I have been banned from almost every trans sub for asking simple questions about vaginal atrophy as a result of testosterone, I'm glad to see there is a sub called r/honestransgender that says you won't be down voted or banned for speaking freely. Maybe I can actually ask some questions as an agp myself who was thinking about transitioning until I found out WPATH is a bunch of corrupt liars
Letting your fetishes take over your life and practicing it in public aren’t acceptable behaviors and violate people’s consent, so I don’t think we can or should ever accept AGPs being “women” full time. They need to learn to control their desires and keep it in the bedroom just like everyone else does.
It is present in all forms of opposite sex identification to some degree, even in hsts, but is overshadowed by the effeminate characteristics present in many hsts from a young age, and therefore it is often missed in hsts.
@@dewilew2137 hsts are attracted to being women and are turned on by being in the feminine roll and looking like women just like agp's the difference is hsts are attracted to men and are naturally effeminate in both body type and mannerisims. Hsts get turned on by dressing up in sexy clothes and lingerie but then so do Females.
Good of you to address the heterogenous nature of agp, and the multiple reasons someone may become obsessed with cross sex ideation to the level where it becomes paraphiliac and cause someone to seek social/medical transition.
Someone who actually talks about Autogynephilia instead of immediately denying it? The very fact euphoria boners exist proves AGP is real (and I'm AGP trans)
Fetishes are nontraditional sexual interests or behaviors (kinks) that are, for a particular individual, a deep and abiding (and possibly even necessary) element of sexual arousal and activity. Paraphilias are fetishes that have escalated in ways that have resulted in negative life consequences. Gender dysphoria can cause a fetish, but a fetish does not make a paraphilia.
Great talk, Ray. As a “detransitioned” FtM (not that I can actually ever undo what I have done to my body, but that’s another subject), this actually causes me to reflect on some personal experiences that might resemble auto-androphylia (sp?). It was not the driving force, however, in my transition. And I think it is not talked about because women’s sexuality is just different from men’s. (I can speak from experience having had male level T coursing through my veins for 13 years). So I’m not surprised it has not been referred to as the driving force for us females to transition.
I think most people just do not care about transmen because they cannot do the same amount of harm to others as someone maliciously pretending to be a transwoman could do. So most people are way more willing to live and let live as there are no special benefits someone gets for being a man and its a rather solitary life. So transmen fly under the radar outside of trans spaces. I think Autoandrophilia is probably a thing that is driving a lot of women to transition rn. Female sexuality is a lot more storybased with stuff like erotica and fanfiction being huge driving forces. BL(Boys Love), Yaoi or just straight up gay porn are all very popular among young women right now and while the spectator role might be initially attractive some might find themselves self inserting as one of the dudes. Also important to point out here that these categories of erotica and porn are not actually reflective of gay men's relationships and are instead rather romanticized by the female authors.
It's so great to see you talk about AGP is such a relaxed, straightforward manner without all the BS and gaslighting. You are modeling how to put an end to the enormous shame about AGP that seems to afflict most guys with the condition and is a big factor in their massive amounts of denial. Sometimes I get the impression that the shame men and boys with AGP feel about their AGP causes them worse suffering than the AGP itself, Anyways, AGP is a serious condition, but it's also funny, and leads to people doing/saying funny things, like many of the embarrassing and horrble affllictions many people struggle with. You are doing a good job of showing patience, understanding and compassion for your fellow sufferers whilst also seeing the humour in the thinking and behavior that AGPs display and calling out all the BS. And you're doing this without coming off like a pretentious navel-gazing narcissist the way Phil Illy comes across to me. (Illy also gives me creep vibes, whereas you don't at all.) Anyways, it must be so liberating for you to be able to talk about this and in such a frank, refreshing way. Or at least I hope that's how it feels to you.
Well it’s also extremely aggressive at shutting down discussion and censorship, and it’s also predominantly male. so basically even if you do say something liberal and left and feminist, if it’s something these guys disagree with and they start downvoting, the downvotes pile up. Or you even just get banned on subs just for commenting on another sub they don’t like, even if your comment was neutral or on their side on a topic. They just automatically ban people on subs. It’s not a productive place. Lots of misinformation just constantly getting posted and comments that are wrong getting upvoted.
AGP is real, but I don’t understand the desire to physically modify to try to “pass” as a woman. It seems like a crazy making ambition for you and all. If AGP is more a sexual orientation, it can be a private sexual expression, and likely has existed in degrees since humanity exists. The absurdity is to see many public AGP are biological fathers! They are men, mostly straight! Do they have any respect for their children? Better to never know your father than have him publicly identify as trans. My dad was in a religious cult, which is almost as bad as trans cult.
@Darkstar951 This is cope. The reason people complain about public AGPs is because most of them suck at crossdressing and dont seem to put in any effort while wearing some of the skimpiest clothes imaginable. They behave like parodies of women which would be fine in a private setting with them and their partner but does not belong in public. Its to the point of exhibitionism which is probably a part of their fetish too. This is not comparable to a heterosexual, homosexual or transsexual couple being fully dressed and showing slight amounts of affection in public.
@@ThoraxtheDarkk cults are lies. They replace inconvenient reality (sex is real and immutable) and replaces it with a fantasy, that gender isn’t sex, and overrides sex. Men can wear dresses as men. Stereotypes dont a woman make. Gender nonconforming women are not men because they dislike makeup or dresses. The cult is regressive and destructive. Men win in female sports, are moved into women’s persons as fully functional males. California solves this by free condoms in women’s prison. How does a woman prove coerced sex in a cell with a male? It is insane to abuse women like this.
