Breaking the Chains of Suffering -- Fetters 4 & 5 with Kevin Schanilec
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- Опубликовано: 17 янв 2023
- Fetters 4 and 5
Kevin's Website: www.simplytheseen.com/
Check the Playlists on my main channel page to find the videos on the remaining fetters. 
Развлечения
*** Please Note*** We will release the next video in a week or less. For now, feel free to leave a response under this comment if you have clarifying questions. Specifically if you have a reaction trigger or situation that you are not sure how to formulate in the way we are describing here. At the beginning of the next interview we will spend a bit of time going over some points of clarity. I may not be able to use everyone's example but I will do my best and try to get the overall approach in reference to the types of situations people are describing and how to formulate them into this model. :)
My suffering mostly stems of anxiety. Maybe you can clarify how to see through the fetter with the following. I start thinking about work and anxiety arise in me because my manager is very micromanaging and because of that I feel anxious, while those thoughts arises and I'm in the gap with the uncomfortable sensations, what do I do next? Which part of it is the reaction? All that happens is thoughts arising and uncomfortable sensations arising due to those thoughts.
@@shinrinyokumusic1808 I might suggest, choose one specific event or exchange with the person that is a triggering memory and is representative of what you are talking about. Then formulate the statement as we described in the video. Example might be, “my boss did NOT accept my work in the way I did it.” Obviously it has to be customized to your situation,
@@shinrinyokumusic1808 , rather than “I am anxious” use, This is anxiety; or anxiety arising. Also, we practice Fire Drills in the absence of fire. Practice anxiety resolution when not feeling anxious.
My main trigger is anxiety that results from my stutter. So anytime I know I will have to speak in the future, I experience fear, and I want to run away from the situation and find an excuse so I won’t have to speak. One basic example is if I know I will have to speak up in a meeting at work, this anxiety and fear arises. There is probably an element of shame and fear of being judged here as well. Not sure how to formulate this.
Thank you, Angelo... "The work will continue"
This is awesome. Following your discussion around finding the 'gap', I was tracking a reactive pattern of my own, and all of a sudden I could see the gap and burst out laughing. I don't need to react! This is hilarious and beautiful. Thank you both.
29:51 The focus on what is actually happening instead what we want to happen has been big for me.
A friend at retreat who works in mental health taught me about this concept. Instead of using self talk to speak false affirmations, just recognize what is there already. Instead of saying “I’m strong and brave” inauthentically, say “I’m weak and cowardly” truthfully.
Being truthful let’s it be recognized and untied internally.
It’s really been one of the best techniques I’ve ever used.
That makes sense but in my case, most of my negative self-talk stems from years of traumatic abuse experienced in the 1st half of my life (20 or so years 😉) so I have the problem of constantly dwelling in & affirming the shame, the guilt & general inner turmoil which I believed to be true for so long.
@@IllumiNauti Same. Early childhood trauma left me with deep, chronic, existential depression, anxiety, suicidal ideation, learned helplessness, sexual fixations, fixation on idealized romance, etc. Which led to relationships in my adulthood that only served to reaffirm alllll of that crap. I still think it's better to at least try to accept whatever state you're in at any moment as opposed to immediately resisting that state and trying to robotically affirm the opposite over it. If you can take a moment to simply let whatever sensations that are there just be there, even if they feel absolutely awful, understand that the sensations aren't actually _hurting_ you - they just feel icky, shitty, and gross...then, after taking it in, move to affirming the opposite. It's a little easier.
I don't know. Lately, I've been into manifestation as a way to reorganize my thought patterns. Hence the affirming. I mean if the "self" can't be eliminated by any means, I might as well try to change it into something I can tolerate. It's _extremely_ challenging but I'm at a place in my life where I don't know what else to do. Therapy, multiple medications, and TMS therapy have done virtually nothing. Breathwork and Meditation seem to be helpful but I have a hard time staying consistent. And there's no finality to it. If I do the breathwork and meditation every day for a few months, I see a lot of improvement in my day to day levels of depression and anxiety. But if I fall off the wagon, I just slowly go back to my old shit. There's no lasting change.
Why I just told you all this...the world may never know 😅
I'm an AA sponsor, currently working with another long-term sober member. I'm going to listen to this with her, and incorporate it into our inventory work, steps 4-7.
Awesome.
For heavy stuff that happen in the past, forgivness is a tool nobody can't ignore. Not because you find excuse to your abuser, but because you love yourself enough to not carry that weight anymore.
