The reason for that bulky linkage on these Italian jackshaft locomotives ( and many, many others as well ) was to move motors to the sprung mass of the vehicle. Those early electics ran with a few motors which were BIG CHUNGUS and you really didn't want that to be unsprung and straighten your track. If you browse through jackshaft electrics, just about every one of them uses some sort of contraption to detach the motors from the wheels. In that regards - no1 isn't really all that weird.
@@kenbrown2808 Brows through all the ways people tried to make connecting rods 'flexible' for articulated steam locomotives. It is an inherently difficult problem to solve. Especially in the pulsating, high torque machines. Even today, locomotives which avoid the traditional 'nose hung' motors, in order to have them sprung - like TGV power cars - are significantly more mechanically complicated.
@@kenbrown2808 Complicated, but necessary to avoid exerting oblique forces on the chassis when dealing with the ginormous traction motors most electrics of the time had to use. And said traction motors being so big meant they couldn't simply ride down in the chassis for a more direct connection. The other thing the triangle drives do, is they let both traction motors be linked to a single axle.
if you take suggestions, I'd be interested in seeing an "overstayed their welcome" video/list. for example the Hitachis in Melbourne (introduced 1977), which had no air-conditioning and were supposed to be retired in 2006. instead they remained in service until 2013, including several carriages that they had to buy back from a preservation group and a private collector! by the end they seemed to mostly be used when other trains were unavailable, most noticeably at the height of summer in the afternoon when some trains might have got trapped by heat-warped tracks or had other overheating problems. you can imagine how disappointing it was to have to take those home from school on 35+°C days......
16.7Hz isn’t that unusual as early AC goes, it’s 50Hz (european standard) divided by 3, probably because that was the easiest to retrofit power stations. And it’s still widely used in Europe (CH, AT, DE, SE and NO) use it to this day, everyone else electrified on DC or electrified when rectifiers became a thing after WW2… or they changed/deelectrified.
Typically they was originally 15Hz with a standalone grid, but when they was integrated into the larger grid they was change to 16 2/3. And its not only about the frequency its is also about the phase conversion. Just hooking up one phase out of 3 May sound like a good idea.. but it turned out to not work well
To nit pick for fun. CH, AT, DE use 16.7 Hz SE and NO unse the older 16 2/3 Hz. There was a day when the (mostly) German speaking countries switched. But I would assume that a Loco designed for one system can run on the other system. I kinda wish Denmark would convert from 25kV 50Hz to 15kv 16,7Hz, than you could operate a single Loco from Norway to the Alps without switching power system. Is it useful or necessary in today's railways world? NO! but it would be cool.
@@IamTheHolypumpkin compatibility was the reason why they stayed at 16.7 and didn’t try like 50Hz… with 16.7, they’re still in spec since depending on load, frequency can vary a bit and every device needed to handle that anyway. But afaik it made it easier for DC/AC converters to get it right.
In the beginning of electricity, alternating current at both 50Hz and 60Hz saw widespread use on both sides of the Atlantic, hence the Reading Railroads 25Hz Electrification System still found in some parts of the US, which is unhelpful today because the US now uses 60Hz electricity. Plans to replace it have blown hot and cold again and again. This is the state of railroading in the US, where plans change a lot and then finally, a decade or two or three or maybe even four later (depending on the nature of the project) the plans come to fruition.
It's absolutly possible to make a steam turbine loco work well. The swedish version simply used multiple turbines and switched between them depending on speed. The drawback was that it had only one reveze turbine so it could only go slowly backwards.
And I understand no steam is consumed when standing still unlike gas turbine locomotives such as the UP big blow gas turbines. I think he thinks the problems of gas turbine locomotives are present in steam turbine locomotives. The LMS Turbomotive pacific worked well, but not well enough to justify the extra cost of the non standard steam turbine. Close to every modern steam locomotive ran a steam turbine, but just a small one to generate electricity for the headlights etc.
@@johnd8892 Thats still irrelevant since the problem of (literally any kind of) turbine only optimized on certain speed. Which not the point of the locomotive. And well, even you can propose any contraption to fix steam turbine, it's irrelevant nowadays since you can just put the steam turbine somewhere else and transmit it to locomotive via electric line and pantograph, which works well for more than 100 years.
Marine steam turbines are the same way. You only have seven or eight sets of astern rotors, compared to 30+ sets of ahead rotors. Also, only about 1/3 of the horsepower available to go ahead is available when going astern.
I thought that some of the E.552 survived, but i was mistaken. FS E.552 are all scrapped. But their predecessors, 1 E.551 and 2 E.550, and successors, 2 E.554 survived. So there are still triphase electric locomotives with the weird triangle drives preserved. I wish Italy would build a demonstration line, so the italian can show how this locomotives works.
4:00 built by the Austrian's pre war, the German's poked about with it, dismantled it and it was no more. The "boiler" contained a rotary converter that change the overhead AC power to DC for the traction motors. The Austrians made some weird shit, their 1067 class electric locomotives had hydraulic drive. You have to ask why?
When describing the 1082 it's mentioned that the frequency at the time was 16⅔ Hz. That's still the case today in Austria, Switzerland, Germany, Sweden and Norway, but rotary converters are a thing of the past since long. Classically universal commutated series-wound motors were used, nowadays it's 3-phase induction motors with electronic inverters (variable voltage, variable frequency).
Would that BBO train be used to pull the amagaddon express and hide into the tunnels? That would be a reasonable way for it to be disappearing in 1945, since it is using electric and had no smoke while it runs, it could totally be run in the dark with the missing gold reserves and hide into tunnels in the alps or some underground bunker in the wild without alerting anyone, probably hooked up to some generator car and drive itself to places without lines, that would make information be hard to trace down.
