3 VERY Important Atmos Mixing Tips
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- Опубликовано: 17 июл 2024
- Today I'd like to give you 3 VERY important tips for mixing your music in Dolby Atmos. One is something to consider, one is something to be aware of, and the last is a Dolby spec you HAVE to hit or your mixes will be rejected when you try to upload any Atmos mixes to streaming services like Apple Music.
CHAPTERS
0:00 - 3 VERY Important Atmos Mixing Tips
0:15 - Center and LFE Channels in ATMOS
2:04 - Bed Tracks, Objects, and the ATMOS Plugin
2:58 - The -18 LUFS Rule from Dolby
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My Guess why Universal does not want anything in the center from a film mixing perspective. Because they want it to leave it open for the dialog track on the film. So when synchronized to picture both Dialogue and Vocals don’t clash. When mixing music for a film we just usually do a Quad 4.0 or 5.0 with little happening in center. Gives a lot of space for other things.
Actually, I got a copy of the delivery spec sheet from UMG and the reason they don’t want (vocal’s specifically) in the center is so people can’t lift the vocal from the track and use it for, well, whatever they want lol.
So you CAN put the vocal in the center channel BUT their sheet says it cannot be a dry vocal by itself. So the vocal effects would also have to be placed in the center channel AND another instrument with it. Like bass guitar, or kick and snare as examples. 🙂
Wow very informative love this video keep it coming man.😊😊😊
Thanks!! And there will be. I just got the Dolby Renderer, my PHRTF Beta from Dolby, trial and error mixing my brains out, and the delivery spec sheet from UMG. I pretty much eat sleep and drink Atmos lately lol. So yes, there will be lots more Atmos videos coming my friend 😊
Thanks!
Great video thanks for being.a pioneer...this is the future!
Lol thanks. Yea it’s looking more and more like it will be the future. No complaints from me about that 😀
thanks for this! looking forward for more videos on Atmos
Thanks Jota! I think my focus will be on the headphone side of things for awhile. I figure most of us aren’t installing Atmos rigs anytime soon and will be mixing on headphones 🙂
@@EverythingMusicRecording that's right! I just got my Airpods Max I will try mixing with those and switch to logic pro. will see how it goes lol
Oh nice!! Let me know how that pans out. I’ve been contemplating doing the same thing actually.
Thank you
Thanx, I do what I can =)
thank you
You're welcome =)
Great video Mr Jeff. I subscribed and enjoyed your style. Do you know that there is zero on RUclips about using reverbs in Pro Tools in Dolby Atmos? Whilst you may not use PT, how would you recommend using reverb when we are not just upmixing an already stereo & mastered track, but starting from scratch? I know you can just create a 7.1.2 aux bus and insert a reverb on it and send a signal but what about if we don't want to send stereo tracks to a bed but to an object? Do you create stereo reverbs but if so where do you route a stereo reverb to? You can't just route it to a stereo bed because then we lose the whole point of reverb so I'm hoping you can help.
Thanks. And great questions, ones I have been heavily pondering myself.
I mean yea you can either create a 7.1.2 reverb, a stereo reverb, or a mono reverb. Any of those will work depending on what you’re trying to do.
My question is how does it all fold down to stereo? We can’t forget that Atmos can expand and contract, and many will listen on earbuds and surround bars, etc. So I have been pondering reverb and what happens when it’s folded down? Sure we can create a space and use all the speakers but if it’s folded down to a smaller system it could very quickly become too much reverb.
As for the bed part you could always just put the verb right on the track and then adjust the wet/dry mix too.
Yea lol I mean everything is a trial and error / experimenting situation. In many ways mixing in Atmos is the same as stereo, but then in other ways it’s like having to start learning all over again.
Once I can figure out more I’ll do more videos but that’s about the best “answer” I have right now.
@@EverythingMusicRecording Many many thanks Mr Jeff, you gave us something to ponder. Believe it or nor Reverb and Atmos is covered on YT by a handful of vids using Nuendo or Logic but even then the vids are very basic and I even wonder if the authors are merely giving an opinion based on trial and error. You tip on just inserting onto the track sounds best however AVID and Dolby recommend the usual aux track with sends which I feel doesn't sound clear and far from "Atmos sounding". Happy Easter!
No worries at all 🙂
Yea there isn’t a lot on RUclips in general on mixing it Atmos. More will come with time though I’m sure.
I’m not sure if I’ve even caught any videos covering reverb or not. But I’m sure lots of the videos are trial and error. I’ll probably end up with some of those as well, though I’ll put them across as such. 🙂
Yea I think there are a few doing that sort of think. Didn’t Steve Genewick start that? I can’t remember.
