SBC notorious for this wiping lobes & lifters in no time at all, NOT AN OILING ISSUE, Im 64 and Ive built 100s of V8s and only in the past 20 years have the cam/lifters had an extremely high fail rate. At that first lifter TAP TAP TAP the first week of running you know were its heading immediately . They try blaming it on you !!! Did you use break in oil ? did you break in with inner valve spring removed ? are you running zinc.... BULL-@#$% . We didnt do none of this in our youth and beat the snot out of our engines with no cam failures. Big companies not doing the full range of heating, nitride like in the past making us go to roller assemblies and killing off us dinosaurs.
Outsourced too China, or the like, no or very little quality control, inexperienced people running the machines, people who could care less about quality...
We started building engines, and racing cars in the late 1960's. Cam & lifter problems were unheard of back then, even with stronger springs than specified. Sometime in the mid 1980's we started seeing flat tappet cam/lifter issues so we began using soft valve springs during the break-in period, and that seemed to be the solution. Then in the mid 1990's we experienced the failures due to the absence of zinc in the oil. It took some time, many rebuilds at our expense, and many calls to cam manufacturers before learning that it was an oil issue. Today, we're finding out that some cams aren't ground with a taper, and not all flat tappet lifters are finished with a uniform. convex bottom. However, even when the parts have the correct finish and shapes, we're still seeing problems. We had one build (Pontiac 400) that had a failure with a flat-tappet cam, so we upgraded to hydraulic roller. With less than 1000 miles on that build, a wheel on one of the lifters broke, and ruined the camshaft. That was in May of 2022, and we're still waiting for a replacement cam, however there aren't any cores available for Pontiac engines yet. WTF has happened in this industry?
Thanks Rolly for the reply. This is my concern as we go forward. That the failure rate of "roller" liters are starting to rise especially the hydraulic rollers. I've seen roller lifter "follower wheels" delaminating due to improper metallurgical processes/chemistry and the roller "bearings" supporting the wheel on the axle shaft in the lifter body are "flat spotting" and also failing. They can't take the extra/excessive valve spring loads. The other thing no one seems to talk about with "hydraulic" roller lifters is their weight! All builders talk about is their costs! Hydraulic rollers are 142(+) grams vs 101 grams for a "typical" flat tappet Chrysler hydraulic lifter. Chrysler "Light weight solids" are less than 78 grams. Radical camshaft ramp angles require heavier "thick walled" push rods and this adds up weight wise to increased valve train cyclical loads and valve train harmonics. A lot of people including many Hi Perf. engine builders have forgotten basic physics. "The reciprocating weight is multiplied by the square of engine RPM". They want a "high winding/heavy valve train component" engine?!?! The solution?....much stiffer valve spring "seat and open" pressures that can end up pounding out the valve seats especially in aluminum heads. There is always a "trade off" and for some reason, this is never discussed. Kind regards, Tim Muzak
@@metalmaxmopar9520 I tell our clients about the fact that the valve springs not only close the valve, but deal with the weight of the pushrods, rockers and lifters, holding those parts to the closing ramp of the cam lobes. negative factors include the harmonics in the springs, and often the pushrods. "Lofting" at max open on the lobes is almost impossible to completely prevent. As for lifters, we're going to the .904" (Chrysler) diameter on all the race builds. Most of our clients are bracket racers (drags) and switching from needle bearings to bronze bushings in the lifter wheels has proven to more than double lifter life in that area. This holds true as long as open spring pressures don't exceed about 1000 lbs. Beyond that, it's back to needle bearing type. The premium roller lifter manufacturers state that they're paying close attention to the quality and heat treating from the suppliers of needle bearings and the wheels and axles in their lifters. So, the "pay more money, and get better or longer-lasting" lifters seems to work for the time being. It's good to converse with someone that works in this field. Thanks Tim
I've broken in four flat tappet cams in the past year alone and I've never used extra light springs or super low ratio rockers for break-in. The first thing I do is check for crown on the lifter by putting each one on a stone countertop. It needs to rock around indicating crown or a high spot in the center. Second, get out your verniers and check for taper on each cam lobe. There needs to be .003-.004" taper. After you've gone way out of your way to to make sure that a machine operator knows how to use his gauges and is actually gauging his work, only then can you install the parts into your engine. You're not done yet! Once installed and valvetrain is assembled...mark the lifters with a marker and rotate the engine either by hand or with the starter with the spark plugs out. If lifters are not spinning, you need to stop and re-evaluate the entire situation. You Cannot move forward. People love to say that we shouldn't have to do all this. You're absolutely right! But we have no choice.
Hi and thanks Project for you're input. I do and have done in the past basically every visible "inspection" process you have listed here on the cam lobes and lifters. Especially the aggressive/high spring pressure "solid" flat tappet camshaft lobes. I use a piece of thick flat glass for a flat surface as I don't have access to a "precision ground" granite table stone. Where I would part "inspection" processes with you is in using the "starter" motor to spin a completely assembled engine to check for valve tappet rotation. To me, that promotes "wiping" the lobes and lifter faces of assembly lubrication especially in a high V/S loaded engine. This is a risk that is likely promote "metal to metal" contact. To me, this defeats the whole purpose of assembly lube and I would never attempt to do this rotation "dry" or with "light oil" by hand. It is to risky for me and does not "solve" the real potential problem. EXAMPLE: Here is the "BUT" and it's a major "BUT".....you do all these inspection process and you get the (short term) immediate results you are looking for (like I did). The lifters rotate and everything seems fine even after start up and the engine is running. How do you assess the (not so) long term consequences of "poor" metal chemistry (Mill specs) and poor metals processing (heat treatment/annealing etc)? Under "moderate" operational loads, that destruction only happens over time. The ONLY way this "assessment" can be done is by ( you/me) purchasing a Rockwell surface hardness tester and buying "membership" privileges to the ASTM testing specifications/procedures for carbon based steels. This is where I am and where many of us are at. If the chemical composition of the material these parts (or any other parts) is made up of is inferior in the specified percentages of the "alloying" elements, ie: manganese, chromium, nickel, carbon etc. then all of this "visual" testing is moot!.......useless! AND HERE WE ARE! That is my position. Kind regards, Tim Muzak
@@metalmaxmopar9520 Your process is indeed extremely thorough. In the end, all that we can control is what we can control. What happens at The foundry is the gamble we take unless go the extra step of checking hardness as you mentioned. To clarify my process with cranking the engine over, Since the intake manifold is off, it's super easy relube the cam which goes without saying. Cheers and good luck sir !
@@Projects5309 Thank you.....all I feel I can "control" sometimes is........ "going for a (many?) pitcher's of beer after working at the shop"! ....helps (medicinally)......... to keep my mind "right".....🙃
@@metalmaxmopar9520 yeah its the taper. lost an elgin STOCK ford cam, checked taper in both failed and replacement elgin and taper was shit. and the corps wont stand behind it. no probs with anything melling.
Glad I came across this video, I thought I was going crazy. Two builds, two different manufacturers, same exact thing. No case depth on lifters or camshafts. Followed exact break-in for both. Hydraulic flat tappets
I had the same problem with my 440 build two years ago. The Comp Cam ate 4 lifters, one looked just like the one that you have, concave wore plumb through to hole in the lifter, I found that out at 378 miles when the engine started missing badly and I was 20 miles away from home. tore down and cleaned the engine, ordered and Edelbrock cam/lifter set, got it, opened the box, there is a Comp Cam and Lifters in the box. No way man. Sent it back to Summit, because I tried for 6 freaking weeks to get Comp customer service on the phone the first time. Ordered a Crower, they were the best ever on customer service, Johnson cam saver lifters with the oiling groove down the side. So far, so good. I`m like you, I check everything twice in a rebuild.
I’ve been a mechanic diesel and gas over 30 years. Hot rodding is my passion ,built hundreds of engines on the side for myself and customers. Just watching what you do and your habits I can see you are a great engine builder and have done nothing wrong. It’s offshore metal, such a common problem I won’t do anything anymore unless it’s roller. I had way too many failures not worth the frustration the finger-pointing the stress on the phone with the camshaft manufacture etc. back in the 80s rollers were super exotic nowadays we are getting forced to use them they are a necessity. Sad. I hope everything works out for you.
That Cam Dynamics is close to the original Direct Connection "Street Hemi" grind, 284* dur, 228*@.050", .471/.474" lift, 108*LSA. I ran that cam back in the early '80s with zero trouble. Then in the early '90s I built a 383 for a friend with the newer 280*/230*@.050"/474"/110*LSA cam, I didn't like the newer one as much (sound) but it ran great. I used to reuse cams with new lifters all the time, if the original ones got scrambled or were faulty in some way. Have even added new Rhoads lifters to used cams. Used to do this with complete confidence. Broke in MoPar cams with dual springs with +130# seat pressure with the inner springs intact, never left them out for break in. I always used to use 30w or 10w-30 oil with EOS (sulfur/zinc rich) until MoPar discontinued it and then I bought the same stuff from the Chevy dealer up the street until they discontinued it (way later). Then I used Valvoline Durablend "EOS" from Advance Auto Parts, but then it went away. Now I use Lucas "TB-Zinc" or Rislone ZDDP additives for break in. Once broken in, the amount of ZDDP in regular (cheap) STP (blue bottle) is enough for daily use. Never have wiped a cam, but man I'm scared with all the pros wiping them and all the proven sh*tty parts (no lobe taper/no lifter crown/inferior materials and hardness, etc.). Frustrating as hell!!
Hi Rodney. You know your Mopar's and thanks for your intelligent reply. This C/D cam is almost a clone of the DC "Street Hemi" grind P3690214. Great moderate street grind as long as you had the compression to take advantage of it's design parameters. It is a real sad state that we are in and "we" the little guys are going to have to fix it. I have some ideas that I will be sharing in future videos. I'm telling potential customers now to just start budgeting money for their builds with the roller camshaft costs factored in. I cannot tear into every engine build after the fact to check for camshaft damage. I had never wiped out a cam until the last few builds. Mind you, I had a stash of old NOS parts ( a ton of stock/Hi Po lifters from an early '90s E-Bay deal! ) that I had collected over the years and I always try to by what I considered the best parts available. Years ago, this just was NOT a problem...ever! Thanks for your reply Rodney. Regards, Tim.
All part of idiocracy? but yeah: build anything these days and you gotta be part chemist part metallurgist. China has not arrived at the mastery of tempering the US had in hand before ww2.
@@flinch622 This has been covered in a lot of places before this. This isn't necessarily a "China" problem. There is a serious lack of real machinist to real work on precision parts like these.
@@davidmiller9485 Parts made in the US are sometimes just as bad. As far as I know this is a lack of proper machining on the cam lobes as well on the bottom of the lifters.
@@MrZdvy I don't disagree with your assessment, my issue is lazy people blaming China when it isn't always China (Not that China doesn't do shit work, they can and do. They can also do good work, but like always it costs more).
Same issue here. Mopar with their respective low rocker ratio and comparatively large lifter were never an issue for cam and lifter failure in the past. We just finished "recamming" a 360 that wiped a few lifters within minutes on the dyno, Gibbs BR oil, instant fire up and right to 3000 RPM, reasonable spring pressure. This was one of Comp's HL hydraulic grinds. We are now backing away from any FT cam that has "extreme" in it's nature. If you want that level of power, cough up the roller cam money. It's not worth it for us, that 360 failure removed any profit margin in the engine build. Everything gets break in springs now. (FT cams) It's a time loss, but still much cheaper than the alternative. If we have low ratio rockers, they get used.
The short answer is YUP YOU HAVE TO GO TO A ROLLER CAM. Nobody can make a cam or flat tappet lifters anymore. Especially not Comp Cams. They take zero responsibility for all these engines they are ruining. All the wasted money and time. In this age of having to wait 4 MONTHS for a set of cam bearings for an FE Ford, and I imagine it's bad for any motor except an LS or old style small block Chevy, who wants to do this anymore? This used to be a fun hobby. These cam and lifter companies have taken all the fun and affordability out of it. Comp Cams lifter failure cost me a crankshaft and all the bearings in my FE in November. I'm still waiting for cam bearings. Had to upgrade to a roller cam and of course that means I have to order another set of custom made pushrods. I'm at about $2500 on this re-do since this cam and lifter failure. Thanks Comp Cams!
Even roller lifters are having failures due to what appears to me from 30 years in a mettalurgical laboratory very poor metal, probably high carbon steel vs the older high alloy steel.
For what it is worth, about 8 years ago here in NZ, I was told to my face by the owner of a specialist camshaft machining firm that NO ONE ever carries out any heat treatment of camshafts anymore---and he was supposedly trained in the states----needless to say I have never used him since!
I saw a video of David Vizard explaning how he gets the cams done with an extra hardening process from either/or Howards or comp and harder or toolsteel lifters,,I got lucky with my 350 Holden using a 272 solid Crane cam and lifters .500 lift,,LS1 beehives 95lb seat 285 nose,1.775 instal height,built in 2012 and still running,,probably better metallurgy back then
Back in the mid 80's I had a Camaro drag car. I've had issues with bad cam bearings before on a SBC causing similar wear issues on the lobe and lifters. I don't know if your issue is related to what mine was but a few of my lifters were trashed like yours. My camshaft was wearing on one side of the lobe much more than the other. I'd used shimmed Z28 springs and had previous problems in other SBC engines with soft stock cams and lifters wearing out prematurely but the camshaft in this one was a Crane so I figured the cam wasn't at fault or soft. I replaced the cam bearings in the block, replaced only the bad lifters with new ones and I found the lifter/cam lobe wear problem went away. The next disassembly was a couple of months later to salvage what internal parts I could from the engine (it went), the camshaft had taken a hit from a piece of a rod and it was also broken, but the wear pattern was perfect on the cam and lifters. Saved and reused those lifters on a used cam. Budget racing then. New Cam bearings in the block corrected my issue.
Hi and thanks for the comment. The cam bearings are new and I rechecked these cam bearings when I removed this camshaft from this 440. "B" & "RB" Chrysler big blocks are notorious for a slight "core shift" with the camshaft bores machined into the block from the factory. I do the LA small blocks cam bearing install, but I don't like doing the BB's! This 440 block and all my rebuilds get new cam bearings and the camshaft that I am using, is supplied to my machinist so he can fit "THAT" cam to "THAT" block. If the cam is suspected of being bent or questionable, the cam is mounted in a fixture then measured at each camshaft journal for run out and/or straightness. Also, the cam bearings are installed and measured (with THAT camshaft) "one at a time", this way if there is any binding or tight spots, that individual cam bearing (say bearing #3) can be clearanced instead of guessing which cam bearing it is if you installed all 5 of them at the same time, then measured for clearance and checked with the camshaft. It's the experience gained when working on BB Chrysler's for a long period of time. There was only one time that I had camshaft bearings "pounded out" on a 440 (all 5), and it was never determind as to "why" (it was not excessive V/S loads or lack of oil pressure!). Long story short, the camshaft bearings are fine and this Cam/Dyn camshaft is not bent.