7:27 I have to protest. There are more trains using rotary converters. This is far from the only one.. Typically trains of this era would use multi current motors, but those where huge. Also using AC was done already in the 1960 with thyristor. Both the sweidsh Rb and Rc used them and also the german.. I belive it was the BR 103. I think you may have confused DC locos with AC-DC-AC that was starting to be used in the late 80 I trains like the ICE1.
The Swiss shunter steamengine was a real steamlocomtive who was heated electricly like a tea kettle in WW2 due to severe shortage of coal and electric locomotives. Not energie efficient but they had some extra "electric" locomotives they could use. Electricity was in abundance available due to water powerd powerplants. The steam look alike engine was an Austrian electric engine the parts who look like a boiler were AC-DC converters. That one was build to boost the overal effiency of an electric locomotive
@@obelic71 Amazing how long rotary converters stuck around. Back before high-power solid state electronics, building a motor and a generator/alternator and coupling them together was the simplest and cheapest way to change current from one form to another.
@@ostlandr as always new tech gives new possibilities. In space and railroads (railroad crossings, safety equipment, flight computers etc. etc.) they use on purpose older more reliable tech who is more resiliant to the enviroment the equipment works in.
Video suggestion, you should do a documentary about the Carroll Park, and western railroad Because from what I heard from someone, apparently they did an illegal boiler repair on one of their locomotives or both
4:54 rotary reformer locos is really not that uncommon. This just had one huge reformer. Typically they would reform to AC 3 phase in steed of DC.. because.. well.. if you have a rotary reformer, you might as well. But DC motors was not as uncommon either. For example the EP2 bipolar used DC motors... and bipolar as well (unlike quad polar motors that is typical on locos) But of cause, changing the shunting current in the generator to change the voltage is of cause less complex than making so in the driving motor. Specially when you have only 2 generators and 12 motors. The typical solution was to just have a huge as multi current motor in the boddy of the train and have a rod go won to the wheels. So it really wasn't that rotary reformers was that uncommon, just that AC motors generally was less maintenance. Yes, of cause they want as strong, but much more robust. In the 1950 electronics like thyristor become avaliable to make DC .. but then only after the power was transformed. So the loco still needed a large heavy transformer. Still a loco using transformer and thyristor could have about twice the power of one with reformers or AC motors for the same weight. In 1980 the ability to make variable freqvency 3 phase wirh electronics made it possible to reduce the size of the AC motors.down to about the size of a DC motor, also increasing the efficency from about 70% to about 80%, increasing the output power a bit more for the same transformer. This in turn lead to the PM motors that is phase controlled I stead of frequency controlled. Needing computerised controll system. Benefit is that the motors are now smaler lighter and up to 90% efficient.
2:40 the statement that steam turbines was a failure is not true. They didn eventually have limited success. But not with direkt drive but rather with I direct drive, solving most of the problem. Those trains also use oil burners and condensors, making them look nothing like normal steam locos, that generally make people not think of then aa steam trains. But they are. The beat example of this is the GE steam turbine train. While eventually replaced by the gas turbines, they are often confused and mostly just called oil burners.
Well, if you want to keep everything how it is then how should steam engines progress? Weird experiments need to happen, because this is where we find out what works. The old way works, but we could (maybe) make them better.
Or maybe just maybe. We can put steam engine somewhere else and we should developed the modern technology to transmit the steam power to locomotive from long distance. So, we can make the steam engine much more bigger, powerful, no need to massage it to start or run out of water, and insanely efficient. Heck, even better, we can use those hot-hot radioactive rock to heat the steam so we can use less pollution If we even smart and resource enough to use those technology. OH WAIT
It's been done over and over. Brilliant engineers like Andre Chapelon, L. D. Porta, David Wardale and others have made incredible improvements to the design of steam locomotives. And proved it with successful prototypes. But nobody was interested.
The Australians (Or well, at least us Victorians) also trialled lignite burning steam locomotives three times and had success with the latter two. The first was a Victorian Railways C Class which didn't like the conversion and was quickly switched back to black coal. The second was a Victorian Railways X Class which (because the brown coal conversion also added an automatic stoker) ended up outperforming the black coal versions to the degree where it was announced *all* X class would be converted but that fell through when the price of the local pulverised brown coal increased to the point where it wasn't worth it any more. The X class trials initial success also resulted in one of the then-new R Class passenger express locomotives to be converted where it was found to make 15hp less than the rest of its class but was considerably more efficient to the point where a 320km (200mi) trip between Melbourne and Bendigo and back with 350-ton on the back used 1.5 tons less coal. You can see photos of the PBR-equipped C class and X class on their respective wikipedia pages if you're interested.
