Dear Tom: do you believe in 'The Rapture'? 😶🌫️
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 19 апр 2024
- How should we read passages like 1 Thessalonians 4:14-16 which make mention of 'Jesus' Return'? ⛅️
📺 Watch the full video episode on RUclips: Heaven, the Resurrection and the Rapture 🔥🔥
#theafterlife #therapture #askntwrightanything @ntwrightonline #tomwright #ntwright #leftbehind
SOCIAL LINKS:
Twitter: / unbelievablefe
Facebook: / premierunbelievable
Instagram: / premierunbelievable
Tik Tok: / premier.unbelievable
Ask NT Wright Anything Podcast
The show that connects you to NT (Tom) Wright’s thoughts and theology through your questions. Produced by Premier Unbelievable in partnership with SPCK and NTWrightOnline.
About NT (Tom) Wright: Tom Wright is one of the world’s leading New Testament scholars and the author of numerous books including Surprised by Hope, The Day The Revolution Began, Paul: A Biography and most recently Jesus and the Powers. He will be on the Unbelievable show talking about this very soon. Tom Wright is senior research fellow at Wycliffe Hall, University of Oxford. Wright is ordained in the Church of England and, among other roles, served as Bishop of Durham between 2003 - 2010. He is much in demand as a lecturer around the world and the author for the bestselling For Everyone commentary series and the New Testament For Everyone Bible translation.
• Subscribe to the Unbelievable? podcast: pod.link/267142101
• Support us: www.premierunbelievable.com/d...
The rapture is one of the weirdest doctrines out there.
To meet and return immediately... that's the second time I've heard that. So the rapture and the Second Coming occur at the same time.
Most likely. That was the common view until the 19th century.
@@PaulAnthonyGonzalez the Bible is full of symbolism and foreshadowings. You don't have to figure them all out but what fun it is when you do get some insight!
Clouds represent a number of different things: the holiness of God as on Mount Sinai, Christ coming in judgment, protection and guidance as the pillar of cloud that led the Israelites.
One of my favorite symbols is the cherubim embroidered on the Temple curtain. When Jesus cried out, "it is finished!", the veil was split top to bottom and separated the cherubim represented as guarding access to the tree of life in Eden. Now we have full access because Jesus took the sword in his side so that we will not face the angelic sword guarding the tree. Now that's some symbolism!
As for meeting Christ in the air and returning with him I don't think it's gonna feel like an up-and-down experience. Have no idea how that will look but something far beyond what we can imagine.
And then there's all that symbolism in the tabernacle. But that's a another story...
I believe the 2nd coming is after the tribulation. The rapture is before the tribulation.
Finally, I learned something from a YT video about the Bible.
In Mark 13 Jesus himself said he would be coming back in the clouds (compare 2 Thessalonians) and that “heaven and earth will pass away”. So many Biblical references including the term “harpazo” (1 Thessalonians 4:17, Matthew 24:41-42, 1 Corinthians 15:52). Not sure why Tom mocks those who take the Bible for what it says. In a previous post I pointed out just a couple reasons why the physics doesn’t work without a new creation.
When did disagreeing become mocking? There is no excuse for Christians to misrepresent the Brethren with whom they disagree.
@@mtc4him201 watch the video and read NT Wright’s book on a New Interpretation of Paul. Wright seems to have a particular disdain for US Christians who claim to “be saved”. The concept of salvation (reconciliation with a Holy God) is such a key concept in both New and Old Testaments that I find that baffling. This and many other things, especially in his book, make me scratch my head. It’s one thing to have a learned opinion…
@@davidstricklin3267 there are many who feel the Anabaptist and some Reformers threw the baby out with the bath water. There is no need to be hostle towards those with whom you disagree. God knows those that are His. There has been much needless suffering because Christians think they are supposed to separate the sheep from the goats in this age instead of letting God do his work at the proper time. I have ZERO interest in arguing doctrine. Matthew 23:37-40
@@mtc4him201 You have made a vague reference to “Anabaptists and some Reformers” and somehow conflate that with my comments and then seemingly excuse yourself from “doctrinal issues”. Yet my comment was about the several doctrinal issues that NT Wright raises in this video, other videos and and his book on Paul. He doesn’t appear to regard those who take the whole of the Bible with the same kind of grace that you appear to demand from anyone commenting here.