@@ThoraxtheDarkk this is not “gender expression”. We can have masculine women, feminine men. That gender nonconformity. But pretending you are opposite sex and society medicalizing children on that pretense, that is a cult.
as you can see the wording is the problem. the words that suggest that they are sexual deviants. there should be another terminology to describe the same thing, without the "paraphilia" narrative. it doesn't need a pathological explanation why people want to look prettier/better/more feminine, especially if they are attracted to femininity. but still, apparently most heterosexual men do have a "barrier" between their sexuality and their body image. it helps them be comfortable with their bodies even if they are sexually repulsed by other male bodies. this barrier seems to be unique to straight men. because male bodies are designed to be scary, not attractive. so they need a defense mechanism that convince themselves that they can look good as men. but trauma, such as negative experiences relating to their male bodies can make this defense mechanism ineffective.
"people want to look prettier/better/more feminine, especially if they are attracted to femininity" the point of AGP is Men who have this fetish gets *BONER* from imagining himself being women, if men who just want to look prettier/better/more feminine they wouldn't get turned on by those since it's basic hygiene everyone can do
I have a college acquaintance who went full on crusading trans women persona. "Lexie" posted a photo focused on their thighs in a bikini. That feels like such a dead giveaway for AGP.
In the same way they shut down or dismiss people who admit they are AGP, they are dismissive of gay men and lesbians who say that when they were children they had gender dysphoria. For a group of people who harp on about being accepting and supportive, they don't accept anyone whose experience disproves their ideology.
These mtfs here on this sub Reddit saying ‘it’s just a fetish right?’ And then all of the gaslighting and cult like pushing towards ‘no, you are an egg’ etc.
Hearing you read out the thread titles about the euphoria bones cracked me up. You should do a regular feature called something like "Euphoria Boner Report" or "Euphoria Boner Roundup" where you read out the titles of threads and snippets of the comments showing how ofen these guys mention their boners and all the things that prompt them. Like volleyball shorts. Good grief. LOL. Another regular feature of "just a fetish?" threads would be good too.
One really tragic thing is that Mr. Blanchard did so much for the transgender community, and now his reward is to see his good name smeared and get dragged through the dirt. Transgender ideology has done so much harm.
I think there is a sexual component for gay men who transition as well. Lots of gay men have the sexual kink of dressing in drag and transition can sometimes follow on from that kink.
Why is it considered transphobic to acknowledge agp as well as all the other varied reasons different people transition. It's about understanding all this diversity and sorting out the reality of realism, real life
Sorry if you've covered this before, but what's your take on many heterosexual AGPs' claim that they've felt since they were very young, say 4 or 5 years old, that they were really girls on the inside or should have been girls? Many ppl say that this is just rationalizing/retrofitting/narrative building; very young children don't have fetishes or even the beginnings of fetishes. But if gay boys can feel personally drawn to femininity from their earliest years and a sense of themselves as stereotypically different from other boys, I suspect straight boys can too. But I also suspect it has more to do with feeling socially disconnected, which could more likely be rooted in neurodivergence and/or some level of trauma, even just being raised in an unhappy or financially unstable family, or by overly strict parental authority figures with traditional behavioral expectations. So whereas some or possibly many AGP's only start entertaining trans notions starting around puberty but pretend to themselves they've always felt this way, I suspect for others the roots of this mental illness actually are evident to themselves much earlier. They just don't recognize the neurological and life complexities influencing the development of their AGP obsessions. But what do you think?
AGP itself is not a fetish it's just an attraction to femininity without paradoxically wanting to be masculine. but if it's suppressed and shamed, it can result in fetishes. there can indeed be early signs of AGP, but they may also be lying, because it's just the classic story that old-school gatekeepers and doctors want to hear
Ray has said himself that he felt drawn to feminine clothing items well before puberty. I have heard other AGPs say the same. However, the sexual arousal does not start until the advent of puberty. This is also not the case for all AGPs. The AGP in my life had no proclivities for feminine things until his mid 20s.
@@StormBringer5 Interesting, I wonder what the solution to that would be, because some end up transitioning and seem help with their life the way it is, and some end of just sticking to cross dressing
Fetishes and sexual proclivities exist far before puberty. For example, fat admirers (people who find weight gain or fat people sexy) often times report fascination with weight gain in cartoons or shows when they're younger. I grew up around a young 7 year old boy at my church that we all knew was gay. He came out at 16 to absolutely no one's surprise. Sexuality is in you from the time you are born.
Whereas I do think it's problematic that this person was attacked when they're just exploring themselves, I think that it's a tremendous jump to think that these sort of behaviors have to do with anything resembling an autogynophilia. If we're making that concession, then we're going to have to say that many cis-heteronormative people also have the same condition. In reality, when someone is doing things in their body that lines up with their gender identity, they are more connected to their feelings and desires. And those can emerge in interesting ways. This isn't a gender dysphoria thing. This is a human thing. I know a lot of guys who will stare at themselves in the mirror and enjoy seeing their male body as if a woman was looking at it. And yet we don't have "autophalophilia" as a claim for anything like that. And, we don't say that women who are interested in other women are autogynophilic when they feel turned on by wearing an outfit they find sexy. Yes, it's a well documented phenomenon. But honestly, it seems to point to the truth of an internal genuine gender identity rather than the opposite. Part of what causes sexual arousal is a connection to the body and the mind, and in these behaviors, speak to people who are genuinely finding themselves, rather than some sort of perverted fetish. It is very normal to be more easily aroused when you feel comfortable in your own skin. There's a reason Autogynophilia was taken out of the DSM, And that's because it doesn't match reality. The largest study we have that supposedly shows proof of it, is a pretty clear case of bias that doesn't belong in scientific literature. And meanwhile, we have study after study that shows the persistence of internal gender identity in an overwhelming majority of cases of dysphoria. That's not to say that detransition isn't valid. It absolutely is. But it's just not something that is common compared to the overwhelming data we have on transition causing tremendous quality of life improvements. (whether that be social, hormonal, or surgical). So I'm not saying there isn't some sort of arousal thing going on. But it honestly looks like the person quoted from Reddit is just confused by a lot of the misinformation out there, and is honestly just dealing with run-of-the-mill gender dysphoria. Pretending it's a fetish isn't going to help them. What will help is giving them as much accurate information as possible about what transition looks like, and give them tools to honestly assess for themselves who they are. We can't decide what somebody is in isn't. Only they can decide that for themselves. But, we can also debunk myths and allow people to have a more educated understanding of themselves. Insisting that it's autogynophilia rather than exploring other far more likely explanations isn't helping the person, even if the person themselves thinks that that's what they have.