I haven’t tried it but I’ve wonder how it all folds down to stereo (and/or to headphones)
I’ve been experimenting with just two reverbs. One that’s mostly in the rear surrounds and a bit in the sides. Then the second is the same but also goes into the height speakers. Both have predelay set to either 1/128th or 1/64th depending on the song. But I keep the volume on both pretty low so if I check in stereo and turn the reverbs off and on it’s only a very subtle difference.
I have been meaning to experiment with the 3 verbs tho. Just haven’t gotten there yet.
Hey, nice channel.
I am having trouble including the meta data when I render out my ADM files. The option to "apply program level meta-data" is greyed out and when I load the ADM file into a new session, the audio is fine but the object meta-data is missing. Any idea why that would be?
Hi, thanks for this, very informative. I'm a bit confused about what you said about inserting processing after the ATMOS plugin in Logic. My understanding is that when you export your ADM file, it's the "Atmos" plugin that's doing the encoding so anything inserted after would only be for monitoring or actual "bounces" and not the "ADM export". I mean, if you want to limit the ADM file, you have to insert your limiters on your bed and any objects, you can't just put a limiter after the ATMOS plugin on the master. Is that correct? Thanks!
That's my bad on that one. You CAN insert a plugin after the atmos plugin and it WILL function. But when you export that plugin will be bypassed. Anything after the atmos plugin will be bypassed. I wasn't aware of that when I had made the video. I'm annoyed I dropped the ball on that, but we are all still trying to figure atmos out =)
How to mix movie in atmos using logic pro...plz do a video on it tq
I'll that to my "to-do" list =)
Are there any more tips like this? I feel like the problem with atmos mixes right now is that theres such vast inconsistency, due to a lack of knowledge, so in a way its in Dolby’s best interest to try and inform as many as possible.
It’d be great to have a Dolby atmos mixing guide, with info such as this to then help everyone get better mixes
I'm sure there are loads of tips. You could even look for tips on mixing surround in general. 5.1 to Atmos isn't THAT different and many of the philosophies would carry over. As for the inconsistency in mixes, there's an understatement lol, but it's just like the early days of stereo. No one knew what they were doing and it took awhile for the "dust" to settle. Once it did then stereo became what it is today. Atmos will be the same way (if it sticks around for music)
But even with atmos it will still boil down to what makes sense for a given track. You wouldn't mix a EDM track in atmos the same way you would a rock track or a jazz trio. =)
Can you explain why distributors ask for two alternate mixes? In what situation is the Atmos mix not going to be used for?
Music-wise, Atmos is still pretty new. Many streaming services do not offer Atmos yes. Radio, TV, and such, many will still be stereo or Dolby Digital 5.1. If Atmos does in fact become the new standard for music it will still take many years for the transition to happen. So stereo mixes will still be needed as a delivery format for awhile.
I think the reason for not using the center channel is that you get way less side wall interactions from your L+R if all the vocals are dumped into the center. This will lead to a smaller soundstage.
For movies it makes sense having voices coming directly from the screen but for atmos music people usually want a wider more enveloping soundstage
Fair points. The spec from Universal Music (I have the spec sheet, it’s online) is because they don’t want people to be able to rip the vocal from the center channel. So according to their delivery spec you CAN put the vocal in the center channel but it HAS to have other elements in the center as well.
I have been slowly putting my Atmos rig together and from my experiments so far, a vocal in the center VS it being in the phantom center is depth. Using the center channel sounds pushed back and phantom sounds in your face. But we can use this for layering.
I’ll be diving in to all of this stuff into some upcoming videos 🙂
I’m used to coming from a stereo mixed world where you would glue certain instruments together I kick and base if I want to use object my kick and base. How do you glue them together or don’t you need to?
Grab a coffee before you read this lol, but I'll keep it as brief as I can =)
You can glue things in an atmos mix just as you would a stereo mix. It boils down the difference between beds and objects.
So the bed track (being 7.1.2) can be treated the same as stereo (as long as any plugins on your master bus can run in either multi-mono or have a 7.1.2 version. So you could put a bus compressor on your MB for glue as normal. Just remember that you can't spank an Atmos mix like a stereo mix. An Atmos mix HAS to come in at -18 LUFS MAX.
Anything that doesn't need to have crazy panning, or any, is "generally" better left in the bed. (A drum kit and Bass guitar as examples, why would they move?)