It is a quality of parts problem !!! Yes oil is different today, but we for sure have plenty of oil available to do the job. I remember over 40 years ago getting a USED Crane Fire Ball cam and lifters from a guy at a different shop that couldn't get the engine to run good. Anyway no lifters were kept in order just in a box. Put it in my 68 Chevelle 327 and drove it over 100,000 with out a problem.
I'm 61 yrs old & I will No longer use flat Tappet cams because of the same issues, I got about 1100 miles SBF, lifter's keep coming lose, in the end I had 4 bad lifters & cam lobes. I Now only use Hyd Roller Cams, not one problem since I switched. the problem Might be because of the Chinese Metal cam stock, American company's are using today.
It's better now a days to just use a factory roller engine to start with for an engine build. Many small blocks like the sbc and sbf made in the late 1990's were hydraulic roller from the factory you can go to the local pick-n-pull junkyard and get a whole engine from a 1990's pickup truck or suv for $200 in my area. This is what I did for my sbc engine I used a 1999 vortec 350 and sent the roller cam off to a cam grinding company to put a performance grind on it and just reused the old roller lifters as they were still in good shape.
Had the exact issues with a freshly build Olds 455. First set of lifters had two that wouldn't pump up. Removed the cam and lifters, installed new Comp cam and lifters. Gone. Now has a roller cam, but very expensive on the Olds!
Hey Just came across your video . I’ve been following all these lifter cam issues across the Big 3 manufacturers. In my opinion it’s not oiling issue. One thing I don’t hear is these same type of issues going on with Toyota and Nissan truck engines. Excellent video
isky lifters are still made in the USA and work damn good, but they do charge about double for that. 170+ USD for a set of 16. with cams its hard to tell nowadays whos good. Im a ford guy so I stick with people like Holman moody cams and nos ford cams. Everyone knows they arent the best for power but they do do a nice job for mild street builds. It sucks not being able to venture out anymore for the risk. I am a mechanical engineer and it would be nice to inspect one of these cams in person to get to the bottom of it. Most likely it is a hardening issue, but ive yet to get my hands on one of my own failing, thankfully.
Other RUclipsrs covering this have also discovered newly produced cams have flat lobes instead of properly tapered lobes that induce lifter rotation. It's not only the lack of lifter crown...check everything before you install.
I think that is because now all the "machinists" are just button pushers on a CNC. Back in the day a guy had to watch a dial indicator while he ground the cam.
The 4.0 liter six cylinder Jeep used until into the 2,000s never had roller lifters. Those things are still running around on today's oils and they never recommended zinc additive in the owner's manual. Definitely something else going on! I'm not so sure that all the additives people are Willy Nilly mixing in with oil now is a good thing either. But I don't really know! Got a 273 and 318 sitting here they'll be running this spring. Didn't go with the more aggressive cam profiles I would've liked to, hopefully that helps. Maybe loosing a few potential HP for longevity does the trick.
Lower perf ft cam setups with non aggressive love profiles & low to moderate spring rates/pressure can live on todays low zinc oil & why your low perf ft motors didn’t have cam/lifter issues. It’s when you get into the mild to moderate or higher perf ft cam setups with bit more aggressive lobe design with higher spring rates/pressures that todays oil with greatly reduced zddp/anti wear agent lvls can lead to premature FT cam & lifter failure.
@@scottwheaton9689 Most cam failures I've been reading about or watching videos about all seem to have one thing in common. Inevitably they all say the same thing, they used a metric shit ton of zinc. Assembly lube, break in oil with zinc, a bottle of zinc dumped in. So what I'm seeing looking into this the past couple years is a bunch of car guys, with zero background in oil chemistry of any sort are mixing up concoctions of oil and wrecking cams. I totally get the bad machining, metal might be wrong, and all that. But I'm starting to wonder if some of the experts saying too much zink is bad, are right? Anyway I'd just like a straight answer from an oil engineer, instead of a "car guy" answer.
Zero problems from 1985 till 2007 . 2007 till present numerous problems and customers stop at the Machine Shop that have ordered and installed their own cam and lifters with failures and want an answer. I was a Comp Cam man for years till I made up several failed cams I sold so then I switched brands and it seemed to work for a short time till more failures. When cam and lifter failures are at about 10 percent of what you sell that is huge. Again not all but multiple times. Pitiful
There is a big difference in the quality of the iron ore used in making steel. Just like the different base oils used to make engine oils. With our current technologies we can use the lower quality ores and modify them to mimic the characteristics of a better ore. But just like hydro cracking of oil into lighter fuels it is not as stable as a natural high quality oil which takes a very long time to stabilize into what it is. It is Location,Location Location when it comes to the quality of the ore.
This is why I only go roller. I specifically hunted down factory roller cam blocks for my builds. Unfortunately thats not possible on those older big blocks.
When the oem quit using flat tappet lifters the quality assurance went to the wayside not enough money for aftermarket cams so the stringent quality control was no longer observed. This was a money decisions
I'm starting to believe that the root cause of the problem is simply that the cam grinding machines are still set up for roller cams, hence insufficient taper on the cam lobes. I've watched many videos on this subject, including ones where hardness testing has been done on the components. The one consistant issue is bad machining of both cams and lifters. Many people keep blaming the oil, the hardness, the quality of the material, but in almost every case that I have watched, it is nothing more than speculation. That said, Lake Speed Jr talks about his time at Joe Gibbs Racing, and how many flat tappet cams they lost during break in. Another channel that I follow, who grinds cams, showed how bad the radius was a a box of lifters, too much as opposed to insufficient.
there are two thing I am seeing at are causing issues with flat tappet cams. the first and biggest issue with flat tappet cam failure is modern oils. it is not a lack of lubrication, but an issue with the lack of ZDDP in the oil itself. I don't know what you are using for break in oil. but most people change the oil after the breaking in a new engine and if you are using any of the common off the shelf oils, your cam will go flat from it. modern SL, SM & SN rated oil does not have enough ZDDP in it to support flat tappets. modern SN rated oil only has around 600-800 ppm ZDDP. flat tappet cams require a minimum of 1300 ppm ZDDP after break in. there is literally no off the shelf oil that is compatible with a flat tappet cam commonly available in auto parts stores. I know of only 3 oils that have the proper amount of zddp. the first is AMSoil Z-Rod, it has 1400ppm, Lucas Hot Rod and classic is 2100 ppm and has an included bonus of having anti corrosive agent to prevent rust in engine that sit all winter. Brad Penn Penn Grade 1 has around 1500ppm Zddp. personally, I use Lucas Hotrod and custom in my 70 Camaro SS396. Lucas and Brad Penn Break in oils have over 3600ppm zddp. many companies sell zinc additives to put in regular oil, but that is even worse. most modern oil has an additive package that will break down when more ZDDP additive are dumped in to the oil making it even worse than without the zddp additives. even modern break in oils available at parts stores don't have enough ZDDP. most of those are only in the 1200-1600 ppm range for ZDDP. ZDDP is critical for breaking for the first 30 minutes of engine run time. the second issue that i am seeing is that lifter bores are out of spec. most of these classic engines are on the second or third or more rebuild. and the lifter bores are either worn out, or glazed up and the lifters are not spinning properly. it not the lifter itself that is sticking, but the bore is either way too loose or they are gummed up and in need of a light honing. too loose and it will let the lifter rock back and forth and not spin properly or too tight will not let it spin at all. every factory block I have touched lately has the lifter bores out of spec. that said, i don't think you are far off on your thinking about the metalogical issue with cheap offshore lifters. I am sure they are nowhere near as good as the stuff we got in the 80s. but to be honest, this issue has been around a long time, it was an issue back mid 90's as well. I don't know if it is an issue with metal quality, heat treating, or the machining process being incorrect. but i know of a couple of different solutions that some people are using. 1. is regrinding the lifters with more radius on the bottom to make them spin more and the other is EDM machining a small hole in the bottom of the lifter to provide more oil to the cam/lifter interface. I know Howards Cams offers them for solid lifters, I don't know about hydraulic lifters. anymore, I won't build an engine without a roller cam. a complete retrofit kit with springs, cam, lifters push rods, spring, retainers and keeps and a cam button is just over $1000 for summit or Comp. the same kit in flat tappet is around. $500-600. so, I look at the extra $500 as insurance against a flat came. also, a roller cam will provide better performance any way. so, it is a win/win. the only time will use a flat tappet any more is if it is a full restoration of something rare, like my 70 SS 396 Camaro, or a Z28, LS6, or Boss mustang and the owner is trying to keep it as close to the original as possible. and for those I use the Howards EDM solid lifters.
They are having these issues in production trucks too. It's systemic, the country has forgotten how to do things right, and doing things right may be more difficult or time consuming for production. It's a shame and I hope these industries are collaborating on their issue, I really do. I've had these issues as of late, last 5-6 years and it's frightening.
its not the country thats the problem. its the manufacturers. everything comes from china and they dont care. some years back they bought up the worlds scrap metal and mixed in their cheap bad metal and all metal is down to garbage at this point. about 10-20 years ago when everything started going over seas was the start of this whole problem. hell almost every new part on new cars come from china and its part of why they have so many failures before 100k miles.
i deal with a place called Engine Parts Wearhouse they supply HP parts to jegs and summit they told me all the new lifters have problems and the industry plan is for hydraulic lifters to be obsolete and roller is going to be the new standard, so get ready.
I have 2 cams and 3 sets of lifters for an engine I am building and I am afraid to use them. I am going to install a retro roller kit to be safe. This will really set me back in my build and budget.
It took me 5 time of in and out and re-cam a Chev 383 that was going through lifters and cam then on the 5th time going back in the truck a full roller cam system is in the 383 then problem solved. I spent so much money if I had the first time used the roller cam system I would have been done and using the truck
We are in the "malaise era" for automotive components, especially for anything not current. I started seeing this cam/lifter issue really get bad over 5 years ago, and no, it's not the oil....Heck, in the 1940s and '50s normal oils had even less zinc and other anti-wear additives than current "low emission" oils do. I noticed "CWC" cast on your failed camshaft in the box. Cannon, Wyant, and Cambell foundry supplied the Detroit big three (Plus the independents) with millions of ferrous castings since prior to the 1920's. Most of the aftermarket cam grinders also depended on CWC cores right up to this day. With over 100 years of supplying the industry, the metallurgy should be fine....but, no oems' use cast iron flat tappet cams anymore, and all other applications for ferrous castings have been drastically reduced. So, I guess the lack of having to mass produce high quality castings for huge oems' (and guarantee quality) has lead to this, as the just ship out much smaller volumes to aftermarket cam grinders / vendors who also don't need to warrantee new cars !! They just don't care. Funny enough, my 1927 Hudson super six has "CWC" block and head castings, but a roller cam ! From the factory in 1927 HaHa!
I build import cars and we don't seem to be having any quality issues over on our end of the spectrum and there doesn't seem to be too many quality issues with parts for LS engines or other modern stuff either. It seems that the majority of the issues are coming from parts made for old school pushrod engines. Back in the day when OEM's used flat tappet's the quality had to be guaranteed so it was there but once the oem's stopped and the supply of all the old stuff dried up the quality went down the toilet.
You poor car guys… I’ve been building Japanese motocycle race engines for years 15 years, taught by a guy that was doing it for 30 years and NEVER have I’ve seen this type of problem or heard about it. We don’t ever check the cam or the bucket because we simply don’t need to. It’s always perfect. Wow is all i can say…
It's 2 things: Incorrect lifter face grind and incorrect taper on the cam lobes. Mostly the lifters are all bad. There are no more good flat tappet lifters available to buy anywhere, period. The name on the box is irrelevant. What do I do? Hydraulic roller cam if at all possible. It's not that much more even with the custom push rods. Hughes is good. Next: I hoard NOS flat tappet cams and lifters. I'm never able to buy 16 lifters at once, but I've always managed to make a set after a while. Back in the '80's we used to replace worn, factory small block Chevy cams left and right. The boss had us put in parts store cams and lifters, change the oil and then "Go drive it around. " We'd take it to lunch, go to the store, whatever, 10 miles or so, and that was it. Never had a problem. I just built a slant 6 for a guy. He wanted Comp Cams version of the Hyper-Pak cam. I made him buy NOS lifters. I used lots of moly lube on the cam lobes, Joe Gibbs Driven break in oil, 20 minute normal break in. He's now got 4000 miles on the motor. So far so good. I would have made him put in a roller but none were available.
The manufacturers don't care about these old "obsolete" engines now. They have moved on. All new engines have roller everything to work with low zinc, low additive oils needed for catalytic converter longevity. Manufacturers have shifted production of the parts for older engines offshore to companies that can make parts that look OK but are made from inferior materials. This is the case with everything. Cams, lifters, springs, points, condensers, anything that is old technology that is no longer used in modern automobiles. My suggestion for cams is to team up with a local cam grinder and regind and retreat cams to your specs. Lifters, well that's a problem. You may have to test lifters until you can find a source that supplies consistant high quality products and go with that, if not you will be forced to go roller everything.
I would definitely recheck the lobe taper on the affected lifter lobes Those witness marks(stripes) sure look like insufficient taper to me. Without doing metallurgic testing I can't provide you with much more than that.
Exactly. Not checking for lobe taper and lifter crown and then confirming lifter rotation before installing the intake is like playing Russian roulette.
I am 76 and it took until the 4th cam to get one that worked. This only happened as a result of going to a diamond like coated (DLC) lifter from Comp Cams. I learned about these from a video on You Tube. This is very new. I called Summit Racing and asked them if I could exchange the new lifters with the new replacement cam with the DLC coated lifters. They are only about $15.00 more than a stock set of lifters. This is a plasma coating. It is almost as hard as a diamond and is carbon based so it is also slippery. It seems that when the lifter cannot wear the cam properly breaks in. Comp Cams had independent testing done and no matter how fast or how much spring pressure it did not care. They also abused it on break in on the spintron and again it did not care it just properly broke in. ASK FOR DLC COATED LIFTERS WITH YOUR NEXT FLAT TAPPET CAM. I gratefully thank Summit Racing for their support during this nightmare involving total lack of quality control obviously.
I hear ya buddy. Its a fact that uality control has gone out the window with both cam and lifter manufacturers. just because you check stuff dosent mean its all gunna be good. eems there is a sentiment out there to push us all towards roller. I dont know if it was planned or not but i think the opportunists are taking advantage of the failing Flat tappet market and trying to lend it a hand to come to a soft demise, Down here in Australia, im like you, a one man show engine builder. I am getting each cam and lifter set gone over by a small oldskool cam grinder shop that puts a matching taper on the cam lobe and lifter. It adds a couple of hundred to do but its worth the cost and effort. Say goodbye to the good'ol days buddy.
