Couple of errors pointed out! 1. Astrometric instead of Astronomical (A typo I must have corrected to the wrong term and not checked because it sounded right) 2. It has been mentioned that the Enterprise fended off a plasma bolt with 70% of its deflector shields, but I assumed this was a different projectile to the ones that struck the D7s based on colour although it could be that the plasma bolts also contain a method of communication. 3. It's size was also mentioned at 82 AU not 22, I have no idea why I noted 22 down. 4. No, I cannot pronounce Ilia, even in my own playthrough series I get it wrong moments after hearing it said to me, sorry 'bout that to anyone with the same name!
My only issue with Veger is that is where is why everyone thought it fell in a black hole? (I thought they said wormhole.) The problem with a black hole is that having one so close to earth would be problematic. Keep in mind that voyagers population is no longer functional, so they speed they are traveling at is their max velocities. Even if you add 500 years to their journey they still would not be close to the nearest star. So if even a small primordial black hole came that close to us it would likely strip off at least part of the ort cloud, and possibly a plannet or two.
@@FrozenKnight21They clearly say that it must have fallen into “what they used to call a black hole.” And you’re forgetting the ironclad rule of of sci-fi movie writers being fundamentally unable to grasp astronomical scales of size and distance.
I know, right! I love Star Trek I because it's secretly a cosmic horror movie! Space is scary and terrifying, people melt in transporter beams, the Enterprise nearly gets obliterated by engine failure, and Earth is menaced by an almost unknowable alien entity.
I recently revisited The Motion Picture after a couple of decades and came away with a much better impression than I used to have. The V'ger concept and Spock's eroded social skills were really engaging.
@@RandyBaumery-s4i yeah, I think most Trek fans know this. Decent episode, but The Motion Picture really is a standout sci-fi flick, even beyond being a Trek movie.
@@illyth63The Motion Picture took risks that most science fiction avoids these days. And I miss in more modern stuff. I don’t think they were necessarily successful but at least they kept trying. Wrath if Kahn is a masterpiece of a film but it’s basically a naval/piracy story in space. A good sci-fi should periodically leave you wondering “what the fuck was that about?”
@@lifotheparty6195 Wrath of Khan is no Masterpiece - the plot is driven by uncharacteristic bad decisions of fan favorite characters. Kirk let down his crew by not following Starfleet General Order 12, to raise the shields as the Reliant approached without establishing communication. Spock was also on the bridge and not only should have reminded Kirk himself, but interrupted Savvik as she tried to remind him. Doctor McCoy failed to scan Checkov and Captain Terrell even after being told that Kahn put creatures in their bodies. And finally, the offspring of the Brilliant Doctor Carol Marcus, and the Legendary Captain James T. Kirk was basically a throw away character. Easily captured and killed off in the following Movie by a few clumsy Klingons. Star Trek - The Motion Picture is the BEST film for the Original Series Cast and ALWAYS will be.
The technology on which V'ger is based is so advanced that it makes even the Borg look like cavemen. As for the evolution of V'ger, I've always had a theory. The only life form in the Star Trek Universe that is more evolved than V'ger is a Q. I always imagined that by the end of the movie, when V'ger disintegrates and disappears, it evolves into a new Q.
The Iconians, The T'Kon Empire, Saurians have all displayed technology that surpassed that of The Borg and have displayed technical feats on at least the level of V'Ger. Q and other non-corporeal entities to varying degrees can literally manipulate reality. V'Ger posesses no technology that even remortely approaches this.
considering there is an implied connection between humanity and the Q, that doesnt seem that far off. maybe though, the Q are not evolved from V'ger, but V'ger is the Q Continuum itself, with the Q being avatar, living probes it creates as the highest possible level of data retrieval, probes sentient themselves and omnipotent.
@@rimasmuliolis1136 Nope, Q continuum is remnant of previous universe. Q stated, that when big bang occurred, they already existed. So Q is more likely like Galactus in Marvel. Fact is, that Q is Roddenberrys child. Gene was more philosophical sci-fi author, then scientific, in which TNG and whole ST franchise quickly evolved. For this type of authors is typical confrontation with God. Although in TOS and TAS were presented multiple god like beings, he decided to introduce true God into TNG. Power of Q has no limits. They are far superior to anything ST franchise ever presented, even Vger.
Rick. I'm guessing that you are aware of the Shatner novel 'The Return' from April 1997. In it Kirk is revived (following his death on Veridian 3) by the Borg as a possible replacement for Locutus and when on a mission to rescue Kirk, Spock gets past a Borg security scan because he registers as 'Borg' from his mind meld with V'Ger.
I had a star trek book of timeline that Gene suggested that vger may have been a reprogram andxsent back by the Borg.. before they became the Borg from or interaction with Vger
There is no possible way V'ger was influenced by the Borg. If the Borg had the kind of power that V'ger had, there would have been no way the Federation survived a single cube.
@@TheRezro If that were true, then why is Humans designated "species 5618" by the collective instead of species 01? To use a random numbering list would not seem very efficient.
V'ger was created in the Nekrit Expanse by accident when a borg sphere was cut off from the collective and the Voyager 6 probe was captured for it's parts. In doing so the Voyager 6 probe radio communication backfired and altered the borg nanoprobes programing to serve a new purpose..
As a younger person I was struck by how intensely the recipients of Voyager must have felt about the simple sort of rickety thing that it was. I believed that there was a deeply sentimental reaction to it's naked earnesty and intrepid nature even/especially as a very antiquated technological vehicle. I thought that the sheer size, power, capability and agency given to that probe was the measure of the intensity and positive sentimentality felt for what was in the original programming. It swelled my heart and I thought it was a very beautiful gesture and scifi idea. Now, as an older person of 44, I think that the Voyager probe was recieved somewhat similarly as an extremely limited and truly physically vulnerable vehicle. Being that it was made simply and we had weight limitations to what we could launch into space it had to be a bit rickety to our preferred standards. I tend to suspect now that it was a terrifying upgrade to the probe based on a reaction of deeply held horror at the weakness of the vehicle versus how worthy it's programming seemed to be. It seems now as if "they" were sending it back to take over the probe's origin planet and upgrade all technology there by ten thouand years in one fell swoop. That is terrifying.
What I've always said. Wrath of Kahn is good, but it was the one that turned ST movies into just action space battles, instead of the (more or less) hard sci-fi exploration series the original series was.
Same, I never understood people's desire to connect all machine based life to V'ger; why make the story telling potential of trek smaller? Universe is way to big for everything to be connected. Plus the borg/v'ger connection never made sense as V'ger could easily make it's own probes to do what was needed, why rely on inferior cyborgs?
Can you? "Because that is what Roddenberry said" This is what you said, I'm asking for a source for that claim. Link to an Interview or what ever, if its true it shouldn't be that hard right?
Kelvin timeline vger is very chill. I hope it's thanks to prime Vger. Also I think Vger traveled the Universe not just our Galaxy as something of Vger's power would be spotted.
@@BigJeremyBeyer it didn't. It was a comic appearance only. Nero used it like a universe sized calculator to know when Spock would appear through the red matter rift.
You are correct, but the director's cut states that it is only 2 AUs in diameter, and both have it dissipating as it entered the solar system. Hence, different measurements.
@@LokiOdinson-fz8ps is the "he" you're talking about Rick in this video, or the Epsilon 9 officer in the original cut of the film? Because in the original cut, he absolutely says 82 AUs. No mistaking it for 22. The 22 figure might come from some Beta canon source, but it's definitely not from the original cut.
There is so much I didn't know about this movie and its lore. I saw it as a kid and it was just too much for my brain to handle. As an adult revisiting tmo, the lore is amazing.
V'ger may be a low number entity in the borg database. Maybe something close to machine perfection in the collective's view. That may be why they imitate V'ger's form.
V'ger and the Whale probe are both just really fascinating to me. Just these huge mysterious objects moving thru space. I always wanted to see a race or two of the Delta quadrant react to the Starship Voyager thinking it was somehow connected to V'ger.
i genuinely want to see where the whale probe came from... i mean that one probe basically wrecked the federation. and it was not even a blooddy weapon. it was essentially a probe to do a house call on whales... so we're talking a ancient alien race that has vested interest in whale life on earth. but are so powerful and technologically advanced that it can create something like that.
The "Delta" quadrant - means most of Star Trek takes place in one section of this galaxy. That always blew my mind that they'd (as far as I know, which is like season 2 of Discovery) have not explored it fully - if even HALF of it.
The fact that Voyager never met the V'ger race or the Whale Probe race was a missed opportunity. We could have had that instead of yet another Naomi Wildman or holodeck episode.
I wouldn’t trust Voyager to pull off a concept like this very well. They rarely pulled off large scale intellectual concepts, and the times they used the Q it got really messy. They even overused the Borg and time travel by the end.
I don't think so. Not anything needs to be connected. The mystery of those entities is more fascinating that another preposterous callback just to make some nerd masturbate.
