Watching you land in water over and over and not automatically hold the trigger down to refill it awakened something primal and dark inside of me. Is this what it feels like to be an angry internet commenter??
Tbh I think Sunshine aesthetically looks much better than Odyssey. It has many more darks that draw out bright and saturated colors, the locations and direction are far far more consistent, the environments feel far more handcrafted where Odyssey felt like EVERYTHING was a game asset, and it's less lathered in crap like bloom that drowned out many parts of Odyssey or lamely-placed particle effects.
For an Gamecube game, Sunshine looks absolutely gorgeous. It may not be THE best looking game on the GameCube nor it's not as stunning as later 3D Mario games does better honestly. But still looks amazing to this day & an heck of alot better than 64 personally.
What about the original arcade Mario Bros? And I'd argue that just because Mario has access to water at all times doesn't mean he ever does any actual plumbing.
I think those are the people that would appreciate a game like mario sunshine the most. A relaxing, tropical escape to help cope with the struggles you go through as a kid.
i agree that sunshine = life, oddessey is the worst desighned mario game because of so much FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLERFILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER and yes i need to copy and paste it to prove my point ;)
You know, I guess I never thought Sunshine seemed rushed until I really thought about it, and the biggest area that shows a lack of polish is some of the physics. The way slopes can make Mario jitter when he slides up or down them, the durian's frustrating soccer ball collision, Pachinko machine, clipping through platforms, and lag during the final boss. What I find surprising, is that despite how much Sunshine can frustrate me, and after I admitted to myself it's very flawed (due to your reasoning), I still consider it one of the best, and my personal favorite, 3D Mario games ever, and i gotta say, for being rushed, the game manages to be a dang fun experience.
Damn, someone really doesn't like those secret levels. I personally love them and feel they don't take away from the game at all. I just treat them like a level warp to a different dimension.
Chris Kerr I love sunshine, but I don’t like most of the secret levels. The freakin pianta village secret level! My god! My blood boils just thinking about!
Completely agree! I was showing my friend SMS for the first time ever the other day and the first secret level we hit was mindblowing for him! I love the secret levels, and I think it's exciting and natural that they are in separate dimensions and present the hardest challenges of the game.
I am three minutes into the video. I had blocked out that Sunshine commercial. It is now back, along with reruns of Courage the Cowardly Dog. I hate you with all my love.
The coolest thing about Sundhine's soundtrack is that every main level theme is derived from the same melody. Yet, they're so different an unique from each other, that it took me years to notice they were the same leitmotif. And I _am_ a music person, unlike King K. This was the video that helped me notice that nifty detail.
Are they all derived from the same melody? I hear Delfino Plaza, Bianco Hills, Ricco Harbor, and Gelato Beach sharing a leitmotif but I can’t hear it in Pinna Park, Sirena Beach, Noki Bay, Pianta Village, or elsewhere.
I'm replaying the game rn so I'll get back to you on that. It could be they're based on their own melody, as these levels(excluding the Pianta) are the Noki residences. Pianta Village does't have so much of a melody, as the others, but it could possibly be designed to mesh with the others. Interesting stuff overall.
I've always loved how I've felt like I can understand the place that mario is in and kinda get teleported in. Jolly roger bay seems chilly, like the oregon coast. Super Mario Sunshine does the same for me. It's always been a nice place for me to go and just enjoy. It's a laid back game, and I'll always love it. It's the vacation I've never had.
I just have to say that in Bianco Hills, you actually can skip the first shine. If you just walk past the shine after killing the goop piranha, Petey is on top of the windmill ready for you to take him on. But I think that's the ONLY instance throughout the game where it's like this.
Most of the levels are like this actually, often there are multiple shines available at the same time. I think his rant was more about getting kicked out after collecting one of them. For example, have you ever accidentally hit a shadow shine (one that you’d already collected)while going for a different one? Having to start over is the worst.
See, the main problem of the game, is that the word "sunshine" has 2 syllables, while "Galaxy," "64," and "Odyssey" have 3 syllables. Unnacceptable naming scheme Nintendo.
This was a great watch. Sunshine definitely has a charm that few games can match, and iconic moments like the waterslide corridor at the start of bianco. I might be a little biased, but I believe that Sunshine also has the best technical control of any game when you really master the nuance of spinjumping combined with how many movement options it has with the addition of FLUDD. While secret levels do feel disjointed from the main game, it's sort of a staple for Mario games to have these purely platforming levels, and I think they are a great addition that add extra challenge to the game (Odyssey had even more of these). That being said, the secret levels within Delfino plaza do seem much more out of place, and some people even believe they are dev/testing levels left into the game. Sunshine DEFINITELY could've been a better game if the requirement for Corona was shine-count based rather than specific shine (ep. 7s) based, so you really hit the nail on the head with that. There really was so much missed potential, and I always wonder what a game with better level design and Sunshine's movement would be like. Also, I gotta say that's the highest quality footage I've seen of the "Clean is Better than Dirty" commercial I've ever seen LOL.
Man, if only we could get a Mario Sunshine 2 on the Switch with lots of new areas and secret levels in Delfino, along with removing the boot-out system. I really enjoyed Odyssey not booting the player out of the level, and it's a great game in its own right, but I absolutely love the "immersion" (as Kingk puts it) that Sunshine creates with its world and music. I also love mission based moons rather than the slightly less worth moons in Odyssey. If we could just get Isle Delfino + new content for the Switch I could die happy.
Proper video gaming started in my life with the Gamecube (my first "system" was a Game Boy Color but that's limited hardware so I don't really count it). Sunshine was 1 of only 4 games I played for hours and hours.... as cheesy as it may sound, it was a powerful influence in my life simply because of how immersive it was. I easily disconnected from reality and lost myself in Isle Delfino with its colors, its music, its relaxing atmosphere, its variety, etc. These days I don't game much apart from a few occasional sessions on PC. But (and hopefully I'm not the only one who feels this) if a Sunshine 2 was put into production I wouldn't hesitate to buy a Switch just for that game.
On the topic of the aesthetics and consistency of the level design: This was achieved all the way back in Ocarina of Time, and Majora's Mask to a greater extent. For example, in Majora's Mask 3D, you can see Stone Tower from Romani Ranch, and you can see the mountains from Great Bay, which from the mountains you can see Stone Tower covered in fog.
Now if only each chapter actually felt like a new experience instead of mostly a retread... Super Mario Galaxy is the only game where I don't mind being booted out. There's a very clear 3-level structure to each galaxy, with less retreading, and the comet missions are meant to be distinct moments in each galaxy so it makes sense why you can't complete them without having to leave and re-enter. Plus, it's only 3 levels along with 3 more bonus levels (4 in Dust Dunes' case). There were more per world in Sunshine because it only had 7 worlds. I just wish some of the secret stars didn't boot you out.
I wanna congratulate you on a job well done with this one. I know memes and just the conflicting opinions that this game brings up made it harder to write on, and I really feel that you did an even more comprehensive job with this than you did on 64. Your passion for the elements that Sunshine does well is captivating and so believable, and your turn on its more negative aspects goes from reluctant to your normal, excellent, thorough criticism. Not to say that your other videos don't do this, but it's SO strong here. Sunshine has always been hard for me due to an element you didn't mention: its narrative. As stupid, failed, and hilariously poorly acted as it is, Sunshine's narrative is a massive part of its structure, and is probably the element I think that Sunshine rolled with the most as a direct expansion of 64. Narrative was getting more popular and important in games, grandpa Miyamoto was only suggesting things rather than directly overseeing the project so his "narrative doesn't matter that much" mentality let the Sunshine team kinda just roll with it, the princess DOESN'T GET KIDNAPPED AT THE VERY START AND IS AN ACTUAL CHARACTER... KINDA. A LITTLE. SHE SAYS THINGS OTHER THAN THANK YOU. This is reflected in Sunshine's level structure - Mario can't leave until he "cleans up all that ugliness", he CAN'T just collect shines because that doesn't solve the problem of the game. It's actually not an element I thought of until you brought it up with every eighth chapter being a celebration and I went "... oh yeah, huh." It's CLEARLY to the game's detriment, but it's also a bit strange of a problem to fix. Odyssey had a similar feeling with the "save the world" requirement, where you could just ditch a kingdom after getting so many moons without beating the boss, and it made returning to them feel really weird and game-y, killing that immersion dead, which is even more important in Sunshine. I honestly think it's just a flawed focus, but... eh, I mean, at least there's a reason for it? Still, thank you so much for this. It's fascinating to hear a take on the special levels that wasn't "THEY WERE THE BEST PART AND GALAXY MADE THEM THE WHOLE GAME GALAXY IS SO GOOD" that was so, so prevalent from Galaxy's release until... basically Odyssey, really. You made me think of concepts like Bloopers Vs the Turbo Nozzle that I'd just kinda taken for granted and not even considered before. This is a good one.
Yeeeeeeeeeaaaaaah...as much as I respect Miyamoto, he seriously needs to be kept on a shorter leash. Like, I get that he has a VERY old-fashioned approach to game design, and to give credit where it's due, it works incredibly well for him when the game is designed with that mindset from the beginning. Unfortunately, the man also has his dark side, and said dark side comes in the form of being overprotective of the Mario franchise. He has a nasty habit of declaring from on high that *HE* knows what's best and anyone who dares challenge his wisdom is an incompetent fool. However, the reality is, Miyamoto is starting to show his age, and absolutely refuses to adapt to the times. He's still designing games like it's 2003! And this wouldn't bother me so much if it didn't seem like he's also constantly turning a deaf ear to criticism both from his colleagues and the executives! Like, the man's a genius, but his arrogance has been beyond detrimental to many of the projects he's worked on!
pyrrhickong Seems like you're commenting all his videos and this is interesting to read both your opinion and the opinion of KingK. In my childhood, the games I played and enjoyed the most were Billy Hatcher and Super Mario Sunshine. Because of Nostalgia, I think that I granted too much credit to Sunshine. This is true that with the time I couldn't convince myself to play it again but I also couldn't admit its flaws. I kept saying that it was one of the best games I played. It may be true as I didn't play that much games but I also can't keep being so narrow-minded. I loved the last part of the video talking about the mess in one's head know if it is or it is not a good game. I should definetly replay it and get and answer once for all.
The secret levels in mario sunshine were my favorites. They were always so much fun for me. I didn't notice as a kid... at first. It took me many hours to realize that I had a smile in my face every time I died while playing the secret levels. Those levels were like the training ground for galaxy, and in my opinion, it's much better than the usual sunshine gameplay... sadly. Because I love the environment, music, etc... in Delfino island.
I feel like it was a good mesh. I wouldn't say it was "better," but definitely different and more difficult. I never noticed a lack of immersion, either
i wouldn’t say better, but i personally do prefer the special stage gameplay and design. i just like the pure platforming and challenge in different objects and moving geometry
That sense of immersion is also my favorite thing about the game, and really the only reason I ever go back to it. But another collectathon that does that better is the first Jak and Daxter, which is why it's my personal favorite collectathon. Everything in the game is connected without load times, so your immersion is never broken.
I find the special courses a lot like a mysterious hidden area you might find while exploring. Imagine for a moment that you're a kid who's having fun on a beach. You look over to the left and see that there's this section of the beach that barely anyone seems to hang around. Out of curiosity you go there, and you realise that the beach ends at this large cliff face that has a pile of rocks resting at its bottom. The rocks seem to snake around the edge of the cliff to who knows where. Being the cheeky little bugger you are, you climb on the rocks and make your way around the cliff face, and suddenly you see that, while it's small, there's another part of the beach. In the middle of this sectioned off land of sand, you find a small house made of wood. It looks sturdy enough and it looks/sounds empty, so you make your way inside and explore it for a little while, stumbling upon a cooler in one of the rooms. You open it, and find a can of coke that has a sticky note on it saying "Congratulations". It's a door in a building you never see open, a draw in your grandma's place you're never able to search, a treasure chest in the sand. The whole of Delfino Island is public property, and you can easily see that with all the buildings and attractions the place has. The platforming is very natural like King K said. But, once you've entered the special course, you're in a secluded place. Suddenly, you're a short fat Italian man jumping around on an obsticle course that defies all logic, in a place that shouldn't even exist. A world, that's specifically tailor made just for you, only to be seen, by your eyes.