You are correct it is case hardening. Tempering of the product. There has been a long wait for cams since 2022, big back log. When things like this happen steps get missed and compromises happen. Comp cams isn’t immune.
Everybody should use metal marking fluid... That purple stuff to see what cam company's are selling crap cams. Then every engine builder can avoid them until they see there sales plummet plummet and start making usable parts again. WE AS THE CONSUMER HAVE THE POWER TO SOLVE THIS PROBLEM! let's see those purple telltale results guys!
We share the same thinking Dave! I have no idea why the majority of people have become so "complacent, docile and accepting" of this total and absolute "shit show" happening everywhere! Within the businesses, banking, politics, education, agriculture systems....all running rampant with corruption and incompetence. I label this cultural behaviour as the 5 "C's": 1) Capitulators 2) Conformists 3) Collaborators 4) COWARDS 5) Complainers Maybe we need more of that "passivation" drug invented by the Nazi's called "FLUORIDE" added to our municipal drinking water. Because the governments of the world are so concerned for the welfare of our teeth!
It's not as much as camshaft failure as it is LIFTER failure causing camshaft failure. Modern day cheaply made flat tappet lifters do NOT have the correct hardness anymore. If your going to build a flat tappet build it's in your best interest to find OEM lifters that have been sitting on a shelf for the last 20 yrs or more or, play it safe and go the roller cam route
Big Thx for putting up this Disturbing video.....I never or Heard of anyone around had any FT Cam or Lifter wipe-outs back in the '60's & '70's using pretty stout 150 psi Seat / 375Psi Lobe spring rates Without using any special oil (Break--in oil Unheard of) Just Liberal smear of Moly Disolfide paste on the Lobes...... Maybe you could get your Bad parts RW hardness Tested to Know if bad Metal Heat Treat is contributing to the problems......Some builders have Reported RW hardness Testing dozens of most Populat brand Cam lobes & Lifter faces & Not Finding any out of spec Soft parts.....Assuming Lobe Taper & Tappet face Convex dimensions are correct, & Good oil is used,.....What's the Chances of Good normal FT break-in ??
Good , factual , report. Comp cam execs should be hiding under their desks and dare not show up at SEMA 2023. You will be crucified with information like this and no explanations and refunds.
You are right on everything, first its the quality of the parts they sell, never seen these problems 30 years ago where i would replace lifters and use the same cam with 100k miles and no problems whatsoever, now the garbage they sell lasts 5 minutes and its trash before the engine warms up ,Johnson lifters is the way to go with a hardened camshaft
Anytime parts fail nowadays, I just assume it's chYnesium content is too high. Even though that doesn't seem to be the case here, the Quality of everything seems to be lower than it used to be. Sad.
This is 3/24/24 and I have a year on a Chev stroker 383 with 5 times in and out of the truck with the exact same cam - lifter fails. On the 5th time the engine going back in the truck the 383 got a full roller cam system to stop this crazy problem. Each time the cam & lifter failed I never got the truck out of the driveway only max 10 minuets of running wiped out cam & lifters.
I have built big block and 426 HEMI engines over the years and have used Lunati, CompCams and Mopar Perf. Cams. The only lifters I will use are Mopar Performance Lifters both solid and hydraulic flat tapped. Nock on wood I have never had a cam failure. I rebuilt a HEMI last year and changed from a solid flat tapped to a hydraulic. The old cam and lifters that came out of the engine were in excellent condition. Showed very little wear. The cam was a CompCam with Mopar performance lifters. I have been buying up several sets of the Mopar Performance Lifters for future use.
I see and feel your frustration. I watched your video from start to finish. I have had to deal with this, and had customers and or people I know. The warehouses Will Not Stand behind the parts they sell. So the engine builder is the bag holder. The warehouses should stand behind all the parts. We purchased in good faith that it was quality. I measure every lobe now for taper and all lifters for convex and or radius. Use the best break in lube. I just subscribed to your channel. Take care, Ed.
Once a "Flat Pattern" develops across the lifter face, the lifter will probably "Lock in" to the cam Lobe & No further Rotation possible, & certain Lifter/cam lobe destruction.....On a Normal, Good running engine, is lifter Rotation Continuous or only During low lift/value Seated conditions ??......Should Lifter Rotation be checked under Full valve spring loaded pressure or on the Break-in spring load ??....On this Specific engine issue, what Malfunction Initiated or Started the Failure Cascade events ?? ....Inequate Lubrication/Oil quality Friction additive breakdown Failure, Initial lifter Non-Rotation binding under running spring psi, Or Inequate cam Lobe or lifter Face Hardness issues ?? One single Initial failure Point probably Cascaded & caused the Total worn parts condition.....Should both Cam lobes & Lifter Faces be Rockwell hardness Tested Before assembly & start up ??.....Are the new, non-Coated, cast cam Compatible "Tool Steel" lifters a Better lifter choice ??
I installed a comp cam in my 327 build last year and whiped it out in 20 minutes. I'm scared to buy another one for $350 but I don't know what to do either.
Comp Cam's blanks are soft steel. Seen a few wipe out within low miles! OEMs cams are substantially harder steel. Other aftermarket vendors use cam blanks of hard, long wearing steel.
@@outfitsgarage88 , No problem! Back in the day before they chapter-11'ed and got sold a few times Crane made top tier camshafts. Maybe not the latest and greatest computer generated lobe profiles, but never saw one fail like the Comp units! 👀
Having seen this myself, I noted a new Comp Cam and lifter set showed a cam wear pattern on only one side of the lobe. The lifter has a small radius at new, and the cam should have a small angle across the lobe (from memory about half a thou) which combined causes follower rotation. This can be seen visually when using a small steel rule across the nose of the lobe. Run in is OK thus far, but only time will tell. I am told the new cam's lobes have been "Tufftrided" (Nitrogen surface hardening). I wonder if it is worth doing that to the cam again? This was on a Holden 308 engine here in Australia, so your troubles are not only on Mopars, they are industry common it would appear.
Good video enjoyed the logic, I have used only AMSOIL in any flat tappet engine I used and experimented multiple times my own engines selecting used cams with new lifters and extra spring pressures like 160 on the base and 375 on the nose with idle speed 1st 30 minutes operation and it passed the test multiple times using 10W40 AMO AMSOIL lubricant specific for flat tappet engines.
Yeah but who wants to go through the Amsoil bullshit if you can't buy that stuff at the store it ain't worth having. you got to join the " idiot club " to get hosed with stupid high pricing. Personally I use Valvoline I always have never had a problem I also add Lucas oil stabilizer especially on my race car never any problems. Just trying to buy that bullshit amsoil I feel mad ready to spit nails and kick somebody's ass purple no I wouldn't use that purple trash either Not if it was given to me. But I got a dumb question what would happen if you opened up those lifter bores a bit purposely putting them on a slight angle with the hone in relation to the cam less than .001inch.
Roller seems to be the safest bet these days. I recently built a 350 Chevy for my son in law with a stock cam and lifters using name brand parts. Cam failed with about 30 minutes run time. Did the break in and everything. So he cut his loses and went with a later roller long block and life's good now. It is what it is. I built engines years ago and never broke in one cam. No problems.
Have been watching Nicks Garage for a good while. He has built several 426 Hemi's and 440 engines recently using Bullet Cams and Mellings flat tappet hyd. lifters. The engines have had up to 30 dyno runs and no issues yet with cam failure. What is he doing right? I have built engines back in 70's-80's with flat tappets and like you say never had a problem back then. Now I use hyd. rollers in my Ford engines.
I can tell you right now there's nothing wrong with that engine block, there's no consistency in lifter wear between your two sets of lifters, in the Mellings were all spinning, even the tore up one. If you go to Uncle Tony's channel, he makes a good video about how bad lifters are being made today. Brand new, out-of-the-box, with no taper on the face at all, the edges of the face lower than the center. Right out of the box! I just did a lunati voodoo cam, in a 302 and I got lucky. But there's been an awful lot of problems with lifters everywhere. They must have been built by Google's speech-to-text engine because it sucks as well. I had to edit this five times, because Google keep changing what I said.
This happens to me also. I posted this/these videos and have had many of my comment "replies" edited/eradicated by youtube. Complete bullshit and illegal against the "1st amendment" of the Constitution of the United States of America. And these fat, bloated and ignorant slugs (these "stupid" consumers) that call themselves "citizens" do nothing! Where does this road lead too?
it would be interesting to rock well the cam and lifters to test there hardness or lack of . the Q C of parts sucks these days take piston ring most of the time never had to file them but now with Hastings rings 75 + % time have to file them
I ordered a cam kit from Comp over two months ago and it hasn’t come in. Edelbrock who owns them now tells me the lifters are back ordered. All these manufacturers are have issues producing product, I thinks it’s the billet cores that likely come from china that are the issues. They say made in USA but don’t think their raw material is good leading to these problems or lack of stock.
As the big three convert to electric expect things to get worse. The quality control demanded by OEM keeps the hotrod community in readily available, affordable cam cores. As that mass production goes away so will affordable access to good cam cores. If you have projects planned for the future buy the rough ground cores now and lay them back.
Just an observation, on the lifter pockets you dot marked in yellow marker take notice, if you look on the cylinder block wall above the marked lifter pockets, the block walls have a blue sheen apx 1-2" square (heat splash?) as if heat scored by the oil or what ever slung off by the marked off lifter??? Its hard to see with the videos however, some of these have a larger area of this "blueing" than others. Almost the same bluing like an oil starved rod has on the big end of a rod? Im not saying its oil starvation just curious over the lack of blueing that isnt over the none problem lifters. Take a sample of oil from the bottom of pan and smear on a clear glass and backlight the panel of glass, what is the color of flake IF any? So many questions. Do you think we need to Cryo and Nitride before break in like we used to do Ring and Pinions? I dont know what it is yet, watch it be something stupid simple. 40 years in the automotive and machine field however something looks too familiar yet cant draw it up from this bucket.....
Had a sealed power that wiped out 1 lobe the other 11 were fine. I let it idle during break in. Got a melling used full bottle of Lucas zinc. Ran about 2500 rpm for about 30 minutes. Left the zinc in for 1800 miles. About 1300 miles too long. So far the cam and lifters are doing good. The one lobe on the bad cam wore a lot and the lifter dished like a cereal bowl but was very smooth as if it were made that way. I used stp in the oil on both. Smelling thought my problem on the first one was that I let it idle. Also no zinc added on the first one. I say the problem was me.
I just watched a report on how recycled metals were adding a much higher percentage of garbage metal then they should be. Standards are lax. It's not just lifters though I've been battling this for months with multiple different types of car parts
I have a 318 and a 360 I tore down. While starting to put back together an ol fella let me know about this problem and there still sitting there tore apart till I figure it out
The problem is that Comp Cams is not owned by hotrodders anymore. Comp is owned by Industrial Opportunity Partners. It’s all about money and moving a lot of product. Buy your cams from a small cam grinder like Bullet Cams.
Doing a small block 340 hyd flat tappet camshaft swap here in Ponoka Alberta. I'm praying it willturn out. I got the camshaft plasma nitride in Edmonton, hope it might help.
Hey!!......A fellow Canadian with the ONLY sensible provincial leader in the country! Did a fairly radical 340 "street" engine for a gentleman in your neck of the woods last fall. Hopefully he has it installed in his 70 'Cuda and running this spring. We went full Hughes roller valve train in that 340. Good luck with yours, Regards, Tim
Yeah it's definitely something with the new cams being fucking garbage quality with really aggressive ramp angle's. I have a slant in my pickup that the previous owner ran with the modern synthetic and I've put 13k miles on it with no problems. Another I had was a 283 with an older cam that I actually mixed up all of the used lifters with no problem. Another example is a 440 with a crower mach 7 cam WITH DUAL SPRINGS that sat for 20 years and the lobes ended up partially rusting and It was started like that unknowingly. the lifters ended up grinding the rust off even with the dual springs without damaging it's self and so far has lasted 500 miles. It currently has a couple pit marks on the ramps otherwise looks brand new so I'm reusing it.
I’ve built a few engines now, never had this problem until post-covid when I built up my dads 350 out of his 78 K20 4WD as a surprise gift to him for Christmas last year 2022. That Sbc didn’t last past 15 minutes of the cam break-in before it started making not-so-nice noises. Yanked the valve covers and half the rockers were loose as a goose! Snugged them down more, ran it another 5/6 minutes and the clatter came bk again! Off come the valve covers A SECOND TIME! More loose rockets. Snugged them down AGAIN! Few more minutes if runtime before they loosened yet again. This time I was at the bottom of the threads on the rocker studs and knew I had troubles! Pulled the intake; looked like lithium grease in the lifter valley. Saw several lifters unusually LOWER in their bores. Started pulling lifters and saw the same crap as you; half of them were ground to a slant on their bottoms. UNBELIEVABLE! Luckily I bought the cam kit through Summit who warrantied it w/o an issue. From what I heard through other vids on RUclips of other engine builders is that all the major cam manufacturers in the good ol’ U.S. of A all use lifters from only one or two lifter manufacturers here in the states (was shocked. Thought Comp, lunati, etc all made their own lifters. Apparently they don’t. They get their lifters from one or two US companies. And during covid those sources went dry of their supplies and ran out due to lack of labor during the pandemic. So these cam manufacturers pulled from…you guessed it! CHINA 🇨🇳! They got their lifters from CHI-NA, as Trump says it. And you know those lifters are JUNK! No proper heat-treating from their garage, as you also said. So now the question is; just how many of these junk Chinese lifters are still floating around on the shelves of all these cam companies and big box stores like Jegs and Summit?!?! Enough to make you cringe at the thought of doing a cam swap now that isn’t roller, tell ya that much! It’s all a shame. And too swap cams out of these older engines isn’t too too bad in itself but when the engine gets grayish, metal paste infused oil pumped all through its oil galleries and there’s now a necessary tear-down in order and bearings now need to be replaced that’s a whole different matter and bigger issue!
My guess is the American motor market is a niche market, not widespread anymore so they don't bother making decent steel anymore. 99.9 percent of people drive the new junk computer cars. Roller cams can die just as quick, they just cost more. Best bet if possible is finding old cams and lifters, over 40 years old.
Parts are crap today for even late models. Look at the garbage that Ford put out with their 5.4. If you hear a tick, you better shut down and get it fixed right away. And Chevy with the crappy cylinder deactivation on their V8's coming apart. N.O.S. stuff made decades ago is hard to come by. Flat tappet cams haven't been used by the manufacturers in years now and the parts suppliers figure most are in the junk yard. They don't have to make parts any more so Chinesium crap is all there is, even for the brand names. What do you do if you have a make that doesn't have rollers available for your classic ride? No good solution. Find some parts store that has old stuff in the back room still?
