You're most welcome! I hope its helpful. I would be curious to hear what you find regarding spring weight as it relates to suppressor use. I have had a mixed bag of results myself. Some like lighter springs, some like heavier.
Still not done with the vid, but just had to say fantastic work bud. Excellent explanations to refresh my long unused physics courses lol (i went the way of firmware)
Incredible job taking a confusing subject, often plagued by inaccurate information, and making the topic easy to understand. I now feel better equipped to tune my guns, thanks!
Loved the energy analysis! i think that it can take into consideration the energy lost as friction during the bullet's travel through the barrel, something that the more frequently encountered conservation of momentum analysis can not do.
I never really understand people cutting chunks of their slide out (and not adjusting anything else) and thinking it increases performance in some way.
I think you missed the equal and opposite reaction of the recoil spring against the firing hand, which would make the compressive load of heavier springs potentially feel like more recoil. At least in the 2011 world, most shooters seem to prefer the impulse of 9 and 10 lb springs over stock 12lb springs to increase slide velocity and reduce the "pushyness" of heavier recoil springs.
I agree a heavier recoil spring would likely contribute to more of a "push" in the hand. A lighter recoil spring will allow higher slide velocity. The slide will hit the rear of its travel harder creating more of a snap.
Yeah that was just an example to illustrate the effects of preload. But you're correct. It's good to make sure when changing spring that your new one doesnt close at full compression/maximum slide travel.
@@EngineersArmory overal, it’s the recoil impulse feel. Take a Glock 17 which has a 17 pound spring, change that to an 11 pound spring and go see how you like the feel of the recoil. See were your second round hits when shooting double taps
@@83tactical Ah gotcha. The lighter spring doesn't cause as much muzzle dip when the slide comes back into battery leading to quicker follow up shots. Slide also cycles faster. I have done a ton of reocil spring tuning on all sorts of pistols and i generaly like a bit lighter of a recoil spring than factory as well.
I have installed on my P10F Toni System 12 lb recoil spring end steel guide rod ( i guess the factory spring is 16lb) . It seems better shooter now (softer recoil). How do you see it in theory? Factory ammo S&B 124gr.
Lighter spring will increase slide velocity. I would expect ejection distance to increase. I would expect a little more snap as the slide comes rearward. The increased slide velocity means it will hit the rear of its travel harder, also leading to more muzzle flip. The slide will come back into battery softer with the lighter spring so I would expect less muzzle dip and a quicker return of the muzzle on target. There is a big part of recoil feel that is subjective. What feels better/softer to you may not to the next person. Thanks for watching and commenting!
Hello D , when tuning hammer fired guns ex czp09 .. please help explain how the hammer spring rate affects the initial barrel un lock and recoil impulse and muzzle flip ?
A heavier hammer spring will require more force to initially push back down while the slide starts traveling rearward and the barrel is unlocking. It may increase force required for the action to unlock, but the recoil spring controls the relationship of the slide to barrel and the actual unlocking action. In terms of overall recoil impulse and muzzle flip it shouldn't have any affect becuase when the hammer is in the fully cocked position it puts very little upward force on the bottom of the slide as it passes over the top. I have heard wildly different ideas about how the mainspring affects recoil. I have heard that if you change recoil spring weight you should also change mainspring weight to keep the "overall spring force" and "timing" of the barrel unlocking the same. I have also heard that it doesn't matter at all. Select a main spring that gives you the trigger feel and reliability of ignition you want, and tune the recoil spring based on ejection distance and feel. In my experience I agree more with the second idea. I put in whatever mainspring I want for my desired trigger action, then tune the recoil spring to my normal ammo and the ejection distance I want. I don't worry at all or consider how the mainspring affects my recoil impulse, the barrel unlocking, or ejection pattern. Great question! I'm no expert and thats just my thoughts based on my experience. Hope it helps! Here is a link to my favorite recoil spring tuning guide: cajungunworks.com/how-to-select-the-proper-recoil-spring/
Can you explain the correlation between recoil spring and firing pin spring? Too light recoil spring causes fail for RSA test and a out of battery malfunction. People counteract that problem with lighter firing pin spring, at least so that i read. For example i Have a glock 19 with compensator and a 15lbs recoil spring, i still get failure to feed, so i installed 13lbs recoil spring, now i failed RSA test and after the shot a Have out of battery malfunction. Hope you get the point, english isn’t my first language
I am not quite following you. Is "RSA" recoil spring assembly? The recoil spring and firing pin spring dont have anything to do with eachother. In a glock the firing pin spring is the striker spring. That really only controls how hard the firing pin/striker hits the primer. Too light a recoil spring can cause the slide to not return all the way into battery. The recoil spring only controls what happens after the round is fired. The firing pin spring controls the firing of the round before the recoil spring does anything. If someone puts in a lighter firing pin spring or striker spring in an attempt to still hit the primer when the gun is out of battery that is extremely dangerous and a terrible idea. Is that what you're asking? I hope this helps. Still a little unclear about your question.