Too bad the game figuratively and literally points you to where the special courses are. Kinda takes away some of the fun and immersion by going like "Hey! Over here!".
"I find the special courses a lot like a mysterious hidden area you might find while exploring" Well then why does the game just straight up show you were they are? God the mission structure in this game is so bad...
@@k-leb4671 It ain't bad. If the game didn't tell you where the secret was, it'd be a much more frustrating time trying to find the secret in the first place. I kinda get where you're coming from and it could be done better, but at least this way it gets to the point
I've always admired the world of Sunshine. I think it's excellent that it takes a single setting and yet manages to craft a world with many diverse locales despite their relative proximity. You'd expect levels to feel samey but somehow they managed to make each one wholly distinct. It's all believable and I find it strange that they didn't decide to make the game fully interconnected with no level selects at all, because that would work perfectly with Isle Delfino's layout. Obviously, not every game has to be like this, but the ones that do really stand out. I haven't actually played Sunshine, so I can't comment on the gameplay or such else, so I'll leave my comment here at the 15 minute mark. Otherwise, I'm sure the rest of the video is great and I'm glad you managed to get it over and done with. Hopefully people won't nag you incessantly about the next one *ahem* and I look forward to whatever it is you do next, be it KH2, SMG or something else entirely.
and eat SO much fruit. funnily enough one of my fondest memories of the game was developing a STRONG craving for chocolate vanilla swirl ice cream after playing through the opening sequence of Delphino Plaza. something about the entire game just makes me hungry.
I feel like you have a tremendously weird and skewed view of the way Nintendo develops games and sequels. Nintendo has always created games by first asking the question “what can we do now that we couldn’t do before?” And then building an entire game around it. In the case of sunshine, it was the concept that the GameCube could do water mechanics better than any console on the market. It’s not a coincidence that Sunshine, Windwaker and Waverace all have to do with water and manipulating water. So it’s false to assume that Nintendo was sitting around thinking up what the sequel to Mario 64 was going to be and they decided on a jet[ack “gimmick” to pretend it’s a new game. The water mechanic was the entire game. Mario came second. The fiction in Nintendo games is almost entirely irrelevant. They come up with a game concept first and add in the fiction later.
Twilight Princess seems like a stark contrast to that. It didn't really do anything new, but then again that was the one time Nintendo just gave the fans what they demanded. Otherwise Zelda as a whole is the perfect example.
@@timwinterhalter5233 That's exactly what TP is in both good and bad ways. It's the ultimate culmination of the traditional formula and excellent because of it. On the other hand it's the ultimate culmination and nothing more, bringing nothing new to the table beyond Tears of Light (which do not enhance the gameplay at all) and horseback sword fighting which is barely used outside a few admittedly awesome boss fights. TP is the one time Nintendo just gave people what they wanted leaving a game that is both perfected and lack luster in a way that only a Nintendo franchise could be. Zelda has always been pushing design forward, TP didn't do that, choosing instead to perfect the existing design.
24:07 Playing on emulator ey? In case it makes you feel any better, the theme in the special stages is explained. It's supposed to represent Bowser Jr.'s toy box (he's still a kid after all) brought to live by his Magic Paintbrush.
Sunshine was even more fun to control than 64, the setting was fresh and inventive, the levels were fun to run around in, the graphics were bright and colorful and still manage to look pretty nice over 15 years later even with the obvious technical limitations, and the soundtrack never gets old despite most of the soundtrack being different versions of the same tune. But pretty much everything else about the game feels like it's actively trying to sabotage itself.
Sorry but I can't agree about it being fun to control: spraying things with FLUDD is awkward and you have to fight the camera constantly to aim it. One can learn to do it proficiently, but never have I seen somebody struggle with controls in a Mario game-except people trying to kill the piranhas in the first few shines of _Sunshine._ I have seen more people struggle with those controls than not.
Sarah sonar when do you have to fight the camera. It gives you complete control over it at all times. You can just as easily set the camera behind you with one of the shoulder buttons as well.
Grigori Rasputin1990 sunshine was never a failure and is considered by many to be a good game. Also sales don’t make a game good. If that was the case then games like sonic 06 would be great. You’d have to have pretty low standards to consider Mario 64 one of the greatest games of all time. It’s not even the best Mario game or 3D Mario game.
Sunshine is in an same category with 64. Sunshine does some things better than 64. But at the same time, 64 does some things better than Sunshine. They had there pro & cons. None of them are the best 3D Mario games. But there still fun.
I remember waking up bright and early as a kid on the weekends, and running to my GameCube to play Mario sunshine. I always thought the water looked so life like, I would spend time just swimming around lol. This has always been my favorite game, and brings me great sense of nostalgia every time.
I love your take on this game. I have hundreds of hours poured into it and your part about the music is exactly why I love this game so much. It reminds me of simpler times. Cool summer nights during middle and highschool. Its my happy place
Since you brought up movie licensed collectathons, and this isn't even a meme at this point: Battle for Bikini Bottom was miles ahead of its contemporaries by including a pause-menu warp system for each spatula (power-star) and a world structure that told a small narrative by not kicking you out of the stage each time. Goo Lagoon (its own beach level) went beach -> giant sand castle -> cave system -> amusement park -> and back to the original beach to finish off the quest teased at the start of the level.
Personally, I like the special secret levels. A break from the exploration feel for some good ol' fashioned platforming. Also I would say the changes in the world is a fair excuse for the boot outs, and the death boot outs (while this doesn't apply to all of them) in order to force a reset of the world so you're not locked into the level with an uncompletable objective. Granted, there are better solutions, but sunshine did have a short development time afterall if I recall correctly.
I agree. There was another analysis of this game, by ExoParadigmGamer I believe, and he argued that it's actually good that those secret levels are in their own little secret areas of the world. Mario 64 tried to incorporate those really difficult old-school platforming elements into the main levels, and it created a really frustrating experience a lot of the time, whereas Sunshine does a great job of giving you both the old school platforming and the more modern 3d exploration environment without trying to mash them together into the same space. I like the Sunshine approach much more than the M64 approach.
I remember my first encounter with this game was playing a demo of it at walmart and being blown away by it. It's probably one of the games that really made me a fan of video games as a kid. that and Smash bros.
Honestly, I was expecting just another generic Sunshine review when going into this, and I wasn't really expecting anything to be said that would really make me question my current stance on the game. Personally, it's one of my favorite Mario games ever, and even one of my favorite video games of all time, but this video brought up a lot of interesting points that I had never even thought of, and now I think I know where I stand on this game. Good job, KingK.
My immersion was never broken getting booted out of a painting after every star. I always considered myself in Peach’s castle, but just inside one of the paintings. So the locations make sense the same way real pictures in peoples houses do.
Wow I have to say you really covered this game in what, to me, feels perfect. I've always connected to how you articulate your feelings towards video games, but this really resonated with me. It had been so long since I've played it I never realized how much the game was at war with itself over what it wanted to be.
It is even easier than you thought the "poison bubbles" actually heal Mario during the eel tooth cleaning. Edit: Sorry It has been brought to my attention that while the poison does refill your breath meter allowing you to stay down there longer it does still damage Mario's overall health.
Great Job on this vid. It feel like it was a real struggle to put your thoughts together on this one (Although you explicitly said so, in past updates). I congratulate you for sorting that out, It probably was a ton of work and I think it shows. Never played Sunshine but I love how you showed it to me and that will always be what I like about your work : Your way of explaining your thoughts, the way you word them, the freakin soothing voice. Great work. Sunshine if finally done and I hope you are proud of it.
You might like the music because it is a very similar leitmotif (notes and melodies for gelato beach, the hub world, bianco hills, rico harbor are almost identical) but the instruments (timbre), tempo, and rhythm are changed based on the setting. It makes the music seem familiar, but different at the same time.
Towards the end of video where you explain how repetitive the levels and bosses are is absolutely hilarious and really articulates the true feelings of a gamer having to deal with aimless repetition during a game, good or bad, might I add.
I think an unintentional stroke of brilliance with this game's level design, was the fact that they had a jetpack in mind when designing everything. So trying to play the game without using the jetpack gives you an incredibly challenging and unique platforming experience, that really gives you a stronger appreciation for how they built Mario's moveset in Sunshine. Combine that with the lack of a cinematic pre-programmed camera like Mario 64, and you have a very fun and unique experience.
you’re pretty much on point about how annoying being booted from a course can be. I’ve been replaying Sunshine and have zero desire to turn in the blue coins I've collected.
i enjoy the breaks and linearity afforded by the boot-outs and, well, linear structure. me, as a child, would feel overwhelmed in a negative way if i was given that much open space. i always feel uncomfortable playing botw, for instance. there's no punctuation, which means that to my mind, nothing matters. i feel like these subjective emotions are often neglected in the discussion of what makes "good" game design. there's not a single video game i play where i don't yearn for the little breathing rooms and cutscenes. i love those.
Evan Hamilton yeah, most of odyssey felt like doing a collection quest from a Ubisoft game the whole time. The best parts are when you actually have a clear mission to complete
@@linksgrandma25 at least you don't have to horribly designed missions that take eons to complete. and instead get to play at your own pace and only do what you find to be enjoyable
This was my first Gamecube game, as it came with it as a bundle when I received my first gamecube. Thanks to Ocarina of time, I had always thought the word serenade was wholly water related. Therefore, when I would use the spin jump or spin on the ground and using Fludd to attack enemies or sludge, I would always scream "Spiralling Serenade!!" I miss being 10 lol
i grew up with that toy story 2 game. i never thought id see any game talker person mention it ever, so this kinda made my day. cheers friend, your discussions on games are always superb
Ah yes many songs I like in games take me back to the very moment I first experienced them or experienced them most memorably. Indicentally, the sax from Ricco harbor and gelato beach is what inspired me to join band and play alto sax in middle school
The rant about secret stages was pretty annoying to me. Did anyone else not care in the slightest that it supposedly "breaks the immersion"? I didn't care before watching this video, I didn't care while watching it, and I still don't care. There are many flaws in design that SMS has and the secret stages being in the middle of nowhere literally doesn't matter at all to me.
Considering this is an opinionated review clearly the reason it was elongated was due to the fact that at Sunshine’s core the only reason that he was enjoying it at all was due to its immersion and vibes attained from it and ruining that consecutively caused a detriment to his experience. You can say it’s “annoying” and that you “didn’t care” but without having more evidence to back up your opinion unlike what he has done then you are coming across as ignorant and at least not acknowledging the very game breaking problems that cause people to hate SMS.
"immersion" is the only complement this doofus can give this trainwreck, so of course after he turns on the fan and has ocean tides playing in the background every time he fires up this game and one of those special stages comes up and destroys the illusion that he is indeed outdoors, he hates it. The secret stages were the only redeeming part of this game. In trying to make you feel like you were crippled without FLUDD, the developers instead showed you just how useless it was, and how much its inclusion turned this from a Mario game to a really boring cleaning + flight simulator combo.
Yep. There are so many terrible shines in this game (pachinko, river of death, watermelon festival, eely mouths dentist, the roller coaster boss, the shadow mario ones etc.) the stupid boat riding, terrible camera, and anything involving yoshi top off this turd sundae... the two fun nozzles are hardly used. And mario is so twitchy, 0-60 in an instant. I didn't mind the beach theme, but theres so many bad things about this game, yet everyone seems to love it for God only knows why
Yeah, I saw a 45min video on Sunshine and said 'great...this should be good.' But now I'm 10min in and I keep hearing about how Mario64 was 'disconnected' and how he wants to 'continue to explore' vs. 'being expelled from the level.' I think what we wants is to have Mario games be Zelda games.
So long as Miyamoto is part of Nintendo it'll probably never happen, yes ik 3d all stars is a thing but that just up the graphics and removed gamecube controller support.
