Somewhere out there, someone with more money than sense is currently buying a Klon to leave turned off at the front of their chain, just for the buffer.
This reminds me. I bought a replica Muff Fuzz pedal from one of the first people to make Klon Clones and he put the klon buffer in the muff fuzz and it's easily my favorite grit pedal I've ever tried, and I feel like I have about tried all flavors of them at this point and I am wondering now if the Klon buffer has had anything to do with that love.
Yes! You know what? They should have a sequel to Guitar is Win video where he buys JHS 500.000 USD First Klon ever, and have someone buy it back from him and in the end they use it for that!
@@rodrigoguaspari9445 Well, we know a lot of players who use it as just a boost, or always on clean tone, and I think we just witnessed why the Klon would seem to improve tone for many, regardless of it being on or not. I have the Empress Buffer, with effects loop, and it works perfectly. Input and output buffers, and it’s made to give the player their main amp tone back when pedals are bypassed. The problem for me was that it was such a different experience depending on the amp and the pedal within the effects loop/being buffered. I think this is why one would someone like David Gilmour has buffers made to go at the beginning, middle snd end of his pedal chain.
Dan’s mention of impedance mismatch shows the root of the difficulties. It’s the lack of an impedance standard in the guitar world that complicates everything. Back in the dim and distant past, somewhere between the death of the dinosaurs and the birth of the web, I spent years in analogue telephony, where almost all equipment had a terminating impedance of 600 Ohms. Any adjustments required the flatten out the response of the circuit were for the external cables that linked buildings and varied in length and conductor size.
@@stevekirby7333 while there are amps with a range of input impedance, roughly 1 meg is fairly standard. (Yes, the resistor to ground at the input jack isn’t exactly impedance, but it’s a reasonable proxy.) Mesa dual rectifier 1meg Fender 1.034 meg Marshal 1 Meg Trainwreck 1 Meg Vox AC15 & AC30 1 Meg Gibson GA15 4.7 meg Gibson GA17 Scout 1 Meg Bogner Uberschall 100k Sunn amps 1 Meg Ampeg 1 to 5.6 meg Now effects loops *do* vary all over the place, both in send and return signals.
Agreed! When I learned electronics and RF systems in school, you always wanted to match input and output impedance for maximum power transfer and reduce reflections. However, in guitar signal, you want a low output Z driving a high Z so it seemed wrong. But, in guitar your not worried about maximum power (V*I) transfer. Each gain stage in a pedal or in the amp is a voltage amplifier. That is until you get to the output transformer of the amp where it increases the current and matches impedances to drive the speaker. And reflections aren't going to matter since the cabling will never be long enough for this to matter. What makes guitar even more complex is that even with simple single note runs with minor clipping, you are getting a signal with mixed frequency components, with each having different relationships to the reactance and impedance. I'm always amazed at my tone when it comes out the speaker knowing all these things are happening in there. But proves the main point Dan made at the end. Its nice to understand this, but you still just need to listen and feel to decide what you need
Just when I think it can't get more interesting, I keep watching and it gets more interesting! I love that you guys do the experiments that we all think about doing, but never take the time to do. So now we don't have too!
This is such a great episode. When I was in tech school 20 years ago. I wish everything presented would have been presented in the context of guitar, pedal, amp and writing code and programming for pro audio. It would have made so much more sense and put everything in a tangible context that still would've been absolutely usable across all industry. The intricacies and variation. The different programming language. RC circuits, buffers, transformers, transistors and gain staging, input and output impedance, series/parallel circuit analysis, etc...all of it would have been sooooo much more interesting with a guitar > pedalboard > amp> pedal switcher > attenuator > load *speaker* > AD/DA conversion > inductive reactance> memory addressing and timer circuits, mic interfaces, I mean, everything I ever ran into as a tech back in the day would've been right there and observable. It's just crazy.
Wow, I didn’t think the difference would so obvious! I spent a good chunk of yesterday researching buffers so the timing of today’s show couldn’t be better! Thanks!!
This was a joke, but I will answer it seriously. Catalinbread Adineko. Haven't turned it on in 8 months, but it is still on my board. I keep meaning to learn some swampy guitar songs, but my muse always chooses a different direction. When my inner John Fogarty finally breaks out, my board will be ready for him.
@@AB-ib8dm - I love my Adineko. I use it and their Zero Point flanger often at gigs. Just need to dial it back like it's a studio effect and not a spaceship!
Holy hell, Mick! I love the episodes when you guys really connect with what you’re playing. Your playing was glorious today. This was a really well done episode. Super informative. Nice work! Cheers guys.
An hour twenty on the dreaded topic of motherbuffers!!! That must of cleared up any confusion now, mind you always happy for the content and the input of knowledge and better understanding of signal chains, why not i say keep em coming! cheers lads
I love the episodes with Professor Dan. I always get a lot out of them. Very well paced and informative, like a well delivered science class (that's a compliment - I went to school for Physics). As I am VERY new to fuzz, I was aware of the "it must go first" rule and then wondered how that worked with the treble booster "it must go first" rule. I am fortunate that neither of the fuzzes that I use (Wampler Velvet and Effectrode Mercury) seem to get all in a knot about being first. The JAM Rooster treble boost definitely wants to be first in my experience and it sits in front of the Velvet. Sounds great. The Effectrode Mercury is first on that board and followed by the Fireball boost which is not a treble booster per se, it is a tube based clean (ish) boost that I like with single coils but less so with humbuckers. Thank you as always for a superb show. You will cost me money, I really want a Two Rock. Is the Flying Buttress new? It's not on the Kingsley site that I could find. I really respect Simon and love his creations. I'm on the preorder list for the Artisan.
As much as I love John Mayer’s and Joe Bonamassa’s playing, I would honestly just listen to Mick play…. I never really could get into fuzz and blues until I TPS came along and now it’s like heaven every Friday watching and hearing Mick’s tone/playing!!
@@kevincaliva2449 Agreed…. I’m sorry I didn’t mean to make it sound like I don’t love dans playing… Dan’s tone is just unique and his playing is amazing, mixing jazz elements with rock and the blues!! So Dan I deeply apologise if it sounded like I didn’t appreciate your mega tone
Totally agree! Blues and pedals were new to me 5 years ago and now it’s a Suhr (Sonic blue w/rosewood neck!) Strat and my huge pedalboard as my mental happy place.
Watch Dan's explanation of electrical loss from resistance and capacitance and low impedance vs high impedance and it will all come together. (2:30 - 4:05) This is what makes this channel great.
50:58. The buffer BEFORE Fuzz affect only when you turn down your guitar's volume. This is because Fuzzes use to have very low input impedance. So If you try to clean up the guitar's sound with your buffer on, it will respond in a very different way if it is off. Try this....Ah, you tried in 52:80 - 53:11. That's it Mick. The Fuzz with a buffer doesn't respond to your volume control the way you are used to. If you guys think, old Fuzzes are the opposite of what is wanted in a audio circuit. Instead of having High Input impedance and Low Output Impedance they are exactly the opposite: Low Input Impedance and High Output Impedance. And this is the key of their ´particular tones. Exception is the Big Muff.
The first minute of this episode was, all by itself, ridiculously eye-opening. @#$&ing brilliant. I won't say how many times I've watched it over the past few days. I will say: decades into this journey, these kinds of "a-ha" moments are a great pleasure--though not particularly rare with you guys on the job! Thanks a million, leg-ends.
Yeah it took me about a week to get it all, no joke seriously interesting how it all works, what help we me is understanding the electricity isn't pushed or pumped, its drawn from positive charge to negative, obviously not any voltage going through your guitar but flow of frequency, the electric guitar is like an antenna positive charge or electromagnetism on the coils and magnets reacting to the oscillation of the strings. Its like a magnetic hearing aid for amp, and now they're getting so old the techs getting better lol, we'll soon have old age homes for amps.... oh wait yeah there are museums for famous stuff artists etc probably 🙄
Excellent! THANKYOU for clearly demonstrating the difference in the tone you can hear using these handy bits of kit. Instead of wanking on some re- parroted BS like so many other posts, Showing and then explaining "why is it so" Great work!
two years after, but I'm wondering if you guys considered the Boogie High Wire. it is designed to be the first thing after your guitar and the last thing after your pedal chain before your amp. I found this episode to be extremely fascinating
That Rat/Tube Screamer difference can be heard through iphone speakers so I’d say that the microphones definitely picked up the difference you were hearing in the room
So I spent a some time with this after watching. I admittedly have ALOT of pedals on my board; 22 with no true bypass looper. Getting a buffer had been on my todo list for a while but sitting down and playing with this I don’t really think I need one. I put a boss pedal at the beginning and end of my board in a looper to play around. I have a Klone at position 8 on my board right after my tone bender. Turning on the buffer at the beginning does make a bit of a difference but as you suggested it ruins the fuzz tone. So while I’d like my first buffer to be a bit earlier this seems reasonable to me. The buffer at the beginning made the biggest tonal difference. The one at the end made no difference because I have a buffered bypass delay and reverb at the end of my board. All the rest of my pedals are true bypass. I do get some tone coloration from my belle epoch when turned on (which I use in true bypass mode) and drybell vibe machine. Buffers on the beginning and end of the board made no difference with this so I think it’s just the preamps in each pedal. Pretty interesting stuff. I’m glad I took the time to get my hands dirty with this. Well worth it.