Power conversion to DC in an AC powered locomotive is a very common thing until very recent. It was the only way to have proper speed control as in the Italian example in this video with 3 Phase motors the speed was dependent on the frequency of the current, and not the voltage as in a DC motor. As the frequency is a fixed parameter of the supplied power there is only one fixed speed at which the AC motors will turn. In the Italian locomotives the problem was somewhat overcome by switching the motors between single phase operation, star and triangle configuration, this gave a total of 4 fixed speeds to choose from. With single phase there isn't much to choose from, the voltage can't be controlled in an easy manner, hence the conversion from AC to DC. Normally this is done with a transformer and rectifiers, motor control is done by shunt resistor banks or rheostats which varies the DC voltage. In the Austrian locomotive a single phase AC motor drove a DC generator to accomplish this, and this was maybe done to avoid the rectifier step to go from AC to DC, as those rectifiers were mercury arc rectifiers consisting of large glass tubes with a vacuum and a bit of mercury in them, those were relatively fragile and a motor/generator group would be more robust, although more maintenance was required as it had rotating parts. In the 1960s solid state rectifiers were introduced, and in the 1970s thyristor control came which could chop the sine wave of AC current at variable intervals enabling speed control of AC commutated motors or DC motors after rectifying. Modern electrics use inverters and variable frequency control, the inventers make 3 phase AC current from single phase AC or DC current from the overhead wires. This 3 phase AC current goes to the VFD control and by varying the frequency the motor speed of the 3 phase traction motors is controlled, a 3 phase motor does not need brushes like a DC or commutated AC motor and therefore needs minimal maintenance.
Quite fascinating - I love those early side-rod electrics which were really built using steam era technology, before modern traction motors and axle hung drive were developed. Funny thing is that axle hung motors were already used on trams and streetcars; possibly it wasn't considered robust or powerful enough? As for turbomotives - the LMS Pacific of that name was very successful as a main line express engine. Problem was she required a permanent third crewman riding her, a fitter, in case anything went wrong en route, and she also needed a separate engine to move her in reverse when in the yards. Rebuilt as a normal "Princess" class Pacific, "Princess Anne", she was sadly smashed beyond repair in the Harrow disaster of 1952.
there must have been a massive increase in stability and low wear on the track, no hammer blow to try to counterbalance. I thought turbomotive looked very purposeful and evolutionary. what a fascinating video.
I'm sorry when you mentioned that BBO 1082 disappeared from the historical record. All I could think of was that I wanted to make some sort of ridiculous fiction about it. Like maybe the Nazis did experiments and turned it into a time machine or something. Cuz let's be honest that locomotive will make a great time machine. Did it make a wuring sound from the converter.
The Austrian locomotive basically was a Ward Leonard-drived machine. I wonder why the literatures don't mention this locomotive. Yey! The Kandó triangle, and the prototype locomotive with it, have been realised! Kandó have done an interesting phase converter too that alowed 50Hz overhead lines. The converter made 1 phase into 3 phases (it was a rotor that generated the two additional phases and worked better at the time than the Skot transformator), so the tracktive motor had a better start twork.
Kandó in fact has made fundamental basics in elecric railway technology: he stated that effective electic locomotives must use the conventional, 1-phase AC lines of the countries, not separated. He not just recognized that it needed to be high voltage (16, 25 kV) to the point of the locomotive itself to remain effective, I mean the long distance transportation of the elecricity, instead he made it in opeation too. He also stated you need 3-phase AC to effectively operate your locomotive, and he experimented with different approaches: phase changing and period changing techniques, and also these combined. His first 1-phase AC high voltage locomotive even utilized pole-switching technique, there was 2-3-4 phase operation. Nowadays, modern electric locomotives all utilize his fundamental priciple: 3-phase and frequency changing, traction given by asynchronous motors. Improvements are obviously made since, as we rectify the single phase AC now and generate the desired frequency 3-phase AC to the motors by semiconductors, without any moving part. Also motors are arranged to axles separately (Bo'Bo, Co'Co), there are even experiments vith direct drive (no gears!)...
my reactions to all these engines: Lignite Coal Burner engine: where is the boiler they didnt show us the full picture? Modified Zolley Turbine Experiment: ok im scared of this engine and im loosing my mind. BBO 1082: NO NO NO MORE ELETRIC WIRE ENGINE. Steam-Diesel opposed- piston no. 8000: wait didnt LNER already try this? why did they think it was a good idea to make this WORSE? FS E.552: im done. this is TOO FAR
It’s a normal boiler. It’s just that the tender has to be huge in order to carry enough low grade coal to run it. It’s on the list because…well what was the point?
Steam turbines not as problematic as you suggest. More an issue with gas turbines. I understand no steam is consumed when standing still unlike gas turbine locomotives such as the UP big blow gas turbines. I think he thinks the problems of gas turbine locomotives are present in steam turbine locomotives. The LMS Turbomotive pacific worked well, but not well enough to justify the extra cost of the non standard steam turbine. Close to every modern steam locomotive ran a steam turbine, but just a small one to generate electricity for the headlights etc. Just about all electricity used is from steam turbines especially Nuclear power stations and coal fuelled electricity generation.
i love your videos, i really do, but you do know we also have made good locomotives and trains here in Italy right? Like the class E.428 or the ETR 300 "Settebello".
@@maxart3392 I love the 200 but I Stil would put the Settebello on top as far as sexiness and elegance, or even it's little brother the etr 252 Arlecchino
m.ruclips.net/video/B20JJuj4SQw/видео.html This is literally all I can think of when I see the name on the tender of the lignite burner. Incidentally, it is the same company, sort of. AEG was a big German company that made all kinds of stuff, including power tools. Eventually, the company was broken up, and the division with the power tools was sold to Electrolux, who then also acquired the rights to the brand name. They then liscensed the brand name to TTI, the parent company of power tool brands Milwaukee, Ryobi, and Ridgid. So, modern AEG tools are rebadges of tools that are sold in the US as Ridgid.
Yeah that BBO 1082 does nothing but remind me of the galaxy railways anime I forget the name but I am VERY sure that one of the trains in that series is definitely based off this
Sadly, that is sometimes true. I was trying to find English Wikipedia on the Wilcke Wurst scandal, and eventually I had to go to German Wikipedia and rely on the most ham-fisted German to English translation I have ever seen!
