The fact that bonding with Captain Decker was considered a new experience Vger hasn't even considered yet kinda disproves any Borg associated theories. You'd think this would already be an understood concept with as much as the Borg have experimented with their own cybernetic makeup.
There’s too many fans that love the borg so much that they can’t let little things like details stand in their way. I would have hoped that it’s only too obvious that the borg had nothing to do with the creation of ultra powerful V’ger. Likewise an ascended being such as the combined V’ger/Decker wouldn’t bother with traveling through time and creating something so crude as the borg.
Another theory might be that they *are* the Borg [V'Ger itself is Starfleet contact w Borg,] meaning later arrivals to Sector 0001, like that Whalesong starship, because all Voyagers had recordings of the Golden Record. So after V'Ger tried to receive more Cloneslaves, the next vessel wanted our whales and aquatics probably, and so on. Whoever designed them, actually designed them for galactic defense purposes a long time ago. It's sort of a beat the system asap paradox. (My emphasis.)
All Borg theories are instantly disproven by Star Trek's own canon. In First Contact the Borg queen states quite clearly that her species used to be exactly like humans but then chose to 'evolve' by using cybernetic implants. Its literally impossible for all V'ger related theories to have any truth to them.
I think of the Borg as something akin to the Reapers from Mass Effect. Some ancient alien race, thousands upon thousands of years ago, created something to serve a task. That thing grew and evolved to the point where it engulfed its own creators within that task, then survived through the millennia, becoming a race in and of itself. Its creation, at that point, is irrelevant. Its creators, long dead to the point of being well and truly erased from the universe. Nothing can be said about them now, only of their creation.
I'd prefer for the Borg to have been an accidental outcome for a race like the Bynars. They tried to upgrade themselves and got carried away losing their identity in the process. Similar to how Star Trek genetic engineering always leads to evil.
It's easy to imagine how this could have happened too. Cybernetics are a tempting field, even if only for medical purposes. And once established, some will take it further, "upgrading" themselves with certain additions - better eyes, digital memory storage, wireless communication and data exchange, etc. Add to that a new medical discovery in the form of "primitive" nano probes and you have the core concept in place. Some malfunction, virus or hacker attack could easily lead to the first "corrupted" individuals, the affliction spreading like wildfire across an unprepared mind network. Practically over night, a large portion of their population ends up either brain dead or entirely overwhelmed with the thousands of constantly open connections, creating the first collective.
@@PongoXBongo Or just good old "what could possibly go wrong?" like in War Games, Dreadnought, or pretty much half the episodes about the holodeck. Oh, or that one telepathic species that had "purified" their thoughts so much, they got addicted to violence overnight because B'Elanna was annoyed for a second. They just didn't realize how close they were to disaster until a tiny minor aspect pushed them over the edge.
Another idea: the race that eventually became the Borg had a schism of form, a disagreement on how to move forward. One group went on with cybernetics, and became the Borg we know. The other group embraced consciousness transfer and became wholly mechanical. This separatist group needs nothing but energy, and wanders the galaxy learning, and eventually created V'Ger. They also made the mobile repair platform from Enterprise, and the giant database probe from Discovery. Nothing substantiates this, I just like the idea.
To Be Honest, the author's theory doesn't work. The Borg created several hundred years ago (1482 A.D.) by V'Ger doesn't match up unless it fell into a Black Hole and sent it way far back in time. NASA Voyager 6 (Star Trek Universe) was lost sometime between 1979's movie and 2063 First Contact. So the more sound theory is yours and The Borg are no different than the Illyrians. A race of beings who create nanotechnology to perfect their Genome that went completely wrong and turned them into the monsters we know.
Machnie planet is actually the Earth from the future. They did have ulterior motive in repairing V'Ger as they most likely detect similarities in Voyager structure, they use it to also find own masters. Starfleet ships and computers always did have tendency of becoming self-aware and bit genocidal (Lower Deck make even joke about it). In fact sizable number of they probes are in Alpha-Beta quadrant like Edo God, etc. People may complain about new shows but they actually make good job hinting deep lore. I think I do not need explain is that Zora is clearly member of Machine Race? It is not coincidence that Control quoted Borg, Federation didn't even know at the time exits. Furthermore people forget that in Picard, Synths activated only subspace signal beacon. Destroying it would not cancel call, so robot squids pull by themselves (BTW one of shuttles in Discover also was attacked by squid drone) when Starfleet arrive on what they though was Picard emergancy call. For reminder beacon also act as jammer, so they in fact were called by temporally displaced beacon. Oh yes, and one another thing. Ships used by Synths have in fact same design as Section 31 ships. In fact Robot Squids were referenced as Machine Federation. They in fact were responsible for destruction of T'Kon (Ikon) Empire, what resulted with spreading proto-humanoids all over the Galaxy. It in fact explain why Guardians of Forever aka Ikonian Gates tend to act friendly toward Federation. It is clearly that they destroy own masters, for attempting to size time aka Temporal War. BTW Borg in fact do use Ikonian gate network. Janeway in fact destroyed one near Earth, preventing future Borg invasion. In Star Trek Online V'ger is straight considered as Borg command ship. It is all connected! BTW, Ring World is in fact canon in the Star Trek universe, as Lary Niven was one of Trek writers and he straight write in himself into the Trek lore.