This is such valuable work and clearly explained by Kevin. What a different world we would live in if everyone did this kind of work. 😊
What I see a lot of, is when people blame things instead of looking at how they may be reacting. For example people will blame their car for not working, instead of realising the car is just a car. The reaction to the car not working is all inside.
"Belief is something about you that makes reaction necessary" Thank you both so very much! Angelo all your interviews are gold! 🌼Deep gratitude.
This is super helpful. I appreciate you went into the sticky emotional area of childhood traumas and how to frame the statements to be direct and simple. I’m looking forward to the next discussion! Thank you!
This conversation was so helpfull! Read thru Kevins description of the fetters and what clicked was... Not knowing is.. what's happening!! thanks guys!💝
15 minutes in and have an appointment but solidly hooked. I"ve always had an aversion to Buddhist teachings due to the arcane language and to me seeming intellectualness of it all. This is so clear, down to earth, understandable. Thank you both!
Angelo thank you so much for finding and sharing these people ❤
Welcome
Man this is the simplest explanation of how to deal with reactivity! So so good!
Angelo these are cheat codes for life! Your whole channel is just that, cheat codes! Big thank you 🙏
Welcome.
Very practical and direct advice ❤ Thank you both ❤
Yaaayy!! It functions beautifully!!! 😇💓💖Thank you so much!! I'm so grateful!! Big hug and love🤗❤️♥️🙏
this was awesome
thank you both so much.
Looking forward to the other two conversations.
🙏❤️
Wonderful interview! Thank you, Angelo and Kevin. I can certainly relate to the "tears-in-my-eyes" moments that occur.The sooner that more beings become aware of this type of information about our true Self, the better. 🙏🏻
What a treat. Thank you both. I wish he had touched onto exploring methods to breaking the first fetter from this model a bit more. Still extremely helpful. Cheers
Much of my channel addresses this as does the book, so we decided to begin after awakening. Specifically the playlist awakening approaches if you are interested.
Thank you Angelo and Brian! It opened up a lot of inquiry for me with many questions that haven’t formed into askable questions. Looking forward to the next video.
So great. I've found myself in these waters lately so this was timed perfectly, you guys are awesome. Super helpful how the pointers are put in the context of everyday practical life, not some idealized retreat setting.
Watching this for the 5th time in the last few months and im sure gonna repeat in the future. Amazing how finely tuned they both are in the conversation. Same energies and resonance. Lots of Love and gratitude sirs.
So beautifully said. These challenges that arise once seeing the Truth are the real sweethearts. They allow the greater seeing behind that genius trickster. Much love and gratitude for this sharing. ❤
Just started to learn about working with fetters, and this is very useful and clarifying... loved the garbage can example, and I definitely can relate a lot! ( funny that my neighbors are currently doing construction work, and it's been pretty noisy) so I'm just taking the situation as an exercise to work on my reactivity 😉 .I could also relate to the emotional "scars" during childhood about the things that didn't happen or didn't go the way I expected... great material to work on! Thanks to you both! 🙏❤️
I’ve been working with this exercise for a couple of days now and noticing a shift. Really nice. Thank you! Loved this one!
,This has been so helpful. Thank You both so much. ❤️
I've never heard of this method but I see much that I recognise from my own experience. I just haven't heard it articulated and described as a methodology before. Wonderful. Diving in. Thank you both.
Thank you, this kind of model is a very helpful way to see how this work progresses.
I didn't fully understand a lot of the terms you use before, but now I can correlate awakening/kensho with fetter 1, equanimity with fetters 4/5, and non-duality with fetters 6/7.
Looking forward to the next discussions 🙏
Wow. This was perfectly timed as usual. Thank you.
You're so welcome!
Angelo your recent interviews are so incredibly informative and useful 💜I love the work that Brian and Christiane have done with the ten fetters and this simple and direct discussion of it illuminates it’s simplicity and usefulness. Working with fetter 4 & 5 as described here has been transformative for weakening and breaking reactivity.
Do you have a link to the work of Brian?
This was so great. Feels like something clicked. 🙏🏾
Grateful to you both for sharing this technique.👣
Privilege to hear you two - tackling life heart-on.
Especially loved hearing Kevin (not) loosing it at his work place - just letting loose with love.
So so so so soooo useful, helpful and illuminating... Thankyou Angelo and Kevin, looking forward to more! 🙏🏽💚😌
More to come!
Great content as always. Thank you so much for doing these. Looking for the trigger that leads to a conditioned response is an interesting practice. In my experience this would also always include so kind of believe in a separate self, even if that assumption has already seen through at some point. It tends to reasert itself and the realizations gets clouded over in these challenging moments.