@@EngineersArmory „Assuming you are using an OEM 5.5lb striker spring, you are going to need to change your striker spring to a weaker one if you reduce your recoil spring as these springs act in opposite directions and have to be balanced. The result, as you noted is an out of battery situation.” „A 13lb recoil spring isn't correct for an OEM G19. You want at least a 15lb if you are using the OEM striker spring. But if the gun is all stock, the OEM recoil spring is still the best. If you go to a lighter striker spring then a 13lb might work ok. But you are sacrificing reliability.” Big number of threads online and videos Incline correlation between those Two springs, and a out of battery malfunction. None of them are so in depth like your recoil springs video, thats why i asked this question. I dont understand it either
@@rafrac608 huh that's odd. I suppose the striker spring get partially compressed as the slide on a glock comes forward. But it's such a small amount, and a light spring in comparison to the recoil spring I have a hard time believing it makes a difference. I'm gonna ball BS on that one. I have changed recoil and striker springs so many times on glocks and never ever noticed a striker spring affecting the cycling of the slide. In a hammer fired gun the main spring has a very small affect on slide velocity because as the slide unlocks it also has to reset the hammer. I have heard people say if you drop recoil spring weight you should increase hammer spring weight and vise versa. Other say tune your recoil spring, main spring weight doesnt matter. That's how I feel about it. I've tuned recoil springs and installed different main spring on a lot of hammer fired guns and never noticed a difference in the slide cycling due to main spring weight. In theory it has an effect. In practice I dont think its enough to make a difference.
I wonder if anyone has an actual data calculator for determining spring weight or load based on each factor input ie: slide weight w/optic, barrel weight, load, comp, suppressor, etc...?
I wouldn't be surprised if someone has tried. That would be quite the undertaking. It would have to be unique to each gun as well as ammo types/loadings, etc. Two tilting barrel action pistols with the same slide mass may respond differently to recoil spring changes because of small differences like how far the barrel travels to unlock the action. I think it would have to be developed empirically. Someone has a gun set up a certain way and they report what spring works best for their setup. But then again what spring "works best" comes with a good deal of subjectivity. I may prefer my cases to eject 6 ft away while someone else thinks 3 ft away is good. Good question and good food for thought. I think it may be the most value to understand the basics of the pistol recoil spring system and see what you observe with your own setup then be able to say "its behaving in this way so I need a heavier spring."
@dltz Yes, it's always best to understand at least the basic concepts of what is going on with whatever it is you are doing. I was just curious if anyone actually has set up a simulation program for this application. The math is always constant, which is good. That's the foundation. Being able to measure the different parts accurately is the tricky part. Of course, the other things like air temp and altitude, surface friction (lubed or not, coating slickness), can have certain effects as well. A proper physics model would be cool to have, with different minor elements of the equation given a +/- margin of error factor if unknown or left out. In the meantime, it is easy enough to simply swap parts and have some fun trying the combinations out, or watch more of your videos. 👍
The white board is the most re-markable invention!
HA! Good one Dad!
Appreciated this upload! Getting ready to assess my Obsidian 45 on some .45, 10mm and 9mm pistols. Springs will absolutely come into play. Thanks much
You're most welcome! I hope its helpful. I would be curious to hear what you find regarding spring weight as it relates to suppressor use. I have had a mixed bag of results myself. Some like lighter springs, some like heavier.
Extremely under-rated and under the radar channel. Awesome content. Been binging your catalog of videos lately. Keep em coming.
Thanks so much! The kind words mean a lot to me. I'm glad you're enjoying the content - I plan on continuing to make it!
I love your channel. Keep going! Your content is amazing.