It is a tough slog to take the view that there won’t be some sort of “snatching up in the air” (which implies a different physics from that which we now know) and a and the creation of a “new heaven and new earth” given the many references in both the New Testament and Old Testament. I’m OK with Pre-, Post- and Amillennial interpretations since I understand that the view I take may very well be incorrect. Why doesn’t Wright take a more conciliatory position? I don’t know.
Anyone who repents, confesses “Jesus is Lord” and who lives daily in an effort to know and praise God Almighty is “saved” as far as I can tell. You are correct, only God knows and will judge according to the heart. We can all rejoice in that.
@@mtc4him201 And yet... here you are, arguing doctrine.
Many amillennial believers over the centuries have held that the entire bodily resurrection and change of the living saints (rapture) occurs when Christ returns in glory and the new heavens and new earth are inaugurated.
This is not dissimilar to historical premillennialists who place all judgement and resurrection within the future Christ return/millennial period, an extended 'Day of the Lord'.
In the meantime, is what Paul and the early believers thought of as holy rest, to be out of the body and with the Lord.
I met a girl who put me in a rapture. Wow I believe now
Haha
And so what happens to those who are not God’s children when Jesus returns? What’s Wright’s view of the renewed creation?
Just did a very quick search for his views on the sort of topics you’re hitting on there and there’s loads to dig into when you have the time and inclination. Happy hunting.
There’s a view outlined in the “Left Behind” series that addresses your question. NT Wright seems disdainful of that interpretation in the interview. Wright pieces selected parts of the Bible, especially when it comes to eschatology, that leaves a lot of explaining to do.
@@davidstricklin3267 a troubling attitude in the Church: "my view of the Bible is the biblical view." rather than accusing a brother of not considering the whole of scripture, consider that perhaps there's pieces that you yourself have been missing, or that have been misinterpreted for you.
Their spirits/souls are with Christ, but their bodies will be resurrected. Paul says in the New Testament that immediately after he dies, he will be with Christ. It is the instruction for those he was writing to at the time, and all those who read his words.
How do you know what Paul said was a metaphor and what was not? Maybe he said those strange things because he wanted to keep those poor souls quiet .
Paul is very clear in 1 Thess 4:13ff - 2 Thess. 2. The answer given is not clear and not Scriptural. We must use the Historical, Grammatical, Literal (plain) hermeneutic when interpreting Scripture. Dr. Wright presents an allegorical word-salad that is not Scriptural. Beware. And he is not called out on it!
Tom's explanation in misleading in my opinion: 1Thessalonians chapter 5 is not a continuation of the rapture explanation of chapter 4 because the original Greek text words used are defined to guide the reader to a change in topic and in this case it went from a detailed explanation to to a more general explanation. I am disappointed when people let their opinion drive their conclusions which appears possibly to be happening in Tom's arguement.
Paul is just repeating what Jesus already taught to the disciples on the Mount of Olives - immediately after that time of trouble Jesus will return on the clouds in power and great glory, and He will gather the elect. Paul adds details to this mystery, since revelation of what happens to those still alive at the 2nd Coming hadn’t been shared yet. In 2 Thes 1:6-8 we see Paul saying our relief will come when Jesus returns from Heaven in blazing fire with His mighty angels to execute vengeance on the wicked…another clear repeat of Matthew 24. Yes, Jesus is returning to set all things right and reign on the earth. Yes, there will be a rapture. And yes, the two are intrinsically joined all throughout Scripture….because the rapture isn’t the consummation of our blessed hope; instead, it’s a detail of the greatest hope for all believers for all time - the first resurrection, our new glorified bodies making us into His likeness for the rest of eternity, firsthand witnesses of the restoration of this creation and beloved guests in the New Creation 1,000 years later.
I like how you describe all of that as “clear”.
@alexreid4131 Haha I didn’t say all of it was clear. I said the specific passage of 2 Thes 1:6-8 is clear in its repeating what had already been declared previously by Jesus, which He was expounding on what had already been declared all throughout the Old Testament by the Prophets. The consistent threads throughout Scripture are telling the same story of the 2nd Coming since first prophesied by Enoch - according to Jude (not the book of Enoch).