Honest question, supose science could cure AGP, let’s say you take pills for the rest of your life and those desires become “normal”, “100% straight”, do you think it would be either “ethical”or “correct” to follow that kind of therapy?
@@Verboten19 what I mean by “correct” is changing the subject’s natural arousal either chemically or whatever could do it, of course ultimately we have the decision, but I mean the question in a philosophical way, supose it’s you, would you do it? Do you have agp too?
@@ivanmoreno3935I think part of the reason gender medicine was even allowed was because a lot of these dudes have really inappropriate sexual behavior as a fetish paraphilia. They’re acting out in very inappropriate ways due to their sex drive, so the doctors approved giving them blockers or estrogen as a way to lessen their sexual impulses. By keeping their sexual impulses under control, ideally they’d be less likely to commit sex crimes.
Against someone's will? No. If someone wants to and its 100% safe? Sure. The problem with denying AGP is fear of what you are. It causes you to lie, and living lies is the source of insanity. People see it. It makes them wary. Being honest about who and what you are allow you to live in a way that doesn't lead to insanity.
In terms of morals or ethics, I don't think a person is required to take it. It's not immoral to have AGP, so a person is no obligated to get rid of it if they can. Basically, that's because AGP doesn't affect other people. Other desires/conditions have potential to affect other people negatively, so you could argue for an obligation to get treatment there. There might be a practical benefit to making that change, but that would be a matter of choice and not obligation. Similarly, someone who is really short could benefit practically by taking a pill to be normal height, but wouldn't be morally obligated to take it. However, you could even imagine some scenario, maybe you need to provide for your kids and can do that by being taller, where you can benefit others without harming yourself. You might argue that you are obligated to get the treatment in that case.
@@RayAlexWilliams I wonder what would be a better distinction, because it seems like from many of the people who acknowledge AGP tend to see trans women into two types of categories. Those who have self attraction of being a women IE AGP. and those rare few who end up transitioning because for whatever reason they just feel pain presenting as their native sex.
If you had zero sexual excitement or interest. If for example you want to cut your skin off to cut your beard off, and a smooth face gives you zero pleasure or interest, just a cessation of pure pain, then you have non-agp gender dysphoria. Does this exist? Doubtful.
@@defennia Extreme AGP can cause body dysmorphia which is why it isn’t helpful to distinguish the two. At this stage, I don’t think we have an answer to your question since we can’t have honest conversations about AGP yet.
@@Laviudanegra16 Yeah, and I mean I'm not trying to transition, but I will consider it as a last resort. I'm just lucky I didn't get full on genital dysphoria and it seems to only come whenever I could potential get an erection
Finding sexual release from viewing yourself in the gender you identify with isn’t a fetish or kink lol also you have to consider some people (like myself) who experienced sexual trauma as children or young adults get aroused by positive stimuli because our brains have been rewired. I thought my transition was something like a kink or fetish because I would get physical signs of Being turned on from merely thinking about being in a body I knew I needed. People are very complicated you can’t make blanket statements about people just because of your own experiences
Do you think it’s possible to convince an AGP they’re AGP? The one I know is wholly rooted in the idea that he is a woman. He cannot define woman, he simply *knows* that he is one. The belief is not based in logic, but very strong emotions. My personal opinion is that it is not possible to convince an AGP with logic (at least not first). The narrative has to collapse via an emotional experience before the AGP can be open to logic.
Yes, I suspect you are right. Once the narrative of "I am a true, real, authentic woman and that is the true explanation for my entire life history" it becomes incredibly hard to break down that narrative without some deeply personal come-to-Jesus moment that shatters the epistemic bubble. Particularly when to be a trans woman in "good standing" with the community requires repeating the same dogmas about AGP being "pseudoscience." It is self-reinforcing group think.
Get him to accept that humans can't change s3x. Be prepared for a lot of ridiculous arguments about clownfish and inters3x conditions. Have patience and be persistent. Once he accepts that, you can work your way up to AGP.
@@ellisdunegan what shall "can't change sex" mean? With present technology a production of "the other" gametes can't be reached, but a majority of humanity is infertile, so that cannot be the deciding thing. All you "can't change sex" advocates ever brought up is arbitrary assuming. With the same justtification you can say a change of the majority of sex characteristics, which IS possible, can be seen as a sex change, despite a production of "the other " gametes is not reached.
@@miriamlana833 s3x organs are actual organs in the same way hearts and lungs and livers are organs. Imagine sewing two stomachs together to make a pair of lungs and saying "they can hold air so surely they can breathe." Or using intestines to make a brain and saying "because it looks like a brain it must be a brain and can think." You can't surgically change one organ into another. You just end up being a man with mutilated junk.
@@miriamlana833 what is your opinion on detransitioners? Men who stop taking estrogen go back to being ordinary men. Almost like they were men the whole time and they were only men taking exogenous hormones...
