Hi Eric, I saw your video, and I mentioned something strange. You told that when the underarm flexor(s) contracts, the extensor(s) also kind of contracts. As you sad, the relation between the underarm flexors and extensors is not the same like between the m. biceps brachii and the m. triceps brachii (they have a real antagonist relationship). Al of that is true, but when you did that little exercise, my mind blew away. The thing you wanted to show with that little test was something about the power-length relation of your muscle. When your muscles are to long or to short, your generated force drops exponentially. When you do that little test, your extensor is to long and your flexor is to short, so you can barely generate any force. The fact that the flexors are contracting a bit while you contract your underarm extensors, is a result of the actual movements the extensors make. The main movement the underarm extensors make is an extension, but some of them (also the flexors) also make a supination or a radian deviation (pronation and ulnar deviation for flexor) . Your underarm antagonist muscles do those sort of movements to anticipate on the movements the antagonist make. So your story was a bit different. Just an adjustment to the info to make the world a better place! Cheers! VDL
I read a Japanese book years ago called simply 'Strength Training'. This book put forward the idea that simply by using basic concentration, antagonistic muscle group flexion can obviate the need for most weight training.
I made a really simple and cheap grip. A terracotta flowerpot already has a drainage hole, so invert it, put a rope through the hole and knot it. The other end can be attached to weights (I use a bucket, as each litre equals a kilo, so one can be accurate). You then have an open-handed grip trainer.
i find it strange that we would work the antagonist in an such inspecific way: meaning no sets and concret break times. dont we wont also to get stronger with this exercise? so thinking of the 3 energy systems. eric, you explained to do like 20 reps and "few minutes" rest. no writing down anything? thanks so much for releasing a book sharing all your superb knowledge.
it's in his training for climbing book. for an uninjured climber, he suggests 20-25 reps and 2 mins rest between sets is his antagonist training range. for injured, lower the intensity and volume so that no pain is felt during rehab phase
Been looking for good training videos for climbing and you've nailed it Eric, great explanation, just bought your book, looking forward to putting your exercises into practice :-)
When you extend beyond the neutral position it begins to stretch the muscle and take it out of an exercising position. Best to isolate the range of motion that is being worked.
Thanks for reminding me of the pinch block exercise, haven't been doing those lately. The reverse wrist curls appear to really help, have been doing them after every climbing session for 8 months now and no elbow injuries since then (I even started campussing again without any problems)
Going all the way down can hyper extend the muscles at work. The goal is to isolate specific muscles, and going all the way down can lose tension in the exercise. Hope that helps!
Are those exercises also good for strengthening the wrist? After a bicycle accident I have problems with my wrist. While hanging on one hand, I feel like something is going to pop out and cannot apply as much strength on slopers and larger pinches as before.
Can I use a wrist roller with a weight attached to it as a way to train my extensors with the closed position(ie. dumbbell reverse wrist curl). I've been doing them a few times a week 2 sets to failure(Usually 45s-1min30) going up and down.
Question for you Eric: are these exercises truly "strength" training or are they actually "muscular endurance" training being perceived as strength because of the overall effect on performance?
I would think they are for strength. I use the weight plate method and as get stronger I can hold more weight. I started off with 25lbs and now I do 45lb plates.
@@ejl74 Well that would definitely mean strength training then! It may also train endurance of course, but if the total load you are able to do a 1 rep max on is higher (which I realize you are not referring to, but most likely the measure you are referring to when you say 25 to 45 lb WOULD correlate with an increaesd 1RM) that is definitely strength!
@@training4climbing Cool. So by progressive I assume you mean inter-set progressions, so say one set of 15 -20 at weight x, then one set at weight x + z?
How does a pain from overdeveloped flexors feel like? I have a pain when I pinch hard or crimp but I don't know if it's because of overuse or because of muscle imbalance.
take a little time off and see if that heals it. If not it is an injury. Usually since there is a pain it isn't just an imbalance because imbalances shouldn't cause pain.