@@humblewatchman1673 ha ha yeah I knew what you meant but I do think it’s funny when people use words like, “clear”, “clearly”, “obviously” etc with regard to eschatological matters. I was just pulling your leg.
Honestly, my contention is that regardless of whatever eschatological beliefs one does or does not hold to ultimately we will all end up being surprised. Same as how no one “guessed” what the first coming of the messiah would look like and now with Jesus himself interpreting the OT for us we go, “Ahhhh…now I get it”. Whatever happens down the road even the “clearest” amongst us will likely go, “Well…didn’t see that coming!”
As a dear mentor of mine in his older years once told me when I asked him after a lifetime of studying eschatology if his positioned had changed over the years and if he wouldn’t mind sharing with me his key take aways:
“If Christ himself doesn’t know all the details then how proud of us to presume we can. What I’ve learned is that any inquiry as to whether I am an Amillennial, a Premillennial or a Postmillennial is ultimate ‘A’ ‘Pre’’Post’erous question!”
@alexreid4131 That’s awesome! And hilarious - A-Pre-Post-erous question 😂 Jesus said He didn’t know the day nor hour, but He answered the apostles very specifically when asked about the end of the age. Paul reiterated what Jesus said, and Jesus pointed us to Daniel 12. I love His references to Daniel throughout Matthew. For instance, when asked how many times should we forgive, He told the disciples 70x7….Daniel tells us of the 70 weeks prophecy that represents the end of the age….Jesus said “you’ll forgive until the end of the age”.
I think eschatology becomes much easier to understand when we just let the text tell us what it means. It becomes scattered and ambiguous when we decide the text means something other than what’s written - so, when John tells us there will be a thousand years that the righteous reign on earth with Christ, why not just believe him? It’s not the first time this period of time was ever referenced. Isaiah 24: 21-22 tells of a time of imprisonment of both wicked angels and wicked men, and after “many days” they’ll be released to be judged….Rev 20 is just specifying what the “many days” equates too.
If none of the prophecies concerning Jesus’s 1st coming were figurative and allegorical, what precedence is there to now believe the prophecy surrounding His 2nd coming is figurative and allegorical?
@@humblewatchman1673 brother…you’re talking to a 47 year old who grew up in the Open Brethren in North East Scotland in the 70s and 80s. VERY familiar with the Pre-Tribulation Premillennial Dispensational position on eschatology. I still have all the pullout diagrams and pop-up books that were needed to make something so “clear” and “obvious” make the versus make sense. If I have to sit though another “Daniel’s Weeks” Bible Study, Conference and/or Sermon again with my KJV Thompson Chain Reference, JN Darby, Schofield Chain Reference, Vines Expository of NT Words and Strong’s Concordance…well…you get the idea. And I’m sure you are very familiar. I have learned never to argue with a fellow believer unless it’s for the purpose of edification and building up of the body. Which the Bible and Christ has overwhelming more to say about over and against the subjects our fallen and feeble human minds prefer to argue over that tends to cause splits and instigate wars historically. I used to enjoy engaging in the theological “sport” of such debates. But now I see more of what Christ and his Apostles were far more focussed on spreading news about. Context is everything of course as always. God bless ya brother and I’m glad you enjoyed the “joke”. I have a hunch it’s more true that we’d like to think.
NT Wright is so cocksure of everything he explains, it seems he could at least acknowledge his comments come from his own world view. He talks about meeting Caesar or Moses coming down from the mountain as timestamped events that New Testament writers could draw upon. Another view is that such things may be foreshadowing or common view analogies that a God inspired writer might draw upon.
He seems wrapped up in his claims that Western Christians may have wandered off into a form of Gnosticism by taking “new heaven and earth” quite literally. Does he deny that Jesus appeared in a resurrected body that defies the laws of physics as we know it? I don’t think he does but perhaps so. Perhaps this is a foreshadowing of a time when “heaven and earth” will follow the laws of some different kind of physics perhaps perhaps one that doesn’t have time as a dimension (I’m one of those who feel there will be no clocks in heaven and that eternity is a state of being and not just an infinite period of time-kind of like our perception who God is).