My practice has therefore been, whenever I can catch myself getting contacted in any way, just to realize that the mind has been cought again in the false narrative with a separate self at the center, no matter what it's specially saying. In general this will lead to a relaxation of of the contraction and alter the conditioned response.
Thanks for taking the time to point to this
Thank you so very much. I've tried working with Kevin's website and have Christiane Michelburgers book where she shares working through the Fetters with Kevin and I hadn't understood 'the gap'. Feel I've got it now. Blessings and Gratitude 🎉🙏
Good to hear
Gratitude.
My friend recommended i check this out. Wow! Listening in helps me understand a little more what happened on retreat a few years ago. Retrospectively i can see fetters 1-3 were significantly weaked or seen thru and starting 4&5 were much weakened. I'm interested in working with someone who has experience breaking 4&5. This week ive worked on 4 & 5 fetters and after pointing to something that would regularly start my heart pounding, after one session the gap has become a lot less uncomfortable, and today starting to be almost boring. What a releif. It sure is cool to be alive and accessing these tools in 2023!
Thank you 🙏. This was helpful.
Great talk, thank you!
I haven’t watched this interview but today I was triggered while trying to help my kid with math homework. They didn’t teach us Common Core in school and I don’t feel like re-learning math! 😤😝
thank u thank u thank u❤️
Amazing, never heard of this fetters thing before. Thanks.
hey this conversation was really great !! thanks a lot guys.
Our pleasure!
It's interesting that I just subscibed to a channel on RUclips out of the UK and she is teaching the Fetters. I believe her channel is Non-Duality-Awakening Curriculum. It will be great to get a masculine perspective with your guest!
This was one of the best videos I’ve ever seen ❤
This series is so good
fantastic
VERY helpful, thank you! Will move on to the next videos to hear other examples. I'm still a little confused about the language of the FACT as it was used a couple of different ways here, but I sense it is important. i.e. They leave the trash out until Thursday and They don't bring the trash in on Tuesday by 6pm.
I feel like I’m here. Emotions turned way down. Choosing to not react and seeing the pain or issue behind why they said what they said or did what they did.
Simply Always Awake & Simply The Seen
Thanks for this , really good video.
Phenomenal - hearing something new and always perfectly timed - please more! It does raise a question about this ingrained natural ability to find a suitable compassionate reason for anothers "inappropriate" action/reaction/behavior....like finding a suitable reason for the bin not being brought back and thus avoiding the reactive part, instead of being in the present moment of what is. Now that I question it, it feels like the constant use of excuses (now a habit), as experience has shown that reactiveness is not necessary/required, or desired. Is this actually avoiding THE GAP?
Excellent.
In this model the breaking of the first fetter is the end of the belief of Me, an agent, an entity. It is not the initial awakening that most people think about like I AM or discovering our Presence. I wish we would be more precise on how to see through it with his method.
In my experience initial awakening is what he refers to as breaking the first fetter. I’ve worked with many people having gone through it and that’s pretty clear to me. Specific to the I am Sense and realization of it, Kevin equates that to the eighth fetter. When the only thing left is the I Am sense (in the way say Nisargadatta refers to it) that is the realization of clear formless non-dual. When that sense is seen through that is the full realization of No-Self. This will become clear as we go through the fetters.
@@SimplyAlwaysAwake I wonder if this method doesnt take the long path... for example, Nisargadatta only had to put attention on the Iam sense for 3 years and that was it... I wonder if one really has to go through the first fetter and second etc... or one can just bypass all that and go to the iam sense. anyway I understand that this is a model and it doesnt have to go the same for everyone. I know people who have seen through the first fetter and that was it. no more suffering and all day peace. so I guess it can depend on someone's luck as well
@@shinrinyokumusic1808 it definitely plays out in different wars fir different people. Not sure how much individual choice we have about that tho lol
The whole process seems to be a falling away of 10 heavy baggages
Great video. I enjoyed Kevin's perspective. I think bringing Kevin back to speak for another episode and talk more about The Fetter Model might helpful.
Will do!
Angelo, thanks for referring me to this video during yesterday's "Double Barrel" with Kogen. I realize that in prior work I have called this "The Adult Temper Tantrum" (e.g. I didn't get what I wanted so I react). It's also interesting to note that in the gap between uncomfortable feelings and reactivity, we expect to find a ''me' that 'must react' and when I have worked with this, there is also no 'me' in the gap. There are strongly uncomfortable feelings of not getting what I want or of getting what I don't want, and then this little gap, and then the typical ways I've used to get away from the strong uncomfortable feelings by using a preset 'tantrum-like' reaction. Yet, all this said, there has been a weakening of this reactivity but, it's not gone yet, so more work to do.... Cheers, Jon
So practical, thank you! 🙏
You're so welcome!
