While some might find the 'obsessing' over genetics and morphology somewhat weird, I greatly appreciate it. We should talk openly about the role of weight, genetics, and morphology in climbing. Aspiring climbers are going to realize that these are huge factors anyway. But it's important to teach the details. For instance, the catastrophic consequences of maintaining very low weight for the vast majority of people. Being as lean as Toby, while performing at this level is a fortunate combination of circumstances and not necessarily a realistic objective for anyone for instance (as you correctly pointed out in the video).
True. Obsessing over it is not necessary, but I find knowing about it is important. It is rarely talked about because it seems to be taking away credit from all the hard work & training they put into their fitness, which is of course still amazing and admirable. BUT not everybody (only very very few) will end up in a spot like this, even if they'd work harder. That's why we need & have good talent scouts.
True that. Genetics is definitely an important indicator of success in top athletes. Top athletes win on by the smallest margins and how you're built tremendously helps you in climb. And of course, you also need hard work and superior smarts to achieve top spots in sports.
Always great to hear an Austrian talk about genetics 😂 juuuuuust kidding. It's actually great because they did an analysis of reporting on athletes and apparently they call black athletes genetically gifted while they call the white ones hard workers. Like Phelps has a crazy ape index too yet nobody talks about it
This is actually stupid! Genetics means nothing compared to hardwork. Genetics are only expressed based on environmental stimulus. Toby Robert’s would not have such long arms and massive brachioradialis if he hadn’t been climbing more than 75% of his life starting before puberty. Don’t you wonder why younger climbers perform better at elite levels? It’s because they don’t have the weight of an adult man yet and can have a better strength to weight ratio. There is nothing Toby can do to stop himself from getting worse at climbing. His body will inevitably change.
@@stellar9553 I think your comment is stupid. Look at all the "older" climbers who still get better and better at climbing. And you just wouldn't know if Toby would have shorter arms if he hadn't climbed before puberty. Maybe (actually probably) his arms would be exactly the same length if he hadn't climbed a day in his life - it's called genetics...
Important to point out that Toby peak of strength is revealed not on the wall but when putting his shoes, amazing athlete, can't fathom the true extent of his power, shoes are the real challenge.
Interesting review. The thing that struck me, the first few times that I saw him competing, is that Roberts is someone who's had to work really hard at developing the dynamic side of his climbing. I don't think that it comes naturally to him in the same was as it does for say Sorato or Schalck. The fact that he's had to learn to struggle with this has helped him, I think.
In fact, video makes you look "normal". Due to a less optimal resolution than reality, which video always will have, our mind fills out what we cannot see with "normal". Short people become taller, overly tall people will become shorter. Bad resolution pics of not so pretty people will become prettier. And when we see the real we're often disappointed because reality does not match with what we expected.
I always find it annoying when people say "there's no ideal bodytype in climbing" when there's very much a cleat trend among top level climbers to be average to slightly below average height and of a very slight frame. Yeah you can be a bigger person and climb hard in certain styles but to be a successful competition climber especially there's definitely an ideal bodytype, and even for outdoors the heaviest v16 boulders like Jimmy Webb and Matt Fultz only weigh high 70's low 80s kg and so far I don't think anyone over 70kg has climbed v17.
Great video as always! The muscle length that you're referring to is called the "muscle belly" and where it end at the tendon is the insertion, the remaining length is the insertion length. The insertion point and length can have a significant impact on strength and power output.
What makes Sorato so good in your opinion? It seems like Toby has the morphology going for him, what do you think is the thing that Soratu has going for him that makes him so good? I feel like we will se a duel between those two guys a lot in the next couple of years... and it will be legendary ;)
the screenshot where you analyze his forearm is taken with a wide-angle lens. that means the picture is distorted, especially at the edge of the picture, where his forearm is.
Interesting analysis, especially in light of Toby beating Sorato again at Koper 2024 (lead). But I had a look at all the comps where both Toby and Sorato have competed, and this is the tally so far: For boulder, Sorato has a much better track record - he performed better than Toby 9 times. Toby has only beaten him twice, at Seoul 2023 and Brixen 2023. For lead, Toby has beaten Sorato five times now (but Sorato has beaten him 4 times). In the combined format, Sorato and Toby had the same lead score in the finals for Bern 2023. But Sorato had a slightly better boulder score. But in the Olympics, Toby had a better lead score and Sorato had a better boulder score. Is it not fair to conclude that Sorato's morphology might be more advantageous for boulder, whereas Toby's morphology is better suited for lead?
