Thanks for the video Mani! I saw a short of Mori Ai trying out the grip strength tool recently. She pulled 38 kgs on it, which is a similar result to Adam and Magnus I suppose compared to their bodyweight.
Coming from powerlifting initially I found it interesting how climbers have a different concept of “strength”. For climbing, what people refer to as “strength” is more about efficiency, I think, than maximal force production-it’s about how your body weight and climbing technique interacts with how much force you can generate (but mostly maintain isometric contraction?). I‘d be quite curious to see how much maximal force production differs between rock climbing and strength sports that rely more on maximum grip force.
Well, I'd formulate it this way: In high end climbing, force spikes occur in the finger tips (and to some degree in the rest of the body, depending on how strong your finger tips are). Usually finger tip strength, which is what I call finger strength, is the limiting factor, of course divided by body weight. In high end strength sports, the force spikes occur in the whole hand "grip strength" style, AND in the rest of your whole body as well. Where exactly depends on the exercise. The hand is usually not the limiting factor when dead lifting up a bar for example, the legs and back are. It's rare in high end climbing, that legs and back are limiting factors.
@@ManitheMonkey Totally! Im sure there is some rather complicated kinematics going on behind grip strength. I should say, though, that grip strength is often a limiting factor in powerlifting, especially after a certain level. I had to do quite a bit of supplementary grip training to make sure I could lock out weights above 220kg or so without my grip slipping at the top of the lift. For that I did some max rack holds with 200-220kg, which is much heavier (ignoring differences in form/finger placement, as you said) than the kind of grip training I would do now that I switched to climbing. Interesting stuff!
Hiyas bro! Totally agree that using a grip trainer in crushing grip mode is useless, unless all the routes you climb are "telephone" holds. This is because that exercise has you pull your 4 fingers against your palm, which rarely is done in rock climbing. However, with a good grip strength trainer, there's more than one way to use it. I bought a massive, solid metal grip strength trainer based on the fact that its bars are nearly parallel, unlike normal trainers which are set at an angle. I bought it specifically to be able to "pinch" it with just the fingertips. If the bars aren't parallel, the pressure is going to be much harder on some fingers than the others. "Pinch" hold grip strength will definitely improve with this way of using the device, and these types of holds are very common both indoor and outdoor. Another exercise you can do for rock climbing is to brace the side of the device where you put your 4 fingers. You can do this against a table or something - the idea is for that side to be stable so that your thumb is the one pulling the bar toward your fingers, instead of the other way around. This strengthens your thumb for all sorts of crimps, as well as for the pinch grip. The thumb has it's own muscles, while the four fingers are powered by the forearm. They require different exercises to target them specifically.
Thanks for the input! But why not simply pinch different holds upside down on a hangboard or something? It would add some other climbing relevant muscles to the mix, and you could still track progress with bonus weight/weight taken off a scale.
@@ManitheMonkey This is a good idea! I'm definitely going to try this out in my training routine at the gym, but to answer your question - because I have a desk job and can just play around with the trainer while I'm on a call or something, so mostly a matter of convenience.
@@ManitheMonkey Using something like a gripper to train your thumb muscle through a ROM instead of a set static position will be way more time efficient then just grabbing different width holds and statically holding them. I just uploaded a quick Short to my RUclips account here showing a few quick ways you can use a gripper to get a really good thumb workout. The only real downside is the maximum width on the grippers isn't super wide so if you want to work on really wide pinches you would have to still work on that separately. Personally I have a home gym with a cable machine so I can use the cables to do an even wider ROM version of the gripper pinches. I can upload a quick video of this as well if people are interested. ruclips.net/user/shortsU9lrRwstDME
There's one study about tendon loads in crimp and slope grip positions that (fudged to the easier to remember numbers, i dont remember them) estimated a 2-1 fdp to fds ratio in a crimp and an equal ratio in a slopey grip, but fdp is smaller so its the big limiter. I still dont think it would hurt to have some training of the fds, i have an unconfirmed suspicion that a very well developed fds, since its so close to the fdp, may help with recovery for your fdp.
