The Mason bogies issues with steam leakage were largely due to the limitations of the time they were built. The engines worked well as light flexible engines finding success with many railroads like the Denver South Park & Pacific (One of the last railroads to retire their Bogies) or suburban railways like the New York & Manhattan Beach and Boston, Revere Beach & Lynn (The BRB&L continued ordering engines to the Mason Bogie design well after the Mason Machine works stopped producing locomotives) And once you dig into what crews thought of these engines you quickly find that crews loved Mason Bogies and the issues of steam leakage could be mitigated by good maintenance. So no I don't think the Manson Bogie design was bad in fact I think it's a very underrated design that could've been successful if they found their way into modern steam.
Yeah the Mason design was a lot better than people gave it credit for, there's a reason the survivor was in service for 90 years before it got sent to a museum.
honestly all i can think about with the whole battery mess with engines, is remembering the fact that every time I wanted to use my cyclops in subnautica i needed to keep an eye on the fliping battery levels, and then drag all 6 of them inside my base when they needed a recharge. honestly it was one of the things i hated in that game
I'm sorry Darkness, but I've already gotta stop you on the Mason Bogie. For what they were designed to do, highly flexible locomotives for lightly laid track, especially in mountainous regions with tight curves, they were an excellent option. They even included some clever engineering features, like a slotted bottom to the smokebox that allowed the exhaust pipe from the power bogie to move side to side as the bogie swiveled. The only real bad things about the Mason Bogies were 1. flexible steam piping was not at its best in the Late 19th Century, so without proper maintenance the power bogie could be prone to steam leaking that reduced their power, and 2. they were a blatant attempt to subvert Robert Fairlie's patent and keep him out of the American market; Fairlie did attempt to sell both single and double-ended versions of his own locomotives in the US and Canada to varying degrees of success, even partnering with the Mason Machine Works. However, Mason continued manufacturing their own modified form of Fairlie-like locomotives after their license to the Fairlie patent expired. Point is, for their intended purpose, the Mason Bogies were excellent engines and do not deserve to be on this list.
Really, the worst part about a bogie is the pilot wheel design and its swivel. It was noted by the UP (after the buyout of it) that the way the lead wheel was designed subjected it to too much pressure and therefore friction, so the UP put their own design of front truck on them, and they purportedly ran better. In fact, the change in ride quality was so noticeable to even Mason Machine Works that they quickly changed the initial design's inner thrust blocks for the pilot wheels, and that had a similar affect in smoothing out the ride. I have an entire book on the M.M.W. and it's full of interesting things they did to improve their designs. (Also, the mason bogie was technically licensed from Fairlie, and was just a "better" single Fairlie)
Also, with the steam piping comment, the piping was improved a few times over the course of the bogie's production period, and it was generally rather good. Mostly, it just had two otherwise rigid pipes which could swivel in order to allow the engine unit to swivel. The steam leaking was supposedly far less of an issue than many may think. Personally, though, I still love Kitson-Meyers more than bogies, but they're both strange, beautiful machines
@@radioisotopics Thanks very much for the valuable information. I could have sworn there was some rivalry between Fairlie and Mason, the aforementioned story of Mason illegally patent-dodging once the license with Fairlie expired leading to bad blood between the two.
The Mason Bogies really excelled on the Narrow Gauge in mountainous territories with curving and weaving track. The most famous one would probably be from the DSP&P, having a large amount of them. Also, I believe Wabtec's battery locomotives work differently. From what I heard, they recharge using power wasted during braking, more commonly known as regenerative braking.
Even electric cars use regenerative braking. Regenerative breaking extends the range but the batteries would still need to be recharged. (Entropy and all that.)
They use battery locomotives on the London Underground to run maintenance trains without turning on the electric third rails and zapping the workers - that's the kind of use where they really come into their own, as you say. Strange little engines as well and I wish I could share pics here! I agree it's hard to imagine this working over long-distances though.
The plan for these over long-distances is to use them in consists with diesel-electrics to reduce emissions and form a hybrid consist, akin to a Prius but spread over multiple units.
With the battery concept I needed to watch you to the very end, before I hit into the keys. Glad you pointed out the option of bridging a gap without a power line running over the track, I think in Germany is a concept like that already in production. Usually taking the power from the grid, but where the lines aren't electrified, they can go up to 150km at their regular speed of 120km/h on battery, and as soon as they have power over them again, they run on grid and recharge their batteries. Until they manage to close the gaps in the grid, I think that is quite the best solution one can have. The battery concept has one really big flaw overall, no matter which type of battery you use: energy density is limited. If you want to go further on battery, you need more batteries, which weigh a lot, and the more weight you have to haul, the more power you need. And capacity is only one thing. Current is another limiting factor. Drawing 600A at 15kV from a copper wire, yeah, sure, just make the wire thick enough. Drawing that much power from a battery, not so much.
As far as turbo encabulators are concerned, the problem of sourcing conundrium for the fluxmusters was very difficult, and don't get me started on the Milford Trunions which had a nasty tendency to clash with the output connectors, causing many an uncontrolled encabulation reaction, which fed too much power to the, you guessed it, those pesky fluxmusters. One can only dream of what could have been.
@@soco13466 Am I? Have you seen how easy it is to sucker people into believing that the themes of a piece of media/literature, are actually the complete opposite of the original intention? Like thinking something is pro-establishment, when it's really anti-establishment?
@retrogamelover2012 Sense of humor, hint hint. My post wasn't serious. It was a jab at technical explanations. I assume you are not familiar with the turbo encabulator videos. BTW, lack of a sense of humor is an indication of... well, I'd better not say. Sourpuss. You took it WAY too seriously.
The biggest factor against electrification is the grid. The power grid is outdated and already strung out to the max. Maybe just maybe we should build a grid that can handle the added electrical power before we jump off of internal combustion entirely.
Here in the Netherlands we have a battery powered train that is used for maintenance work, they can still drive electricaly when the overhead wires are cut off, they still pull the power to charge them from the overhead wires and is a locomotive with a battery car behind it
I'm a huge fan of Torh Lake, she's one of my favorite steam locomotives, especially as i live so close to it and have ridden on Torch Lake multiple times I was not ready for Torch Lake and the Masson Bogies to be in a list like this 😭
I remember putting the "Perfected Locomotive" on a cursed train series on my own channel. I truly had no idea it was a joke, I just thought he was on something strong.
The battery electric locomotive discussion is actually interesting because it raises an important question: is it cheaper to fully electrify or just use battery locomotives
the first one, hands down. yes, starting off, battery locomotives don't cost as much as electrifying, but then the costs of replacing the batteries when they wear down and keeping up maintenance on the charging station starts adding up, and meanwhile the Northeast Corridor is over here with a TREMENDOUS initial cost of building the infrastructure, but now the only cost is upkeep of it, and the locomotives run at full power all the time! That's another downside to battery vehicles; as time goes on, the battery wears down, meaning the vehicle can do less and less until it completely dies!
@@Railman1225 you also have to consider that big freight railways like the UP and BNSF have ridiculous amounts of track and full electrification and regular maintenance could be cost prohibitive on such a large scale. I agree with you on this, but class 1 railroads are very hesitant to do things like electrification when you consider how low the immediate profit would be
In Europe, there are trains that run on batteries, BUT they still need the overhead wires (which are oftentimes available for at least parts of the journey)charge them. Second, BUT these are relatively lightweight EMUs for commuter services. So it does kinda work
@@juliankremer1900 "Ah yes, let's have a vehicle that travels through major cities powered by a source where if something goes wrong, it could irradiate its surroundings for decades!"
@HistoryintheDark 13:03 You 99% nailed the battery powered vehicles and why there a terrible idea in general. P.S. The 1% that you missed (kinda surprised you did), is the horrific fire hazard lithium ion is if it happens to ignite.
The Mason Bogie itself wasn't a bad locomotive. However, the problem that companies which used them discovered, was that while the Single Fairlie design worked well in the UK, it didn't do so in the US. The problem was not, as you might think, down to the steam line connections. It was down to speed. In the UK, a single fairlie locomotive only would reach about 10mph. In the US, though, they'd often reach three and four times that speed. Companies discovered that the faster the locomotives ran, the more susceptible to hunting oscillation they became. Meaning they were very rough riding locomotives. This rough riding, in turn, meant that the locomotives were very prone to derailing, even on perfectly straight and level track. Another problem the design had, was the overall lack of braking on the power truck. Due to the way the braking system worked, and how busy things were on that power truck, it meant that the only bogey that could be braked, was the rear truck under the bunker. Because of this, the trains were very difficult to stop. Lastly, their braking system was a rather complicated vacuum brake, which was completely incompatible with the Westinghouse air brake system. This wasn't an issue at first, when the engines started being sold, as most rolling stock wasn't even braked to begin with at the time. However, over time, when the Westinghouse system became standard, it required some serious rebuilds to allow the mason bogies to operate with other rolling stock. The game Railroads Online actually has one modeled, which you the player can drive. It's accurately modeled down to the finer details, including only having brakes on the rear bogey. Really interesting engine, to say the least, though you can see why railroads hated them. They are prone to derail in game, just like the real ones were.
The Battery 🔋 Road Locomotives by Wabtec to me, seem to be sort of like a SLUG that is packed with batteries and can be conrolled/charged from the connected Locomotives.... the batteries are also charged by dynamic brakes which to me makes sense. I just hope they don't end up being an expensive non-solution
I definitely agree with this take. I think the reason that it’s not discussed in those terms is simply because “WabTec makes incremental improvement on 70 year old technology that most people are unaware of” doesn’t grab headlines like “Tesla of the rails” does. Even if that’s the messaging that goes out, it’s important to remember that we’re not the customers, the class 1s are. WabTec is not going to trip over themselves explaining the highly technical aspects of their product to laypeople, when they can simply enjoy the reputation boost and focus on selling those aspects to the railroads.