Now as for objects. Objects go straight to the Render. So they will never see anything on your MB. So at this point there isn't really a way (that I'm currently aware of) to glue them with the rest of the mix. As for when to make a track an object depends on what you're trying to do. Things that need crazy panning are a given. You also need to look at how objects are feed to the speakers vs beds.
So let's say you are playing your mix back on a 24.1.10 system. That 24.1.10 setup has a 7.1.2 setup built into it, with a boatload of speakers added to it. So lets say you have guitars (as bed tracks) panned in-between the two fronts and the side speakers. Even though in a 24.1.10 setup there are 4 speakers in-between, (on each side) those guitars will only come out of the single front and side speakers, (acting like a phantom center, just on the side of you) ignoring the 4 speakers in-between. An object on the other hand would end up using the speakers in-between.
I hope all of that makes sense. I can go further down the rabbit hole if you need. Just let me know if you have any more questions or if I didn't quite explain something =)
@@EverythingMusicRecording wow man, thanks understood! Studio one have just gone native so its a great time for me to start playing, the decoder defaults to the MB ill have to get my head around what ur saying about the using a compressor on the bed and the objects bypass this. Im wondering if S1 is different to this. But thanks V much for your time to reply.
Since most people (certainly most hobbyists) will probably get into Atmos mixing (at least initially) in headphones only, some tips on getting started in Atmos headphone mixing would be cool. Thanks!
Hey John. No I completely agree. Buying all the speakers and such will be out of reach for many. Either financially, or they just don't have the space to set it all up. And I'm in the same boat. I have my plan and what (If I was going to buy everything today) mapped out, but unless I fall backwards into a giant wad of money, or this channel blows up then it will be headphones for me as well. So unless it ever makes sense for me to put in an atmos rig I'll be focusing on the headphone side of things.
We CAN however though set the Atmos monitoring to 2.0 and use our current speaker setups. It still won't be the same as a 7.1.4 setup, but between a 2.0 setup we all already have and headphones we will just have to do the best we can do. Just might take us a little longer to figure things out is all =)
Not sure if how you explained plugin order is quite correct. According to Apple Support page -- on the master channel strip, plugins before the Atmos plugin only work on bed tracks (and only certain surround-capable plugins will work correctly), and anything after Atmos is completely ignored by Atmos when rendering. (Or, am I misunderstanding?)
But if I've interpreted correctly, then the question becomes how the heck can you use a compressor or other mastering tools on the master channel to compress ALL tracks (object and beds)? From what I've been reading, the answer seems to be, you CAN'T!!!!! (which seems insane, but maybe there's good reason for it that I haven't figured out yet)
Hey Jay
One of the Dolby articles I had read awhile ago worded it weird as well, but since I could see and hear effects AFTER the ATMOS plugin working I figured all would be good to go.
But this is where it gets weird...
So I did bounce a section and yea, none of the effects AFTER the ATMOS plugin were applied. I apply a 100% wet reverb and distorted the track just to be 100% sure when I checked the export file. So I guess I'll have to make my first "correction" video. I'm actually a little embarrassed about that.
The certain surround plugins part you mentioned. It seems to be hit and miss. I don't know if it's a Logic bug or something else. But plugins will work one minute on the master bus, but then maybe next time you open the session they start feeding back in the surround speakers. But if you reload the plugin it will either fix the issue, or not. It's very weird.
So yes, you can add effects after the ATMOS plugin that will affect the Object tracks, those effects just won't be applied when you bounce... (which is kind of a stupid system, why have the effects work at all after the plugin then?)
On compressing bed and object tracks together (which we currently cannot do...) then the question becomes "do we need object tracks?" We know we can compress the bed tracks on the master bus (when the plugins wanna work) but how many object tracks do we really need?
Almost every Atmos mixing video I have seen is "lets make this spin around the room!!!!" and the best way to do that is by converting a track to an object. But at the end of the day (unless you want your tracks to sound gimmicky and dizzying, IMHO) most of your tracks only need to be bed tracks. In EDM and such I could see more use for object tracks and things maybe moving around the speakers more. But in rock, metal, punk etc, I don't see the point. I think thinking of those mixes as more an an "enhanced stereo" and keeping most everything as bed tracks is likely the best approach. But thats just my thoughts on it. But others might want to have their drum kit flying around the room like it's in a tornado lol.
It's the wild west at this point when it comes to Atmos. Like the early days of stereo, no one knows what the hell they are doing yet (just like I figured effects could be applied after the atmos plugin and they would print.... le sigh) so we all have lots of trial and error ahead of us. Lots to learn and even re-learn. Should be fun though. I'm looking forward to it.