Man, I just enjoy watching you guys play guitar and talking with each other. It's so calming. Oh sure, the gear is also interesting. But I wouldn't really be watching your videos if it wasn't for you guys. That's what clicks with me.
I am a big believer that you should have an input buffer and an output buffer on your board. You can achieve this by using 2 buffers, one in front and one at the end. I prefer to use a dual buffer such as the Mesa High Wire Dual Buffer or the Empress Buffer +. The other important thing to remember is that you want you input buffer to be around 1 meg and your output buffer to be about 150 ohms. Essentially with a dual buffer you have your pedals in a loop, send from the buffer to your pedal chain and back to the return. The other thing to consider is a dual buffer with a boost feature such as the High Wire and the Buffer+. What I like about this is the boost will be at the very end of your pedal chain so it only acts as a volume boost hitting the input of your amp.
Yeah I have a line matching transformer shure xlr male to ts jack range from 150, 600ohm, with an arrow pointing towards the ts jack marked HI-Z but that's just as it has 600ohms on it I mentioned. I think this is how I understand flow of current or electrons, it's not pushed from guitar to pedal to amp, the flow is drawn from demand from positive to negative, and more to do with magnetic fields for interference or loss or affected signal because componentsin the gears and outside electromagnetic interferencebeing drawn or trying to draw the singal etc all dependingon how well balanced everything is in a rig, pickups are picking up all the strings that are oscillating close to the magnetic rods and then depending on how many turns on the coil of the pickup and whatever rating of electrical parts in the guitar wiring etc pots, capacitors resisters etc- will determine the range of frequency in the signal that's left after anythings bled off to ground. So my question is somewhat biased because of me having a home use setup mostly 90% of the time is used at home, so telecaster/strat- digitech trio plus band creator (guitar in) then with the fx loop on the trio band creator(so I can have clean tones on looper and have the choice to go dirty) so I've got in order from fx send to jhs 3series comp- TC durple- TC bad horse- boss od-200 and then lastly a Gauss tape echo delay- then back round to return the signal into fx return on trio band creator plus. One output to a line 6 catalyst 100watt combo One output to my scarlett 2i2 3rd gen Audio Interface for drums and bass hooked up with Pc and studio monitors. For some reason, the volume levels are all up and down and especially with the Gauss tape echo delay pedal. It says it's got true bypass, so maybe adding a buffer before the time based effects? Or a switch around of the compressor in-between the Two tone city true bypass pedals and the boss od-200 which is buffered might sort the balance out, I'm making up a pedal board about 700mm X 400mm wedge have all the cable routes done and after this video im now considering pedals over multi fx like pod go. Any help would be appreciated 🙏 I'm I stick with pedals gonna get a loop switcher to spread it all out and make it easier to use and set up presets and set up with buffer/s in the best position but buffers have got my attention and now after seeing this video for a small rig with potential to gig... idk is there a way to know where to place in a chain each pedal taking into consideration their bypass setup true or bufferd and how many ohms in each and start closest to amp then work back or visa versa obviously delay into overdrive/distortion sounds rubbish, this making it more complicated. Are buffers like impedance transformers? Hi-Z to low-Z to high- Z Variable or set depending on model. Or more like transistor capacitors, heads spinning mate- I'm just wondering now if getting a loop switcher will help keep the signal if it has its own buffer/s or if its even need for a maximum of 10mtrs to 20mtrs of ts cable. Would high quality shielded cable keep the electrons or the magnetic field of the cables and therefore signal chain from losing signal/shield from interference outwidth the cables? So many questions, it is an interesting subject all because I love a good tone! all elements of the rig will have some effect on everything else directly or indirectly at some point. Think I need a buffer for my brain!... ⚡️🧠⚡️ or a Faraday hat. AWESOME!!!
The sarno black box is excellent and really Will make any guitar and amp sound that much better. Originally designed for pedal steel it absolutely murders as a guitar buffer. Warms the tone up and gives it more dimension Edit: it’s just pretty big but it’s got a 12ax7 in it. Check it out there’s not many demos but lots of big players use them. They are pricey but the interaction with the pickups of guitars is the bees knees
Thanks guys. I've recently been playing around with making boost and overdrive pedals on a breadboard. It really helps to drive home how it all works as you tweak the components in the circuit. Surprising how similar all the circuits are and how small changes can make such a difference. Fun stuff!
Thanks for demystifying the whole concept of the PRS TCI (tuned capacitance and inductance) pickups. Basically just adjusting those values (with the physical construction of the pickup) to modify the resonant peak.
@@adrianhjordan1981 I just think Dan’s explanation was a little more clear. I remember when Paul first explained TCI it made me think that it was some kind of passive electronics happening in the circuit. Or maybe it just took a couple explanations for me to get it 😅
My God! I’m finishing this buffer show now and that was amazing. We always want to see a new drive pedal vs another trendy or classic drive pedal. But my God, when Dan changes the impedance on the Kingsley that blowed my mind.
They kept prompting me to skip ahead to 59 minutes like the fuzz bits were boring or nonsense, when in reality that was one of the highlights of the show for me haha! Love the show guys, keep it up!
It's all actually very interesting and as usual you are a valuable resource. Sometimes I just watch TPS to be cheered up by Dans' enthusiasm and joyfulness, sometimes so I can feel a kinship with Micks' obsessive, self reflective nature, but always to be inspired and encouraged. Love you guys.
Loving it! 80 minutes nerdy spodding on buffers? Haven't even watched it yet and just know it's gonna be a great one! Thinking ac30 in the toilet quality
My only complaint is that Mick chose the buffer that cost $500 plus dollars. Here in my world I’m not spending that kind of cash on a buffer. I use my Maxon 808 and the buffer in my nano memory Man and it really brightens up my tone. I use a 12 pedal board because I might have a problem. Cheers.
Jimi used to use a really long cord and it was the coiled cords making it even longer, and I think that is what helped to tame a single coil Strat going into a cranked Plexi and really, in many ways, aided his tone by having that bleed off. Look up any pic of Jimi playing and you will almost always see him with that long coiled cord. Add to that that most of the pedals back then that he would be using probably were not true bypass and thereby giving a certain kind of buffering there...
Great episode of “that buffer show”! Even after watching all of your previous episodes on buffers, I still learned plenty in this episode! Where in the Klon circuit is the buffer? Input buffer or is it just the Op Amp being constantly in play?
Fuzz being a newly acquired taste to me I recently bought a JHS Smiley (silicon fuzz face style of pedal) when I put it in the "dirt section" of my pedal board I immediately thought it was broken it was sputtering and weak and dying-sounding (they also have a switch on the side of the pedal to also give it that sound intentionally if you want to). I was all set to look at returning the Smiley, then read online it needs to go basivally at the start of your chain and definitely before any buffered pedals. Once I put it at the start it sounded amazing (like it's supposed to) and cleans up really nicely. JHS should have put this as a direction paper in the box, but apparently this was supposed to be common knowledge. Anyhow thanks for explaining it here.
In my own buffer journey I have discovered how much my fuzz needed the guitar plugged straight in, even with a true bypass tuner in front it made a difference. With a buffered pedal after the fuzz and having a buffered pedal at the end, usually reverb and delay as I like trails at the end are doing the job fantastic. My main check-plugging straight into the amp and then the board until their is no difference was a big help. Thank you guys for saying how most of these buffers are great, can’t stand hearing this one rig builder saying there’s like only 2 or 3 that are good(not naming names besides a big “V”, hehe) Cheers!
You guys have done great job at educating people about buffers and isolated power supplies. To the point that now the common reddit knowledge says that you should always have an isolated power supply and buffer! Did you guys know that if you limit the flow in the holes on the hose (partially plug the holes) you'll have enough pressure at the end of the hose so the flow reaches the end instead of running dry halfway! At the start you have a mask listing the cables in feets, but 5 minutes later Dan talks about meters! Somebody will surely get confused! I've been thinking about the buffer thing - that you'd like the buffered pedal shortly after the guitar output. But on the stage you optimally want a long leash to be able to move! You can't get around that unless you have a booster circuit or similar in your guitar.