If sex & gender are different concepts then autogynephillia is the biological reaction & gender euphoria is the mental/emotional one. They could easily happen at the same time but shouldn't be conflated as the exact same thing.
the self admitted AGP at 5:35 says he wants to be more attractive to males (hence why hes medically transitioning).... does that not make him HSTS? (gen q considering the sexuality seems to be an important aspect in categorization? at least from what i've gleaned so far)
Singular they for an unknown person has existed for a while to save space instead of having to type his or her. I will agree that using they for someone you know is silly.
@@RayAlexWilliamsdo you have an opinion on whether the stronger factor here is the desire for social respectability or the desire to truly be a woman? Obviously both are at play, but I wonder which is more important. The former might change if society changes (becomes accepting of autoheterosexuality), but the latter is internal and probably wouldn't change for most. If the latter is the stronger motivation in the denial of agp, getting people who have this to accept it seems like a lost cause.
@@RayAlexWilliamsnot only that it’s because terfs call the agp like the word agp is synonymous with a creepy pervert porn addict and who wants to be recognized as that, thus the terfs and the unaware agps don’t even know what agp actually is
While I do admit that the responses on Reddit to this person were lacking understanding and care, there's a reason it's usually disregarded. The small amount of study that concluded it as a valid explanation was fraught with bias and lack of scientific rigor. Meanwhile, it's been overwhelmingly shown over and over again that gender dysphoria is a real and persistent phenomena shown in a large portion of the population. And further, that transition consistently leads to vastly improved outcomes for this demographic despite the challenges of transition itself. But just take a step back for a second and think about what's being claimed in autogynophilia. Do we ever use this phrase for women who are turned on when looking themselves in the mirror? Or do we just consider that normal human behavior? What If she's a lesbian, and is attracted to women's bodies? If a lesbian, looking in the mirror and turned on by her own body isn't regularly called autogynophilia, then what exactly are we diagnosing here? The point is, that trans women are hypersexualized to the point that any mention at all of any sort of sexuality is construed as the reason that they transitioned in the first place. If a trans woman is attracted to women, they're considered a predator in disguise. If a trans woman is attracted to men, they're considered a gay man who's confused. There's no way to have any sort of sexual desire and not be invalidated. But I think this gets to a deeper problem with the entire framework. Calling it autogynophilia also perpetuates the notion that men are just interested in sex, which I don't think is accurate. The assumption is that the only reason a man would want to become a woman is because they're hypersexual. If it was truly about anything more than that, We would also have the phrase "autophalophilia", but we don't. And so we do a disservice to both genders. Because we say that the only reason a man would ever want to transition is because of a perverted sexual desire. And then we also say, that a woman couldn't possibly do the same in the other direction, but that instead she must been deceived or tricked. It's very clear when we make these accusations of cause for transition, that we have locked ourselves into gender stereotypes and thrust those onto the very situations they're breaking free from them.
@@aaronakbar420 Oh a lot of transmen 100% fell into it from gooning to too much BL, Yaoi or gayporn, its just not talked about because nobody cares about transmen. People will gladly award transmen the same shit treatment that men get, even high five them if they make it. What you fail to recognize is that AGPs are not trans and transition will not help them, they need their penis to live out their fetish and once that is gone their male sexual desire is reduced to 0 from what little remained after the hormones. Trans women and AGPs are 2 different things and treating them the same will harm both. AGP is most evident in the self admissions of AGPs who have transitioned medically and surgically and reported what a mistake it was, many of them didnt survive long after. Intersectionality is poison.
No, everything I’ve seen says it’s permanent, but things like wearing women’s clothes are less and less exciting over time because you just get bored of them.
As a trans feminine person, there is a lot on this subject that I can say. I've done a lot learning and work since 2019, on HRT for 3 years now, and I can say that I dislike reality denial, intellectual dishonesty. I can't just say people don't have AGP experiences. I can, however, focus on myself, and understand my own motivations, and if AGP is one of them, dude still hasn't given me it's contact info on Discord so we can "bro" out. Thanks for reading.
@@phililly no. you are attracted to women and femininity. but unlike most heterosexual men, you don't separate your attraction to femininity and your self-image. but i don't think that's in itself a fetish or a paraphilia. but it can lead to fetishes, especially if you have no other way expressing your desired femininity. but seeing being transgender as a fetish is both harmful and factually wrong, and it's a political tool of anti-trans activists
![FNAF vs TF2 - Episode 2 [SFM]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/z5b3V2-VLb0/mqdefault.jpg)
Activists: "Listen to trans people's experiences!"
Trans person: "I have AGP"
Activists: "Sorry, we meant only listen to trans people we agree with"
💯
So true
Yes indeed.
@@dr-ozone so true
I have been banned from almost every trans sub for asking simple questions about vaginal atrophy as a result of testosterone, I'm glad to see there is a sub called r/honestransgender that says you won't be down voted or banned for speaking freely. Maybe I can actually ask some questions as an agp myself who was thinking about transitioning until I found out WPATH is a bunch of corrupt liars
Letting your fetishes take over your life and practicing it in public aren’t acceptable behaviors and violate people’s consent, so I don’t think we can or should ever accept AGPs being “women” full time. They need to learn to control their desires and keep it in the bedroom just like everyone else does.
You’ve convinced me it’s a thing. And it makes sense to me when I think about a few ppl I have known
It is present in all forms of opposite sex identification to some degree, even in hsts, but is overshadowed by the effeminate characteristics present in many hsts from a young age, and therefore it is often missed in hsts.
@elijahmarie77444 we do not believe in yiur trans religion
@@tonyhoffman3309 how does it manifest in hsts since they aren’t attracted to women?
@@dewilew2137 hsts are attracted to being women and are turned on by being in the feminine roll and looking like women just like agp's the difference is hsts are attracted to men and are naturally effeminate in both body type and mannerisims. Hsts get turned on by dressing up in sexy clothes and lingerie but then so do Females.