Something I don't think that gets noted often enough about Sunshine is it's improved level design over 64: Virtually every level in 64 was either explictly linear, or was a sandbox, but still had most of it's platforming elements designed along a linear pathway with not much else to do. By contrast, Sunshine;'s stages, while still often designed with a linear path in mind, are much better about placing potential platforming tools and pathways throughout the entire level, not just the main path, to allow for more creative and engaging map traversal. Compare Bom-omb battlefield with Bianco hills: Both have a linear path that spirals up a tall structure, whose summit is the end goal of the map, but wheras bom-omb battlefield doesn't really have anything else going on outside of that path aside from some trees and a few enemies on flat plains, Sunshine has a whole village, a series of ponds and garden pathways, a lake with towers with ropes between them: There's a ton of vertical and horizontal inteerplay between all of those elements, to where you can start on a building on the town on one side of the map, and wiithout ever hitting the ground, platform all the way to the lake, completely ignoring the map but still creatively using mario's jumping abilities and fludd to platform. Sunshine actually uses the levels being sandboxes to their advantages, wheras in 64 you could more or less trim the fat and only have each stage be a linear pathtway a la the 3d world games without functionally changing them that much. I see a lot of people say sunshine has worse level design or doesn't have a lot of platforming, but I think that's just because Fludd is there as a crutch and you don't /need/ to bother with challenging platforming, even though if you do it's better at it then 64. I wonder how much better the game would be received if it had a "rank" system a la sonic adventure 2 where you get rewarded for replaying missions and optimizing your play so people were encouraged to actually experiment with faster pathing through maps and not just relying on FLUDD.
Christ you are so wrong. The post card is not even a massive issue anyways. 3D Mario games almost never have a decent 100% completion bonus... Plus the 06 of Mario? Please...
This game for me was the most enjoyable 6/10 I've ever played. Most of the levels were annoying and stupid yet the core platforming and movement was so good that I still had a blast with it.
Oh , Mario Sunshine, you can be incomplete, have bad game design, be short as hell, but I can't hate you..... I spent a lot of time when I was younger not even getting Shine Sprites, but exploring and talking to the NPCS, watching how the freaking island felt, somehow, alive..... It has a lot of flaws in a lot of aspects, but I really like the game and I want it to be better, I would have loved to see more of the first beta they showed on 2001, or see all the cut content in the actual game, like the scraped levels and ideas... the Gamecube era games were rushed and cut so bad that it hurts..... maybe, someday they'll remake it, or port it and the game will have the justice it deserves,besides, Sunshine controls put Galaxy into shame.
God, I’d love a remake of Sunshine where certain level features are updated and the episodes don’t exist. I agree with you on all of it, but most of all, getting a taste of the 2001 beta version. I could’ve swore the beta at Spaceworld 2001 had humans.
The reason the world feels so alive is also the biggest gameplay flaw. Every episode of a given world is actually stored as a separate file with completely unique geometry, items, and NPC dialogue. They use this feature to develop the worlds slowly over time, which is also why the episodes must be completed linearly. I don't know if technology was a limitation at the time, but if everything was set up in a more dynamic way (like Odyssey is) it would work a lot better.
I'm sorry if this is a looong comment, I got a bit carried away. Hope you'll read it since I really enjoy your analyses and dialogue is always good in my opinion. Since one of the biggest gripes you had is, once again, being booted out of a level, I'll just say how you didn't mention how Odyssey 'fixed' that (since there are differing opinions on whether that's a good thing or not) by not doing that. I mean when you talked about "having all the objectives available at the same time" Odyssey was the first thing that came to mind. But I understand it's not really fair to compare a much newer game to an older one, but still, you could've maybe said that this 'problem' had a way to be addressed in the future of the series. Also when you talked about the blue coins! Even more so, it made me think of Odyssey's Moons. Regardless, I think this was a good analysis, and talked about some things I have never even thought about Sunshine (we are about the same age, and Sunshine was one of my childhood games so it would be hard for me too to notice some things, being blinded by nostalgia and all that). I also want to commend how you instantly talk about 'deep' (or 'not-surface-level) mechanics and aspects of the game, differently from other people who make 'in-depth-analyses', but still talk about the most basic informations about the game? I mean if you're doing an IN-DEPTH analysis, you should assume that whoever is watching KNOWS what the heck you're talking about. Sorry this segment got a little too long for such a simple point. About the music, I only now noticed (cause you put different soundtracks back to back) that a few stages have the same lead melody, but played at different tempos and with different instruments, which is a cool idea, and it surely worked, as I have not noticed it in all these years. Something I wasn't totally on board with, was with how you're not okay with the nozzle-less sections of the game. I really like them and you do too, and I get your critique, but I'm not a huge fan of not trying to give ideas to improve something you don't like, and instead just saying "just imagine how it would be if X and Y." Regardless, I share the point you made about breaking the immersion. It's not something I usually consider, cause I like videogames for their mechanics more than the immersion, so I never really cared too much about them being disconnected. I also realize how repetitive the objectives get, but as you stated in the video, the game was rushed, so sadly it's clear that they didn't have the time to maybe flesh out the game more, and so had to fall back on booting you out of a level/maximizing what they already had. If the game had a more Odyssey-like structure, with no booting out and procedural (procedural?) objectives, the game would SURELY be MUCH SHORTER and wouldn't live up to Nintendo's standards. Then again, this itself created the same exact problem, but without getting MORE TIME I'm at a loss to find ways to 'fix' this. I think that forcing you to get to the 7th Shine in each level also ties in to this point, as they probably wanted people to 'get the most out of the game' whatever way they could find. I never realized it, but once again, I share your point about the whole nozzle point. I only would've added how Metroid Prime used the D-Pad to let you choose weapons, and Sunshine could've done the same exact thing, on the same console, same generation, and same damn year (even if Sunshine was released first). Then again, Nintendo loooves simple mechanics that only get complicated if you make them, so it's no surprise they went this way, to let more casual players not get overwhelmed. Sorry once again if this was too long, just wanted to share my opinion and let you know how much I love your content!
I totally agree with you. Too rushed for it's ambition. But in a way it hurts more than 64. At the end of the day 64 is a miracle on how it holds up considering it was really "the first". Sunshine holds similarly, but the wasted potentially id way larger than 64.
fluffy_tail I recently played 64 for the first time, so I have zero nostalgic ties to 64. What makes 64 holds up is how goddamn easily Mario controls. It is just amazing to play and run around
The problem with using the d-pad for nozzles is that it takes your finger away from the the control stick, which is a problem when you're trying to maintain momentum
I think the way to do it is have the nozzles assigned to the D-pad, and have Y continue to switch between 2 nozzles. You just use the D-pad to pick which 2 you need at the moment, with D-pad pressing replacing the nozzle you weren't currently wearing.
@Amanda Slough That would be a bit unnecessarily complicated. I think the best solution would be to have X and Y cycle between the Spray, Hover, and Special nozzles. To alleviate possible confusion, I'd suggest modifying the UI to show what nozzle goes to what button, perhaps a turning wheel or a scrolling slide with the X and Y inputs being placed to represent scrolling left and right. @KingK While I'm here I might as well add this. I've thought for a long time (on and off for a couple years, in fact) about the absence of the long jump from Mario Sunshine, and my conclusions are thus: The long jump was removed not because of the hover nozzle, though that certainly gave the developers something to fall back on in its absence. Instead, it was a consequence the design direction of the movement controls. Unlike the 3D Mario titles before and after it, all of Mario's special jumping techniques in SMS are performed solely with the control stick and the jump button to keep movement intuitive and elegant, by which I mean that the movement input is simplified without necessarily losing any depth. They started with the design of the side hop and wall jump in 64 and extrapolated from there, with the new spin jump replacing the backflip's niche. Unfortunately, there is only so much you can do with an analogue stick without things getting complicated, and there isn't really a way to add the long jump without either interrupting momentum, making a particularly complicated input, or making the movement feel inconsistent. One solution that I came up with is giving Mario a "dash startup" state similar to that seen in Super Smash Bros and if the player jumps during this state then they long jump, but this runs into the momentum and inconsistent feel issues. If the player wants to long jump while running, they will be forced to let go of the stick then start again, making the long jump feel a bit jarring, making the movement less enjoyable. Another example would be when a player does the input of a side hop, that change in direction would presumably be a dash startup state, which would confuse the engine (this one is much more solvable, but important to keep in mind). Finally, most players would likely not be able to easily tell when they are in dash startup vs run, so doing jumps from a standstill would likely feel inconsistent since they wouldn't understand why they would long jump sometimes and do a normal jump at others. Another solution would be to give him a jump squat animation and pressing jump during jump squat while running would cause a long jump. The problem here is that jump squats inherently make jumping feel less responsive, negatively impacting how enjoyable the platforming is, and reducing the length of the jump squat would make the game far more technically demanding on the player. Enough of an input buffer could solve that problem, though, I guess. Wow, this ended up being way longer than I had expected. Tl;dr, there's no long jump in SMS because there isn't a good input method for it without throwing in extra buttons, which is against the game's apparent design philosophy.
Honestly, I don't mind. Sometimes you gotta just keep things as they are. Let them improve the new games they make, and leave this masterpiece with all of its flaws! Or maybe that's just my nostalgia and excitement talking 😁😁😎
i agree with you about hte music. to me, the music can make or break a game. i love games like Kingdom Hearts, Ace Combat, Journey, and even Mario because their songs are unique, catchy, and vibrant. games like Tales of Xillia, Resistance, and Killzone don't rank on any of my lists, usually because the soundtracks for those are so.... bland and generic- in Resistances' and Killzone's case, it's all military. i can stomach them fine, but the music is just... ugh. leaves a lot to be desired.
Yeah I agree. That's why BotW felt a little weird to me. Games like Sonic Mania, the first 5 3D Zeldas, F-Zero, and HELL YES KINGDOM HEARTS are so memorable too me. Those killer soundtracks!
kingofmonsters14 But The music matchs The tone Two both games. Not every game needs to have a uniq soundtrack as long as it is good. But I see Where you are coming
i'm not syaing i hate those soundtracks. i'm just saying that it can mean the difference between feeling bored during a game or focused. let me use Mass Effect and Dragon Age for example: i get bored with the first game easily until the Battle of the Citadel because the music isn't doing it for me. 2 and 3, i am hooked. as for Dragon Age, Origins and INquisition can hold my attention and excite me, while 2 is dullsville.
I heavily agree on the music part. One of the reasons why I got bored of splatoon 2 so quick compared to the first was because the music was not really fun to listen to, aside from one or two of them.
Then it wouldn't be Super Mario Sunshine my dude. I never get these type of comments, why say you want a remastered and/or remake of an old game if you want it to be completely different and strip it off it's identity? At that point you just want a new game. I'm not saying things can't be changed, they can change some unnecessary things or streamline some aspects, fix a few flaws, and add more stuff, normal things that are part of making remasters/remakes. Besides I'm not a fan of the Odyssey "approach" tbh.
@@Rex13013 I think they meant in the sense of "something that captures the same charm as Sunshine but with a more polished approach" (even if you don't like Odyssey it can be argued that they did some 3d game mechanics objectively better than Sunshine due to Nintendo's wider array if experience after years of making these kinds of games) It is obvious that Sunshine's game play suffered under its rushed development and I feel that it would have a way better reputation if the crew had been given more time to flesh their ideas out (like Corona Mountain).
I feel like a middle-ground approach to the game's world design would be optimal here. Ditch the box system, and instead allow the player to switch between the 4 nozzles at will after unlocking them. Maybe start the player with just the spray nozzle until you enter the first level in Bianco Hills. This will allow for the player to gradually unlock more and more areas of the map as they unlock nozzles. At the same time, give players the option to exit back to the hub world or stay in a level after collecting a Shine Sprite. However, my alteration to the formula is that, instead of having just one big level, create 3 levels per world. In this system, the first two levels revolve around problems that Mario needs to solve, but they change between levels. The third level is a celebration level, where everyone is cheering Mario on as their hero whilst simultaneously learning about Shadow Mario. For example, here's how Bianco Hills would be reorganized: Level 1: The Polluted Lake The lake and river are polluted entirely, half the village is submerged in goop, and multiple Goopy Piranhas are spread around the map. You'd be tasked to fix the lake that they think you destroyed. This level would include 3 Goopy Piranha boss fights spread around, a mission to clean up the village a bit, 8 red coins scattered across the surface of the poisonous lake, and the Secret of the Lake level. You unlock the next level by defeating the Goopy Piranhas, which is supposed to prevent them from polluting the lake further. Level 2: Down with Petey Piranha! The lake is now clean, but the town is again ransacked. You can free the locals from their goopy prison, wherein they proclaim that the monster on the cliff's edge attacked them while rewarding you with a Shine for your help. You fight Petey in the same manner as your rematch normally, with him flying around the village wrecking the place again. Once he's beaten, he vomits up a Shine Sprite, flies out of your reach, and roosts atop the windmill. If you have the rocket nozzle unlocked, you can chase him up there for a rematch. Imagine the first fight against him, but he can use a fly/ground pound move to create shockwaves across the floor. You can also only hurt him with Rocket powered ground pounds. You can also scour the rooftops and windmills in the village for 8 red coins, and complete the Secret of the Cliff Cave level, or whatever it's called. You unlock the next level by beating Petey in the rematch, acting as a progress check to ensure that the player obtains the Rocket Nozzle beforehand. Level 3: Keep Bianco Hills Beautiful I'm kinda stretching for this one, but the concept isn't too extreme. It starts with a Shadow Mario level, with you chasing him around with the residents realizing your innocence. The residents then comment that the monsters in the field near the village are still causing them problems, and ask you (politely) to take care of them, even offering to make it into a game. Defeating 20 or so Pokeys within a certain time limit and they reward you with a Shine Sprite. You can collect red coins in the treetops, and can do the red coin challenges for the two secret levels assuming they've been beaten previously. The Shadow Mario Shine still acts as a checkpoint for the final mission to Corona Mountain. This sort of system could probably work with most of the worlds as is, though a few of them would definitely need to be reworked to make this work. For example, I genuinely have no idea what Level 2 of Gelato Beach would revolve around.