I'm not even 3 minutes in and you've already made a massive oversight. There are different techniques to that grip measuring device. You can use it by making a fist like the people in the video but you can also utilize it by only crushing it with your fingertips which is virtually identical to a half crimp from climbing. The same technical point stands for hand grippers. All grip training doesn't carry over to climbing but a ton of it can if you adjust your technique to replicate what you need to do on the wall. Unfortunately this video seems to be an example of the Dunning Kruger effect. Edit: after watching the video I can see that you gave credit to a couple of the grip tools. I would suggest you reconsider your opinion on hand grippers though.
No I think Mani is right. You basically never use a "crushing grip" in climbing. At least least in my case when I'm climbing the pulling force is coming from my arm, shoulders, and back, and I'm simply keeping tension in my fingers rather than actively pulling with them.
Thanks for the feedback, Apart from the fact that I never saw anyone "crush" the measuring device with fingertips, I can't even imagine how that would work in the hand, and how you would make results comparable, seeing as you'd have to define where "finger tip" starts/ends. Everybody just takes it as juggy as possible, which is pretty irrelevant for climbing, as I mentioned in the video. Some grip devices force you to use finger tips more, these are exactly the ones which have some relevance for climbing, as pointed out in the video. What do you mean with "hand grippers"?
@@ManitheMonkey 1. You just grip it with your fingertips. Also I don't just have similar results I am stronger using my fingertips than I am utilizing the technique shown that you're criticizing in this video. After about 5 months of grip training If you're having trouble picturing how you grip it it's literally just a half crimp. 2. The best reading I've gotten on that grip dynamometer was 224lbs with the technique I described. I'm not claiming superiority over either of the legends in this video I weigh 270 to 280 lb so while my total strength is above theirs my relative strength is far below theirs. Honestly I'm pretty sure that both of them would have scored substantially higher if they would have gripped it in the way I'm describing. The way that they were gripping it utilizes palm strength more than it utilizes finger strength. 3. Hand grippers are two pairs of handles joined by spring at the top that creates resistance relative to the strength of the spring that holds the handles together. (Look up captains of crush handgrippers if you want to see what they look like) Most hand grippers are not effective for climbing because they are too far apart for people with smaller hands to grip with the technique I described. With that being said if you choke the handles together to limit how far apart they can be, basically any hand gripper can be used in the way I described. Also, probably the best hand gripper to utilize in the way I'm describing is the "GD iron grip 90" because there is a built in mode that allows you to choke both the handles together. 4. I'm saying this because this is how I train hand grippers I used to climb years ago (I got up to a V7 at 240 lbs but averaged about V5) and the experience that I have on the wall is what informed how I utilized grip training tools. 5. The reason why I'm making this whole comment is because I genuinely believe that steel hand grippers when utilized correctly can be completely transformational for climbers when utilized similarly to hangboarding (only a few heavy max effort session once to twice a week.) and I thought it was a shame to see someone with influence in the community casting doubt on how effective they can be. I doubt that you'll follow up on this and that's okay I'm sure you're busy but if you want to see the technique that I'm talking about I would be happy to make a video showing you.
@@TheStrengthScholar Thanks for the detailed input! I am really be curious about your technique, make a video. If you can load your finger tips (of one hand) with over 100kg as you say, that is absolute elite finger strength, even amongst high end climbers (albeit your relative strength is low at your 270 to 280lbs body weight, as you correctly pointed out). I'd be curious how you perform on a standard hangboard then. Hangboards actually ARE transformational for climbing performance (if used the right way :) You should have no problems hanging the beastmaker 2000 side edges both handed, even with well over 100 lbs bonus weight (210lbs per hand x2 is 420lbs, - 280 body weight is 160lbs potential bonus weight). If you try it, do it on a well mounted hangboard... However, I predict you will have problems with that, because the numbers you pull on the dynamometer do not carry over that much to the climbing world, even if you use a special technique, which I have a hard time imagining. The isometric nature, and the weird location, the finger tip, just separate climbing from everything else. But hey, try it!
@@ManitheMonkey 1. Just to be clear I do think hang boards are the best tool for producing finger strength that carries over directly to the wall. I just think that hand grippers produce a similar stimulus and can be utilized before someone is able to hang unassisted on a hangboard and when a hangboard isn't available. 2. I do not own the grip dynamometer but I have a friend at my gym who has it. I will save this video and tag you in the video when I do it. I also don't think it's a one-to-one carryover on a hangboard. I would imagine after testing numerous climbers in the correct position you would be able to predict their hangboard performance though. 3. I also wanted to show you my technique for the hand grippers so you can see how they could carry over to climbing. I will upload a hand gripper PR next week(did hand grippers yesterday so I need time to recover.) and tag you in that as well. 4. I don't have a beast maker but I do have two small hangboard apparatuses with two edges. Do you know how deep the edge on the beast maker is so I can see if the one I have is adequate to test my grip on? 5. I've actually been meaning to upload grip content onto my channel so thank you for being the variable that spurred me to actually do it.