@@EverythingMusicRecording thanks for replying. it's all quite new and strange, and so many different possible approaches. I don't think anyone has all the absolute correct answers or best practices 100% nailed down, so I wouldn't feel weird about that at all. I've not tried this stuff myself, but just doing some research before I dive in. I'll have to see if using beds only can do what I need. I agree that most of us don't want instruments flying around our heads, but I also think using only beds might be limiting. Bob Clearmountain has an interesting, albeit a kind of analog or organic approach to Atmos. I expect we'll start seeing more surround/atmos-capable plugins start to happen soon, and atmos will likely need to adjust further for music mastering. Until then, if using objects, it seems like "mastering" as you mix inside individual tracks is the only way. And who knows, maybe that ends up being the best way.
Thanks Jay, and yea, you might be right on that and I shouldn't worry too much about it.
I agree that using only bed could be a little limiting. I think it will just be another case of "use what makes the most sense for the track."
I think Bob is sticking with bed tracks (for the most part). I re-watched Warren's interview with him yesterday and that was my understanding is that he only uses objects when something actually needs to move around. I could be mistaken on that, but thats how I understood it. That and every time I see an interview with Bob and his cat is climbing all over his SSL console I feel my heart start racing lol.
What if you just bounce all those tracks you want to have as 3D Objects with the effects you want the to have on them in mono or stereo. And just use the bounced as 3D objects. Leaves the summing processing question open but still a workaround
I had to read this a few times lol. I get the idea but I don't "think" it would really work, but don't hold me to that lol.
I mean, if say you left all your tracks in the bed and had a bus compressor for glue, but then bounced out any tracks you wanted to be objects so that when printed they are hitting the bus compressor, that bus compressor isn't going to react the same as it would with everything hitting it. Then if you brought those back in and made them objects they still won't hit the bus compressor with everything else. I think what i just typed makes sense... it's VERY early in the morning.
I think (at this point anyway) is to be a little picky on using objects because currently you can't glue them together with the rest of the mix. If you have good reason to make a track an object and don't mind it not being "glued" then make it an object. Otherwise I'd leave it in the bed. Personally I'm looking at objects as tracks that need movement (beyond what can be done in the bed) or VERY specific placement in a setup larger than 7.1.4. Doing mostly hard rock / metal I seldom use objects. But it's also the wildwest when it comes to Atmos, which is half the fun/battle. No one really knows what they are doing and we're all just trying to figure it out. So for sure try what you asked me about, i could be totally wrong and it could work well =)
@@EverythingMusicRecording hey yeah that’s also part of what I was thinking. Things like a compressor and and EQ or even a delay can be printed in that single track. But I was also skeptical about the summing. I’m pretty new to this, only mixing on headphone for now. Just trying to figure out a template for working in music mixing. As I know, atmos on film is completely different from atmos in music.
@zakkzahariev4637 yea Atmos is a pretty steep learning curve. I have a whole template set up that covers everything from recording to the final Atmos mix. It’s my next video but I’ve just been swamped so I’m behind on getting it filmed.
Not overly. The biggest difference between Atmos for film vs music is with film you’re locked to picture. So the audio needs to match screen location. So if someone knocks on a door on the left of the screen but the knocking sound came from the right speaker it would make no sense lol.
I don't know if you are actually listening to dolby atmos music in a multichannel environment, but tons of people are putting kick and/or bass in the LFE and it's not hard to find stuff with vocals, vocal reverbs, bass heavy sounds or special effects in the centre channel. Almost never exclusively in the centre, but sometimes a lot more than others.
Hey hey. I am listening in both Atmos and in 5.1 Dolby Digital.
Everything in the video are guidelines, not hard and fast rules. There are mixes that have things sent to the LFE and/or center channel. There are also mixes that treat things more like quad and keep everything out of the center and LFE.
It’s just different ways of doing things is all. Center channels in home systems can sound off or disconnected, and the LFE channel is doing double duty and both a subwoofer and an LFE channel.
Mixing film is a different beast as the center channel is almost exclusively used only for dialogue and the LFE channel just for explosions and such. But theatres also have full range speakers as most home systems do not.
So again no hard and fast rules. It just depends on what you’re going for and if there are any specs (from a label etc) you need to adhere to for a given mix 🙂
I will stick to stereo and mono. It is just fine for music. Works with vinyl too.
That’s fair. If Atmos becomes the standard we’ll still have stereo around for at least a few years or more.