I like this idea in a broad sense. Other than the need for reworking the missions in some cases, there’s the game-wide challenge of how you’d transition from one instance (level) of a world to the next. A leave-and-revisit into a radically altered version of the area you were *just* exploring would with a new batch of available shrine sprites wouldn’t do to solve the existing immersion problem, imo. You alluded to progression-gating with the rocket nozzle’s use in the later stages of Bianco Hills. It’s things like this that would make your hybridising of Sunshine work, by creating an illusion of time’s passage before a new instance of a world becomes available. Not only with things like the nozzles, though. The unique feeling of interconnectedness in the game would be enhanced if some of the player’s activities in one world could trigger a new event in another. For example, say by solving the major crisis in the Bianco Hills 1 (goopy piranhas), Gelato Beach 1 is opened to the player. Access to Rico Harbour 1 unlocks next, by similarly dealing with the Beach’s first main obstacle (the mirror ducks?) Nothing too crazy so far. But then you send the big blooper in Rico Harbour blasting off like Team Rocket when you defeat it, and the place where it lands happens to be the lake in Bianco Hills, resulting in its re-pollution. This triggers Bianco Hills’ second ‘level’ to begin the next time the player visits it, with new major and minor challenges to overcome, as well any uncollected incidental shine sprites left over from the first instance of the course.
I have literally never heard anyone complain about immersion, let alone hear someone develop their entire opinion on a game over it's level of immersion.
Holy shit, this is the second Sunshine video i've watched this week that talks about Toy Story 2 the Video Game. It think it's a sign that I need to play it
The booting out of the level for me serves as progression in a sense. If I could just chill in a level and get all the shines replay ability in a level would go way down. The changing of levels as you progress through each Star makes it feel like you’re completing chapters in that specific story. I’d love it to be non “missioned” based if the environments were a little more varied and maybe bigger? But if the levels were as they were mission based is way better
The first time I played super Mario sunshine, I got around 18 stars and quit cause it wasn’t clicking for me. Six months went by, and I heard the theme played underwater, and it was amazing and made me return to the game, only for me to become obsessed with it and complete it to 100% and now it’s one of my all time favorites. I just think you have to play certain games at the right time and you can’t force it :)
my headcannon as a kid with the secret levels was that bowser jr made them with the paintbrush to try and trip up mario. either way trippy whacky levels randomly appearing don’t feel like a flaw, but a fun change of pace (most of the time, lol). odyssey had a trex for crying out loud lmao.
Kinda surprised you didn't mention the camera to be honest. When it works it's okay, but when it comes to a high wall or tight platforming section, it feels the camera has a real tendency to get stuck behind things, like in the Ferris Wheel section of Pinna Park. Feels like an improvement and downgrade on 64's system all at the same time. And Corona Mountain has its issues too. Like being a huge random difficulty spike which felt really out of place compared to the rest of the game. Like a secret level in an 'immersive' setting. But yeah, Sunshine definitely feels like a game with missed potential, and one which didn't really know what it was meant to be. Honestly, put the ideas mentioned on TCRF page or Mario Wiki and in early trailers into the game, and you'd probably have a far better experience that takes the immersion offered by Isle Delfino and truly builds something with it. Heck, it even had a train system at one time, sort of like Banjo-Tooie... Either way, interesting video, and I can't wait to see what your future takes on 3D Mario games are like,
for a game with large wide open outdoor areas you think the camera wouldn't be so suffocated by the level design, it felt like every time I had to navigate something there was some object close enough to obscure it
The game itself could've been so much better if they just took their time with it, but if I had to be honest rushing the game was probably their only option. Especially when you consider how badly the PS2 was destroying Nintendo's sales numbers for the GameCube, they pretty much had to get games out fast to renew consumer interest in order to stay afloat in the console market.
My favorite Mario game Easily the best for me. Even now, pushing aside nostalgia and my past , it's still my favorite Mario game and probably my favorite platformer. despite this, there are a number of changes I would make in a spiritual successor if I were to ever attempt to make a game
It’s definitely my favorite Mario game as well. It carries a lot of nostalgia from my past as well. It’s perfect, creative, and fun. Amazing game and fantastic platformer
I honestly feel that The Toy Story 2 game is an underrated gem. It's far from the best platformer of its time but it's faithfulness to the source material (such as the locations pulled directly from the movies, all the main Side characters making appearances in each level, and hell even the batteries Buzz uses the power up are the actual fictional brand used in the Toy Story movies) really keeps me immersed in that game when I played it. It even plays well by today's standards.
I love the secret levels. I like that it’s a change of pace from the rest of the game. I always liked that the 3D Mario games have these weird abstract levels that seem to exist in a whole other dimension. Rainbow road, too. That type of thing always gives me a great sense of existential dread which I think adds depth to the experience.
do not ask me for galaxy, please
KingK Could you please do Galaxy next?
KingK BUT WHY???
Have you heard about Sūpā Mario Gyarakushī? It's supposed to be good, so maybe give it a shot?
can we ask for wizard101 tho?
galaxy when?
Watching you land in water over and over and not automatically hold the trigger down to refill it awakened something primal and dark inside of me. Is this what it feels like to be an angry internet commenter??
Lmaoooooooo I thought the same thing
Same
BRO SAME LMAO
Same. It's such a small thing but...ugh.
@Your Mom's Creepy Uncle Wtf are you talking about.
Sunshine’s graphics are still stunning to this day. No-one seems to talk about it.
Stunning is a bit over the top but impressive? Yes.
@@jjc4924
"Save" you're acting like it's a absolute atrocity of a game.
Tbh I think Sunshine aesthetically looks much better than Odyssey. It has many more darks that draw out bright and saturated colors, the locations and direction are far far more consistent, the environments feel far more handcrafted where Odyssey felt like EVERYTHING was a game asset, and it's less lathered in crap like bloom that drowned out many parts of Odyssey or lamely-placed particle effects.
not really 'stunning' that's galaxy's graphics
For an Gamecube game, Sunshine looks absolutely gorgeous. It may not be THE best looking game on the GameCube nor it's not as stunning as later 3D Mario games does better honestly. But still looks amazing to this day & an heck of alot better than 64 personally.
15:38 I nearly exploded when you jumped out of the water with less than a quarter of your water tank without refilling...
Same.
I KNOW! Look, I know it's just a game, but that move made me feel a very negative feeling I can only call: disgust.
Came to the comments section for this!
This.
Mario sunshine, the one mario game where he does his job as a plumber.
Mario and Luigi Superstar Saga had Mario and Luigi fixing up leaky pipes
What about the original arcade Mario Bros? And I'd argue that just because Mario has access to water at all times doesn't mean he ever does any actual plumbing.
3D world
Superstar Saga
@@saifuusuri yeah typcially spraying water to clean pollution has nothing to do with a plumbers job.
I still remember playing this Game while my parents were arguing in the living room :')
I think those are the people that would appreciate a game like mario sunshine the most. A relaxing, tropical escape to help cope with the struggles you go through as a kid.
Same
Jesus Christ.
Same man...
That was me with windwaker
The fact Sunshine is so comfy and stressful is crazy.
this is my favorite 3d mario game, therefor any negative opinions in this video are objectively incorrect.
good vid tho
gillythekid Odyssey is the best one though.
dorian videos Here we have “dorian” a whiny baby that can’t take an opinion.
gillythekid this is my favorite game of all time
i agree that sunshine = life, oddessey is the worst desighned mario game because of so much FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER FILLERFILLER FILLER FILLER FILLER and yes i need to copy and paste it to prove my point ;)
It's my fave too
You know, I guess I never thought Sunshine seemed rushed until I really thought about it, and the biggest area that shows a lack of polish is some of the physics. The way slopes can make Mario jitter when he slides up or down them, the durian's frustrating soccer ball collision, Pachinko machine, clipping through platforms, and lag during the final boss.
What I find surprising, is that despite how much Sunshine can frustrate me, and after I admitted to myself it's very flawed (due to your reasoning), I still consider it one of the best, and my personal favorite, 3D Mario games ever, and i gotta say, for being rushed, the game manages to be a dang fun experience.
Well said.
That was the case with many gamecube games sadly
Yes but the reason it was rushed was due to them scrapping he beta but I don’t know about the time restraint
The game released in 2002 and it still looks beautiful. Can’t wait to play it again in 2 weeks. Is gonna be a long 2 weeks.
Only halfway through and it feels like forever lmfao
its been a long 10 yrs for me
Sarah Nelson last timed I played it was like 2006/2007 idk but is been a while. 4 more days.
@@H.E.M. we're in the endgame now.
The Rogue 😳 this is it. 😵
“A watermelon...escort mission...” I lost it there. Hilarious reaction
You could hear him with his hands pulling on his cheeks in utter frustration
It was beautiful
Damn, someone really doesn't like those secret levels. I personally love them and feel they don't take away from the game at all. I just treat them like a level warp to a different dimension.
Chris Kerr I love sunshine, but I don’t like most of the secret levels. The freakin pianta village secret level! My god! My blood boils just thinking about!
Yeah, Mario has always been about warping to weird locations anyway.
I found the secret levels to be awesome
They really challenge you to master the excellent jumping mechanics. But yeah that pinball/plinko one was terrible
Completely agree! I was showing my friend SMS for the first time ever the other day and the first secret level we hit was mindblowing for him! I love the secret levels, and I think it's exciting and natural that they are in separate dimensions and present the hardest challenges of the game.
I am three minutes into the video.
I had blocked out that Sunshine commercial.
It is now back, along with reruns of Courage the Cowardly Dog.
I hate you with all my love.
pyrrhickong that trailer is scary
ugh i dont give a shit about the commerical itself but that one tiny shot where he picks up that thing with brown sticky substance is so gross
I never saw that commercial before, I have rarely been so glad I started avoiding advertising around the time this must have aired.
The coolest thing about Sundhine's soundtrack is that every main level theme is derived from the same melody. Yet, they're so different an unique from each other, that it took me years to notice they were the same leitmotif. And I _am_ a music person, unlike King K. This was the video that helped me notice that nifty detail.
Are they all derived from the same melody? I hear Delfino Plaza, Bianco Hills, Ricco Harbor, and Gelato Beach sharing a leitmotif but I can’t hear it in Pinna Park, Sirena Beach, Noki Bay, Pianta Village, or elsewhere.
I'm replaying the game rn so I'll get back to you on that. It could be they're based on their own melody, as these levels(excluding the Pianta) are the Noki residences. Pianta Village does't have so much of a melody, as the others, but it could possibly be designed to mesh with the others. Interesting stuff overall.
I wish I could play sunshine again
It was so fun and stressful
Lt. Viper Dolphin?
Youre in luck
You can today :)
Just like IMP said, get the Dolphin Emulator on a laptop. I did 2 weeks ago and Sunshine was the first game I put on there.
@@darkmatter3538 bro dolphin is so bad, just get mario 3d all stars
I've always loved how I've felt like I can understand the place that mario is in and kinda get teleported in. Jolly roger bay seems chilly, like the oregon coast.