4:30 That’s BS, I don’t know where it even come from, as basically on any level you have variety of holds, including big jugs. It’s not so rare that ability to hang or pull yourself using one arms, basically unlocks new, easier beta.
TLDR: I think this topic partly suffers from a misconception which is pretty dominant in climbers/many coaches and their view on training. Climbing training, especially conditioning does not have to look like climbing, it does not need to use movements which resemble climbing movements as accurately as possible. If you hit the forearms in a way you’ve planned to be beneficial, you can use crushing grips. Your muscles dont care. I still think that these devices are pretty useless. But I think most of the conclusions why I see here are wrong. They just dont have any benefits over other methods (mostly barbells) you can use to train concentric muscle work of the forearm flexor muscles. In depth: Climbing is in a state right now where very good, evidence and sport science based training hasn’t been around for that long and is still in development. We generally suffer from the „But it doesn’t look like climbing/doesn’t do the same movement, so it can’t be useful“- misconception. I think we generally value „sports specific“ training too high, because we just use that term in the wrong way. As long as you hit the right body parts/structures and systems (anaerobic, aerobic, max strength, hypertrophy, power… you name it) you want to train rn it’s sometimes just better to use a method which doesn’t look like the sport at all. In this specific case (not saying that everything above is applicable here): You can train your forearms muscles by using a crushing motion. In some cases that is completely fine and useful for climbing (even though it doesn’t fit into typical climbing motions). Example: You could use these tools if you want to train the active contraction/active portion of finger strength (concentric forearm contraction fe pulling into a predominantly isometric position like the halfcrimp after catching something open hand) or want to do hypertrophy training for your forearms (fe as a building period before doing more traditional max strength exercises like hangboarding or edge lifts). Why could you use it? Because you want to hit the actively contracting muscle fibers of the forearms in these cases, with a specific goal in mind. And as long as that’s achieved, your forearm muscles don’t give a fck about how you’ve done that. The specific adaptation for climbing will be happening outside of the off the wall training anyway - on the wall. It lit doesn’t matter that much if you’ve done your off the wall training on a grip device (crushing motion), a barbell or a hangboard, sport specific adaptation will only come if you practice the sport. And no, hangboarding is not practising it. It’s hangboarding and has relatively little to do with the real thing (climbing) if you really think about it - just as a crushing grip device. Okay, that being said, I still think that you and the other contributing commenters here are kinda right, just mostly for the wrong reasons. As explained above, a training tool isn’t bad just because it uses „wrong“ motions for our sport. I just think that these devices are bad/waste of time because they’re not the best option for priming your forearm muscles in the way/ for the purposes I stated above during the example. A standard barbell does the job, has done it for years and does it better imo. That’s why I would never choose these devices. But you def could train for rock climbing with them.
From a purely hypertrophic and strength-building perspecive, you're probably right. It doesn't need to look like climbing. But I think you're wrong in saying that people generally have this misconception. For example, right now more than ever people are pulling from the ground when they train their fingers which is a far cry from looking like climbing, especially compared to hangboarding where you're at least hanging. What's more important though, is that all this discussion surrounding training has skewed it's importance relative to it's actual value for most climbers. Meaning that almost every climber could benefit from moving better or changing thier mindset a lot more than getting stronger. Because strength can only get you so far. The best climbers are strategists. So for most people, the best kind of training should look like climbing, because that's where they can stand to gain the most from in the long term, and that's where the bad habits arise.
@@heraclitus4884 I agree. But I would like to add a little nuance: the best kind of training should not LOOK LIKE climbing, it should BE climbing (with an intend or in a more structured way than „just climbing“) - That’s what I was going to. Nothing replaces the real thing. No matter how it looks like, it’s still off the wall strength training. And it’s way less important how applicable this off the wall training seems to be to climbing or not. It’s important to hit the right systems, spots, muscles and structures. And it’s way more important to climb more often than you just simply train whatever off the wall. Off the wall training does not have to mimic climbing because 1. it can’t (doesn’t matter if it’s pull ups, hangboarding or crushing grip devices) and 2. you have to climb anyways to apply whatever gained advantage to your climbing.