I'd imagine a triplex or even quadroplex could exist in a fantasy universe where steam could be generated in massive amounts and pressure from a smaller space. Like an atomic reactor or other advanced thermal reaction introduced to a primitive civilization. Like the inexplicable "Steam Ball" from the animated film, Steamboy created by Katsurhiro Otomoto.
I imagine there's fantasy universe that steam locomotive were using super big and efficient on-site steam engine and they powered multiple locomotive at same time thru magic-power-transfer device or some kind Imagine if we had those kind of technology. Hm...
The airlocks of the Hypertube concept might be useful for trains connecting cities on Mars that are either domed or inside airtight underground enclosures. The Hypertube trains themselves would also be a good fit for that situation - although not inside of long tubes. As for battery powered trains - "pure" battery powered engines might have some limited specific limited uses like a train yard or mines. A variant of that concept which you mentioned at the end, the Battery-Electric engine would be useful in hauling maintenance trains in tunnels where the power has been cut off (for the maintenance or just a power failure).
Brits have some overhead+battery+diesel locomotives in service. [For that matter, there is some multiple units that work like that]. The multiple unit has a range of about 80km purely on batteries, can kick in the diesels if it needs more range, can recharge battery if it brakes using regenerative braking and of course can run on overheads while recharging the battery. Allowing you to use them to skip over small sections of non-electrified lines. Which previously would require you to use a diesel multiple unit to service that route. My country is planning to buy similar multiple units to replace two purely diesel locohauled services that run for a big chunk of their length under wires and then run into non-electrified territory. We already have a few battery powered shunters.
Had they bothered to put in nitrogen into that capsule's atmosphere, the chances of a fire breakout would have been notably reduced. Would have also helped had they not put so much flammable equipment inside the capsule and the space suits would have been the A5-L (prototypes for the more famous A7-L).
Darkness, I appreciate you shedding light on the issue of lithium mining with electric vehicles. I propose that, if they really want to go green for vehicles, they pretend it's World War 2 and nonrenewable resources are considered 'Strategic'. Now attempt to build an efficient locomotive using as many parts (up to and including fuel and lubricants) that are made with renewable materials instead. Heck, make it a competition to see who could pull it.
Battery locomotives were meant for australian "infinity train" that carries iron ore downward - from mines to ports. Batteries were charged while dynamic braking and the energy was used to pull the empty cars back. Hybrid sounds reasonable, check out japanese locomotive HD300.
Another problem with battery powered vehicles is that if a battery were shot or damaged or anything happened where a spark would be caused well.... kaboom, and a big, immediate one at that, no chance to see it coming, let alone escape. So no, batteries are not good idea. But since we're talking about electric trains..... Darkness! It's that time again when I remind you of some awesome Italian trains to look at! Two electric ones you really should cover are the E.428 (An old workhorse) And the ETR 300 "Settebello" (Literally "Seven of Golds", a luxury train, precursor to modern high speed trains). Anyway, great video as always!
1. Maglev>hyperloob In all countries, including America 2. I want all Class-1’s to electrify their lines with overhead wires, even if they need government assistance and partial (temporary)nationalization like Conrail did early on. Overhead electrification is what will make North America look smarter for its wealth in the eyes of the rest of the world, both financially, and economically.
Battery hybrid electric locomotives are probably the optimal solution for the future. Mainline electrification is expensive, but those lines have sufficient traffic to support it, but short lines, industrial applications, maintenance facilities and yards &c don’t. That seems to get missed out by a lot of commentators. There is also the potential for power outages caused by extreme weather (like icing on wires or heat causing problems with wire tension) which can on disable centenary. This would make battery electric hybrid locomotives or EMUs really the ideal solution for long haul trains, with pure battery power ideal for shorter runs. As an aside, I really hate when commentators complain that such and such environmental proposal isn’t a panacea, and act as if it is some kind of great win. Yes, no one technology is going to solve the climate crisis. That is going to take a major change in the way we live as a species. But it’s no reason to oppose efforts to try and make things better, even a little bit! If you in fact support reducing emissions, then you are obligated to at least *try* to implement solutions such as they currently exist, rather than hold out for some panacea that may never come. Otherwise you don’t really support anything other than the status quo.
There's a mine train in Australia that uses battery locomotives. The mine is at the top of a hill, they load the train up with iron ore, it goes down the hill using regenerative braking until it reaches the port at the bottom where it's unloaded. The train now has enough energy to run empty back up to the mine, without any external powering. Obviously this is a very specific situation that can't be used everywhere, but it is one of the other times where battery locomotives make sense. On the other hand I think battery passenger (city) trains that can power up in seconds at stations, like some trams do, could be a cheaper solution than full electrification, especially where you have networks with double stack freight using the same lines etc.
@@True_NOON give it massive drivers or at least make them a bit bigger Its a quadruplex so power aint the issue. Might as welk drop a tiny bit into speed.
I would not be surprised if the Class 1 freight railroads used double stacking as an excuse to not electrify their lines. But India finished constructing their electrified double stacking line at least 2 years ago.
Yes. Also, India is constructing dedicated freight corridors (purely for freight trains), which has high rise wires allowing for conventional double stacking. All the locos allocated to this section are retrofitted with longer pantographs which can reach the tall wiring and run at 100+ kph speeds on full loads.
The first “locomotive” (if you want to dignify that thing with the name, “locomotive”) may have been a joke, but the idea of recirculating the exhaust gases (and smoke) is common in many modern diesel (and some gasoline) engines today, mostly to meet emissions criteria.
The Gilderfluke engine didn't happen to appear in the April 1st issue of Railway gazette by some chance, did it? The Ffestiniog Railway have recently built a new 'Talesin' or 'single Fairlie' and, I understand, she's not too popular with the crews for some reason. The original Talesin was the road's 'express' engine, and very fast.
Your mention of battery locomotives make me think of a couple of ideas from Britain.... calm, calm. The Class 139s are a fleet of two railcars, which have NO ENGINE (at least for propulsion), and rely on FLYWHEELS instead. Okay, they aren't that fast (they're restricted to about 20mph/32kph), but the route they're used on is so short that speed isn't an issue (only 5 minutes end-to-end), and if you were doing a list of the "Cutest Trains In The World"... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_139 The other point to note is that we HAVE Battery locomotives in Britain - on the London Underground. The current fleet were built between 1964 and 1974 (fitted with lead acid batteries) and run at 320V DC when the power (630V DC) is switched off - curiously, they cannot recharge while in use (though a later batch from 1985, now scrapped, could). en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground_battery-electric_locomotives
????? Mason Bogies Weren't a bad Idea they were a fundamental and hyper practical solution to a very Niche problem some short lines had. Plus they were a successful company that got swooped up into Alco and the developments of the Mason Bogies are why the Challengers and Big boys became Viable. Another thing about them was all Mason Bogies were mainly 3ft Narrow gauge locomotives.
Some of Italians E464 have been modified by adding batteries to work in the IC/icn service to sicily, so they can load the train on the ferry by themselves, reducing the time used by the operartion
I would agree with the battery trains. The only good use for them is at industrial sites (like a factory or mine or a grain elevator). I honestly would go for electric trains with the overhead wires. The Milwaukee Road had the western extension in Idaho and Montana for decades. When the electric operations ended in 1974, they still had a handful of boxcab locomotives built in the 1910s still in service 🤷♂️
Ireland ran a set of battery locomotives for years. They ran on something called a Drumm battery. They ran for about 40 miles on a charge - fine for a commuter railcar. They ran in service for about 17 years and were retired when the batteries were worn out. They charged at the station while stopped. Charge at station - run - charge at station - run - charge at station - run.
13:03 AMEN! I 100% agree with you on ALL of your points darkness. I can recall last year how a certain mining company went round to private schools in Perth Western Australia and said they wanted to electrify all of their machinery. I happen to have been sitting at the back of one of these and I go “oh so they’re putting overhead wires on the fortescue that’s cool-“ NO. NO I WAS COMPLETELY AND TERRIBLY WRONG! Apparently they reckon that by 2025, according to said mining company that they’re going to implement batteries into all the mining equipment, battery technology that, need I remind you HAS NOT BEEN INVENTED YET!! It’s absurd! EV’s or at least the ones they’re pushing are not going to be the future. If they had any common sense they’d look to the past and see what their ancestors did with developing technology, and know what not to do. But then again, it seems that once again they refuse to acknowledge the history, and it’s left in the dark…
I may be wrong here, but I would think that battery locomotives would be used to augment existing locomotives rather than outright replace them, at least in heavy haul freight service. I seem to recall an article stating that they would be used on acceleration to provide extra power to get the train up to speed, then shutting off when the train was at speed. That way, the diesel locomotives were under less load, thus using less fuel (a lot of fuel is burned getting that much weight moving, obviously), and reducing overall emissions.
The big use I can see battery locos for is in a consist with (currently) other regular diesels as a place for wasted electricity to go when stopping/slowing a consist. Like dynamic brakes waste a shit ton of electricity because current diesels have no place to send that power except it gets wasted as heat. Eventually I see diesels being replaced with hydrogen as the fuel source of choice in places like the US where the Class 1s refuse to electrify.