They could have found the planet that built the whale probe or V'ger. But the lifeforms there had moved to a new higher class of being. Voyager finds their home world and all it's advanced tech. They're ready to scavenge it only for the Borg to show up. To prevent the Borg from assimilating it Voyager finds a way to destroy the planet or its star.
I now like the idea of that maintenance species existing, but they were *assimilated* by the Borg, which is where the Borg got that style, but they were already around.
In unfinished scenes Kirk after he went to see where Spock ran off to is attacked by these tetrahedral objects that split off of V'ger. They all attach to Kirk and is almost smothered by them before Spock rescues him. Instead of Spock exploring alone V'ger's inner chambers, they were supposed to go together and see various machine drones performing tasks. I wish they had more money and time to properly finish the movie.
The thing about V'ger is at least since I got kinda tired of the Borg, I thought a great solution to the Borg being there would be like, a massive Borg invasion fleet's bearing down on the Federation and then Voyager returns from higher planes to assimilate all of *them* :) Naughty Borg. :) :)
Many fans I know find them boring, but I loved the two scenes in ST:TMP where the Enterprise flies through the cloud and over V"Ger. I love the music for those scenes. Creepy and cool.
V'Ger. I love this entity. Its origin is unknown, other than what was given onscreen. Characters like that generate so many fan based theories it's wild. Also a fantastic use of imagination.
This is now apocrypha, but earlier released edits of the film, V-GER's cloud was measured at "over eighty AUs" across in size. This was stated by a Tactical officer aboard the Epsilon Station, just before V-GER "recorded" it. Later versions have since been reedited to change the size to something more managable.
Excellent analysis my friend. Ever since I first saw TMP as a kid, it was a task to try and,"assemble" Vger's layout in your mind. Which of course was inherently by design. I really appreciated your approach and I look forward to revisiting TMP with wiser eye's. 🤘🖖
Imagine you live on Hawaii and a random hamster washes up on your beach. You nurse it back to health and place it in a ball inside of a giant battleship the size of Oahu and then send it off to find it's way home. Now scale that up to a planetary scale. That's how we got V'Ger.
Plot twist... Star Trek universe is actually a "Dark Forest" type universe only Starfleet and all the others are not advanced enough to be noticed. Some really advanced race just off handedly armed somebody's probe and sent it back home, like "not old enough..but when it arrives they will be riped for dealing with.".
@@DreamskyDance I. Fucking. HATE! The dark forest concept. It's overly cynical and intellectually vapid and lazy which makes it deeply appealing to edgelords and easy shocked normies alike. I reject the notion that hatred and fear is so deeply coded into all life regardless of the myriad evolutionary or sociological variables across hundreds or thousands of planet. And if I'm wrong about it I'd much rather be wiped out and spared from such a miserable existence than have to live in constant fear of my neighbors.
@@Raso719 Yeah, completely agree infact you basically stated it like i do :D I was just presenting a funny plot twist postulate, i dont support dark forest concept. And everything you said is completely valid. Dark forest is nihilistic regurgitation with new words. And in the off chance that it is true, if all is just dark and hateful universe, it is better to live delusionaly believing that there is light than to make peace and live in * that *.
Still to this day, ST:TMP is one of _the finest pure sci-fi films_ ever made. It is so sad & pathetic that in today's age of incredible CGI and unlimited ability to tell stories via film, writers are completely incapable of penning incredible stories like this one.
The story of TMP was originally intended of course, as the pilot for the sequel Star Trek TV series - and was written by Alan Dean Foster. A talented and prolific fantasy and SF author. You can see the influence as well, of when it was written - the 1970s were a period when "think piece" science fiction was surging both in print and in popular media. Star Trek Phase 2 (the series) was conceptualized as a more intellectual and challenging show than the original series. Foster wrote this script treatment outline with that ideal in mind. The problem with most popular science fiction media today is that most of it is no longer written by anyone who actually writes sci-fi or fantasy. Or even reads them. Or cares about subjects like science. Because the value of screenwriting has diminished - it is seen as merely putting words into actors mouths to get the movie made. Most of the writers left who care about the craft or have any ideas for stories to tell, are not SF/fantasy writers. This is why we have, for example, a huge amount of money poured into Apple's Foundation series to pay for great actors and push vast production values - but the writer for the series doesn't even know what a lightyear means. And does not have any idea what a galaxy is... shaped like. Or how far apart stars are. Or what the speed of light means. Of course, that writer and others like them deserve some blame themselves for treating their subject carelessly - they could have taken one evening to educate themselves for free on Wikipedia or dozens of popular astronomy websites.
Good stories arent written and made by Quarterly Profit. We need to return to the times before the nonsense that is our modern economy. It is kind of ironic that ST is itself satire against capitalism and what COULD BE if we abandoned the forced scarcity society we are now oppressed under.
In a video game "Star Trek: Legacy" V'ger created the Borg to expedite its amassing of information. People don't consider this game canon but with ALL actors reprising their roles as captains, that is pretty darn close.
Oh come on i was just thinking that Vager is The Most Powerful Entity in Star Trek Lore and i would love to animated Vager and The Whale Peobe encountering each other now this drops lol. Respect and keep up the epic work.
@@dupersuper1938 Seeming that they are scared of The Borg and that is why they don't mess with them i doubt they would mess with Vager who arguably is way more powerful then The Borg.
@@ShakaarGaleed Oh yeah, the tinfoil cone lol, Last seen trying to travel faster than warp 9.999999999999999999, It was in a Star Trek Book i read Years ago, it was TNG, the enterprise encountered the Doomsday machine, I wish i could remember the book better, but my brain is full of holes lol.
V'ger is among the coolest things in Trek! Would be neat to see more of V'ger but also I suspect it would end up subtracting from what makes V'ger so interesting. And if I had to take a guess at who repaired V'ger it would be the two robot factions in a perpetual war from Voyager. I could see their AI being simple enough as not to see V'ger as just a tool but a being such as themselves.
That was postulated to be Cybertron before the civil war broke out. Cybertron was a vastly different world before any current varient. So different that none of it's current inhabitants know anything about that era but in brief mythical flash backs with crumbling remnants of that world making occasional but incomplete appearances. Only Unicron would know about them and he has no plans on spilling those beans
In my personal head cannon once V'GER joined with Decker the human need to procreate made them create the Q . That is how the Q know so much and are so powerful. They are the children of V'GER and have all of V'GER's knowledge.
What is actually quite probable. I always suspected Q to be possible machines protection T'Kon Transwarp Gate network. On top of that there is clear paralel to Prophets of Bajor, who may be actually Q.
There was a beta canon comic that shows Q witnessing the birth of the entity that Decker-Illia-V'Ger created by the fusion and he separates them because the fusion didn't bring them into a true union or focus, and Q lectures and gives lessons to Decker about the weight of god-like power and ability, and when to and not to use them. He reintegrates them afterwards as their intended form but much more unified than they were. From that point though, Q takes an interest in Earth and observes it more closely
@@EagleTempest Lot of Trek lore sill is a mystery. The major thing is that Machine Federation exist beyond time. It is commonly matter of debate if something is the same or separate? And there is nothing wrong in that. Good example of that is TNG episode with Iconia. For most of the episode he is telling Iconian legend of great empire. But on the end he conclude that others see them as tyrants. Same is true in many of those cases. We hear more a legend (STO is holonovel) then strictly what did happen. But there is also clearly a bigger narrative there. I like that.
Ok. I must say that. Last SNW episode where wormhole alians turn Spoke into human. Those clearly are not aliens from Ruins! It was clearly a T'Kon transwarp gate similar to Celestial Temple. Those aliens straight talk like annoying automated consumer service. They are machines! And another fun detail is that they refer to themselves as Blue and Yellow. Who could use those distinct colors I ask🤔(Starfleet Divisions🤫)
I think it would be cool to revisit this story, have Vger come back and have a reason to interact with humans again. Maybe have a copy of the original Enterprise and crew from the motion picture, and have them work with a modern crew, or future crew, to solve some kind of existential crisis. Maybe they can travel back to the 90s and save a Furbie
There was a rejected script for season 1 of TNG where Commander Decker would appear on the Ent-D's bridge in a Q-style flash of light. Complications ensue.
The first Trek movie is my favourite. It has it;s problems, but it felt much less like a TV episode than the others, and it has a far grander concept. V'Ger really is huge and alien beyond human comprehension. It's very clever the way th emovie gives us an extended flyby of the enormous Enteprise, but later we see it reduced to almost invisibly small again V'Ger's ship. That ship is a stunning design - it's extremely alien and inhuman lacking any sort of comforting familiarity in it's design.
"it felt much less like a TV episode than the others." Well, after TMP was considered by the studio to have been "too expensive," they gave the Star Trek movies to Paramount's television crews. Harve Bennett, the producer on Star Trek 2 - 5, was best known before as being the producer for the Six Million Dollar Man and The Bionic Woman.
I absolutely LOVE Star Trek the Motion Picture. The only one I love more is Wrath of Khan. I love STtMP especially because of the well written story and the reveal of Vger being Voyager 6 and having attained sentience. Especially given the relative "youth" of the science fiction genre.