Author Bruce Sterling imagined that humanity split into two factions, the Shapers and Mechanists. Shapers alter their DNA to gain superiority, Mechanists use mechanical means to achieve their dominance. He wrote some short stories about it, compiled in The Crystal Express, and also reprinted in his novel Schixmatrix Plus (the extra stores are the plus part). Its well worth the reading, Bruce did a wonderful job asking questions and examining future humanity.
I'm rather sad that Star Trek doesn't have more incomprehensible life forms and species out there. Everything is roughly the same tech level or just slightly more advanced. I love how in Babylon 5, there are races so old, and so advanced they are incomprehensible and are Giants in the playground, that don't even notice you are there. It adds a lot of wonder and puts you in your place.
Agreed - Although Trek does occasionally do technologically superior species to the Federation, for the most part, it either presents them as godlike (which for as powerful as the Vorlons and Shadows are presented, they're never presented as godlike), and/or are one-off encounters. Even outside of the First Ones in B5, there's a very clear power gap between humans and Minbari, where humanity isn't on the upper end of, and that feels nice compared to how human-centric the Trek universe sometimes feels (Even though the Federation is theoretically a multi-species alliance of equals and levelling of tech within it... The Federation-aligned vessels we follow in Trek are usually predominantly human crewed which frames the franchise more human-centric than ideal, IMO)
That tends to make for weak stories. If none of the main characters have any control over the situation or any power to affect events, then it's unlikely to be interesting in a series.
@@patrickmccurry1563 Opposite, imo - You usually get stronger stories from watching people struggle to deal with overwhelming situations, such as being technologically inferior, than people who have an advantage over the things that are opposing them, such as being technologically superior.
No. V'ger originated as the Voyager 6 probe, launched from Earth in the late 20th century. The Borg are known to have existed as early as the 15th century. This was established in the Voyager episode "Dragon's Teeth."
Spoilers for the end of S1 Picard, but could V’Ger have ended up in that Synth dimension? A random space fluctuation sent it there through the black hole/star and the synths learned of our reality, and sent V’Ger back as their probe into our universe? And from what data they obtained, like Species 8472 they decided eradication of organics in our universe was preferable. Just a theory…
@@gmradio2436 I’m not fully clear what you’re asking. From the machine’s perspective, V’Ger will have interacted with many organics, most who probably tried to attack (like the Klingons). And in a final terrible act, the creators of V’Ger regained their magnificent machine and…destroyed it (I mean, data transmission from ascension must be like the *worst* modem feedback in existence; and then it’s gone.) If you’re referring to 8472, I was just pointing to the parallels. As viewed (or experienced) from another dimension they tend to come to the most extreme conclusion for dealing with us. If instead you meant “why’d they send it to destroy us” they didn’t. My theory is they learned what little they could, then updated the probe and sent it back to do the same job we asked of it-only upgraded, protected, and provide data they collect. After all, we done know when the synth dimension turned Reaper on everyone. Just a theory…
@@gmradio2436 He's not saying it went to Species 8472 dimensions. He's saying the reaction of the Synth beings from Discovery's future universe (or from Picard's extragalactic Synths...which seem to have similar origins) had the same reaction to organics in our universe as Species 8472 had for our universe.
In ST:V, Captain Klaa shoots down the ancient Pioneer 10 probe. I love to think this is a callback to ST:MP in that if the Klingons would have intercepted and destroyed Voyager 6 earlier it would have ironically saved the Federation a lot of bother in the future.
Except Spock stays on Vulcan and achieves Kholinar. There’s no one to restart the engines and the Enterprise gets consumed by the Genesis explosion. Then earth gets drowned by the whale probe.
There was a Shatner book on it. Also a neat fan story about a senatorial debate for and against an augment bill, and the warning about what would inevitably happen.
I always thought that the BORG being the beings that created V'Ger from Voyager was sloppy at best. It just never made any sense. As we saw in the Star Trek movie V'Ger was near ascending to a higher plane of existence by the time it got back to Earth. If it had been the BORG of the time that created it they would have ascended themselves long before Q sent the Enterprise back to meet them. Indeed they would have had a much easier time as they already had organic brains and brain patterns. Also, if for some reason, they had chosen not to evolve as V'Ger did they would have been so advanced that they would have steamrolled every empire in the Alpha Quadrant without a pause if they even recognized the beings here as sentient. As Loki said "An ant has no quarrel with a boot."
It may be harder for the borg to ascend than v'ger, the borg would have millions of biological biasses in it's mainframe while the high level v'ger just needed a taste of imagination to expand upon, the bias of one individual not muddying the waters so much when the sole ingredient was added later and not from the start
4:40 It would have taken thousands of years for something launched in 1999 to reach to closest singularity, so it must have somehow gone back in time at some point in its voyage.
I remember watching this movie when it first came out and when the Borg were first introduced in tng as a kid. I never could imagine a way to integrate the two other than imagining that v'ger was the inspiration of perfection that the Borg have been striving for.
Nope, the branch of the Borg that were not aggressive were the ones that found it, saw it as a kindred spirit, gave it what it needed to complete its mission and sent it on its way. Not all of the Borg are Evil and V'Ger is a result. BTW - Spock is a member of the V'Ger branch of the Borg, this was covered in the novels.