The last of the Br Class 313's, a venerable old servant on British Rail, is about to run for the last time. They have run, mostly successfully, for nearly 47 years. Yes, you heard me right, 47 years! A dual-voltage EMU, that has served on the Great Northern lines out of the London (and replaced the APPALING Br class 125 DMU's in the process), the Great Eastern on London-Colchester services, the North London services to Watford and St Albans, and finally the Coastaway services between Southampton and Brighton (but latterly just Brighton - Seaford and Brighton - Newhaven), they are finally going to be withdrawn on th 21st of May, and only one of the units is scheduled to be preserved (but watch this space - further developments on preservation maybe occuring!). A tribute to these really useful (see what I did there?) units would be a perfect video. (And will show you that sometimes, British Rail got it (mostly) right.) (But don't crib from Jago Hazzard - unless you ask him politely!) Yours, Bob Willoughby
@@kennethhanks6712 thing is, the efficiency savings will *always* break even at some point, this is just an industry that has continuously chosen 1 cookie now over 3 cookies later since the 1840s
@Gonzo Engineering Believe you are missing the point of economic realities here. If a line or route does not have the traffic or volumn to generate the necessary revenue to pay for a certain operations expenses to run plus what it cost to set up and maintain a type of infrastructure then no matter HOW long you go it will always need to have outside subsidization to continue. The NE Corridor has the traffic to justify complete electrification based on its ability to generate the needed traffic/volumn to sustain itself. To the other extreme a secondary grain hauling line in Iowa with 2-3 trains per day, no matter how long you give it, would never generate enough to pay to install and maintain a catenary/electrification and operate it--unless there would be an injection of more traffic to generate more income or a massive change in the basic economic conditions that prevailed when the operation was initiated.
BR and LU have used battery locomotives for decades but for one use only to move maintenance trains in tunnels were normal electric locomotives could not be used as the power was off and diesels would have filled the tunnels with toxic fumes. This is the only sensible use, other than in shunting yard (there is a new battery electric bring used in the UK for shunting). The only other use of battery propulsion is on EMUs for movement within yards on non-electrified lines.
lets all agree that the hyperloop is also a death machine becouse most designs are drawn with jet engines, but like, where is all the hot exhaust from said jet engine going?? into the cabin? are the passangers getting air blasted by hurracane force winds at skin melting temperatures? i think thats called ''hell'' and not ''hyperloop''
Funny how the railies consider battery-locomotives, whilst the truck guys think about possibilities to charge battery trucks on the move (including lane holding assists (so basically virtual rails) and two pantographs on the roof)
4:20 I have an issue with this. Yes, this is a freak of nature and should have never been built, But I love his quirkiness and how unconventional he is.
5:21 But the problem of saying he could of made a tank engine or tender engine is: First: A tank engine can’t hold as much coal and water as a Mason Bogie And 2nd: A tender engine can’t go well in reverse So the Mason Bogie is the perfect engine for the rough logging railroads which may not have turntables i think 5:32 But the engine can go in reverse well and can go one tight curves, and the large bunker allows a lot more coal and water Kinda a jack of both trades, but kinda mastered at both
Battery powered locos actually alreddy existed. The Swedish Ö Series.. (yes. Ö) used batteries. it was basically a normal AC-DC electric loco that have NiFe batteries in the DC section of the drive train. This was used to drive on short routes in harbors and industrial tracks where there was no power. They was also used for line work. There was 48 of them built. The original Öa and Öb series was just horribly bad. The Öc and Öb was basically two Öb put together converting them from a B loco to a BoBo loco. They was built from 1927 to 1949. The was in service until mid 80s when they was replaced by diesel. Worth saying is that in recent time some diesels have been rebuilt with old GE 28liter engines, to modern 16liter truck engines. Because they are diesel-electric they have a small accumulator to match the power of the older engines. Effectively a hybrid loco. Those work pretty well.
There is a governor who shall remain nameless, who recently amended the DOT's budget increase, so that all new loco stock purchased has to be battery powered. These are trains that run on the electrified Northeast Corridor. Their own network is 80% electrified. The DOT wanted to make that 100% before this mandate. So yeah, thank you for speaking out about these menaces.
Agreed, catenary is a proven technology for over a HUNDRED years! Or in an urban setting as in New York City and electrified 3rd rail. I really enjoy the channel, thank you. Keep up the good work! All the Best, Pete.
Battery electric locomotives probably will have a place in yards, just because for all benefits catenarys have, they are simply incompatable with cranes and chutes that load trains from above. wich is probalby 90% of all loading operations that don't happen to be fluid related. Those howerver bring theit own set of dificulties, since a lot of those are combnustables and you arent't really able to bring a catrenary near to those either, because those have a nasty tndecy to throw sparks.
Battery powered locomotives are really just the modern equivalent of the fireless steam engine. Can't go far or fast but fits in a role that is already filled by better designs.
A good use of a battery-powered locomotive would be in place of a slug in a mother-slug set. This way, the slug wouldn’t have to steal power from the mother; it’s own batteries would do that. And regenerative braking can recharge the batteries (any excess can be dissipated via dynamic brakes, if the mother has them). The slug could also be lined with solar panels on top for more battery charging fun. It would also be handy in case the mother runs out of diesel fuel; it could at least, propel itself to the nearest siding to get out of the way, or to the diesel service facilities, if it’s in the yard. One could also be paired with an “electric” locomotive (one that picks up power from overhead wire, or a third rail.) in case the main power is lost; the train set could proceed at reduced speed to the nearest station so passengers could disembark.
Well, here are some German numbers. Over 90% of the traffic is being done electrically. However, only around 60% of tracks are electrified. Now for freight, the difference is currently being managed with diesel locomotives and some of the new dual-mode ones. For passengers, it's currently DMUs and rarely diesel locomotives, but there's strong pressure to replace diesels. Of course, tracks could be electrified, and a number of such projects are in various different stages. But if you're looking at a track that just has a few local trains, it seems reasonable to look for alternatives, and so we have a number of areas trying out both hydrogen and battery-powered EMUs. The batteries can usually be charged via overhead wires or third rail (whatever actually exists somewhere in the area) enough for the train to reach the next place it can charge; where that doesn't work, hydrogen is preferred. In any case, long-term, electrification is, as far as I can tell, still preferred. Now as to lithium, I have two points to make and will preface them by saying I'm not an expert, not even someone who's intently following these developments - just points I've heard others bring up more than once. First, the amount of minable lithium is still fairly large. And second, it seems more environmentally friendly mining methods are actually being developed. So it seems to me this looks better than this video argued. But anyway, enough people are working on developing better batteries that it seems likely that we'll at some point be able to produce batteries without lithium, the same way we're already able to produce batteries without cobalt (see LFP). How useful that will be for trains is, of course, anyone's guess. Oh, and for areas where trains make no economic sense - such as typical US suburbs or generically small villages randomly dotted over a large area - electric cars seem to be more than a band-aid. Possibly also city driving, depending on the circumstances. Long-distance travel, sure, use trains, absolutely no argument.
Ya know when it came to the quadroplex, I don’t think there would be any way for it to work because it’s a single boiler design. I have a design of a quadroplex that has two identical boilers with cabs at the back heads. And in between the cabs there’s one of the seven water tanks. The wheel arrangement btw is a 6-10-10-6-6-10-10-6, the six wheels are not powered, only the sets of tens are. Also it is electrically heated, and it self sustains the battery’s that power it.
That first locomotive reminds me of a joke datasheet about some electronic component called a WOM (write-only memory, so you can save data but not read it out. Details include a maximum temperature lower than the minimum temperature, and a pin you have to connect to hot water
Actually, the hyper loop was in a and iOS game that’s also on and android it’s called Tycoon Empire and you gotta see it but it does not take passengers it takes your materials
The absolutely insane thing about battery vs. overhead electric locomotives is that..... as early as the early 1900s we were building electric locomotives that had so much drawbar force they could routinely break couplers... because using an overhead line you can just deliver so much energy to a locomotive compared to what a battery pack would ever be capable of pumping out. But the other thing is........ BATTERIES HAVE LIMITED LIFESPANS. Literally ANY rechargeable battery chemistry you can think of has a limited number of "cycles" as it's called. Lithium batteries are no exception to this. A locomotive with batteries WILL need to have its extremely expensive (and full of toxic-to-mine refined materials like cobalt) batteries replaced, versus an overhead-electric locomotive maybe _occasionally_ needing to replace its inverter system or have maintenance performed on its pantographs, which are absurdly cheap by comparison.
I never understood all that excitement about hyperloops. Air resistance is already negligible for basically any train and pulling a vacuum on such a large vessel takes ridiculous amounts of energy, completely outweighing the energy saved due to less air resistance.
Lithium-ion batteries can catch FIRE and as such, these pose the risk of causing fires like WILDFIRES! The Durango & Silverton Narrow gauge railroad caught hell for starting a destructive wildfire when one of their K36 2-8-2 COAL BURNING steam locomotives as a stray cinder from one of them, so Durango & Silverton converted ALL of their K36s to burn oil instead of coal. They also bought a couple of diesels to help them run trains while they convert their K36s from coal burning to oil burning.
Hyperloop is technically historical since the original proposal was decades and decades ago. That's the easy to reach lithium...the hard to reach lithium, of which the U.S. has numerous sources of is far harder to extract and would be more costly...but if they want to make enough lithium - "any other substance" batteries that lithium will have to be mined.
17.35 we dutch are developing those kinds of locomotive for track maintaince and construction work as often with those the overhead wire arent yet installed or are disabled for safety when they run on normal lines they just work like regular locomotives with batteries incase overhead wire isnt available and personaly thats realy the only reason why battery locomotives should exist
I would add the 1929 German Rail Zeppelin to the list. The thing was extremely fast and sleek, but it couldn't climb ordinary gradients or go into reverse, and a propeller whirling a few feet from a train platform was not exactly safe. Coupled with a capacity less than that of one ordinary car made it nothing more than a plaything.
2:58 choke the fire indeed! Also this is what an egr does in a car by the way. Yes it is terrible. And yes it does lead to carbon deposits in your throttle body and intake manifold.
15:10, the funniest thing is that I saw proposals back 5-7 years ago, about trucks with overhead lines and pantagraphs. Like, why? Just use electric trains then.
Soooooo what youre saying about train 5 is that it was an attempt at an aftertreatment system in regards to sending the smoke to the firebox for reinceneration
If you ask me, I see the whole battery-electric locomotive program as a way for railroad companies to try to get around electrifying and improving their network, because “It has such a high operating cost!” Well at least you won’t have to buy as much diesel fuel for your trains. Sure the oil companies won’t like that, but I hope that isn’t a problem for the railroads. If it is, that would be another whole mess to sort out. And if anyone tries the old “bit overhead lines are so ugly!!!” bit, you know what else is going to be ugly? Your lungs if you keep breathing in all those gas and diesel fumes!