@@training4climbing I had the same pain before covid, returning to climbing after 4-5 months and a few hard sessions later, the pain came back. What kind of doctor can diagnose an injury and help me climb and train hard? The orthopaedic only mentioned stiffness and large imbalances. He said that my muscles and tendons were healthy.
Nice video, very interesting that a wide pinch trains the extensors. How come you choose such long holds (30s+)? I always thought that shorter holds, around 10s, were better for developing strength? Cheers
Climbing is mostly holding, especially for sport and top rope. You want to build strength and stamina, for bouldering you want more strength and sport climbing/ long routes you want more stamina.
Flexing your wrist past neutral position with a full grip activated causes unwanted pulling forces on the common extensor tendon, this causes problems associated with tendinitis (tennis elbow). This guy shows you need wrist extension for your hand to exert maximum strength. He doesn’t explain why, on a anatomical level, your extensor muscles maintain the wrist in a neutral to extended position because when your flexors activate, it will completely curl your hand which is not functional. There co-contract to provide functional strength. I hope this helps.
Hi Eric, quick question: do you recommend these exercises (perhaps with lower weight and more reps) for someone battling chronic tennis elbow? I have been dealing with a very suborn "tennis elbow" for 2 years and definitely made some progress (still doing PT and rehab exercises), but my recovery is at only about 60%. Thanks!!!
I had tennis elbow and it was awful. I couldn't hold a kettle full of water, I had pulling strength but nothing with upward force. It took over 4 months to heal to a baseline strength and then I took it very easy for another 5 6 months. I wore a strap with a pad every day for the recovery time, ice and elevation regularly. I bought some olympic rings and started very gentle routines that would strengthen my arms, these were pulling and stretching exercises that gave me no pain and not with full bodyweight (feet on the floor). I carried on with rings and basic calisthenics and although the affected arm is noticeably tighter still I have stayed injury free, I also got hand pain (ache) which has gone with the ring training. Hope you get rid it's a horrible injury 👍
Can you just train pinches on a system board? Also seems like you could Train the isometric wrist position on a campus board with you feet on, using the "batwing position"
I'm curious from the perspective of targeting weaknesses, is the batwing effect described here really indicative of the forearm antagonist being a weak link? Or does batwinging (elbows starting to rise when you get tired) just mean your main forearm muscles are tiring? I ask because it seems like the batwing position appears to be a position where the antagonist is contracted to a greater degree than normal while the forearm is actually more extended. Anyone know?
Not sure why I'm bothering to answer a year old question, BUT I believe that would indicate more of a back weakness. Performing exercises like active hangs (scapular depression without use of arm flexion on a bar or rock holds) would strengthen and resolve this issue. If you're strong enough, front lever pulls would also be very useful as they work both scapular depression and retraction as well as abdominals.
Why does extending with a band not cut it? I, for example, have a set of varying difficulty "expand your hand bands" made just for this, the hardest band I can't even open fully once. In my situation, can bands be considered enough?
I'm not 100 percent on what your question is asking. If you mean about the resistance of the band, the thicker very resistant bands won't allow to do this protocol
@@randalgordon8822 Do the max lifts version of the pinch exercise. Find the highest weight you can lift off the ground and do like 5-10 reps for a few sets. Then you can progressively overload over time and get stronger Edit: also make sure you're just picking it up and putting it back down, don't hold for more than a couple seconds. You're trying to train strength not endurance
I dont see how the open handed pinch exercise is an antagonist exercise. Isnt that just the same muscles your using whilst climbing? Can someone enlighten me.
To avoid unnecessary shear load on the elbow It is usually done seated with the forearm resting on the thigh and the wrist clear (forward of) the knee.
Yeah, if reverse wrist curls properly done caused arthrosis, I'd would have started suffering from it years and years ago. Coach Eric is an East Coast legend, still cranks hard 5.13 into his fifties, and has been carefully studying the biomechanics of climbing for decades. I think I'll take his word over some rando in the RUclips comments, thanks...
![BLACK BAG - Official Trailer [HD] - Only in Theaters March 14](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Du0Xp8WX_7I/mqdefault.jpg)
concise, easily understood, and free of fluff (and no crappy music). Thanks!