Speaking of the most energy efficient, flowy climbing style... You should do a review of Sam Avezou's lead WC win from last year! One of the most flowy climbs I've seen in competitions, almost Jain Kim-esque but quicker!
What do you think why is Jakob Schubert still able to outperform these young phenoms? He is in his 30s and still not slowing down at all. What makes him so special besides obviously his tyroian stubbornness refusing to let go of a hold? ;) He looks pretty normal in his body proportions but I can imagine he can tolerate being very lean exceptionally well since he always is trim af.
Instead of calling it genetics I think it would be more accurate to call it predisposition since the phenotype of overall body morphology or muscle composition is always a product of the interaction of your genetics and your surroundings even at baseline without specific training. The Greeks called it hexis.
Calling it genetics doesn't mean that the interaction with the environment isn't relevant, that is already assumed for a sport where people train for. That's what I mean when I say we can just call it genetics since no one argues that's all there is to it, but it does determine the outcome greatly
@@meneerjaap Of course genetics determine outcomes but not in the simple way that you seem to suggest. If you take two versions of Toby Roberts and one of them grows up in a basement with improper nutrition while the other one has to work on a farm while eating lots of nutritious food then the resulting phenotypes will actually differ. Probably both outcomes will not be ideal for competition climbing. So my point is not that training has an effect but that the baseline even before training is a predisposition that is a product of genetics AND surroundings. I would argue that most people seem to assume genetics is a simple input output formular rather than a complex interaction of genes and surroundings. If this isn't the case then my point might be moot but still calling it predisposition would be more accurate than genetics.
Not necessarily in comps, because human setters will always try their best to avoid problems which select for certain lengths (in other words, set problems which select for the average length of their competitors, seeing as it is impossible to set a climbing problem which doesn't select for any length at all, which is another intrinsic problem of climbing comps. As a setter myself I can tell you that it's a lot easier to set a problem that's easier for tall people, than setting a problem that's easier for short people. Nevertheless, as long as there's good setters, in comps anything is possible.). But outdoors, because rock gives very little damn about catering to the short, we should see that morphologies like Toby's dominate, especially on the very hard grades (and especially on lead I think we see it already. The reason why shorties are still going strong in outdoor bouldering is that they can achieve freakish finger strength/body ratios).
@@ManitheMonkey rock truly does give no damns. Do you think that you could do a similar type of video for Janja? Although her style of climbing is extremely different to that of Toby’s, their body proportions are quite similar.
Mani, what do you think about bone structure? Especially narrow vs wide wrists. Strongman competitors and heavy lifters usually have wide bones. This allows them to put on more muscles (bigger frame). How about climbers? Big bones = more weight, but on the other hand you can have more meat attached to your forearms.
Strongly disagree with your statement on his biceps (and the gap with the elbow). He has a short biceps, which mean less strength potential, which is not a good thing in climbing.
Toby is also 2 years older than Sorato, who is a mere 17 years old. That's years of experience and mental training that Sorato may catch up to. Toby's climbing style is hard to watch. 😅 Sorato has beautiful flow and body control. Toby peaked better for Paris as well.
Maybe it is in my head, but comparing him now with him on his wikipedia page, he became a lot skinnier. And that is not called genetics, that is called starvation. He might have a perfect body to climb today. But I am not sure he will manage to keep on going like that. Some people make it somehow. Some others don't. Maybe because of genetics. We will see in 4 years if he is still number one or number two in the competition circuit.
@@constanceelaine3909 Cool, we need more remote analyses of random people on someone's health via watching them on the screen and never having met them in person 👏
@@masterpropper2485 :D my guess is he "starved" a bit to perform better at the comp. which is completely normal and fine and done in like every other sport. mani did it aswell in some of his older videos. and to calm you down, most athlets will get to their "normal" form after the comp - because you perform and train better when you are not malnoutrishend in the longterm.
@@TheValinov exactly, and this is what is dangerous and can negatively affect health and permormance longevity. This is particularly dangerous for women competitors. @masterpropper2485 in case you have never heard of REDS - look it up and inform yourself
So, I know this isn't the point of the video but.... those yellow stains at the sides of your mouth are surprisingly prominent to the point of distraction. Have you just stuffed yourself with Twisties? Did you just have a pumpkin soup? Is this some medical issue causing this?
tbh, this video is a bit silly if you think about perfect morphology genetics in climbing as you compare 2 individuals with quite different proportions and they both excel in the highest level of the sport (indoor comp climbing). Even when you compare outdoor climbing there is quite a bit variety in body sizes among the very best, although the vast majority are between 170-180 cm range, with a few exceptions. One common denominator is the leanness, not a single one is over 12% body fat I would estimate
@@qweasd9153 you disagree and then you say "the vast majority are between 170-180 cm range" which is a total agreement and you follow it up with a second.