Battery powered trains would make sense for the UK, I know they already have a lot of trains that use both pantographs and diesel generators such as the Class 800 series to allow them to run off 25kv electric lines where those are available and then switch to the diesel generator when in areas without overhead lines such as in depots or routes that have not yet been upgraded. It would make sense to me to swap the diesel generators for batteries.
Yah, the hybridized method is the best for going full electric, that way they can spread out the cost by first converting the easily accessed sections to wire while letting the locomotive run off battery between them, and over time wire the other areas from easiest to access to hardest to access... even just leave some areas as gaps, like fire prone areas.
I'll agree with the battery locomotive being a bad idea. Locomotives need stupid amounts of power, and batteries that can deliver this power with sufficient range fill up a whole locomotive body. Also, not mentioned but availability will also be worse as for a regular diesel or electric locomotive, as charging those batteries takes more than a couple of hours. The cost of electrification will pay itself back in less than 10 years compared to the running costs of a battery locomotive, and don't say distances are too great in the US, just look to Russia where most of the important lines have overhead wires, even the Transsib which covers a distance of almost 5700 miles between Moscow and Vladivostok. On the other hand, the idea of having an overhead electric locomotive with some batteries in it as a last mile solution is a good one, no need to change to a diesel to get the train into the harbour or factory siding, also as a switcher with limited use like in a factory the battery locomotive could work, as distance and time used are limited and charging is always nearby.
Also people might argue that a lot of railroads in the us removed their electrification. And to that I say that they did that purely out of desperation. During the mid 20’th century the railroads were struggling because trucks and cars were taking over their business. They needed as much money as they could possibly get so they turned to one of their last hopes for some quick cash which was all the copper wire hanging over their mainlines. If we were to electrify again this would almost certainly never happen.
The biggest reason the class 1 railroads avoid the electrification issue (Aside from endless complaints about double stacking for intermodal freight) is because as you said its incredibly expensive up front and Wall street is perpetuating the importance of short term profits over long term benefits. Battery locos are only good in small short operations not these massove continent spanning rail lines which is why a hybrid diesel battery type would work much better as a sort of stopgap measure while the railroad begins electrifying portions of their lines, mainly the urban lines and maybe the busier main lines instead of doing everything at once
I always hated the idea of battery powerd locomotives. YES everything you said about it is correct, its a AWFUL idea. Worst part is that my country (despite having electric trains on most of our network) they will introduce battery powerd trains in 2030, for our local lines. Instead of adding the wires above the rails on our other lines. Its mainlly because the country doesnt have the money to add wires above the rails, but im angry cause there is a better solution for it. Whats more worse is that the govirment of Croatia decided to stop building electric trains as a whole once battery powerd trains arrive (We actually build our very own DMUs and EMUs). If those knock - offs will replace the classic EMD diesels we have. I will quit loving my countrys railroad forever. Btw this is a very well made video and i learned how not to design stupid ideas for trains.
Batteries of electric Locomotives should be the back up not the primary source of power. Save batteries for cases where having overhead lines is not feasible, namely yards and shops. Also, I could see battery Locomotives being beneficial for heritage railways, especially narrow guage ones, that want an electronic Locomotive for maintenance trains, but want to keep the look of the age of steam.
The reason why vacuum tube trains even were created conceptually was because...as impressive maglevs are, they still run into the problem air resistance. It's a major risk taking and may prove to still be way too ambitious for this current century. Still, that doesn't mean it won't continue to have potential hundreds or even thousands of years into thr future. Airplanes and tanks were once deemed to be improbable technologies. They literally date all the way back to da Vinci's time. Even if the dude hadn't intentionally sabotaged his own tank design (he hated the idea of his tank design being mass produced for war), it was never going to work out. Heck, the concept of tanks wasn't magically revived with Little Willie and British Mark 1. There was an actual serious proposal back in 1855 that looks truly bizarre. Considering it would have literally required a steam engine and keep in mind ship steam engines were massive at that point in time, it was understandably rejected. No doubt plenty; including Darkness yourself, are REALLY NOT going to be happy I'm defending vacuum trains at all (especially Hyperloop).
Hard disagree on the Mason locomotives, they were a pretty solid attempt to make a steam locomotive that could take tighter curves without the size of a typical articulated engine and removed most of the flaws of both the base double Fairlie and the rear tank engine. It should be noted as well that in the right hands Masons were a lot more durable than their reputation suggests, Torch Lake was in service with the Hecla and Torch Lake Railroad from 1873 to 1968, and has been in operation with the Henry Ford Museum ever since.
Don't ask me how I came up with this, but what would happen, if we just electrified the rails simmilar to a model train. As long as no one ever steps on the rails wouldn't it allow electrification at a way lower cost?
The last one... I'm an EV fanatic, and that's the worst idea anyone could come up with. Modern locomotives are already hybrids, so a battery pack in that could help save a little fuel when trying to get a train moving. Your idea of including batteries in a standard electric power unit that normally gets its power from power lines makes good sense. But a rechargeable locomotive should be left to going around the Christmas tree in the living room. I'm also NOT a fan of the Tesla semi for the same reason. I pull into a truck stop and fuel up for the next day's running, and then go to bed. When I wake up, I go. I intend to make 600 to 750 miles when I wake up. While I have rest, and inspection stops along the way, I definitely do NOT have time to top off a large battery pack at a supercharger that's not even near a truck stop. Nicola semis are the better choice because they're offered as fuel cell hybrids. Even then, while I trust myself with using hydrogen, have you seen some of the truck drivers out on the roads? That could be an explosive thing. Edison Motors has the right answer for over the road trucks, and railroads can do it too. Diesel electric battery hybrids. As I said, modern locomotives are already half way there.
The accident risks most often associated with a "hyperloop" capsule are really generally in the category experienced every day in commercial flight. Underground? Well how many subways and train tunnels are there in the world? My concerns have to do with attempting to maintain a vacuum over the entire length of the "Track". How much energy will that consume? Is that amount of energy really less than the losses to friction on a highly aerodynamic train? What will happen to the train mid route if there is a vacuum leak? Will it have to slow - or will it just consume more power? My understanding is that these are in no way a "pneumatic" train, but a mag-lev inside a vacuum tube to decrease air resistance. I find myself skeptical of the efficiencies to be gained.
On that #1 spot USA: Electric locomotives are a new thing Other railways: Hehe no! That’s already a thing. If you’re so interested in electric locomotives, why aren’t you electrifying your railways? USA: It’s too much money to put up every overhead wires to electrify the entire Class 1 Railroad only Amtrak and Metra can have those. Other Railways: Nonsense! You have like lots of money to plan that ahead! USA: Yes, on battery electric locomotives Other Railways: I’m done arguing with you.
In Re: Steam leaks on Mason Bogies - does anyone have any evidence that these were worse than the leaks experienced in every other type of articulated engine? How would they compare with say, a Beyer-Garratt? Was it a matter of the limits of the technology when they were in use?
I think the battery locomotives won’t be a success, think about the steep grades like Sand Patch and Cajon, won’t the battery run out before needing to be recharged? And some lithium batteries ( like my phone’s) are faulty.
Here in Europe we use 'battery' electric ships, hybrid ships, and HFC tugs ships and trains. We've also had Battery electric freight locos since the 20's . Also EV are literally everywhere. 25% of the vehicles in my street are electric. As for lithium, its old tech as far as batteries go. Theres about 15 different types of battery currently in development some of which look like they'll have a battery life in excess of 500yrs. Waaaaaaaaay beyond the life of any vehicle theyre fitted to. I dont really except your views on single Fairlies/Mason bogies either. but I think thats just a personal opinion thing. Although I suppose Forneys where more succesfull.
I mean mason bogies did like. Do a pretty decent job in revenue service, and improved a hell of a lot on fairlie's original patent, I wouldn't necessarily call them a bad idea, perhaps just a mediocre design.
![[4K 60fps] 20241113 152014 네가 와야 내가 간다](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/22m5f3eCgnc/mqdefault.jpg)
The Mason bogies issues with steam leakage were largely due to the limitations of the time they were built.
The engines worked well as light flexible engines finding success with many railroads like the Denver South Park & Pacific (One of the last railroads to retire their Bogies) or suburban railways like the New York & Manhattan Beach and Boston, Revere Beach & Lynn (The BRB&L continued ordering engines to the Mason Bogie design well after the Mason Machine works stopped producing locomotives)
And once you dig into what crews thought of these engines you quickly find that crews loved Mason Bogies and the issues of steam leakage could be mitigated by good maintenance.
So no I don't think the Manson Bogie design was bad in fact I think it's a very underrated design that could've been successful if they found their way into modern steam.
Yeah the Mason design was a lot better than people gave it credit for, there's a reason the survivor was in service for 90 years before it got sent to a museum.
honestly all i can think about with the whole battery mess with engines, is remembering the fact that every time I wanted to use my cyclops in subnautica i needed to keep an eye on the fliping battery levels, and then drag all 6 of them inside my base when they needed a recharge. honestly it was one of the things i hated in that game
I just kept a closet of batteries in the cyclops and made sure to take the empties back into my base after each run. But Ya, your point stands.
I'm sorry Darkness, but I've already gotta stop you on the Mason Bogie. For what they were designed to do, highly flexible locomotives for lightly laid track, especially in mountainous regions with tight curves, they were an excellent option. They even included some clever engineering features, like a slotted bottom to the smokebox that allowed the exhaust pipe from the power bogie to move side to side as the bogie swiveled. The only real bad things about the Mason Bogies were 1. flexible steam piping was not at its best in the Late 19th Century, so without proper maintenance the power bogie could be prone to steam leaking that reduced their power, and 2. they were a blatant attempt to subvert Robert Fairlie's patent and keep him out of the American market; Fairlie did attempt to sell both single and double-ended versions of his own locomotives in the US and Canada to varying degrees of success, even partnering with the Mason Machine Works. However, Mason continued manufacturing their own modified form of Fairlie-like locomotives after their license to the Fairlie patent expired.