Still not done with the vid, but just had to say fantastic work bud. Excellent explanations to refresh my long unused physics courses lol (i went the way of firmware)
Much appreciated!
Just wanted to say I really enjoy this channel keep it up man
Really appreciate that man! Thank you!
Hell yeah love it! Thanks for the video!
Incredible job taking a confusing subject, often plagued by inaccurate information, and making the topic easy to understand. I now feel better equipped to tune my guns, thanks!
I'm so glad it was helpful! Thanks so much for the great feedback. Thats exactly what I was hoping to acheive.
Very cool😎
Good whiteboard breakdown. Easy to follow. Thanks!
Loved the energy analysis! i think that it can take into consideration the energy lost as friction during the bullet's travel through the barrel, something that the more frequently encountered conservation of momentum analysis can not do.
Thank you! Its always made the most sense to me that way!
Excellent job thank you so much
I never really understand people cutting chunks of their slide out (and not adjusting anything else) and thinking it increases performance in some way.
Leaving performance on the table.
I think you missed the equal and opposite reaction of the recoil spring against the firing hand, which would make the compressive load of heavier springs potentially feel like more recoil. At least in the 2011 world, most shooters seem to prefer the impulse of 9 and 10 lb springs over stock 12lb springs to increase slide velocity and reduce the "pushyness" of heavier recoil springs.
I agree a heavier recoil spring would likely contribute to more of a "push" in the hand. A lighter recoil spring will allow higher slide velocity. The slide will hit the rear of its travel harder creating more of a snap.
At about 10:00 you're talking about longer springs, but did not mention the potential of spring binding.
Yeah that was just an example to illustrate the effects of preload. But you're correct. It's good to make sure when changing spring that your new one doesnt close at full compression/maximum slide travel.
I run lighter recoil springs and I can feel a difference in recoil, lighter the spring the better.
What aspect of the recoil feel is "better" to you?
@@EngineersArmory overal, it’s the recoil impulse feel. Take a Glock 17 which has a 17 pound spring, change that to an 11 pound spring and go see how you like the feel of the recoil. See were your second round hits when shooting double taps
@@83tactical Ah gotcha. The lighter spring doesn't cause as much muzzle dip when the slide comes back into battery leading to quicker follow up shots. Slide also cycles faster.
I have done a ton of reocil spring tuning on all sorts of pistols and i generaly like a bit lighter of a recoil spring than factory as well.
*General audience pulling up a chair*
Heck yeah, let me know if its useful information!
I know you have a couple M90 videos if your gas tube front handguard retainer came loose how would you go about fixing
I have installed on my P10F Toni System 12 lb recoil spring end steel guide rod ( i guess the factory spring is 16lb) . It seems better shooter now (softer recoil). How do you see it in theory? Factory ammo S&B 124gr.
Lighter spring will increase slide velocity. I would expect ejection distance to increase. I would expect a little more snap as the slide comes rearward. The increased slide velocity means it will hit the rear of its travel harder, also leading to more muzzle flip. The slide will come back into battery softer with the lighter spring so I would expect less muzzle dip and a quicker return of the muzzle on target. There is a big part of recoil feel that is subjective. What feels better/softer to you may not to the next person.
Thanks for watching and commenting!
@@EngineersArmory thank you! 👍🏻
Hello D , when tuning hammer fired guns ex czp09 .. please help explain how the hammer spring rate affects the initial barrel un lock and recoil impulse and muzzle flip ?
A heavier hammer spring will require more force to initially push back down while the slide starts traveling rearward and the barrel is unlocking. It may increase force required for the action to unlock, but the recoil spring controls the relationship of the slide to barrel and the actual unlocking action. In terms of overall recoil impulse and muzzle flip it shouldn't have any affect becuase when the hammer is in the fully cocked position it puts very little upward force on the bottom of the slide as it passes over the top.
I have heard wildly different ideas about how the mainspring affects recoil. I have heard that if you change recoil spring weight you should also change mainspring weight to keep the "overall spring force" and "timing" of the barrel unlocking the same. I have also heard that it doesn't matter at all. Select a main spring that gives you the trigger feel and reliability of ignition you want, and tune the recoil spring based on ejection distance and feel.
In my experience I agree more with the second idea. I put in whatever mainspring I want for my desired trigger action, then tune the recoil spring to my normal ammo and the ejection distance I want. I don't worry at all or consider how the mainspring affects my recoil impulse, the barrel unlocking, or ejection pattern.