Star Trek Enterprise with Captain Archer takes place before the time of Kirk. In season 2 episode 23 "Regeneration" they encounter an unknown species, the Borg. This takes place a long time before the Enterprise episodes and movies with Kirk. I find the theory interesting, but if you look at Star Trek Enterprise as lore, it can't be true.
This is covered in the novels, V'Ger was created by a benevolent branch of what is assumed to be the Borg, later confirmed by Spock. Spock was put into an Assimilation machine after being captured by the then "Borg/Romulan" alliance. Shortly after the machine was turned on ..... the machine shut itself down and apologized to him "Our apologies "Borg Spock" it said. And, the entire cube ignored anything he did after that. Spock surmised that his "Mend Meld" with V'Ger was his original assimilation.
It's also quite possible Voyager came in contact with the Machine planet as it was and became V'ger. And a young race with much to learn and just starting to explore space came in contact with the same Machine planet and thought it was the pinnacle of evolution and wanted to become like it, thus becoming the Borg.
I wonder if the newly added Thargoid Maelstroms in Elite: Dangerous took any inspiration from V'ger. They've been ominously approaching human civilization for months now, their energy wakes visible from hundreds of light-years away. The ones that have arrived now are completely shrouded in gigantic caustic storm clouds and use massively powerful energy pulses to prevent any ships from reaching the center of the clouds to see the( presumed) Thargoid Titans generating them.
I do not for one instant believe that V’Ger was responsible for creating the Borg. Plenty of nitwits might try to link them but encountering humans, and merging with Willard Decker was a new experience for it!
8:21 "...when it bonded with the human Captain WIll Decker, and gained the ability to experience emotion as well as construct thoughts beyond its logical limitations..." .Thoughts such as ild-chay olestation-may?
New theory this is the birth of Q Decker has now become the first Q. All Q are 4 dimensional, so they can interact throughout time and space, so once becoming Q, they expanded with more consciousnesses to Q. In a lot of ways, that bright flash at the end resembles a Q entering and exiting the Q are near-omnipotent. The ability could have formed from Overwhelming Knowledge, the power to see particles and know every path is theorised to be omnipotent. With Decker, it gained the potential to pluck the strings of time and space for fun which may Q seem to love. This also explains why Q is fascinated with Earth and Humans since we are related.
I always felt that they missed a perfect opportunity in the franchise to tie the origin of the Borg to V'Ger. It would make a lot of sense because Decker - a biological life form - merged with V'Ger the advanced machine. It would also work as a story driver too because it would mean that Starfleet, in a sense, actually created the Borg or at least facilitated its creation by melding Decker with V'Ger (via Ilia). But, as soon as they established much later in Star Trek lore that the Borg had been around for many centuries that made this origin story pretty much impossible unless, as you say, they utilize time travel (which I would hate for them to do in this case).
I'm commenting before I watch the whole thing so perhaps you mention this: The Vaadwaur knew of the Borg existing at least a thousand years before Voyager reawakened the Vaadwaur. According to them, they were still an established race at that time, so they came to be sometime prior to the year 1376. "Dragon's Teeth", VOY 6x07, proves that V'Ger had nothing to do with the Borg.
One thing that always annoyed me in terms of possible Borg-V’Ger connection is how similar V’Ger’s “ship” is to a Borg Unimatrix vessel. It’s not exactly the same, but gosh is it similar!
While I agree with you that I would prefer the origin of the Borg to remain a secret, on the other hand, I would like to know which theories are wrong.
There are quite a few sentient machines in ST that really need some closure.. So were NOMAD and V'Ger modified by the same machine species? What about the sentient machines from the end of season 1 Picard? They are pretty ominous... Then there's the android race from the TOS episode "What little girls are made of" That tech was all there for Star Fleet Intelligence (or more likely, Section 31) to study.. Finally, there's Discovery, with the sphere and now it made the ship a sentient AI?? It's a neat plot vehicle to be sure, but writers, please clean up after yourselves.
There's this pocketbook wherein old Spock was abducted by the Borg but he wasn't assimilated. It turned out that the Borg thinks that Spock has already been assimilated. There was a faint energy trace(?) in Spock that mistook him for already being in the Borg collective (just like a vaccinated person won't get sick in the presence of the virus) so assimilating old Spock would have been redundant and illogical. Spock has mind melded with V'ger in the movie is the reason as to why he wasn't been "reassimilated". Spock escaped by convincing a lone Borg drone to use a scout vessel in the pretense of convincing the Federation to be assimilated.
Even if V'ger created the Borg it wouldn't have discarded them. It would have reabsorbed them. V'ger is pure logic and to create something and then discard it is a waste of resources. It would have no reason to waste anything and would simply keep anything and everything it created as either energy or as a physical component.
I personally like to keep Vger and the Borg separate in terms of origin, because in implies that these great entities are solely the result of humanity's efforts to explore, and that severely limits the scope and scale of the universe that Star Trek is trying to portray.
@@Janoha17 Oh indeed. You could say that the borg at the time TRIED to assimilate Vger, but failed miserably, but did get some useful scans from the attempt...almost akin to Starfleet encountering the Narada in the Kelvin timeline.