The design of vger reminds me of vorlon tech from babylon 5 the visual effect from the motion picture are still amazing even on the new remastered blue ray version
I think the volron knew about a world like that but weren't The actual ones who could have made vger. It's probably mythical to them. A time long since gone to them
Ascended V'Ger would definitely be on a level comparable to those races, the chances of some sort of encounter would be quite high, especially with the Q
What about that ship that Discovery comes across that dies with all that information that basically makes the computer sentient. That thing too was collecting information for hundreds of thousands of years. Hell it could have come from the same race as V'ger.
I doubt Vger would even recognize a Q. They would be observing it with some interest but since Vger can only comprehend observable facts, the Q would be too abstract to even analyze. In fact, they wouldn’t even be noticeable unless they felt like interacting with a species. In my mind, they’d simply watch it and move on because it’s evolution is too linear to interest them. They would want to toy and spar with beings they are uncertain about but are entertained by as well.
Given the number of crossovers Star Trek had with Transformers I thought, when I first saw the movie, that the machine world that Voyager crashed on was Cybertron.
The earlier version of the transformers yes. It would make perfect sense before their civil war broke out. If Unicron was made by them , then vger would be possible. Though I think by the Time Autobots vs decetepicons happened that technology was long gone. Vger wanted to transcend that physical form as well. The tech that created vger was super old and ancient from a long lost world
Vger was not in part of the Borg. The voyager time line mentions the time points of The Borg but no mention of vger. The Borg came from a bio world that's different then vger s origins
I still hold that wherever Voyager popped out, it wasn't anywhere near the Milky Way. And whoever the artificial intelligences were, when they gave it that massive, massive ship to get home... that was basically their equivalent of giving a kid a tricycle and sending them on their way. As massive as it was, it was an idle construction they made on a WHIM. An afterthought. And any race or species that constructs something so huge, so vastly powerful as just basically a toy... should be met VERY carefully. My thought was that Voyager also popped out of the wormhole in the far distant past, and spent untold millennia traveling back across rhe wider universe beyond the Milky Way, to get home. And the massive energy cloud that it generated as it passed through the galaxy was just it's Deceleration Field, from having traveled through the void at speeds that probably would make the Borg short out with its impossibility. I never want Star Trek to have a ship just travel to some corner of the normal galaxy and find those Makers. They need to be beyond reach. Forever beyond reach. Leave them as the beings in the Beyond.
My headcanon on the cloud is that it's a massive sensor array which is its primary method of collecting data. It can operate at truly vast ranges and collect unimaginable amounts of information in comprehensive detail, allowing it to completely catalog an entire galaxy by merely passing through it. The digitizer is either its original information-gathering method later supplanted and made secondary by the more advanced and capable energy cloud sensor array, or simply a method of gathering samples to supplement the data from the long range sensor cloud.
If we go by the galactic time that civilization would have long been gone traveling for billions of years when it got to earth. They were older than the Borg and where long gone before the Borg came to be. The vger ship was to transcend the physical. We will never know where vger came from and what happened to it. As it should be
Decker mentions a worm hole but Time travel? Never brought up. To think that vger was able to travel to earth in just a few hundred years is something to give anyone pause.
I've never been a huge star trek fan, but I have to admit that watching all these videos on the lore and history of all these interstellar characters/beings is wonderfully terrifying.
I believe Shatner wrote a TNG novel where the Borg tried to assimilate Spock but it failed because he was already part if the collective from has mind meld with V'GER.
I recently played the story in STO with V’ger and the mirror universe version and even though it had some silly idea I still really enjoyed it and one of the best STO missions I’ve done
I love V'ger and really the story of the first film in general (despite its occasionally overly-long effects segments, beautiful as they are). Thank you very much for this episode! God be with you out there everybody. ✝️ :)
Caeliar was in the novel Lost Souls, the third book in the Star Trek: Destiny trilogy. But, in the Star Trek: Coda trilogy, it ends with the erasure of the Destiny timeline. Then in First Contact, when Picard attempts to use his knowledge of the Borg's creation to catch the Queen off-guard, she expresses ignorance of that timeline. Picard then speculates that the Borg have such a complex history that time-travel has basically manipulated their reality to such an extent that even they don't have a definitive origin any more.
V'ger will ever be one of my favorite entities in Star Trek. That's why I named my first STO Xbox captains so. Basing her as the grandchild of Ilia, Decker and some Unknown other Aliens and than the Mirror ark rolled around. I also like the idea that V'ger and the Borg are connected however I think the facts about the Borg ships and the V'ger ships maybe the other way around? I can't remember seeing V'ger before the redone SFX on ST TMP which came after STO but maybe I miss some designs that wherent implemented in Time but the Designers of STO had as a reference.😅
Ya know, I wonder what would happen if v-ger were to encounter something like itself. For example, a tardis. They’ve been known to be on similar, if not, the same, if not, more, levels of power. Due to the way they work, they’re 4 dimensional beings. Therefore, they can see literally everything in existence all at once. Imagine what would happen if something thirsting for knowledge met one of them. That would be interesting…
When Vger combined with Decker, it became a complete energy-based lifeform... It no longer needed the massive ship built for it, because it no longer was of any physical substance...
It could also have been the aliens from Strange New Worlds 2x05 "Charades". I mean they are certainly well intentioned about cleaning up their mistakes. But the seem to be about as good at fixing bodies as the Talosians - they just happened to have a comparable blueprint. I guess spock should be happy he did not get a sex change.
I (speculative) believe that only a small handful of races and beings could have challenged V'Ger. 1. The Iconians, and we don't know if they had contact or not. 2. The Whale Probe: In the books, Spock managed a mindmeld with the Whale Probe. He learned it was damaged by a battle with an unknown entity. Either the Borg, or even V'Ger could have damaged this. And in return, perhaps the hostility and its own damage was why V'Ger chose to regard biological entities as "inferior". The Whale Probe was much the same in its view, referring to biologicals like humans as "mites". 3. And this is the potentially WORST encounter. I think the Federation should be thankful Kirk stopped this menace. Could you imagine if V'Ger somehow was able to reason and to merge with the Nomad Probe???? Nomad was perhaps powerful enough to take V'Ger head on. These two merged (As Nomad itself was a merging of Nomad and the alien, Tan Ru Probe) and what would the galaxy get? An unimaginable threat with two powerful intelligences BOTH thinking organic life is best just exterminated, or as Nomad says "sterilized".
It would be interesting if Star Trek officially revisited V'ger one day, imagine if there was this mysterious, really powerful and hostile enemy from another universe (or something) that attacked the Federation and other galactic powers, it seems unstoppable and the greatest threat the galaxy has ever seen thus far. It's a no-win situation as this unknown enemy reaches the solar system... but just as all hope seems lost, V'ger suddenly appears and saves everyone., becoming, in a sense, Starfleet's secret "weapon" against such threats.
This happens in Star Trek online, except it's the mirror universe trying to take control of V'ger while the prime universe fed are trying to stop them 👍
@@exoticspeedefy7916 Yea you get an impressive shot of 2 "V'gers" taking up like all of existence with fleet ships zooming around. For a moment it feels like watching two gods about to fight.
Transformers gave voyager her upgrades, got it. Would like to think that there’s a parallel universe out there where voyager and conquerer become Primus and Unicron.
I wish the director's cut hadn't added that CGI that shows the whole thing without the cloud. Totally ruins the impression of V'ger being unimaginably vast and turns it into something that just looks like an alien ship of the week from Voyager or Enterprise.
Personally, I would like to believe that Vger didn’t encounter the Borg but instead actually after melding with Decker actually created the Borg in the first place, albeit after having first reverting to a much earlier point in time. It seems just like what would have resulted from merging Decker into something like Vger. Just an idea I've always thought was interesting, and actually would make a great story arch in a streaming series or film.
And wayy before The civil war started. Cybertron and The beings that lived there who could make vger were long since gone except for the occasional ruin holding ancient life forms who knew nothing of those beings. I think Unicron was made by them but he ain't talking
I never accepted the notion that V'Ger still ended up in Milky Way after going through the wormhole, specifically because Spock states that it has recorded information on entire galaxies. The only way this could be possible is if V'Ger left our galaxy, cruised around the universe for a while, then came back. It makes far more sense that V'Ger ended up in another galaxy, a very long time ago, then came back to the Milky Way, and on its way, it destroyed whole galaxies to record them. Of course, I also despise the whole V'Ger made the Borg thing, so maybe I'm biased.
Nah, I agree with you. The Borg in their wildest dreams could never make something like Vger. I imagine this machine race exists on a whole other plain of existence, the Borg would be like ants moving around grains of rice.
Could you do some Lore/Speculation videos on the Klingon Empire in the 25th century? One of my biggest Trek questions is what they do when they have a truly honorable, somewhat progressive Klingon in Martok? Is he the second coming of Gorkon or basically the latter had he lived longer? The Cardassians are devastated. The Borg have been driven back to the Delta Quadrant. The Romulans are now a Republic focused more on rebuilding their shattered society than conquest and therefore no longer any theat. They've been allied and at peace with the UFP, and particularly, humanity, for nearly a century, and together they're hailed as saviors of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants. Maybe a breakdown of Trek Online's Klingon campaigns, novels, and your own personal theories?