Well if you believe some European treasure hunters she may be the locomotive used for the "Nazi Gold" train. A train alleged to have been loaded up with priceless gold, artwork, and Artifacts thrown into one of the many Rail tunnels leading into and through the alps and lost due to the bombardments near the end of the war. Many Rail tunnels were lost due to the War so anything is pssible.
Forget the Superstition Mountains in Arizona. I think the Alps might be a better place to treasure hunt. That train sounds a lot more attractive than the Lost Dutchman's Mine. Plus folks looking for the Dutchman's gold tend to come to a bad end.
I too like the visual appeal of the lignite burner, but I can only imagine all the ash that Lignite made was a nightmare. 6:55 A locomotive with a motor-generator the size of a steam boiler sounds rather terrifying.
I need all these in HO scale with directional lighting and smoke units. Love your style you could have talked trashed but you take the high road and this is not a make fun of but more try to figure out thier thinking and explain their designs or thier principal theory. I really want to model the first one with the lignite tender. It looks like a cheap but a "I really worked hard on this" Vanderbuilt tender. I know Vandi cams are for oil burners but you said it runs on coal dust so it has an Archimedes screw system to yeet the coal dust in the fire box. I like them all but that tender spoke to me. People always focus on locomotives and caboose's and intermodels. I like tenders and livestock and poultry cars. Which mr zadoc street patented 2 designs for in Chicago for stock cars in the 1800s. And we're last used up until being phased out in the mid-late 1980s. But tenders are the most important part of a steam trains. No tender means no coal or water. But are factored into the locomotives overall dead weight. That's why switcher units got saddle tanks and coal bunker to eliminate the tender dead weight. A video on tenders would be awesome. Like caboose's having center cupula and offset and bay window and 3 window 4 window.there are diffrent types of tender designs. Love your content. Darkness you rock.
The Kando-drive and such-like are not that unusual: The Swiss crocodile-type locs all use it and quite a number of them are still running. The German crocodiles seem to manage without, probably AC motor technology was better when they were built
The bipolar works pretty much the same way... but have bipolar motors in steed of the normal (back then) quad polar. Later engines like the class 103, Rb and Rc used bipolar motors as well. They simply powered on the AC current a set time after crossing 0V to get diffrent voltage.. hence changing voltage with no moving part. The only moving part needed is the motor brush.
Kalman Kando was a true Pioneer, he established the oldest 50 Hz eletrification system ever in hungary, the complicated locomotives (rotating phase converters) that were needed in those days were considered necessary to have the complete benefit of the most simple electricity transmission. Interestingly he transformed the 50Hz current not to DC current but to a three phase alternating current, resulting in few fixed speed settings. (compare the boxcabs of Virginian Railroad) The Kando drive was not the most important invention of him although he liked it. It was an attempt to create a side rod drive which equalizes the spring play of the drivers in a kinematic correct manner. The most impressive locomotoves with this drives were the hungary built class E402 of the Paris-Orleans Railway of france. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2BB2_400#/media/File:PO_E_402.jpg en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2BB2_400
Austrian AC/DC locomotive? I’m on a Railway to hell !
It’s runnin off the rails like a crazy train
@@micoasters that's Ozzy Osbourne, not ACDC
@@realcanadian67 thanks
Only if your locomotive is "back in black" and crewed by Blackfoot.
LOL
2:27 The front looks like a salt shaker with those holes.
The reason for that bulky linkage on these Italian jackshaft locomotives ( and many, many others as well ) was to move motors to the sprung mass of the vehicle. Those early electics ran with a few motors which were BIG CHUNGUS and you really didn't want that to be unsprung and straighten your track. If you browse through jackshaft electrics, just about every one of them uses some sort of contraption to detach the motors from the wheels. In that regards - no1 isn't really all that weird.
that still looks like kind of an overcomplicated way to turn rotary motion into rotary motion, though.
@@kenbrown2808 Brows through all the ways people tried to make connecting rods 'flexible' for articulated steam locomotives. It is an inherently difficult problem to solve. Especially in the pulsating, high torque machines. Even today, locomotives which avoid the traditional 'nose hung' motors, in order to have them sprung - like TGV power cars - are significantly more mechanically complicated.
@TryboBike steam locomotives have to convert reciprocating motion to rotary motion. That's completely different from an electric locomotive.
@@kenbrown2808 Complicated, but necessary to avoid exerting oblique forces on the chassis when dealing with the ginormous traction motors most electrics of the time had to use. And said traction motors being so big meant they couldn't simply ride down in the chassis for a more direct connection.
The other thing the triangle drives do, is they let both traction motors be linked to a single axle.
if you take suggestions, I'd be interested in seeing an "overstayed their welcome" video/list. for example the Hitachis in Melbourne (introduced 1977), which had no air-conditioning and were supposed to be retired in 2006. instead they remained in service until 2013, including several carriages that they had to buy back from a preservation group and a private collector! by the end they seemed to mostly be used when other trains were unavailable, most noticeably at the height of summer in the afternoon when some trains might have got trapped by heat-warped tracks or had other overheating problems. you can imagine how disappointing it was to have to take those home from school on 35+°C days......
16.7Hz isn’t that unusual as early AC goes, it’s 50Hz (european standard) divided by 3, probably because that was the easiest to retrofit power stations. And it’s still widely used in Europe (CH, AT, DE, SE and NO) use it to this day, everyone else electrified on DC or electrified when rectifiers became a thing after WW2… or they changed/deelectrified.