The no music part is key. That stuff drives me nuts
Hi Eric, I saw your video, and I mentioned something strange. You told that when the underarm flexor(s) contracts, the extensor(s) also kind of contracts. As you sad, the relation between the underarm flexors and extensors is not the same like between the m. biceps brachii and the m. triceps brachii (they have a real antagonist relationship). Al of that is true, but when you did that little exercise, my mind blew away. The thing you wanted to show with that little test was something about the power-length relation of your muscle. When your muscles are to long or to short, your generated force drops exponentially. When you do that little test, your extensor is to long and your flexor is to short, so you can barely generate any force. The fact that the flexors are contracting a bit while you contract your underarm extensors, is a result of the actual movements the extensors make. The main movement the underarm extensors make is an extension, but some of them (also the flexors) also make a supination or a radian deviation (pronation and ulnar deviation for flexor) . Your underarm antagonist muscles do those sort of movements to anticipate on the movements the antagonist make. So your story was a bit different. Just an adjustment to the info to make the world a better place! Cheers! VDL
I read a Japanese book years ago called simply 'Strength Training'. This book put forward the idea that simply by using basic concentration, antagonistic muscle group flexion can obviate the need for most weight training.
Definitely key to train antagonist, but weight training definitely has its applicaitons.
Direct, clear and good explained. Hope to see more content like that!
Could you just pinch a small upside down kettlebell? You could even use the handle with a band or chained weight to add more resistance.
Had the pleasure of meeting him and his wife at the Sandstonia wall New River Gorge...signed my guide. 🤠
Awesome!
I made a really simple and cheap grip. A terracotta flowerpot already has a drainage hole, so invert it, put a rope through the hole and knot it. The other end can be attached to weights (I use a bucket, as each litre equals a kilo, so one can be accurate). You then have an open-handed grip trainer.
thank you for the tips. I am just starting in grip training.
Great!
I have trained some climbers, and this is excellent advice, thanks!
i find it strange that we would work the antagonist in an such inspecific way: meaning no sets and concret break times. dont we wont also to get stronger with this exercise? so thinking of the 3 energy systems. eric, you explained to do like 20 reps and "few minutes" rest. no writing down anything? thanks so much for releasing a book sharing all your superb knowledge.
it's in his training for climbing book.
for an uninjured climber, he suggests 20-25 reps and 2 mins rest between sets is his antagonist training range.
for injured, lower the intensity and volume so that no pain is felt during rehab phase
Important advice - thanks Eric!
You bet!
This video was particularly useful and excellent
Been looking for good training videos for climbing and you've nailed it Eric, great explanation, just bought your book, looking forward to putting your exercises into practice :-)
Question, for wrist curl at 4:05, why neutral position is good and "you don't want to lower than neutral"?
When you extend beyond the neutral position it begins to stretch the muscle and take it out of an exercising position. Best to isolate the range of motion that is being worked.
The first exercise has been very helpful for my elbow tendinitis. Thank you!
2:15 I’m getting some crazy crackling in my wrist when I do that... is that bad?
I see you're starting new training videos. Can you do a video on wrist warm up, work out, and -most importantly for me- rehab?
Wonderful explanation
Glad it was helpful!
Thank you!
Welcome!
Terrific info. Tried that pinch exercise today - very effective. Thank you!
Thanks for reminding me of the pinch block exercise, haven't been doing those lately. The reverse wrist curls appear to really help, have been doing them after every climbing session for 8 months now and no elbow injuries since then (I even started campussing again without any problems)
Perfectly explained coach Hörst. I can't do it better :) All the best, Hannes
Ah noch ein Hannes, schön zu hören 😉
this is super amazing!
Thanks!
does going all the way down (vs. stopping at neutral) with your wrist curls not accomplish the same goal?
Going all the way down can hyper extend the muscles at work. The goal is to isolate specific muscles, and going all the way down can lose tension in the exercise. Hope that helps!
@@training4climbing thanks so much!
Are those exercises also good for strengthening the wrist? After a bicycle accident I have problems with my wrist. While hanging on one hand, I feel like something is going to pop out and cannot apply as much strength on slopers and larger pinches as before.