@@Noneymar1 Off the wall training doesn't have to mimic climbing but it still needs to be climbing specific. The reason why hanging from a small edge with added weight is considered by many to be more climbing specific than working out your forearm with a dumbell or a grip device is not because it looks like climbing but because it loads the involved muscle groups in a similar way. The main goal of this type of training is to create strength in that specific position and not to create hypertrophy. You are correct that hypertrophy in the forearms could be achieved with any training device but the strength in specific positions cannot be gained with any training device. In short crimping on a small edge off the wall has more carryover to crimping on a small edge on the wall than crushing a grip device. However of course that off the wall crimping is not a replacement for the real thing but rather supplemental. We use the hang board because it allows us to progressively load the fingers in a controlled manner with less risk which is much harder to do on the wall.
@@Baum17 that’s why I haven’t talked about isometric strength training fe at all? 1. I just said that you could use these devices or barbells depending on your training phase, training age and goals. Nothing you wrote there stands in opposition to my statement. I never said that you should do barbell work only if you want to make specific strength gains in the typical positions (isometric/slow eccentric failing positions/muscle work) I even said how you could use barbells AND more traditional methods. (I only take barbells as an example here cause I basically said that I would use them over grip devices every time) 2. But you still define „sport specific“ wrong/different than me I think. You don’t always need to load a muscle group the exact same way than it is loaded during sports practise. That’s not what almost every specific strength training is about all of the time. Gains in different loads transfer to another - that’s basically a core principle of modern s&c and climbing s&c isn’t any different. It’s totally fine to disobey a specific load sometimes and train less „sport specific“. Because doing that will sometimes give you more advantages than just being „sport specific“ all of the time. I could go on or more in depth but that’s too much for an internet debate. 3. I never specifically advocated for doing strength training on the wall btw, I actually practice and programm the opposite. When I talk about training on the wall I usually mean climbing with intend to apply strength gained (from any source) to your actual practiced sport - I dont want to disobey strength training for on the wall only and never said that. If you dont get what’s the difference between the two, we shouldn’t interact further cause it just leads to nothing. So you basically attacked/argued against points I never made OR you didn’t understand. Hope I cleared some misunderstandings now!
@@Noneymar1 To be clear, I agree on most of what you said and since I'm not a sports scientist my definition of sport specific might not be the most accurate. I just wanted to stress the point which I think still stands that loading a muscle in a certain way will transfer better to a certain sport than loading it in a another way.
This is mostly just about literally having a larger frame to put muscle on, and being used to carry more weight around as well cause you're heavier. Weight moves weight. That's why all those strongmen are well over 6 foot tall as well. There's a limit to how strong short people can get.
@@Citebafla That makes sense. I just thought at first somehow that this particular exercise doesnt really take advantage of being tall. But I mean if they can move more weight they also need to be able to have the grip strenght for it i guess.
Tall people are definitely stronger - on average - than short people, in absolute terms. Nevertheless short people are stronger - on average - than tall people, in relative terms, meaning adjusted for body weight, which is exactly what climbing is: Finger strength (and of course some other strengths) divided by body weight. Which is why most strong climbers are relatively short. However, since reach is also a quite significant factor, especially outdoors, where there's no human route setters, we will see taller climbers crush the very hard grades, who are able to carry extreme finger strength/body weight into longer reach.
True. Although tall people are on average stronger than short people in absolute terms, strength doesn't go up with more body weight as much as the body weight itself - which is why short people are stronger - on average - than tall people, in relative terms, meaning adjusted for body weight, which is exactly what climbing is: Finger strength (and of course some other strengths) divided by body weight.
![Chris Langan - The Interview THEY Didn't Want You To See - CTMU [Full Version; Timestamps]](/img/1.gif)
Thanks for the video Mani!
I saw a short of Mori Ai trying out the grip strength tool recently. She pulled 38 kgs on it, which is a similar result to Adam and Magnus I suppose compared to their bodyweight.
Thanks for the input!
Coming from powerlifting initially I found it interesting how climbers have a different concept of “strength”. For climbing, what people refer to as “strength” is more about efficiency, I think, than maximal force production-it’s about how your body weight and climbing technique interacts with how much force you can generate (but mostly maintain isometric contraction?). I‘d be quite curious to see how much maximal force production differs between rock climbing and strength sports that rely more on maximum grip force.