Edelbrock 5487 Cam and lifter set. 8000 miles, no damage. Before you install a modern flat tappet cam and lifters, you need to de-bur and polish the cam lobes to a shine and make sure the lifters are slightly extruded and polished. Then use a real break-in oil. Modern oil with an additive will not work. After break-in, change the oil and only use oil made for flat tappet cams. At 4:20, I can see those lobes have not been polished or deburred, that'll kill the lifters right there.
I see a comp cam that was ground too flat on the lobe ramps and base circle. Normally a cam wears to the side so the lifters keep spinning. Maybe the hardening on the cam was bad and it wore out the taper immediately, but it looks to me like the lifters never did ride to the side of the base circle. I'd measure it. It should be more than the measured crown on the lifter face. I think I'll start measuring my stuff more now too.
I have a ritual i go through for doing flat tappets. never had one go bad. many over 300 over the nose. no nitride on the cam and no special hard bottom lifters. engines out there for years. I ran the Engine Masters Challenge a few times when we had to run flat tappets....650" lift, high ratio rockers and heavy valve train..no problems im in Ontario Canada
Hi Dale. Where in Ontario are you Dale? I'm in Hamilton, send me an email as I like to "chat" with you. Kind regards, Tim Muzak Metalmaxmopar@gmail.com
Proper break-in procedure is explained in the 1957 Chevy shop manual. Most "mechanics" are clueless to the procedure. 40 +years ago we discovered the cause of SBC cam failure, two things in particular are clearly evident as being causal. Idle speed being too low, SBC cam oiling was basically splash oiling, low RPM low oil splash and piss poor cam engineering, narrow lobes being one, (also quality control) they only cared about lasting long enough to fulfill warranty liability. One of the things they did in the 80's was to raise idle, put a switch on steering box, so at full lock it boosted the idle, also boosted idle with a/c on. We sold/installed camshafts frequently on vehicle that sat and idled, oil well pumpers, delivery people, anyone who left vehicles idle for extended periods, jack the idle a bit change oil regularly, no problems.
I know this ain't a Mopar that's I had built butt . i had built a Chevy 383 stroker engine with Comp Cams. Cam and lifters spring package everything I want through this 3 times the same issue Comp Cams every time with Comp Cams did proper Break in with proper oil hi zinc oil additive also went through the same thing you're having with your Mopar engine build. three Comp Cams went through the same issue every time they warranty each one got my money back after the third one I went back to using lunati cam a full package with absolutely no problem and I've been doing motor work and rebuilding for many many years. Never had an issue with lunati cams and spring packages ever since. I wouldn't use Comp Cams if they gave it to me
So how is this possible? Are they not getting it all in the oven or not into a quench fast enough? Is the ovens charts off? Is it someone trying to flame harden? Oh this is something that is going to drive me as a machinist and someone who has extensive h.t. and metallurgy knowledge crazy. If you’re able to get to the bottom and absolute cause please reach out and let us know, I can’t be the only one.
Maybe these companies need an open letter from engine builders in the USA, be it a pro or backyard mechanic. Maybe get that letter published through somebody. Maybe that will wake some companies eyes and they will dig in their production facilities to see if they have issues. Just a simple letter. Also we should know if a product is built and engineered 100 percent in America with zero outside influence, no foreign metals, no foreign hired help, just all American from step A to Z. You can't make trash to get it out the door, if a price needs to be needled up a bit for it to be done right then that's what the market is for that specific product.
@@iq6840 You do realize that the people who are selling you these junk parts are Americans right? The problem is with American business owners who are so incompetent (i.e Frauds) that they feel as if engineering of components isn't top priority. I'm sure you remember the 1980's Japan vs USA trade war because "Made in the USA" product quality was so bad compared to the Japanese stuff that took away sales from American firms. All of it was foreign steel and foreign engineers. Americans sell trash too and Americans buy it because its "Made in the USA". You'll find that nobody cares about nationalism in industrial production. People will buy from anywhere as long as they have HIGH QUALITY, meeting spec.
I subscribed to see how this ends up with the Johnsons. I'm rebuilding a Buick 350 right now for a sporty commuter type of build. I stressed over cams (just hot street cams mind you) for nearly 2 months because of this lifter striping situation. Before I even knew what was going on, this engine has worn through a Comp Cams kit and a Schnider ground TA cam with Crane lifters. The problem has mostly been on the driver's side and could have some correlation to Buick's oiling system and a poor first rebuild. But I'm hoping that another cam and Johnson lifters straight from TA (the only big Buick aftermarket specialist left) and some oiling improvements will stop the TAP TAP TAP. Because a roller cam and lifters is going to be a difference of over $1,100 USD minimum. IF I can even get a cam.
However cm dynamics is a profile for an .842 lifter o it has to work harder to match a .904 lifter profile Street Hemi grind Street Hemi is obsolete but would still have less pressure lifter to cam and may have more area under the curve
Comp Cams DLC lifters. The coating seems to stand up. We had rockwell hardness testing done and found most reputable brands were very soft. After losing 5 engines(doing all the right stuff) we were tearing our hair out. So far the new DLC lifters seem to work. We go for the lightest springs we can for break in and running in oil is important too. R
Thank you for the info. It just bothers me purchasing more product from a company that refuses to deal/resolve the "original" issue of machining, heat treating the FT lifter face. Then they come out with a "coating" for a much higher cost that "resolves" the lifter wear problem. We are all being played for suckers.
how come NHRA Stock class racers are no complaining? few years back all were saying that Hydraulic cams were just as good to go quick as a Roller,and people started buying more hydraulics. now 2020 happened and suddenly all are gone stores? and prices soared now all saying dont buy dont use buy the now very expensive roller. Just a passing thought
There is a simple straight forward answer. NHRA tech inspection for "stock eliminator racing" is ONLY concerned that the cam is a "FLAT TAPPET" design and the "LIFT & DURATION" for a specific engine package is the same spec's that came from the original car/engine manufacturer. Any NHRA "stock eliminator" engine builder spending 20 to 35 thousand (+) dollars on a "competitive cylinder head/short block assembly", would use "billet steel" camshaft cores for their grinds from a cam grinder like "Jones", and or "special camshaft metal treating" procedures from the aftermarket grinders and "special material/tool steel" for their lifters. In today's world, NOBODY who is competitive in NHRA "stock" class racing runs mass produced "off the shelf" components in their engine package, especially the "camshaft".
T o fully diagnose the cam and lifters, you need either a set of Japanese Hardness files (Amazon) or take the cam and lifters to a shop that has a Rockwell Hardness tester. This process does put a dent in the metal so it shoud be performed in an area where there is no wear surface. Cam Cores are usually hardened to 50-55 HRC, lifters should be above 40 and up with 45 and up better to prevent scoring. There are 2 core manufacturers that produce and supply cast iron cores to comp, Isky, Melling, etc. and independent cam grinders and race teams. Not much has changed with the cam cores. Grinding is where the problems can stem from. If the cam lobe has a 0.0015" taper from front to back (as if sitting in the engine), then the lifter needs only 0.001" plus maybe a couple tenths so the lifters rotate. The perfect crown on a lifter is between 0.0015" and 0.002". This will insure the lifters rotate. A crown of 0.003" is too much. To measure, you need a flat surface and a height gauge or a magnetic dial indicator set.Place the lifter on the flat surface ( a granite surface plate would be ideal) and place the dial indicator over the lifter and zero it. Move the lifter from edge to edge and see how many thousandths is read. A can taper can be checked with a micrometer and remember, the taper you read is twice the actual taper as you are reading diameter, hopefully 2 diameters so the smaller is subtracted from the larger and divided by 2. The files are a lot cheaper an very effective. Start with a 50HRC and try filing the camshaft on the small area that is unused and try to file a mark. No mark means it is harder than 50. Then go to a 55HRC. If it marks, the hardness is between 50 and 55 and you are good to go. Never add a bottle of ZDDP to your oil. It can upset the chemistry of the oil and actually aggravate wear. Unless you can analyze the mix, it is a crap shoot. Use a good break in oil for the first 500 miles and cut the filter open and inspect it for particles, use a magnet to see if steel or non-ferrous if any are present. Amsoil and Driven are probally the 2 best companies from which to get a break in oil. I just purchased 2 sets of lifters. The first set was Melling and I only used a machinists straight edge and a flash light and 4 brand new lifters have NO crown. I have since purchased a set of Johnson from Crower and they are all good. The light and straight edge method needs patience so don't be hasty in checking. It is not accurate so a dial indicator that reads in tenths would be much better. This doesn't answer your question about what we should do but checking everything prior to assembly is now mandatory for success. One last thing, grooving your lifter bores with the tool from Comp or other suppliers (same tool) is a guarantee that the lobes get oil and it is reusable versus special lifters with a hole in the bottom. Hope this helps everyone. One last thing. What is your engine worth? It is worth more than a complete oil change and I suggest you get an oil analysis. It is simple to perform just follow the instructions about how and when to get the sample for the vial provided and send it off. You will get a full report of what is possibly mixed in the oil from iron and non-ferrous metals , coolant and fuel dilution. Once analyzed a report will be sent to you and if you get a call, you have serious issues. The report will tell you what the contaminants are, how much, and what steps should be taken or just motor on. Amsoil and Driven offer oil analysis kits.o.
Excellent post Stovebolt56. I am familiar with the "surface hardness files" as I used them when I needed a "quick and crude" hardness indication on a specific materials/component before preparing tests on a Rockwell "C" scale or on the very accurate Vickers hardness testing machine. My background is metallurgical/QC/NDT and I ran the quality/met lab for a company in Canada making "in core" instruments for nuclear reactors. We manufactured "Liquid level probes" and "neutron flux" detectors for the Canadian "Candu's" and the "Westinghouse AP1000" units sold internationally. Many ASTM testing procedures for incoming materials, their "grain" structures and "simulated in service wear" (eg. 24 hr boiling acid baths) of completed components were routine as this industry uses very "exotic" engineering materials in the construction of components. Test for "nuclear" materials & components as in "aviation" are multiples of multiples. Lets put it this way, testing "mistakes" were "frowned" upon and numerous "quality audits" were performed on this company. This is as it should be, as mistakes in these businesses can be catastrophic and cost lives. Enough of my education and work history. I am very familiar with the measuring process and the taper dimensions on the camshaft lobes, but I did not know about the lifter "crown" if it measures in or close to 0.003". (I'll be getting a precision granite surface stone shortly as I have been using a thick piece of glass which is not the best! The rest of the measuring equipment I have.) Where did you find this spec? I also have been researching the zinc blended oils vs zinc additives with/into oils. I understand API specs for later "SL/SM/SN/SP" rated oils have much more "detergent" additives that inhibit the bonding of these "zinc" additives to ferrous metal parts. There is also another concern of "too much zinc" (in PPM's) in these specifically "blended" high zinv oils and in "break in" oils. To much zinc attack's the "grain boundaries" of these ferrous metals and can cause the material to expierence the following condition: "Exfoliation is a special type of intergranular corrosion that occurs on the elongated grain boundaries. The corrosion product that forms has a greater volume than the volume of the parent metal. The increased volume forces the layers apart, and causes the metal to exfoliate or delaminate." In the past, I have witnessed this personally with the micro grain structure analysis of stainless steels. It's a real problem. Another term one could use is "flaking". No one wants a "flaking camshaft lobe(s) or flaking lifter face(s)". This does not happen "quickly", but over time, this could be a serious problem. What is the correct mixture in ppm's? These oil producers have zinc ppm numbers ranging all over the map....certainly, "more" zinc is NOT better! More food for thought! Again, thanks for your intelligent reply. Kind regards, Tim Muzak
Have the bad lifters Rockwell tested for hardness , if there soft you may have to check all lifters for hardness before installing, that would be something else to check
I am building a 4.3 GM right now the customer insisted in comp cams parts and I have had nothing but trouble with everything we got from them. Never again will I buy it install a damn comp camps product. Now I guess I can expect this cam to go flat on the build too.
@@cygnus1965 Install what the customer wants. If they insist on Comp Cams let them know there will be NO warranty! I have had bad luck with Comp Cams and I refuse to use any of their products. I did rebuild another engine for my 1968 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme and I did convert it to a roller cam. The only thing from Comp is the cam button. I'm sure that will be the only thing to fail. I just rebuilt the 305 in my 1987 Chevy P/U. I am using an Edelbrock flat tappet cam and lifters with Driven break in oil. The engine is in and I am hooking everything up now. I am nervous about how it is going to go. I have rebuilt many engines and never had a cam and lifter failure. Take care .
That is such BS. Workmanship isn’t like it used too be. Buyer beware on all the parts. Too much is being farm Ed out to China.. not saying that’s what happened but it’s worth considering given that most companies need that bottom line of profiteering.
Have been building engines for years the camshaft and lifter quality has dropped significantly I have used nos cam and lifters and the difference is huge it's not all the oil like companies try to say most lifters face are not properly machined and lobes have rough edges
SBC notorious for this wiping lobes & lifters in no time at all, NOT AN OILING ISSUE, Im 64 and Ive built 100s of V8s and only in the past 20 years have the cam/lifters had an extremely high fail rate. At that first lifter TAP TAP TAP the first week of running you know were its heading immediately . They try blaming it on you !!! Did you use break in oil ? did you break in with inner valve spring removed ? are you running zinc.... BULL-@#$% . We didnt do none of this in our youth and beat the snot out of our engines with no cam failures. Big companies not doing the full range of heating, nitride like in the past making us go to roller assemblies and killing off us dinosaurs.
Amen brother. Exactly my thoughts and experiences. I guess that we are going to have to find another hobby.
I've never had cam lifter problems from a small block chevy but I can't say I've used cheap lifters either
@@davidkeeton6716 why? If anything an option would be switch to roller cam
Outsourced too China, or the like, no or very little quality control, inexperienced people running the machines, people who could care less about quality...
Because it's the oil.
We started building engines, and racing cars in the late 1960's. Cam & lifter problems were unheard of back then, even with stronger springs than specified. Sometime in the mid 1980's we started seeing flat tappet cam/lifter issues so we began using soft valve springs during the break-in period, and that seemed to be the solution. Then in the mid 1990's we experienced the failures due to the absence of zinc in the oil. It took some time, many rebuilds at our expense, and many calls to cam manufacturers before learning that it was an oil issue. Today, we're finding out that some cams aren't ground with a taper, and not all flat tappet lifters are finished with a uniform. convex bottom. However, even when the parts have the correct finish and shapes, we're still seeing problems. We had one build (Pontiac 400) that had a failure with a flat-tappet cam, so we upgraded to hydraulic roller. With less than 1000 miles on that build, a wheel on one of the lifters broke, and ruined the camshaft. That was in May of 2022, and we're still waiting for a replacement cam, however there aren't any cores available for Pontiac engines yet. WTF has happened in this industry?