Excellent video. Straight, no chaser!
So, are you reverse curling AND pinching, in each session? Or alternating these exercises?
You can do these in one session!
Thanks Eric, for your reply. Thanks for the vids and podcasts.@training4climbing
4:02 would you get stronger if you had an open hand position using a band or a cable ?
Can I use a wrist roller with a weight attached to it as a way to train my extensors with the closed position(ie. dumbbell reverse wrist curl). I've been doing them a few times a week 2 sets to failure(Usually 45s-1min30) going up and down.
yes!
Question for you Eric: are these exercises truly "strength" training or are they actually "muscular endurance" training being perceived as strength because of the overall effect on performance?
I would think they are for strength. I use the weight plate method and as get stronger I can hold more weight. I started off with 25lbs and now I do 45lb plates.
@@ejl74 Well that would definitely mean strength training then! It may also train endurance of course, but if the total load you are able to do a 1 rep max on is higher (which I realize you are not referring to, but most likely the measure you are referring to when you say 25 to 45 lb WOULD correlate with an increaesd 1RM) that is definitely strength!
strength-endurance...but it will build max strength level if you strive to make it progressive.
@@training4climbing Cool. So by progressive I assume you mean inter-set progressions, so say one set of 15 -20 at weight x, then one set at weight x + z?
How does a pain from overdeveloped flexors feel like? I have a pain when I pinch hard or crimp but I don't know if it's because of overuse or because of muscle imbalance.
take a little time off and see if that heals it. If not it is an injury. Usually since there is a pain it isn't just an imbalance because imbalances shouldn't cause pain.
@@training4climbing I had the same pain before covid, returning to climbing after 4-5 months and a few hard sessions later, the pain came back. What kind of doctor can diagnose an injury and help me climb and train hard? The orthopaedic only mentioned stiffness and large imbalances. He said that my muscles and tendons were healthy.
This reiterates what my finance keeps urging me 😅. Thanks for the knowledge!
Our pleasure!
Eric, I have a case of tennis elbow from climbing and other things. What is a good exercise to help with that? Thanks,
Thank you so much Coach
Nice video, very interesting that a wide pinch trains the extensors. How come you choose such long holds (30s+)? I always thought that shorter holds, around 10s, were better for developing strength? Cheers
I'd like to know this too!
Climbing is mostly holding, especially for sport and top rope. You want to build strength and stamina, for bouldering you want more strength and sport climbing/ long routes you want more stamina.
Does anyone know if a Powerball forearm trainer would work the same muscles as the open hand pinching exercise?
In some aspects it would be the same but the device is somewhat differently structured and as a result changes the exact muscles used.
@@training4climbing Ok, thanks for replying!
Question: Why not use full range of motion for the wrist curl? (ie, past parallel)
That's potentially injuring from what I know, but I can't explain why on a clinical level.
Flexing your wrist past neutral position with a full grip activated causes unwanted pulling forces on the common extensor tendon, this causes problems associated with tendinitis (tennis elbow). This guy shows you need wrist extension for your hand to exert maximum strength. He doesn’t explain why, on a anatomical level, your extensor muscles maintain the wrist in a neutral to extended position because when your flexors activate, it will completely curl your hand which is not functional. There co-contract to provide functional strength. I hope this helps.
NickLiang
Thanks, that does make sense. It’s a complicated joint I guess, normal ROM things start to break down. Appreciated.
when should I perform the mandatory stretching exercises? before or after training?
Hi Eric, quick question: do you recommend these exercises (perhaps with lower weight and more reps) for someone battling chronic tennis elbow? I have been dealing with a very suborn "tennis elbow" for 2 years and definitely made some progress (still doing PT and rehab exercises), but my recovery is at only about 60%. Thanks!!!