Well, I'd formulate it this way:
In high end climbing, force spikes occur in the finger tips (and to some degree in the rest of the body, depending on how strong your finger tips are). Usually finger tip strength, which is what I call finger strength, is the limiting factor, of course divided by body weight.
In high end strength sports, the force spikes occur in the whole hand "grip strength" style, AND in the rest of your whole body as well. Where exactly depends on the exercise. The hand is usually not the limiting factor when dead lifting up a bar for example, the legs and back are.
It's rare in high end climbing, that legs and back are limiting factors.
@@ManitheMonkey Totally! Im sure there is some rather complicated kinematics going on behind grip strength. I should say, though, that grip strength is often a limiting factor in powerlifting, especially after a certain level. I had to do quite a bit of supplementary grip training to make sure I could lock out weights above 220kg or so without my grip slipping at the top of the lift. For that I did some max rack holds with 200-220kg, which is much heavier (ignoring differences in form/finger placement, as you said) than the kind of grip training I would do now that I switched to climbing. Interesting stuff!
Hiyas bro!
Totally agree that using a grip trainer in crushing grip mode is useless, unless all the routes you climb are "telephone" holds. This is because that exercise has you pull your 4 fingers against your palm, which rarely is done in rock climbing.
However, with a good grip strength trainer, there's more than one way to use it. I bought a massive, solid metal grip strength trainer based on the fact that its bars are nearly parallel, unlike normal trainers which are set at an angle. I bought it specifically to be able to "pinch" it with just the fingertips. If the bars aren't parallel, the pressure is going to be much harder on some fingers than the others. "Pinch" hold grip strength will definitely improve with this way of using the device, and these types of holds are very common both indoor and outdoor.
Another exercise you can do for rock climbing is to brace the side of the device where you put your 4 fingers. You can do this against a table or something - the idea is for that side to be stable so that your thumb is the one pulling the bar toward your fingers, instead of the other way around. This strengthens your thumb for all sorts of crimps, as well as for the pinch grip. The thumb has it's own muscles, while the four fingers are powered by the forearm. They require different exercises to target them specifically.
Thanks for the input!
But why not simply pinch different holds upside down on a hangboard or something? It would add some other climbing relevant muscles to the mix, and you could still track progress with bonus weight/weight taken off a scale.
@@ManitheMonkey This is a good idea! I'm definitely going to try this out in my training routine at the gym, but to answer your question - because I have a desk job and can just play around with the trainer while I'm on a call or something, so mostly a matter of convenience.
@@ManitheMonkey Using something like a gripper to train your thumb muscle through a ROM instead of a set static position will be way more time efficient then just grabbing different width holds and statically holding them. I just uploaded a quick Short to my RUclips account here showing a few quick ways you can use a gripper to get a really good thumb workout. The only real downside is the maximum width on the grippers isn't super wide so if you want to work on really wide pinches you would have to still work on that separately. Personally I have a home gym with a cable machine so I can use the cables to do an even wider ROM version of the gripper pinches. I can upload a quick video of this as well if people are interested.
ruclips.net/user/shortsU9lrRwstDME
There's one study about tendon loads in crimp and slope grip positions that (fudged to the easier to remember numbers, i dont remember them) estimated a 2-1 fdp to fds ratio in a crimp and an equal ratio in a slopey grip, but fdp is smaller so its the big limiter. I still dont think it would hurt to have some training of the fds, i have an unconfirmed suspicion that a very well developed fds, since its so close to the fdp, may help with recovery for your fdp.
I'm not sure, but at the Olympics they measure in lbs and Magnus and Adam measure in kg. So 70+ kg are on a similar level as the gymnasts.
You're right, and I also said it in the video. 73kg is about 163lbs, which is a bit below the strongest gymnast in the short video with 171lbs.
I'm not even 3 minutes in and you've already made a massive oversight. There are different techniques to that grip measuring device. You can use it by making a fist like the people in the video but you can also utilize it by only crushing it with your fingertips which is virtually identical to a half crimp from climbing. The same technical point stands for hand grippers.
All grip training doesn't carry over to climbing but a ton of it can if you adjust your technique to replicate what you need to do on the wall.