What’s always confused me is I had a massive insight into no self a few years ago on retreat that really changed my self perception. In the experience I forgot my name and all life the narrative memories but maintained functional memory (I knew I was in a hall on retreat, I worried how I would function with no identity, I still had an observer / object duality…). For the next few weeks I felt a huge weight had been dropped and I felt a lot of bliss and was amazed that I had believed in a self my whole life. I saw so clearly there are only ongoing processes not entities. My sense of identity felt like it had been shattered onto a hundred pieces.
And if you where to ask me if I have believed in any of the first three Fettas since - I would say no. I don’t doubt Buddha, I don’t think rituals directly lead to awakening (excluding rituals like taking the precepts).
Yet I am quite sure I have never experienced Nibbana having spoken to a number of fellow mediators and a monk whom I am quite sure have experienced it - they said all 6 sense doors (including mind, perception and conciousness) drop away and you experience something that can’t be put into words.
Which makes me wonder if the Fetta model is a good metric?
I don't know if you asked him this already, but a good question would be is if one can break the reaction fetter even if seeing through the self illusion hasn't fallen away
Tnx a lot.
Really great conversation- I think I have met Kevin before on a retreat many years ago probably 20+ - the whole discussion on the gap and not reacting to sensation to you may not prefer.
baskets... he has mad basket game
One of the questions that comes to mind during the breakthrough described at 15:00 is whether the individual needs to be of a certain age and have gone through a certain number of life experiences before the necessary maturity is there for this to happen. One sometimes hopes to have had this earlier but unless it did happen, "early" seems not to be in the cards.
No, it's not really age related or maturity tho not everyone agrees with me, I've definitely seen counterexamples. reality can do whatever TF it wants to I've found.
Its important to make sure you don't neglect calm abiding as a meditative practice. Too much insight without stability can be disastrous.
Really great interview and content. Angelo, could you please ask if he has more specific how-to instructions on what to ask and how to approach a self inquiry session for the first fetter? Still unclear from his website on the type of question to ask/method. Thank you. Really appreciate your effort with your channel!!!
This series is really geared toward insights beyond initial awakening. There are many approaches for first awakening described in my book as well as the awakening approaches playlist.
1- Fetter 4: desire
2- Fetter 5: ill-will
As usual, great interview. Would u recommend work on this only after awakening?
Generally yes
Is it important to look for the reason to react while in the gap, or is just resting in the gap and holding off the urge to react enough?
both are important, the first step is remaining in the gap, that may be enough but it may not.
If unpleasant situations still arise in response to something happening that you don't WANT to happen, or to something not happening that you WANT to happen, is it really correct to say that the fetters of desire and ill-will are broken? The pattern of reactivity may be broken and that's amazing, of course, but it sounds like there's still a wanting behind it all. It's the wanting itself that could be labelled desire and ill-will.
running into a bit of confusion lately about the definition of awakening. Rupert Spira defines it very simply as having the pure experience of I am, being awareness itself, then being able to deepen that awakening, adyashanti seems to define a head awakening then a heart awakening, and from what I hear sometimes on your channel is awakening is not just a simple shift in identity to the pure experience of I am (which is what happened to me) but also this experience of "deep interconnectedness" and "seeing the world as sublime and extremely intimate" and other will say you just become everything. I am so confused, there are so many definitions and supposed experiences of what the initial shift is - I keep convincing myself that even though my identity has shifted to being the pure sense if I am prior to an idea or concept about myself, I am that.......even though I have this, I am being convinced I have not experienced an awakening because I don't have some grand experience of interconnectedness and unity will all things, or nonduality....... really confused. getting pretty discouraged with all these definitions
You're describing what I call awakening. Adyshanti does define it as a shift in identity as I do. Not sure about Spira. Interconnectedness, non-duality etc are deeper insights. Sometimes they are tasted with initial shift but are not stabilized. The aren't always however.
@@SimplyAlwaysAwake Thanks for answering Angelo! It's extremely strange because I had this shift in identity when I was 6 years old, I always discarded it as not awakening because of how utterly simple and close it was. I am, just pure aliveness, I am the present moment, just this, right here pure and raw aliveness. I am, and that's it
I will move onto your equanimity series next to hopefully deepen. Thank you for your time!
@@Davidmcdonald1 I’ve talked with several people about the idea of having a group for those who have had that as a child. I know several. Maybe I’ll make a vid then have a sign up form so I can put a group together.
@@SimplyAlwaysAwake This is all new to me, I didn't know there were others. God I have so many questions now. Is this whole process different for people who had this shift as a kid?