Super Mario Sunshine does the same for me. It's always been a nice place for me to go and just enjoy. It's a laid back game, and I'll always love it. It's the vacation I've never had.
I just have to say that in Bianco Hills, you actually can skip the first shine. If you just walk past the shine after killing the goop piranha, Petey is on top of the windmill ready for you to take him on. But I think that's the ONLY instance throughout the game where it's like this.
You can also go to Pianta Village without the rocket nozzle, Rico Harbor without Bianca Hills, and Gelato without Rico Harbor, IIRC.
And *technically* you can do the watermelon shine early which unlocks all the episodes in that level (that does require a glitch though)
Most of the levels are like this actually, often there are multiple shines available at the same time. I think his rant was more about getting kicked out after collecting one of them.
For example, have you ever accidentally hit a shadow shine (one that you’d already collected)while going for a different one? Having to start over is the worst.
But you still have to beat episodes 1-7 to get to the final level.
It's a weird exception to Sunshine's annoying rule.
See, the main problem of the game, is that the word "sunshine" has 2 syllables, while "Galaxy," "64," and "Odyssey" have 3 syllables.
Unnacceptable naming scheme Nintendo.
Gamesforus 64 is 2 numbers.
Max Hamilton
Actually, it's one number
Max Hamilton It’s one number made of two numbers: a double-digit number. Also you wouldn’t call Super Mario 64 Super Mario six-four.
Super Mario Sunnyshine
2 Syllables sounds better than 3
HE DID IT. THE ABSOLUTE MADMAN.
"Whenever it's summertime, I prefer to stay inside and explore Isle Delfino."
Wow, that line sure fits now two years later.
Oof
More fitting than ever with Super mario 3D allstars coming out lol
Corona mountain
Covid overreaction cringe.
not 4 years later
Sunshine footage, Sunshine music and a great voice, just perfect :)
This was a great watch. Sunshine definitely has a charm that few games can match, and iconic moments like the waterslide corridor at the start of bianco. I might be a little biased, but I believe that Sunshine also has the best technical control of any game when you really master the nuance of spinjumping combined with how many movement options it has with the addition of FLUDD. While secret levels do feel disjointed from the main game, it's sort of a staple for Mario games to have these purely platforming levels, and I think they are a great addition that add extra challenge to the game (Odyssey had even more of these). That being said, the secret levels within Delfino plaza do seem much more out of place, and some people even believe they are dev/testing levels left into the game.
Sunshine DEFINITELY could've been a better game if the requirement for Corona was shine-count based rather than specific shine (ep. 7s) based, so you really hit the nail on the head with that. There really was so much missed potential, and I always wonder what a game with better level design and Sunshine's movement would be like.
Also, I gotta say that's the highest quality footage I've seen of the "Clean is Better than Dirty" commercial I've ever seen LOL.
Hey when you gonna make that 120 shine history video. I've already watched the Any% video 20 times boiii
+AverageTreyVG
Super Mario Sunshine's controls has much faster and rapid movements of Mario which gives you a rush when speed running it.
Man, if only we could get a Mario Sunshine 2 on the Switch with lots of new areas and secret levels in Delfino, along with removing the boot-out system. I really enjoyed Odyssey not booting the player out of the level, and it's a great game in its own right, but I absolutely love the "immersion" (as Kingk puts it) that Sunshine creates with its world and music. I also love mission based moons rather than the slightly less worth moons in Odyssey. If we could just get Isle Delfino + new content for the Switch I could die happy.
Is there a Rom hack that allows you to get any shines you want rather than the ep. 7 shines to beat the game?
Proper video gaming started in my life with the Gamecube (my first "system" was a Game Boy Color but that's limited hardware so I don't really count it). Sunshine was 1 of only 4 games I played for hours and hours.... as cheesy as it may sound, it was a powerful influence in my life simply because of how immersive it was. I easily disconnected from reality and lost myself in Isle Delfino with its colors, its music, its relaxing atmosphere, its variety, etc. These days I don't game much apart from a few occasional sessions on PC. But (and hopefully I'm not the only one who feels this) if a Sunshine 2 was put into production I wouldn't hesitate to buy a Switch just for that game.
The madman actually did it
On the topic of the aesthetics and consistency of the level design:
This was achieved all the way back in Ocarina of Time, and Majora's Mask to a greater extent. For example, in Majora's Mask 3D, you can see Stone Tower from Romani Ranch, and you can see the mountains from Great Bay, which from the mountains you can see Stone Tower covered in fog.
Oh I never recognized that. But I guess youre right
I liked being booted out, it made each time you entered a level like a different chapter in a book. It was a very good feeling
Agreed. 64 feels most of the time the same thing when you go back to the level after finishing a mission. The progression in Sunshine feels way better
Now if only each chapter actually felt like a new experience instead of mostly a retread...
Super Mario Galaxy is the only game where I don't mind being booted out. There's a very clear 3-level structure to each galaxy, with less retreading, and the comet missions are meant to be distinct moments in each galaxy so it makes sense why you can't complete them without having to leave and re-enter. Plus, it's only 3 levels along with 3 more bonus levels (4 in Dust Dunes' case). There were more per world in Sunshine because it only had 7 worlds.
I just wish some of the secret stars didn't boot you out.
I totally agree with you pal!!!
absolutely
lol i really remember enjoying every mission you listed as a "waste of time". i always loved the laid-back ones.
Just seeing a glimpse of the raft section from Bowser's cave gives me a wave of stress throughout my body haha.
I wanna congratulate you on a job well done with this one. I know memes and just the conflicting opinions that this game brings up made it harder to write on, and I really feel that you did an even more comprehensive job with this than you did on 64. Your passion for the elements that Sunshine does well is captivating and so believable, and your turn on its more negative aspects goes from reluctant to your normal, excellent, thorough criticism. Not to say that your other videos don't do this, but it's SO strong here.
Sunshine has always been hard for me due to an element you didn't mention: its narrative. As stupid, failed, and hilariously poorly acted as it is, Sunshine's narrative is a massive part of its structure, and is probably the element I think that Sunshine rolled with the most as a direct expansion of 64. Narrative was getting more popular and important in games, grandpa Miyamoto was only suggesting things rather than directly overseeing the project so his "narrative doesn't matter that much" mentality let the Sunshine team kinda just roll with it, the princess DOESN'T GET KIDNAPPED AT THE VERY START AND IS AN ACTUAL CHARACTER... KINDA. A LITTLE. SHE SAYS THINGS OTHER THAN THANK YOU. This is reflected in Sunshine's level structure - Mario can't leave until he "cleans up all that ugliness", he CAN'T just collect shines because that doesn't solve the problem of the game. It's actually not an element I thought of until you brought it up with every eighth chapter being a celebration and I went "... oh yeah, huh."
It's CLEARLY to the game's detriment, but it's also a bit strange of a problem to fix. Odyssey had a similar feeling with the "save the world" requirement, where you could just ditch a kingdom after getting so many moons without beating the boss, and it made returning to them feel really weird and game-y, killing that immersion dead, which is even more important in Sunshine. I honestly think it's just a flawed focus, but... eh, I mean, at least there's a reason for it?
Still, thank you so much for this. It's fascinating to hear a take on the special levels that wasn't "THEY WERE THE BEST PART AND GALAXY MADE THEM THE WHOLE GAME GALAXY IS SO GOOD" that was so, so prevalent from Galaxy's release until... basically Odyssey, really. You made me think of concepts like Bloopers Vs the Turbo Nozzle that I'd just kinda taken for granted and not even considered before. This is a good one.
pyrrhickong you should watch Barry Kramer's video on Mario Galaxy. That should satisfy the subversion of the typical material.
Yeeeeeeeeeaaaaaah...as much as I respect Miyamoto, he seriously needs to be kept on a shorter leash. Like, I get that he has a VERY old-fashioned approach to game design, and to give credit where it's due, it works incredibly well for him when the game is designed with that mindset from the beginning.
Unfortunately, the man also has his dark side, and said dark side comes in the form of being overprotective of the Mario franchise. He has a nasty habit of declaring from on high that *HE* knows what's best and anyone who dares challenge his wisdom is an incompetent fool. However, the reality is, Miyamoto is starting to show his age, and absolutely refuses to adapt to the times. He's still designing games like it's 2003! And this wouldn't bother me so much if it didn't seem like he's also constantly turning a deaf ear to criticism both from his colleagues and the executives! Like, the man's a genius, but his arrogance has been beyond detrimental to many of the projects he's worked on!
A "comprehensive job". That's the words I was looking for to fully understand this channel. x)
Thanks you. ^^
pyrrhickong Seems like you're commenting all his videos and this is interesting to read both your opinion and the opinion of KingK. In my childhood, the games I played and enjoyed the most were Billy Hatcher and Super Mario Sunshine. Because of Nostalgia, I think that I granted too much credit to Sunshine. This is true that with the time I couldn't convince myself to play it again but I also couldn't admit its flaws. I kept saying that it was one of the best games I played. It may be true as I didn't play that much games but I also can't keep being so narrow-minded. I loved the last part of the video talking about the mess in one's head know if it is or it is not a good game. I should definetly replay it and get and answer once for all.
The secret levels in mario sunshine were my favorites. They were always so much fun for me. I didn't notice as a kid... at first. It took me many hours to realize that I had a smile in my face every time I died while playing the secret levels.
Those levels were like the training ground for galaxy, and in my opinion, it's much better than the usual sunshine gameplay... sadly. Because I love the environment, music, etc... in Delfino island.
I feel like it was a good mesh. I wouldn't say it was "better," but definitely different and more difficult. I never noticed a lack of immersion, either
i wouldn’t say better, but i personally do prefer the special stage gameplay and design. i just like the pure platforming and challenge in different objects and moving geometry
There were bitemarks on my gamecube controllers because of these secret levels, hated them LOL!
That sense of immersion is also my favorite thing about the game, and really the only reason I ever go back to it. But another collectathon that does that better is the first Jak and Daxter, which is why it's my personal favorite collectathon. Everything in the game is connected without load times, so your immersion is never broken.
I find the special courses a lot like a mysterious hidden area you might find while exploring.
Imagine for a moment that you're a kid who's having fun on a beach. You look over to the left and see that there's this section of the beach that barely anyone seems to hang around. Out of curiosity you go there, and you realise that the beach ends at this large cliff face that has a pile of rocks resting at its bottom. The rocks seem to snake around the edge of the cliff to who knows where. Being the cheeky little bugger you are, you climb on the rocks and make your way around the cliff face, and suddenly you see that, while it's small, there's another part of the beach. In the middle of this sectioned off land of sand, you find a small house made of wood. It looks sturdy enough and it looks/sounds empty, so you make your way inside and explore it for a little while, stumbling upon a cooler in one of the rooms. You open it, and find a can of coke that has a sticky note on it saying "Congratulations".
It's a door in a building you never see open, a draw in your grandma's place you're never able to search, a treasure chest in the sand.
The whole of Delfino Island is public property, and you can easily see that with all the buildings and attractions the place has. The platforming is very natural like King K said. But, once you've entered the special course, you're in a secluded place.
Suddenly, you're a short fat Italian man jumping around on an obsticle course that defies all logic, in a place that shouldn't even exist. A world, that's specifically tailor made just for you, only to be seen, by your eyes.
Too bad the game figuratively and literally points you to where the special courses are. Kinda takes away some of the fun and immersion by going like "Hey! Over here!".
"I find the special courses a lot like a mysterious hidden area you might find while exploring"
Well then why does the game just straight up show you were they are? God the mission structure in this game is so bad...
@@k-leb4671 It ain't bad. If the game didn't tell you where the secret was, it'd be a much more frustrating time trying to find the secret in the first place.
I kinda get where you're coming from and it could be done better, but at least this way it gets to the point
@mlg noob It shows you where the secret is sure, but it doesn't show you WHAT the secret is.
It would be cool if Nintendo made a sequel to Mario Sunshine, incorporating all they've learned about 3D game design.
I sure wish they did!