Mick, it’s been a minute since I’ve watched an entire show. Music teacher on fall break here… You look well man! A successful journey down the mental health path I see. Perhaps something “in your circuit” was dulling your happiness. Great to see you “buffering” that out. Tops to you gents!
Everything that emits a signal has an inherent degradation of said signal. In computer networking, repeaters get used. In Wi-Fi set ups these repeaters do better at pushing a strong signal than pulling a weakening signal. As a result, a repeater will work better if you have closer to the original signal emitter than not.
Greetings from Portland, OR! Thanks for being there and doing what you do. Today I'm staying home sick so...self-care with TPS! Definitely the clearest explanation and demonstration I've seen of what a buffer actually does and why you might or might not want one in your signal chain. I have a small board of mostly true bypass pedals with a Boss tuner in the middle between the dirt pedals and the modulation. It seems to work well there but now I am curious to hear what it sounds like if I put it all the way at the end. I used to have it at the beginning until I got a germanium treble booster which is almost always on. Any comments or suggestions you might have about middle vs end positioning for that buffer would be appreciated.
you are the coolest guys...This got me thinking about Albert Collins , Tele + long long cable + 2 twin reverbs with treble and reverb on 10... no buffer..very happy as a clown tone..
Hey guys, Analog Man ARDX dual analog delay has own Analogman buffer inside.. if you turn the DELAY LEVEL down all the way (for just dry sound), and turn the delay on (buffered) and off (bypass). So you had two buffers in chain (with delay ON) when you tested the smaller pedalboard. Greetings from Czech Republic. We are big fans :-)
Comforting to know we can’t be TOO buffered, it’s just replenishing the lost high end rather than adding magic treble. Still, wasn’t expecting to hear that amount of difference between the different types, yet another tone consideration!
and now I finally understand buffers. If someone asked me what TPS is about and why I love it so much, I would show them this episode as a great example. thanks!
I had replaced my reverb pedal on my little board with a fancier one a few years back and was quite pleased with the results until I got it on stage and had to push a 25' cable. Wow- my signal dropped when the pedal was off with the tails mode engaged. My new reverb pedal had a crappy buffer in it, the old Supernatural reverb pedal went back in after that! Killer buffers in that one for sure.
When I saw that part, I couldn't help but this of Jimi Hendrix saying his tone was a result of his coill-y cables which added about 3 times the length of cable a straight one would have. But he was also using pedals. So not sure how much of that, if any was just bull shit. I have to think there was something to it if He was saying it.
Gentlemen, this is one of your finest shows. Both of you balanced tonal considerations with the physics of current to arrive at rational conclusions. Somehow, you made the topic of buffers fun and exciting. Thanks for your hard work!
Fifty-two seconds in and I already have all the info I need. 🤣 Edit to add: My BOSS TU-2 has been residing at the back of my pedal train since I got the Octavix. Sounds fine there.
I was using my pedals in series and everything was fine. Then, I started using a morningstar ML5. I had a bunch of problems with volume loss. I added a buffer before and after the loop Switcher and it fixed everythinf
First two minutes could end the discussion of WHY, and WHY NOT. Two things have become really obvious for me over the last two years, your speaker choice can radically change the voice of your amp, and using, or not using a buffer can radically shape your your Top end. I can totally see why Jimi liked the longer cables (slightly duller sound) into his extremely bright amps. Without buffers, you can also see why he kept bringing in more treble into his chain (see PRS discussion of their Jimi amp, and the Bright caps). If you have a ton of Treble (…is that possible for a guitar?), a long cable runs can knock out treble, smooths out the bite. IF, you don’t have Buffers!
Except he did use buffers. Mayer tried many different buffers for studio use, with how it changed gain and tone. Though Hendrix’s Wah>fuzz can be heard squealing in some performances, it usually was brought under control, and I’ve often wondered if Mayer ever made one with a Buffer, after they went to BC108 Circuits. Mayer’s later fuzz face pedals don’t have anything to make them Wah friendly, so who knows? Pun intended
@@CorbCorbin Fair points. I am not extremely versed in all the Hendrix gear. Just pulling shit off the net! I’m sure it was a fluid situation, as Jimi was trying new kit as it was being invented! I feel like he used stuff that sounded good to him in the moment? Used his ears. Would be surprised if he was trying buffers. Treble and Louder is generally more-better for all guitar players…till it’s not? Thought the episode was a really useful exploration of the subject.
@@druwk Oh yeah, they were doing anything to get an original sound in the studio. He really used Tape Flange well, and Mayer was constantly tinkering with different things. I’ll try to find the article with Mayer in which he mentions it. He really was just making a point about them trying everything they could think of.
I'm a huge proponent of optional buffered bypass pedals. Considering the fact that everyone's pedal chain is different, having the ability to choose whether each pedal implements an input/output buffer or not is incredibly valuable. In most situations I'd prefer a well implemented buffer to true bypass. But if it's at the beginning of my signal chain I avoid buffers so my fuzz face style fuzz's etc. arent negatively effected. After those fuzz pedals I have my TS9 which is the first buffer in my chain (unless I'm using my LTD with Fishman Fluence Moderns) and i LOVE TS9 single transistor buffers. I use that style of buffer in almost all the circuits I've designed. It works great and in my experience effects other pedals extremely minimally. My klon (I built myself. I build most of my pedals) with its OpAmp buffer effects the tone of the pedals before and after it MUCH MORE than the TS9 buffer. Buffers (all 3 main types) can all be good and all be bad. They have to be designed taking into account the circuit they are in and utilize the correct amount of filtering. Another place I typically avoid buffers is chorus pedals. I havent had a single chorus pedal that sounded better with a buffer. In every case a buffer has hurt the tone of the chorus pedal and the pedals around it. I havent built my own chorus for some reason but when I do I intend on working out a buffer that wont hurt the tone as much but I'll also add a dip switch and mount it internally so that the buffer can be removed in favor of true bypass. So anyways my point is that in my opinion these days if a company wants to offer the BEST bypass it's simple. They should offer BOTH true bypass AND buffered bypass and allow them to be selected via an internal switch. Theres no excuse for not doing that on $150 and up pedals these days. Especially when it's a digital pedal but even with all analog pedals. The pedal companies need to give control to the player to choose the bypass option. If we are free to put the pedals wherever in our signal chain sounds best then we MUST HAVE the option available to choose T.B. or B.B.!
I always thought of a buffer like a damn. The signal is leaked from the cable despite the shielding, but a buffer allows it to build up again to the same integrity it was originally; or closer to it. So, much like a damn stores up the water to make sure that the full amount of water pressure is available if needed, so, too, does a buffer build up the signal to ensure that the same integrity is available when we open up the volume pot. I guess similar to your garden hose analogy.
Buy yourself a BadgerPlex EP Pre (no longer made, sometimes found on classifieds/reverb - made with unobtainium parts), Clinch FX EP-Pre (still made in Oz - Peter Clinch is a great guy) or an EP Preamp style pedal, whack it after your drive pedal and get on with life :) It will do the buffering for you and add as a bonus add that last 5% of magic you've always been looking for. Think adding a 3D dimension to the sound, and a little clarity. I highly recommend the BadgerPlex, owned one myself, magical pedal. Once you have experienced it, you will never turn it off...ever. I reckon Mick would prefer it over his Klon, or ill give him his money back. Plus it has an LED that will burn out your retinas at 500m, so you know its on :)
Really to my chagrin, I noticed that buffers adversely effect most drives in pre positions; I've long put them mid chain, after the drives, and then commonly at the very end. Because I run a lot of modulation and some( short ) delay and verb before drives, I rely on up front Comps and Treble Boosters to carry the signal as far as the first buffer.
If you put a silver label Boss pedal in a pentagram made of solderless patch cables Mason from Vertex will appear in your mirror to argue the infinite chasm of quality between buffer types
Love these tone science deep dives! Two buffers on my main board - Humdinger (after gain pedals) is stellar and a Micro Vent in buffered bypass mode at the end of the chain, keeps the signal sweet and sparkly, then I go and plug a big fat 30 foot coily cable into my Tele. Oops 🤷🏼♂️
The buffer into the Secret Weapon was hilarious. Completely overturned the accepted “wisdom”. Dan (Drive) has done some magic - it’s the new Klon ;-O Some fantastic insights throughout this episode. Most of us are here for this “tedious” stuff - who else would throw an hour+ at this on RUclips. Great work as ever. Chapeau.