From that different viewpoint trusting the Bible’s description of a “new heaven and new earth” literally means that at some point, seemingly well described throughout the Bible, there will be a literal new creation. I’m not sure this is classical Gnosticism.
If you think physics is mostly right then you begin to see that eventually God will have to intervene in some way and that mankind will run out of resources to be the keeper of Earth. Many other scriptural passages support that man is unable to sustain what must be necessary beyond a few thousand or tens of thousands of years. God in His omnipotence must intervene in some heretofore unknown way which is almost certainly beyond anything our limited intelligence can fathom.
Forgive the overuse of perhaps, this comment box makes it very difficult to edit. At least you can say I am merely presenting an alternate view that Wright should consider rather that dogmatically claiming he’s wrong 😊
Certainly this product of limited intelligence deity doesn't 'intervene' outside of doctrines and myths.
Tom’s gotta be reading from his own translation, yeah?
There are no passages in context that actually teach a pretrib rapture. It's an idea brought to each passage.
@@PaulAnthonyGonzalez There are plenty that in context show us Jesus is God and some say it outright, like John 1:1. However, there are none in context that teach or infer a pretrib rapture. The best one I've heard is Rev. 3:10. But you will notice that it was a promise to one church that had suffered much for the Lord (unlike the church in the west who consequently would not be raptured) and he does not say he will come physically and take them out. Also you may notice not too many claim Rev 2:10 for the church. God bless.
@@PaulAnthonyGonzalez Well, Jesus himself said when you see these signs know that the time is near, right? Also, as for it being imminent, Jesus said no one knows the day or hour, but the context of that statement was just after he said his coming would be "after the Tribulation of those days..." But just the same, he does not say how long after, so it's imminent after that time. So I can't agree. Paul said the day of his coming and our gathering together unto him can't happen until the Lawless one is revealed, and the apostasy occurs. So are there any passages in context that actually teach it?
That didn't make sense...
He’s good at not being explicit.
He sounds like a politician
Hilarious
people will "pull" you to their courts to be judged. thats the rapture. anything God gives is a free gift without condemnation. anything people invent about rapture law works is bogus. and God be with-in you, like you have already received the Spirit, do you believe.
I watched this 3 times and it still doesnt make a lick of sense.
He's saying when Jesus returns the living will meet him and join the triumphant return, and 'the air' is just a symbolic image.
@@grantbartley483 A symbolic image is fine... but I don't think he's saying "rapture" reading is correct except that the cloud part is symbolic.
@@PaulAnthonyGonzalez No. some is symbolism and some literal. If it something that happened, then it's literal. If it's something that will happen at the end times, it is likely symbolic. The whole of Revelation is symbolic in the same way.
@@jacquedegatineau9037 The whole rapture reading of American evangelicalism is over-reading into the text, and the 'left behind' stuff is just completely bad hermeneutics.
N.T. Wright, claptrap machine.
He doesn't believe in the rapture then.
Like most Christians.
Not in the Left Behind sort of Dispensationalist perspective no.
@@alexreid4131 he didn't explain the meeting "in the air" part of scripture. Just what meeting meant.
@@stephencooke4973 right because as you rightly said in your initial comment, “He doesn’t believe in the rapture then”. And in terms of the more recent (historically speaking) imaginings of what the rapture is then yes he doesn’t seem to believe that. Not really sure what you’re getting at with your qualifying comment though. Your initial comment was spot on as it was.
He believes that the Christian hope is the Great Resurrection from the dead. The new heaven and new earth will be joined together, and Jesus will take up His rightful throne. He will judge everyone righteously, and make all things right. It's not about us going to God; it's about God coming to dwell with His people...as He has always done.
Eh? There are many passages that support the Lord coming for his people and taking them home to heaven prior to the Day of the LORD (Tribulation). His view seems very confused and contrived. The Thessalonians were not Bible scholars wrestling with Torah Theology, but simple Jesus following Gentiles looking for the coming of Jesus.
Every Christian believes in the rapture because it's in the Bible
We only disagree on the timing of it
Everyone believes it? I used to until I dug deep and realised none of the recognised scholars do and none of the church fathers did. Its Darbyism, one the greatest lies perpetrated by the satan to immobilise the church, from the heretical teaching of the founder of the exclusive brethren, John Darby. It just feeds into pagan apocalyptic ideologies and mindsets. There is only one second coming in scripture, where Christ will return to put all things right once and for all. :)
He misses, dismisses or ignores a lot of scripture. Not a word mentioned about the wrath of God and the promise that believers will not go thru it.
