4 speeds don’t do it for me. Had my shovel geared comfortable for 90 and forget about low speed riding or take offs. 5 speed works for me enough to not shell out for a baker 6.
Great topic. As far as highway speeds, I found that RPM's is the issue. It would make sense with an evo that it could run 70, 80 mph with either transmission. But if I cruise my shovel above 3000 rpm long term, stuff begins to fall off or break or etc.
That’s interesting, I’m surprised it does that because they’re both solid mounted, 80” motors, hardtailed etc. but then again the exhaust only has one stud on the shovel so I could see that causing some issues for sure. Love your channel btw, great info for the community 🙏🏼
On my old Panhead, I installed a 4-speed with Andrews gears. The transmission was assembled by a guy who knew his stuff. I rebuilt the kickstarter using factory parts (lucky me) and a finned Jammer kicker cover. Baker makes great transmissions, but you'll need a very deep pocket. Thanks, Grease's Garage. Stay safe. -- W
FL 4 speeds had a 2.60:1 1st gear ratio. The 5 speed's 1st is 3.21:1. You can gear a 5 speed with a bigger countershaft sprocket and/or smaller rear wheel sprocket to get the same overall 1st gear ratio as a 4 speed, and enjoy lower revs (i.e. less vibration and better gas consumption) while in the top gears out on the open road.
Thank you for this comment. The community at large will always know more than any one person so I love to see you sharing this with everyone reading these comments. I appreciate it 🙏🏼
4 speeds are best, parts are the same 1936 -1976 with different main shaft lengths you can get one cheep ,Have it rebuilt by an expert !!! You can add an extra tooth to trans sprocket for more top end . Andrews makes great replacement parts and different first gear ratios sets 240 and 260 for more bottom end . Its worth it !!! great video !
I have a 79 Fx with a rotary top and an 86 evo softail with a 5 speed and i definitely prefer the 4 speed. Both have treated me pretty well. my 4 speed actually shifts poorly and leaks more than what see as the allowable amount of leakage but the gearing of the 4 speed to me makes a for a way more enjoyable ride.
I agree 100% I prefer the gearing of the 4 speed and having less gears in general. I don’t ever find myself needing the extra one in the middle. My 4 speed also leaks a good bit, I top it off periodically and try not to stress over it haha
Highly informative and well presented as usual (if a lil' late for me!) I run the Cannonball kicker on the five-speed and the only negative is that the trap-door bearings are the earlier type (ok, the price isn't cheap but reasonable compared to the Baker option). Thanks man - stay safe.
Great video as always. One area you didn't mention though is the different main shaft lengths for the various years of 4 speeds. This can be another huge area of frustration and cost based on what motor and 4 speed tranny you're trying to mate up to align your primary drive. Just note for your viewers, not all 4 speeds you buy will match up with every big twin motor you try and run in your chop. Cheers Grease, great work, and keep it up!!!!!!
@@greasesgarage yes sir, you are correct in that you can take pretty much any four speed and swap the main shaft from a short shaft (37-64) to a mid shaft (65-69) to a long shaft (70-85). There's even a longer, long main shaft from 84-86 that accommodated belt final drives. The shafts increased in length with the advent of starters and starter housings as well as the inner primary thicknesses needed to accommodate and support. I have a 65 tranny I rebuilt with a long shaft from the Shovel days along with a bearing support plate that then matches up with my Evo motor. Normally the rule is the longer the shaft you run, you need to run a bearing support plate if you're running an open belt to keep the main bearings from loading and wearing out the main drive gear bushing which causes leaks. Honestly you could do a whole follow up episode on the "years of the four speeds, main shaft lengths", and how they may or may not match up with the motor sprocket shaft types (tapered vs splined) and lengths. But matching main shaft length to motor sprocket length is crucial in getting the right primary drive line between old flatheads and pans, later model pans, generator shovels and onto the cone shovels which the Motor Co. all varied the motor sprocket type and length.
They also make 5-into-4 and 6-into-4 gear sets that add 1 or 2 gears into a 4 speed transmission case, so that's an option too. It's a good compromise for those that want lower cruise RPMs, with the 4 speed case for kicking and the ratchet top for jockey shift setup. As a guy who ran a 5 speed cable actuated trans with jockey shift, I can _absolutely_ say that it is _terrible._ It was so bad that I reverted to hand clutch after a month.