Typically they was originally 15Hz with a standalone grid, but when they was integrated into the larger grid they was change to 16 2/3.
And its not only about the frequency its is also about the phase conversion.
Just hooking up one phase out of 3 May sound like a good idea.. but it turned out to not work well
To nit pick for fun. CH, AT, DE use 16.7 Hz SE and NO unse the older 16 2/3 Hz. There was a day when the (mostly) German speaking countries switched.
But I would assume that a Loco designed for one system can run on the other system.
I kinda wish Denmark would convert from 25kV 50Hz to 15kv 16,7Hz, than you could operate a single Loco from Norway to the Alps without switching power system. Is it useful or necessary in today's railways world? NO! but it would be cool.
@@IamTheHolypumpkin compatibility was the reason why they stayed at 16.7 and didn’t try like 50Hz… with 16.7, they’re still in spec since depending on load, frequency can vary a bit and every device needed to handle that anyway. But afaik it made it easier for DC/AC converters to get it right.
In the beginning of electricity, alternating current at both 50Hz and 60Hz saw widespread use on both sides of the Atlantic, hence the Reading Railroads 25Hz Electrification System still found in some parts of the US, which is unhelpful today because the US now uses 60Hz electricity. Plans to replace it have blown hot and cold again and again. This is the state of railroading in the US, where plans change a lot and then finally, a decade or two or three or maybe even four later (depending on the nature of the project) the plans come to fruition.
It's absolutly possible to make a steam turbine loco work well. The swedish version simply used multiple turbines and switched between them depending on speed.
The drawback was that it had only one reveze turbine so it could only go slowly backwards.
And I understand no steam is consumed when standing still unlike gas turbine locomotives such as the UP big blow gas turbines.
I think he thinks the problems of gas turbine locomotives are present in steam turbine locomotives.
The LMS Turbomotive pacific worked well, but not well enough to justify the extra cost of the non standard steam turbine.
Close to every modern steam locomotive ran a steam turbine, but just a small one to generate electricity for the headlights etc.
@@johnd8892 Thats still irrelevant since the problem of (literally any kind of) turbine only optimized on certain speed. Which not the point of the locomotive.
And well, even you can propose any contraption to fix steam turbine, it's irrelevant nowadays since you can just put the steam turbine somewhere else and transmit it to locomotive via electric line and pantograph, which works well for more than 100 years.
Marine steam turbines are the same way. You only have seven or eight sets of astern rotors, compared to 30+ sets of ahead rotors. Also, only about 1/3 of the horsepower available to go ahead is available when going astern.
@@michigandon a lot of train steam components was originally from ships.
@@matsv201 And vice versa! The former C&O carferry Badger has a Westinghouse brake compressor onboard to provide ships service air.
Well on that last one, the Italian one. It made my day to know that one is preserved for public viewing! 👍
0:58 Those letters would sure age well
I thought that some of the E.552 survived, but i was mistaken.
FS E.552 are all scrapped.
But their predecessors, 1 E.551 and 2 E.550, and successors, 2 E.554 survived.
So there are still triphase electric locomotives with the weird triangle drives preserved.
I wish Italy would build a demonstration line, so the italian can show how this locomotives works.
4:00 built by the Austrian's pre war, the German's poked about with it, dismantled it and it was no more.
The "boiler" contained a rotary converter that change the overhead AC power to DC for the traction motors.
The Austrians made some weird shit, their 1067 class electric locomotives had hydraulic drive.
You have to ask why?
The tgoj M3t turbine and the other swedish turbine locos were great and some of the most powerful swedish locos
One of the Ljungstrom steam turbines is still running in a museum
@@tazareal i know
When describing the 1082 it's mentioned that the frequency at the time was 16⅔ Hz. That's still the case today in Austria, Switzerland, Germany, Sweden and Norway, but rotary converters are a thing of the past since long. Classically universal commutated series-wound motors were used, nowadays it's 3-phase induction motors with electronic inverters (variable voltage, variable frequency).
Would that BBO train be used to pull the amagaddon express and hide into the tunnels? That would be a reasonable way for it to be disappearing in 1945, since it is using electric and had no smoke while it runs, it could totally be run in the dark with the missing gold reserves and hide into tunnels in the alps or some underground bunker in the wild without alerting anyone, probably hooked up to some generator car and drive itself to places without lines, that would make information be hard to trace down.
That BBO looks like a cross between a steam locomotive and a MILW Bi-Polar...
7:27 I have to protest. There are more trains using rotary converters. This is far from the only one..
Typically trains of this era would use multi current motors, but those where huge.
Also using AC was done already in the 1960 with thyristor. Both the sweidsh Rb and Rc used them and also the german.. I belive it was the BR 103.
I think you may have confused DC locos with AC-DC-AC that was starting to be used in the late 80 I trains like the ICE1.
The Swiss locomotive is something I never seen before, it was a steam engine lookalike but was electrified.
The Swiss shunter steamengine was a real steamlocomtive who was heated electricly like a tea kettle in WW2 due to severe shortage of coal and electric locomotives. Not energie efficient but they had some extra "electric" locomotives they could use.
Electricity was in abundance available due to water powerd powerplants.
The steam look alike engine was an Austrian electric engine the parts who look like a boiler were AC-DC converters.
That one was build to boost the overal effiency of an electric locomotive
@@obelic71 Amazing how long rotary converters stuck around. Back before high-power solid state electronics, building a motor and a generator/alternator and coupling them together was the simplest and cheapest way to change current from one form to another.