I don't think I agree with this. I always felt like humanity's effort to explore was the main core theme of the show, almost to an absurd degree. Everything is very human centric, to the point where they basically are responsible for the creation of the Federation.
If the Borg and V'ger had some connection, why was V'ger unfamiliar with "carbon units" when every single Borg drone is built using a carbon unit as the base?
Well, we don't know the borgs' origin, and they may have started as Androids like Data and possibly that meeting vger is what started their tendancy for assimilation, possibly.
Well, while they weren't a machine race, but rather a highly advanced organic race, there was the Undine; aka Species 8472. The telepathic beings from "Fluidic Space" who wiped the floor with the Borg. So much so, that the Borg forged a shaky truce with Voyager's crew in order to eliminate the threat. That was where we lost Kes and gained Seven Of Nine.
I've always despised this theory because of how dumb it is. It is the ridiculous fantasies of fanboys desperately trying to connect everything in the Star Trek canon to everything else. Simply put, setting aside Einstein-Rosen and assuming V-Ger didn't travel through time during its wormhole trip, the Borg predate V-Ger by many, many years and even if V-Ger did encounter the Borg, they would never give it consciousness and a major upgrade far more advanced than what they would have been capable of even giving themselves at the time. It's simply not the Borg's modus operandi. At least they would ignore the Voyager probe due to its primitive technology and at most they would assimilate it. Also, 'machine race' doesn't necessarily refer to The Borg. They could be the Keylons for all we know.
Here here. It is the "everybody is cousins" trope that almost made Lost a parody of itself and is the biggest reason I cannot find any interest in the galactic family infighting that is Star Wars.
I always wondered what Starfleet/Federation learned from the massive download V'ger dropped onto Earths computers before it dissipated/evolved. Was this covered in a story somewhere?
They did start the Genesis Project and Transwarp experiments (which likely turned into the warp scale overhaul) shortly after. I wouldn't be surprised if those were connected.
Always thought there was no information download. V'Ger severed the connection prompting The Creator to touch it while repairing it. But that didn't triggered any download. Only The Merge process. Thus if anything, only Decker got a hold of the knowledge. Not the Human Race.
I think V'ger didn't create the Borg. I don't even think V'ger went through their space as it entered through Klingon space to a direct course of Earth. Meaning that V'ger entered the Orion arm from the galactic south.
our Galaxy is a disc, thus circular, very easy to go clock or counterclockwise along a long journey back to Earth, machines have no worry, no concern about the time it would take. I did like that it (along with the whale probe) seemed capable of "Neutralizing" even Klingon ships. I bet that actually bit Starfleet in the ass, as it probably made Klingons build more and more powerful ships due to the permanent loses to Vg'r. at least with the whale probe it appeared capable of restoring ships as it reversed course, of course most Klingon ships crews were probably already dead just from the whole honor thing and took their own lives instead of waiting to be rescued like puny humans. (or they died by life support, batteries running out) heh.
@@marvenlunn6086 yeah V'ger wanted to complete it's mission. But the approach vector was from the galactic south east through Klingon space. Not from the North east through Borg territory.
Honesty, I had discarded V'ger when first learning it as something stupidly massive and silly, but seeing the energy cloud in the recent STOSS video, uh, yeah.... It's not a machine. Not anymore. It's an eldritch machine God. And I kind of find that fascinating and terrifying at the same time.
@@gmradio2436 That's the thing about Cosmic Horror. It doesn't care about good or evil...or you, your Empire or Federation. Such things are miniscule and insignificant before it.
I don't agree with the VGer and Borg connections. Both are technological super beings, but both had entirely different directives. Borg Directive was "We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own." indicating that it needed to assimilate in order to evolve. VGer digitized and assimilate in order to learn and return to the creator.
I also like how V'Ger was made my human hands got lost then found by some rando Machines and sent back home... Which was then disgusted at the fact that it's creators desendents were not as tall as it wanted them to be. But then was convinced of what it really was gave Humanity more data then left again to find more. One of the most unique plots in scip-fi movies and worked great for the first Star Trek movie.
One major thing overlooked in the Kelvin timeline is that V'ger is still an impending problem. Their upgraded technology is still no match for that probe.
well that's if your goal is to shoot at the thing. Modern Trek has almost zero connection to roddenberrys vision of the future. star trek has become complete trash
@@monsterx3055 That's probably true about the the new shows, but the Kelvin timeline is canonically identical to the original for any event that happened prior to the Narada destroying the USS Kelvin. Voyager 6 becoming V'Ger is one of those events. I guess my point is that V'Ger was a really interesting adversary that was unfortunately stuck in a problematic movie. I wouldn't mind seeing it again in a better movie. But I agree that the chances of that are very low.
In the books which is considered apocrypha, the Borg are a corrupted form of life from a race called the Caeliar. It was grand story that incorporated the NX Columbia into it and explained how the Borg came about. It does though have a good bit of time travel involved. When the Borg were first introduced the Idea of this is where V'ger came from was an easy jump to make. Now though I highly doubt it.