Excellent points all around! Forgot about the gear sets. Might have to do a video on that in the future. Glad you agree on the cable thing, I was anticipating a lot of pushback on that one but it really is just so much less smooth lol
Wow, I think you would hate my bike; it's exactly the opposite of all you espouse. I run a jockey setup on my Shovel, but with a 5-speed (actually a Baker 6OD) and my clutch cable goes around the front. It doesn't look too bad because it's partially hidden by the oil cooler. It also shifts smoothly since I used a Barnett cable. The reason I went with that transmission is so it would jive with what I was replacing, which was an Ultima and it had to work with the extant open primary. I'm slowly replacing all the parts on there that aren't made in USA, so I bought a Baker 6 speed overdrive and a Primo-Rivera kicker. All of this is taking me a while because cost is a factor, and I fully realize that not everyone is able, or wants to go that route. The kicker alone costs as much as the entire Ultima transmission, and I've bought running vehicles for less than the price of the Baker. I just want my stuff made in America. Speaking of the Baker, on the 6OD, fifth gear is 1:1 like a regular 5 speed and sixth is 0.86:1. My S&S has no problem pulling it down the road and neither should most other OHV engines, but forget an OD with a flatty. The gearing is way too tall. Man, I just realized this is the longest reply I've ever left on RUclips. Sorry about that, but I figure the more experiences people can read about, the broader their knowledge base will be. Love your videos; keep them coming. You're the only one on RUclips that puts out content 100% pertinent to my situation. I look forward to lots more videos.
Thank you so much for the detailed response! I do love to hear about other people’s situations and why they choose the setups they do. I too prefer to buy USA made in all aspects of life including the bikes so I can certainly understand your desire to swap out the parts. I hear nothing but the best things about those baker transmissions. I would consider a 6 into 4 if at some point I come into some crazy money haha
The 5-speed is superior in every aspect except, as you've correctly stated, jockey shifting. The starter after 1992 has been excellent until like 2005. The uneducated will say something dumb like the 4speed is 1:1 final just like the 5 speed. True but the drivability and reliability minus leaking makes the 5 speed an excellent choice!
Crazy how I was looking into all this and you made a video! This is good info! Prism supply does sell a Jockey shift kit for the 5 speed. I was looking into it but I agree I don’t like the clutch cable system on the 5 speed
Always great to hear when a video comes just at the right time. Glad it helped! Yea the cables are ok I ran mine for a whole season but no question the direct rod is better
@@greasesgarage use stock clutch dia. Spring , release finger won’t hold up to Aftermarket HD spring. There is no oil slinger in trans , I saw somewhere you can retro fit one from other 5 speeds. I raised oil level in trans to compensate.
They all can be had with factory starters, I’ve not looked into aftermarket starters for the 4 speeds because most people run them as kick only but I’ll get it on my research list for future videos
Thanks! It will be a bit before I start gathering parts. I am going to start over the road trucking, I actually take my cdl test tomorrow. I will be gathering parts and doing a frame up build. I will most likely be going paughco frame. Your videos have answered a lot of the questions I had gathering information and I have been able to plan most of my build from them. I plan on keeping an eye on marketplace for deals on the areas I will be driving through since I will be all over the country truck driving
My old '58 Panhead with Linkert carb and stock running gear would "bury the needle at 120 mph". I'm currently running a fuel injected twin-cam '06 with exhaust, intake, cams, and tuned; yet it tops out at about 90 mph. What gives?? My twin cam with a stock 5-speed, jack-rabbits off the start and gets up to speed fast enough, just doesn't have that sweet top 120-mph speed.
Yo man im really digging your videos. I just picked up a 86 softail 5 speed yet it has the external clutch rod, not a internal cable it also has the big solenoid on the top of the primary like ive only seen on shovelheads. Any experience with this ? By the way my shifter linkage is not the rotary style but the newer one.