Thanks Rolly for the reply. This is my concern as we go forward. That the failure rate of "roller" liters are starting to rise especially the hydraulic rollers. I've seen roller lifter "follower wheels" delaminating due to improper metallurgical processes/chemistry and the roller "bearings" supporting the wheel on the axle shaft in the lifter body are "flat spotting" and also failing. They can't take the extra/excessive valve spring loads. The other thing no one seems to talk about with "hydraulic" roller lifters is their weight! All builders talk about is their costs!
Hydraulic rollers are 142(+) grams vs 101 grams for a "typical" flat tappet Chrysler hydraulic lifter. Chrysler "Light weight solids" are less than 78 grams. Radical camshaft ramp angles require heavier "thick walled" push rods and this adds up weight wise to increased valve train cyclical loads and valve train harmonics. A lot of people including many Hi Perf. engine builders have forgotten basic physics. "The reciprocating weight is multiplied by the square of engine RPM". They want a "high winding/heavy valve train component" engine?!?! The solution?....much stiffer valve spring "seat and open" pressures that can end up pounding out the valve seats especially in aluminum heads. There is always a "trade off" and for some reason, this is never discussed.
Kind regards, Tim Muzak
@@metalmaxmopar9520 I tell our clients about the fact that the valve springs not only close the valve, but deal with the weight of the pushrods, rockers and lifters, holding those parts to the closing ramp of the cam lobes. negative factors include the harmonics in the springs, and often the pushrods. "Lofting" at max open on the lobes is almost impossible to completely prevent. As for lifters, we're going to the .904" (Chrysler) diameter on all the race builds. Most of our clients are bracket racers (drags) and switching from needle bearings to bronze bushings in the lifter wheels has proven to more than double lifter life in that area. This holds true as long as open spring pressures don't exceed about 1000 lbs. Beyond that, it's back to needle bearing type. The premium roller lifter manufacturers state that they're paying close attention to the quality and heat treating from the suppliers of needle bearings and the wheels and axles in their lifters. So, the "pay more money, and get better or longer-lasting" lifters seems to work for the time being. It's good to converse with someone that works in this field. Thanks Tim
China happened.....buy american and ignore chinese crap and comp crap.
When Comp started offering their plasma nitriding I thought you cheap bastards, you want me to pay to finish off your product.
I've broken in four flat tappet cams in the past year alone and I've never used extra light springs or super low ratio rockers for break-in. The first thing I do is check for crown on the lifter by putting each one on a stone countertop. It needs to rock around indicating crown or a high spot in the center.
Second, get out your verniers and check for taper on each cam lobe. There needs to be .003-.004" taper.
After you've gone way out of your way to to make sure that a machine operator knows how to use his gauges and is actually gauging his work, only then can you install the parts into your engine.
You're not done yet!
Once installed and valvetrain is assembled...mark the lifters with a marker and rotate the engine either by hand or with the starter with the spark plugs out.
If lifters are not spinning, you need to stop and re-evaluate the entire situation. You Cannot move forward.
People love to say that we shouldn't have to do all this.
You're absolutely right! But we have no choice.
Hi and thanks Project for you're input. I do and have done in the past basically every visible "inspection" process you have listed here on the cam lobes and lifters. Especially the aggressive/high spring pressure "solid" flat tappet camshaft lobes. I use a piece of thick flat glass for a flat surface as I don't have access to a "precision ground" granite table stone. Where I would part "inspection" processes with you is in using the "starter" motor to spin a completely assembled engine to check for valve tappet rotation. To me, that promotes "wiping" the lobes and lifter faces of assembly lubrication especially in a high V/S loaded engine. This is a risk that is likely promote "metal to metal" contact. To me, this defeats the whole purpose of assembly lube and I would never attempt to do this rotation "dry" or with "light oil" by hand. It is to risky for me and does not "solve" the real potential problem.
EXAMPLE: Here is the "BUT" and it's a major "BUT".....you do all these inspection process and you get the (short term) immediate results you are looking for (like I did). The lifters rotate and everything seems fine even after start up and the engine is running. How do you assess the (not so) long term consequences of "poor" metal chemistry (Mill specs) and poor metals processing (heat treatment/annealing etc)? Under "moderate" operational loads, that destruction only happens over time.
The ONLY way this "assessment" can be done is by ( you/me) purchasing a Rockwell surface hardness tester and buying "membership" privileges to the ASTM testing specifications/procedures for carbon based steels.
This is where I am and where many of us are at. If the chemical composition of the material these parts (or any other parts) is made up of is inferior in the specified percentages of the "alloying" elements, ie: manganese, chromium, nickel, carbon etc. then all of this "visual" testing is moot!.......useless! AND HERE WE ARE! That is my position. Kind regards, Tim Muzak
@@metalmaxmopar9520
Your process is indeed extremely thorough.
In the end, all that we can control is what we can control. What happens at The foundry is the gamble we take unless go the extra step of checking hardness as you mentioned.
To clarify my process with cranking the engine over,
Since the intake manifold is off, it's super easy relube the cam which goes without saying.
Cheers and good luck sir !
@@Projects5309 Thank you.....all I feel I can "control" sometimes is........ "going for a (many?) pitcher's of beer after working at the shop"! ....helps (medicinally)......... to keep my mind "right".....🙃
@@metalmaxmopar9520 yeah its the taper. lost an elgin STOCK ford cam, checked taper in both failed and replacement elgin and taper was shit. and the corps wont stand behind it. no probs with anything melling.
Elgin lifters are crap i would not use in lawnmower.@@FloydODB
Glad I came across this video, I thought I was going crazy. Two builds, two different manufacturers, same exact thing. No case depth on lifters or camshafts. Followed exact break-in for both. Hydraulic flat tappets
In the old days we hand sanded the bores, swapped lifters, etc. The old junk ran great. What the heck happened. Come on man!
I had the same problem with my 440 build two years ago. The Comp Cam ate 4 lifters, one looked just like the one that you have, concave wore plumb through to hole in the lifter, I found that out at 378 miles when the engine started missing badly and I was 20 miles away from home. tore down and cleaned the engine, ordered and Edelbrock cam/lifter set, got it, opened the box, there is a Comp Cam and Lifters in the box. No way man. Sent it back to Summit, because I tried for 6 freaking weeks to get Comp customer service on the phone the first time. Ordered a Crower, they were the best ever on customer service, Johnson cam saver lifters with the oiling groove down the side. So far, so good. I`m like you, I check everything twice in a rebuild.
I’ve been a mechanic diesel and gas over 30 years. Hot rodding is my passion ,built hundreds of engines on the side for myself and customers. Just watching what you do and your habits I can see you are a great engine builder and have done nothing wrong. It’s offshore metal, such a common problem I won’t do anything anymore unless it’s roller. I had way too many failures not worth the frustration the finger-pointing the stress on the phone with the camshaft manufacture etc. back in the 80s rollers were super exotic nowadays we are getting forced to use them they are a necessity. Sad. I hope everything works out for you.
Still be cautious of lifters. Get made in the US products.
That Cam Dynamics is close to the original Direct Connection "Street Hemi" grind, 284* dur, 228*@.050", .471/.474" lift, 108*LSA. I ran that cam back in the early '80s with zero trouble. Then in the early '90s I built a 383 for a friend with the newer 280*/230*@.050"/474"/110*LSA cam, I didn't like the newer one as much (sound) but it ran great. I used to reuse cams with new lifters all the time, if the original ones got scrambled or were faulty in some way. Have even added new Rhoads lifters to used cams. Used to do this with complete confidence. Broke in MoPar cams with dual springs with +130# seat pressure with the inner springs intact, never left them out for break in. I always used to use 30w or 10w-30 oil with EOS (sulfur/zinc rich) until MoPar discontinued it and then I bought the same stuff from the Chevy dealer up the street until they discontinued it (way later). Then I used Valvoline Durablend "EOS" from Advance Auto Parts, but then it went away. Now I use Lucas "TB-Zinc" or Rislone ZDDP additives for break in. Once broken in, the amount of ZDDP in regular (cheap) STP (blue bottle) is enough for daily use. Never have wiped a cam, but man I'm scared with all the pros wiping them and all the proven sh*tty parts (no lobe taper/no lifter crown/inferior materials and hardness, etc.). Frustrating as hell!!
Hi Rodney. You know your Mopar's and thanks for your intelligent reply. This C/D cam is almost a clone of the DC "Street Hemi" grind P3690214. Great moderate street grind as long as you had the compression to take advantage of it's design parameters. It is a real sad state that we are in and "we" the little guys are going to have to fix it. I have some ideas that I will be sharing in future videos. I'm telling potential customers now to just start budgeting money for their builds with the roller camshaft costs factored in. I cannot tear into every engine build after the fact to check for camshaft damage. I had never wiped out a cam until the last few builds. Mind you, I had a stash of old NOS parts ( a ton of stock/Hi Po lifters from an early '90s E-Bay deal! ) that I had collected over the years and I always try to by what I considered the best parts available. Years ago, this just was NOT a problem...ever! Thanks for your reply Rodney. Regards, Tim.
All part of idiocracy? but yeah: build anything these days and you gotta be part chemist part metallurgist. China has not arrived at the mastery of tempering the US had in hand before ww2.
@@flinch622 This has been covered in a lot of places before this. This isn't necessarily a "China" problem. There is a serious lack of real machinist to real work on precision parts like these.
@@davidmiller9485 Parts made in the US are sometimes just as bad. As far as I know this is a lack of proper machining on the cam lobes as well on the bottom of the lifters.
@@MrZdvy I don't disagree with your assessment, my issue is lazy people blaming China when it isn't always China (Not that China doesn't do shit work, they can and do. They can also do good work, but like always it costs more).
Same issue here. Mopar with their respective low rocker ratio and comparatively large lifter were never an issue for cam and lifter failure in the past. We just finished "recamming" a 360 that wiped a few lifters within minutes on the dyno, Gibbs BR oil, instant fire up and right to 3000 RPM, reasonable spring pressure. This was one of Comp's HL hydraulic grinds.
We are now backing away from any FT cam that has "extreme" in it's nature. If you want that level of power, cough up the roller cam money. It's not worth it for us, that 360 failure removed any profit margin in the engine build.
Everything gets break in springs now. (FT cams) It's a time loss, but still much cheaper than the alternative. If we have low ratio rockers, they get used.
Comp HL cams are pretty radical Howards .904 less so Then Engle wear better then DC
The short answer is YUP YOU HAVE TO GO TO A ROLLER CAM. Nobody can make a cam or flat tappet lifters anymore. Especially not Comp Cams. They take zero responsibility for all these engines they are ruining. All the wasted money and time. In this age of having to wait 4 MONTHS for a set of cam bearings for an FE Ford, and I imagine it's bad for any motor except an LS or old style small block Chevy, who wants to do this anymore? This used to be a fun hobby. These cam and lifter companies have taken all the fun and affordability out of it. Comp Cams lifter failure cost me a crankshaft and all the bearings in my FE in November. I'm still waiting for cam bearings. Had to upgrade to a roller cam and of course that means I have to order another set of custom made pushrods. I'm at about $2500 on this re-do since this cam and lifter failure. Thanks Comp Cams!
Even roller lifters are having failures due to what appears to me from 30 years in a mettalurgical laboratory very poor metal, probably high carbon steel vs the older high alloy steel.
For what it is worth, about 8 years ago here in NZ, I was told to my face by the owner of a specialist camshaft machining firm that NO ONE ever carries out any heat treatment of camshafts anymore---and he was supposedly trained in the states----needless to say I have never used him since!
I saw a video of David Vizard explaning how he gets the cams done with an extra hardening process from either/or Howards or comp and harder or toolsteel lifters,,I got lucky with my 350 Holden using a 272 solid Crane cam and lifters .500 lift,,LS1 beehives 95lb seat 285 nose,1.775 instal height,built in 2012 and still running,,probably better metallurgy back then
Back in the mid 80's I had a Camaro drag car. I've had issues with bad cam bearings before on a SBC causing similar wear issues on the lobe and lifters. I don't know if your issue is related to what mine was but a few of my lifters were trashed like yours. My camshaft was wearing on one side of the lobe much more than the other. I'd used shimmed Z28 springs and had previous problems in other SBC engines with soft stock cams and lifters wearing out prematurely but the camshaft in this one was a Crane so I figured the cam wasn't at fault or soft. I replaced the cam bearings in the block, replaced only the bad lifters with new ones and I found the lifter/cam lobe wear problem went away. The next disassembly was a couple of months later to salvage what internal parts I could from the engine (it went), the camshaft had taken a hit from a piece of a rod and it was also broken, but the wear pattern was perfect on the cam and lifters. Saved and reused those lifters on a used cam. Budget racing then. New Cam bearings in the block corrected my issue.
Hi and thanks for the comment. The cam bearings are new and I rechecked these cam bearings when I removed this camshaft from this 440. "B" & "RB" Chrysler big blocks are notorious for a slight "core shift" with the camshaft bores machined into the block from the factory. I do the LA small blocks cam bearing install, but I don't like doing the BB's! This 440 block and all my rebuilds get new cam bearings and the camshaft that I am using, is supplied to my machinist so he can fit "THAT" cam to "THAT" block. If the cam is suspected of being bent or questionable, the cam is mounted in a fixture then measured at each camshaft journal for run out and/or straightness. Also, the cam bearings are installed and measured (with THAT camshaft) "one at a time", this way if there is any binding or tight spots, that individual cam bearing (say bearing #3) can be clearanced instead of guessing which cam bearing it is if you installed all 5 of them at the same time, then measured for clearance and checked with the camshaft. It's the experience gained when working on BB Chrysler's for a long period of time. There was only one time that I had camshaft bearings "pounded out" on a 440 (all 5), and it was never determind as to "why" (it was not excessive V/S loads or lack of oil pressure!). Long story short, the camshaft bearings are fine and this Cam/Dyn camshaft is not bent.
@@metalmaxmopar9520 I hope these cam makers are not buying their steel from China.
@@KentuckyFriedFixes sadly from China, India and Bolivia
It is a quality of parts problem !!! Yes oil is different today, but we for sure have plenty of oil available to do the job. I remember over 40 years ago getting a USED Crane Fire Ball cam and lifters from a guy at a different shop that couldn't get the engine to run good. Anyway no lifters were kept in order just in a box. Put it in my 68 Chevelle 327 and drove it over 100,000 with out a problem.
Did basically the same thing with a duntov 30 30. Was in several engines. Lifters all mixed up. Never went bad.
I'm 61 yrs old & I will No longer use flat Tappet cams because of the same issues, I got about 1100 miles SBF, lifter's keep coming lose, in the end I had 4 bad lifters & cam lobes. I Now only use Hyd Roller Cams, not one problem since I switched. the problem Might be because of the Chinese Metal cam stock, American company's are using today.