Point is, for their intended purpose, the Mason Bogies were excellent engines and do not deserve to be on this list.
Really, the worst part about a bogie is the pilot wheel design and its swivel. It was noted by the UP (after the buyout of it) that the way the lead wheel was designed subjected it to too much pressure and therefore friction, so the UP put their own design of front truck on them, and they purportedly ran better. In fact, the change in ride quality was so noticeable to even Mason Machine Works that they quickly changed the initial design's inner thrust blocks for the pilot wheels, and that had a similar affect in smoothing out the ride.
I have an entire book on the M.M.W. and it's full of interesting things they did to improve their designs.
(Also, the mason bogie was technically licensed from Fairlie, and was just a "better" single Fairlie)
Also, with the steam piping comment, the piping was improved a few times over the course of the bogie's production period, and it was generally rather good. Mostly, it just had two otherwise rigid pipes which could swivel in order to allow the engine unit to swivel. The steam leaking was supposedly far less of an issue than many may think.
Personally, though, I still love Kitson-Meyers more than bogies, but they're both strange, beautiful machines
@@radioisotopics Thanks very much for the valuable information. I could have sworn there was some rivalry between Fairlie and Mason, the aforementioned story of Mason illegally patent-dodging once the license with Fairlie expired leading to bad blood between the two.
Exactly
Going to greenfield village was my childhood and Torch Lake I’ve seen many times in operation so it makes me love mason bogies
The Mason Bogies really excelled on the Narrow Gauge in mountainous territories with curving and weaving track. The most famous one would probably be from the DSP&P, having a large amount of them. Also, I believe Wabtec's battery locomotives work differently. From what I heard, they recharge using power wasted during braking, more commonly known as regenerative braking.
Even electric cars use regenerative braking. Regenerative breaking extends the range but the batteries would still need to be recharged. (Entropy and all that.)
@@mityace I forgot to mention they don't power themselves, they use the wasted power from the other locomotives.
They use battery locomotives on the London Underground to run maintenance trains without turning on the electric third rails and zapping the workers - that's the kind of use where they really come into their own, as you say. Strange little engines as well and I wish I could share pics here! I agree it's hard to imagine this working over long-distances though.
The plan for these over long-distances is to use them in consists with diesel-electrics to reduce emissions and form a hybrid consist, akin to a Prius but spread over multiple units.
With the battery concept I needed to watch you to the very end, before I hit into the keys. Glad you pointed out the option of bridging a gap without a power line running over the track, I think in Germany is a concept like that already in production. Usually taking the power from the grid, but where the lines aren't electrified, they can go up to 150km at their regular speed of 120km/h on battery, and as soon as they have power over them again, they run on grid and recharge their batteries. Until they manage to close the gaps in the grid, I think that is quite the best solution one can have. The battery concept has one really big flaw overall, no matter which type of battery you use: energy density is limited. If you want to go further on battery, you need more batteries, which weigh a lot, and the more weight you have to haul, the more power you need. And capacity is only one thing. Current is another limiting factor. Drawing 600A at 15kV from a copper wire, yeah, sure, just make the wire thick enough. Drawing that much power from a battery, not so much.
I’ve ridden behind the mason bogie. She’s at greenfield village in Dearborn Michigan. It’s a smooth ride and fun
Gilderfluke's Perfected engine is basically the 1930's version of the Turbo Encabulator
As far as turbo encabulators are concerned, the problem of sourcing conundrium for the fluxmusters was very difficult, and don't get me started on the Milford Trunions which had a nasty tendency to clash with the output connectors, causing many an uncontrolled encabulation reaction, which fed too much power to the, you guessed it, those pesky fluxmusters. One can only dream of what could have been.
Also an example of how literacy of any kind is a skill that should be taken more seriously, than it seems to be these days.
@@retrogamelover2012 Sourpuss.
@@soco13466 Am I? Have you seen how easy it is to sucker people into believing that the themes of a piece of media/literature, are actually the complete opposite of the original intention?
Like thinking something is pro-establishment, when it's really anti-establishment?
@retrogamelover2012 Sense of humor, hint hint. My post wasn't serious. It was a jab at technical explanations. I assume you are not familiar with the turbo encabulator videos. BTW, lack of a sense of humor is an indication of... well, I'd better not say. Sourpuss. You took it WAY too seriously.
The biggest factor against electrification is the grid. The power grid is outdated and already strung out to the max. Maybe just maybe we should build a grid that can handle the added electrical power before we jump off of internal combustion entirely.
Here in the Netherlands we have a battery powered train that is used for maintenance work, they can still drive electricaly when the overhead wires are cut off, they still pull the power to charge them from the overhead wires and is a locomotive with a battery car behind it
I'm a huge fan of Torh Lake, she's one of my favorite steam locomotives, especially as i live so close to it and have ridden on Torch Lake multiple times
I was not ready for Torch Lake and the Masson Bogies to be in a list like this 😭
I remember putting the "Perfected Locomotive" on a cursed train series on my own channel. I truly had no idea it was a joke, I just thought he was on something strong.
The battery electric locomotive discussion is actually interesting because it raises an important question: is it cheaper to fully electrify or just use battery locomotives
the first one, hands down. yes, starting off, battery locomotives don't cost as much as electrifying, but then the costs of replacing the batteries when they wear down and keeping up maintenance on the charging station starts adding up, and meanwhile the Northeast Corridor is over here with a TREMENDOUS initial cost of building the infrastructure, but now the only cost is upkeep of it, and the locomotives run at full power all the time! That's another downside to battery vehicles; as time goes on, the battery wears down, meaning the vehicle can do less and less until it completely dies!
@@Railman1225 you also have to consider that big freight railways like the UP and BNSF have ridiculous amounts of track and full electrification and regular maintenance could be cost prohibitive on such a large scale. I agree with you on this, but class 1 railroads are very hesitant to do things like electrification when you consider how low the immediate profit would be
In Europe, there are trains that run on batteries, BUT they still need the overhead wires (which are oftentimes available for at least parts of the journey)charge them. Second, BUT these are relatively lightweight EMUs for commuter services.
So it does kinda work
Can u imagine what would happen if they came out w/nuclear powered locomotives?
@@juliankremer1900 "Ah yes, let's have a vehicle that travels through major cities powered by a source where if something goes wrong, it could irradiate its surroundings for decades!"
@HistoryintheDark 13:03 You 99% nailed the battery powered vehicles and why there a terrible idea in general. P.S. The 1% that you missed (kinda surprised you did), is the horrific fire hazard lithium ion is if it happens to ignite.
What issue? It's only a toxic fire that burns at 1000+ degrees for days on end and the only way to put it out is to bury it. No problem at all.
You know what's more flammable than Lithium Ion? Petrol :P
@@chrisgurney2467Don't even start that wormhole of an argument that holds no ground whatsoever.
@@DrRacer78 it's pretty basic tho cos if petrol weren't as flammable it would not make the engine work would it?
@@chrisgurney2467 At least a petrol fire is easy enough to put out.
The Mason Bogie itself wasn't a bad locomotive. However, the problem that companies which used them discovered, was that while the Single Fairlie design worked well in the UK, it didn't do so in the US. The problem was not, as you might think, down to the steam line connections. It was down to speed. In the UK, a single fairlie locomotive only would reach about 10mph. In the US, though, they'd often reach three and four times that speed. Companies discovered that the faster the locomotives ran, the more susceptible to hunting oscillation they became. Meaning they were very rough riding locomotives. This rough riding, in turn, meant that the locomotives were very prone to derailing, even on perfectly straight and level track.
Another problem the design had, was the overall lack of braking on the power truck. Due to the way the braking system worked, and how busy things were on that power truck, it meant that the only bogey that could be braked, was the rear truck under the bunker. Because of this, the trains were very difficult to stop. Lastly, their braking system was a rather complicated vacuum brake, which was completely incompatible with the Westinghouse air brake system. This wasn't an issue at first, when the engines started being sold, as most rolling stock wasn't even braked to begin with at the time. However, over time, when the Westinghouse system became standard, it required some serious rebuilds to allow the mason bogies to operate with other rolling stock.
The game Railroads Online actually has one modeled, which you the player can drive. It's accurately modeled down to the finer details, including only having brakes on the rear bogey. Really interesting engine, to say the least, though you can see why railroads hated them. They are prone to derail in game, just like the real ones were.
"The Gilderfluke's design was meant to be a *joke*."
...Well that's *Steampunk* for you!
The Battery 🔋 Road Locomotives by Wabtec to me, seem to be sort of like a SLUG that is packed with batteries and can be conrolled/charged from the connected Locomotives.... the batteries are also charged by dynamic brakes which to me makes sense.
I just hope they don't end up being an expensive non-solution
I definitely agree with this take. I think the reason that it’s not discussed in those terms is simply because “WabTec makes incremental improvement on 70 year old technology that most people are unaware of” doesn’t grab headlines like “Tesla of the rails” does.
Even if that’s the messaging that goes out, it’s important to remember that we’re not the customers, the class 1s are. WabTec is not going to trip over themselves explaining the highly technical aspects of their product to laypeople, when they can simply enjoy the reputation boost and focus on selling those aspects to the railroads.
I'd imagine a triplex or even quadroplex could exist in a fantasy universe where steam could be generated in massive amounts and pressure from a smaller space. Like an atomic reactor or other advanced thermal reaction introduced to a primitive civilization. Like the inexplicable "Steam Ball" from the animated film, Steamboy created by Katsurhiro Otomoto.
I imagine there's fantasy universe that steam locomotive were using super big and efficient on-site steam engine and they powered multiple locomotive at same time thru magic-power-transfer device or some kind
Imagine if we had those kind of technology. Hm...