Great question! I'm no expert and thats just my thoughts based on my experience. Hope it helps!
Here is a link to my favorite recoil spring tuning guide:
cajungunworks.com/how-to-select-the-proper-recoil-spring/
Can you explain the correlation between recoil spring and firing pin spring? Too light recoil spring causes fail for RSA test and a out of battery malfunction. People counteract that problem with lighter firing pin spring, at least so that i read. For example i Have a glock 19 with compensator and a 15lbs recoil spring, i still get failure to feed, so i installed 13lbs recoil spring, now i failed RSA test and after the shot a Have out of battery malfunction. Hope you get the point, english isn’t my first language
I am not quite following you. Is "RSA" recoil spring assembly? The recoil spring and firing pin spring dont have anything to do with eachother. In a glock the firing pin spring is the striker spring. That really only controls how hard the firing pin/striker hits the primer. Too light a recoil spring can cause the slide to not return all the way into battery. The recoil spring only controls what happens after the round is fired. The firing pin spring controls the firing of the round before the recoil spring does anything. If someone puts in a lighter firing pin spring or striker spring in an attempt to still hit the primer when the gun is out of battery that is extremely dangerous and a terrible idea. Is that what you're asking? I hope this helps. Still a little unclear about your question.
@@EngineersArmory
„Assuming you are using an OEM 5.5lb striker spring, you are going to need to change your striker spring to a weaker one if you reduce your recoil spring as these springs act in opposite directions and have to be balanced. The result, as you noted is an out of battery situation.”
„A 13lb recoil spring isn't correct for an OEM G19. You want at least a 15lb if you are using the OEM striker spring. But if the gun is all stock, the OEM recoil spring is still the best.
If you go to a lighter striker spring then a 13lb might work ok. But you are sacrificing reliability.”
Big number of threads online and videos Incline correlation between those Two springs, and a out of battery malfunction. None of them are so in depth like your recoil springs video, thats why i asked this question. I dont understand it either
@@rafrac608 huh that's odd. I suppose the striker spring get partially compressed as the slide on a glock comes forward. But it's such a small amount, and a light spring in comparison to the recoil spring I have a hard time believing it makes a difference. I'm gonna ball BS on that one. I have changed recoil and striker springs so many times on glocks and never ever noticed a striker spring affecting the cycling of the slide.
In a hammer fired gun the main spring has a very small affect on slide velocity because as the slide unlocks it also has to reset the hammer. I have heard people say if you drop recoil spring weight you should increase hammer spring weight and vise versa. Other say tune your recoil spring, main spring weight doesnt matter. That's how I feel about it. I've tuned recoil springs and installed different main spring on a lot of hammer fired guns and never noticed a difference in the slide cycling due to main spring weight. In theory it has an effect. In practice I dont think its enough to make a difference.
@@EngineersArmory thank you very much for your answers 👍
@@rafrac608 you're welcome! Good question!
I wonder if anyone has an actual data calculator for determining spring weight or load based on each factor input ie: slide weight w/optic, barrel weight, load, comp, suppressor, etc...?
I wouldn't be surprised if someone has tried. That would be quite the undertaking.
It would have to be unique to each gun as well as ammo types/loadings, etc. Two tilting barrel action pistols with the same slide mass may respond differently to recoil spring changes because of small differences like how far the barrel travels to unlock the action. I think it would have to be developed empirically. Someone has a gun set up a certain way and they report what spring works best for their setup. But then again what spring "works best" comes with a good deal of subjectivity. I may prefer my cases to eject 6 ft away while someone else thinks 3 ft away is good. Good question and good food for thought.
I think it may be the most value to understand the basics of the pistol recoil spring system and see what you observe with your own setup then be able to say "its behaving in this way so I need a heavier spring."
@dltz Yes, it's always best to understand at least the basic concepts of what is going on with whatever it is you are doing. I was just curious if anyone actually has set up a simulation program for this application. The math is always constant, which is good. That's the foundation. Being able to measure the different parts accurately is the tricky part. Of course, the other things like air temp and altitude, surface friction (lubed or not, coating slickness), can have certain effects as well. A proper physics model would be cool to have, with different minor elements of the equation given a +/- margin of error factor if unknown or left out. In the meantime, it is easy enough to simply swap parts and have some fun trying the combinations out, or watch more of your videos. 👍