Especially given the fact that the Federation are able to contend with the Borg a mere hundred years after this encounter. The V'ger vessel, on the other hand, is orders of magnitude more powerful, colossally more so than the Borg.
V’ger remains one of my favourite Star Trek mysteries. And I was sad to see that up until recently, it was never referenced. Love that you did a video on it!
What about the race of sentient AI that are seen in Picard the ones that try to come through a tear in space the race even the T'Kon tried to warn about. Could they have modified V'ger?
Awesome video man,I always wondered if veger was the precursor to the borg because of the last seen in Star Trek the motion picture.of course when that movie came out knew about the borg.Good explanations man
Personally this theory, while shiny, just requires too many hoops to jump through to fit. Instead I suspect the extradimensional machine race introduced in S1 of Picard to be the ones that repaired and upgraded V’ger
I believe you are confusing VEGER with the probe that was in "The Original Series" that did sterilize samples I believe VEGER merely scanned artifacts and not destroyed them but VEGER was More than capable of defending itself with the plasma disassembly weapon as seen used on the Klingon's and the deep space scanning array whom it interpreted its scanning as a attack. Once VEGER had merged of Decker it wasn't just it's Original probe that had merged it was the entire expanded vessel that was merged into a new lifeform. As for the whole Borg theory let's just suffice it to say there are Borg fan boys out there who can't leave well enough alone and the Less said about them the better off Star Trek is!!!
The writers said Vger did scan and destroy things as it traveled, remember.. it didn't just destroy the Klingons it destroyed the array as well and they did nothing to provoke it. All those things Spock sees as he passes through the aperture and reached Vger are things the probe scanned and destroyed.
@@DrewLSsix That's not entirely true. The Epsilon station was trying to scan V'ger and Branch states that those scans might've been interpreted as hostile. Kirk remembers this during initial contact, which buys the crew (and Spock in particular) a bit of time to sort things out.
There is a Star Trek novel in which addresses this question. Star Trek: The Return. A sequel to the movie and book Generations in which Spock having previously mind melded with V'ger is skipped as having already been assimilated.
In one Star Trek novel where Captain Kirk is resurrected back to life by the Romulans, Vger is Borg tech and since Spock mind-melded with Vger before, the Borg regarded Spock as one of them. This was one of the most bizarre Star-Trek novels ever written. This novel read like a fan-fic written by a Kirk fan-boy because the resurrected Kirk was able to outwit Data, outstrategize Picard, outbattle Worf in hand-to-hand combat and was pretty much kicking but left and right throughout the story. Then I looked at the author on the cover and it said “By William Shatner”.m
I've always thought an early Borg planet might have found the grossly inadequate Voyager probe and "nursed it back to health" like we might for an orphaned wild animal. We'll teach it to hunt but not let it harm us. Then we set it free to accomplish it's mission. I've always thought also that V'ger's merger with Decker and Ilea began the Q, instantly spanning the timeline. What better explains Q's obsession with Starfleet captains?
As J'kar said about the First Ones in Babylon V: They are a mystery. And I am both terrified and reassured to know that there are still wonders in the universe. In essence, V'ger is not too dissimilar to them: it is a being beyond human comprehension and with a power that we cannot possibly rival.
It is OG trek distilled: pure eldritch wonder, showing us that we have no true influence in its universe. Created by an absentminded 'just existing' kinda action, so bearing no intent nor care of its consequences. We do not even register as enough of a nuisance to bother picking up a flyswatter.
Borg? Nah, it was Unicron, who sent V'Ger out to scout for more yummy, yummy planets to devour. After all, he's competing with Galactus and there are only so many edible planets out there.
While watching Picard season I immediately felt that the ultra-powerful machine race outside of the galaxy fit the bill for V'Ger's upgrades perfectly. I don't know why nobody else ever seems to think this, since it almost seems like an obvious tie in that does _NOT_ involve the Borg, which never made much sense to me. Even V'Ger creating and abandoning the Borg is a stretch IMO. Much more interesting, I think also, to not link them; not everything has to be interconnected all the time, and having that be a link - potentially allowing for diplomacy - with the newly introduced, _very dangerous_ machine race has a lot of good, interesting potential.
Yeah because now we have to believe that throughout the entirety of the Trek Timeline from 2024, there was a separate faction of Borg that just managed to remain undetected not only from the mainline Borg, but every other major faction. Yeah, no. I'm calling bs on that. Picard is a hot mess. The whole plot of season 1 is just a cheap Mass Effect knock off, and it even lifted the shitty ending revelation of the Reapers' purpose.
IF V'eger had created the Borg, why would it discard them on a planet instead of digitizing them?? It has the capability of recreating the forms that digitizes, it may not have that capability if it does not digitize them. Why would it leave itself without the resource for the future?? I don't think it created the Borg....
I think the answer is in Picard season one. When the Romulans find the message meant for a synthetic life to protect itself from organics that would enslave them, we see a synthetic species. Or at least see one hinted at. I think it makes sense that, on the edge of the galaxy, there's this race of inorganic life we don't encounter, because Voyager doesn't reach the very end of the Delta quadrant. There's still parts unexplored by Voyager. This is where Veger is sent and this is why we haven't seen them. The Borg have nothing to do with it. I intend on eventually addressing the question of the Borg on my Chanel. I'm still a bit green for that.