As a kid I thought everyone had this pure sense of just raw I am ness as their fundamental identity....... I will look out for your video on that, and I will absolutely love to be an a group with other people who have had a similar experience.
I won't take more of your time, there are many people commenting, but I look forward to your video!
Now, this is an interview I am dying to listen to (gonna do it right now!) Thank you, Angelo... for this 🙏❤️
**edit*** Brilliant. So simple. So clear. So practical. I'm thrilled this will continue in parts.
"The gift that keeps on giving!!!" 😂🤣😂🤣 Amen! Especially my Addams Family. Cara mia! Reminds me of the immortal lines penned by the wordsmith, Stephen Patrick Morrissey:
"... and the pain was enough to make a shy, bald buddhist reflect... and plan a mass murder... "
😜
I loved this interview. I really got so much from it. Great breakdown of the essential difference between responsivity vs. reactivity... the latter is mired in suffering believing that what is currently happening shouldn't be. Push/pull... desire for a preferred outcome. Awesome interview, Angelo. 👍🙏Hard to find interviews with Kevin online. ✨✨✨
Welcome!
Hi Nat just wondering why you commented to me then deleted it so i couldn't reply. I don't understand the etiquette of commenting.
This is a good, Be safe.💜🙏
@@KK-qd6ro Hi K ❤️ How are you? 😘 sorry, 🙏 I commented, then after re-reading it... It came across as irrelevant, and self-absorbed... So, I decided to erase it in the hopes you wouldn't notice! 😂 Sorry about that. It was a silly comment anyway. My new year's resolution is to self-edit before I express thoughts!! 🤣 Off to a Crackin' start! 😉🙄🙏 Hope you are well? Have a beautiful week!! 😜💛✨
Sorry for the confusion. I need to be more mindful of these things. I didn't mean it in a bad way. Please don't be put off by it. I'm just a silly fool is all!
@@nat998 Confusion is my middle name. I don't really understand much of life, but sometimes now I ask is all. I didn't understand that I got notified of your post but it wasn't in the thread and i couldn't respond. I think sometimes we find our own answers when we write thing out.
I'm ok i've been sketching again . i don't know where it comes from but when i look at them the message is clear. Seems to be my process right now. Crying over sketchs .
You remind me of my youngest son, he'll be 30 this year. Tme is a weird thing.
I wish only the best for you.
Take care. ❤🙏
@@KK-qd6ro ❤️🤗 nothing wrong with crying over sketches! Crying is very cathartic and soothing. It's a release. It is all okay💛. I don't understand life at all. It's a total mystery to me how I'm here, and where I am, and what this is all about. I liken it to a dream because in a dream, I get lost in the inner world and it's a similar predicament of not understanding that reality too. I think it is unknowable to the human body mind avatar thingy. I think it's by design, and we all experience this quest to figure it all out... to crack the code. It feels like that. I think the mind is a questioning machine, and a dreaming machine! And yet...
It all comes back to source of I Am.
I know exactly what this is. I've always felt my sense of being, my self. It's not a person, or thing. It's the seat of consciousness, the sense of knowing... of Self Awareness. My being. The I consciousness. It's always here. What is this. It all comes back to this Am beingness, this seeing. Mystery. All there really is... is what is in front of us, literally what we are perceiving. Maybe the bodymind is just appearing, as an object of this seeing, too. It feels real.. being a subject to a reality, in my dreaming. Why not here too? Maybe, my true essence is just not as concentrated - to this form, I identify as... as I'm conditioned to believe. There is definitely more to this life. I know this beyond a shadow of doubt. This is just a brief little blip in the cosmic radar. It's a total ride. A trip. A life. A journey. A dream. Hope. What did Alan Watts say the point of life was? 😂 It feels like the universe is playing a game. I've always felt this. I feel like what's to be... will be. It's beyond control. I don't know anymore.
I know.. RUclips sends out the notifications regardless. I should have explained myself. Just that you were speaking about a how you felt watching Emily's interview, and I responded by droning on about Me 🙈. In hindsight, it wasn't the time to do that. It was a great chat though, especially about family dysfunction and dynamics. I have a wayward brother too. I would never wish harm on him. I love him more than life. I can't imagine my life without him in it. But, I get it. She grew up in that household. I didn't. It's tough. Life is freaking difficult. Interesting to hear other people's stories, and life experiences. We're all so alike. My mom always claimed to know exactly when she was pregnant with me. She had a similar experience of knowing. She said she woke up and there was a weird green fog or mist coming from outside. She said she couldnt move, and in the morning she knew she was pregnant. Weird. She loves telling that story. She's had some bizarre childhood experiences. She's apparently seen orbs quite a lot. My sister is similar to her. She knows things I have no idea how she could know. It's amazing. Almost sixth sense knowing.