I mean, they said its possible that Voyager was thrown into the past, could have created the proto-borg, then left them like it said in the video, and they evolved on their own into todays borg we know. So that imples that V'ger no longer needed the proto-borg, and had evolved well past the need to have them.
Activision came up with it in one of their PC game. It's completely non canon, and is heavily contradictory with established canon, most notably the fact that the Borg had been active for a few centuries during the Vaadwaur era, in Earth 15th century, long before NASA and the Voyager probes program. However, a lot of people played Activision games as kids, and "learned" the erroneous idea about the Borg origin.
I know some didn't care for this movie. I suspect most had fresh memories of Star Wars and this was a completely different animal. For myself, I really enjoyed it. It scratched that inch.
They get transported into the computer like in Tron movie. I am unsure about the survival rate of biological units. But V'ger was able to make a robot out of the women.
I prefer the Borg/V'Ger connection in the Shatner.Reeve-Stevens return of Kirk books: the "machine planet" it landed on was a Borg world, so they're connected but V'Ger doesn't create the Borg.
The V'ger/Borg connection is easily dismissed due to the sheer scale of difference in abilities. V'ger collected information on a vast and incredible scale, while the Borg are frankly quite crude in their methods of gaining information. While Borg tech is advanced, it is of an understandable nature, being from organic populations. V'ger is just so far beyond it, the Borg were likely of no interest to it, let alone being linked in some way. As others have stated, the machine dimension we briefly see in Picard is far more likely to be the origin, especially since V'ger displays the ability to manipulate dimensional pockets and it's indifference/disdain for organic life.
@@TheRezro It's also possible the Borg witnessed V'gers travel through the galaxy and considered it the apex of technology and fashioned a ship in it's likeness.
@@TheRezro Unless it's listed in a canon source, such as the actual movie, then you cannot make flat-out factual assertions such as "V'Ger created the Borg." That's your fanon, but it's not supported by the canon sources.
Really surprised V'Ger and the Golden Disk avoided being used for the Transformers and Star Trek crossover miniseries. Wonder what Kirk would have done seeing the message Megatron left on V'Ger's Golden Disk.
That the Borg Unimatrices look so similar to V'Ger might be case of convergent evolution. Maybe the Borg are really unto something with their quest for perfection.
the original theatrical release and the home video cut of TMP had the cloud at "over 82 AU in diameter". It wasn't scaled down to 2 AU until the first DVD release.
Much like the Whale Probe, I think it's best that we never truly know the exact details of V'ger's origins other than Spock's descriptives in TMP. I do think it's an intriguing concept that a lesser self-sufficient V'ger may have created what became the Borg, unintentionally creating the greatest threat in Star Trek. In my own goofy non-canon explanation: The machine planet that Voyager-6 came across was none other than Cybertron. LOL!!
I wish they’d bring back enemies like v’ger, the doomsday machine, the space amoeba, in different or new iterations in newer series. That ancient enemy concept just works
If there's a vger borg connection then it has to be from after vger ascended out of reality, maybe vger stuck its head back into our universe in the distant past just to check on something and accidentally created the borg in the process, or accidentally did something that led to the birth of the borg or something like that.
It's interesting how much V'ger's journey mirrors Voyager's from the show. Transported accidentally to the Delta quadrant. Travelling home while exploring points of interest on the way. Arriving back significantly altered by the tech and knowledge it picked up along the way.
I'm also a fan of the "V'ger created/is the Borg" theory, but am glad it's not canon because of the "nobody knows" element that's somewhat necessary for the Borg to really feel like the threat they're meant to be.
As a creative myself, I understand why in the remasters they went in and upgraded and reimiplomented the originally intended design for V'ger. However having originally seen a theatrical cut on dvd, i do find that the more amorphous and concealed V'ger to have more impact- the sense of "this is so beyond our comprehension that we cant even properly see it" left quite the lasting impact on me. Despite seeing it for the first time on a portable dvd player with a screen no larger than 8x10 back in i want to say, 2007.
As for the plasma bolts...remember the Enterprise was an almost completely new ship...co.plete with new shielding for the time. And I believe the D7's of that era were older and their shielding not as advanced. It is possible VGER used the same yield torpedo as it had against the Klingons and Epsilon 9 station...but met its match. This could easily explain why Enterprise survived the first torpedo. Also, VGER didn't attempt real communications until after the first torpedo failed. Once Spock sent a compatible message, VGER responded by stopping the second torpedo and then later the probe.
Couple of errors pointed out!
1. Astrometric instead of Astronomical (A typo I must have corrected to the wrong term and not checked because it sounded right)
2. It has been mentioned that the Enterprise fended off a plasma bolt with 70% of its deflector shields, but I assumed this was a different projectile to the ones that struck the D7s based on colour although it could be that the plasma bolts also contain a method of communication.
3. It's size was also mentioned at 82 AU not 22, I have no idea why I noted 22 down.
4. No, I cannot pronounce Ilia, even in my own playthrough series I get it wrong moments after hearing it said to me, sorry 'bout that to anyone with the same name!
My only issue with Veger is that is where is why everyone thought it fell in a black hole? (I thought they said wormhole.) The problem with a black hole is that having one so close to earth would be problematic. Keep in mind that voyagers population is no longer functional, so they speed they are traveling at is their max velocities. Even if you add 500 years to their journey they still would not be close to the nearest star. So if even a small primordial black hole came that close to us it would likely strip off at least part of the ort cloud, and possibly a plannet or two.
At 82 au.....it could have taken a trilogy of "movie" time just to explore the ship. Lol 😂 even at 22 au.
@@jonthomson9262 we have series which are years long and are less than 1 au.
nasa launched voyager in 1977
@@FrozenKnight21They clearly say that it must have fallen into “what they used to call a black hole.” And you’re forgetting the ironclad rule of of sci-fi movie writers being fundamentally unable to grasp astronomical scales of size and distance.
V´ger - bringing Lovecraftian horror to Star Trek since 1979!
I know, right! I love Star Trek I because it's secretly a cosmic horror movie! Space is scary and terrifying, people melt in transporter beams, the Enterprise nearly gets obliterated by engine failure, and Earth is menaced by an almost unknowable alien entity.
@@DavidStarkZarkonnen Ia! Ia! Shubnigarth! It does sound like a Klingon dialect, doesn't it 😄
I recently revisited The Motion Picture after a couple of decades and came away with a much better impression than I used to have. The V'ger concept and Spock's eroded social skills were really engaging.
That movie was basically the original episode called THE CHANGELING.
@@RandyBaumery-s4i yeah, I think most Trek fans know this. Decent episode, but The Motion Picture really is a standout sci-fi flick, even beyond being a Trek movie.
@@illyth63 definitely the essence of good science fiction.
@@illyth63The Motion Picture took risks that most science fiction avoids these days. And I miss in more modern stuff.
I don’t think they were necessarily successful but at least they kept trying.
Wrath if Kahn is a masterpiece of a film but it’s basically a naval/piracy story in space.
A good sci-fi should periodically leave you wondering “what the fuck was that about?”
@@lifotheparty6195 Wrath of Khan is no Masterpiece - the plot is driven by uncharacteristic bad decisions of fan favorite characters. Kirk let down his crew by not following Starfleet General Order 12, to raise the shields as the Reliant approached without establishing communication. Spock was also on the bridge and not only should have reminded Kirk himself, but interrupted Savvik as she tried to remind him. Doctor McCoy failed to scan Checkov and Captain Terrell even after being told that Kahn put creatures in their bodies.
And finally, the offspring of the Brilliant Doctor Carol Marcus, and the Legendary Captain James T. Kirk was basically a throw away character. Easily captured and killed off in the following Movie by a few clumsy Klingons. Star Trek - The Motion Picture is the BEST film for the Original Series Cast and ALWAYS will be.
The technology on which V'ger is based is so advanced that it makes even the Borg look like cavemen. As for the evolution of V'ger, I've always had a theory. The only life form in the Star Trek Universe that is more evolved than V'ger is a Q. I always imagined that by the end of the movie, when V'ger disintegrates and disappears, it evolves into a new Q.
oh please any ascended being like hte organians are more powerful than v'ger.
The Iconians, The T'Kon Empire, Saurians have all displayed technology that surpassed that of The Borg and have displayed technical feats on at least the level of V'Ger. Q and other non-corporeal entities to varying degrees can literally manipulate reality. V'Ger posesses no technology that even remortely approaches this.
considering there is an implied connection between humanity and the Q, that doesnt seem that far off. maybe though, the Q are not evolved from V'ger, but V'ger is the Q Continuum itself, with the Q being avatar, living probes it creates as the highest possible level of data retrieval, probes sentient themselves and omnipotent.
I believe Decker and Ilea became the first Q, propagating forward and back in time.