Yes there were some unusual transmissions in the crossover years, I believe that one was also used on the FXR or at least a similar one that only ran for a few years and has the external arm. If you want to shoot me a few photos on instagram I’d be happy to take a look and talk it through. Depending on the two factors I talked about in this video, you can decide whether to keep that trans or swap it out
Question…I’ve got an 83 FXR with 5 spd and it’s got that funky arm sticking up for the clutch cable but my 93 FLHTP 5 spd doesn’t have the arm. Same transmission different clutch or different 5 spds all together? Thanks
Glad you mentioned this, I do know that the early fxr had that strange arm on top and actually they got a bad reputation for breaking, maybe due to that extreme upward angle. So for those transmissions you might have a bit of a golden setup for foot clutch in that you could fabricate a new arm and have a rock solid foot clutch with a five speed. Only downside it’s it’s attached to an FXR so the chances that someone would WANT a foot clutch are very slim haha. But it’s totally doable
I was actually thinking the same thing as I was watching your video i know the one with the arms are less desirable but it does look like should you use one in a chopper it wouldn’t be too difficult to make a foot clutch
@josephtizol9695 what I don’t know is whether that trans would fit into say, a softail frame, being that it’s only included on the FXR which has a different frame. Not saying it doesn’t fit, just that I don’t know whether it fits or not. An interesting experiment for a future video if I could ever get my hands on one
Hey Grease, I just recently ran across a “new old stock” RevTech 4 speed ratchet top transmission that was built in the 90’s. It’s never been used so it’s practically brand new. I’m planning to build an Evo chopper on a rigid frame and set it up for a jockey shifter using this transmission. Do you know anything about this brand? Are they reliable? Or are they junk? Thanks for any help
Definitely heard of revtech they make cases too if I’m not mistaken. I think it would be a good option so long as it’s in good condition. One thing I’d do before buying is reach out to revtech and tell them the model number and ask if you’re still able to get parts for it. If not, maybe pass on it
@@greasesgarage I just sent them an email and asked if the internal gears and gaskets, shims etc. could be upgraded and replaced if need be. Thanks for the help!
4 speeds don’t do it for me. Had my shovel geared comfortable for 90 and forget about low speed riding or take offs. 5 speed works for me enough to not shell out for a baker 6.
Great topic. As far as highway speeds, I found that RPM's is the issue. It would make sense with an evo that it could run 70, 80 mph with either transmission. But if I cruise my shovel above 3000 rpm long term, stuff begins to fall off or break or etc.
That’s interesting, I’m surprised it does that because they’re both solid mounted, 80” motors, hardtailed etc. but then again the exhaust only has one stud on the shovel so I could see that causing some issues for sure.
Love your channel btw, great info for the community 🙏🏼
Jockey shift on a 5 speed. use right foot pedal for the clutch cable.then run your rear brake off the handlebar master cylinder
Definitely possible
What a video, perfect guidelines for my build, thanks man
Love to hear it! 🤘🏼
On my old Panhead, I installed a 4-speed with Andrews gears. The transmission was assembled by a guy who knew his stuff. I rebuilt the kickstarter using factory parts (lucky me) and a finned Jammer kicker cover. Baker makes great transmissions, but you'll need a very deep pocket. Thanks, Grease's Garage. Stay safe. -- W
That’s fantastic, I hear great stuff about the Andrew’s gears. Did you keep the same ratios to stock or change it up?
@@greasesgarage Andrews offered close ratios for dressers and lighter bikes. I went with the latter.
FL 4 speeds had a 2.60:1 1st gear ratio. The 5 speed's 1st is 3.21:1. You can gear a 5 speed with a bigger countershaft sprocket and/or smaller rear wheel sprocket to get the same overall 1st gear ratio as a 4 speed, and enjoy lower revs (i.e. less vibration and better gas consumption) while in the top gears out on the open road.
Thank you for this comment. The community at large will always know more than any one person so I love to see you sharing this with everyone reading these comments. I appreciate it 🙏🏼
My fxr 82 shovel was the first five speed that evolved in the evo
4 speeds are best, parts are the same 1936 -1976 with different main shaft lengths you can get one cheep ,Have it rebuilt by an expert !!! You can add an extra tooth to trans sprocket for more top end . Andrews makes great replacement parts and different first gear ratios sets 240 and 260 for more bottom end . Its worth it !!! great video !
Thank you for this info! I know a little bit but certainly not everything so I love when people share more relevant stuff in the comments 🙏🏼🙏🏼
I have a 79 Fx with a rotary top and an 86 evo softail with a 5 speed and i definitely prefer the 4 speed. Both have treated me pretty well. my 4 speed actually shifts poorly and leaks more than what see as the allowable amount of leakage but the gearing of the 4 speed to me makes a for a way more enjoyable ride.