Hope your son has a happy 30th this year! ✨💛🙏 It's one helluva decade. I'm going to be 39 in April. Pretty scary stuff 😝❤️ I can't believe I'm approaching Lennon's age. Mixed emotions! Take good care, sorry for waffling on like a loon Xx 🙃🤗❤️
P.S. Sometimes the answers appear in unexpected ways, so keep an eye out. I believe the universe does send signs 👂👁️
These things have been happening to me and it's kind of disturbing to hear my exact and recent experiences being described in this video. I feel like I have no idea where I am on this journey and seeing stuff like this is kind of freaking me out. I don't know how to process any of it.
You often don't get to know where you are on the journey. Just that it's unfolding. This tribe is the right place to be for that.
Please talk about non situational issues. For example, that rock in the pit of the stomach that unexpectedly surfaces with no obvious trigger.. It could be partly ancestral. Is this the fear barrier? It doesn't seem to be related to the fear of death. Thank you.
I can ask Kevin how he might approach that. But I’ve worked with similar situations many times. I might say the statement would be “My body does NOT feel relaxed.” There are many other approaches to these central contractions described on videos I’ve done. Mostly will be found in the emotion and shadow work playlist
Looking for if I need to react 15:45
Question. Isn't this gonna introduce some sort of bypassing? This is not going to release any trauma and repressed emotions stuck in the body, it's just reactivity right? Because as you've said, the emotional charge with a certain memory will still be there, but there will be no reaction. So for that case I'd say some repression work should be done as well to remove the charge from memories as well as present situations. Idk how that plays though on higher levels of realization and you said it removes a part of the emotional reaction to the situation like fear, so I guess it partially changes the charge that comes with a trigger
This is quite the opposite of bypassing. However there can still be trauma embedded even after reactivity subsides.
@@SimplyAlwaysAwake alright, thanks!
Wow, this is so helpful. I went to Kevin's website and read everything, it explained so much of what I've been experiencing. Thank you both! I have two questions.
1) I'm stuck on the first fetter despite years of self-inquiry. I've been having clear glimpses of no-self for many years. I conceptually know there is no one home, so to speak, and experientially every time I look inside it's clear that there's nothing there! However, despite all that I still haven't had the experiential shift that everyone describes. So could Kevin please explain how to do the first fetter in more detail? (It's not really covered on his website either.)
2) I'm reading your book "Awake" and I'm wondering how the steps of breaking the fetters align with the awakening process that you describe there. Is breaking the first fetter the same as the initial awakening that you describe in the book, with breaking the final fetter being the full realization?
Btw, I'm enrolled in your retreat this weekend and I'd love it if we could do some work with the fetters, or the inquiry process.
Hey. Regarding 1), if you already had your initial awakening (kenshō), I don't think you have to focus on the "no self" too much. As long the charm has been broken deep enough, it's good enough. By deep enough I mean that you have stop to turn your life into a drama, understand that your story is just that and that you are not special (not too much self-centered) Equanimity (fetter 4, 5) it's more about investigating the believes that resolve around the self. The belief that we have to defend ourself. The belief that we need to apply control. The belief that we need to react. Etc. The full "no self" realisation come much much later, there's no need to eat the dessert before the starter.
@Rose Brandt, I'm in the same boat. I don't think I've even had clear glimpses of no self. That felt sense of something behind the eyes and/or in the chest feels like something, not nothing, to me, though I have to admit, even it comes and goes. But the flip doesn't happen.
9:30 - 10:00- 30 perfect seconds sums up a lot
A being with a name Kevin may or may not exist, though there's still a creature who is inhabiting that unique space who apparently exists as a body with intelligence who can hold a conversation...
This helped me to understand what’s been happening because I still don’t have the lived experience that there is no actual me. Logically or whatever I know this is “in my way” but seeing my way free of the “me” is proving difficult. I want to see this because I have definitely “seen” what a mess I’ve formed and how crazy and immature, touchy, & fragile this personality is. Is there any reason why I might not be able to see this?
I need help with reactivity regarding a situation that happened during a dinner with old friends. One of them (a doctor btw) made a joke of two health issues I confessed to him privately in front of all the group. He said "If he eats meat then xyz happens" and proceeded to laugh histericaly about it. I was so shocked by his behavior that I couldn't even react. Only when I came home I cried and got extremely angry and felt betrayed. I haven't spoken with this person since. How would you react to this and address the person next time?
