redemptive act as it was clearly him getting what he deserved for his betrayal. In the Book of Genosis, the fruit from the Forbidden Tree contained the wisdom of good AND evil plus there's the existence of Hell which God had to have created so that stuff is relatable to what was going on in Arda in Tolkien's works. Does anyone know what the equivalent of Hell was in Tolkien's works? One thing is for certain, Tolkien's faith REALLY DID influence his writing! Just like Eru's sporadic activity in Middle Earth, the last time that God, in a way, played an active role in Earth was at Fatima where the Blessed Mother warned of coming events!
Really interesting. Thanks very much.
The narrator has a voice and insight that sits in my mind and tell me about middle earth.
"The Other Power then took over: Writer of the Story (by which I do not mean myself), 'that one ever-present Person who is never absent and never named'." -- Tolkien in Letter 192
Thank You very much for this great lore video! 👍 It is a amazing one, i.e. for me as a fellow Catholic to Tolkien, for Palm Sunday and Holy Week since Eru Ilúvatar reflects God of Christianity. 🌬️ ❤️🔥
Same here! Very Catholic, indeed!
Very nice to hear you speak of the similarity to the Elohim 01:38. You got a "like" and a "sub" for that alone.
Eru is so cool
Thank you for this video. It was done excellently.
*Melkor torture and terrorizing people of Arda for Millenia*
Eru: i sleep
Aule: hey i'm going to make a funny little people that can craft awesome thing.
Eru: *Real shit*
Love these videos!
8:40 - What is the symbolism / reason for raising a sword up but grabbing onto the blade, not the handle?
another warm video in such cold times, may your house find great joy
Whoa, haven't seen any Tolkien RUclipsrs tackle this one yet. Kudos 👍
Tolkien took Norse mythology and mixed it with his catholic faith. It’s beautiful and touching . Even those who do not believe see the beauty of God through this work
I will be glad when a god comes along that can actually control his own fucking creation for a change.
Amazing video, thank you!
Here's one question regarding Eru and his designs: how many times has he done this before? How many universes and how many different worlds, how many Ea's and Ardas has he created, outlived, and learned from to build anew? For he seems to know an awful lot even before the beginning of time, and it sounds a lot like the voice of experience.
Who said he's created other universes?
@@florbfnarb7099 Who says he HASN’T? 😎
“Learning from” would seem to put a limit on Eru.
Perhaps he does not gain experience because he is “experience” itself.
The uppermost, above all.
He does not need to create “practice” universes to learn from.
Because knowledge is a part of his very character.
Get what I mean?
That’s just what I think.
Seeing on how he's God himself well he just knew
I always perceived the death of Gollum as the work of the ring - Sméagol, bilbo and then Frodo all resisted the ring far more than the semisentience of the spirit in the ring would have conceived. Due to the urgency created by Saurons will the ring wanted to dominate Frodo - so Eru influenced Frodos wording for his curse and the ring chose to be bound and so to bind Frodo - from that moment Frodo could not have destroyed the ring - but the moment Sméagol attacked Frodo again - the power off the ring compelled him to be cast from a high place into a fiery pit. Your idea is very interesting - but i feel Eru would have more subtlety - and so act more indirectly.
Golum fell into the fire by the curse laid upon him by Frodo while he led the One Ring , "Should you ever lay had upon the ring again you yourself shall be cast into the Cracks of Doom". (near quote)
I think that Eru was more involved than most knew, such as being the one to enforce oaths or curses upon those foolish enough to utter them rashly, or to constantly turn them about again for either good or evil according to the nature of each.
I will contend that those who know where to look will see that Eru Illuvitar is active in all things, just as Christians will see the providential hand of God in both evil and good using both to achieve His purposes and will.
you know what's interesting. Eru interfered when Morgoth interfered with Arda. But he didn't interfere when Sauron did.
Thanks guys.