@@ostlandr as always new tech gives new possibilities. In space and railroads (railroad crossings, safety equipment, flight computers etc. etc.) they use on purpose older more reliable tech who is more resiliant to the enviroment the equipment works in.
Video suggestion, you should do a documentary about the Carroll Park, and western railroad Because from what I heard from someone, apparently they did an illegal boiler repair on one of their locomotives or both
4:54 rotary reformer locos is really not that uncommon. This just had one huge reformer.
Typically they would reform to AC 3 phase in steed of DC.. because.. well.. if you have a rotary reformer, you might as well. But DC motors was not as uncommon either. For example the EP2 bipolar used DC motors... and bipolar as well (unlike quad polar motors that is typical on locos)
But of cause, changing the shunting current in the generator to change the voltage is of cause less complex than making so in the driving motor. Specially when you have only 2 generators and 12 motors.
The typical solution was to just have a huge as multi current motor in the boddy of the train and have a rod go won to the wheels.
So it really wasn't that rotary reformers was that uncommon, just that AC motors generally was less maintenance. Yes, of cause they want as strong, but much more robust.
In the 1950 electronics like thyristor become avaliable to make DC .. but then only after the power was transformed. So the loco still needed a large heavy transformer. Still a loco using transformer and thyristor could have about twice the power of one with reformers or AC motors for the same weight.
In 1980 the ability to make variable freqvency 3 phase wirh electronics made it possible to reduce the size of the AC motors.down to about the size of a DC motor, also increasing the efficency from about 70% to about 80%, increasing the output power a bit more for the same transformer.
This in turn lead to the PM motors that is phase controlled I stead of frequency controlled. Needing computerised controll system. Benefit is that the motors are now smaler lighter and up to 90% efficient.
0:43
All Engines Go tender
All Engines Go tender
N o
Glad to see that these locomotives are finally getting attention. Great video as always :)
2:40 the statement that steam turbines was a failure is not true. They didn eventually have limited success. But not with direkt drive but rather with I direct drive, solving most of the problem. Those trains also use oil burners and condensors, making them look nothing like normal steam locos, that generally make people not think of then aa steam trains. But they are. The beat example of this is the GE steam turbine train.
While eventually replaced by the gas turbines, they are often confused and mostly just called oil burners.
Well, if you want to keep everything how it is then how should steam engines progress? Weird experiments need to happen, because this is where we find out what works. The old way works, but we could (maybe) make them better.
Or maybe just maybe. We can put steam engine somewhere else and we should developed the modern technology to transmit the steam power to locomotive from long distance. So, we can make the steam engine much more bigger, powerful, no need to massage it to start or run out of water, and insanely efficient. Heck, even better, we can use those hot-hot radioactive rock to heat the steam so we can use less pollution
If we even smart and resource enough to use those technology. OH WAIT
It's been done over and over. Brilliant engineers like Andre Chapelon, L. D. Porta, David Wardale and others have made incredible improvements to the design of steam locomotives. And proved it with successful prototypes. But nobody was interested.
@@ostlandr That's a shame 😕 If the prototype is successful, it could actually work
The Australians (Or well, at least us Victorians) also trialled lignite burning steam locomotives three times and had success with the latter two.
The first was a Victorian Railways C Class which didn't like the conversion and was quickly switched back to black coal.
The second was a Victorian Railways X Class which (because the brown coal conversion also added an automatic stoker) ended up outperforming the black coal versions to the degree where it was announced *all* X class would be converted but that fell through when the price of the local pulverised brown coal increased to the point where it wasn't worth it any more.
The X class trials initial success also resulted in one of the then-new R Class passenger express locomotives to be converted where it was found to make 15hp less than the rest of its class but was considerably more efficient to the point where a 320km (200mi) trip between Melbourne and Bendigo and back with 350-ton on the back used 1.5 tons less coal.
You can see photos of the PBR-equipped C class and X class on their respective wikipedia pages if you're interested.
Now I understand why James May once said electricity is essentially magic.
1:45 " I kind of find appealing"...just admit it, you drool when 'Baby's Got Back'!!
Power conversion to DC in an AC powered locomotive is a very common thing until very recent.
It was the only way to have proper speed control as in the Italian example in this video with 3 Phase motors the speed was dependent on the frequency of the current, and not the voltage as in a DC motor.
As the frequency is a fixed parameter of the supplied power there is only one fixed speed at which the AC motors will turn.
In the Italian locomotives the problem was somewhat overcome by switching the motors between single phase operation, star and triangle configuration, this gave a total of 4 fixed speeds to choose from.
With single phase there isn't much to choose from, the voltage can't be controlled in an easy manner, hence the conversion from AC to DC.
Normally this is done with a transformer and rectifiers, motor control is done by shunt resistor banks or rheostats which varies the DC voltage.
In the Austrian locomotive a single phase AC motor drove a DC generator to accomplish this, and this was maybe done to avoid the rectifier step to go from AC to DC, as those rectifiers were mercury arc rectifiers consisting of large glass tubes with a vacuum and a bit of mercury in them, those were relatively fragile and a motor/generator group would be more robust, although more maintenance was required as it had rotating parts.
In the 1960s solid state rectifiers were introduced, and in the 1970s thyristor control came which could chop the sine wave of AC current at variable intervals enabling speed control of AC commutated motors or DC motors after rectifying.
Modern electrics use inverters and variable frequency control, the inventers make 3 phase AC current from single phase AC or DC current from the overhead wires.
This 3 phase AC current goes to the VFD control and by varying the frequency the motor speed of the 3 phase traction motors is controlled, a 3 phase motor does not need brushes like a DC or commutated AC motor and therefore needs minimal maintenance.