The Vertex guy. He’s the only one who would talk about buffers more. He must have 20 videos on buffers. Except, although he says to play with one’s rig, get the sound they like, over listening to _his_ preferred way, he usually recommends the Mesa Boogie High Wire, or Empress Buffer, Buffer+, or stereo Buffer+. It’s usually because they have input and output buffers, and the effects loop. Leave any non buffer friendly pedals at the front, then the rest in the loop, and it works. But the high end difference can be disarmingly different, and one can find themselves trying to darken that tone up a bit, depending on the pedal being used.
Dunno if anyone has commented on this already, but I'm going to issue a hypothesis regarding the secret machine and having a pre-buffer. That pedal is based on a zonk machine, right? I've seen a few schematics for those as well as Mk 1 tonebenders and the the first transistor stage in those circuits is essentially a buffer. So, in other words, the pedals is already buffered at the input, so when you put a buffer before it, it just sounds a bit more compressed.
At the risk of opening a can of worms, isn't that the case with all of the classic fuzz circuits (e.g. fuzz face, tone bender varieties/zonk machine) in that they all connect directly to the leg of the first transistor? Or am I missing something obvious - or does that relationship differ somehow in the zonk machine specifically?
@@cowieson short answer to that: no, that isn't the case :) a buffer is not defined by 'directly connecting to the leg of the first transistor', a buffer is a 1:1 amplifier. it's about the topology and function of that first transistor in the circuit. in the FF, that first transistor is very much a part of the effect/amplicifation, not just a 1:1 buffer.
@@krisdelacourt3977 thanks for the clarification! Bit of a derp from me there; completely overlooking the part where the whole point of the buffer is the 1:1 gain ratio!
In the context of understanding this, would be good if more pedals gave you the option via switch or dip switch whether to have their buffer engaged when they are off. Although as Dan says it isn’t horrendous, there was still a noticeable compression impact when all the buffers are engaged at once which mimics a large pedal board with multiple pedals with buffers engaged when off. I for one don’t really want my selection of pedals to have to be influenced by what buffer it has in it and to have to reject an otherwise great sounding pedal because of what it does whilst off! Of course you can get around this with a loop switcher such as G3 or a Quartermaster but even then it is interesting that it might be worth experimenting turning on loops with buffered pedals (eg Klon/Klone) with the pedal turned of to see if the buffer has a favourable impact on your tone. Whilst I understood the basics and uses of buffers from the previous video, I learned a LOT more from this video which to be honest I nearly didn’t watch given it’s not the most exciting topic at face value. I’ve noticed a pattern though that I seem to learn the most from the videos that seem to have the least interesting topics 🤔 Like that contented feeling your insides have late afternoon when you chose a salad for lunch instead of the burger and fries 😀
Thanks for another great video Guys1 By the way, got my TPS shirt in the mail recently. LOVE IT! Really pleasantly surprised at the quality too. Super, super nice :-)
Great show, as a always nad excellent background information. What would be really interesting in comparison is how the "V.I.B." Buffer from OKKO, with its adjustable, variable impedance and capacity settings, would sound in comparison.
I have an always on compressor (behind the wah) at the beginning of the board and an always on equalizer at the end. Voi la. Buffered signal chain. Always on pedals are buffering. You can't get more buffery than an always on pedal.
56:04 I think, what input impedance the output of the fuzz face sees matters for the fuzz face’s tone. Changing the output impedance of the kingsley buffer only affects it indirectly. In other words, increasing the output impedance of the kingsley only tries to lower the unwanted top end that resulted from placing a (very?) high impedance buffer after the fuzz face. Am I wrong? So I think, changing the input impedance of the buffer that follows the fuzz face would control the characteristics of the fuzz tone more. I have a radial engineering di that has an adjustable input impedance which I find very useful. Very nice episode, thanks.
Sitting on top of the wifi gardenhose, no ladyfriend present, sapping bandwith with her netnix stuff, no buffer wories here mates!!! Facinating as always, best buffet of buffers ever! Grtz!
So good to see Mick getting in the zone again. I know how it feels to be a bit disconnected from music during a busy period or tough mental season, so it’s always good to make a bit of a connection again. Really excellent information and explanations from Dan as well! Great video guys.
Generally, I just try to keep my cables as short as possible. If I lose some top end I just turn up the treble. Besides that, I've never given it a thought in 30 years of gigs and studio-work. My pedal-boards have been very moderate though, with relatively few pedals compared to many other guitarists. Though as always with TPS, this is still good education for me.
I've got a buffered tuner at the front, and some Boss pedals in the middle, and a UAFX pedal with a buffer at the end. And there's a noticeable difference between straight into amp vs thru the board. The high end is still there, but the "liveliness" of the pickups is lost. It's the aural equivalent of looking through glass: it may be clear to look through but it's not the same as nothing being there at all
This may be an unpopular opinion, but even though a buffer can/will help maintain or improve tone, it doesnt really seem very necessary or important in the grand scheme of things. I say that because, to this day, in my line of work, I see A LOT of pedalboards and only a very tiny percentage of them have standalone buffers (excluding the ones that are built into the pedals). In all my years of touring and working for musicians I almost never see buffers on all these massive pedalboards. So, although I absolutely appreciate what a buffer can do, I also feel that they aren’t very necessary and most musicians for many years have never really had the need for it until all these RUclips videos made them out to be more significant than they actually are. That is just my opinion…but curious what other people think. I know the die hard tone-nerds and sound-snobs of the world would say that buffers are imperative, and that’s fair enough since they do actually work, but I just don’t see them being that important seeing as how we have managed without them for all these years and have been able to sound great without them.
OK my second time through this video and what I did not get the first time through is. I need to check each of my pedals to find out if they have buffers in them or not.... Secondly, because I run on my game stage to the front of the app and then I run all my time. Effects through the loop. I may have to put the buffer in the loop. And see what that does especially since I've got a tube screamer. In my game stage
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I can't afford a buffer pedal right now so just put a David Hasselhoff sticker on the board... Can't get any buffer than that...
hahahahahaha!
Well played sir!
Oh, yes you can... ask Bruce and Mike
How's the tone?
You made me want to get drunk and go to Wendy's.
Somewhere out there, someone with more money than sense is currently buying a Klon to leave turned off at the front of their chain, just for the buffer.
This reminds me. I bought a replica Muff Fuzz pedal from one of the first people to make Klon Clones and he put the klon buffer in the muff fuzz and it's easily my favorite grit pedal I've ever tried, and I feel like I have about tried all flavors of them at this point and I am wondering now if the Klon buffer has had anything to do with that love.
Yes! You know what? They should have a sequel to Guitar is Win video where he buys JHS 500.000 USD First Klon ever, and have someone buy it back from him and in the end they use it for that!
@@rodrigoguaspari9445
Well, we know a lot of players who use it as just a boost, or always on clean tone, and I think we just witnessed why the Klon would seem to improve tone for many, regardless of it being on or not.
I have the Empress Buffer, with effects loop, and it works perfectly. Input and output buffers, and it’s made to give the player their main amp tone back when pedals are bypassed. The problem for me was that it was such a different experience depending on the amp and the pedal within the effects loop/being buffered.
I think this is why one would someone like David Gilmour has buffers made to go at the beginning, middle snd end of his pedal chain.
The headroom number is good. I see why all my friends have them.
I have one at the begging and end of my chain. Dont judge me!! and eh and another for overdrive. And eh the spare one in case any of the others break
30 minutes in and I realise this has nothing to do with slaying vampires
🤣😂
TPS VLOG: We had to do 31 broken headstock repairs...
Buffer, the amplifier slayer?
@@AB-ib8dm Thats solid gold :)
You guys are masters of nerdery. This was absolutely fabulous. I needed this. Thank you!
"Nothing really lives in isolation." Somewhere, John Donne smiles.
Dan’s mention of impedance mismatch shows the root of the difficulties. It’s the lack of an impedance standard in the guitar world that complicates everything. Back in the dim and distant past, somewhere between the death of the dinosaurs and the birth of the web, I spent years in analogue telephony, where almost all equipment had a terminating impedance of 600 Ohms. Any adjustments required the flatten out the response of the circuit were for the external cables that linked buildings and varied in length and conductor size.
Bingo!
Especially the input impedance of the amps, which varies all over the place.
@@stevekirby7333 while there are amps with a range of input impedance, roughly 1 meg is fairly standard. (Yes, the resistor to ground at the input jack isn’t exactly impedance, but it’s a reasonable proxy.)