@@rimasmuliolis1136 Nope, Q continuum is remnant of previous universe. Q stated, that when big bang occurred, they already existed. So Q is more likely like Galactus in Marvel. Fact is, that Q is Roddenberrys child. Gene was more philosophical sci-fi author, then scientific, in which TNG and whole ST franchise quickly evolved. For this type of authors is typical confrontation with God. Although in TOS and TAS were presented multiple god like beings, he decided to introduce true God into TNG. Power of Q has no limits. They are far superior to anything ST franchise ever presented, even Vger.
Rick. I'm guessing that you are aware of the Shatner novel 'The Return' from April 1997. In it Kirk is revived (following his death on Veridian 3) by the Borg as a possible replacement for Locutus and when on a mission to rescue Kirk, Spock gets past a Borg security scan because he registers as 'Borg' from his mind meld with V'Ger.
That entire concept is insane and way over the top. I love it
A very good read
That book is hiding somewhere in my house, which is appropriate since it has been largely forgotten. That was such a crazy reveal/twist.
I had a star trek book of timeline that Gene suggested that vger may have been a reprogram andxsent back by the Borg.. before they became the Borg from or interaction with Vger
There is no possible way V'ger was influenced by the Borg. If the Borg had the kind of power that V'ger had, there would have been no way the Federation survived a single cube.
Borg was created by V'Ger. Machine Federation by Humans.
@@TheRezro If that were true, then why is Humans designated "species 5618" by the collective instead of species 01? To use a random numbering list would not seem very efficient.
@@jonathandonley3299 Because V'Ger didn't know who are his creators.
@@TheRezroNo. However, I’m sure VGER downloaded Borg ships and planets .
V'ger was created in the Nekrit Expanse by accident when a borg sphere was cut off from the collective and the Voyager 6 probe was captured for it's parts. In doing so the Voyager 6 probe radio communication backfired and altered the borg nanoprobes programing to serve a new purpose..
As a younger person I was struck by how intensely the recipients of Voyager must have felt about the simple sort of rickety thing that it was. I believed that there was a deeply sentimental reaction to it's naked earnesty and intrepid nature even/especially as a very antiquated technological vehicle. I thought that the sheer size, power, capability and agency given to that probe was the measure of the intensity and positive sentimentality felt for what was in the original programming. It swelled my heart and I thought it was a very beautiful gesture and scifi idea.
Now, as an older person of 44, I think that the Voyager probe was recieved somewhat similarly as an extremely limited and truly physically vulnerable vehicle. Being that it was made simply and we had weight limitations to what we could launch into space it had to be a bit rickety to our preferred standards. I tend to suspect now that it was a terrifying upgrade to the probe based on a reaction of deeply held horror at the weakness of the vehicle versus how worthy it's programming seemed to be. It seems now as if "they" were sending it back to take over the probe's origin planet and upgrade all technology there by ten thouand years in one fell swoop. That is terrifying.
The Motion Picture is probably the truest Trek movie. In that it's just like the original show and the 4K rerelease is amazing
Yes. It is the ONLY pure science fiction Star Trek movie.
What I've always said. Wrath of Kahn is good, but it was the one that turned ST movies into just action space battles, instead of the (more or less) hard sci-fi exploration series the original series was.
I don't care much for the V'Ger/Borg connection theories, as they seem to really diminish the magnitude of V'Ger and erase too much of its mystery.
Same, I never understood people's desire to connect all machine based life to V'ger; why make the story telling potential of trek smaller?
Universe is way to big for everything to be connected. Plus the borg/v'ger connection never made sense as V'ger could easily make it's own probes to do what was needed, why rely on inferior cyborgs?
@@rueceless7580 Because that is what Roddenberry said. But Trek denialism is as old as cosmos.
@@TheRezro Got a source for that claim?
@@rueceless7580 Can't you read?
Can you?
"Because that is what Roddenberry said"
This is what you said, I'm asking for a source for that claim. Link to an Interview or what ever, if its true it shouldn't be that hard right?
Kelvin timeline vger is very chill. I hope it's thanks to prime Vger. Also I think Vger traveled the Universe not just our Galaxy as something of Vger's power would be spotted.
The galaxy is still very very very very big...
@@dupersuper1938 yeah but something like Vger is very powerful and would be very easy to detect. It's not like it's hiding it's power.
When did it show up in the Kelvin timeline??
@@BigJeremyBeyer it didn't. It was a comic appearance only. Nero used it like a universe sized calculator to know when Spock would appear through the red matter rift.
@@barrybend7189 Are you sure it was V'Ger and not just Borg Command Ship?
The original theatrical release states V'Ger's energy field was 82 AU in diameter, not 22 AU.
Try listening again and comprehending what he said this time.
You are correct, but the director's cut states that it is only 2 AUs in diameter, and both have it dissipating as it entered the solar system. Hence, different measurements.
@@LokiOdinson-fz8ps is the "he" you're talking about Rick in this video, or the Epsilon 9 officer in the original cut of the film? Because in the original cut, he absolutely says 82 AUs. No mistaking it for 22. The 22 figure might come from some Beta canon source, but it's definitely not from the original cut.
I agree, I saw the original at the cinema on opening week, it was definitely 82AU and confused me in later years hearing 2AU.
Most certainly he's always said 82 in the film's various versions.
ruclips.net/video/itHq3pLw6QI/видео.html
There is so much I didn't know about this movie and its lore. I saw it as a kid and it was just too much for my brain to handle. As an adult revisiting tmo, the lore is amazing.
To this day, I really enjoy the first movie. Yes, it can be long and sprawling, but the visuals of the cloud and V’ger, I could watch for hours.
I like how you don't drift in content, but still slip in your personality! Really enjoying all youre videos!
V'ger may be a low number entity in the borg database. Maybe something close to machine perfection in the collective's view. That may be why they imitate V'ger's form.
V'ger and the Whale probe are both just really fascinating to me. Just these huge mysterious objects moving thru space.
I always wanted to see a race or two of the Delta quadrant react to the Starship Voyager thinking it was somehow connected to V'ger.
i genuinely want to see where the whale probe came from... i mean that one probe basically wrecked the federation. and it was not even a blooddy weapon. it was essentially a probe to do a house call on whales... so we're talking a ancient alien race that has vested interest in whale life on earth. but are so powerful and technologically advanced that it can create something like that.
Oh yes that would be fun!
"Living Witness" is basically this. Though, nothing to do with V'Ger
@SillySnowFox lol I suppose you're right
The "Delta" quadrant - means most of Star Trek takes place in one section of this galaxy. That always blew my mind that they'd (as far as I know, which is like season 2 of Discovery) have not explored it fully - if even HALF of it.
The fact that Voyager never met the V'ger race or the Whale Probe race was a missed opportunity. We could have had that instead of yet another Naomi Wildman or holodeck episode.
I wouldn’t trust Voyager to pull off a concept like this very well. They rarely pulled off large scale intellectual concepts, and the times they used the Q it got really messy. They even overused the Borg and time travel by the end.
I don't think so. Not anything needs to be connected. The mystery of those entities is more fascinating that another preposterous callback just to make some nerd masturbate.
They could have found the planet that built the whale probe or V'ger. But the lifeforms there had moved to a new higher class of being. Voyager finds their home world and all it's advanced tech. They're ready to scavenge it only for the Borg to show up. To prevent the Borg from assimilating it Voyager finds a way to destroy the planet or its star.
@Davidsworldtravels Even before that, they used to discover stuff. Later they just asked 7 of 9 (Queen T&A) what the Borg called it
I now like the idea of that maintenance species existing, but they were *assimilated* by the Borg, which is where the Borg got that style, but they were already around.
Borg was created by V'Ger. Machine Federation is from the future. They are from Alpha Quadrant.
In unfinished scenes Kirk after he went to see where Spock ran off to is attacked by these tetrahedral objects that split off of V'ger. They all attach to Kirk and is almost smothered by them before Spock rescues him. Instead of Spock exploring alone V'ger's inner chambers, they were supposed to go together and see various machine drones performing tasks. I wish they had more money and time to properly finish the movie.
@@TheRezrono. The voyager time line paints a different picture. The Borg and vger didn't meet
@@vgernycI read that comic. It was different than the movie
@@yurikendal4868 I literally have no idea what you talking about?
It already was a thing in Beta canon.
The thing about V'ger is at least since I got kinda tired of the Borg, I thought a great solution to the Borg being there would be like, a massive Borg invasion fleet's bearing down on the Federation and then Voyager returns from higher planes to assimilate all of *them* :) Naughty Borg. :) :)
Many fans I know find them boring, but I loved the two scenes in ST:TMP where the Enterprise flies through the cloud and over V"Ger. I love the music for those scenes. Creepy and cool.
Valid. You must wonder where and how all this technological might came to be.
V'Ger. I love this entity. Its origin is unknown, other than what was given onscreen. Characters like that generate so many fan based theories it's wild. Also a fantastic use of imagination.
Totally agree, don’t like this need to explain everything. Imagination is the best script writer.
Great video though.