It's better now a days to just use a factory roller engine to start with for an engine build. Many small blocks like the sbc and sbf made in the late 1990's were hydraulic roller from the factory you can go to the local pick-n-pull junkyard and get a whole engine from a 1990's pickup truck or suv for $200 in my area. This is what I did for my sbc engine I used a 1999 vortec 350 and sent the roller cam off to a cam grinding company to put a performance grind on it and just reused the old roller lifters as they were still in good shape.
Had the exact issues with a freshly build Olds 455. First set of lifters had two that wouldn't pump up. Removed the cam and lifters, installed new Comp cam and lifters. Gone. Now has a roller cam, but very expensive on the Olds!
Hey Just came across your video . I’ve been following all these lifter cam issues across the Big 3 manufacturers. In my opinion it’s not oiling issue. One thing I don’t hear is these same type of issues going on with Toyota and Nissan truck engines. Excellent video
It appears somewhere along the line, someone chose to cut corners. Heat treating not sufficient. Carbon content too low.
isky lifters are still made in the USA and work damn good, but they do charge about double for that. 170+ USD
for a set of 16. with cams its hard to tell nowadays whos good. Im a ford guy so I stick with people like Holman moody cams and nos ford cams. Everyone knows they arent the best for power but they do do a nice job for mild street builds. It sucks not being able to venture out anymore for the risk. I am a mechanical engineer and it would be nice to inspect one of these cams in person to get to the bottom of it. Most likely it is a hardening issue, but ive yet to get my hands on one of my own failing, thankfully.
Other RUclipsrs covering this have also discovered newly produced cams have flat lobes instead of properly tapered lobes that induce lifter rotation. It's not only the lack of lifter crown...check everything before you install.
I think that is because now all the "machinists" are just button pushers on a CNC. Back in the day a guy had to watch a dial indicator while he ground the cam.
The 4.0 liter six cylinder Jeep used until into the 2,000s never had roller lifters. Those things are still running around on today's oils and they never recommended zinc additive in the owner's manual. Definitely something else going on! I'm not so sure that all the additives people are Willy Nilly mixing in with oil now is a good thing either. But I don't really know! Got a 273 and 318 sitting here they'll be running this spring. Didn't go with the more aggressive cam profiles I would've liked to, hopefully that helps. Maybe loosing a few potential HP for longevity does the trick.
Lower perf ft cam setups with non aggressive love profiles & low to moderate spring rates/pressure can live on todays low zinc oil & why your low perf ft motors didn’t have cam/lifter issues.
It’s when you get into the mild to moderate or higher perf ft cam setups with bit more aggressive lobe design with higher spring rates/pressures that todays oil with greatly reduced zddp/anti wear agent lvls can lead to premature FT cam & lifter failure.
@@scottwheaton9689 Most cam failures I've been reading about or watching videos about all seem to have one thing in common. Inevitably they all say the same thing, they used a metric shit ton of zinc. Assembly lube, break in oil with zinc, a bottle of zinc dumped in.
So what I'm seeing looking into this the past couple years is a bunch of car guys, with zero background in oil chemistry of any sort are mixing up concoctions of oil and wrecking cams.
I totally get the bad machining, metal might be wrong, and all that. But I'm starting to wonder if some of the experts saying too much zink is bad, are right?
Anyway I'd just like a straight answer from an oil engineer, instead of a "car guy" answer.
Zero problems from 1985 till 2007 . 2007 till present numerous problems and customers stop at the Machine Shop that have ordered and installed their own cam and lifters with failures and want an answer. I was a Comp Cam man for years till I made up several failed cams I sold so then I switched brands and it seemed to work for a short time till more failures. When cam and lifter failures are at about 10 percent of what you sell that is huge. Again not all but multiple times. Pitiful
There is a big difference in the quality of the iron ore used in making steel. Just like the different base oils used to make engine oils. With our current technologies we can use the lower quality ores and modify them to mimic the characteristics of a better ore. But just like hydro cracking of oil into lighter fuels it is not as stable as a natural high quality oil which takes a very long time to stabilize into what it is. It is Location,Location Location when it comes to the quality of the ore.
This is why I only go roller. I specifically hunted down factory roller cam blocks for my builds. Unfortunately thats not possible on those older big blocks.
When the oem quit using flat tappet lifters the quality assurance went to the wayside not enough money for aftermarket cams so the stringent quality control was no longer observed. This was a money decisions
I'm starting to believe that the root cause of the problem is simply that the cam grinding machines are still set up for roller cams, hence insufficient taper on the cam lobes. I've watched many videos on this subject, including ones where hardness testing has been done on the components. The one consistant issue is bad machining of both cams and lifters. Many people keep blaming the oil, the hardness, the quality of the material, but in almost every case that I have watched, it is nothing more than speculation. That said, Lake Speed Jr talks about his time at Joe Gibbs Racing, and how many flat tappet cams they lost during break in. Another channel that I follow, who grinds cams, showed how bad the radius was a a box of lifters, too much as opposed to insufficient.
there are two thing I am seeing at are causing issues with flat tappet cams.
the first and biggest issue with flat tappet cam failure is modern oils. it is not a lack of lubrication, but an issue with the lack of ZDDP in the oil itself. I don't know what you are using for break in oil. but most people change the oil after the breaking in a new engine and if you are using any of the common off the shelf oils, your cam will go flat from it. modern SL, SM & SN rated oil does not have enough ZDDP in it to support flat tappets. modern SN rated oil only has around 600-800 ppm ZDDP. flat tappet cams require a minimum of 1300 ppm ZDDP after break in. there is literally no off the shelf oil that is compatible with a flat tappet cam commonly available in auto parts stores. I know of only 3 oils that have the proper amount of zddp. the first is AMSoil Z-Rod, it has 1400ppm, Lucas Hot Rod and classic is 2100 ppm and has an included bonus of having anti corrosive agent to prevent rust in engine that sit all winter. Brad Penn Penn Grade 1 has around 1500ppm Zddp. personally, I use Lucas Hotrod and custom in my 70 Camaro SS396. Lucas and Brad Penn Break in oils have over 3600ppm zddp. many companies sell zinc additives to put in regular oil, but that is even worse. most modern oil has an additive package that will break down when more ZDDP additive are dumped in to the oil making it even worse than without the zddp additives. even modern break in oils available at parts stores don't have enough ZDDP. most of those are only in the 1200-1600 ppm range for ZDDP. ZDDP is critical for breaking for the first 30 minutes of engine run time.
the second issue that i am seeing is that lifter bores are out of spec. most of these classic engines are on the second or third or more rebuild. and the lifter bores are either worn out, or glazed up and the lifters are not spinning properly. it not the lifter itself that is sticking, but the bore is either way too loose or they are gummed up and in need of a light honing. too loose and it will let the lifter rock back and forth and not spin properly or too tight will not let it spin at all. every factory block I have touched lately has the lifter bores out of spec.
that said, i don't think you are far off on your thinking about the metalogical issue with cheap offshore lifters. I am sure they are nowhere near as good as the stuff we got in the 80s. but to be honest, this issue has been around a long time, it was an issue back mid 90's as well. I don't know if it is an issue with metal quality, heat treating, or the machining process being incorrect. but i know of a couple of different solutions that some people are using. 1. is regrinding the lifters with more radius on the bottom to make them spin more and the other is EDM machining a small hole in the bottom of the lifter to provide more oil to the cam/lifter interface. I know Howards Cams offers them for solid lifters, I don't know about hydraulic lifters.
anymore, I won't build an engine without a roller cam. a complete retrofit kit with springs, cam, lifters push rods, spring, retainers and keeps and a cam button is just over $1000 for summit or Comp. the same kit in flat tappet is around. $500-600. so, I look at the extra $500 as insurance against a flat came. also, a roller cam will provide better performance any way. so, it is a win/win. the only time will use a flat tappet any more is if it is a full restoration of something rare, like my 70 SS 396 Camaro, or a Z28, LS6, or Boss mustang and the owner is trying to keep it as close to the original as possible. and for those I use the Howards EDM solid lifters.
They are having these issues in production trucks too. It's systemic, the country has forgotten how to do things right, and doing things right may be more difficult or time consuming for production. It's a shame and I hope these industries are collaborating on their issue, I really do. I've had these issues as of late, last 5-6 years and it's frightening.
its not the country thats the problem. its the manufacturers. everything comes from china and they dont care. some years back they bought up the worlds scrap metal and mixed in their cheap bad metal and all metal is down to garbage at this point. about 10-20 years ago when everything started going over seas was the start of this whole problem. hell almost every new part on new cars come from china and its part of why they have so many failures before 100k miles.
It's either a carbon content problem or a hardening problem or a combination of both no doubt about it.
i deal with a place called Engine Parts Wearhouse they supply HP parts to jegs and summit they told me all the new lifters have problems and the industry plan is for hydraulic lifters to be obsolete and roller is going to be the new standard, so get ready.
I have 2 cams and 3 sets of lifters for an engine I am building and I am afraid to use them. I am going to install a retro roller kit to be safe. This will really set me back in my build and budget.
It took me 5 time of in and out and re-cam a Chev 383 that was going through lifters and cam then on the 5th time going back in the truck a full roller cam system is in the 383 then problem solved.
I spent so much money if I had the first time used the roller cam system I would have been done and using the truck
I noticed that Comp cam was a CWC core. Even in Datsun OHC engines, those CWC cams are failing.
because CWC uses chinese cores
We are in the "malaise era" for automotive components, especially for anything not current. I started seeing this cam/lifter issue really get bad over 5 years ago, and no, it's not the oil....Heck, in the 1940s and '50s normal oils had even less zinc and other anti-wear additives than current "low emission" oils do. I noticed "CWC" cast on your failed camshaft in the box. Cannon, Wyant, and Cambell foundry supplied the Detroit big three (Plus the independents) with millions of ferrous castings since prior to the 1920's. Most of the aftermarket cam grinders also depended on CWC cores right up to this day. With over 100 years of supplying the industry, the metallurgy should be fine....but, no oems' use cast iron flat tappet cams anymore, and all other applications for ferrous castings have been drastically reduced. So, I guess the lack of having to mass produce high quality castings for huge oems' (and guarantee quality) has lead to this, as the just ship out much smaller volumes to aftermarket cam grinders / vendors who also don't need to warrantee new cars !! They just don't care.
Funny enough, my 1927 Hudson super six has "CWC" block and head castings, but a roller cam ! From the factory in 1927 HaHa!
I think the same can be said for the low production runs of flat tappet lifters that go on them as well.
@@yurimodin7333 Absolutely right!
I build import cars and we don't seem to be having any quality issues over on our end of the spectrum and there doesn't seem to be too many quality issues with parts for LS engines or other modern stuff either. It seems that the majority of the issues are coming from parts made for old school pushrod engines. Back in the day when OEM's used flat tappet's the quality had to be guaranteed so it was there but once the oem's stopped and the supply of all the old stuff dried up the quality went down the toilet.
You poor car guys… I’ve been building Japanese motocycle race engines for years 15 years, taught by a guy that was doing it for 30 years and NEVER have I’ve seen this type of problem or heard about it. We don’t ever check the cam or the bucket because we simply don’t need to. It’s always perfect. Wow is all i can say…
if our v8 engine parts were made in Japan instead of COMMUNIST CHI NA, then we would be in luck.
@@danielslocum7169 Better buy NOS cams and tappets!
It's 2 things: Incorrect lifter face grind and incorrect taper on the cam lobes. Mostly the lifters are all bad. There are no more good flat tappet lifters available to buy anywhere, period. The name on the box is irrelevant. What do I do? Hydraulic roller cam if at all possible. It's not that much more even with the custom push rods. Hughes is good. Next: I hoard NOS flat tappet cams and lifters. I'm never able to buy 16 lifters at once, but I've always managed to make a set after a while.
Back in the '80's we used to replace worn, factory small block Chevy cams left and right. The boss had us put in parts store cams and lifters, change the oil and then "Go drive it around. " We'd take it to lunch, go to the store, whatever, 10 miles or so, and that was it. Never had a problem.
I just built a slant 6 for a guy. He wanted Comp Cams version of the Hyper-Pak cam. I made him buy NOS lifters. I used lots of moly lube on the cam lobes, Joe Gibbs Driven break in oil, 20 minute normal break in. He's now got 4000 miles on the motor. So far so good. I would have made him put in a roller but none were available.
The manufacturers don't care about these old "obsolete" engines now.
They have moved on.
All new engines have roller everything to work with low zinc, low additive oils needed for catalytic converter longevity.
Manufacturers have shifted production of the parts for older engines offshore to companies that can make parts that look OK but are made from inferior materials.
This is the case with everything.
Cams, lifters, springs, points, condensers, anything that is old technology that is no longer used in modern automobiles.
My suggestion for cams is to team up with a local cam grinder and regind and retreat cams to your specs.
Lifters, well that's a problem.
You may have to test lifters until you can find a source that supplies consistant high quality products and go with that, if not you will be forced to go roller everything.
I would definitely recheck the lobe taper on the affected lifter lobes Those witness marks(stripes) sure look like insufficient taper to me. Without doing metallurgic testing I can't provide you with much more than that.
Exactly. Not checking for lobe taper and lifter crown and then confirming lifter rotation before installing the intake is like playing Russian roulette.
I used to repair water chillers with GM SBC power and the cams were always the weak link
I am 76 and it took until the 4th cam to get one that worked. This only happened as a result of going to a diamond like coated (DLC) lifter from Comp Cams. I learned about these from a video on You Tube. This is very new. I called Summit Racing and asked them if I could exchange the new lifters with the new replacement cam with the DLC coated lifters. They are only about $15.00 more than a stock set of lifters. This is a plasma coating. It is almost as hard as a diamond and is carbon based so it is also slippery. It seems that when the lifter cannot wear the cam properly breaks in. Comp Cams had independent testing done and no matter how fast or how much spring pressure it did not care. They also abused it on break in on the spintron and again it did not care it just properly broke in.
ASK FOR DLC COATED LIFTERS WITH YOUR NEXT FLAT TAPPET CAM.
I gratefully thank Summit Racing for their support during this nightmare involving total lack of quality control obviously.
I hear ya buddy. Its a fact that uality control has gone out the window with both cam and lifter manufacturers. just because you check stuff dosent mean its all gunna be good. eems there is a sentiment out there to push us all towards roller. I dont know if it was planned or not but i think the opportunists are taking advantage of the failing Flat tappet market and trying to lend it a hand to come to a soft demise, Down here in Australia, im like you, a one man show engine builder. I am getting each cam and lifter set gone over by a small oldskool cam grinder shop that puts a matching taper on the cam lobe and lifter. It adds a couple of hundred to do but its worth the cost and effort. Say goodbye to the good'ol days buddy.
You are correct it is case hardening. Tempering of the product.
There has been a long wait for cams since 2022, big back log. When things like this happen steps get missed and compromises happen. Comp cams isn’t immune.