And hell yes to vinyl!! I’m almost at the point where I need to buy more shelving before I can get more records lol
Mostly agreed, BUT I can't help but wonder, since the vinyl industry is a live and well, what does that mean for delivery in order to put a record on vinyl/CD but also atmos? Will it be the lazy way and let the A.I. fold it down and "hope for the best," or require PROPER mixes in both? So far, I've only enjoyed classical/score music in atmos... rock and metal (which is my focus in my studio) sounds AWFUL in spatial form (to my ear, it's like going from stereo to mono). Cheers!
That’s a very good question Danny. And as someone who buys a good amount of vinyl I’d also be curious. I mean they COULD technically take a fold down from the Atmos mix… maybe it would boil down to the bands budget and whether or not they can afford both an Atmos and stereo mix.
I can’t disagree that there will be genera’s that will benefit from Atmos and others that will be kinda lackluster. I think rock, metal, and such it’s a tough sell for Atmos. Looking at it as an enhanced stereo mix tho is how I’m trying things out. Like a meet in the middle so to speak 🙂
How much ram and hdd do u recommend?
It depends on what you’re doing. Generally speaking though, as much as you can afford.
If you’re recording real instruments you could get away with a little less but if you’re relying heavily on using sample libraries then loads of ram and hdd’s
so will EDM/Trap producers be able to reach the loudness & depth their genres are typically known for? it seems you’d be sacrificing something for such a… detailed sound spectrum?
More or less, yes. It’s just the approach that changes. You can still slap compression on individual tracks. You can also still have a compressor and limiter on your master bus. The only difference is that objects will bypass anything on the master bus as they are fed directly to the Dolby Renderer (or the Atmos plugin in your DAW)
As for the volume thing, we have to keep our tracks to -18 LUFS because if you mixed the way we would for stereo and folder that down from 7.1.4 to stereo or mono it would overload everything. So that -18LUFS of headroom is there so the mix can fold down to systems with less speakers.
So you can make any track hit pretty well as hard as a stereo track, but it just means doing it under a different set of parameters.
At the same time tho, mixes that are a little more dynamic is a good thing. If everything is just loud all the time then there is no loud. Some contrast can actually make the loud parts seem louder and hit harder if there are some quieter sections or some more dynamics built into a track 🙂
@@EverythingMusicRecording Great information here.. i can’t wait to try these new parameters. after years of struggling to find a hard hitting balanced mix i can now expand to different territories but i must say, Atmos has proven to be a different kind of beast trying to use my not so professional equipment .. However it has added another level of excitement to mixing.. i haven’t made a beat since i’ve upgraded. 😅
@309fliteschool thanks, and yea Atmos is awesome but for sure a different beast and in a lot of ways (not all) it makes you think differently about everything.
Even tracking will be different. I’m already thinking about Atmos while I’m still tracking, even tho I’m only working in stereo until I start mixing. Kind of like planning ahead lol
Universal don't want any vocals in the center channel because it can be extracted and used in remixes and acapellas.
That’s part of it, yes. Here is exactly what is in their deliverables spec sheet.
“It is generally not preferred, in most cases, to place a lead vocal isolated in the center channel. Multiple reasons include the translatability across consumer devices and how they behave and decode the center channel. As well as this, we have observed many approvers feeling a sense of narrowing of their vocal because they have become familiar with the sound of a phantom center signal.
If utilizing the center for vocal it would be recommended not to leave it ‘dry’. When vocal stems are delivered dry with FX separately, this opens opportunity to utilize the isolated FX in the immersive space. However, it would be recommended to have the dry vocal supported by its respective FX stem whenever it is presented to avoid it being ‘exposed’.”
www.umghelpguides.com/guides/dolby-atmos-music/
i don't know ask dolby! lol
Consider embellishing your points instead of community talking points without the context. Most of the quick tips you describe have caveats and sidecar information and to make them with blanket certainty is not informing the community of all the important stuff. Unless of course your audience is not discerning and that is your intention, then I will carry on.
I'd love to embellish on the points more, but this was basically just a quick tips video. I'm still testing the waters on whether or not anyone will be interested on any Atmos videos I make. I do hope people take interest. If thats the case I'll make Atmos videos until I'm blue in the face =)
The most square shoulders I’ve ever seen
I’m the answer to the question “what if a Minecraft character was stupid tall and looked like he never eats?” Lol
Top tip for mixing music in Dolby Atmos. #1. Don't.
OMFG LMAO!!!
YEAH!
Lol what do you mean “will be”?
That already seems to be the case, which is kinda silly. But (not all) but most of it seems to be around the fact that quad and 5.1 failed as music formats, and the setup and costs around Atmos is bananas.