Out of song, comes a universe of possibility.
the Gift of Men is that they get to move on after death to dwell with Eru instead of being bound to Middle Earth
Currently, I’m aware of 2 Eru interventions against Sauron.
Does anyone know of such interventions against Morgoth?
I like his unique name that I often utter it with a smile 🙂
The funny thing is that for almost 40 years I thought Iluvatar was a female deity. I only found out that Iluvatar is a male god last year from a RUclips video. I've only read Silmarillion in Finnish, and we have only one word for both he and she. The name Iluvatar looks to me very much female, as in Finnish the -tar ending signifies a female. Kuningas = king, but kuningatar = queen. Same for e.g. herttua = duke, but herttuatar = duchess.
He's neither male nor female, he created those concepts
Why would the Omnipotent Eternal God have a gender lmao
Happy Palm Sunday.
RIDE ON, RIDE ON IN MAJESTY
Eru.
The hands off but vital mvp of middle earth.
Only in the most critical moments
So did melkor and sauron never have a chance because whatever hapened eru woud influence the small things to make sure they cant win as their victory wold have spelt doom for arda????
Clockmaker theory of religious view is what this reminds me of. It's a powerful belief.
0:13 Solid ep as usual. The only thing I disliked was the painting of Eru that made him resemble Jared Leto (cringe). 😖😂😉
10:00 IMNSHO, Eru didnt push Gollum. Remember - the ENTIRE future history of Arda was first set forth in the Music of Eru and the Valar in the timeless void before the creation of Arda. Once created, all of the history embodied in the primordial music was made manifest in the all that transpired in Arda. The bottom line is that Gollum was not pushed by Eru ... he was essentially sung off the precipice way back before time began.
In other words, it was pre-ordained to happen, not an interventive afterthought.
Post expanded.
So he gave men the gift of death?
Wow, gee thanks dad best gift ever
I've always had issues with the combining of the themes of both fate and free will. If something is fated, how can you have free will? If you have true free will, how can anything be fated?
One possibility is that free will resides merely in choice, but not necessarily in result. You make a choice, and the choice is a real one, but when you try to follow through with that choice, the actually effects of the choice don't turn out as intended. For example, Gollum fully intended to reclaim the Ring. He betrayed Frodo numerous times, attacked him, and bit his finger off. The result: he gets the Ring back. However, his prancing around in joy at reclaiming his Preccioussss led to him slipping and falling into the lava. His choice was real, but the consequence of that choice entirely unintentional.
QUESTION: I am writing a book, using M.E. as the background, during the 4th Age. A Remanat of the Elves remained behind to be teachers of Men and it turns into a Cult. QUESTION: May I use a few quotes from Eru, that the cult "twists" their interpretation of meaning for their own purposes? (Some people worship the Vala, and my elves worship Eru alone, but then late they themselves become for important.)
One thing that always sticks out to me is the implication of Tolkien writing "Eru, the One. Who in Arda is". Implying Eru has been known in other places besides Arda.
"Man don't mess with Eru Ilúvatar or Eru Ilúvatar would mess you up." - Someone during the Downfall of Numenor or Later *Probably*
Man, over time we don't hear if Eru Ilúvatar intervened much, and then we realize that he did, in a Major way!!!
Thanks, Mellon for *Instead of him Video Intervening* Eru Ilúvatar ECH, Until the History of Dol Guldur...Marion Baggins Out!!!
I don't think it was eru's power that caused gollum to fall into the fire, but the direct power of the ring. When frodo first takes gollum into his service he says that in the last end of need, I will put on the ring and claim it, and in doing so, if I where to command you to leap from a precipice or to cast yourself into the fire, while using the ring, you would do so. For the ring conquered you long ago. Sam was amazed at this speech of frodo's because wh3n he looked, he saw that his master had changed, and now seemed to be large and imposing, carrying a great strength of will. Also, frodo asked galadriel why he, being the bearer of the one, could not see the hearts and minds of the other ring bearers. She responds that you have not tried, nor should you. In order to use the power of the ring you will first need to have strength in yourself and a determination to rule others. I think frodo touched on the requirements to use the ring when he made his deal with gollum, and was able to use a tiny amount of the power of the ring. Also, on the slopes of mount doom, frodo again confronts gollum, clasping the ring under his shirt, and says "I will command you to throw yourself into the fire if you touch me again" in a place so near to its beginning and when it's power is greatest. Then gollum bites off his finger and falls into the fire, bringing the one ring with him to its own destruction.