I had tennis elbow and it was awful. I couldn't hold a kettle full of water, I had pulling strength but nothing with upward force. It took over 4 months to heal to a baseline strength and then I took it very easy for another 5 6 months. I wore a strap with a pad every day for the recovery time, ice and elevation regularly. I bought some olympic rings and started very gentle routines that would strengthen my arms, these were pulling and stretching exercises that gave me no pain and not with full bodyweight (feet on the floor). I carried on with rings and basic calisthenics and although the affected arm is noticeably tighter still I have stayed injury free, I also got hand pain (ache) which has gone with the ring training. Hope you get rid it's a horrible injury 👍
Most important is Daily routine of stretching with discipline than you can work,climb without pain...
Love your videos, just got a Paperback T4C book from Amazon
I like pinching a kettlebell. Great video!
Very helpful!
So glad!
Can you just train pinches on a system board? Also seems like you could Train the isometric wrist position on a campus board with you feet on, using the "batwing position"
You produce force in the opposite direction when hsnging
I'm curious from the perspective of targeting weaknesses, is the batwing effect described here really indicative of the forearm antagonist being a weak link? Or does batwinging (elbows starting to rise when you get tired) just mean your main forearm muscles are tiring? I ask because it seems like the batwing position appears to be a position where the antagonist is contracted to a greater degree than normal while the forearm is actually more extended. Anyone know?
Not sure why I'm bothering to answer a year old question, BUT I believe that would indicate more of a back weakness. Performing exercises like active hangs (scapular depression without use of arm flexion on a bar or rock holds) would strengthen and resolve this issue. If you're strong enough, front lever pulls would also be very useful as they work both scapular depression and retraction as well as abdominals.
Why don’t you want to let your hand all the way down during the reverse extension exercise? Why stay at neutral?
Going past there takes away the focus from the main function, and is a hyperextenison.
Could you just wrap a hand towel around a dumbbell to do the second exercise?
should ibend my wrist in the second exersice? thx for that good infos
Where can i order those ball grips from?
Feels good to do it, my arms are burning. You also got really good endurance workouts? thnx
Why does extending with a band not cut it? I, for example, have a set of varying difficulty "expand your hand bands" made just for this, the hardest band I can't even open fully once. In my situation, can bands be considered enough?
I'm not 100 percent on what your question is asking. If you mean about the resistance of the band, the thicker very resistant bands won't allow to do this protocol
Will this increase your crushing grip strength
It is more of a protection against injury rather than to build strenght
@@training4climbing okay. What would you recommend for increasing an overall weak grip?
@@randalgordon8822 Do the max lifts version of the pinch exercise. Find the highest weight you can lift off the ground and do like 5-10 reps for a few sets. Then you can progressively overload over time and get stronger
Edit: also make sure you're just picking it up and putting it back down, don't hold for more than a couple seconds. You're trying to train strength not endurance
Wow 50lbs! That blows my mind. I just started climbing and just tried it with my max weight of 15lbs for 12 sec. I gots a lot of work to do.
Did my first 5.10+ today took me two tries after that could climb anything but a 5.8. My issue is pumpimg and forearm gets so hard.
I dont see how the open handed pinch exercise is an antagonist exercise. Isnt that just the same muscles your using whilst climbing? Can someone enlighten me.
you're correct
this guy is small af
Seated or do the reverse wrist curl standing up?
To avoid unnecessary shear load on the elbow It is usually done seated with the forearm resting on the thigh and the wrist clear (forward of) the knee.
great video! thank you.
Do finger pushups
IM YOUR 4000TH SUBSCRIBER YAY MILESTONE CONGATS
5:59
his pinch strength 25kg/50lbs is enormous.
Fuck yeah this was helpful!
Now have a broken pinky! Thanks 😊
Pinch grip is an exercise for closing the hand, you want an exercise to open the hand
I did the thumb pinch form bottom to top and I can say I successfully sprained my thumb tendent. Sharp pain can barely move it. Don't do that.
Skinny Greg doucette
Dont do this if you dont want to get arthrosis very early
only the first exercise
Yeah, if reverse wrist curls properly done caused arthrosis, I'd would have started suffering from it years and years ago. Coach Eric is an East Coast legend, still cranks hard 5.13 into his fifties, and has been carefully studying the biomechanics of climbing for decades. I think I'll take his word over some rando in the RUclips comments, thanks...
Double negative lol
Amazing video, thanks so much
Thank you--happy training!