I've always admired the world of Sunshine. I think it's excellent that it takes a single setting and yet manages to craft a world with many diverse locales despite their relative proximity. You'd expect levels to feel samey but somehow they managed to make each one wholly distinct. It's all believable and I find it strange that they didn't decide to make the game fully interconnected with no level selects at all, because that would work perfectly with Isle Delfino's layout. Obviously, not every game has to be like this, but the ones that do really stand out. I haven't actually played Sunshine, so I can't comment on the gameplay or such else, so I'll leave my comment here at the 15 minute mark. Otherwise, I'm sure the rest of the video is great and I'm glad you managed to get it over and done with. Hopefully people won't nag you incessantly about the next one *ahem* and I look forward to whatever it is you do next, be it KH2, SMG or something else entirely.
Every time I played this game, I always wanted to drink lots of water lol, that’s a good thing right?
and eat SO much fruit. funnily enough one of my fondest memories of the game was developing a STRONG craving for chocolate vanilla swirl ice cream after playing through the opening sequence of Delphino Plaza. something about the entire game just makes me hungry.
@@Jackpotter11 I think it's because of the colorful and saturated aesthetic and how appealing it makes the water and fruit look
@@Jackpotter11 LITERALLY!
Should we talk how about this comment was made 26 years ago?
@@doitfaster9553 You got bamboozled
I feel like you have a tremendously weird and skewed view of the way Nintendo develops games and sequels. Nintendo has always created games by first asking the question “what can we do now that we couldn’t do before?” And then building an entire game around it. In the case of sunshine, it was the concept that the GameCube could do water mechanics better than any console on the market. It’s not a coincidence that Sunshine, Windwaker and Waverace all have to do with water and manipulating water.
So it’s false to assume that Nintendo was sitting around thinking up what the sequel to Mario 64 was going to be and they decided on a jet[ack “gimmick” to pretend it’s a new game. The water mechanic was the entire game. Mario came second.
The fiction in Nintendo games is almost entirely irrelevant. They come up with a game concept first and add in the fiction later.
Didn't he already justify exactly what you said with proof? I recall him talking about the interview that says exactly what you're referring to.
the "Dolphin" as u may call it
Twilight Princess seems like a stark contrast to that. It didn't really do anything new, but then again that was the one time Nintendo just gave the fans what they demanded.
Otherwise Zelda as a whole is the perfect example.
@@zeroattentiongaming820 TP is the perfect embracing of the Zelda "formula"...12 actual proper dungeons
@@timwinterhalter5233 That's exactly what TP is in both good and bad ways. It's the ultimate culmination of the traditional formula and excellent because of it.
On the other hand it's the ultimate culmination and nothing more, bringing nothing new to the table beyond Tears of Light (which do not enhance the gameplay at all) and horseback sword fighting which is barely used outside a few admittedly awesome boss fights.
TP is the one time Nintendo just gave people what they wanted leaving a game that is both perfected and lack luster in a way that only a Nintendo franchise could be. Zelda has always been pushing design forward, TP didn't do that, choosing instead to perfect the existing design.
24:07 Playing on emulator ey?
In case it makes you feel any better, the theme in the special stages is explained. It's supposed to represent Bowser Jr.'s toy box (he's still a kid after all) brought to live by his Magic Paintbrush.
where do you get the emulation from?
A.J, all you have to do is Google for GameCube emulator? I would recommend Dolphin.
@@mario64remix I know what Dolphin is. What about 24:07 and the dolphin emulator? Im not seeing it.
A.J, Oohh right. Yeah Dolphin was probably used in this video but an earlier version, so it’s been patched by now.
@@mario64remix i think he means what about 24:07 makes you think he's playing on an emulator
“Hot take here,”
Shows footage of lava
Sunshine was even more fun to control than 64, the setting was fresh and inventive, the levels were fun to run around in, the graphics were bright and colorful and still manage to look pretty nice over 15 years later even with the obvious technical limitations, and the soundtrack never gets old despite most of the soundtrack being different versions of the same tune.
But pretty much everything else about the game feels like it's actively trying to sabotage itself.
Sorry but I can't agree about it being fun to control: spraying things with FLUDD is awkward and you have to fight the camera constantly to aim it. One can learn to do it proficiently, but never have I seen somebody struggle with controls in a Mario game-except people trying to kill the piranhas in the first few shines of _Sunshine._ I have seen more people struggle with those controls than not.
too bad the mario sunshine was a failure and sm64 is considered by many to be one of of the greatest game of all time...lol ez
Sarah sonar when do you have to fight the camera. It gives you complete control over it at all times. You can just as easily set the camera behind you with one of the shoulder buttons as well.
Grigori Rasputin1990 sunshine was never a failure and is considered by many to be a good game. Also sales don’t make a game good. If that was the case then games like sonic 06 would be great. You’d have to have pretty low standards to consider Mario 64 one of the greatest games of all time. It’s not even the best Mario game or 3D Mario game.
Sunshine is in an same category with 64. Sunshine does some things better than 64. But at the same time, 64 does some things better than Sunshine. They had there pro & cons. None of them are the best 3D Mario games. But there still fun.
I remember waking up bright and early as a kid on the weekends, and running to my GameCube to play Mario sunshine. I always thought the water looked so life like, I would spend time just swimming around lol. This has always been my favorite game, and brings me great sense of nostalgia every time.
I love your take on this game. I have hundreds of hours poured into it and your part about the music is exactly why I love this game so much. It reminds me of simpler times. Cool summer nights during middle and highschool. Its my happy place
Since you brought up movie licensed collectathons, and this isn't even a meme at this point: Battle for Bikini Bottom was miles ahead of its contemporaries by including a pause-menu warp system for each spatula (power-star) and a world structure that told a small narrative by not kicking you out of the stage each time. Goo Lagoon (its own beach level) went beach -> giant sand castle -> cave system -> amusement park -> and back to the original beach to finish off the quest teased at the start of the level.
This is a very underrated comment. Thank you
I forgot about this game but reading this it all comes flooding back the old days
Battle for bikini bottom is so underrated. For being a licensed game, it's way better than it has any right to be.
Personally, I like the special secret levels. A break from the exploration feel for some good ol' fashioned platforming.
Also I would say the changes in the world is a fair excuse for the boot outs, and the death boot outs (while this doesn't apply to all of them) in order to force a reset of the world so you're not locked into the level with an uncompletable objective. Granted, there are better solutions, but sunshine did have a short development time afterall if I recall correctly.
Oh and thanks for not freaking out at the blue coins!
I agree. There was another analysis of this game, by ExoParadigmGamer I believe, and he argued that it's actually good that those secret levels are in their own little secret areas of the world. Mario 64 tried to incorporate those really difficult old-school platforming elements into the main levels, and it created a really frustrating experience a lot of the time, whereas Sunshine does a great job of giving you both the old school platforming and the more modern 3d exploration environment without trying to mash them together into the same space. I like the Sunshine approach much more than the M64 approach.
Those secret levels without F.L.U.D.D. were always my favorites.
I remember my first encounter with this game was playing a demo of it at walmart and being blown away by it. It's probably one of the games that really made me a fan of video games as a kid. that and Smash bros.
This game was a stroke of design genius even for a game with such a small budget and time to work on it. We severely lack games of this caliber today.
The secret areas were by far my favorite parts. A Hat in Time has them too, so good
Damn I still need to play that one
Honestly, I was expecting just another generic Sunshine review when going into this, and I wasn't really expecting anything to be said that would really make me question my current stance on the game. Personally, it's one of my favorite Mario games ever, and even one of my favorite video games of all time, but this video brought up a lot of interesting points that I had never even thought of, and now I think I know where I stand on this game. Good job, KingK.
My immersion was never broken getting booted out of a painting after every star.
I always considered myself in Peach’s castle, but just inside one of the paintings. So the locations make sense the same way real pictures in peoples houses do.
Wow I have to say you really covered this game in what, to me, feels perfect. I've always connected to how you articulate your feelings towards video games, but this really resonated with me. It had been so long since I've played it I never realized how much the game was at war with itself over what it wanted to be.
I don't know man, it was one of the most fun games I ever played as a kid, love it to death.
It is even easier than you thought the "poison bubbles" actually heal Mario during the eel tooth cleaning.
Edit: Sorry It has been brought to my attention that while the poison does refill your breath meter allowing you to stay down there longer it does still damage Mario's overall health.
Barry ToneLoc WAIT WHAT
WHAT
@@edgyninja1910 Sorry I worded that lazily. They do hurt Mario, but they do refill his breath meter allowing you to stay down there longer.
You're supposed to spray them first. They burst into bubbles and you can refill your air meter without damaging yourself.
Great Job on this vid. It feel like it was a real struggle to put your thoughts together on this one (Although you explicitly said so, in past updates). I congratulate you for sorting that out, It probably was a ton of work and I think it shows. Never played Sunshine but I love how you showed it to me and that will always be what I like about your work : Your way of explaining your thoughts, the way you word them, the freakin soothing voice.
Great work. Sunshine if finally done and I hope you are proud of it.
You might like the music because it is a very similar leitmotif (notes and melodies for gelato beach, the hub world, bianco hills, rico harbor are almost identical) but the instruments (timbre), tempo, and rhythm are changed based on the setting. It makes the music seem familiar, but different at the same time.
Towards the end of video where you explain how repetitive the levels and bosses are is absolutely hilarious and really articulates the true feelings of a gamer having to deal with aimless repetition during a game, good or bad, might I add.
Sunshine's water looks absolutely stunning
I think an unintentional stroke of brilliance with this game's level design, was the fact that they had a jetpack in mind when designing everything. So trying to play the game without using the jetpack gives you an incredibly challenging and unique platforming experience, that really gives you a stronger appreciation for how they built Mario's moveset in Sunshine. Combine that with the lack of a cinematic pre-programmed camera like Mario 64, and you have a very fun and unique experience.
you’re pretty much on point about how annoying being booted from a course can be. I’ve been replaying Sunshine and have zero desire to turn in the blue coins I've collected.
i enjoy the breaks and linearity afforded by the boot-outs and, well, linear structure. me, as a child, would feel overwhelmed in a negative way if i was given that much open space. i always feel uncomfortable playing botw, for instance. there's no punctuation, which means that to my mind, nothing matters. i feel like these subjective emotions are often neglected in the discussion of what makes "good" game design. there's not a single video game i play where i don't yearn for the little breathing rooms and cutscenes. i love those.
Check out "The Importance of Quiet Time" by Super Bunnyhop
This is actually a really good point. I have this same feeling about botw but could never quite put my finger on it until now
I'd say running accross a field is basically a more compelling loading screen lol.
I agree with this so heavily and feel the exact same way about giant open world games.
Do you dislike playing Minecraft by any chance?
Odyssey finally eliminated the boot out problem and it is amazing how much more free and explorative the game feels for it!
I think Odyssey's gameplay feels incredibly cheap and unrewarding. You take two steps and you find another moon. There's no soul to it.
@@kingcrimson4133 every step of the way is enjoyable where as sunshine and 64 can be painful and relentless in some parts
Evan Hamilton yeah, most of odyssey felt like doing a collection quest from a Ubisoft game the whole time. The best parts are when you actually have a clear mission to complete
@@linksgrandma25 at least you don't have to horribly designed missions that take eons to complete. and instead get to play at your own pace and only do what you find to be enjoyable
@@linksgrandma25 i agree with you. it’s a shame because odyssey’s movement is absolutely flawless
It's weird that I'm 34, KingK is like 21, and he sounds like a dude my age with his retrospective and tone.
He’s a grown ass man. You’re surprised?
Eh I know 21 year olds that sound that mature. It's not rare.
This was my first Gamecube game, as it came with it as a bundle when I received my first gamecube. Thanks to Ocarina of time, I had always thought the word serenade was wholly water related. Therefore, when I would use the spin jump or spin on the ground and using Fludd to attack enemies or sludge, I would always scream "Spiralling Serenade!!"
I miss being 10 lol
I love everything about this comment. You just made up your own Magical Girl/Power Rangers attack. I also miss being 10...
i grew up with that toy story 2 game. i never thought id see any game talker person mention it ever, so this kinda made my day. cheers friend, your discussions on games are always superb
Ah yes many songs I like in games take me back to the very moment I first experienced them or experienced them most memorably.