He's not bragging. He's old and has a child and he doesn't like dynamic climbing... It is sad.. and it's sad for him too but that's life.. gotta make the best of it
1.77m actually is "tall". People nowadays get obsessed about being 1.90m ... Who wants to be 1.90m??? You take up a lot of space, you need a lot of fuel, you need biiig clothes, biiig shoes, biiig everything. And most likely you are not as in control of your limbs as a 1.70m guy would be. It's a stupid trend... probably driven by stupid women 😂
@@masterpropper2485 178cm is average in my country. i am just saying this because i am of course tall, and 177cm is short in my perspective. and yes, climbing is waaaay easier when you are at about average height, especially when you are as tall as the route setter. i can't speak about women loving tall guys, because im ugly, but being short is defenitively a disadvantage in dating. a huge problem.
Find someone to thirst after you like Mani thirsts after Toby
😅
While some might find the 'obsessing' over genetics and morphology somewhat weird, I greatly appreciate it. We should talk openly about the role of weight, genetics, and morphology in climbing. Aspiring climbers are going to realize that these are huge factors anyway. But it's important to teach the details. For instance, the catastrophic consequences of maintaining very low weight for the vast majority of people. Being as lean as Toby, while performing at this level is a fortunate combination of circumstances and not necessarily a realistic objective for anyone for instance (as you correctly pointed out in the video).
True. Obsessing over it is not necessary, but I find knowing about it is important. It is rarely talked about because it seems to be taking away credit from all the hard work & training they put into their fitness, which is of course still amazing and admirable. BUT not everybody (only very very few) will end up in a spot like this, even if they'd work harder. That's why we need & have good talent scouts.
True that. Genetics is definitely an important indicator of success in top athletes. Top athletes win on by the smallest margins and how you're built tremendously helps you in climb. And of course, you also need hard work and superior smarts to achieve top spots in sports.
Always great to hear an Austrian talk about genetics 😂 juuuuuust kidding. It's actually great because they did an analysis of reporting on athletes and apparently they call black athletes genetically gifted while they call the white ones hard workers. Like Phelps has a crazy ape index too yet nobody talks about it
This is actually stupid! Genetics means nothing compared to hardwork. Genetics are only expressed based on environmental stimulus. Toby Robert’s would not have such long arms and massive brachioradialis if he hadn’t been climbing more than 75% of his life starting before puberty. Don’t you wonder why younger climbers perform better at elite levels? It’s because they don’t have the weight of an adult man yet and can have a better strength to weight ratio. There is nothing Toby can do to stop himself from getting worse at climbing. His body will inevitably change.
@@stellar9553 I think your comment is stupid. Look at all the "older" climbers who still get better and better at climbing.
And you just wouldn't know if Toby would have shorter arms if he hadn't climbed before puberty. Maybe (actually probably) his arms would be exactly the same length if he hadn't climbed a day in his life - it's called genetics...
Excellent insights/analysis. Thanks for the content
Thanks Mani great analysis! I agree totally
Thanks for the feedback!
Important to point out that Toby peak of strength is revealed not on the wall but when putting his shoes, amazing athlete, can't fathom the true extent of his power, shoes are the real challenge.
Interesting review. The thing that struck me, the first few times that I saw him competing, is that Roberts is someone who's had to work really hard at developing the dynamic side of his climbing. I don't think that it comes naturally to him in the same was as it does for say Sorato or Schalck. The fact that he's had to learn to struggle with this has helped him, I think.
Interesting point, I didn't know that about him, but given his morphology it would make total sense.
Funny that you say that video makes you look taller. I met Chris Sharma once and I was actually surprised at how tall he was.
In fact, video makes you look "normal". Due to a less optimal resolution than reality, which video always will have, our mind fills out what we cannot see with "normal". Short people become taller, overly tall people will become shorter. Bad resolution pics of not so pretty people will become prettier. And when we see the real we're often disappointed because reality does not match with what we expected.