Well if you want to apply this model or exercise the statement would be “Dr ____ Did NOT keep what I told them confidential.” Practically speaking someone that has boundaries issues Uk that degree I would probably just not interact with in the future and certainly wouldn’t talk to them about anything personal.
Regarding Angelo's response, I don't understand how this situation is any different from his story of confronting an emotionally-abusive co-worker? Surely as inappropriate and cruel as this inconsiderate doctor's comments were, he should be 'called out' directly. Your courage may importantly educate him about the importance of empathy, unencumber yourself and spare another. I vote for "speaking your truth." Maybe in an email or letter if u don't want to confront him? Also, you can respectfully remind Dr. D-Bag of the Hippocratic Oath (includes respect for privacy). J Kerr, MD
@@SimplyAlwaysAwake Thank you for your insights and great work 🙏
@@jmk1578 Thank you Jkerr 🙏
This doctor discredit himself as a doctor and as a human being in front of you and other people, so you can just leave him with this fact or send him an e-mail if you need to.
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If you think you're enlightened, go spend a week with your family. -Ram Dass
Infinite gratitude Angelo & Kevin 🙏
So I’m not sure if my ‘reactivity scenario’ fits the technique. the situation is that I’m financially in a hole, and the reaction therefore isn’t something specific. It’s just a general, constant, background presence of anxiety. Also, further negative thoughts arise, judging myself, my life etc. I guess one specific thing that’s bothering me is that I don’t know how I’ll pay my rent next month.
(Obviously I know I first and foremost need to take practical steps to improve my situation. I am doing so, but the results won’t come for another few months, and I’d like to not suffer any more than necessary 🥲)
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Omar, you are far from being alone in your practical situation. I've been mostly living below the poverty line for a number of years. And I'm in my 50s, without much education or an established career and a progressive neurological disease meaning I am losing use of my hands which means possibilities are few to none. I don't want to sound trite or patronising, but this really does present you (as it did and does me) with a valuable opportunity. It's super fertile ground for some powerful emotion work and present moment awareness. A situation like yours (and mine) can give rise to some very powerful emotions, such as enormous fear, shame, self loathing and loneliness. Being able to sit with these emotions without the narrative connected to them ( e.g. I'm a failure, a lousy father, an embarrassment to myself and others, I suck, I'm about to be homeless etc) and actually see these emotions as parts of you that are yearning for recognition, expression and your loving attention can be a portal to enormous peace and acceptance. And, such as in my case, where conditioning, behavioural patterns, beliefs, society's beliefs and judgements, geographic location, sickness or circumstances actually seem to conspire to keep you in that situation leads you necessarily into a certain trust in life and the experience of OKness with things. The situation doesn't NEED to change in order to know peace, to see and experience beauty or to laugh with an uncaused joy multiple times a day. I'm facing homelessness? Wow. Well, that situation is as it is. What else is here? Is there room for something more than that fact in my life? Can it be so that my fear over what (might) happen tomorrow does not need to rob me of enjoying this moment in its completeness?
Also be careful of things like your closing comments: "Obviously I know I first and foremost need to take practical steps to improve my situation". While that may be true, our conditioning can sometimes prevent us from what everyone (including ourselves) would assume to be no-brainer, obvious, self-evident, impossible-to-be-otherwise steps to take. Sometimes we just don't take those steps however much we want to or even try to. And that adds an extra layer of shame and self-loathing when you fail to live up to these seemingly inarguable, obvious measures. Just do your best, friend, and then just focus on what your immediate experience is and let the cards fall as they may. Don't worry. I know it doesn't feel like it but you really are ok, much much better than ok and you always will be. Not even the actualisation of your worst fears can lay a hand on you - the real you - the real me.
@@StephenAndersonSACreate
Such a compassionate response-
@@StephenAndersonSACreate Beautifully said, wow! Such piercing intelligence, and insight into self-limiting beliefs, and conditioning (and reactivity). Such empathy. I'm blown away. This is _the_ message I needed to hear, too. 🙏Thanks for writing it down.
Good for you! That's what it's all about! 💛🙌
@@amyannes 🙏❤
@@nat998 🙏❤
Is it possible to work with the question "why am I not enlightened yet" , having done a lot of emotion work , no particular memory arises. But a generalized sense of lack arises that ties to that.
I might structure the question this way, “how would I know whether I am enlightened or not?”
What does it mean to break the first feather?
If one had an experience of seeing that the notion of a separate self is flawed, leading to a temporary collapse of that notion, would that be breaking the first feather? Even though, by habit, self identification comes back and everything is the same as before that seeing?