Indicentally, the sax from Ricco harbor and gelato beach is what inspired me to join band and play alto sax in middle school
The rant about secret stages was pretty annoying to me. Did anyone else not care in the slightest that it supposedly "breaks the immersion"? I didn't care before watching this video, I didn't care while watching it, and I still don't care. There are many flaws in design that SMS has and the secret stages being in the middle of nowhere literally doesn't matter at all to me.
they were the only good part to me
Considering this is an opinionated review clearly the reason it was elongated was due to the fact that at Sunshine’s core the only reason that he was enjoying it at all was due to its immersion and vibes attained from it and ruining that consecutively caused a detriment to his experience. You can say it’s “annoying” and that you “didn’t care” but without having more evidence to back up your opinion unlike what he has done then you are coming across as ignorant and at least not acknowledging the very game breaking problems that cause people to hate SMS.
"immersion" is the only complement this doofus can give this trainwreck, so of course after he turns on the fan and has ocean tides playing in the background every time he fires up this game and one of those special stages comes up and destroys the illusion that he is indeed outdoors, he hates it.
The secret stages were the only redeeming part of this game. In trying to make you feel like you were crippled without FLUDD, the developers instead showed you just how useless it was, and how much its inclusion turned this from a Mario game to a really boring cleaning + flight simulator combo.
Yep. There are so many terrible shines in this game (pachinko, river of death, watermelon festival, eely mouths dentist, the roller coaster boss, the shadow mario ones etc.) the stupid boat riding, terrible camera, and anything involving yoshi top off this turd sundae...
the two fun nozzles are hardly used. And mario is so twitchy, 0-60 in an instant. I didn't mind the beach theme, but theres so many bad things about this game, yet everyone seems to love it for God only knows why
Yeah, I saw a 45min video on Sunshine and said 'great...this should be good.' But now I'm 10min in and I keep hearing about how Mario64 was 'disconnected' and how he wants to 'continue to explore' vs. 'being expelled from the level.' I think what we wants is to have Mario games be Zelda games.
I LOVED Sunshine! Still my favorite mario to date.
I’d love for this game to get a remake (or a sequel) to iron out it’s few flaws. The potential is just so amazing
👀
Propane TreeFiddy It wasn’t a remake but close enough!!!! I’m sooooo excited for this
So long as Miyamoto is part of Nintendo it'll probably never happen, yes ik 3d all stars is a thing but that just up the graphics and removed gamecube controller support.
_Few_ flaws?
You used TheRunawayGuys footage, and I applaud your taste!
Also, you have a fantastic knack for narration. It flows like a river!
Something I don't think that gets noted often enough about Sunshine is it's improved level design over 64: Virtually every level in 64 was either explictly linear, or was a sandbox, but still had most of it's platforming elements designed along a linear pathway with not much else to do. By contrast, Sunshine;'s stages, while still often designed with a linear path in mind, are much better about placing potential platforming tools and pathways throughout the entire level, not just the main path, to allow for more creative and engaging map traversal. Compare Bom-omb battlefield with Bianco hills: Both have a linear path that spirals up a tall structure, whose summit is the end goal of the map, but wheras bom-omb battlefield doesn't really have anything else going on outside of that path aside from some trees and a few enemies on flat plains, Sunshine has a whole village, a series of ponds and garden pathways, a lake with towers with ropes between them: There's a ton of vertical and horizontal inteerplay between all of those elements, to where you can start on a building on the town on one side of the map, and wiithout ever hitting the ground, platform all the way to the lake, completely ignoring the map but still creatively using mario's jumping abilities and fludd to platform.
Sunshine actually uses the levels being sandboxes to their advantages, wheras in 64 you could more or less trim the fat and only have each stage be a linear pathtway a la the 3d world games without functionally changing them that much. I see a lot of people say sunshine has worse level design or doesn't have a lot of platforming, but I think that's just because Fludd is there as a crutch and you don't /need/ to bother with challenging platforming, even though if you do it's better at it then 64. I wonder how much better the game would be received if it had a "rank" system a la sonic adventure 2 where you get rewarded for replaying missions and optimizing your play so people were encouraged to actually experiment with faster pathing through maps and not just relying on FLUDD.
Christ you are so wrong. The post card is not even a massive issue anyways. 3D Mario games almost never have a decent 100% completion bonus... Plus the 06 of Mario? Please...
Sunshie is the worst of 3-D Mario but it is no 06
DevilKaz Why are you capitalizing almost every single word in your comment?
Sunshine is still my favorite 3D Mario even after all these years.
Fair enough I’ll let you have this one. But just know if you phrased this any differently this would be a whole different comment
@@endr0891 oh… hm? I’ll take it good sir.
@@chuganoga1908 I don’t shame people for having an opinion I shame and ridicule people who are wrong
@@endr0891 fair enough I appreciate it. Everyone has their own taste after all it’s what keeps gaming conversations interesting.
This game for me was the most enjoyable 6/10 I've ever played. Most of the levels were annoying and stupid yet the core platforming and movement was so good that I still had a blast with it.
I like the random disconnected floodless levels, they’re super “gamey”
Oh , Mario Sunshine, you can be incomplete, have bad game design, be short as hell, but I can't hate you.....
I spent a lot of time when I was younger not even getting Shine Sprites, but exploring and talking to the NPCS, watching how the freaking island felt, somehow, alive.....
It has a lot of flaws in a lot of aspects, but I really like the game and I want it to be better, I would have loved to see more of the first beta they showed on 2001, or see all the cut content in the actual game, like the scraped levels and ideas... the Gamecube era games were rushed and cut so bad that it hurts.....
maybe, someday they'll remake it, or port it and the game will have the justice it deserves,besides, Sunshine controls put Galaxy into shame.
God, I’d love a remake of Sunshine where certain level features are updated and the episodes don’t exist. I agree with you on all of it, but most of all, getting a taste of the 2001 beta version. I could’ve swore the beta at Spaceworld 2001 had humans.
Ranen Chancelor Yes,it had humans
Yet nothing of the mentioned is the case.
Galaxy had great controls...didn't play sunshine so not sure about it
The reason the world feels so alive is also the biggest gameplay flaw. Every episode of a given world is actually stored as a separate file with completely unique geometry, items, and NPC dialogue. They use this feature to develop the worlds slowly over time, which is also why the episodes must be completed linearly. I don't know if technology was a limitation at the time, but if everything was set up in a more dynamic way (like Odyssey is) it would work a lot better.
I'm sorry if this is a looong comment, I got a bit carried away. Hope you'll read it since I really enjoy your analyses and dialogue is always good in my opinion.
Since one of the biggest gripes you had is, once again, being booted out of a level, I'll just say how you didn't mention how Odyssey 'fixed' that (since there are differing opinions on whether that's a good thing or not) by not doing that. I mean when you talked about "having all the objectives available at the same time" Odyssey was the first thing that came to mind. But I understand it's not really fair to compare a much newer game to an older one, but still, you could've maybe said that this 'problem' had a way to be addressed in the future of the series. Also when you talked about the blue coins! Even more so, it made me think of Odyssey's Moons.
Regardless, I think this was a good analysis, and talked about some things I have never even thought about Sunshine (we are about the same age, and Sunshine was one of my childhood games so it would be hard for me too to notice some things, being blinded by nostalgia and all that). I also want to commend how you instantly talk about 'deep' (or 'not-surface-level) mechanics and aspects of the game, differently from other people who make 'in-depth-analyses', but still talk about the most basic informations about the game? I mean if you're doing an IN-DEPTH analysis, you should assume that whoever is watching KNOWS what the heck you're talking about. Sorry this segment got a little too long for such a simple point.
About the music, I only now noticed (cause you put different soundtracks back to back) that a few stages have the same lead melody, but played at different tempos and with different instruments, which is a cool idea, and it surely worked, as I have not noticed it in all these years.
Something I wasn't totally on board with, was with how you're not okay with the nozzle-less sections of the game. I really like them and you do too, and I get your critique, but I'm not a huge fan of not trying to give ideas to improve something you don't like, and instead just saying "just imagine how it would be if X and Y." Regardless, I share the point you made about breaking the immersion. It's not something I usually consider, cause I like videogames for their mechanics more than the immersion, so I never really cared too much about them being disconnected.
I also realize how repetitive the objectives get, but as you stated in the video, the game was rushed, so sadly it's clear that they didn't have the time to maybe flesh out the game more, and so had to fall back on booting you out of a level/maximizing what they already had. If the game had a more Odyssey-like structure, with no booting out and procedural (procedural?) objectives, the game would SURELY be MUCH SHORTER and wouldn't live up to Nintendo's standards. Then again, this itself created the same exact problem, but without getting MORE TIME I'm at a loss to find ways to 'fix' this.
I think that forcing you to get to the 7th Shine in each level also ties in to this point, as they probably wanted people to 'get the most out of the game' whatever way they could find.
I never realized it, but once again, I share your point about the whole nozzle point. I only would've added how Metroid Prime used the D-Pad to let you choose weapons, and Sunshine could've done the same exact thing, on the same console, same generation, and same damn year (even if Sunshine was released first). Then again, Nintendo loooves simple mechanics that only get complicated if you make them, so it's no surprise they went this way, to let more casual players not get overwhelmed.
Sorry once again if this was too long, just wanted to share my opinion and let you know how much I love your content!
I never had a problem with the voice acting.
“The best and worst 3D Mario” is literally the definition of Sunshine lol
Sunshine was my favorite when it came out. When Galaxy came out it came really close, but sunshine is still my favorite.
Heck yeah. B]
Hail to the champ!
You set the record straight!
@@adriann9919 p
I totally agree with you. Too rushed for it's ambition. But in a way it hurts more than 64. At the end of the day 64 is a miracle on how it holds up considering it was really "the first". Sunshine holds similarly, but the wasted potentially id way larger than 64.
fluffy_tail I recently played 64 for the first time, so I have zero nostalgic ties to 64. What makes 64 holds up is how goddamn easily Mario controls. It is just amazing to play and run around
The problem with using the d-pad for nozzles is that it takes your finger away from the the control stick, which is a problem when you're trying to maintain momentum
Good point, hadn't considered that. I don't think it would have ruined the game necessarily, but that could be why they opted not to use the d-pad.
I think the way to do it is have the nozzles assigned to the D-pad, and have Y continue to switch between 2 nozzles. You just use the D-pad to pick which 2 you need at the moment, with D-pad pressing replacing the nozzle you weren't currently wearing.
@Amanda Slough That would be a bit unnecessarily complicated. I think the best solution would be to have X and Y cycle between the Spray, Hover, and Special nozzles. To alleviate possible confusion, I'd suggest modifying the UI to show what nozzle goes to what button, perhaps a turning wheel or a scrolling slide with the X and Y inputs being placed to represent scrolling left and right.
@KingK While I'm here I might as well add this. I've thought for a long time (on and off for a couple years, in fact) about the absence of the long jump from Mario Sunshine, and my conclusions are thus: The long jump was removed not because of the hover nozzle, though that certainly gave the developers something to fall back on in its absence. Instead, it was a consequence the design direction of the movement controls. Unlike the 3D Mario titles before and after it, all of Mario's special jumping techniques in SMS are performed solely with the control stick and the jump button to keep movement intuitive and elegant, by which I mean that the movement input is simplified without necessarily losing any depth. They started with the design of the side hop and wall jump in 64 and extrapolated from there, with the new spin jump replacing the backflip's niche. Unfortunately, there is only so much you can do with an analogue stick without things getting complicated, and there isn't really a way to add the long jump without either interrupting momentum, making a particularly complicated input, or making the movement feel inconsistent.
One solution that I came up with is giving Mario a "dash startup" state similar to that seen in Super Smash Bros and if the player jumps during this state then they long jump, but this runs into the momentum and inconsistent feel issues. If the player wants to long jump while running, they will be forced to let go of the stick then start again, making the long jump feel a bit jarring, making the movement less enjoyable. Another example would be when a player does the input of a side hop, that change in direction would presumably be a dash startup state, which would confuse the engine (this one is much more solvable, but important to keep in mind). Finally, most players would likely not be able to easily tell when they are in dash startup vs run, so doing jumps from a standstill would likely feel inconsistent since they wouldn't understand why they would long jump sometimes and do a normal jump at others. Another solution would be to give him a jump squat animation and pressing jump during jump squat while running would cause a long jump. The problem here is that jump squats inherently make jumping feel less responsive, negatively impacting how enjoyable the platforming is, and reducing the length of the jump squat would make the game far more technically demanding on the player. Enough of an input buffer could solve that problem, though, I guess.