Everybody should use metal marking fluid... That purple stuff to see what cam company's are selling crap cams. Then every engine builder can avoid them until they see there sales plummet plummet and start making usable parts again. WE AS THE CONSUMER HAVE THE POWER TO SOLVE THIS PROBLEM! let's see those purple telltale results guys!
We share the same thinking Dave! I have no idea why the majority of people have become so "complacent, docile and accepting" of this total and absolute "shit show" happening everywhere! Within the businesses, banking, politics, education, agriculture systems....all running rampant with corruption and incompetence. I label this cultural behaviour as the 5 "C's":
1) Capitulators
2) Conformists
3) Collaborators
4) COWARDS
5) Complainers
Maybe we need more of that "passivation" drug invented by the Nazi's called "FLUORIDE" added to our municipal drinking water. Because the governments of the world are so concerned for the welfare of our teeth!
It's not as much as camshaft failure as it is LIFTER failure causing camshaft failure. Modern day cheaply made flat tappet lifters do NOT have the correct hardness anymore. If your going to build a flat tappet build it's in your best interest to find OEM lifters that have been sitting on a shelf for the last 20 yrs or more or, play it safe and go the roller cam route
Big Thx for putting up this Disturbing video.....I never or Heard of anyone around had any FT Cam or Lifter wipe-outs back in the '60's & '70's using pretty stout 150 psi Seat / 375Psi Lobe spring rates Without using any special oil (Break--in oil Unheard of) Just Liberal smear of Moly Disolfide paste on the Lobes...... Maybe you could get your Bad parts RW hardness Tested to Know if bad Metal Heat Treat is contributing to the problems......Some builders have Reported RW hardness Testing dozens of most Populat brand Cam lobes & Lifter faces & Not Finding any out of spec Soft parts.....Assuming Lobe Taper & Tappet face Convex dimensions are correct, & Good oil is used,.....What's the Chances of Good normal FT break-in ??
Good , factual , report. Comp cam execs should be hiding under their desks and dare not show up at SEMA 2023. You will be crucified with information like this and no explanations and refunds.
You are right on everything, first its the quality of the parts they sell, never seen these problems 30 years ago where i would replace lifters and use the same cam with 100k miles and no problems whatsoever, now the garbage they sell lasts 5 minutes and its trash before the engine warms up ,Johnson lifters is the way to go with a hardened camshaft
Anytime parts fail nowadays, I just assume it's chYnesium content is too high. Even though that doesn't seem to be the case here, the Quality of everything seems to be lower than it used to be.
Sad.
This is 3/24/24 and I have a year on a Chev stroker 383 with 5 times in and out of the truck with the exact same cam - lifter fails.
On the 5th time the engine going back in the truck the 383 got a full roller cam system to stop this crazy problem.
Each time the cam & lifter failed I never got the truck out of the driveway only max 10 minuets of running wiped out cam & lifters.
I have built big block and 426 HEMI engines over the years and have used Lunati, CompCams and Mopar Perf. Cams. The only lifters I will use are Mopar Performance Lifters both solid and hydraulic flat tapped. Nock on wood I have never had a cam failure. I rebuilt a HEMI last year and changed from a solid flat tapped to a hydraulic. The old cam and lifters that came out of the engine were in excellent condition. Showed very little wear. The cam was a CompCam with Mopar performance lifters. I have been buying up several sets of the Mopar Performance Lifters for future use.
I see and feel your frustration.
I watched your video from start to finish.
I have had to deal with this, and had customers and or people I know.
The warehouses Will Not Stand behind the parts they sell.
So the engine builder is the bag holder.
The warehouses should stand behind all the parts.
We purchased in good faith that it was quality.
I measure every lobe now for taper and all lifters for convex and or radius.
Use the best break in lube.
I just subscribed to your channel.
Take care, Ed.
Thanks Ed for the moral support. I have some "ideas" I will put forward in a upcoming video. Regards, Tim
Im running a Hughes cam and lifters.. .627/640 lift and running 140/400 lb aprox springs and haven't had any issues in a 514 mopar..
Once a "Flat Pattern" develops across the lifter face, the lifter will probably "Lock in" to the cam Lobe & No further Rotation possible, & certain Lifter/cam lobe destruction.....On a Normal, Good running engine, is lifter Rotation Continuous or only During low lift/value Seated conditions ??......Should Lifter Rotation be checked under Full valve spring loaded pressure or on the Break-in spring load ??....On this Specific engine issue, what Malfunction Initiated or Started the Failure Cascade events ?? ....Inequate Lubrication/Oil quality Friction additive breakdown Failure, Initial lifter Non-Rotation binding under running spring psi, Or Inequate cam Lobe or lifter Face Hardness issues ?? One single Initial failure Point probably Cascaded & caused the Total worn parts condition.....Should both Cam lobes & Lifter Faces be Rockwell hardness Tested Before assembly & start up ??.....Are the new, non-Coated, cast cam Compatible "Tool Steel" lifters a Better lifter choice ??
You area great engine builder and I like the way you call it an engine instead of a motor
I installed a comp cam in my 327 build last year and whiped it out in 20 minutes. I'm scared to buy another one for $350 but I don't know what to do either.
@Outfits Garage a good place to start is to not use a Comp cam and lifter set. Try Isky or a Howards cam, anything but Comp.
@@kennywhiddon1497 10/4. I'll definitely look at another company
Comp Cam's blanks are soft steel. Seen a few wipe out within low miles! OEMs cams are substantially harder steel. Other aftermarket vendors use cam blanks of hard, long wearing steel.
@@xxxxxxxxxx6903 thanks for the info 👍
@@outfitsgarage88 , No problem! Back in the day before they chapter-11'ed and got sold a few times Crane made top tier camshafts. Maybe not the latest and greatest computer generated lobe profiles, but never saw one fail like the Comp units! 👀
Having seen this myself, I noted a new Comp Cam and lifter set showed a cam wear pattern on only one side of the lobe. The lifter has a small radius at new, and the cam should have a small angle across the lobe (from memory about half a thou) which combined causes follower rotation. This can be seen visually when using a small steel rule across the nose of the lobe. Run in is OK thus far, but only time will tell. I am told the new cam's lobes have been "Tufftrided" (Nitrogen surface hardening). I wonder if it is worth doing that to the cam again? This was on a Holden 308 engine here in Australia, so your troubles are not only on Mopars, they are industry common it would appear.
Good video enjoyed the logic, I have used only AMSOIL in any flat tappet engine I used and experimented multiple times my own engines selecting used cams with new lifters and extra spring pressures like 160 on the base and 375 on the nose with idle speed 1st 30 minutes operation and it passed the test multiple times using 10W40 AMO AMSOIL lubricant specific for flat tappet engines.
Yeah but who wants to go through the Amsoil bullshit if you can't buy that stuff at the store it ain't worth having.
you got to join the " idiot club " to get hosed with stupid high pricing.
Personally I use Valvoline I always have never had a problem I also add Lucas oil stabilizer especially on my race car never any problems.
Just trying to buy that bullshit amsoil I feel mad ready to spit nails and kick somebody's ass purple no I wouldn't use that purple trash either Not if it was given to me.
But I got a dumb question what would happen if you opened up those lifter bores a bit purposely putting them on a slight angle with the hone in relation to the cam less than .001inch.
Roller seems to be the safest bet these days. I recently built a 350 Chevy for my son in law with a stock cam and lifters using name brand parts. Cam failed with about 30 minutes run time. Did the break in and everything. So he cut his loses and went with a later roller long block and life's good now. It is what it is. I built engines years ago and never broke in one cam. No problems.
I always use low ratio rockers or light springs for break in, not had a failure in over 30 years. Metals are alot softer today
Nope.
Have been watching Nicks Garage for a good while. He has built several 426 Hemi's and 440 engines recently using Bullet Cams and Mellings flat tappet hyd. lifters. The engines have had up to 30 dyno runs and no issues yet with cam failure. What is he doing right? I have built engines back in 70's-80's with flat tappets and like you say never had a problem back then. Now I use hyd. rollers in my Ford engines.
Bullet cams.
I can tell you right now there's nothing wrong with that engine block, there's no consistency in lifter wear between your two sets of lifters, in the Mellings were all spinning, even the tore up one. If you go to Uncle Tony's channel, he makes a good video about how bad lifters are being made today. Brand new, out-of-the-box, with no taper on the face at all, the edges of the face lower than the center. Right out of the box! I just did a lunati voodoo cam, in a 302 and I got lucky. But there's been an awful lot of problems with lifters everywhere. They must have been built by Google's speech-to-text engine because it sucks as well. I had to edit this five times, because Google keep changing what I said.
This happens to me also. I posted this/these videos and have had many of my comment "replies" edited/eradicated by youtube. Complete bullshit and illegal against the "1st amendment" of the Constitution of the United States of America. And these fat, bloated and ignorant slugs (these "stupid" consumers) that call themselves "citizens" do nothing! Where does this road lead too?
it would be interesting to rock well the cam and lifters to test there hardness or lack of . the Q C of parts sucks these days take piston ring most of the time never had to file them but now with Hastings rings 75 + % time have to file them
made in India or China....
I ordered a cam kit from Comp over two months ago and it hasn’t come in. Edelbrock who owns them now tells me the lifters are back ordered. All these manufacturers are have issues producing product, I thinks it’s the billet cores that likely come from china that are the issues. They say made in USA but don’t think their raw material is good leading to these problems or lack of stock.
As the big three convert to electric expect things to get worse. The quality control demanded by OEM keeps the hotrod community in readily available, affordable cam cores. As that mass production goes away so will affordable access to good cam cores. If you have projects planned for the future buy the rough ground cores now and lay them back.
Just an observation, on the lifter pockets you dot marked in yellow marker take notice, if you look on the cylinder block wall above the marked lifter pockets, the block walls have a blue sheen apx 1-2" square (heat splash?) as if heat scored by the oil or what ever slung off by the marked off lifter??? Its hard to see with the videos however, some of these have a larger area of this "blueing" than others. Almost the same bluing like an oil starved rod has on the big end of a rod? Im not saying its oil starvation just curious over the lack of blueing that isnt over the none problem lifters. Take a sample of oil from the bottom of pan and smear on a clear glass and backlight the panel of glass, what is the color of flake IF any? So many questions. Do you think we need to Cryo and Nitride before break in like we used to do Ring and Pinions? I dont know what it is yet, watch it be something stupid simple. 40 years in the automotive and machine field however something looks too familiar yet cant draw it up from this bucket.....
Had a sealed power that wiped out 1 lobe the other 11 were fine. I let it idle during break in. Got a melling used full bottle of Lucas zinc. Ran about 2500 rpm for about 30 minutes. Left the zinc in for 1800 miles. About 1300 miles too long. So far the cam and lifters are doing good. The one lobe on the bad cam wore a lot and the lifter dished like a cereal bowl but was very smooth as if it were made that way. I used stp in the oil on both. Smelling thought my problem on the first one was that I let it idle. Also no zinc added on the first one. I say the problem was me.
I just watched a report on how recycled metals were adding a much higher percentage of garbage metal then they should be. Standards are lax. It's not just lifters though I've been battling this for months with multiple different types of car parts
I have a 318 and a 360 I tore down. While starting to put back together an ol fella let me know about this problem and there still sitting there tore apart till I figure it out
The problem is that Comp Cams is not owned by hotrodders anymore. Comp is owned by Industrial Opportunity Partners. It’s all about money and moving a lot of product. Buy your cams from a small cam grinder like Bullet Cams.
Elgin is also very good!
Doing a small block 340 hyd flat tappet camshaft swap here in Ponoka Alberta. I'm praying it willturn out.
I got the camshaft plasma nitride in Edmonton, hope it might help.
If you haven't confirmed lifter rotation, it would be a good idea to do so even if it costs you an intake manifold gasket set.
Hey!!......A fellow Canadian with the ONLY sensible provincial leader in the country! Did a fairly radical 340 "street" engine for a gentleman in your neck of the woods last fall. Hopefully he has it installed in his 70 'Cuda and running this spring. We went full Hughes roller valve train in that 340. Good luck with yours, Regards, Tim
Yeah it's definitely something with the new cams being fucking garbage quality with really aggressive ramp angle's. I have a slant in my pickup that the previous owner ran with the modern synthetic and I've put 13k miles on it with no problems. Another I had was a 283 with an older cam that I actually mixed up all of the used lifters with no problem. Another example is a 440 with a crower mach 7 cam WITH DUAL SPRINGS that sat for 20 years and the lobes ended up partially rusting and It was started like that unknowingly. the lifters ended up grinding the rust off even with the dual springs without damaging it's self and so far has lasted 500 miles. It currently has a couple pit marks on the ramps otherwise looks brand new so I'm reusing it.
I use tool steel lifters in Air cooled VW's because of the off shore parts were getting now.
I’ve built a few engines now, never had this problem until post-covid when I built up my dads 350 out of his 78 K20 4WD as a surprise gift to him for Christmas last year 2022. That Sbc didn’t last past 15 minutes of the cam break-in before it started making not-so-nice noises. Yanked the valve covers and half the rockers were loose as a goose! Snugged them down more, ran it another 5/6 minutes and the clatter came bk again! Off come the valve covers A SECOND TIME! More loose rockets. Snugged them down AGAIN! Few more minutes if runtime before they loosened yet again. This time I was at the bottom of the threads on the rocker studs and knew I had troubles!
Pulled the intake; looked like lithium grease in the lifter valley. Saw several lifters unusually LOWER in their bores. Started pulling lifters and saw the same crap as you; half of them were ground to a slant on their bottoms. UNBELIEVABLE! Luckily I bought the cam kit through Summit who warrantied it w/o an issue.
From what I heard through other vids on RUclips of other engine builders is that all the major cam manufacturers in the good ol’ U.S. of A all use lifters from only one or two lifter manufacturers here in the states (was shocked. Thought Comp, lunati, etc all made their own lifters. Apparently they don’t. They get their lifters from one or two US companies. And during covid those sources went dry of their supplies and ran out due to lack of labor during the pandemic. So these cam manufacturers pulled from…you guessed it! CHINA 🇨🇳! They got their lifters from CHI-NA, as Trump says it. And you know those lifters are JUNK! No proper heat-treating from their garage, as you also said. So now the question is; just how many of these junk Chinese lifters are still floating around on the shelves of all these cam companies and big box stores like Jegs and Summit?!?! Enough to make you cringe at the thought of doing a cam swap now that isn’t roller, tell ya that much! It’s all a shame. And too swap cams out of these older engines isn’t too too bad in itself but when the engine gets grayish, metal paste infused oil pumped all through its oil galleries and there’s now a necessary tear-down in order and bearings now need to be replaced that’s a whole different matter and bigger issue!