Unfortunately this video seems to be an example of the Dunning Kruger effect.
Edit: after watching the video I can see that you gave credit to a couple of the grip tools. I would suggest you reconsider your opinion on hand grippers though.
No I think Mani is right. You basically never use a "crushing grip" in climbing. At least least in my case when I'm climbing the pulling force is coming from my arm, shoulders, and back, and I'm simply keeping tension in my fingers rather than actively pulling with them.
Thanks for the feedback,
Apart from the fact that I never saw anyone "crush" the measuring device with fingertips, I can't even imagine how that would work in the hand, and how you would make results comparable, seeing as you'd have to define where "finger tip" starts/ends. Everybody just takes it as juggy as possible, which is pretty irrelevant for climbing, as I mentioned in the video.
Some grip devices force you to use finger tips more, these are exactly the ones which have some relevance for climbing, as pointed out in the video.
What do you mean with "hand grippers"?
@@ManitheMonkey
1. You just grip it with your fingertips. Also I don't just have similar results I am stronger using my fingertips than I am utilizing the technique shown that you're criticizing in this video. After about 5 months of grip training
If you're having trouble picturing how you grip it it's literally just a half crimp.
2. The best reading I've gotten on that grip dynamometer was 224lbs with the technique I described. I'm not claiming superiority over either of the legends in this video I weigh 270 to 280 lb so while my total strength is above theirs my relative strength is far below theirs.
Honestly I'm pretty sure that both of them would have scored substantially higher if they would have gripped it in the way I'm describing. The way that they were gripping it utilizes palm strength more than it utilizes finger strength.
3. Hand grippers are two pairs of handles joined by spring at the top that creates resistance relative to the strength of the spring that holds the handles together. (Look up captains of crush handgrippers if you want to see what they look like)
Most hand grippers are not effective for climbing because they are too far apart for people with smaller hands to grip with the technique I described. With that being said if you choke the handles together to limit how far apart they can be, basically any hand gripper can be used in the way I described. Also, probably the best hand gripper to utilize in the way I'm describing is the "GD iron grip 90" because there is a built in mode that allows you to choke both the handles together.
4. I'm saying this because this is how I train hand grippers I used to climb years ago (I got up to a V7 at 240 lbs but averaged about V5) and the experience that I have on the wall is what informed how I utilized grip training tools.
5. The reason why I'm making this whole comment is because I genuinely believe that steel hand grippers when utilized correctly can be completely transformational for climbers when utilized similarly to hangboarding (only a few heavy max effort session once to twice a week.) and I thought it was a shame to see someone with influence in the community casting doubt on how effective they can be.
I doubt that you'll follow up on this and that's okay I'm sure you're busy but if you want to see the technique that I'm talking about I would be happy to make a video showing you.
@@TheStrengthScholar Thanks for the detailed input!
I am really be curious about your technique, make a video.
If you can load your finger tips (of one hand) with over 100kg as you say, that is absolute elite finger strength, even amongst high end climbers (albeit your relative strength is low at your 270 to 280lbs body weight, as you correctly pointed out).
I'd be curious how you perform on a standard hangboard then. Hangboards actually ARE transformational for climbing performance (if used the right way :)
You should have no problems hanging the beastmaker 2000 side edges both handed, even with well over 100 lbs bonus weight (210lbs per hand x2 is 420lbs, - 280 body weight is 160lbs potential bonus weight).
If you try it, do it on a well mounted hangboard...
However, I predict you will have problems with that, because the numbers you pull on the dynamometer do not carry over that much to the climbing world, even if you use a special technique, which I have a hard time imagining. The isometric nature, and the weird location, the finger tip, just separate climbing from everything else. But hey, try it!
@@ManitheMonkey
1. Just to be clear I do think hang boards are the best tool for producing finger strength that carries over directly to the wall.
I just think that hand grippers produce a similar stimulus and can be utilized before someone is able to hang unassisted on a hangboard and when a hangboard isn't available.
2. I do not own the grip dynamometer but I have a friend at my gym who has it. I will save this video and tag you in the video when I do it. I also don't think it's a one-to-one carryover on a hangboard. I would imagine after testing numerous climbers in the correct position you would be able to predict their hangboard performance though.
3. I also wanted to show you my technique for the hand grippers so you can see how they could carry over to climbing. I will upload a hand gripper PR next week(did hand grippers yesterday so I need time to recover.) and tag you in that as well.