This is now apocrypha, but earlier released edits of the film, V-GER's cloud was measured at "over eighty AUs" across in size. This was stated by a Tactical officer aboard the Epsilon Station, just before V-GER "recorded" it. Later versions have since been reedited to change the size to something more managable.
Excellent analysis my friend. Ever since I first saw TMP as a kid, it was a task to try and,"assemble" Vger's layout in your mind. Which of course was inherently by design. I really appreciated your approach and I look forward to revisiting TMP with wiser eye's. 🤘🖖
Imagine you live on Hawaii and a random hamster washes up on your beach. You nurse it back to health and place it in a ball inside of a giant battleship the size of Oahu and then send it off to find it's way home. Now scale that up to a planetary scale.
That's how we got V'Ger.
As someone who lives in Hawaii: So true!
Plot twist... Star Trek universe is actually a "Dark Forest" type universe only Starfleet and all the others are not advanced enough to be noticed. Some really advanced race just off handedly armed somebody's probe and sent it back home, like "not old enough..but when it arrives they will be riped for dealing with.".
@@DreamskyDance I. Fucking. HATE! The dark forest concept. It's overly cynical and intellectually vapid and lazy which makes it deeply appealing to edgelords and easy shocked normies alike.
I reject the notion that hatred and fear is so deeply coded into all life regardless of the myriad evolutionary or sociological variables across hundreds or thousands of planet. And if I'm wrong about it I'd much rather be wiped out and spared from such a miserable existence than have to live in constant fear of my neighbors.
@@Raso719 Yeah, completely agree infact you basically stated it like i do :D
I was just presenting a funny plot twist postulate, i dont support dark forest concept.
And everything you said is completely valid. Dark forest is nihilistic regurgitation with new words.
And in the off chance that it is true, if all is just dark and hateful universe, it is better to live delusionaly believing that there is light than to make peace and live in * that *.
Great episode! I always consider VGER as NOMAD'S bigger brother.
Also related to sphere...
So Iconic my friends. Thanks.
That 3D model was great!
Still to this day, ST:TMP is one of _the finest pure sci-fi films_ ever made. It is so sad & pathetic that in today's age of incredible CGI and unlimited ability to tell stories via film, writers are completely incapable of penning incredible stories like this one.
The story of TMP was originally intended of course, as the pilot for the sequel Star Trek TV series - and was written by Alan Dean Foster. A talented and prolific fantasy and SF author. You can see the influence as well, of when it was written - the 1970s were a period when "think piece" science fiction was surging both in print and in popular media. Star Trek Phase 2 (the series) was conceptualized as a more intellectual and challenging show than the original series. Foster wrote this script treatment outline with that ideal in mind.
The problem with most popular science fiction media today is that most of it is no longer written by anyone who actually writes sci-fi or fantasy. Or even reads them. Or cares about subjects like science. Because the value of screenwriting has diminished - it is seen as merely putting words into actors mouths to get the movie made. Most of the writers left who care about the craft or have any ideas for stories to tell, are not SF/fantasy writers. This is why we have, for example, a huge amount of money poured into Apple's Foundation series to pay for great actors and push vast production values - but the writer for the series doesn't even know what a lightyear means. And does not have any idea what a galaxy is... shaped like. Or how far apart stars are. Or what the speed of light means.
Of course, that writer and others like them deserve some blame themselves for treating their subject carelessly - they could have taken one evening to educate themselves for free on Wikipedia or dozens of popular astronomy websites.
@@bluedotdinosaurYou’ve never met a writer have you.
I'd count Annihilation as an excellent (albeit extremely tonally different) relatively recent pure sci-fi film.
Good stories arent written and made by Quarterly Profit. We need to return to the times before the nonsense that is our modern economy. It is kind of ironic that ST is itself satire against capitalism and what COULD BE if we abandoned the forced scarcity society we are now oppressed under.
@@GoldenPantaloonsAnnihilation's amazing! Arrival's pretty good too.
In a video game "Star Trek: Legacy" V'ger created the Borg to expedite its amassing of information. People don't consider this game canon but with ALL actors reprising their roles as captains, that is pretty darn close.
V'ger wasn't defeated.
Nothing defeats V'ger.
Quiet correct. The movie makes That abundantly clear
Oh come on i was just thinking that Vager is The Most Powerful Entity in Star Trek Lore and i would love to animated Vager and The Whale Peobe encountering each other now this drops lol.
Respect and keep up the epic work.
Most powerful entity? A single Q could literally snap it away...
@@dupersuper1938 Seeming that they are scared of The Borg and that is why they don't mess with them i doubt they would mess with Vager who arguably is way more powerful then The Borg.
Add in the Doomsday Machine
@@ShakaarGaleed Oh yeah, the tinfoil cone lol, Last seen trying to travel faster than warp 9.999999999999999999, It was in a Star Trek Book i read Years ago, it was TNG, the enterprise encountered the Doomsday machine, I wish i could remember the book better, but my brain is full of holes lol.
@@nadiamond Probably "Doomsday World" by a collaboration of some of the better TNG book writers, such as Peter David.
V'ger is among the coolest things in Trek!
Would be neat to see more of V'ger but also I suspect it would end up subtracting from what makes V'ger so interesting.
And if I had to take a guess at who repaired V'ger it would be the two robot factions in a perpetual war from Voyager.
I could see their AI being simple enough as not to see V'ger as just a tool but a being such as themselves.
That was postulated to be Cybertron before the civil war broke out. Cybertron was a vastly different world before any current varient. So different that none of it's current inhabitants know anything about that era but in brief mythical flash backs with crumbling remnants of that world making occasional but incomplete appearances. Only Unicron would know about them and he has no plans on spilling those beans
In my personal head cannon once V'GER joined with Decker the human need to procreate made them create the Q . That is how the Q know so much and are so powerful. They are the children of V'GER and have all of V'GER's knowledge.
What is actually quite probable. I always suspected Q to be possible machines protection T'Kon Transwarp Gate network. On top of that there is clear paralel to Prophets of Bajor, who may be actually Q.
That would also explain why Q seems to have such an interest in guiding and interacting with humans.
There was a beta canon comic that shows Q witnessing the birth of the entity that Decker-Illia-V'Ger created by the fusion and he separates them because the fusion didn't bring them into a true union or focus, and Q lectures and gives lessons to Decker about the weight of god-like power and ability, and when to and not to use them. He reintegrates them afterwards as their intended form but much more unified than they were. From that point though, Q takes an interest in Earth and observes it more closely
@@EagleTempest Lot of Trek lore sill is a mystery. The major thing is that Machine Federation exist beyond time. It is commonly matter of debate if something is the same or separate?
And there is nothing wrong in that. Good example of that is TNG episode with Iconia. For most of the episode he is telling Iconian legend of great empire. But on the end he conclude that others see them as tyrants.
Same is true in many of those cases. We hear more a legend (STO is holonovel) then strictly what did happen. But there is also clearly a bigger narrative there. I like that.
Ok. I must say that. Last SNW episode where wormhole alians turn Spoke into human. Those clearly are not aliens from Ruins! It was clearly a T'Kon transwarp gate similar to Celestial Temple.
Those aliens straight talk like annoying automated consumer service. They are machines! And another fun detail is that they refer to themselves as Blue and Yellow. Who could use those distinct colors I ask🤔(Starfleet Divisions🤫)
I think it would be cool to revisit this story, have Vger come back and have a reason to interact with humans again. Maybe have a copy of the original Enterprise and crew from the motion picture, and have them work with a modern crew, or future crew, to solve some kind of existential crisis. Maybe they can travel back to the 90s and save a Furbie
There was a rejected script for season 1 of TNG where Commander Decker would appear on the Ent-D's bridge in a Q-style flash of light. Complications ensue.
@@benrussell-gough1201that was done in 2010 ten odyssey. It was just perfect
The first Trek movie is my favourite. It has it;s problems, but it felt much less like a TV episode than the others, and it has a far grander concept. V'Ger really is huge and alien beyond human comprehension. It's very clever the way th emovie gives us an extended flyby of the enormous Enteprise, but later we see it reduced to almost invisibly small again V'Ger's ship. That ship is a stunning design - it's extremely alien and inhuman lacking any sort of comforting familiarity in it's design.
You just hit my main beef with Generations. Felt more like a TV two-parter.
"it felt much less like a TV episode than the others."
Well, after TMP was considered by the studio to have been "too expensive," they gave the Star Trek movies to Paramount's television crews. Harve Bennett, the producer on Star Trek 2 - 5, was best known before as being the producer for the Six Million Dollar Man and The Bionic Woman.
I absolutely LOVE Star Trek the Motion Picture. The only one I love more is Wrath of Khan. I love STtMP especially because of the well written story and the reveal of Vger being Voyager 6 and having attained sentience. Especially given the relative "youth" of the science fiction genre.
This is the equivalent of an archaeologist eating an artifact as soon as they find it.