I always find it annoying when people say "there's no ideal bodytype in climbing" when there's very much a cleat trend among top level climbers to be average to slightly below average height and of a very slight frame. Yeah you can be a bigger person and climb hard in certain styles but to be a successful competition climber especially there's definitely an ideal bodytype, and even for outdoors the heaviest v16 boulders like Jimmy Webb and Matt Fultz only weigh high 70's low 80s kg and so far I don't think anyone over 70kg has climbed v17.
nice video. hab davor noch nie so richtig über die genetische Komponente nachgedacht
Fascinating analysis
Thanks!
Great video as always! The muscle length that you're referring to is called the "muscle belly" and where it end at the tendon is the insertion, the remaining length is the insertion length. The insertion point and length can have a significant impact on strength and power output.
Klang fast wie eine Liebeserklärung für Toby 😂Spaß bei Seite, das war ne echt gute Analyse 🙏 danke
genetics might be great for him, but also training 6 days a week for 7-8 hours a day might help aswell.
Yeah that’s insane but I think even there you need good genetics to handle this massive training stimulation
You obviously have to have ti kind of all, to be an Olympic champ
What makes Sorato so good in your opinion? It seems like Toby has the morphology going for him, what do you think is the thing that Soratu has going for him that makes him so good? I feel like we will se a duel between those two guys a lot in the next couple of years... and it will be legendary ;)
Very high finger strength/body weight, paired with outstanding dynamicness, aim & contact strength, basically what I call "dexterity" in the video.
How would you compare Toby to Kai Lightner? Is Kai too tall in your opinion or does he get benefits from his proportions that even Toby doesn't?
the screenshot where you analyze his forearm is taken with a wide-angle lens. that means the picture is distorted, especially at the edge of the picture, where his forearm is.
I agree.
Interesting analysis, especially in light of Toby beating Sorato again at Koper 2024 (lead).
But I had a look at all the comps where both Toby and Sorato have competed, and this is the tally so far:
For boulder, Sorato has a much better track record - he performed better than Toby 9 times. Toby has only beaten him twice, at Seoul 2023 and Brixen 2023.
For lead, Toby has beaten Sorato five times now (but Sorato has beaten him 4 times).
In the combined format, Sorato and Toby had the same lead score in the finals for Bern 2023. But Sorato had a slightly better boulder score. But in the Olympics, Toby had a better lead score and Sorato had a better boulder score.
Is it not fair to conclude that Sorato's morphology might be more advantageous for boulder, whereas Toby's morphology is better suited for lead?
Speaking of the most energy efficient, flowy climbing style... You should do a review of Sam Avezou's lead WC win from last year! One of the most flowy climbs I've seen in competitions, almost Jain Kim-esque but quicker!
What do you think why is Jakob Schubert still able to outperform these young phenoms? He is in his 30s and still not slowing down at all. What makes him so special besides obviously his tyroian stubbornness refusing to let go of a hold? ;) He looks pretty normal in his body proportions but I can imagine he can tolerate being very lean exceptionally well since he always is trim af.
People that obsess over genetics are absolutely annoying.
Instead of calling it genetics I think it would be more accurate to call it predisposition since the phenotype of overall body morphology or muscle composition is always a product of the interaction of your genetics and your surroundings even at baseline without specific training. The Greeks called it hexis.
So.... genetics 😅
I think I've explained the difference, haven't I?
Calling it genetics doesn't mean that the interaction with the environment isn't relevant, that is already assumed for a sport where people train for. That's what I mean when I say we can just call it genetics since no one argues that's all there is to it, but it does determine the outcome greatly
@@meneerjaap Of course genetics determine outcomes but not in the simple way that you seem to suggest. If you take two versions of Toby Roberts and one of them grows up in a basement with improper nutrition while the other one has to work on a farm while eating lots of nutritious food then the resulting phenotypes will actually differ. Probably both outcomes will not be ideal for competition climbing. So my point is not that training has an effect but that the baseline even before training is a predisposition that is a product of genetics AND surroundings. I would argue that most people seem to assume genetics is a simple input output formular rather than a complex interaction of genes and surroundings. If this isn't the case then my point might be moot but still calling it predisposition would be more accurate than genetics.
Genetics AND surroundings, you are absolutely right. And Mani here, is discussing the genetics part of it.
Do you think that as climbing grows as a sport all the top competitors will have a morphology like Toby's?