4. I don't have a beast maker but I do have two small hangboard apparatuses with two edges. Do you know how deep the edge on the beast maker is so I can see if the one I have is adequate to test my grip on?
5. I've actually been meaning to upload grip content onto my channel so thank you for being the variable that spurred me to actually do it.
4:30 That’s BS, I don’t know where it even come from, as basically on any level you have variety of holds, including big jugs. It’s not so rare that ability to hang or pull yourself using one arms, basically unlocks new, easier beta.
who the hell is Eve Corvelle? tried a bunch of spellings that might be close to what you said, but can't find anything.
😂 Yves Gravelle, YT/Inst
TLDR: I think this topic partly suffers from a misconception which is pretty dominant in climbers/many coaches and their view on training. Climbing training, especially conditioning does not have to look like climbing, it does not need to use movements which resemble climbing movements as accurately as possible. If you hit the forearms in a way you’ve planned to be beneficial, you can use crushing grips. Your muscles dont care. I still think that these devices are pretty useless. But I think most of the conclusions why I see here are wrong. They just dont have any benefits over other methods (mostly barbells) you can use to train concentric muscle work of the forearm flexor muscles.
In depth:
Climbing is in a state right now where very good, evidence and sport science based training hasn’t been around for that long and is still in development.
We generally suffer from the „But it doesn’t look like climbing/doesn’t do the same movement, so it can’t be useful“- misconception. I think we generally value „sports specific“ training too high, because we just use that term in the wrong way. As long as you hit the right body parts/structures and systems (anaerobic, aerobic, max strength, hypertrophy, power… you name it) you want to train rn it’s sometimes just better to use a method which doesn’t look like the sport at all.
In this specific case (not saying that everything above is applicable here):
You can train your forearms muscles by using a crushing motion. In some cases that is completely fine and useful for climbing (even though it doesn’t fit into typical climbing motions).
Example: You could use these tools if you want to train the active contraction/active portion of finger strength (concentric forearm contraction fe pulling into a predominantly isometric position like the halfcrimp after catching something open hand) or want to do hypertrophy training for your forearms (fe as a building period before doing more traditional max strength exercises like hangboarding or edge lifts).
Why could you use it? Because you want to hit the actively contracting muscle fibers of the forearms in these cases, with a specific goal in mind. And as long as that’s achieved, your forearm muscles don’t give a fck about how you’ve done that. The specific adaptation for climbing will be happening outside of the off the wall training anyway - on the wall. It lit doesn’t matter that much if you’ve done your off the wall training on a grip device (crushing motion), a barbell or a hangboard, sport specific adaptation will only come if you practice the sport. And no, hangboarding is not practising it. It’s hangboarding and has relatively little to do with the real thing (climbing) if you really think about it - just as a crushing grip device.
Okay, that being said, I still think that you and the other contributing commenters here are kinda right, just mostly for the wrong reasons. As explained above, a training tool isn’t bad just because it uses „wrong“ motions for our sport. I just think that these devices are bad/waste of time because they’re not the best option for priming your forearm muscles in the way/ for the purposes I stated above during the example. A standard barbell does the job, has done it for years and does it better imo. That’s why I would never choose these devices. But you def could train for rock climbing with them.
From a purely hypertrophic and strength-building perspecive, you're probably right. It doesn't need to look like climbing. But I think you're wrong in saying that people generally have this misconception. For example, right now more than ever people are pulling from the ground when they train their fingers which is a far cry from looking like climbing, especially compared to hangboarding where you're at least hanging.
What's more important though, is that all this discussion surrounding training has skewed it's importance relative to it's actual value for most climbers. Meaning that almost every climber could benefit from moving better or changing thier mindset a lot more than getting stronger. Because strength can only get you so far. The best climbers are strategists. So for most people, the best kind of training should look like climbing, because that's where they can stand to gain the most from in the long term, and that's where the bad habits arise.
@@heraclitus4884 I agree. But I would like to add a little nuance: the best kind of training should not LOOK LIKE climbing, it should BE climbing (with an intend or in a more structured way than „just climbing“) - That’s what I was going to.