The design of vger reminds me of vorlon tech from babylon 5 the visual effect from the motion picture are still amazing even on the new remastered blue ray version
I think the volron knew about a world like that but weren't The actual ones who could have made vger. It's probably mythical to them. A time long since gone to them
Thank you Rick, I always wonder if Vger ever had run ins with the higher power civilizations like the Organians Metrons or Q
Ascended V'Ger would definitely be on a level comparable to those races, the chances of some sort of encounter would be quite high, especially with the Q
Or is it one of those races prior to it's ascended phase?
What about that ship that Discovery comes across that dies with all that information that basically makes the computer sentient. That thing too was collecting information for hundreds of thousands of years. Hell it could have come from the same race as V'ger.
I doubt Vger would even recognize a Q. They would be observing it with some interest but since Vger can only comprehend observable facts, the Q would be too abstract to even analyze. In fact, they wouldn’t even be noticeable unless they felt like interacting with a species. In my mind, they’d simply watch it and move on because it’s evolution is too linear to interest them. They would want to toy and spar with beings they are uncertain about but are entertained by as well.
Given the number of crossovers Star Trek had with Transformers I thought, when I first saw the movie, that the machine world that Voyager crashed on was Cybertron.
The earlier version of the transformers yes. It would make perfect sense before their civil war broke out. If Unicron was made by them , then vger would be possible. Though I think by the Time Autobots vs decetepicons happened that technology was long gone. Vger wanted to transcend that physical form as well. The tech that created vger was super old and ancient from a long lost world
Very informative! I had no idea STO has a mission where you interact with V'Ger.
It's one of the newest story arcs in STO
As well as the mirror counterpart: C'Qer
@@eyo8766that's freighting to think that there is more then one civilization that could produce such horrors as vger
Been waiting for this one for a long time.
I'd love a video someday that runs down all the various Borg origins that have been put out over the years (V'GER, that manga chapter, etc)
Vger was not in part of the Borg. The voyager time line mentions the time points of The Borg but no mention of vger. The Borg came from a bio world that's different then vger s origins
I still hold that wherever Voyager popped out, it wasn't anywhere near the Milky Way. And whoever the artificial intelligences were, when they gave it that massive, massive ship to get home... that was basically their equivalent of giving a kid a tricycle and sending them on their way.
As massive as it was, it was an idle construction they made on a WHIM. An afterthought. And any race or species that constructs something so huge, so vastly powerful as just basically a toy... should be met VERY carefully.
My thought was that Voyager also popped out of the wormhole in the far distant past, and spent untold millennia traveling back across rhe wider universe beyond the Milky Way, to get home.
And the massive energy cloud that it generated as it passed through the galaxy was just it's Deceleration Field, from having traveled through the void at speeds that probably would make the Borg short out with its impossibility.
I never want Star Trek to have a ship just travel to some corner of the normal galaxy and find those Makers. They need to be beyond reach. Forever beyond reach. Leave them as the beings in the Beyond.
My headcanon on the cloud is that it's a massive sensor array which is its primary method of collecting data. It can operate at truly vast ranges and collect unimaginable amounts of information in comprehensive detail, allowing it to completely catalog an entire galaxy by merely passing through it. The digitizer is either its original information-gathering method later supplanted and made secondary by the more advanced and capable energy cloud sensor array, or simply a method of gathering samples to supplement the data from the long range sensor cloud.
If we go by the galactic time that civilization would have long been gone traveling for billions of years when it got to earth. They were older than the Borg and where long gone before the Borg came to be. The vger ship was to transcend the physical. We will never know where vger came from and what happened to it. As it should be
Decker mentions a worm hole but Time travel? Never brought up. To think that vger was able to travel to earth in just a few hundred years is something to give anyone pause.
@yurikendal4868 agreed. As it should be. Forever a mystery, and one who's scope could be terrifying in nature.
I've never been a huge star trek fan, but I have to admit that watching all these videos on the lore and history of all these interstellar characters/beings is wonderfully terrifying.
I believe Shatner wrote a TNG novel where the Borg tried to assimilate Spock but it failed because he was already part if the collective from has mind meld with V'GER.
I recently played the story in STO with V’ger and the mirror universe version and even though it had some silly idea I still really enjoyed it and one of the best STO missions I’ve done
I liked it.
When was VGER added to STO? Haven't played that game for a few years now, maybe i should have another visit...
I don't like linking V'Ger and the Borg (or the Q). It's a big galaxy. Everything doesn't have to be linked.
Those thing are and always were. Blame Niven.
I love V'ger and really the story of the first film in general (despite its occasionally overly-long effects segments, beautiful as they are). Thank you very much for this episode!
God be with you out there everybody. ✝️ :)
Caeliar was in the novel Lost Souls, the third book in the Star Trek: Destiny trilogy. But, in the Star Trek: Coda trilogy, it ends with the erasure of the Destiny timeline. Then in First Contact, when Picard attempts to use his knowledge of the Borg's creation to catch the Queen off-guard, she expresses ignorance of that timeline. Picard then speculates that the Borg have such a complex history that time-travel has basically manipulated their reality to such an extent that even they don't have a definitive origin any more.
A twelfth power energy field...
TWELFTH POWER???!!!
V'ger will ever be one of my favorite entities in Star Trek. That's why I named my first STO Xbox captains so. Basing her as the grandchild of Ilia, Decker and some Unknown other Aliens and than the Mirror ark rolled around. I also like the idea that V'ger and the Borg are connected however I think the facts about the Borg ships and the V'ger ships maybe the other way around? I can't remember seeing V'ger before the redone SFX on ST TMP which came after STO but maybe I miss some designs that wherent implemented in Time but the Designers of STO had as a reference.😅
V'ger has always been my favorite Trek antagonist.
Ya know, I wonder what would happen if v-ger were to encounter something like itself. For example, a tardis.
They’ve been known to be on similar, if not, the same, if not, more, levels of power.
Due to the way they work, they’re 4 dimensional beings.
Therefore, they can see literally everything in existence all at once. Imagine what would happen if something thirsting for knowledge met one of them. That would be interesting…
STAR TREK LEGACY was a f****** good game I'm surprised Xbox doesn't have it so you can download it
When Vger combined with Decker, it became a complete energy-based lifeform... It no longer needed the massive ship built for it, because it no longer was of any physical substance...
Bingo! Hence it wouldn't bother creating the Borg
It could also have been the aliens from Strange New Worlds 2x05 "Charades".
I mean they are certainly well intentioned about cleaning up their mistakes. But the seem to be about as good at fixing bodies as the Talosians - they just happened to have a comparable blueprint. I guess spock should be happy he did not get a sex change.
I (speculative) believe that only a small handful of races and beings could have challenged V'Ger.
1. The Iconians, and we don't know if they had contact or not.
2. The Whale Probe: In the books, Spock managed a mindmeld with the Whale Probe. He learned it was damaged by a battle with an unknown entity. Either the Borg, or even V'Ger could have damaged this. And in return, perhaps the hostility and its own damage was why V'Ger chose to regard biological entities as "inferior". The Whale Probe was much the same in its view, referring to biologicals like humans as "mites".
3. And this is the potentially WORST encounter. I think the Federation should be thankful Kirk stopped this menace. Could you imagine if V'Ger somehow was able to reason and to merge with the Nomad Probe???? Nomad was perhaps powerful enough to take V'Ger head on. These two merged (As Nomad itself was a merging of Nomad and the alien, Tan Ru Probe) and what would the galaxy get? An unimaginable threat with two powerful intelligences BOTH thinking organic life is best just exterminated, or as Nomad says "sterilized".
V'ger seems a lot like an Ian M. Banks Culture style vessel.
I'm thinking Gray Area.
It pretty much is a GCU, yes. That would be a *very* apt description, except actually impressively even more insane than a culture vessel
It would be interesting if Star Trek officially revisited V'ger one day, imagine if there was this mysterious, really powerful and hostile enemy from another universe (or something) that attacked the Federation and other galactic powers, it seems unstoppable and the greatest threat the galaxy has ever seen thus far. It's a no-win situation as this unknown enemy reaches the solar system... but just as all hope seems lost, V'ger suddenly appears and saves everyone., becoming, in a sense, Starfleet's secret "weapon" against such threats.
This happens in Star Trek online, except it's the mirror universe trying to take control of V'ger while the prime universe fed are trying to stop them 👍
@@exoticspeedefy7916 Yea you get an impressive shot of 2 "V'gers" taking up like all of existence with fleet ships zooming around.
For a moment it feels like watching two gods about to fight.
Finally, I figure out V'ger storyline. Thanks lot 😊
Thank you for making this video!
Transformers gave voyager her upgrades, got it. Would like to think that there’s a parallel universe out there where voyager and conquerer become Primus and Unicron.
It's... life, Jim. But not as we know it. Not as we know it. It's life, Jim. But not as we know it. Not as we know it.
know
@@dupersuper1938 Ops, thanks. Corrected.
There's Klingons on the Starboard Bow, Starboard Bow, Starboard Bow. There's Klingons on the Starboard Bow. Scrape em off Jim.
Staaaar Trekkin' across the universe! Boldly going forward but we still can't find reverse!