My guess is the American motor market is a niche market, not widespread anymore so they don't bother making decent steel anymore. 99.9 percent of people drive the new junk computer cars. Roller cams can die just as quick, they just cost more. Best bet if possible is finding old cams and lifters, over 40 years old.
there are loads and load of potential issues with camshaft wear. My advice, I only use and install rollers, I just don't want the headaches.
Parts are crap today for even late models. Look at the garbage that Ford put out with their 5.4. If you hear a tick, you better shut down and get it fixed right away. And Chevy with the crappy cylinder deactivation on their V8's coming apart. N.O.S. stuff made decades ago is hard to come by. Flat tappet cams haven't been used by the manufacturers in years now and the parts suppliers figure most are in the junk yard. They don't have to make parts any more so Chinesium crap is all there is, even for the brand names. What do you do if you have a make that doesn't have rollers available for your classic ride? No good solution. Find some parts store that has old stuff in the back room still?
Edelbrock 5487 Cam and lifter set. 8000 miles, no damage. Before you install a modern flat tappet cam and lifters, you need to de-bur and polish the cam lobes to a shine and make sure the lifters are slightly extruded and polished. Then use a real break-in oil. Modern oil with an additive will not work. After break-in, change the oil and only use oil made for flat tappet cams. At 4:20, I can see those lobes have not been polished or deburred, that'll kill the lifters right there.
This I suspect is a steel supplier issue.
I see a comp cam that was ground too flat on the lobe ramps and base circle. Normally a cam wears to the side so the lifters keep spinning. Maybe the hardening on the cam was bad and it wore out the taper immediately, but it looks to me like the lifters never did ride to the side of the base circle. I'd measure it. It should be more than the measured crown on the lifter face. I think I'll start measuring my stuff more now too.
I have a ritual i go through for doing flat tappets. never had one go bad. many over 300 over the nose. no nitride on the cam and no special hard bottom lifters. engines out there for years. I ran the Engine Masters Challenge a few times when we had to run flat tappets....650" lift, high ratio rockers and heavy valve train..no problems im in Ontario Canada
Hi Dale. Where in Ontario are you Dale? I'm in Hamilton, send me an email as I like to "chat" with you. Kind regards, Tim Muzak
Metalmaxmopar@gmail.com
so whats your ritual???
Proper break-in procedure is explained in the 1957 Chevy shop manual. Most "mechanics" are clueless to the procedure. 40 +years ago we discovered the cause of SBC cam failure, two things in particular are clearly evident as being causal. Idle speed being too low, SBC cam oiling was basically splash oiling, low RPM low oil splash and piss poor cam engineering, narrow lobes being one, (also quality control) they only cared about lasting long enough to fulfill warranty liability. One of the things they did in the 80's was to raise idle, put a switch on steering box, so at full lock it boosted the idle, also boosted idle with a/c on. We sold/installed camshafts frequently on vehicle that sat and idled, oil well pumpers, delivery people, anyone who left vehicles idle for extended periods, jack the idle a bit change oil regularly, no problems.
I hate to tell you this but roller are having problems to
I know this ain't a Mopar that's I had built butt . i had built a Chevy 383 stroker engine with Comp Cams. Cam and lifters spring package everything I want through this 3 times the same issue Comp Cams every time with Comp Cams did proper Break in with proper oil hi zinc oil additive also went through the same thing you're having with your Mopar engine build. three Comp Cams went through the same issue every time they warranty each one got my money back after the third one I went back to using lunati cam a full package with absolutely no problem and I've been doing motor work and rebuilding for many many years. Never had an issue with lunati cams and spring packages ever since. I wouldn't use Comp Cams if they gave it to me
Lunati and Edelbrock are owned by Comp
Damn this problem, you clearly have good experience and knew about the issue and checked everything beforehand. What the hell is happening?
So how is this possible? Are they not getting it all in the oven or not into a quench fast enough? Is the ovens charts off? Is it someone trying to flame harden? Oh this is something that is going to drive me as a machinist and someone who has extensive h.t. and metallurgy knowledge crazy. If you’re able to get to the bottom and absolute cause please reach out and let us know, I can’t be the only one.
Maybe these companies need an open letter from engine builders in the USA, be it a pro or backyard mechanic. Maybe get that letter published through somebody. Maybe that will wake some companies eyes and they will dig in their production facilities to see if they have issues. Just a simple letter. Also we should know if a product is built and engineered 100 percent in America with zero outside influence, no foreign metals, no foreign hired help, just all American from step A to Z. You can't make trash to get it out the door, if a price needs to be needled up a bit for it to be done right then that's what the market is for that specific product.
@@iq6840 You do realize that the people who are selling you these junk parts are Americans right? The problem is with American business owners who are so incompetent (i.e Frauds) that they feel as if engineering of components isn't top priority.
I'm sure you remember the 1980's Japan vs USA trade war because "Made in the USA" product quality was so bad compared to the Japanese stuff that took away sales from American firms. All of it was foreign steel and foreign engineers. Americans sell trash too and Americans buy it because its "Made in the USA".
You'll find that nobody cares about nationalism in industrial production. People will buy from anywhere as long as they have HIGH QUALITY, meeting spec.
@@iq6840 Most companies are owned by Chinese investors who dont care
@@Schlipperschlopper I know it's crap.
I subscribed to see how this ends up with the Johnsons.
I'm rebuilding a Buick 350 right now for a sporty commuter type of build. I stressed over cams (just hot street cams mind you) for nearly 2 months because of this lifter striping situation. Before I even knew what was going on, this engine has worn through a Comp Cams kit and a Schnider ground TA cam with Crane lifters. The problem has mostly been on the driver's side and could have some correlation to Buick's oiling system and a poor first rebuild. But I'm hoping that another cam and Johnson lifters straight from TA (the only big Buick aftermarket specialist left) and some oiling improvements will stop the TAP TAP TAP. Because a roller cam and lifters is going to be a difference of over $1,100 USD minimum. IF I can even get a cam.
Unfortunately, yes, you need to go roller these days. Sad but true. I wouldnt build anything HFT anymore.
However cm dynamics is a profile for an .842 lifter o it has to work harder to match a .904 lifter profile Street Hemi grind Street Hemi is obsolete but would still have less pressure lifter to cam and may have more area under the curve
Comp Cams DLC lifters. The coating seems to stand up. We had rockwell hardness testing done and found most reputable brands were very soft. After losing 5 engines(doing all the right stuff) we were tearing our hair out. So far the new DLC lifters seem to work. We go for the lightest springs we can for break in and running in oil is important too. R
Thank you for the info. It just bothers me purchasing more product from a company that refuses to deal/resolve the "original" issue of machining, heat treating the FT lifter face. Then they come out with a "coating" for a much higher cost that "resolves" the lifter wear problem. We are all being played for suckers.
how come NHRA Stock class racers are no complaining? few years back all were saying that Hydraulic cams were just as good to go quick as a Roller,and people started buying more hydraulics. now 2020 happened and suddenly all are gone stores? and prices soared now all saying dont buy dont use buy the now very expensive roller. Just a passing thought
There is a simple straight forward answer. NHRA tech inspection for "stock eliminator racing" is ONLY concerned that the cam is a "FLAT TAPPET" design and the "LIFT & DURATION" for a specific engine package is the same spec's that came from the original car/engine manufacturer. Any NHRA "stock eliminator" engine builder spending 20 to 35 thousand (+) dollars on a "competitive cylinder head/short block assembly", would use "billet steel" camshaft cores for their grinds from a cam grinder like "Jones", and or "special camshaft metal treating" procedures from the aftermarket grinders and "special material/tool steel" for their lifters. In today's world, NOBODY who is competitive in NHRA "stock" class racing runs mass produced "off the shelf" components in their engine package, especially the "camshaft".
T o fully diagnose the cam and lifters, you need either a set of Japanese Hardness files (Amazon) or take the cam and lifters to a shop that has a Rockwell Hardness tester. This process does put a dent in the metal so it shoud be performed in an area where there is no wear surface. Cam Cores are usually hardened to 50-55 HRC, lifters should be above 40 and up with 45 and up better to prevent scoring. There are 2 core manufacturers that produce and supply cast iron cores to comp, Isky, Melling, etc. and independent cam grinders and race teams. Not much has changed with the cam cores. Grinding is where the problems can stem from. If the cam lobe has a 0.0015" taper from front to back (as if sitting in the engine), then the lifter needs only 0.001" plus maybe a couple tenths so the lifters rotate. The perfect crown on a lifter is between 0.0015" and 0.002". This will insure the lifters rotate. A crown of 0.003" is too much. To measure, you need a flat surface and a height gauge or a magnetic dial indicator set.Place the lifter on the flat surface ( a granite surface plate would be ideal) and place the dial indicator over the lifter and zero it. Move the lifter from edge to edge and see how many thousandths is read. A can taper can be checked with a micrometer and remember, the taper you read is twice the actual taper as you are reading diameter, hopefully 2 diameters so the smaller is subtracted from the larger and divided by 2. The files are a lot cheaper an very effective. Start with a 50HRC and try filing the camshaft on the small area that is unused and try to file a mark. No mark means it is harder than 50. Then go to a 55HRC. If it marks, the hardness is between 50 and 55 and you are good to go. Never add a bottle of ZDDP to your oil. It can upset the chemistry of the oil and actually aggravate wear. Unless you can analyze the mix, it is a crap shoot. Use a good break in oil for the first 500 miles and cut the filter open and inspect it for particles, use a magnet to see if steel or non-ferrous if any are present. Amsoil and Driven are probally the 2 best companies from which to get a break in oil. I just purchased 2 sets of lifters. The first set was Melling and I only used a machinists straight edge and a flash light and 4 brand new lifters have NO crown. I have since purchased a set of Johnson from Crower and they are all good. The light and straight edge method needs patience so don't be hasty in checking. It is not accurate so a dial indicator that reads in tenths would be much better. This doesn't answer your question about what we should do but checking everything prior to assembly is now mandatory for success. One last thing, grooving your lifter bores with the tool from Comp or other suppliers (same tool) is a guarantee that the lobes get oil and it is reusable versus special lifters with a hole in the bottom. Hope this helps everyone. One last thing. What is your engine worth? It is worth more than a complete oil change and I suggest you get an oil analysis. It is simple to perform just follow the instructions about how and when to get the sample for the vial provided and send it off. You will get a full report of what is possibly mixed in the oil from iron and non-ferrous metals , coolant and fuel dilution. Once analyzed a report will be sent to you and if you get a call, you have serious issues. The report will tell you what the contaminants are, how much, and what steps should be taken or just motor on. Amsoil and Driven offer oil analysis kits.o.
Excellent post Stovebolt56. I am familiar with the "surface hardness files" as I used them when I needed a "quick and crude" hardness indication on a specific materials/component before preparing tests on a Rockwell "C" scale or on the very accurate Vickers hardness testing machine. My background is metallurgical/QC/NDT and I ran the quality/met lab for a company in Canada making "in core" instruments for nuclear reactors. We manufactured "Liquid level probes" and "neutron flux" detectors for the Canadian "Candu's" and the "Westinghouse AP1000" units sold internationally.
Many ASTM testing procedures for incoming materials, their "grain" structures and "simulated in service wear" (eg. 24 hr boiling acid baths) of completed components were routine as this industry uses very "exotic" engineering materials in the construction of components. Test for "nuclear" materials & components as in "aviation" are multiples of multiples. Lets put it this way, testing "mistakes" were "frowned" upon and numerous "quality audits" were performed on this company. This is as it should be, as mistakes in these businesses can be catastrophic and cost lives. Enough of my education and work history.
I am very familiar with the measuring process and the taper dimensions on the camshaft lobes, but I did not know about the lifter "crown" if it measures in or close to 0.003". (I'll be getting a precision granite surface stone shortly as I have been using a thick piece of glass which is not the best! The rest of the measuring equipment I have.) Where did you find this spec?
I also have been researching the zinc blended oils vs zinc additives with/into oils. I understand API specs for later "SL/SM/SN/SP" rated oils have much more "detergent" additives that inhibit the bonding of these "zinc" additives to ferrous metal parts. There is also another concern of "too much zinc" (in PPM's) in these specifically "blended" high zinv oils and in "break in" oils.
To much zinc attack's the "grain boundaries" of these ferrous metals and can cause the material to expierence the following condition:
"Exfoliation is a special type of intergranular corrosion that occurs on the elongated grain boundaries. The corrosion product that forms has a greater volume than the volume of the parent metal. The increased volume forces the layers apart, and causes the metal to exfoliate or delaminate."
In the past, I have witnessed this personally with the micro grain structure analysis of stainless steels. It's a real problem. Another term one could use is "flaking". No one wants a "flaking camshaft lobe(s) or flaking lifter face(s)". This does not happen "quickly", but over time, this could be a serious problem. What is the correct mixture in ppm's? These oil producers have zinc ppm numbers ranging all over the map....certainly, "more" zinc is NOT better! More food for thought!
Again, thanks for your intelligent reply. Kind regards, Tim Muzak
Its a great way for Comp and other company's to push the roller cams. being they cost more. Win win for the company. Not the consumer.
metalurgy is one issue and lubricant quality is the other factor, so what lubricant was used? Watching video now gathering data.
Have the bad lifters Rockwell tested for hardness , if there soft you may have to check all lifters for hardness before installing, that would be something else to check
Need to have a class action lawsuit against comp cams until they stop screwing people over or go out of business
I am building a 4.3 GM right now the customer insisted in comp cams parts and I have had nothing but trouble with everything we got from them. Never again will I buy it install a damn comp camps product. Now I guess I can expect this cam to go flat on the build too.
@@cygnus1965 buy a cam from howards
@@cygnus1965 Install what the customer wants. If they insist on Comp Cams let them know there will be NO warranty! I have had bad luck with Comp Cams and I refuse to use any of their products. I did rebuild another engine for my 1968 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme and I did convert it to a roller cam. The only thing from Comp is the cam button. I'm sure that will be the only thing to fail. I just rebuilt the 305 in my 1987 Chevy P/U. I am using an Edelbrock flat tappet cam and lifters with Driven break in oil. The engine is in and I am hooking everything up now. I am nervous about how it is going to go. I have rebuilt many engines and never had a cam and lifter failure. Take care .
@@cygnus1965 Lunati and Edelbrock are also comp cams owned! Beware!
That is such BS. Workmanship isn’t like it used too be. Buyer beware on all the parts. Too much is being farm Ed out to China.. not saying that’s what happened but it’s worth considering given that most companies need that bottom line of profiteering.
High spring pressures & windage tray blocking oil spray on break in?
Check Radii on base of new lifters, correct to 2 degrees radii, should rotate when you bar engine over before installing intake manifold
Have been building engines for years the camshaft and lifter quality has dropped significantly I have used nos cam and lifters and the difference is huge it's not all the oil like companies try to say most lifters face are not properly machined and lobes have rough edges