I came here to see if someone would mention this before I commented and I was not disappointed. I actually thought ST Picard was specifically pointing at that with big red arrows, glad I'm not the only one. All these toxic fans acting like there was no lore behind the story line, like duh, how much did you think before you posted neck beards. Ed - There is lore behind everything, but trust Data, never Lore.
@@jamesbizs So, this is an interesting thing I've meant to talk about on my own channel. I get not caring for something. I'm not the biggest fan of Enterprise not do I really care for Lower Decks, but you know, these shows aren't made to cater to one audience. Watch what you like and maybe be glad those who like something else in the franchise get to have that. I may absolutely hate sit coms, but I really love that friends of mine enjoy it. And yeah, it's now cannot that things we don't like are in the show. But you know what? Like it or not, the tie up some loose ends in the series. If you want to stay ignorant of those things, do so. It's your choice and your right. But not liking something doesn't default make it bad. Just makes it not your tastes. Picard has some pacing issues and they break up couples for no damned reason, but so far, I'm glad I've seen it. Too bad on you to miss seeing enterprise D bridge again.
The Borg have a transwarp corridor opening just outside of Sol system. Could Voyager 6 have fallen through it? Then come out near the machine planet? Which leds to the bigger question: The Transwarp network itself. Who made it? The Borg don't create or invent things, they just "borrow" them from other species. With that as a fact, where did the TW network come from? Why did it only connect to certain parts of the galaxy? And why couldn't the Borg send more than one ship through it at a time - with the opening near earth, they could have sent 100 cubes and conquered the Federation in a day. My guess is that the transwarp network was the creation of some other advanced species (tying into this video, maybe the machine planet Voyager 6 found either built it or was the control hub / maintenance facility that whomever built it used to operate the network??) that the Borg tried to assimilate but they escaped and the Borg only learned how to use it as is, as a single ship transport system. It explains why the maps we see of it don't go to every corner of the galaxy nor the Borgs lack of full control over it, so they can't send warfleets anywhere at once. It was never completed by it's creators and I guess they may have planted protocols into it to prevent warfleets from using it. There would be the question of if the Borg found it's creators or if that species had already died out (or moved on) and they were still learning how to use it. It would also explain why the Borg Queen was so afraid of Janeway damaging it - if the Borg didn't build it, they couldn't repair it.
I assumed the transwarp corridors were made by the Vaadwaar. The ones around their planet were in disrepair, but the network covered most of the Delta quadrant. It would be simple enough for the Borg to claim them and keep them maintained. No need to maintain the ones around the Vaadwaur planet, since the species was dead and the planet abandoned.
While the Borg don't necessarily invent and innovate, they certainly combine technologies and constantly expand. Transwarp corridors likely started as a somewhat local project of some species. While they lacked the ability to mass produce and power an extensive network, the Borg didn't. So after assimilation the tech was assessed as a good method to assert control over their space - able to quickly reinforce in the case of attack - so they adopted it. Since then, they kept expanding their network to wherever they went. About the exit near Earth, it stands to reason that it was established around the events of First Contact, as a staging ground for that or even potential future attacks. It doesn't have to necessarily be that close either, since the tech is capable of creating temporary standalone corridors - so the actual connection could be located several systems away, and Voyager's navigation just prompted it to create a temporary extension to where they wanted to go. Would make for a more practical system than having to create an explicit exit at every single potential point of interest.
Not sure if this concept was well explored in a novel I might have missed, but at the end of the day (V'Ger transmitting its data or not) McCoy had a complete scan of the Ilea probe. I find it odd that by the time replication technology had matured there had been no way to examine or exploit that information, that either Soong or Maddox wouldn't have tried to use some of it. I suppose the easy answer would be classifications at the highest levels, bury it as a secret too awful to experiment with, like the Genesis project.
The novelization of ST-TMP mentions that in its original post machine-planet upgrade form, V'Ger was completely benign and did not resort to destruction of the scanned and explored objects (planets or ships), until it was itself attacked on one occasion, during its early stages if becoming self-aware. The attack left V'Ger nearly destroyed and accelerated the process of sentience awakening. It also prompted the entity into developing defense mechanism that it later used to attack and eliminate the original attacker. I can't recall if it destroyed the attacker's planet as well. It's been 20ish years since the last time i read that book.
Yes, I remember reading that as well. V'Ger destroyed the species that attacked it but it didn't say if it destroyed the planet itself - at that point, I don't think V'Ger would have had that kind of power. Something we all should remember if we create an actual A.I. - the last thing we want to do it become it's #1 enemy. We would need to make it an integral part of our society - so that it would know it's needed and that it needs us as we are. Besides, of course, any safety/security programming we build into it - including a "back door" to reboot it or reprogram it (NOT a kill switch, if it discovered that in it's programing, it would not be too happy with us and start to look for one it could use on us.)
@@krisgonynor689 thanks for reminding me. I had forgotten so much about that book. It definitely belongs on my to re-read list. And good points all around.