Mesa dual rectifier 1meg
Fender 1.034 meg
Marshal 1 Meg
Trainwreck 1 Meg
Vox AC15 & AC30 1 Meg
Gibson GA15 4.7 meg
Gibson GA17 Scout 1 Meg
Bogner Uberschall 100k
Sunn amps 1 Meg
Ampeg 1 to 5.6 meg
Now effects loops *do* vary all over the place, both in send and return signals.
Great comment 👍
Agreed! When I learned electronics and RF systems in school, you always wanted to match input and output impedance for maximum power transfer and reduce reflections. However, in guitar signal, you want a low output Z driving a high Z so it seemed wrong. But, in guitar your not worried about maximum power (V*I) transfer. Each gain stage in a pedal or in the amp is a voltage amplifier. That is until you get to the output transformer of the amp where it increases the current and matches impedances to drive the speaker. And reflections aren't going to matter since the cabling will never be long enough for this to matter. What makes guitar even more complex is that even with simple single note runs with minor clipping, you are getting a signal with mixed frequency components, with each having different relationships to the reactance and impedance. I'm always amazed at my tone when it comes out the speaker knowing all these things are happening in there. But proves the main point Dan made at the end. Its nice to understand this, but you still just need to listen and feel to decide what you need
One hour 20 on buffers?!?! Who am I kidding... I'll watch the whole thing because it's you guys.
Just when I think it can't get more interesting, I keep watching and it gets more interesting! I love that you guys do the experiments that we all think about doing, but never take the time to do. So now we don't have too!
This is such a great episode. When I was in tech school 20 years ago. I wish everything presented would have been presented in the context of guitar, pedal, amp and writing code and programming for pro audio. It would have made so much more sense and put everything in a tangible context that still would've been absolutely usable across all industry. The intricacies and variation. The different programming language. RC circuits, buffers, transformers, transistors and gain staging, input and output impedance, series/parallel circuit analysis, etc...all of it would have been sooooo much more interesting with a guitar > pedalboard > amp> pedal switcher > attenuator > load *speaker* > AD/DA conversion > inductive reactance> memory addressing and timer circuits, mic interfaces, I mean, everything I ever ran into as a tech back in the day would've been right there and observable. It's just crazy.
Wow, I didn’t think the difference would so obvious! I spent a good chunk of yesterday researching buffers so the timing of today’s show couldn’t be better! Thanks!!
I just wanted to say it's nice to have you guys back at it. I appreciate you all. You're the only fellas that I could watch an hour twenty on buffers.
What's your favourite always-off pedal?
Hahahahaha!
obviously the tuner.
This was a joke, but I will answer it seriously. Catalinbread Adineko. Haven't turned it on in 8 months, but it is still on my board. I keep meaning to learn some swampy guitar songs, but my muse always chooses a different direction. When my inner John Fogarty finally breaks out, my board will be ready for him.
@@AB-ib8dm - I love my Adineko. I use it and their Zero Point flanger often at gigs. Just need to dial it back like it's a studio effect and not a spaceship!
Holy hell, Mick! I love the episodes when you guys really connect with what you’re playing. Your playing was glorious today.
This was a really well done episode. Super informative. Nice work! Cheers guys.
Well that’s it, I need a 10 inch cable.
Or a buffer. :0)
Don't we all, Oh sorry you said cable! I should have gone to specsavers.
and manage to put a pedal board somewhere in that 10-inch chain... and there's a show
That's what she said.
I just wanted to reassure where to put my buffer that's on its way to me. But i stayed for the deep dive, completely watched it. Bravo, subbed!
Welcome Marvin 👍
An hour twenty on the dreaded topic of motherbuffers!!! That must of cleared up any confusion now, mind you always happy for the content and the input of knowledge and better understanding of signal chains, why not i say keep em coming! cheers lads
I love the episodes with Professor Dan. I always get a lot out of them. Very well paced and informative, like a well delivered science class (that's a compliment - I went to school for Physics). As I am VERY new to fuzz, I was aware of the "it must go first" rule and then wondered how that worked with the treble booster "it must go first" rule. I am fortunate that neither of the fuzzes that I use (Wampler Velvet and Effectrode Mercury) seem to get all in a knot about being first. The JAM Rooster treble boost definitely wants to be first in my experience and it sits in front of the Velvet. Sounds great. The Effectrode Mercury is first on that board and followed by the Fireball boost which is not a treble booster per se, it is a tube based clean (ish) boost that I like with single coils but less so with humbuckers. Thank you as always for a superb show. You will cost me money, I really want a Two Rock.
Is the Flying Buttress new? It's not on the Kingsley site that I could find. I really respect Simon and love his creations. I'm on the preorder list for the Artisan.
Thanks Ross! Yeah, we’re not sure if Simon is putting the Flying Butress into production. Good to hear from you man, all the best!
As much as I love John Mayer’s and Joe Bonamassa’s playing, I would honestly just listen to Mick play…. I never really could get into fuzz and blues until I TPS came along and now it’s like heaven every Friday watching and hearing Mick’s tone/playing!!
Agreed......... Although, I like Dan's playing, too!!
@@kevincaliva2449 Agreed…. I’m sorry I didn’t mean to make it sound like I don’t love dans playing… Dan’s tone is just unique and his playing is amazing, mixing jazz elements with rock and the blues!!
So Dan I deeply apologise if it sounded like I didn’t appreciate your mega tone
Agreed. I love his work on all the Lethal Weapon movies!
Totally agree! Blues and pedals were new to me 5 years ago and now it’s a Suhr (Sonic blue w/rosewood neck!) Strat and my huge pedalboard as my mental happy place.
Watch Dan's explanation of electrical loss from resistance and capacitance and low impedance vs high impedance and it will all come together. (2:30 - 4:05) This is what makes this channel great.
Best an definitive all you need to know about buffer! Thks!!!
Our pleasure 👍
50:58. The buffer BEFORE Fuzz affect only when you turn down your guitar's volume. This is because Fuzzes use to have very low input impedance. So If you try to clean up the guitar's sound with your buffer on, it will respond in a very different way if it is off. Try this....Ah, you tried in 52:80 - 53:11. That's it Mick. The Fuzz with a buffer doesn't respond to your volume control the way you are used to. If you guys think, old Fuzzes are the opposite of what is wanted in a audio circuit. Instead of having High Input impedance and Low Output Impedance they are exactly the opposite: Low Input Impedance and High Output Impedance. And this is the key of their ´particular tones. Exception is the Big Muff.
Agree’d, the big muff isn’t really a fuzz in the way i think of a fuzz.
@@Tony-Jabroni Yes. Is is already buffered in some sort.👍
Wow, I’ve just watched this 81 minute video, and feel that I want to watch it again. Thank you!
The first minute of this episode was, all by itself, ridiculously eye-opening. @#$&ing brilliant. I won't say how many times I've watched it over the past few days. I will say: decades into this journey, these kinds of "a-ha" moments are a great pleasure--though not particularly rare with you guys on the job! Thanks a million, leg-ends.
Yeah it took me about a week to get it all, no joke seriously interesting how it all works, what help we me is understanding the electricity isn't pushed or pumped, its drawn from positive charge to negative, obviously not any voltage going through your guitar but flow of frequency, the electric guitar is like an antenna positive charge or electromagnetism on the coils and magnets reacting to the oscillation of the strings. Its like a magnetic hearing aid for amp, and now they're getting so old the techs getting better lol, we'll soon have old age homes for amps.... oh wait yeah there are museums for famous stuff artists etc probably 🙄
Excellent! THANKYOU for clearly demonstrating the difference in the tone you can hear using these handy bits of kit. Instead of wanking on some re- parroted BS like so many other posts, Showing and then explaining "why is it so" Great work!
I am one of those guys that likes what a really long cable does to my tone. You can keep your buffer, lol.*
Love you two!
two years after, but I'm wondering if you guys considered the Boogie High Wire. it is designed to be the first thing after your guitar and the last thing after your pedal chain before your amp. I found this episode to be extremely fascinating
The part about pickup inductance etc reminded me that Mark Foley always talked about inductance as well as output for his pickups.