Nothing replaces the real thing. No matter how it looks like, it’s still off the wall strength training. And it’s way less important how applicable this off the wall training seems to be to climbing or not. It’s important to hit the right systems, spots, muscles and structures. And it’s way more important to climb more often than you just simply train whatever off the wall. Off the wall training does not have to mimic climbing because 1. it can’t (doesn’t matter if it’s pull ups, hangboarding or crushing grip devices) and 2. you have to climb anyways to apply whatever gained advantage to your climbing.
@@Noneymar1 Off the wall training doesn't have to mimic climbing but it still needs to be climbing specific. The reason why hanging from a small edge with added weight is considered by many to be more climbing specific than working out your forearm with a dumbell or a grip device is not because it looks like climbing but because it loads the involved muscle groups in a similar way. The main goal of this type of training is to create strength in that specific position and not to create hypertrophy. You are correct that hypertrophy in the forearms could be achieved with any training device but the strength in specific positions cannot be gained with any training device. In short crimping on a small edge off the wall has more carryover to crimping on a small edge on the wall than crushing a grip device. However of course that off the wall crimping is not a replacement for the real thing but rather supplemental. We use the hang board because it allows us to progressively load the fingers in a controlled manner with less risk which is much harder to do on the wall.
@@Baum17 that’s why I haven’t talked about isometric strength training fe at all?
1. I just said that you could use these devices or barbells depending on your training phase, training age and goals. Nothing you wrote there stands in opposition to my statement. I never said that you should do barbell work only if you want to make specific strength gains in the typical positions (isometric/slow eccentric failing positions/muscle work)
I even said how you could use barbells AND more traditional methods. (I only take barbells as an example here cause I basically said that I would use them over grip devices every time)
2. But you still define „sport specific“ wrong/different than me I think. You don’t always need to load a muscle group the exact same way than it is loaded during sports practise. That’s not what almost every specific strength training is about all of the time. Gains in different loads transfer to another - that’s basically a core principle of modern s&c and climbing s&c isn’t any different. It’s totally fine to disobey a specific load sometimes and train less „sport specific“. Because doing that will sometimes give you more advantages than just being „sport specific“ all of the time. I could go on or more in depth but that’s too much for an internet debate.
3. I never specifically advocated for doing strength training on the wall btw, I actually practice and programm the opposite. When I talk about training on the wall I usually mean climbing with intend to apply strength gained (from any source) to your actual practiced sport - I dont want to disobey strength training for on the wall only and never said that. If you dont get what’s the difference between the two, we shouldn’t interact further cause it just leads to nothing.
So you basically attacked/argued against points I never made OR you didn’t understand. Hope I cleared some misunderstandings now!
@@Noneymar1 To be clear, I agree on most of what you said and since I'm not a sports scientist my definition of sport specific might not be the most accurate. I just wanted to stress the point which I think still stands that loading a muscle in a certain way will transfer better to a certain sport than loading it in a another way.
Why exactly should tall guys be automaticly stronger?
This is mostly just about literally having a larger frame to put muscle on, and being used to carry more weight around as well cause you're heavier. Weight moves weight. That's why all those strongmen are well over 6 foot tall as well. There's a limit to how strong short people can get.
@@Citebafla That makes sense. I just thought at first somehow that this particular exercise doesnt really take advantage of being tall. But I mean if they can move more weight they also need to be able to have the grip strenght for it i guess.
Tall people are definitely stronger - on average - than short people, in absolute terms.
Nevertheless short people are stronger - on average - than tall people, in relative terms, meaning adjusted for body weight, which is exactly what climbing is: Finger strength (and of course some other strengths) divided by body weight.
Which is why most strong climbers are relatively short.
However, since reach is also a quite significant factor, especially outdoors, where there's no human route setters, we will see taller climbers crush the very hard grades, who are able to carry extreme finger strength/body weight into longer reach.
Back. The summer is hottest hot. I like it.
ma man I wondered where you've been!
🔥
🤙
well when you climb pinches its relevant
True, to some extent, as mentioned in the video.
u think you could get 100k subs, you’re nearly there
subs don't matter, views do, nevertheless I'm willing to try it (:
if you delete the weight classes then it will be unfair to the bigger guys since you're automatically relatively weaker when heavier
True. Although tall people are on average stronger than short people in absolute terms, strength doesn't go up with more body weight as much as the body weight itself - which is why short people are stronger - on average - than tall people, in relative terms, meaning adjusted for body weight, which is exactly what climbing is: Finger strength (and of course some other strengths) divided by body weight.