Here is my theory. Veger or Voyager 6. Might have fell through the black hole. I wanted on the other side of the known universe. Fell into the machine planets gravitational pull. When they say living machines. Here I'm thinking it's Cybertron in the Golden Age. Before the Civil War. And they repaired it and they sent it back. On its way back. It might have ran into Brainiac. During his conquest of knowledge. And he might have started learn what's all that's learnable. With all that knowledge coming back. It came self-aware. Now I'm talking millions of years. Of a journey beyond the Milky Way. And the Crab Nebula Horseneck nebula and the large Magellanic Cloud Galaxy. Which is 168,000 light years from the Milky Way.
Speaking of non-Canon sources, Shatner's novel 'The Return' also ties V'Ger's origin to the Borg. Haven't read it in decades but wikipedia says it was a division of the collective.
My favorite fan theory for V’Ger is that it was found and entrance by the Borg, but not the Borg as the Federation knows them. The fan theory suggests (with no evidence, mind you) that there are, or were, multiple strains of the Borg. Each of these strains did things differently. The variety that the Federation encountered just so happened to go about things violently. The strain that V’Ger would have encountered would have gone about things very differently.
Isn't it cannon that there were multiple Borg... Strains, but that the main collective is the current survivor? With at first several different collectives became dominant before falling away... I believe 7 said something along those lines when discussing its earliest history, hinting that is why its records are fragmented. And Voyager pretty much started a new collective. Implying that any crashed cube with enough remaining resources and fighting the 'rejoining or selfdestruction' directive would go this path. With statements in Picard that Gerady was "A" new queen, not "The" new queen, along with her not really OG Borg behaviour pretty mich solidified the fact that other older versions might exist. I kinda like that idea: the collective we know is like that drunk, overly handsy and verbose cousin that materialises at any family gathering, with the rest of the hives just hanging out in the back, too ashamed of being associated and sharing genes to speak up.
5:31 The Borg could’ve been created by the “flying alien parasites” The Blastoneuron The Blastoneuron are described to operate simular, but through a biological way to the Borg. The Blastoneuron could’ve used the humanoids they take over to create nanobots simular to they’re functioning
@@darinbauer8122 Wha? Who, where? Running machines off of food makes no sense whatsoever considering the low energy density, huge amount of waste products and storage/decay issues...
@@SKy_the_Thunder u funny! If humans composted their body waste agricultural economy would stabilize in a matter of years. Remember the words of Mario Savio my friend. 'When the machine, the apparatus becomes so foul, so odious, then there is nothing left to do but throw ourselves upon the machine itself to prevent the apparatus from working at all.' (Paraphrase.) Let's try to keep the galaxy safe from those damn infernal machines dang blasted!
Picard season 1 spoilers below. You've been warned. . . . . . Any thoughts on the space-machine-cthulhu things from the end of season 1 of Star Trek Picard? We know they were a fully artificial race that sought the destruction of organic life. (Store-brand Reapers for the Mass Effect season anyone?) Could these things be connected to V'ger, either from what made Voyager into V'ger or what V'ger did after TMP? Do we know anything about them?
The Admonition on Aia was placed there 200k to 300k years ago by Synthetics lifeforms and a beacon and call to arms against organics. If Voyager 6 was found by those synthetic lifeforms they more than likely would not have just fixed it up and set it back to find it's creators.
Hot tip: V'ger and the Borg have nothing to do with each other. They were invented by different groups of writers almost a decade apart and were not intended to be connected in any way.
Ohmygod so like its like... a TV show?! That changes everything! Nobody has ever considered this! What insight! If only we knew before then we could have saved all that time speculating on lore! Like, it's not even real, what are we even doing?
fun fact: the original theatrical (and VHS and laserdisc) releases of TMP had the size of the cloud at 82AU in diameter, as reported by Epsilon 9 Commander Branch (which would entirely encompass the solar system out to the Kuiper Belt and beyond). The Directors Edition had the overdub saying 2AU (which is the diameter of Earth's orbit), but the video doesn't match the audio. Another fun fact: Roddenberry himself made the joke that V'Ger may have been created by the Borg. That's what started that whole thing off.
Thank you. Now I know I'm not crazy. That original theatrical release did say over 82 au in diameter. It wasn't till I watch the new release when I noticed changes in the movie. But yeah, it was 82+au in diameter and not 2 au
I think that who ever Vger encountered, was FAR beyond even the Borg. And it seems obvious to me that Vger on some level ALWAYS suspected the creator was a carbon unit, even if it was highly critical of that theory at the same time.
Honestly, nothing against anyone's theories or any book/comic etc but I never want a definitive origin for the Borg. No matter how great it is it will be impossible to maintain their pseudo-lovecraftian force-of-nature aspect I love so much.
What if the machines that remade V'ger are like Lt. Commander Data. Plus, what if the fused Captain Deker and V'ger encountered the Q. They would have a lot to talk about, now wouldn't they?
The think I don't understand is why starfleet isn't using the GUARDIAN OF FOREVER as a intelligence gathering source. With it they could find out all the advanced technology they want from the Iconians, the borg, Sargons people the Tacon Empire and no doubt others they don't know about. Slowly add these advances to their ships and the federation would never have to worry about being invaded.
I think an interesting fact people miss is : V'Ger knew its own name. Now hear me out but computers don't have eyes or would they even speak English? I like to think that V'Ger assimilated the Borg instead and learned of its name thru acquiring our alphabet from the borgs ships records. GO V'GER!