That Rat/Tube Screamer difference can be heard through iphone speakers so I’d say that the microphones definitely picked up the difference you were hearing in the room
So I spent a some time with this after watching. I admittedly have ALOT of pedals on my board; 22 with no true bypass looper. Getting a buffer had been on my todo list for a while but sitting down and playing with this I don’t really think I need one. I put a boss pedal at the beginning and end of my board in a looper to play around. I have a Klone at position 8 on my board right after my tone bender. Turning on the buffer at the beginning does make a bit of a difference but as you suggested it ruins the fuzz tone. So while I’d like my first buffer to be a bit earlier this seems reasonable to me. The buffer at the beginning made the biggest tonal difference. The one at the end made no difference because I have a buffered bypass delay and reverb at the end of my board. All the rest of my pedals are true bypass. I do get some tone coloration from my belle epoch when turned on (which I use in true bypass mode) and drybell vibe machine. Buffers on the beginning and end of the board made no difference with this so I think it’s just the preamps in each pedal. Pretty interesting stuff. I’m glad I took the time to get my hands dirty with this. Well worth it.
Man, I just enjoy watching you guys play guitar and talking with each other. It's so calming. Oh sure, the gear is also interesting. But I wouldn't really be watching your videos if it wasn't for you guys. That's what clicks with me.
I am a big believer that you should have an input buffer and an output buffer on your board. You can achieve this by using 2 buffers, one in front and one at the end. I prefer to use a dual buffer such as the Mesa High Wire Dual Buffer or the Empress Buffer +. The other important thing to remember is that you want you input buffer to be around 1 meg and your output buffer to be about 150 ohms. Essentially with a dual buffer you have your pedals in a loop, send from the buffer to your pedal chain and back to the return. The other thing to consider is a dual buffer with a boost feature such as the High Wire and the Buffer+. What I like about this is the boost will be at the very end of your pedal chain so it only acts as a volume boost hitting the input of your amp.
Yeah I have a line matching transformer shure xlr male to ts jack range from 150, 600ohm, with an arrow pointing towards the ts jack marked HI-Z but that's just as it has 600ohms on it I mentioned.
I think this is how I understand flow of current or electrons, it's not pushed from guitar to pedal to amp, the flow is drawn from demand from positive to negative, and more to do with magnetic fields for interference or loss or affected signal because componentsin the gears and outside electromagnetic interferencebeing drawn or trying to draw the singal etc all dependingon how well balanced everything is in a rig, pickups are picking up all the strings that are oscillating close to the magnetic rods and then depending on how many turns on the coil of the pickup and whatever rating of electrical parts in the guitar wiring etc pots, capacitors resisters etc- will determine the range of frequency in the signal that's left after anythings bled off to ground.
So my question is somewhat biased because of me having a home use setup mostly 90% of the time is used at home, so telecaster/strat- digitech trio plus band creator (guitar in) then with the fx loop on the trio band creator(so I can have clean tones on looper and have the choice to go dirty) so I've got in order from fx send to jhs 3series comp- TC durple- TC bad horse- boss od-200 and then lastly a Gauss tape echo delay- then back round to return the signal into fx return on trio band creator plus.
One output to a line 6 catalyst 100watt combo
One output to my scarlett 2i2 3rd gen Audio Interface for drums and bass hooked up with Pc and studio monitors.
For some reason, the volume levels are all up and down and especially with the Gauss tape echo delay pedal. It says it's got true bypass, so maybe adding a buffer before the time based effects? Or a switch around of the compressor in-between the Two tone city true bypass pedals and the boss od-200 which is buffered might sort the balance out, I'm making up a pedal board about 700mm X 400mm wedge have all the cable routes done and after this video im now considering pedals over multi fx like pod go.
Any help would be appreciated 🙏
I'm I stick with pedals gonna get a loop switcher to spread it all out and make it easier to use and set up presets and set up with buffer/s in the best position but buffers have got my attention and now after seeing this video for a small rig with potential to gig... idk is there a way to know where to place in a chain each pedal taking into consideration their bypass setup true or bufferd and how many ohms in each and start closest to amp then work back or visa versa obviously delay into overdrive/distortion sounds rubbish, this making it more complicated.
Are buffers like impedance transformers?
Hi-Z to low-Z to high- Z Variable or set depending on model. Or more like transistor capacitors, heads spinning mate-
I'm just wondering now if getting a loop switcher will help keep the signal if it has its own buffer/s or if its even need for a maximum of 10mtrs to 20mtrs of ts cable.
Would high quality shielded cable keep the electrons or the magnetic field of the cables and therefore signal chain from losing signal/shield from interference outwidth the cables?
So many questions, it is an interesting subject all because I love a good tone! all elements of the rig will have some effect on everything else directly or indirectly at some point.
Think I need a buffer for my brain!...
⚡️🧠⚡️ or a Faraday hat.
AWESOME!!!
The sarno black box is excellent and really
Will make any guitar and amp sound that much better. Originally designed for pedal steel it absolutely murders as a guitar buffer. Warms the tone up and gives it more dimension
Edit: it’s just pretty big but it’s got a 12ax7 in it. Check it out there’s not many demos but lots of big players use them. They are pricey but the interaction with the pickups of guitars is the bees knees
Thanks guys. I've recently been playing around with making boost and overdrive pedals on a breadboard. It really helps to drive home how it all works as you tweak the components in the circuit. Surprising how similar all the circuits are and how small changes can make such a difference. Fun stuff!
Thanks for demystifying the whole concept of the PRS TCI (tuned capacitance and inductance) pickups. Basically just adjusting those values (with the physical construction of the pickup) to modify the resonant peak.
I mean Paul had already admitted as much.
@@adrianhjordan1981 I just think Dan’s explanation was a little more clear. I remember when Paul first explained TCI it made me think that it was some kind of passive electronics happening in the circuit. Or maybe it just took a couple explanations for me to get it 😅
My God! I’m finishing this buffer show now and that was amazing. We always want to see a new drive pedal vs another trendy or classic drive pedal. But my God, when Dan changes the impedance on the Kingsley that blowed my mind.
When you turn on That pedal Show and your wearing the same T shirt as Mick and holding a sonic blue strat....
Yay! Nice one Toby!
Hilarious!
Currently 2 minutes in, hoping we get a return of the impy dance…
+1
I was waiting for it! Haha
Oh man forgot about that, guess they did too! DAmn
They kept prompting me to skip ahead to 59 minutes like the fuzz bits were boring or nonsense, when in reality that was one of the highlights of the show for me haha! Love the show guys, keep it up!
It's all actually very interesting and as usual you are a valuable resource. Sometimes I just watch TPS to be cheered up by Dans' enthusiasm and joyfulness, sometimes so I can feel a kinship with Micks' obsessive, self reflective nature, but always to be inspired and encouraged. Love you guys.
You guys are so special to me, Thanks for all the knowledge
Loving it! 80 minutes nerdy spodding on buffers? Haven't even watched it yet and just know it's gonna be a great one! Thinking ac30 in the toilet quality
I'm only a minute in and it's already been fully explained!🤣
I really loved the long and tedious fuzz section!
My only complaint is that Mick chose the buffer that cost $500 plus dollars. Here in my world I’m not spending that kind of cash on a buffer. I use my Maxon 808 and the buffer in my nano memory Man and it really brightens up my tone. I use a 12 pedal board because I might have a problem. Cheers.
Great show!! But I lost you after you said Dan here, Mick here.
Mic “You mean I spent all this money for my guitar to sound worse?” Dan “ Yep, so lets spend more money”
Jimi used to use a really long cord and it was the coiled cords making it even longer, and I think that is what helped to tame a single coil Strat going into a cranked Plexi and really, in many ways, aided his tone by having that bleed off. Look up any pic of Jimi playing and you will almost always see him with that long coiled cord. Add to that that most of the pedals back then that he would be using probably were not true bypass and thereby giving a certain kind of buffering there...
I think we talked a bit about that. And if we didn’t, we usually do!
Not one single Impy Dance. Not a low Impy Dance or even a high Impy Dance. (joking aside, this is a video I very much needed to see, thank you!!)
Love the visualisation without the buffer, and the smaller arrow coming out the end of the pipe.
This is my life now. Poor adobe illustrator skills to translate Danese. Mick here. :0)
Very informative!
Great episode of “that buffer show”! Even after watching all of your previous episodes on buffers, I still learned plenty in this episode!
Where in the Klon circuit is the buffer? Input buffer or is it just the Op Amp being constantly in play?
Fuzz being a newly acquired taste to me I recently bought a JHS Smiley (silicon fuzz face style of pedal) when I put it in the "dirt section" of my pedal board I immediately thought it was broken it was sputtering and weak and dying-sounding (they also have a switch on the side of the pedal to also give it that sound intentionally if you want to). I was all set to look at returning the Smiley, then read online it needs to go basivally at the start of your chain and definitely before any buffered pedals. Once I put it at the start it sounded amazing (like it's supposed to) and cleans up really nicely. JHS should have put this as a direction paper in the box, but apparently this was supposed to be common knowledge. Anyhow thanks for explaining it here.