I think this is a much better fit for Tolkien's opinion on evil then simply having God step in to destroy it in the end. It is much more fitting to have evil be destroyed by its own power used against it
Does that mean eru himself was partly evil being he created the ainur from himself and melkor being a strong part of that
It begs the question, if everything serves Eru's designs does free will exist??????? Sounds like something Sauron would say to make The Numenoriens hate God lol
One concern is how do you reconcile Iluvatar with Bombadil? Bombadil's identifies himself as the first, plus his position in the cosmic map {yes there is a cosmic map embedded in LOTR} is the North Pole Swastika, known as the 'Supreme Creator God'. [this is suggested by the movement of paths in the Old Forest - a cosmic wheel.] As your images of Iluvatar suggest - Bombadil is also donned in 'Blue' {biblical meaning: Pavilion of God / Heaven} and 'yellow' boots {sun}. Bombadil is personified as the 'sun' throughout LOTR. At the end of the quest Gandalf indicates that he must go see Tom Bombadil when departing from the hobbits on a different road. Which brings one to another riddle? Why did Gandalf and Elrond, at the council, behave as if downplaying Bombadil's role?
I am thinking that Bombadil is Iluvatar, but presented differently, a parental image to the Hobbits for the same reason 'God' presents himself to Dante {in Beatrice's Form}. cit. Purgatory. Translated by Dorothy Sayers. Per Dorothy Sayers {translator of Comedy and wife of Inkling member George Sayers}, an embodiment of Christianity 'makes use of the Parental Image'. (pg 36-37}.
'
Pretty sure illuvatar basically swept all creatures residing in the great void where arda now stands and effectively got swept from their homes to be either primordially nameless ones and try to make the best of their circumstances or became vastly tragic like ungoliant and by extension shelob now bound by illuvatar's rules and morals.
Great video. In Quenya its pronounced as "air-oo" though
I read the title as Eric Iluvatar
As time went on, the elves also played less active roles, being considered supernatural or mythical by many men.
Was it brass balls or possession that caused the king's men to rebel against the embodiment of fate?
I believe you've talked about how ungoliant and bombadill are so mysterious. are they also part of eru's plans? or are they beyond explanation?
just rewatched the opening to the Ungoliant video. "maybe from melkor's discord or maybe truly beyond creation". Melkor's discord would explain ungoliant, but probably not Bombadill, imo. But unexplained mysteries are fun too.
There is nothing outside Eru plans
@@coreyholt8522Bombadil is probably a maair
Never been here this early
I only wish before I die, that the world of Tolkien's Middle Earth can be expanded and we get stories of other places all over the world and not just ones from the Smiliarions or places from the movies.
places where the 2 blue wizards have traveled and such.
Does anyone think that when Gandalf whistled to the Butterfly on top of Orthanc that he was using the music to change the butterfly into an eagle? I used to think he told/asked the butterly to go find and Eagle, but I mean there probably wasn't that much time. It's possible, but I doubt it. I think Gandalf used the music to change the Butterfly. The look on Saruman's face when he flys away is like "oh yeah I forgot we could do that" lool
Gandalf didn’t talk to a moth in the books. Radagast knew Gandalf was going to be at Isengard so he sent and eagle and that’s why it showed up to rescue him
@@superslayerguy I still like my version of gandalf tapping into the ancient source of creation to be like ahaha peace!!
@@TremoloSoul that’s what it’s all about mate, Tolkien just wanted all of us to have fun with his story and enjoy it :)