@@tonyhoffman3309very true. It's one of the few things hsts and agp have in common
Describes AGP perfectly as they descibe their feeling and actions. Then denies it exists. I feel gaslit so much by this shit. :/
Right? It’s wild.
lol I loved the narrating while scrolling through the search results: "putting on a dress, euphoria boner, just shaved my legs, euphoria boner..."
Good of you to address the heterogenous nature of agp, and the multiple reasons someone may become obsessed with cross sex ideation to the level where it becomes paraphiliac and cause someone to seek social/medical transition.
Someone who actually talks about Autogynephilia instead of immediately denying it?
The very fact euphoria boners exist proves AGP is real (and I'm AGP trans)
And the dysphoria flops or dysphoria erectile dysfucntion
Fetishes are nontraditional sexual interests or behaviors (kinks) that are, for a particular individual, a deep and abiding (and possibly even necessary) element of sexual arousal and activity. Paraphilias are fetishes that have escalated in ways that have resulted in negative life consequences. Gender dysphoria can cause a fetish, but a fetish does not make a paraphilia.
Great talk, Ray. As a “detransitioned” FtM (not that I can actually ever undo what I have done to my body, but that’s another subject), this actually causes me to reflect on some personal experiences that might resemble auto-androphylia (sp?). It was not the driving force, however, in my transition. And I think it is not talked about because women’s sexuality is just different from men’s. (I can speak from experience having had male level T coursing through my veins for 13 years). So I’m not surprised it has not been referred to as the driving force for us females to transition.
I think most people just do not care about transmen because they cannot do the same amount of harm to others as someone maliciously pretending to be a transwoman could do. So most people are way more willing to live and let live as there are no special benefits someone gets for being a man and its a rather solitary life.
So transmen fly under the radar outside of trans spaces.
I think Autoandrophilia is probably a thing that is driving a lot of women to transition rn.
Female sexuality is a lot more storybased with stuff like erotica and fanfiction being huge driving forces.
BL(Boys Love), Yaoi or just straight up gay porn are all very popular among young women right now and while the spectator role might be initially attractive some might find themselves self inserting as one of the dudes.
Also important to point out here that these categories of erotica and porn are not actually reflective of gay men's relationships and are instead rather romanticized by the female authors.
It's so great to see you talk about AGP is such a relaxed, straightforward manner without all the BS and gaslighting. You are modeling how to put an end to the enormous shame about AGP that seems to afflict most guys with the condition and is a big factor in their massive amounts of denial. Sometimes I get the impression that the shame men and boys with AGP feel about their AGP causes them worse suffering than the AGP itself,
Anyways, AGP is a serious condition, but it's also funny, and leads to people doing/saying funny things, like many of the embarrassing and horrble affllictions many people struggle with.
You are doing a good job of showing patience, understanding and compassion for your fellow sufferers whilst also seeing the humour in the thinking and behavior that AGPs display and calling out all the BS. And you're doing this without coming off like a pretentious navel-gazing narcissist the way Phil Illy comes across to me. (Illy also gives me creep vibes, whereas you don't at all.) Anyways, it must be so liberating for you to be able to talk about this and in such a frank, refreshing way. Or at least I hope that's how it feels to you.
Reddit is an extreme positive feedback loop for hyper-liberal thinking.
Well it’s also extremely aggressive at shutting down discussion and censorship, and it’s also predominantly male. so basically even if you do say something liberal and left and feminist, if it’s something these guys disagree with and they start downvoting, the downvotes pile up. Or you even just get banned on subs just for commenting on another sub they don’t like, even if your comment was neutral or on their side on a topic. They just automatically ban people on subs. It’s not a productive place. Lots of misinformation just constantly getting posted and comments that are wrong getting upvoted.
AGP is real, but I don’t understand the desire to physically modify to try to “pass” as a woman. It seems like a crazy making ambition for you and all. If AGP is more a sexual orientation, it can be a private sexual expression, and likely has existed in degrees since humanity exists.
The absurdity is to see many public AGP are biological fathers! They are men, mostly straight! Do they have any respect for their children? Better to never know your father than have him publicly identify as trans. My dad was in a religious cult, which is almost as bad as trans cult.
@Darkstar951 This is cope.
The reason people complain about public AGPs is because most of them suck at crossdressing and dont seem to put in any effort while wearing some of the skimpiest clothes imaginable.
They behave like parodies of women which would be fine in a private setting with them and their partner but does not belong in public.
Its to the point of exhibitionism which is probably a part of their fetish too.
This is not comparable to a heterosexual, homosexual or transsexual couple being fully dressed and showing slight amounts of affection in public.
Whats wrong with someone dressing not in the way society deems though ? Is it really that comparable to being in a cult ?
@@ThoraxtheDarkk cults are lies. They replace inconvenient reality (sex is real and immutable) and replaces it with a fantasy, that gender isn’t sex, and overrides sex. Men can wear dresses as men. Stereotypes dont a woman make. Gender nonconforming women are not men because they dislike makeup or dresses. The cult is regressive and destructive. Men win in female sports, are moved into women’s persons as fully functional males. California solves this by free condoms in women’s prison. How does a woman prove coerced sex in a cell with a male? It is insane to abuse women like this.
@@ThoraxtheDarkk this is not “gender expression”. We can have masculine women, feminine men. That gender nonconformity. But pretending you are opposite sex and society medicalizing children on that pretense, that is a cult.
as you can see the wording is the problem. the words that suggest that they are sexual deviants. there should be another terminology to describe the same thing, without the "paraphilia" narrative.
it doesn't need a pathological explanation why people want to look prettier/better/more feminine, especially if they are attracted to femininity. but still, apparently most heterosexual men do have a "barrier" between their sexuality and their body image. it helps them be comfortable with their bodies even if they are sexually repulsed by other male bodies. this barrier seems to be unique to straight men. because male bodies are designed to be scary, not attractive. so they need a defense mechanism that convince themselves that they can look good as men. but trauma, such as negative experiences relating to their male bodies can make this defense mechanism ineffective.