Not necessarily in comps, because human setters will always try their best to avoid problems which select for certain lengths (in other words, set problems which select for the average length of their competitors, seeing as it is impossible to set a climbing problem which doesn't select for any length at all, which is another intrinsic problem of climbing comps. As a setter myself I can tell you that it's a lot easier to set a problem that's easier for tall people, than setting a problem that's easier for short people. Nevertheless, as long as there's good setters, in comps anything is possible.).
But outdoors, because rock gives very little damn about catering to the short, we should see that morphologies like Toby's dominate, especially on the very hard grades (and especially on lead I think we see it already. The reason why shorties are still going strong in outdoor bouldering is that they can achieve freakish finger strength/body ratios).
@@ManitheMonkey rock truly does give no damns.
Do you think that you could do a similar type of video for Janja? Although her style of climbing is extremely different to that of Toby’s, their body proportions are quite similar.
Mani, what do you think about bone structure? Especially narrow vs wide wrists. Strongman competitors and heavy lifters usually have wide bones. This allows them to put on more muscles (bigger frame). How about climbers? Big bones = more weight, but on the other hand you can have more meat attached to your forearms.
Strongly disagree with your statement on his biceps (and the gap with the elbow). He has a short biceps, which mean less strength potential, which is not a good thing in climbing.
9:40 his arms aint alien, look at the lady next to him, the finger tips aint as close to the knee, as hers is.
Toby is also 2 years older than Sorato, who is a mere 17 years old. That's years of experience and mental training that Sorato may catch up to.
Toby's climbing style is hard to watch. 😅 Sorato has beautiful flow and body control. Toby peaked better for Paris as well.
I'm anti Toby Roberts: short legs, long torso, short arms and short in general 🥲
Maybe it is in my head, but comparing him now with him on his wikipedia page, he became a lot skinnier. And that is not called genetics, that is called starvation.
He might have a perfect body to climb today.
But I am not sure he will manage to keep on going like that.
Some people make it somehow. Some others don't. Maybe because of genetics. We will see in 4 years if he is still number one or number two in the competition circuit.
I agree completely . He looks underweight. That weight is tricky- he can easily tip into medical issues
@@constanceelaine3909 Cool, we need more remote analyses of random people on someone's health via watching them on the screen and never having met them in person 👏
@@masterpropper2485 :D
my guess is he "starved" a bit to perform better at the comp. which is completely normal and fine and done in like every other sport. mani did it aswell in some of his older videos. and to calm you down, most athlets will get to their "normal" form after the comp - because you perform and train better when you are not malnoutrishend in the longterm.
@@TheValinov exactly, and this is what is dangerous and can negatively affect health and permormance longevity. This is particularly dangerous for women competitors. @masterpropper2485 in case you have never heard of REDS - look it up and inform yourself
So, I know this isn't the point of the video but.... those yellow stains at the sides of your mouth are surprisingly prominent to the point of distraction.
Have you just stuffed yourself with Twisties? Did you just have a pumpkin soup? Is this some medical issue causing this?
could be genetics
The belayer is a woman, yes.
An austrian obsessing about perfect genetics... Sus lol
tbh, this video is a bit silly if you think about perfect morphology genetics in climbing as you compare 2 individuals with quite different proportions and they both excel in the highest level of the sport (indoor comp climbing). Even when you compare outdoor climbing there is quite a bit variety in body sizes among the very best, although the vast majority are between 170-180 cm range, with a few exceptions. One common denominator is the leanness, not a single one is over 12% body fat I would estimate
@@qweasd9153 you disagree and then you say "the vast majority are between 170-180 cm range" which is a total agreement and you follow it up with a second.
Meanwhile Adam ondra bragging about His 211 - 9a route completed but Zero gold medal.
He's not bragging. He's old and has a child and he doesn't like dynamic climbing... It is sad.. and it's sad for him too but that's life.. gotta make the best of it
calling 1,77m tall 😅🙈
1.77m actually is "tall". People nowadays get obsessed about being 1.90m ... Who wants to be 1.90m??? You take up a lot of space, you need a lot of fuel, you need biiig clothes, biiig shoes, biiig everything. And most likely you are not as in control of your limbs as a 1.70m guy would be. It's a stupid trend... probably driven by stupid women 😂
@@masterpropper2485 178cm is average in my country. i am just saying this because i am of course tall, and 177cm is short in my perspective. and yes, climbing is waaaay easier when you are at about average height, especially when you are as tall as the route setter. i can't speak about women loving tall guys, because im ugly, but being short is defenitively a disadvantage in dating. a huge problem.
Mani can still out climb Toby