I agree 100% I prefer the gearing of the 4 speed and having less gears in general. I don’t ever find myself needing the extra one in the middle. My 4 speed also leaks a good bit, I top it off periodically and try not to stress over it haha
Highly informative and well presented as usual (if a lil' late for me!) I run the Cannonball kicker on the five-speed and the only negative is that the trap-door bearings are the earlier type (ok, the price isn't cheap but reasonable compared to the Baker option). Thanks man - stay safe.
Great video as always. One area you didn't mention though is the different main shaft lengths for the various years of 4 speeds. This can be another huge area of frustration and cost based on what motor and 4 speed tranny you're trying to mate up to align your primary drive. Just note for your viewers, not all 4 speeds you buy will match up with every big twin motor you try and run in your chop. Cheers Grease, great work, and keep it up!!!!!!
Great point, thanks for mentioning this! I do believe that the main shafts are swappable though, can you confirm?
@@greasesgarage yes sir, you are correct in that you can take pretty much any four speed and swap the main shaft from a short shaft (37-64) to a mid shaft (65-69) to a long shaft (70-85). There's even a longer, long main shaft from 84-86 that accommodated belt final drives. The shafts increased in length with the advent of starters and starter housings as well as the inner primary thicknesses needed to accommodate and support. I have a 65 tranny I rebuilt with a long shaft from the Shovel days along with a bearing support plate that then matches up with my Evo motor. Normally the rule is the longer the shaft you run, you need to run a bearing support plate if you're running an open belt to keep the main bearings from loading and wearing out the main drive gear bushing which causes leaks. Honestly you could do a whole follow up episode on the "years of the four speeds, main shaft lengths", and how they may or may not match up with the motor sprocket shaft types (tapered vs splined) and lengths. But matching main shaft length to motor sprocket length is crucial in getting the right primary drive line between old flatheads and pans, later model pans, generator shovels and onto the cone shovels which the Motor Co. all varied the motor sprocket type and length.
They also make 5-into-4 and 6-into-4 gear sets that add 1 or 2 gears into a 4 speed transmission case, so that's an option too. It's a good compromise for those that want lower cruise RPMs, with the 4 speed case for kicking and the ratchet top for jockey shift setup.
As a guy who ran a 5 speed cable actuated trans with jockey shift, I can _absolutely_ say that it is _terrible._ It was so bad that I reverted to hand clutch after a month.
Excellent points all around! Forgot about the gear sets. Might have to do a video on that in the future.
Glad you agree on the cable thing, I was anticipating a lot of pushback on that one but it really is just so much less smooth lol
@@greasesgarage It seems like it's always the guys that have never built a bike that have she strongest opinions on building bikes lol
@@Lochlann13100%
Wow, I think you would hate my bike; it's exactly the opposite of all you espouse. I run a jockey setup on my Shovel, but with a 5-speed (actually a Baker 6OD) and my clutch cable goes around the front. It doesn't look too bad because it's partially hidden by the oil cooler. It also shifts smoothly since I used a Barnett cable. The reason I went with that transmission is so it would jive with what I was replacing, which was an Ultima and it had to work with the extant open primary. I'm slowly replacing all the parts on there that aren't made in USA, so I bought a Baker 6 speed overdrive and a Primo-Rivera kicker.
All of this is taking me a while because cost is a factor, and I fully realize that not everyone is able, or wants to go that route. The kicker alone costs as much as the entire Ultima transmission, and I've bought running vehicles for less than the price of the Baker. I just want my stuff made in America. Speaking of the Baker, on the 6OD, fifth gear is 1:1 like a regular 5 speed and sixth is 0.86:1. My S&S has no problem pulling it down the road and neither should most other OHV engines, but forget an OD with a flatty. The gearing is way too tall.
Man, I just realized this is the longest reply I've ever left on RUclips. Sorry about that, but I figure the more experiences people can read about, the broader their knowledge base will be. Love your videos; keep them coming. You're the only one on RUclips that puts out content 100% pertinent to my situation. I look forward to lots more videos.
Thank you so much for the detailed response! I do love to hear about other people’s situations and why they choose the setups they do.
I too prefer to buy USA made in all aspects of life including the bikes so I can certainly understand your desire to swap out the parts.
I hear nothing but the best things about those baker transmissions. I would consider a 6 into 4 if at some point I come into some crazy money haha
Great video 👍
Thank you!
The 5-speed is superior in every aspect except, as you've correctly stated, jockey shifting. The starter after 1992 has been excellent until like 2005. The uneducated will say something dumb like the 4speed is 1:1 final just like the 5 speed. True but the drivability and reliability minus leaking makes the 5 speed an excellent choice!