Such a great episode! So much to learn, so fascinating! Well done guys!
In my own buffer journey I have discovered how much my fuzz needed the guitar plugged straight in, even with a true bypass tuner in front it made a difference. With a buffered pedal after the fuzz and having a buffered pedal at the end, usually reverb and delay as I like trails at the end are doing the job fantastic. My main check-plugging straight into the amp and then the board until their is no difference was a big help. Thank you guys for saying how most of these buffers are great, can’t stand hearing this one rig builder saying there’s like only 2 or 3 that are good(not naming names besides a big “V”, hehe) Cheers!
You guys have done great job at educating people about buffers and isolated power supplies. To the point that now the common reddit knowledge says that you should always have an isolated power supply and buffer!
Did you guys know that if you limit the flow in the holes on the hose (partially plug the holes) you'll have enough pressure at the end of the hose so the flow reaches the end instead of running dry halfway!
At the start you have a mask listing the cables in feets, but 5 minutes later Dan talks about meters! Somebody will surely get confused!
I've been thinking about the buffer thing - that you'd like the buffered pedal shortly after the guitar output. But on the stage you optimally want a long leash to be able to move! You can't get around that unless you have a booster circuit or similar in your guitar.
Mick, it’s been a minute since I’ve watched an entire show. Music teacher on fall break here…
You look well man! A successful journey down the mental health path I see. Perhaps something “in your circuit” was dulling your happiness. Great to see you “buffering” that out.
Tops to you gents!
Everything that emits a signal has an inherent degradation of said signal. In computer networking, repeaters get used. In Wi-Fi set ups these repeaters do better at pushing a strong signal than pulling a weakening signal. As a result, a repeater will work better if you have closer to the original signal emitter than not.
Greetings from Portland, OR! Thanks for being there and doing what you do. Today I'm staying home sick so...self-care with TPS! Definitely the clearest explanation and demonstration I've seen of what a buffer actually does and why you might or might not want one in your signal chain. I have a small board of mostly true bypass pedals with a Boss tuner in the middle between the dirt pedals and the modulation. It seems to work well there but now I am curious to hear what it sounds like if I put it all the way at the end. I used to have it at the beginning until I got a germanium treble booster which is almost always on. Any comments or suggestions you might have about middle vs end positioning for that buffer would be appreciated.
you are the coolest guys...This got me thinking about Albert Collins , Tele + long long cable + 2 twin reverbs with treble and reverb on 10... no buffer..very happy as a clown tone..
Man! I love you guys. Even my shite ears heard the examples you shared. Oi! Glad I have my buffers! Rock on fellas.
Very enlightening episode; buffers tend to be quite overlooked and under appreciated, in my humble opinion
Hey guys, Analog Man ARDX dual analog delay has own Analogman buffer inside.. if you turn the DELAY LEVEL down all the way (for just dry sound), and turn the delay on (buffered) and off (bypass). So you had two buffers in chain (with delay ON) when you tested the smaller pedalboard. Greetings from Czech Republic. We are big fans :-)
Old wahs and old fuzz types I put the Fender buffer after those. 100k output is the sweet spot.
Comforting to know we can’t be TOO buffered, it’s just replenishing the lost high end rather than adding magic treble. Still, wasn’t expecting to hear that amount of difference between the different types, yet another tone consideration!
and now I finally understand buffers. If someone asked me what TPS is about and why I love it so much, I would show them this episode as a great example. thanks!
Thanks Matt 🤓🙏
The "tedious" parts are always the best ones! hahahaha
Love you guys!
PS: the DB meter hit 112, I think that's a record, isn't it?
We need a follow up episode where you compare the bypass buffers of various klones vs your original Centaur 😂
Just kill me now. Mick here. :0)
I had replaced my reverb pedal on my little board with a fancier one a few years back and was quite pleased with the results until I got it on stage and had to push a 25' cable. Wow- my signal dropped when the pedal was off with the tails mode engaged. My new reverb pedal had a crappy buffer in it, the old Supernatural reverb pedal went back in after that! Killer buffers in that one for sure.
And btw- I'm a tech and your description of the circuit Z science is spot on- great presentation!
Waits to see how many people liked the 60-ft cable with no buffer...
Seems like a good idea to me.
When I saw that part, I couldn't help but this of Jimi Hendrix saying his tone was a result of his coill-y cables which added about 3 times the length of cable a straight one would have. But he was also using pedals. So not sure how much of that, if any was just bull shit. I have to think there was something to it if He was saying it.
Gentlemen, this is one of your finest shows. Both of you balanced tonal considerations with the physics of current to arrive at rational conclusions. Somehow, you made the topic of buffers fun and exciting. Thanks for your hard work!
Damn, at last ! someone who makes the actual comparison of long cables vs short cables
Fifty-two seconds in and I already have all the info I need. 🤣 Edit to add: My BOSS TU-2 has been residing at the back of my pedal train since I got the Octavix. Sounds fine there.
That's what we were hoping!
I’m 2mins in, I’ve learnt something crucial to good tone, and had a laugh. Thats classic TPS and why I keep returning to the channel. Love you guys.
You need to get Dan a white lab coat when he's doing his 'Doctor Dan' segments...haha!
I was using my pedals in series and everything was fine. Then, I started using a morningstar ML5. I had a bunch of problems with volume loss. I added a buffer before and after the loop Switcher and it fixed everythinf
Mick's playing this episode is ACE!!!!
Thank you!
First two minutes could end the discussion of WHY, and WHY NOT. Two things have become really obvious for me over the last two years, your speaker choice can radically change the voice of your amp, and using, or not using a buffer can radically shape your your Top end.
I can totally see why Jimi liked the longer cables (slightly duller sound) into his extremely bright amps. Without buffers, you can also see why he kept bringing in more treble into his chain (see PRS discussion of their Jimi amp, and the Bright caps).
If you have a ton of Treble (…is that possible for a guitar?), a long cable runs can knock out treble, smooths out the bite. IF, you don’t have Buffers!
Except he did use buffers. Mayer tried many different buffers for studio use, with how it changed gain and tone. Though Hendrix’s Wah>fuzz can be heard squealing in some performances, it usually was brought under control, and I’ve often wondered if Mayer ever made one with a Buffer, after they went to BC108 Circuits.
Mayer’s later fuzz face pedals don’t have anything to make them Wah friendly, so who knows? Pun intended
@@CorbCorbin Fair points. I am not extremely versed in all the Hendrix gear. Just pulling shit off the net!
I’m sure it was a fluid situation, as Jimi was trying new kit as it was being invented! I feel like he used stuff that sounded good to him in the moment? Used his ears. Would be surprised if he was trying buffers.
Treble and Louder is generally more-better for all guitar players…till it’s not? Thought the episode was a really useful exploration of the subject.
@@druwk
Oh yeah, they were doing anything to get an original sound in the studio. He really used Tape Flange well, and Mayer was constantly tinkering with different things.
I’ll try to find the article with Mayer in which he mentions it. He really was just making a point about them trying everything they could think of.
I'm a huge proponent of optional buffered bypass pedals. Considering the fact that everyone's pedal chain is different, having the ability to choose whether each pedal implements an input/output buffer or not is incredibly valuable. In most situations I'd prefer a well implemented buffer to true bypass. But if it's at the beginning of my signal chain I avoid buffers so my fuzz face style fuzz's etc. arent negatively effected. After those fuzz pedals I have my TS9 which is the first buffer in my chain (unless I'm using my LTD with Fishman Fluence Moderns) and i LOVE TS9 single transistor buffers. I use that style of buffer in almost all the circuits I've designed. It works great and in my experience effects other pedals extremely minimally. My klon (I built myself. I build most of my pedals) with its OpAmp buffer effects the tone of the pedals before and after it MUCH MORE than the TS9 buffer. Buffers (all 3 main types) can all be good and all be bad. They have to be designed taking into account the circuit they are in and utilize the correct amount of filtering. Another place I typically avoid buffers is chorus pedals. I havent had a single chorus pedal that sounded better with a buffer. In every case a buffer has hurt the tone of the chorus pedal and the pedals around it. I havent built my own chorus for some reason but when I do I intend on working out a buffer that wont hurt the tone as much but I'll also add a dip switch and mount it internally so that the buffer can be removed in favor of true bypass. So anyways my point is that in my opinion these days if a company wants to offer the BEST bypass it's simple. They should offer BOTH true bypass AND buffered bypass and allow them to be selected via an internal switch. Theres no excuse for not doing that on $150 and up pedals these days. Especially when it's a digital pedal but even with all analog pedals. The pedal companies need to give control to the player to choose the bypass option. If we are free to put the pedals wherever in our signal chain sounds best then we MUST HAVE the option available to choose T.B. or B.B.!