Or is it more like an understanding that is so clear that self identification never comes back? But then I wonder aren't the other feathers dependent on the notion of self? Can they exist without believing in a separate self?
For initial awakening you can use the playlist awakening approaches, my book, or any form of self inquiry. In this series we are focusing on the fetters beyond the first.
I tried with a mild reaction I was noticing about someone not considering my needs.. I used the phrase x isn't prioritising my needs. I found in the gap that lots of images/memories surfaced as well as painful feelings in the belly, there are deep layers (samskaras) to this. I found bring a sense of the kindness to what I was feeling helped soften that and the reaction stopped. I am wondering though whether it is possible to break 4 and 5 with so many layers of deep samskaras underneath the reactions that arise.
Yes it is. Often working in this way you will get to the "root" samskara and notice reactivity subsides in many areas.
I’m reading Letting Go by Dr David Hawkins. It seems to me that this book has to do with emotion work…specifically surrendering feelings. And he says that by surrendering in this way, one can reach enlightenment. What’s confusing to me is that from what Kevin says, it seems like awakening has to be the first step and that emotion work is subsequent. Am I misunderstanding Hawkins in that surrendering each emotion that arises can lead to awakening?
There are as many paths as there are people in one way of speaking. I recommend doing what feels most relevant and natural to you. Emotion work is very valuable before and after awakening. There’s no absolute “you have to do this before you can do that” in my experience. I’ve seen this play out in many ways with people.
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Please clarify, in the case of the garbage can example, the finding that because "it pushes my neatness button," is a RATIONALE/ REASON for actually proceeding to reactivity from the gap, and would not break the pattern, correct? I don't understand how "looking for images," actually helps, if a 'reason why' is identified.
I think it just helps some people attune to the looking if it feels to abstract for them.
Almost there....separate from looking for a "reason why" (abstract, images, etc.), for the reactivity, IF/WHEN one identifies a RATIONALE (i.e. neatness), then what? Figure out if it's worth the emotional price of reactivity? A desire for neatness MAY be 'worthy of reactivity/response' for some, equivalent to correcting an emotionally abusive co-worker for others. What am I missing? Thanks
FINAL Comment--I just realized that Kevin Schanilec was the AMAZING Liberation Unleashed (LU) coach in Dr. Christiane Michelberger's 2022 book 'Finding Awakening.' IMHO, Angelo's book is far SUPERIOR regarding pointers/practical advise, but I was very impressed with Kevin's insightful and often humorous communications as a coach! And his obvious SUCCESS in facilitating an awakening. Not my personal experience with LU, but since the coaches are volunteers, it's understandably hit-or-miss regarding sympatico.
@@jmk1578 I would say when there’s rationale, remind yourself that that is simply thought and return attention to the sensations associated with that statement of the situation.
How subtle do reactions go? Exactly what is the line between emotion and reaction?
hey how come you don't have videos on the most important one self view
Wow.
During retreat I worked through a lot of emotions and identity hang ups, but I feel that energetically there is trauma that I don’t remember from childhood. My father was abusive and this interview is helpful in working through the things I can remember, but what about the memories that are repressed?
You can consider working with a therapist if you really want to investigate, just beware false memory syndrome is a real phenomenon, so be sure the therapist knows what they are doing.
@@SimplyAlwaysAwake I’ve been working with a therapist for over 2 years now. Nothing has surfaced. I wonder if it even matters if I remember? I’m going to try TRE with Chris and other somatic work.
@@riznahI tend to believe that what needs to surface will , otherwise just release it ❤️
Is there a video about fetters 1 to 3? can't find it so far, they are not in the playlist either
Where to find guides for this?
Having read a lot of the writings on his website I have to say its quite unclear what to do with this, it seems quite descriptive of the system and all the pitfalls etc but how to actually apply is not addressed directly, where do I start with that?
This stage even though it’s a lot of work in the reaction, emotion spectrum , actually requires attunement to subtle things. It can be very helpful to use a guide here.
i feel like this is the missing link . big time.
I think a lot of people overlook this honestly.
One confusing point: at one point about mid-way through, you both agree that you both experience no reactivity arising, but then towards the end of the conversation, Kevin emphasizes that the 'urge' to react, and the uncomfortable feeling in the body will still arise, just that noticing the gap, you will find no reason to react. Is that your current experience Angelo? Thank you!
Uncomfortable experiences can still occur but no reaction arises. In fact after 8th fetter very intense physical experiences can arise. We will cover all of this later in the series.
@@SimplyAlwaysAwake just awesome. Thanks Angelo.