Wow, this ended up being way longer than I had expected.
Tl;dr, there's no long jump in SMS because there isn't a good input method for it without throwing in extra buttons, which is against the game's apparent design philosophy.
this game is BEAUTIFUL. like, can you believe the graphics? on a GAMECUBE? beautiful.
And yet, the Switch version will have NO fixes besides the HD scaling.
And I couldn't be happier
@@place_holder2160 ...Except that the blue coins will still be as obtuse. Same for the wonky physics.
@@ChiefMedicPururu ok, I'm just saying that I've never played this game before and would like it to be the same as the original when I do.
Honestly, I don't mind. Sometimes you gotta just keep things as they are. Let them improve the new games they make, and leave this masterpiece with all of its flaws! Or maybe that's just my nostalgia and excitement talking 😁😁😎
Yes because Nintendo is lazy, and greedy when they can get away with it. We all know this.
Holy shit you actually went and did it. I thought you cancelled this series. AWESOME!
i agree with you about hte music. to me, the music can make or break a game. i love games like Kingdom Hearts, Ace Combat, Journey, and even Mario because their songs are unique, catchy, and vibrant. games like Tales of Xillia, Resistance, and Killzone don't rank on any of my lists, usually because the soundtracks for those are so.... bland and generic- in Resistances' and Killzone's case, it's all military. i can stomach them fine, but the music is just... ugh. leaves a lot to be desired.
Yeah I agree. That's why BotW felt a little weird to me. Games like Sonic Mania, the first 5 3D Zeldas, F-Zero, and HELL YES KINGDOM HEARTS are so memorable too me. Those killer soundtracks!
kingofmonsters14 But The music matchs The tone Two both games. Not every game needs to have a uniq soundtrack as long as it is good. But I see Where you are coming
i'm not syaing i hate those soundtracks. i'm just saying that it can mean the difference between feeling bored during a game or focused. let me use Mass Effect and Dragon Age for example: i get bored with the first game easily until the Battle of the Citadel because the music isn't doing it for me. 2 and 3, i am hooked. as for Dragon Age, Origins and INquisition can hold my attention and excite me, while 2 is dullsville.
kingofmonsters14 yeah I Get your point
kingofmonsters14 Kingdom Hearts has one of the best soundtracks I’ve ever heard in a video game
I heavily agree on the music part. One of the reasons why I got bored of splatoon 2 so quick compared to the first was because the music was not really fun to listen to, aside from one or two of them.
Three things I don't like about SMS:
1. Goofy Bowser voice
2. Lack of level diversity (no snow levels, for example)
3. Fight same enemies many times
I think the levels are still pretty diverse tho
This is why I don't analyze my video games, you sour a perfectly enjoyable experience
Great video, you deserve so many more subs.
And I would love a Sunshine Sequel that had the same pacing as Mario Odyssey.
Okay, now I want to see a "Super Mario Sunshine HD" that runs on the "Odyssey" approach to collect-a-thons.
Then it wouldn't be Super Mario Sunshine my dude. I never get these type of comments, why say you want a remastered and/or remake of an old game if you want it to be completely different and strip it off it's identity? At that point you just want a new game.
I'm not saying things can't be changed, they can change some unnecessary things or streamline some aspects, fix a few flaws, and add more stuff, normal things that are part of making remasters/remakes. Besides I'm not a fan of the Odyssey "approach" tbh.
@@Rex13013 I think they meant in the sense of "something that captures the same charm as Sunshine but with a more polished approach" (even if you don't like Odyssey it can be argued that they did some 3d game mechanics objectively better than Sunshine due to Nintendo's wider array if experience after years of making these kinds of games) It is obvious that Sunshine's game play suffered under its rushed development and I feel that it would have a way better reputation if the crew had been given more time to flesh their ideas out (like Corona Mountain).
google super mario sunburn
Welll you’re getting it now!
@@ethanfritts4272 I asked for quality-of-life improvements to the game's structure, and all I got was a stinkin' upscale...
I feel like a middle-ground approach to the game's world design would be optimal here.
Ditch the box system, and instead allow the player to switch between the 4 nozzles at will after unlocking them. Maybe start the player with just the spray nozzle until you enter the first level in Bianco Hills. This will allow for the player to gradually unlock more and more areas of the map as they unlock nozzles.
At the same time, give players the option to exit back to the hub world or stay in a level after collecting a Shine Sprite. However, my alteration to the formula is that, instead of having just one big level, create 3 levels per world.
In this system, the first two levels revolve around problems that Mario needs to solve, but they change between levels. The third level is a celebration level, where everyone is cheering Mario on as their hero whilst simultaneously learning about Shadow Mario.
For example, here's how Bianco Hills would be reorganized:
Level 1: The Polluted Lake
The lake and river are polluted entirely, half the village is submerged in goop, and multiple Goopy Piranhas are spread around the map. You'd be tasked to fix the lake that they think you destroyed. This level would include 3 Goopy Piranha boss fights spread around, a mission to clean up the village a bit, 8 red coins scattered across the surface of the poisonous lake, and the Secret of the Lake level. You unlock the next level by defeating the Goopy Piranhas, which is supposed to prevent them from polluting the lake further.
Level 2: Down with Petey Piranha!
The lake is now clean, but the town is again ransacked. You can free the locals from their goopy prison, wherein they proclaim that the monster on the cliff's edge attacked them while rewarding you with a Shine for your help. You fight Petey in the same manner as your rematch normally, with him flying around the village wrecking the place again. Once he's beaten, he vomits up a Shine Sprite, flies out of your reach, and roosts atop the windmill. If you have the rocket nozzle unlocked, you can chase him up there for a rematch. Imagine the first fight against him, but he can use a fly/ground pound move to create shockwaves across the floor. You can also only hurt him with Rocket powered ground pounds. You can also scour the rooftops and windmills in the village for 8 red coins, and complete the Secret of the Cliff Cave level, or whatever it's called. You unlock the next level by beating Petey in the rematch, acting as a progress check to ensure that the player obtains the Rocket Nozzle beforehand.
Level 3: Keep Bianco Hills Beautiful
I'm kinda stretching for this one, but the concept isn't too extreme. It starts with a Shadow Mario level, with you chasing him around with the residents realizing your innocence. The residents then comment that the monsters in the field near the village are still causing them problems, and ask you (politely) to take care of them, even offering to make it into a game. Defeating 20 or so Pokeys within a certain time limit and they reward you with a Shine Sprite. You can collect red coins in the treetops, and can do the red coin challenges for the two secret levels assuming they've been beaten previously. The Shadow Mario Shine still acts as a checkpoint for the final mission to Corona Mountain.
This sort of system could probably work with most of the worlds as is, though a few of them would definitely need to be reworked to make this work. For example, I genuinely have no idea what Level 2 of Gelato Beach would revolve around.
I like this idea in a broad sense. Other than the need for reworking the missions in some cases, there’s the game-wide challenge of how you’d transition from one instance (level) of a world to the next. A leave-and-revisit into a radically altered version of the area you were *just* exploring would with a new batch of available shrine sprites wouldn’t do to solve the existing immersion problem, imo.
You alluded to progression-gating with the rocket nozzle’s use in the later stages of Bianco Hills. It’s things like this that would make your hybridising of Sunshine work, by creating an illusion of time’s passage before a new instance of a world becomes available. Not only with things like the nozzles, though. The unique feeling of interconnectedness in the game would be enhanced if some of the player’s activities in one world could trigger a new event in another.
For example, say by solving the major crisis in the Bianco Hills 1 (goopy piranhas), Gelato Beach 1 is opened to the player. Access to Rico Harbour 1 unlocks next, by similarly dealing with the Beach’s first main obstacle (the mirror ducks?) Nothing too crazy so far.
But then you send the big blooper in Rico Harbour blasting off like Team Rocket when you defeat it, and the place where it lands happens to be the lake in Bianco Hills, resulting in its re-pollution. This triggers Bianco Hills’ second ‘level’ to begin the next time the player visits it, with new major and minor challenges to overcome, as well any uncollected incidental shine sprites left over from the first instance of the course.
Why do you write all of that? The game’s done, you know? Can’t Change it now.
enkiitu Does an exchange of ideas always need to have a directly productive goal to be one worth having?
I have literally never heard anyone complain about immersion, let alone hear someone develop their entire opinion on a game over it's level of immersion.
Yeah, I don’t get why this guy cares about immersion so much in a Mario game of all things.
Holy shit, this is the second Sunshine video i've watched this week that talks about Toy Story 2 the Video Game. It think it's a sign that I need to play it
Literally on a binge, watching, well actually listening, to these retrospective video’s of yours
The booting out of the level for me serves as progression in a sense. If I could just chill in a level and get all the shines replay ability in a level would go way down. The changing of levels as you progress through each Star makes it feel like you’re completing chapters in that specific story.
I’d love it to be non “missioned” based if the environments were a little more varied and maybe bigger? But if the levels were as they were mission based is way better
always thought staying at a hotel in sunshine would be cool when i was little
The first time I played super Mario sunshine, I got around 18 stars and quit cause it wasn’t clicking for me. Six months went by, and I heard the theme played underwater, and it was amazing and made me return to the game, only for me to become obsessed with it and complete it to 100% and now it’s one of my all time favorites. I just think you have to play certain games at the right time and you can’t force it :)
my headcannon as a kid with the secret levels was that bowser jr made them with the paintbrush to try and trip up mario. either way trippy whacky levels randomly appearing don’t feel like a flaw, but a fun change of pace (most of the time, lol). odyssey had a trex for crying out loud lmao.
We need these great 3D platformers on the Switch. I miss the days of Sunshine and Luigi’s Mansion
Did you ever play Luigi’s Mansion 3? It came out after you commented, so it made me want to ask
SnApple I consider it a 2.75D game. it’s not completely 2.5D like Crash or 3D like Spyro
Well then
welcome back :)
Kinda surprised you didn't mention the camera to be honest. When it works it's okay, but when it comes to a high wall or tight platforming section, it feels the camera has a real tendency to get stuck behind things, like in the Ferris Wheel section of Pinna Park. Feels like an improvement and downgrade on 64's system all at the same time.
And Corona Mountain has its issues too. Like being a huge random difficulty spike which felt really out of place compared to the rest of the game. Like a secret level in an 'immersive' setting.
But yeah, Sunshine definitely feels like a game with missed potential, and one which didn't really know what it was meant to be. Honestly, put the ideas mentioned on TCRF page or Mario Wiki and in early trailers into the game, and you'd probably have a far better experience that takes the immersion offered by Isle Delfino and truly builds something with it. Heck, it even had a train system at one time, sort of like Banjo-Tooie...
Either way, interesting video, and I can't wait to see what your future takes on 3D Mario games are like,
for a game with large wide open outdoor areas you think the camera wouldn't be so suffocated by the level design, it felt like every time I had to navigate something there was some object close enough to obscure it
The game itself could've been so much better if they just took their time with it, but if I had to be honest rushing the game was probably their only option. Especially when you consider how badly the PS2 was destroying Nintendo's sales numbers for the GameCube, they pretty much had to get games out fast to renew consumer interest in order to stay afloat in the console market.
My favorite Mario game
Easily the best for me. Even now, pushing aside nostalgia and my past , it's still my favorite Mario game and probably my favorite platformer.
despite this, there are a number of changes I would make in a spiritual successor if I were to ever attempt to make a game
It’s definitely my favorite Mario game as well. It carries a lot of nostalgia from my past as well. It’s perfect, creative, and fun. Amazing game and fantastic platformer
Seeing you reference the Toy Story 2 game made my whole day, thank you. That game was such a strangely good experience
I honestly feel that The Toy Story 2 game is an underrated gem. It's far from the best platformer of its time but it's faithfulness to the source material (such as the locations pulled directly from the movies, all the main Side characters making appearances in each level, and hell even the batteries Buzz uses the power up are the actual fictional brand used in the Toy Story movies) really keeps me immersed in that game when I played it. It even plays well by today's standards.
I love the secret levels. I like that it’s a change of pace from the rest of the game. I always liked that the 3D Mario games have these weird abstract levels that seem to exist in a whole other dimension. Rainbow road, too. That type of thing always gives me a great sense of existential dread which I think adds depth to the experience.