This is why Phil Illy prefers the term “autoheterosexual”. It destigmatizes AGP by framing it as a sexuality instead of a paraphilia.
"...e male bodies are designed to be scary..."
Profound.
"people want to look prettier/better/more feminine, especially if they are attracted to femininity"
the point of AGP is Men who have this fetish gets *BONER* from imagining himself being women, if men who just want to look prettier/better/more feminine they wouldn't get turned on by those since it's basic hygiene everyone can do
I have a college acquaintance who went full on crusading trans women persona. "Lexie" posted a photo focused on their thighs in a bikini. That feels like such a dead giveaway for AGP.
In the same way they shut down or dismiss people who admit they are AGP, they are dismissive of gay men and lesbians who say that when they were children they had gender dysphoria. For a group of people who harp on about being accepting and supportive, they don't accept anyone whose experience disproves their ideology.
you need to write a book
These mtfs here on this sub Reddit saying ‘it’s just a fetish right?’ And then all of the gaslighting and cult like pushing towards ‘no, you are an egg’ etc.
Hearing you read out the thread titles about the euphoria bones cracked me up. You should do a regular feature called something like "Euphoria Boner Report" or "Euphoria Boner Roundup" where you read out the titles of threads and snippets of the comments showing how ofen these guys mention their boners and all the things that prompt them. Like volleyball shorts. Good grief. LOL.
Another regular feature of "just a fetish?" threads would be good too.
One really tragic thing is that Mr. Blanchard did so much for the transgender community, and now his reward is to see his good name smeared and get dragged through the dirt. Transgender ideology has done so much harm.
💯
They hate the truth, don't they?
I think there is a sexual component for gay men who transition as well. Lots of gay men have the sexual kink of dressing in drag and transition can sometimes follow on from that kink.
Take a shot everytime boner is mentioned 😂
Why is it considered transphobic to acknowledge agp as well as all the other varied reasons different people transition. It's about understanding all this diversity and sorting out the reality of realism, real life
Sorry if you've covered this before, but what's your take on many heterosexual AGPs' claim that they've felt since they were very young, say 4 or 5 years old, that they were really girls on the inside or should have been girls? Many ppl say that this is just rationalizing/retrofitting/narrative building; very young children don't have fetishes or even the beginnings of fetishes. But if gay boys can feel personally drawn to femininity from their earliest years and a sense of themselves as stereotypically different from other boys, I suspect straight boys can too. But I also suspect it has more to do with feeling socially disconnected, which could more likely be rooted in neurodivergence and/or some level of trauma, even just being raised in an unhappy or financially unstable family, or by overly strict parental authority figures with traditional behavioral expectations.
So whereas some or possibly many AGP's only start entertaining trans notions starting around puberty but pretend to themselves they've always felt this way, I suspect for others the roots of this mental illness actually are evident to themselves much earlier. They just don't recognize the neurological and life complexities influencing the development of their AGP obsessions. But what do you think?
AGP itself is not a fetish it's just an attraction to femininity without paradoxically wanting to be masculine. but if it's suppressed and shamed, it can result in fetishes.
there can indeed be early signs of AGP, but they may also be lying, because it's just the classic story that old-school gatekeepers and doctors want to hear
Just be happy you haven't experience of trying DIY to remove your penis.
Ray has said himself that he felt drawn to feminine clothing items well before puberty. I have heard other AGPs say the same. However, the sexual arousal does not start until the advent of puberty.
This is also not the case for all AGPs. The AGP in my life had no proclivities for feminine things until his mid 20s.
@@StormBringer5 Interesting, I wonder what the solution to that would be, because some end up transitioning and seem help with their life the way it is, and some end of just sticking to cross dressing
Fetishes and sexual proclivities exist far before puberty. For example, fat admirers (people who find weight gain or fat people sexy) often times report fascination with weight gain in cartoons or shows when they're younger. I grew up around a young 7 year old boy at my church that we all knew was gay. He came out at 16 to absolutely no one's surprise. Sexuality is in you from the time you are born.
Whereas I do think it's problematic that this person was attacked when they're just exploring themselves, I think that it's a tremendous jump to think that these sort of behaviors have to do with anything resembling an autogynophilia. If we're making that concession, then we're going to have to say that many cis-heteronormative people also have the same condition.
In reality, when someone is doing things in their body that lines up with their gender identity, they are more connected to their feelings and desires. And those can emerge in interesting ways. This isn't a gender dysphoria thing. This is a human thing.
I know a lot of guys who will stare at themselves in the mirror and enjoy seeing their male body as if a woman was looking at it. And yet we don't have "autophalophilia" as a claim for anything like that. And, we don't say that women who are interested in other women are autogynophilic when they feel turned on by wearing an outfit they find sexy.
Yes, it's a well documented phenomenon. But honestly, it seems to point to the truth of an internal genuine gender identity rather than the opposite. Part of what causes sexual arousal is a connection to the body and the mind, and in these behaviors, speak to people who are genuinely finding themselves, rather than some sort of perverted fetish.
It is very normal to be more easily aroused when you feel comfortable in your own skin. There's a reason Autogynophilia was taken out of the DSM, And that's because it doesn't match reality. The largest study we have that supposedly shows proof of it, is a pretty clear case of bias that doesn't belong in scientific literature. And meanwhile, we have study after study that shows the persistence of internal gender identity in an overwhelming majority of cases of dysphoria. That's not to say that detransition isn't valid. It absolutely is. But it's just not something that is common compared to the overwhelming data we have on transition causing tremendous quality of life improvements. (whether that be social, hormonal, or surgical).