What do you think the wrath of God who is one and is pure love looks like.
@@Ton1956Y Remember that God is fair and just. He will deal with evil via His wrath. Read Revelation chapters 15 and 16 describing His wrath. It will be horrendous, believe me you don't want to be here when it happens.
Nonsense delivered with such passion is still nonsense.
NT Wright is a dude who's made a living by selling religious woo woo to others in a way they think he believes it sincerely
NT Wright can't be more wrong, he's confusing himself
It's one thing to say there's no rapture period (Which is not Biblical)
And to say the rapture will happened at the end of the 7 year tribulation and by the second coming of the Lord Jesus
NT Wright doesn't believe in justification, so I don't think his views on eschatology matter at all.
This is a problem passage for his eschatology. As with the first coming, no one has exactly figured out the second. What matters is that we know Jesus will return.
We should focus on Jesus and his final instructions - love and the Great Commission. NOT eschatology, and especially NOT a physical nation, which figures in our eschatology. That misplaced emphasis overlooks Deuteronomy 1:16,17. It has empowered disproportionate vengeance.
Even our Christian Palestinian brethren, descendants of Jesus' first followers, are being wiped out, and we don't care because we "stand with Is."
He’s better here than he was on what happens to the dead. But the elephant is still in the room : the dead are dead and have to be raised from their sleep in Jesus - they do not get pulled away from Heaven or Paradise!
Not asleep but with Christ
@@jbfree1122 "asleep in Jesus, "fallen asleep with Jesus"
Matthew 13:24-30, 37-43 and 47-50...Matthew 24:3, 13 and 29-30. He is Clear! End of the World "after" tribulation!
John 6:39-40, 44, 54 and 11:24 Clear again Last Day
1 Corinthians 15:51-58 and Revelation 11:15-19 kjv Last Trump
Paul doesn't teach anything differently....He tells us Last Trump!
Look at 1 Thessalonians 3:13 and 4:13-18 - at the end, when the Lord returns. The Lord tells us, after tribulation Matthew 24:29-31 kjv. "after"
1 Corinthians 1:7-8 and 15:24 and 51-58 kjv.
Revelation 18:4 kjv. My People - are you his people? I am!!!!!
John 16:33.....Matthew 24:3 and Endure to the end verse 13. Paul tells us the exact same thing
You will have tribulation....nothing will happen UNTIL the Lord returns!
At the End of the World, Last Day @ the Last Trump!!!
Not my words....this is straight our of scripture! Deny him, he will deny you!
Peace!
Which is not going to happen
As I said to James above.
NT Wright loves his fairy tales.
If you don’t accept the New Testament, why do you bother making fatuous comments?
Oh he likes the Brother's Grimm and Aesop's Fables?
Man certainly has a lot of interests.
Too clever for his own good. If God thought we would need an expert in ancient cultures and languages to understand Scripture, then He wouldn't have sent it. Read what it says, simply.
Your "if....then" makes no sense. Plus, to quote C.S.Lewis, "no-one is ever told what would have happened.
The original audience would not have understand these text the way we do today. There is no such thing as a plain reading of the text. It’s an ancient document with their own cultural references. You couldn’t even read a document from 500 years ago and know what it means without understanding the circumstances of why it was written.
The rapture was invented by John Nelson Darby in 1827
And he had a DeLorean and made Paul invent it in the Bible.
@@kevinmoore3033 Nope, just classic misinterpretation as NT explained.
Not even close. Irenaeus was pre-trib. Darby didn't invent squat.
'Against Heresies’ 5.5.1; 5.25.4; 5.26.1; 5.31.2; 5.32.1; 5.34.1.
No. Irenaeus was pre-Trib.
@@InHocSignoVinces40 In what work does Irenaeus describe his belief in the rapture?
What nonsense NT Wright talks It’s white noise. Means absolutely nothing like too guys talking about Gandalf beard and it importance’s to wizards 🧙♂️
I think that in this case it is just like Mc Arthur said: “NT Wright is NT Wrong”