Like a steampunk story.
I'm imagine there's a fantasy universe where SMUs exist
The airlocks of the Hypertube concept might be useful for trains connecting cities on Mars that are either domed or inside airtight underground enclosures. The Hypertube trains themselves would also be a good fit for that situation - although not inside of long tubes.
As for battery powered trains - "pure" battery powered engines might have some limited specific limited uses like a train yard or mines. A variant of that concept which you mentioned at the end, the Battery-Electric engine would be useful in hauling maintenance trains in tunnels where the power has been cut off (for the maintenance or just a power failure).
But let's be honest
Not ES44AC on battery
Brits have some overhead+battery+diesel locomotives in service. [For that matter, there is some multiple units that work like that].
The multiple unit has a range of about 80km purely on batteries, can kick in the diesels if it needs more range, can recharge battery if it brakes using regenerative braking and of course can run on overheads while recharging the battery. Allowing you to use them to skip over small sections of non-electrified lines. Which previously would require you to use a diesel multiple unit to service that route.
My country is planning to buy similar multiple units to replace two purely diesel locohauled services that run for a big chunk of their length under wires and then run into non-electrified territory. We already have a few battery powered shunters.
Hyperloop on fire? Hmm... Apollo 1...
Had they bothered to put in nitrogen into that capsule's atmosphere, the chances of a fire breakout would have been notably reduced. Would have also helped had they not put so much flammable equipment inside the capsule and the space suits would have been the A5-L (prototypes for the more famous A7-L).
Darkness, I appreciate you shedding light on the issue of lithium mining with electric vehicles. I propose that, if they really want to go green for vehicles, they pretend it's World War 2 and nonrenewable resources are considered 'Strategic'. Now attempt to build an efficient locomotive using as many parts (up to and including fuel and lubricants) that are made with renewable materials instead. Heck, make it a competition to see who could pull it.
Battery locomotives were meant for australian "infinity train" that carries iron ore downward - from mines to ports. Batteries were charged while dynamic braking and the energy was used to pull the empty cars back.
Hybrid sounds reasonable, check out japanese locomotive HD300.
Another problem with battery powered vehicles is that if a battery were shot or damaged or anything happened where a spark would be caused well.... kaboom, and a big, immediate one at that, no chance to see it coming, let alone escape. So no, batteries are not good idea.
But since we're talking about electric trains..... Darkness! It's that time again when I remind you of some awesome Italian trains to look at! Two electric ones you really should cover are the E.428 (An old workhorse) And the ETR 300 "Settebello" (Literally "Seven of Golds", a luxury train, precursor to modern high speed trains).
Anyway, great video as always!
1. Maglev>hyperloob
In all countries, including America
2. I want all Class-1’s to electrify their lines with overhead wires, even if they need government assistance and partial (temporary)nationalization like Conrail did early on. Overhead electrification is what will make North America look smarter for its wealth in the eyes of the rest of the world, both financially, and economically.
Battery hybrid electric locomotives are probably the optimal solution for the future. Mainline electrification is expensive, but those lines have sufficient traffic to support it, but short lines, industrial applications, maintenance facilities and yards &c don’t. That seems to get missed out by a lot of commentators. There is also the potential for power outages caused by extreme weather (like icing on wires or heat causing problems with wire tension) which can on disable centenary. This would make battery electric hybrid locomotives or EMUs really the ideal solution for long haul trains, with pure battery power ideal for shorter runs.
As an aside, I really hate when commentators complain that such and such environmental proposal isn’t a panacea, and act as if it is some kind of great win. Yes, no one technology is going to solve the climate crisis. That is going to take a major change in the way we live as a species. But it’s no reason to oppose efforts to try and make things better, even a little bit! If you in fact support reducing emissions, then you are obligated to at least *try* to implement solutions such as they currently exist, rather than hold out for some panacea that may never come. Otherwise you don’t really support anything other than the status quo.
Oh, crap! You’re gonna talk about those Battery engines! This should be good….
Aka 5 trains that are MAD SCIENCE EXPERIMENTS... Again!
He said in the intro that some aren't quite madscience 😂
Some of those are actually good. Now these, well...
I am simple man. I see train freaks dunk on hyperloop, I click. I am simple man.
There's a mine train in Australia that uses battery locomotives. The mine is at the top of a hill, they load the train up with iron ore, it goes down the hill using regenerative braking until it reaches the port at the bottom where it's unloaded. The train now has enough energy to run empty back up to the mine, without any external powering. Obviously this is a very specific situation that can't be used everywhere, but it is one of the other times where battery locomotives make sense. On the other hand I think battery passenger (city) trains that can power up in seconds at stations, like some trams do, could be a cheaper solution than full electrification, especially where you have networks with double stack freight using the same lines etc.
I wonder how the boiler from the LMS 6399 would fare with a quadplex, possibly being able to make enough steam to power itself without being super big
I guess idd go meh, still only like 5mph uphill(with train)
@@True_NOON give it massive drivers or at least make them a bit bigger
Its a quadruplex so power aint the issue. Might as welk drop a tiny bit into speed.
I would not be surprised if the Class 1 freight railroads used double stacking as an excuse to not electrify their lines. But India finished constructing their electrified double stacking line at least 2 years ago.
Yes. Also, India is constructing dedicated freight corridors (purely for freight trains), which has high rise wires allowing for conventional double stacking. All the locos allocated to this section are retrofitted with longer pantographs which can reach the tall wiring and run at 100+ kph speeds on full loads.
All other electric trains are okay
On the next one. You should talk about the Soviets concrete monorail.
The first “locomotive” (if you want to dignify that thing with the name, “locomotive”) may have been a joke, but the idea of recirculating the exhaust gases (and smoke) is common in many modern diesel (and some gasoline) engines today, mostly to meet emissions criteria.
The Gilderfluke engine didn't happen to appear in the April 1st issue of Railway gazette by some chance, did it? The Ffestiniog Railway have recently built a new 'Talesin' or 'single Fairlie' and, I understand, she's not too popular with the crews for some reason. The original Talesin was the road's 'express' engine, and very fast.
Your mention of battery locomotives make me think of a couple of ideas from Britain.... calm, calm.
The Class 139s are a fleet of two railcars, which have NO ENGINE (at least for propulsion), and rely on FLYWHEELS instead. Okay, they aren't that fast (they're restricted to about 20mph/32kph), but the route they're used on is so short that speed isn't an issue (only 5 minutes end-to-end), and if you were doing a list of the "Cutest Trains In The World"...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_139
The other point to note is that we HAVE Battery locomotives in Britain - on the London Underground. The current fleet were built between 1964 and 1974 (fitted with lead acid batteries) and run at 320V DC when the power (630V DC) is switched off - curiously, they cannot recharge while in use (though a later batch from 1985, now scrapped, could).
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground_battery-electric_locomotives
????? Mason Bogies Weren't a bad Idea they were a fundamental and hyper practical solution to a very Niche problem some short lines had. Plus they were a successful company that got swooped up into Alco and the developments of the Mason Bogies are why the Challengers and Big boys became Viable. Another thing about them was all Mason Bogies were mainly 3ft Narrow gauge locomotives.
Some of Italians E464 have been modified by adding batteries to work in the IC/icn service to sicily, so they can load the train on the ferry by themselves, reducing the time used by the operartion
I would agree with the battery trains. The only good use for them is at industrial sites (like a factory or mine or a grain elevator). I honestly would go for electric trains with the overhead wires. The Milwaukee Road had the western extension in Idaho and Montana for decades. When the electric operations ended in 1974, they still had a handful of boxcab locomotives built in the 1910s still in service 🤷♂️
Ireland ran a set of battery locomotives for years. They ran on something called a Drumm battery. They ran for about 40 miles on a charge - fine for a commuter railcar. They ran in service for about 17 years and were retired when the batteries were worn out.
They charged at the station while stopped.
Charge at station - run - charge at station - run - charge at station - run.
13:03 AMEN! I 100% agree with you on ALL of your points darkness.
I can recall last year how a certain mining company went round to private schools in Perth Western Australia and said they wanted to electrify all of their machinery. I happen to have been sitting at the back of one of these and I go “oh so they’re putting overhead wires on the fortescue that’s cool-“
NO. NO I WAS COMPLETELY AND TERRIBLY WRONG!
Apparently they reckon that by 2025, according to said mining company that they’re going to implement batteries into all the mining equipment, battery technology that, need I remind you HAS NOT BEEN INVENTED YET!! It’s absurd!
EV’s or at least the ones they’re pushing are not going to be the future. If they had any common sense they’d look to the past and see what their ancestors did with developing technology, and know what not to do.
But then again, it seems that once again they refuse to acknowledge the history, and it’s left in the dark…
I may be wrong here, but I would think that battery locomotives would be used to augment existing locomotives rather than outright replace them, at least in heavy haul freight service. I seem to recall an article stating that they would be used on acceleration to provide extra power to get the train up to speed, then shutting off when the train was at speed. That way, the diesel locomotives were under less load, thus using less fuel (a lot of fuel is burned getting that much weight moving, obviously), and reducing overall emissions.
The big use I can see battery locos for is in a consist with (currently) other regular diesels as a place for wasted electricity to go when stopping/slowing a consist. Like dynamic brakes waste a shit ton of electricity because current diesels have no place to send that power except it gets wasted as heat. Eventually I see diesels being replaced with hydrogen as the fuel source of choice in places like the US where the Class 1s refuse to electrify.
The last of the Br Class 313's, a venerable old servant on British Rail, is about to run for the last time. They have run, mostly successfully, for nearly 47 years. Yes, you heard me right, 47 years! A dual-voltage EMU, that has served on the Great Northern lines out of the London (and replaced the APPALING Br class 125 DMU's in the process), the Great Eastern on London-Colchester services, the North London services to Watford and St Albans, and finally the Coastaway services between Southampton and Brighton (but latterly just Brighton - Seaford and Brighton - Newhaven), they are finally going to be withdrawn on th 21st of May, and only one of the units is scheduled to be preserved (but watch this space - further developments on preservation maybe occuring!). A tribute to these really useful (see what I did there?) units would be a perfect video. (And will show you that sometimes, British Rail got it (mostly) right.) (But don't crib from Jago Hazzard - unless you ask him politely!)