I wish the director's cut hadn't added that CGI that shows the whole thing without the cloud. Totally ruins the impression of V'ger being unimaginably vast and turns it into something that just looks like an alien ship of the week from Voyager or Enterprise.
In space "vast" is relative.
Trekker here. This is truly Gene Roddenberry Star Trek 🌟 😊
Personally, I would like to believe that Vger didn’t encounter the Borg but instead actually after melding with Decker actually created the Borg in the first place, albeit after having first reverting to a much earlier point in time. It seems just like what would have resulted from merging Decker into something like Vger. Just an idea I've always thought was interesting, and actually would make a great story arch in a streaming series or film.
No. Vger didn't interact or create the Borg. Voyager time line points this out
@@yurikendal4868 🙄
I hoped V'Ger would return in the upcoming Star Trek Legacy TV show.
"Machine Planet."
You mean Cybertron. =P
And wayy before The civil war started. Cybertron and The beings that lived there who could make vger were long since gone except for the occasional ruin holding ancient life forms who knew nothing of those beings. I think Unicron was made by them but he ain't talking
V'Ger is Star Trek's Brainiac: record and destroy everything it comes across.
Lol, that may be more literal then you think. Trek has crossovers with Marvel and DC.
I still like the theory that Voyager landed in a pre-civil war Cybertron.
I never accepted the notion that V'Ger still ended up in Milky Way after going through the wormhole, specifically because Spock states that it has recorded information on entire galaxies. The only way this could be possible is if V'Ger left our galaxy, cruised around the universe for a while, then came back.
It makes far more sense that V'Ger ended up in another galaxy, a very long time ago, then came back to the Milky Way, and on its way, it destroyed whole galaxies to record them.
Of course, I also despise the whole V'Ger made the Borg thing, so maybe I'm biased.
Nah, I agree with you. The Borg in their wildest dreams could never make something like Vger. I imagine this machine race exists on a whole other plain of existence, the Borg would be like ants moving around grains of rice.
Could you do some Lore/Speculation videos on the Klingon Empire in the 25th century?
One of my biggest Trek questions is what they do when they have a truly honorable, somewhat progressive Klingon in Martok? Is he the second coming of Gorkon or basically the latter had he lived longer?
The Cardassians are devastated. The Borg have been driven back to the Delta Quadrant. The Romulans are now a Republic focused more on rebuilding their shattered society than conquest and therefore no longer any theat. They've been allied and at peace with the UFP, and particularly, humanity, for nearly a century, and together they're hailed as saviors of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants.
Maybe a breakdown of Trek Online's Klingon campaigns, novels, and your own personal theories?
Never understood why fans tied V'ger to Borg. V'ger is above Borg as the Borg are above the Federation in her infancy.
I mean, they said its possible that Voyager was thrown into the past, could have created the proto-borg, then left them like it said in the video, and they evolved on their own into todays borg we know. So that imples that V'ger no longer needed the proto-borg, and had evolved well past the need to have them.
Activision came up with it in one of their PC game. It's completely non canon, and is heavily contradictory with established canon, most notably the fact that the Borg had been active for a few centuries during the Vaadwaur era, in Earth 15th century, long before NASA and the Voyager probes program.
However, a lot of people played Activision games as kids, and "learned" the erroneous idea about the Borg origin.
@@marc-antoinegagne2951voyager cleared That time line up in one of it's episodes. No mention of vger was ever brought up after stmp
watching the video... ok , cool.
Then all of a sudden: wait, there is TWO of them!?!
Oh no.
That's V'Ger and its mirror universe counterpart, C'Qer, from the end of Star Trek Online's recent storyline.
I know some didn't care for this movie. I suspect most had fresh memories of Star Wars and
this was a completely different animal. For myself, I really enjoyed it. It scratched that inch.
Actually caught one right at upload, noice!
We actually see V'gers assimilation process when the 3 Klingon ships disappear in TMP. Definately different from Borg.
They get transported into the computer like in Tron movie. I am unsure about the survival rate of biological units. But V'ger was able to make a robot out of the women.
I prefer the Borg/V'Ger connection in the Shatner.Reeve-Stevens return of Kirk books: the "machine planet" it landed on was a Borg world, so they're connected but V'Ger doesn't create the Borg.
The Motion Picture is my fave Trek film.
The V'ger/Borg connection is easily dismissed due to the sheer scale of difference in abilities. V'ger collected information on a vast and incredible scale, while the Borg are frankly quite crude in their methods of gaining information. While Borg tech is advanced, it is of an understandable nature, being from organic populations.
V'ger is just so far beyond it, the Borg were likely of no interest to it, let alone being linked in some way. As others have stated, the machine dimension we briefly see in Picard is far more likely to be the origin, especially since V'ger displays the ability to manipulate dimensional pockets and it's indifference/disdain for organic life.
V'Ger created Borg. They were lesser form. Google Borg Command Ship.
@@TheRezro It's also possible the Borg witnessed V'gers travel through the galaxy and considered it the apex of technology and fashioned a ship in it's likeness.
@@TheRezro The Borg Command Ship is non-canon, like youtube comments are non-canon.
@@ianwestc More things are not canon, then people think. In case of Trek it is dumbest argument ever.
@@TheRezro Unless it's listed in a canon source, such as the actual movie, then you cannot make flat-out factual assertions such as "V'Ger created the Borg." That's your fanon, but it's not supported by the canon sources.
Really surprised V'Ger and the Golden Disk avoided being used for the Transformers and Star Trek crossover miniseries. Wonder what Kirk would have done seeing the message Megatron left on V'Ger's Golden Disk.
Fun fact. Both Transformers and Star Trek have crossovers with Marvel.
@@TheRezro marvel crossed over with everything back in teh day
@@joeswanson733 What funny lot of that can be canon on multiverse level.
The entire flyby sequence in TMP confused the hell out of me. I had no idea it was even a ship. Just some big thing inside a space cloud.
I like stuff like this, as well as the Doomsday Device and the Whale Probe
Q's parents once gave him V'Ger as a toy but he quickly grew bored with it and cast it back out into space.
What happened to V'ger when it encountered Conquerer/Seeker? Is there any source material on this I can look up?
That the Borg Unimatrices look so similar to V'Ger might be case of convergent evolution.
Maybe the Borg are really unto something with their quest for perfection.
🙄 how is it similar
@@yzdatabase4175 Google Borg Command Ship
the original theatrical release and the home video cut of TMP had the cloud at "over 82 AU in diameter". It wasn't scaled down to 2 AU until the first DVD release.
Much like the Whale Probe, I think it's best that we never truly know the exact details of V'ger's origins other than Spock's descriptives in TMP. I do think it's an intriguing concept that a lesser self-sufficient V'ger may have created what became the Borg, unintentionally creating the greatest threat in Star Trek. In my own goofy non-canon explanation: The machine planet that Voyager-6 came across was none other than Cybertron. LOL!!
I wish they’d bring back enemies like v’ger, the doomsday machine, the space amoeba, in different or new iterations in newer series. That ancient enemy concept just works
If there's a vger borg connection then it has to be from after vger ascended out of reality, maybe vger stuck its head back into our universe in the distant past just to check on something and accidentally created the borg in the process, or accidentally did something that led to the birth of the borg or something like that.
One thing about V’ger. By directive of it's original programming and the obvious desire of Decker, one day it's coming home to report what its learned
Hi Cert, I love that Thumbnail 👍. Skinnier, then i thought,lol.
It's interesting how much V'ger's journey mirrors Voyager's from the show. Transported accidentally to the Delta quadrant. Travelling home while exploring points of interest on the way. Arriving back significantly altered by the tech and knowledge it picked up along the way.
I'm also a fan of the "V'ger created/is the Borg" theory, but am glad it's not canon because of the "nobody knows" element that's somewhat necessary for the Borg to really feel like the threat they're meant to be.
My head canon is still that it landed on cybertron, seeing as voyager 2 ended up there in the beast wars cartoon
The most Trek Trek movie.
As a creative myself, I understand why in the remasters they went in and upgraded and reimiplomented the originally intended design for V'ger.
However having originally seen a theatrical cut on dvd, i do find that the more amorphous and concealed V'ger to have more impact- the sense of "this is so beyond our comprehension that we cant even properly see it" left quite the lasting impact on me.
Despite seeing it for the first time on a portable dvd player with a screen no larger than 8x10 back in i want to say, 2007.
As for the plasma bolts...remember the Enterprise was an almost completely new ship...co.plete with new shielding for the time. And I believe the D7's of that era were older and their shielding not as advanced. It is possible VGER used the same yield torpedo as it had against the Klingons and Epsilon 9 station...but met its match. This could easily explain why Enterprise survived the first torpedo. Also, VGER didn't attempt real communications until after the first torpedo failed. Once Spock sent a compatible message, VGER responded by stopping the second torpedo and then later the probe.
So V'ger must have assimilated a TARDIS at some point, if it uses transdimensional engineering to create a pocket universe for storage.
Well there was a Who/TNG crossover so it's technically possible!