So I'm not saying there isn't some sort of arousal thing going on. But it honestly looks like the person quoted from Reddit is just confused by a lot of the misinformation out there, and is honestly just dealing with run-of-the-mill gender dysphoria. Pretending it's a fetish isn't going to help them. What will help is giving them as much accurate information as possible about what transition looks like, and give them tools to honestly assess for themselves who they are. We can't decide what somebody is in isn't. Only they can decide that for themselves. But, we can also debunk myths and allow people to have a more educated understanding of themselves.
Insisting that it's autogynophilia rather than exploring other far more likely explanations isn't helping the person, even if the person themselves thinks that that's what they have.
Honest question, supose science could cure AGP, let’s say you take pills for the rest of your life and those desires become “normal”, “100% straight”, do you think it would be either “ethical”or “correct” to follow that kind of therapy?
I've also wondered this. I don't see why it wouldn't be ethical if someone has informed consent about it (see what I did there...)
@@Verboten19 what I mean by “correct” is changing the subject’s natural arousal either chemically or whatever could do it, of course ultimately we have the decision, but I mean the question in a philosophical way, supose it’s you, would you do it? Do you have agp too?
@@ivanmoreno3935I think part of the reason gender medicine was even allowed was because a lot of these dudes have really inappropriate sexual behavior as a fetish paraphilia. They’re acting out in very inappropriate ways due to their sex drive, so the doctors approved giving them blockers or estrogen as a way to lessen their sexual impulses. By keeping their sexual impulses under control, ideally they’d be less likely to commit sex crimes.
Against someone's will? No. If someone wants to and its 100% safe? Sure. The problem with denying AGP is fear of what you are. It causes you to lie, and living lies is the source of insanity. People see it. It makes them wary. Being honest about who and what you are allow you to live in a way that doesn't lead to insanity.
In terms of morals or ethics, I don't think a person is required to take it. It's not immoral to have AGP, so a person is no obligated to get rid of it if they can. Basically, that's because AGP doesn't affect other people. Other desires/conditions have potential to affect other people negatively, so you could argue for an obligation to get treatment there.
There might be a practical benefit to making that change, but that would be a matter of choice and not obligation. Similarly, someone who is really short could benefit practically by taking a pill to be normal height, but wouldn't be morally obligated to take it. However, you could even imagine some scenario, maybe you need to provide for your kids and can do that by being taller, where you can benefit others without harming yourself. You might argue that you are obligated to get the treatment in that case.
Curious to know then what does all of this come to when determining if someone is either AGP or has real Dysphoria?
I don’t think “AGP vs ‘real dysphoria’” is a helpful distinction.
@@RayAlexWilliams I wonder what would be a better distinction, because it seems like from many of the people who acknowledge AGP tend to see trans women into two types of categories. Those who have self attraction of being a women IE AGP. and those rare few who end up transitioning because for whatever reason they just feel pain presenting as their native sex.
If you had zero sexual excitement or interest. If for example you want to cut your skin off to cut your beard off, and a smooth face gives you zero pleasure or interest, just a cessation of pure pain, then you have non-agp gender dysphoria. Does this exist? Doubtful.
@@defennia Extreme AGP can cause body dysmorphia which is why it isn’t helpful to distinguish the two. At this stage, I don’t think we have an answer to your question since we can’t have honest conversations about AGP yet.
@@Laviudanegra16 Yeah, and I mean I'm not trying to transition, but I will consider it as a last resort. I'm just lucky I didn't get full on genital dysphoria and it seems to only come whenever I could potential get an erection
Finding sexual release from viewing yourself in the gender you identify with isn’t a fetish or kink lol also you have to consider some people (like myself) who experienced sexual trauma as children or young adults get aroused by positive stimuli because our brains have been rewired. I thought my transition was something like a kink or fetish because I would get physical signs of
Being turned on from merely thinking about being in a body I knew I needed. People are very complicated you can’t make blanket statements about people just because of your own experiences
Do you think it’s possible to convince an AGP they’re AGP? The one I know is wholly rooted in the idea that he is a woman. He cannot define woman, he simply *knows* that he is one.
The belief is not based in logic, but very strong emotions. My personal opinion is that it is not possible to convince an AGP with logic (at least not first). The narrative has to collapse via an emotional experience before the AGP can be open to logic.
Yes, I suspect you are right. Once the narrative of "I am a true, real, authentic woman and that is the true explanation for my entire life history" it becomes incredibly hard to break down that narrative without some deeply personal come-to-Jesus moment that shatters the epistemic bubble. Particularly when to be a trans woman in "good standing" with the community requires repeating the same dogmas about AGP being "pseudoscience." It is self-reinforcing group think.
Get him to accept that humans can't change s3x. Be prepared for a lot of ridiculous arguments about clownfish and inters3x conditions. Have patience and be persistent. Once he accepts that, you can work your way up to AGP.
@@ellisdunegan what shall "can't change sex" mean? With present technology a production of "the other" gametes can't be reached, but a majority of humanity is infertile, so that cannot be the deciding thing. All you "can't change sex" advocates ever brought up is arbitrary assuming. With the same justtification you can say a change of the majority of sex characteristics, which IS possible, can be seen as a sex change, despite a production of "the other " gametes is not reached.
@@miriamlana833 s3x organs are actual organs in the same way hearts and lungs and livers are organs. Imagine sewing two stomachs together to make a pair of lungs and saying "they can hold air so surely they can breathe." Or using intestines to make a brain and saying "because it looks like a brain it must be a brain and can think." You can't surgically change one organ into another. You just end up being a man with mutilated junk.