Yours,
Bob Willoughby
Yeah I don't think battery locomotes would ever work anyway. What about the power of the brakes you'd have to worry about that?
We need electrified railways.
Where you have the necessary very large traffic volumn to make it cost efficient for both the infrastructure installation and operation.
@@kennethhanks6712 thing is, the efficiency savings will *always* break even at some point, this is just an industry that has continuously chosen 1 cookie now over 3 cookies later since the 1840s
@Gonzo Engineering Believe you are missing the point of economic realities here. If a line or route does not have the traffic or volumn to generate the necessary revenue to pay for a certain operations expenses to run plus what it cost to set up and maintain a type of infrastructure then no matter HOW long you go it will always need to have outside subsidization to continue.
The NE Corridor has the traffic to justify complete electrification based on its ability to generate the needed traffic/volumn to sustain itself. To the other extreme a secondary grain hauling line in Iowa with 2-3 trains per day, no matter how long you give it, would never generate enough to pay to install and maintain a catenary/electrification and operate it--unless there would be an injection of more traffic to generate more income or a massive change in the basic economic conditions that prevailed when the operation was initiated.
BR and LU have used battery locomotives for decades but for one use only to move maintenance trains in tunnels were normal electric locomotives could not be used as the power was off and diesels would have filled the tunnels with toxic fumes. This is the only sensible use, other than in shunting yard (there is a new battery electric bring used in the UK for shunting). The only other use of battery propulsion is on EMUs for movement within yards on non-electrified lines.
lets all agree that the hyperloop is also a death machine becouse most designs are drawn with jet engines, but like, where is all the hot exhaust from said jet engine going?? into the cabin? are the passangers getting air blasted by hurracane force winds at skin melting temperatures?
i think thats called ''hell'' and not ''hyperloop''
Gilderfluuke's Perfected Locomotive is the greatest invention since the Turbo Encabulator!
Looks steampunk.
Funny how the railies consider battery-locomotives, whilst the truck guys think about possibilities to charge battery trucks on the move (including lane holding assists (so basically virtual rails) and two pantographs on the roof)
4:20 I have an issue with this. Yes, this is a freak of nature and should have never been built, But I love his quirkiness and how unconventional he is.
5:21
But the problem of saying he could of made a tank engine or tender engine is:
First: A tank engine can’t hold as much coal and water as a Mason Bogie
And 2nd: A tender engine can’t go well in reverse
So the Mason Bogie is the perfect engine for the rough logging railroads which may not have turntables i think
5:32
But the engine can go in reverse well and can go one tight curves, and the large bunker allows a lot more coal and water
Kinda a jack of both trades, but kinda mastered at both
Battery powered locos actually alreddy existed. The Swedish Ö Series.. (yes. Ö) used batteries. it was basically a normal AC-DC electric loco that have NiFe batteries in the DC section of the drive train. This was used to drive on short routes in harbors and industrial tracks where there was no power. They was also used for line work. There was 48 of them built.
The original Öa and Öb series was just horribly bad. The Öc and Öb was basically two Öb put together converting them from a B loco to a BoBo loco. They was built from 1927 to 1949. The was in service until mid 80s when they was replaced by diesel.
Worth saying is that in recent time some diesels have been rebuilt with old GE 28liter engines, to modern 16liter truck engines. Because they are diesel-electric they have a small accumulator to match the power of the older engines. Effectively a hybrid loco. Those work pretty well.
There is a governor who shall remain nameless, who recently amended the DOT's budget increase, so that all new loco stock purchased has to be battery powered.
These are trains that run on the electrified Northeast Corridor.
Their own network is 80% electrified.
The DOT wanted to make that 100% before this mandate.
So yeah, thank you for speaking out about these menaces.
Agreed, catenary is a proven technology for over a HUNDRED years! Or in an urban setting as in New York City and electrified 3rd rail. I really enjoy the channel, thank you. Keep up the good work! All the Best, Pete.
Battery electric locomotives probably will have a place in yards, just because for all benefits catenarys have, they are simply incompatable with cranes and chutes that load trains from above. wich is probalby 90% of all loading operations that don't happen to be fluid related. Those howerver bring theit own set of dificulties, since a lot of those are combnustables and you arent't really able to bring a catrenary near to those either, because those have a nasty tndecy to throw sparks.
Plus, we have a battery loco that was trialed back in 1917. North Staffordshire #1
Battery powered locomotives are really just the modern equivalent of the fireless steam engine. Can't go far or fast but fits in a role that is already filled by better designs.
A good use of a battery-powered locomotive would be in place of a slug in a mother-slug set. This way, the slug wouldn’t have to steal power from the mother; it’s own batteries would do that. And regenerative braking can recharge the batteries (any excess can be dissipated via dynamic brakes, if the mother has them). The slug could also be lined with solar panels on top for more battery charging fun. It would also be handy in case the mother runs out of diesel fuel; it could at least, propel itself to the nearest siding to get out of the way, or to the diesel service facilities, if it’s in the yard. One could also be paired with an “electric” locomotive (one that picks up power from overhead wire, or a third rail.) in case the main power is lost; the train set could proceed at reduced speed to the nearest station so passengers could disembark.
Well, here are some German numbers. Over 90% of the traffic is being done electrically. However, only around 60% of tracks are electrified. Now for freight, the difference is currently being managed with diesel locomotives and some of the new dual-mode ones. For passengers, it's currently DMUs and rarely diesel locomotives, but there's strong pressure to replace diesels. Of course, tracks could be electrified, and a number of such projects are in various different stages. But if you're looking at a track that just has a few local trains, it seems reasonable to look for alternatives, and so we have a number of areas trying out both hydrogen and battery-powered EMUs. The batteries can usually be charged via overhead wires or third rail (whatever actually exists somewhere in the area) enough for the train to reach the next place it can charge; where that doesn't work, hydrogen is preferred. In any case, long-term, electrification is, as far as I can tell, still preferred.
Now as to lithium, I have two points to make and will preface them by saying I'm not an expert, not even someone who's intently following these developments - just points I've heard others bring up more than once. First, the amount of minable lithium is still fairly large. And second, it seems more environmentally friendly mining methods are actually being developed. So it seems to me this looks better than this video argued.
But anyway, enough people are working on developing better batteries that it seems likely that we'll at some point be able to produce batteries without lithium, the same way we're already able to produce batteries without cobalt (see LFP). How useful that will be for trains is, of course, anyone's guess.
Oh, and for areas where trains make no economic sense - such as typical US suburbs or generically small villages randomly dotted over a large area - electric cars seem to be more than a band-aid. Possibly also city driving, depending on the circumstances. Long-distance travel, sure, use trains, absolutely no argument.
They are thinking of doing a Hyperloop between Calgary Alberta and Edmonton Alberta. And yes, Battery powered locomotives are not a smart idea!
Ya know when it came to the quadroplex, I don’t think there would be any way for it to work because it’s a single boiler design. I have a design of a quadroplex that has two identical boilers with cabs at the back heads. And in between the cabs there’s one of the seven water tanks. The wheel arrangement btw is a 6-10-10-6-6-10-10-6, the six wheels are not powered, only the sets of tens are.
Also it is electrically heated, and it self sustains the battery’s that power it.
That first locomotive reminds me of a joke datasheet about some electronic component called a WOM (write-only memory, so you can save data but not read it out. Details include a maximum temperature lower than the minimum temperature, and a pin you have to connect to hot water
My cat just died, so I'm looking forward to this.
Sorry dude. Hope you're doing OK ❤
@@s.p.d.magentaranger1822 thank bro, it means a lot
So sorry for your loss 😢
@@fanofeverything30465 her name was gattusa
Actually, the hyper loop was in a and iOS game that’s also on and android it’s called Tycoon Empire and you gotta see it but it does not take passengers it takes your materials
The absolutely insane thing about battery vs. overhead electric locomotives is that..... as early as the early 1900s we were building electric locomotives that had so much drawbar force they could routinely break couplers... because using an overhead line you can just deliver so much energy to a locomotive compared to what a battery pack would ever be capable of pumping out.
But the other thing is........ BATTERIES HAVE LIMITED LIFESPANS. Literally ANY rechargeable battery chemistry you can think of has a limited number of "cycles" as it's called. Lithium batteries are no exception to this. A locomotive with batteries WILL need to have its extremely expensive (and full of toxic-to-mine refined materials like cobalt) batteries replaced, versus an overhead-electric locomotive maybe _occasionally_ needing to replace its inverter system or have maintenance performed on its pantographs, which are absurdly cheap by comparison.
In Poland, there's a lot of engines that in the 50s would be diesel-electric, but now use overhead wires.
I never understood all that excitement about hyperloops.
Air resistance is already negligible for basically any train and pulling a vacuum on such a large vessel takes ridiculous amounts of energy, completely outweighing the energy saved due to less air resistance.
Lithium-ion batteries can catch FIRE and as such, these pose the risk of causing fires like WILDFIRES! The Durango & Silverton Narrow gauge railroad caught hell for starting a destructive wildfire when one of their K36 2-8-2 COAL BURNING steam locomotives as a stray cinder from one of them, so Durango & Silverton converted ALL of their K36s to burn oil instead of coal. They also bought a couple of diesels to help them run trains while they convert their K36s from coal burning to oil burning.
Every time i hear about the hyperloop, all i can think of is the bank drivethru...
I really enjoyed watching this, so much so I'm now a subscriber.