Quite fascinating - I love those early side-rod electrics which were really built using steam era technology, before modern traction motors and axle hung drive were developed. Funny thing is that axle hung motors were already used on trams and streetcars; possibly it wasn't considered robust or powerful enough? As for turbomotives - the LMS Pacific of that name was very successful as a main line express engine. Problem was she required a permanent third crewman riding her, a fitter, in case anything went wrong en route, and she also needed a separate engine to move her in reverse when in the yards. Rebuilt as a normal "Princess" class Pacific, "Princess Anne", she was sadly smashed beyond repair in the Harrow disaster of 1952.
there must have been a massive increase in stability and low wear on the track, no hammer blow to try to counterbalance. I thought turbomotive looked very purposeful and evolutionary. what a fascinating video.
I'm sorry when you mentioned that BBO 1082 disappeared from the historical record. All I could think of was that I wanted to make some sort of ridiculous fiction about it.
Like maybe the Nazis did experiments and turned it into a time machine or something. Cuz let's be honest that locomotive will make a great time machine. Did it make a wuring sound from the converter.
Can you make more vids on armoured trains
The Austrian locomotive basically was a Ward Leonard-drived machine. I wonder why the literatures don't mention this locomotive.
Yey! The Kandó triangle, and the prototype locomotive with it, have been realised!
Kandó have done an interesting phase converter too that alowed 50Hz overhead lines. The converter made 1 phase into 3 phases (it was a rotor that generated the two additional phases and worked better at the time than the Skot transformator), so the tracktive motor had a better start twork.
Kandó in fact has made fundamental basics in elecric railway technology: he stated that effective electic locomotives must use the conventional, 1-phase AC lines of the countries, not separated. He not just recognized that it needed to be high voltage (16, 25 kV) to the point of the locomotive itself to remain effective, I mean the long distance transportation of the elecricity, instead he made it in opeation too. He also stated you need 3-phase AC to effectively operate your locomotive, and he experimented with different approaches: phase changing and period changing techniques, and also these combined. His first 1-phase AC high voltage locomotive even utilized pole-switching technique, there was 2-3-4 phase operation.
Nowadays, modern electric locomotives all utilize his fundamental priciple: 3-phase and frequency changing, traction given by asynchronous motors. Improvements are obviously made since, as we rectify the single phase AC now and generate the desired frequency 3-phase AC to the motors by semiconductors, without any moving part. Also motors are arranged to axles separately (Bo'Bo, Co'Co), there are even experiments vith direct drive (no gears!)...
Your train videos are so good that they made me sub
So a phase converter is literally an AC motor coupled to a DC generator.
Yeah, I guess that's a call to tech support.
Hello, IT, have you tried turning it off and on again?
For Mike . Austrian 1082 at 3:52.
Is there any footage of the #1 engine? I really want to see how those bars move.
my reactions to all these engines: Lignite Coal Burner engine: where is the boiler they didnt show us the full picture? Modified Zolley Turbine Experiment: ok im scared of this engine and im loosing my mind. BBO 1082: NO NO NO MORE ELETRIC WIRE ENGINE. Steam-Diesel opposed- piston no. 8000: wait didnt LNER already try this? why did they think it was a good idea to make this WORSE?
FS E.552: im done. this is TOO FAR
It’s a normal boiler. It’s just that the tender has to be huge in order to carry enough low grade coal to run it.
It’s on the list because…well what was the point?
So no ones gonna mention how that first engines tender is basically All Engines Go?
Steam turbines not as problematic as you suggest. More an issue with gas turbines. I understand no steam is consumed when standing still unlike gas turbine locomotives such as the UP big blow gas turbines.
I think he thinks the problems of gas turbine locomotives are present in steam turbine locomotives.
The LMS Turbomotive pacific worked well, but not well enough to justify the extra cost of the non standard steam turbine.
Close to every modern steam locomotive ran a steam turbine, but just a small one to generate electricity for the headlights etc.
Just about all electricity used is from steam turbines especially Nuclear power stations and coal fuelled electricity generation.
The picture of the first one is actually a coaldust fired DRG BR 56
Lignite is peat with ambition.
The OBB 1082.001 electric needs to be made in o scale solid brass die cast. Talk about a powerhouse.
This video is basically describing the NIR standar gauge 4-4-0s
i love your videos, i really do, but you do know we also have made good locomotives and trains here in Italy right? Like the class E.428 or the ETR 300 "Settebello".
You should start with ETR200 which is one of the sexiest looking trains even by today's standards. Well ahead of the time in the 1930s.
@@maxart3392 I love the 200 but I Stil would put the Settebello on top as far as sexiness and elegance, or even it's little brother the etr 252 Arlecchino
He's joking
i am aware, i still like it a lot
E.464 anyone?
What's called a phase converter is what's know as a freak drive( variable fre drive) which comverts ac current to dc
m.ruclips.net/video/B20JJuj4SQw/видео.html
This is literally all I can think of when I see the name on the tender of the lignite burner.
Incidentally, it is the same company, sort of. AEG was a big German company that made all kinds of stuff, including power tools. Eventually, the company was broken up, and the division with the power tools was sold to Electrolux, who then also acquired the rights to the brand name. They then liscensed the brand name to TTI, the parent company of power tool brands Milwaukee, Ryobi, and Ridgid. So, modern AEG tools are rebadges of tools that are sold in the US as Ridgid.