@@miriamlana833 what is your opinion on detransitioners? Men who stop taking estrogen go back to being ordinary men. Almost like they were men the whole time and they were only men taking exogenous hormones...
2:28 nope. NOT most
3:08 CAUSE ITS A MEME😂
17:46 i agree with whomever posted that 👏👏👏
If sex & gender are different concepts then autogynephillia is the biological reaction & gender euphoria is the mental/emotional one. They could easily happen at the same time but shouldn't be conflated as the exact same thing.
the self admitted AGP at 5:35 says he wants to be more attractive to males (hence why hes medically transitioning).... does that not make him HSTS? (gen q considering the sexuality seems to be an important aspect in categorization? at least from what i've gleaned so far)
Don't use "they" to refer to a single person. That's grammarphobic.
Singular they for an unknown person has existed for a while to save space instead of having to type his or her.
I will agree that using they for someone you know is silly.
Sensible look at a subject that is not well understood.
Why is there such objection to the framework of agp ?
It violates the sanctity of their constructed identity.
@@RayAlexWilliamsdo you have an opinion on whether the stronger factor here is the desire for social respectability or the desire to truly be a woman? Obviously both are at play, but I wonder which is more important. The former might change if society changes (becomes accepting of autoheterosexuality), but the latter is internal and probably wouldn't change for most. If the latter is the stronger motivation in the denial of agp, getting people who have this to accept it seems like a lost cause.
@@RayAlexWilliamsnot only that it’s because terfs call the agp like the word agp is synonymous with a creepy pervert porn addict and who wants to be recognized as that, thus the terfs and the unaware agps don’t even know what agp actually is
While I do admit that the responses on Reddit to this person were lacking understanding and care, there's a reason it's usually disregarded. The small amount of study that concluded it as a valid explanation was fraught with bias and lack of scientific rigor. Meanwhile, it's been overwhelmingly shown over and over again that gender dysphoria is a real and persistent phenomena shown in a large portion of the population. And further, that transition consistently leads to vastly improved outcomes for this demographic despite the challenges of transition itself.
But just take a step back for a second and think about what's being claimed in autogynophilia. Do we ever use this phrase for women who are turned on when looking themselves in the mirror? Or do we just consider that normal human behavior? What If she's a lesbian, and is attracted to women's bodies? If a lesbian, looking in the mirror and turned on by her own body isn't regularly called autogynophilia, then what exactly are we diagnosing here?
The point is, that trans women are hypersexualized to the point that any mention at all of any sort of sexuality is construed as the reason that they transitioned in the first place. If a trans woman is attracted to women, they're considered a predator in disguise. If a trans woman is attracted to men, they're considered a gay man who's confused. There's no way to have any sort of sexual desire and not be invalidated.
But I think this gets to a deeper problem with the entire framework. Calling it autogynophilia also perpetuates the notion that men are just interested in sex, which I don't think is accurate. The assumption is that the only reason a man would want to become a woman is because they're hypersexual. If it was truly about anything more than that, We would also have the phrase "autophalophilia", but we don't.
And so we do a disservice to both genders. Because we say that the only reason a man would ever want to transition is because of a perverted sexual desire. And then we also say, that a woman couldn't possibly do the same in the other direction, but that instead she must been deceived or tricked. It's very clear when we make these accusations of cause for transition, that we have locked ourselves into gender stereotypes and thrust those onto the very situations they're breaking free from them.
@@aaronakbar420 Oh a lot of transmen 100% fell into it from gooning to too much BL, Yaoi or gayporn, its just not talked about because nobody cares about transmen.
People will gladly award transmen the same shit treatment that men get, even high five them if they make it.
What you fail to recognize is that AGPs are not trans and transition will not help them, they need their penis to live out their fetish and once that is gone their male sexual desire is reduced to 0 from what little remained after the hormones.
Trans women and AGPs are 2 different things and treating them the same will harm both.
AGP is most evident in the self admissions of AGPs who have transitioned medically and surgically and reported what a mistake it was, many of them didnt survive long after.
Intersectionality is poison.
17:00 😂😂😂😂😂
Well done.
Can you have an AGP teenage phase , because i did (with boners) when dressing up as female. I believe i just grew out of it.
No, everything I’ve seen says it’s permanent, but things like wearing women’s clothes are less and less exciting over time because you just get bored of them.
That's weird af.
Trauma perhaps?
Thanks!
Appreciate you 🙏
5:47 there's a comment that seems kind to the poster before the comment below it.
That was Phil Illy, who wrote the book Autoheterosexual.
Ray you're perfect just how you are and don't ever forget that ♥ Thank you for talking about these things!
Why are you obsessed with talking about autogynephilia??? I NEED a DETAILED explanation
As a trans feminine person, there is a lot on this subject that I can say. I've done a lot learning and work since 2019, on HRT for 3 years now, and I can say that I dislike reality denial, intellectual dishonesty. I can't just say people don't have AGP experiences. I can, however, focus on myself, and understand my own motivations, and if AGP is one of them, dude still hasn't given me it's contact info on Discord so we can "bro" out. Thanks for reading.
autogynephilia is not a "thing", but a narrative. it exists as a narrative
AGP is a label to describe a specific kind of sexual attraction.
I'm autogynephilic. Are you suggesting that I'm wrong about my own sexual orientation?
That's not how words work.
It's in the DSM-5
@@phililly no. you are attracted to women and femininity. but unlike most heterosexual men, you don't separate your attraction to femininity and your self-image. but i don't think that's in itself a fetish or a paraphilia. but it can lead to fetishes, especially if you have no other way expressing your desired femininity. but seeing being transgender as a fetish is both harmful and factually wrong, and it's a political tool of anti-trans activists