Couldn’t agree more 👍
I always thought of a buffer like a damn. The signal is leaked from the cable despite the shielding, but a buffer allows it to build up again to the same integrity it was originally; or closer to it. So, much like a damn stores up the water to make sure that the full amount of water pressure is available if needed, so, too, does a buffer build up the signal to ensure that the same integrity is available when we open up the volume pot. I guess similar to your garden hose analogy.
Buy yourself a BadgerPlex EP Pre (no longer made, sometimes found on classifieds/reverb - made with unobtainium parts), Clinch FX EP-Pre (still made in Oz - Peter Clinch is a great guy) or an EP Preamp style pedal, whack it after your drive pedal and get on with life :) It will do the buffering for you and add as a bonus add that last 5% of magic you've always been looking for. Think adding a 3D dimension to the sound, and a little clarity. I highly recommend the BadgerPlex, owned one myself, magical pedal. Once you have experienced it, you will never turn it off...ever. I reckon Mick would prefer it over his Klon, or ill give him his money back. Plus it has an LED that will burn out your retinas at 500m, so you know its on :)
Really to my chagrin, I noticed that buffers adversely effect most drives in pre positions; I've long put them mid chain, after the drives, and then commonly at the very end.
Because I run a lot of modulation and some( short ) delay and verb before drives, I rely on up front Comps and Treble Boosters to carry the signal as far as the first buffer.
If you put a silver label Boss pedal in a pentagram made of solderless patch cables Mason from Vertex will appear in your mirror to argue the infinite chasm of quality between buffer types
Bruh 😂
Love these tone science deep dives! Two buffers on my main board - Humdinger (after gain pedals) is stellar and a Micro Vent in buffered bypass mode at the end of the chain, keeps the signal sweet and sparkly, then I go and plug a big fat 30 foot coily cable into my Tele. Oops 🤷🏼♂️
Great stuff guys!!
THANK YOU FOR THIS! So helpful!
22:00 excelent playing
The buffer into the Secret Weapon was hilarious. Completely overturned the accepted “wisdom”. Dan (Drive) has done some magic - it’s the new Klon ;-O Some fantastic insights throughout this episode. Most of us are here for this “tedious” stuff - who else would throw an hour+ at this on RUclips. Great work as ever. Chapeau.
The Vertex guy. He’s the only one who would talk about buffers more. He must have 20 videos on buffers.
Except, although he says to play with one’s rig, get the sound they like, over listening to _his_ preferred way, he usually recommends the Mesa Boogie High Wire, or Empress Buffer, Buffer+, or stereo Buffer+. It’s usually because they have input and output buffers, and the effects loop.
Leave any non buffer friendly pedals at the front, then the rest in the loop, and it works. But the high end difference can be disarmingly different, and one can find themselves trying to darken that tone up a bit, depending on the pedal being used.
The age old question
Bright pickups or bright amp
Dunno if anyone has commented on this already, but I'm going to issue a hypothesis regarding the secret machine and having a pre-buffer. That pedal is based on a zonk machine, right? I've seen a few schematics for those as well as Mk 1 tonebenders and the the first transistor stage in those circuits is essentially a buffer. So, in other words, the pedals is already buffered at the input, so when you put a buffer before it, it just sounds a bit more compressed.
At the risk of opening a can of worms, isn't that the case with all of the classic fuzz circuits (e.g. fuzz face, tone bender varieties/zonk machine) in that they all connect directly to the leg of the first transistor? Or am I missing something obvious - or does that relationship differ somehow in the zonk machine specifically?
@@cowieson short answer to that: no, that isn't the case :) a buffer is not defined by 'directly connecting to the leg of the first transistor', a buffer is a 1:1 amplifier. it's about the topology and function of that first transistor in the circuit. in the FF, that first transistor is very much a part of the effect/amplicifation, not just a 1:1 buffer.
@@krisdelacourt3977 thanks for the clarification! Bit of a derp from me there; completely overlooking the part where the whole point of the buffer is the 1:1 gain ratio!
In the context of understanding this, would be good if more pedals gave you the option via switch or dip switch whether to have their buffer engaged when they are off. Although as Dan says it isn’t horrendous, there was still a noticeable compression impact when all the buffers are engaged at once which mimics a large pedal board with multiple pedals with buffers engaged when off. I for one don’t really want my selection of pedals to have to be influenced by what buffer it has in it and to have to reject an otherwise great sounding pedal because of what it does whilst off! Of course you can get around this with a loop switcher such as G3 or a Quartermaster but even then it is interesting that it might be worth experimenting turning on loops with buffered pedals (eg Klon/Klone) with the pedal turned of to see if the buffer has a favourable impact on your tone. Whilst I understood the basics and uses of buffers from the previous video, I learned a LOT more from this video which to be honest I nearly didn’t watch given it’s not the most exciting topic at face value. I’ve noticed a pattern though that I seem to learn the most from the videos that seem to have the least interesting topics 🤔 Like that contented feeling your insides have late afternoon when you chose a salad for lunch instead of the burger and fries 😀
Ha! Thanks Iain. Yep, it’s definitely not sexy, but it is absolutely fundamental to using pedals! Cheers
Thanks for another great video Guys1 By the way, got my TPS shirt in the mail recently. LOVE IT! Really pleasantly surprised at the quality too. Super, super nice :-)
Thanks so much Mark!
Great show, as a always nad excellent background information. What would be really interesting in comparison is how the "V.I.B." Buffer from OKKO, with its adjustable, variable impedance and capacity settings, would sound in comparison.
I have an always on compressor (behind the wah) at the beginning of the board and an always on equalizer at the end. Voi la. Buffered signal chain.
Always on pedals are buffering. You can't get more buffery than an always on pedal.
56:04 I think, what input impedance the output of the fuzz face sees matters for the fuzz face’s tone. Changing the output impedance of the kingsley buffer only affects it indirectly. In other words, increasing the output impedance of the kingsley only tries to lower the unwanted top end that resulted from placing a (very?) high impedance buffer after the fuzz face. Am I wrong? So I think, changing the input impedance of the buffer that follows the fuzz face would control the characteristics of the fuzz tone more. I have a radial engineering di that has an adjustable input impedance which I find very useful. Very nice episode, thanks.
Sitting on top of the wifi gardenhose, no ladyfriend present, sapping bandwith with her netnix stuff, no buffer wories here mates!!!
Facinating as always, best buffet of buffers ever!
Grtz!
So good to see Mick getting in the zone again. I know how it feels to be a bit disconnected from music during a busy period or tough mental season, so it’s always good to make a bit of a connection again. Really excellent information and explanations from Dan as well! Great video guys.
Generally, I just try to keep my cables as short as possible. If I lose some top end I just turn up the treble. Besides that, I've never given it a thought in 30 years of gigs and studio-work. My pedal-boards have been very moderate though, with relatively few pedals compared to many other guitarists.
Though as always with TPS, this is still good education for me.
🤫🤫🤘
I've got a buffered tuner at the front, and some Boss pedals in the middle, and a UAFX pedal with a buffer at the end. And there's a noticeable difference between straight into amp vs thru the board. The high end is still there, but the "liveliness" of the pickups is lost. It's the aural equivalent of looking through glass: it may be clear to look through but it's not the same as nothing being there at all
This may be an unpopular opinion, but even though a buffer can/will help maintain or improve tone, it doesnt really seem very necessary or important in the grand scheme of things. I say that because, to this day, in my line of work, I see A LOT of pedalboards and only a very tiny percentage of them have standalone buffers (excluding the ones that are built into the pedals). In all my years of touring and working for musicians I almost never see buffers on all these massive pedalboards. So, although I absolutely appreciate what a buffer can do, I also feel that they aren’t very necessary and most musicians for many years have never really had the need for it until all these RUclips videos made them out to be more significant than they actually are.
That is just my opinion…but curious what other people think.
I know the die hard tone-nerds and sound-snobs of the world would say that buffers are imperative, and that’s fair enough since they do actually work, but I just don’t see them being that important seeing as how we have managed without them for all these years and have been able to sound great without them.
OK my second time through this video and what I did not get the first time through is. I need to check each of my pedals to find out if they have buffers in them or not.... Secondly, because I run on my game stage to the front of the app and then I run all my time. Effects through the loop. I may have to put the buffer in the loop. And see what that does especially since I've got a tube screamer. In my game stage
Nice hose analogy, but I wouldn't say it was exactly watertight.
Budum tish
🙄