Yeah that BBO 1082 does nothing but remind me of the galaxy railways anime I forget the name but I am VERY sure that one of the trains in that series is definitely based off this
Galaxy Express 999
@@Elios0000 no not that maybe the ghost train from that series but definitely not three 9
Ah, yes. I see most obscure source of the internet: German wikipedia.
Sadly, that is sometimes true. I was trying to find English Wikipedia on the Wilcke Wurst scandal, and eventually I had to go to German Wikipedia and rely on the most ham-fisted German to English translation I have ever seen!
Do you think you can do a video on the old Maltese national railway?
Well if you believe some European treasure hunters she may be the locomotive used for the "Nazi Gold" train. A train alleged to have been loaded up with priceless gold, artwork, and Artifacts thrown into one of the many Rail tunnels leading into and through the alps and lost due to the bombardments near the end of the war. Many Rail tunnels were lost due to the War so anything is pssible.
Forget the Superstition Mountains in Arizona. I think the Alps might be a better place to treasure hunt. That train sounds a lot more attractive than the Lost Dutchman's Mine. Plus folks looking for the Dutchman's gold tend to come to a bad end.
Please stop using background music. It really detracts from your great videos.
I too like the visual appeal of the lignite burner, but I can only imagine all the ash that Lignite made was a nightmare.
6:55 A locomotive with a motor-generator the size of a steam boiler sounds rather terrifying.
I need all these in HO scale with directional lighting and smoke units. Love your style you could have talked trashed but you take the high road and this is not a make fun of but more try to figure out thier thinking and explain their designs or thier principal theory. I really want to model the first one with the lignite tender. It looks like a cheap but a "I really worked hard on this" Vanderbuilt tender. I know Vandi cams are for oil burners but you said it runs on coal dust so it has an Archimedes screw system to yeet the coal dust in the fire box. I like them all but that tender spoke to me. People always focus on locomotives and caboose's and intermodels. I like tenders and livestock and poultry cars. Which mr zadoc street patented 2 designs for in Chicago for stock cars in the 1800s. And we're last used up until being phased out in the mid-late 1980s. But tenders are the most important part of a steam trains. No tender means no coal or water. But are factored into the locomotives overall dead weight. That's why switcher units got saddle tanks and coal bunker to eliminate the tender dead weight. A video on tenders would be awesome. Like caboose's having center cupula and offset and bay window and 3 window 4 window.there are diffrent types of tender designs. Love your content. Darkness you rock.
There are bigger tenders the that, have a Look at the German class 53 or the class 45 (both tenders are just longer tho)
Didn't the GG1 also contain a motor-generator set?
Yes, to run DC auxiliaries. The overhead supply was 11Kv @ 25 Hz and went to AC traction motors.
I feel like I'm too immature to hear the word "lignite." Great video nonetheless!
Finally an Italian electric
Hard to keep up with those weird trains of thought!
The first one... the tender... it was
... A WARNING
(aeg)
(All engines go)
Electricity covers distance best at extremely high voltage DC but it is very difficult to achieve high voltage DC.
Im guessing it also had mercury vapor rectifiers
WHY ARE THEY EXPERIMENTING ON ALL OF THE 4-6-0’s!!?!??!?!?!?!?!!!
Me when HID Said Big chungus: BIG BIG CHUNGUS BIG CHUNGUS BIG CHUNGUS
The Kando-drive and such-like are not that unusual: The Swiss crocodile-type locs all use it and quite a number of them are still running. The German crocodiles seem to manage without, probably AC motor technology was better when they were built
DtC: "I am your HoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOsT!"
Me: WHA'? ^^
Had me in stitches! :D
8:26 It actually means "Putin"... XD
14:38 WHA'? XD
0:59 oh dear
dark when are you gonna let the dutch trains out of the basement
0:40 Damn boy!! That s thick.🤑😛🤑
Soviet union had weird locomotives and locomotive concepts and designs and rail breakers
The 8000 honestly feels like it would be from Russia, even if it wasn’t.
Ah yes, the ligma burner
Fact: the Crews of the soviet diesel.hybrid kept their mouths shut around soviet commanders because of Stalins nature
Darkness likes his women like his trains
BIG CHUNGUS
What?!? You got through a whole video without mentioning British Rail? 🤭
But a whole lot of funky European locos, though...
It's not the first time
A lignitie Lokomotive. Why are we germans like this!
I am your HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOST
No BR today? 🙂
11:37 It's pronounced "KAHN-doh".
Where BR
*Lignite balls*
AUSTRIAAAAAAA
What in the world??
A Bi-Polar on meth?
The bipolar works pretty much the same way... but have bipolar motors in steed of the normal (back then) quad polar.
Later engines like the class 103, Rb and Rc used bipolar motors as well. They simply powered on the AC current a set time after crossing 0V to get diffrent voltage.. hence changing voltage with no moving part.
The only moving part needed is the motor brush.
will smith
Boy is he getting a lot wrong in this new vid.
Like what?
Kalman Kando was a true Pioneer, he established the oldest 50 Hz eletrification system ever in hungary, the complicated locomotives (rotating phase converters) that were needed in those days were considered necessary to have the complete benefit of the most simple electricity transmission.
Interestingly he transformed the 50Hz current not to DC current but to a three phase alternating current, resulting in few fixed speed settings. (compare the boxcabs of Virginian Railroad)
The Kando drive was not the most important invention of him although he liked it. It was an attempt to create a side rod drive which equalizes the spring play of the drivers in a kinematic correct manner.
The most impressive locomotoves with this drives were the hungary built class E402 of the Paris-Orleans Railway of france.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2BB2_400#/media/File:PO_E_402.jpg
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2BB2_400