Crazy how I was looking into all this and you made a video! This is good info!
Prism supply does sell a Jockey shift kit for the 5 speed. I was looking into it but I agree I don’t like the clutch cable system on the 5 speed
Early 5 speeds had a similar cable setup as the 4 speeds with the arm on top of trans. 84 85 &86
Great info, yes someone messaged me today saying they’ve got one of those
Always great to hear when a video comes just at the right time. Glad it helped!
Yea the cables are ok I ran mine for a whole season but no question the direct rod is better
@@greasesgarage use stock clutch dia. Spring , release finger won’t hold up to Aftermarket HD spring. There is no oil slinger in trans , I saw somewhere you can retro fit one from other 5 speeds. I raised oil level in trans to compensate.
I’m gathering information to build a chopper. I was aiming toward 5 speed until this video. What options are there for starters on a 4 speed?
They all can be had with factory starters, I’ve not looked into aftermarket starters for the 4 speeds because most people run them as kick only but I’ll get it on my research list for future videos
Thanks! It will be a bit before I start gathering parts. I am going to start over the road trucking, I actually take my cdl test tomorrow. I will be gathering parts and doing a frame up build. I will most likely be going paughco frame. Your videos have answered a lot of the questions I had gathering information and I have been able to plan most of my build from them. I plan on keeping an eye on marketplace for deals on the areas I will be driving through since I will be all over the country truck driving
My old '58 Panhead with Linkert carb and stock running gear would "bury the needle at 120 mph". I'm currently running a fuel injected twin-cam '06 with exhaust, intake, cams, and tuned; yet it tops out at about 90 mph. What gives?? My twin cam with a stock 5-speed, jack-rabbits off the start and gets up to speed fast enough, just doesn't have that sweet top 120-mph speed.
My first thought would be gearing. The motor certainly has the power, might just need taller top end gears
Yo man im really digging your videos. I just picked up a 86 softail 5 speed yet it has the external clutch rod, not a internal cable it also has the big solenoid on the top of the primary like ive only seen on shovelheads. Any experience with this ? By the way my shifter linkage is not the rotary style but the newer one.
Yes there were some unusual transmissions in the crossover years, I believe that one was also used on the FXR or at least a similar one that only ran for a few years and has the external arm.
If you want to shoot me a few photos on instagram I’d be happy to take a look and talk it through.
Depending on the two factors I talked about in this video, you can decide whether to keep that trans or swap it out
Question…I’ve got an 83 FXR with 5 spd and it’s got that funky arm sticking up for the clutch cable but my 93 FLHTP 5 spd doesn’t have the arm. Same transmission different clutch or different 5 spds all together? Thanks
Glad you mentioned this, I do know that the early fxr had that strange arm on top and actually they got a bad reputation for breaking, maybe due to that extreme upward angle.
So for those transmissions you might have a bit of a golden setup for foot clutch in that you could fabricate a new arm and have a rock solid foot clutch with a five speed.
Only downside it’s it’s attached to an FXR so the chances that someone would WANT a foot clutch are very slim haha. But it’s totally doable
I was actually thinking the same thing as I was watching your video i know the one with the arms are less desirable but it does look like should you use one in a chopper it wouldn’t be too difficult to make a foot clutch
@josephtizol9695 what I don’t know is whether that trans would fit into say, a softail frame, being that it’s only included on the FXR which has a different frame.
Not saying it doesn’t fit, just that I don’t know whether it fits or not. An interesting experiment for a future video if I could ever get my hands on one
Ohhh ok i didn’t realize they were FXR specific 👍🏻
Hey Grease, I just recently ran across a “new old stock” RevTech 4 speed ratchet top transmission that was built in the 90’s. It’s never been used so it’s practically brand new. I’m planning to build an Evo chopper on a rigid frame and set it up for a jockey shifter using this transmission. Do you know anything about this brand? Are they reliable? Or are they junk? Thanks for any help
Definitely heard of revtech they make cases too if I’m not mistaken. I think it would be a good option so long as it’s in good condition. One thing I’d do before buying is reach out to revtech and tell them the model number and ask if you’re still able to get parts for it. If not, maybe pass on it
@@greasesgarage I just sent them an email and asked if the internal gears and gaskets, shims etc. could be upgraded and replaced if need be. Thanks for the help!
👍👍👍👍👍🏍️