Hyperloop is technically historical since the original proposal was decades and decades ago. That's the easy to reach lithium...the hard to reach lithium, of which the U.S. has numerous sources of is far harder to extract and would be more costly...but if they want to make enough lithium - "any other substance" batteries that lithium will have to be mined.
17.35
we dutch are developing those kinds of locomotive for track maintaince and construction work as often with those the overhead wire arent yet installed or are disabled for safety
when they run on normal lines they just work like regular locomotives with batteries incase overhead wire isnt available
and personaly thats realy the only reason why battery locomotives should exist
I would add the 1929 German Rail Zeppelin to the list. The thing was extremely fast and sleek, but it couldn't climb ordinary gradients or go into reverse, and a propeller whirling a few feet from a train platform was not exactly safe. Coupled with a capacity less than that of one ordinary car made it nothing more than a plaything.
2:58 choke the fire indeed! Also this is what an egr does in a car by the way. Yes it is terrible. And yes it does lead to carbon deposits in your throttle body and intake manifold.
15:10, the funniest thing is that I saw proposals back 5-7 years ago, about trucks with overhead lines and pantagraphs. Like, why? Just use electric trains then.
For the electric locomotives, good luck getting American Class ones to do overhead power lines and all that
Soooooo what youre saying about train 5 is that it was an attempt at an aftertreatment system in regards to sending the smoke to the firebox for reinceneration
If you ask me, I see the whole battery-electric locomotive program as a way for railroad companies to try to get around electrifying and improving their network, because “It has such a high operating cost!”
Well at least you won’t have to buy as much diesel fuel for your trains. Sure the oil companies won’t like that, but I hope that isn’t a problem for the railroads. If it is, that would be another whole mess to sort out.
And if anyone tries the old “bit overhead lines are so ugly!!!” bit, you know what else is going to be ugly? Your lungs if you keep breathing in all those gas and diesel fumes!
Battery powered trains would make sense for the UK, I know they already have a lot of trains that use both pantographs and diesel generators such as the Class 800 series to allow them to run off 25kv electric lines where those are available and then switch to the diesel generator when in areas without overhead lines such as in depots or routes that have not yet been upgraded. It would make sense to me to swap the diesel generators for batteries.
Yah, the hybridized method is the best for going full electric, that way they can spread out the cost by first converting the easily accessed sections to wire while letting the locomotive run off battery between them, and over time wire the other areas from easiest to access to hardest to access... even just leave some areas as gaps, like fire prone areas.
I'll agree with the battery locomotive being a bad idea.
Locomotives need stupid amounts of power, and batteries that can deliver this power with sufficient range fill up a whole locomotive body.
Also, not mentioned but availability will also be worse as for a regular diesel or electric locomotive, as charging those batteries takes more than a couple of hours.
The cost of electrification will pay itself back in less than 10 years compared to the running costs of a battery locomotive, and don't say distances are too great in the US, just look to Russia where most of the important lines have overhead wires, even the Transsib which covers a distance of almost 5700 miles between Moscow and Vladivostok.
On the other hand, the idea of having an overhead electric locomotive with some batteries in it as a last mile solution is a good one, no need to change to a diesel to get the train into the harbour or factory siding, also as a switcher with limited use like in a factory the battery locomotive could work, as distance and time used are limited and charging is always nearby.
Also people might argue that a lot of railroads in the us removed their electrification. And to that I say that they did that purely out of desperation. During the mid 20’th century the railroads were struggling because trucks and cars were taking over their business. They needed as much money as they could possibly get so they turned to one of their last hopes for some quick cash which was all the copper wire hanging over their mainlines. If we were to electrify again this would almost certainly never happen.
The biggest reason the class 1 railroads avoid the electrification issue (Aside from endless complaints about double stacking for intermodal freight) is because as you said its incredibly expensive up front and Wall street is perpetuating the importance of short term profits over long term benefits. Battery locos are only good in small short operations not these massove continent spanning rail lines which is why a hybrid diesel battery type would work much better as a sort of stopgap measure while the railroad begins electrifying portions of their lines, mainly the urban lines and maybe the busier main lines instead of doing everything at once
Nice of you to say about electric powered vehicles.
I always hated the idea of battery powerd locomotives. YES everything you said about it is correct, its a AWFUL idea.
Worst part is that my country (despite having electric trains on most of our network) they will introduce battery powerd trains in 2030, for our local lines. Instead of adding the wires above the rails on our other lines. Its mainlly because the country doesnt have the money to add wires above the rails, but im angry cause there is a better solution for it. Whats more worse is that the govirment of Croatia decided to stop building electric trains as a whole once battery powerd trains arrive (We actually build our very own DMUs and EMUs). If those knock - offs will replace the classic EMD diesels we have. I will quit loving my countrys railroad forever.
Btw this is a very well made video and i learned how not to design stupid ideas for trains.
Batteries of electric Locomotives should be the back up not the primary source of power. Save batteries for cases where having overhead lines is not feasible, namely yards and shops.
Also, I could see battery Locomotives being beneficial for heritage railways, especially narrow guage ones, that want an electronic Locomotive for maintenance trains, but want to keep the look of the age of steam.
The reason why vacuum tube trains even were created conceptually was because...as impressive maglevs are, they still run into the problem air resistance. It's a major risk taking and may prove to still be way too ambitious for this current century. Still, that doesn't mean it won't continue to have potential hundreds or even thousands of years into thr future.
Airplanes and tanks were once deemed to be improbable technologies. They literally date all the way back to da Vinci's time. Even if the dude hadn't intentionally sabotaged his own tank design (he hated the idea of his tank design being mass produced for war), it was never going to work out. Heck, the concept of tanks wasn't magically revived with Little Willie and British Mark 1. There was an actual serious proposal back in 1855 that looks truly bizarre. Considering it would have literally required a steam engine and keep in mind ship steam engines were massive at that point in time, it was understandably rejected.
No doubt plenty; including Darkness yourself, are REALLY NOT going to be happy I'm defending vacuum trains at all (especially Hyperloop).
Hard disagree on the Mason locomotives, they were a pretty solid attempt to make a steam locomotive that could take tighter curves without the size of a typical articulated engine and removed most of the flaws of both the base double Fairlie and the rear tank engine. It should be noted as well that in the right hands Masons were a lot more durable than their reputation suggests, Torch Lake was in service with the Hecla and Torch Lake Railroad from 1873 to 1968, and has been in operation with the Henry Ford Museum ever since.
Crazy thing put some battaries in the trains so they can run off the line for a few miles so they can switch lines or something
Next time you do a list of best trains ever, could you include the C&NW R-1 class?
Don't ask me how I came up with this, but what would happen, if we just electrified the rails simmilar to a model train. As long as no one ever steps on the rails wouldn't it allow electrification at a way lower cost?
The last one...
I'm an EV fanatic, and that's the worst idea anyone could come up with.
Modern locomotives are already hybrids, so a battery pack in that could help save a little fuel when trying to get a train moving.
Your idea of including batteries in a standard electric power unit that normally gets its power from power lines makes good sense. But a rechargeable locomotive should be left to going around the Christmas tree in the living room.
I'm also NOT a fan of the Tesla semi for the same reason. I pull into a truck stop and fuel up for the next day's running, and then go to bed. When I wake up, I go. I intend to make 600 to 750 miles when I wake up. While I have rest, and inspection stops along the way, I definitely do NOT have time to top off a large battery pack at a supercharger that's not even near a truck stop. Nicola semis are the better choice because they're offered as fuel cell hybrids. Even then, while I trust myself with using hydrogen, have you seen some of the truck drivers out on the roads?
That could be an explosive thing.
Edison Motors has the right answer for over the road trucks, and railroads can do it too. Diesel electric battery hybrids. As I said, modern locomotives are already half way there.
The accident risks most often associated with a "hyperloop" capsule are really generally in the category experienced every day in commercial flight.
Underground? Well how many subways and train tunnels are there in the world?
My concerns have to do with attempting to maintain a vacuum over the entire length of the "Track".
How much energy will that consume?
Is that amount of energy really less than the losses to friction on a highly aerodynamic train?
What will happen to the train mid route if there is a vacuum leak?
Will it have to slow - or will it just consume more power?
My understanding is that these are in no way a "pneumatic" train,
but a mag-lev inside a vacuum tube to decrease air resistance.
I find myself skeptical of the efficiencies to be gained.
On that #1 spot
USA: Electric locomotives are a new thing
Other railways: Hehe no! That’s already a thing. If you’re so interested in electric locomotives, why aren’t you electrifying your railways?
USA: It’s too much money to put up every overhead wires to electrify the entire Class 1 Railroad only Amtrak and Metra can have those.
Other Railways: Nonsense! You have like lots of money to plan that ahead!
USA: Yes, on battery electric locomotives
Other Railways: I’m done arguing with you.
In Re: Steam leaks on Mason Bogies - does anyone have any evidence that these were worse than the leaks
experienced in every other type of articulated engine?
How would they compare with say, a Beyer-Garratt?
Was it a matter of the limits of the technology when they were in use?
I think the battery locomotives won’t be a success, think about the steep grades like Sand Patch and Cajon, won’t the battery run out before needing to be recharged? And some lithium batteries ( like my phone’s) are faulty.
Here in Europe we use 'battery' electric ships, hybrid ships, and HFC tugs ships and trains. We've also had Battery electric freight locos since the 20's . Also EV are literally everywhere. 25% of the vehicles in my street are electric.
As for lithium, its old tech as far as batteries go. Theres about 15 different types of battery currently in development some of which look like they'll have a battery life in excess of 500yrs.
Waaaaaaaaay beyond the life of any vehicle theyre fitted to.
I dont really except your views on single Fairlies/Mason bogies either. but I think thats just a personal opinion thing. Although I suppose Forneys where more succesfull.
I mean mason bogies did like. Do a pretty decent job in revenue service, and improved a hell of a lot on fairlie's original patent, I wouldn't necessarily call them a bad idea, perhaps just a mediocre design.
The captions went crazy went saying "hyperloop"