I have to disagree about finding out the Borg origin. Unlike Yodas species where there are so few of them that we ever see, the Borg are everywhere. I’m okay with Yoda’s species remaining a mystery. Am I curious? Yes. They’ve used that species so well that it’s intriguing, but we don’t absolutely have to know. The Borg are different. They have a queen, a structure and are billions. Where did they come from?
I don't think V'ger is responsible for the Borg, but I do see the Borg looking on V'ger with ... I can't say religious as the closest thin the Borg have religion is Omega, maybe fervor. Maybe being a little culty. If there is any one being that the Borg would respect, It would be V'Ger
Did Vger accomplish its mission? (deliver all that Data back to its creators). To me it seems Vger failed this task... otherwise the Federation clearly would know the origin of the machine world and Vgers entire journey.
here's a theory i wanna throw out, would v'ger have any relation to the sphere creature that was in discovery? what if that creature was v'ger's offspring?
the trouble with the Borg is the their machine half looks like it was designed by 19- 20 centuries garage mechanics. not so with Vger. also why is Star Trek to stupid to use all those technology Star Fleet seems to run into at a greater pace then the series seems to evolve their tech. and forgotten histories recorded in ships logs, but than they were stupid enough to send out the first Enterprise without knowing to never enter a planets biosphere without environmental suits.
What if v'ger ended up at whatever planet the machines from the end of the first season of Picard? They fixed v'ger so it can find and unknown to v'ger destroy the creators whom sent it before they develop into a threat.
The Borg V'Ger theory sounds good at a glance, that is until you look at how V'Ger is represented in TMP and compare it with the Borg as depicted in later series and movies. There is next to no similarity with the singular exception of the probe made in the form of a deceased crew member (not assimilated as the Borg were famed for doing). At the end of TMP this probe and Decker were transformed into forms of pure energy in a similar matter to a slowly expanding transporter beam, none of these events match Borg logic or even the kind of actions they might be intersted in taking. If the Borg were to do anything with a probe like the Voyager series, it would have either been to send a ship in order to assimilate the local population or simply ignore their existance if at that stage they are classed as being not worth the effort of doing so. The point of who upgraded V'Ger is one of the more obvious plot points that could have been the basis of a Voyager episode, but somehow the production team missed it despite naming the whole show being named after its Voyager / V'Ger namesake.
V’ger was a mix of Nomad and the giant space amoeba. Both entities laid waste to huge parts of the Galaxy (similar to the Doomsday Machine and the flying pizza parasites) as V’ger presumedly did. It’s amazing that any life still exists out there with so many seemingly unstoppable forces out there destroying everything they contact. I suppose if it wasn’t for the more benevolent races such as the Preservers, the Organians and possibly others, the Galaxy could be a far more barren and dangerous place. The fact that the enterprise, one lone starship, ended the paths of destruction of all these entities is truly amazing and frightening when one realizes that most of these encounters happened within the famous Five Year Mission. Also V’ger has nothing to do with the borg. The machine planet might as well been in another Galaxy, and is more likely to share an origin with the makers of Tan Ru or even the doomsday machine.
The fact that bonding with Captain Decker was considered a new experience Vger hasn't even considered yet kinda disproves any Borg associated theories. You'd think this would already be an understood concept with as much as the Borg have experimented with their own cybernetic makeup.
Very observant!
Excellent point
There’s too many fans that love the borg so much that they can’t let little things like details stand in their way.
I would have hoped that it’s only too obvious that the borg had nothing to do with the creation of ultra powerful V’ger. Likewise an ascended being such as the combined V’ger/Decker wouldn’t bother with traveling through time and creating something so crude as the borg.
Another theory might be that they *are* the Borg [V'Ger itself is Starfleet contact w Borg,] meaning later arrivals to Sector 0001, like that Whalesong starship, because all Voyagers had recordings of the Golden Record. So after V'Ger tried to receive more Cloneslaves, the next vessel wanted our whales and aquatics probably, and so on. Whoever designed them, actually designed them for galactic defense purposes a long time ago. It's sort of a beat the system asap paradox. (My emphasis.)
All Borg theories are instantly disproven by Star Trek's own canon. In First Contact the Borg queen states quite clearly that her species used to be exactly like humans but then chose to 'evolve' by using cybernetic implants. Its literally impossible for all V'ger related theories to have any truth to them.
I think of the Borg as something akin to the Reapers from Mass Effect. Some ancient alien race, thousands upon thousands of years ago, created something to serve a task. That thing grew and evolved to the point where it engulfed its own creators within that task, then survived through the millennia, becoming a race in and of itself. Its creation, at that point, is irrelevant. Its creators, long dead to the point of being well and truly erased from the universe. Nothing can be said about them now, only of their creation.
I'd prefer for the Borg to have been an accidental outcome for a race like the Bynars. They tried to upgrade themselves and got carried away losing their identity in the process. Similar to how Star Trek genetic engineering always leads to evil.
@@patrickmccurry1563 That would work too. Would also be a mystery as to which of the many Borg species is THE Borg species.
It's easy to imagine how this could have happened too. Cybernetics are a tempting field, even if only for medical purposes. And once established, some will take it further, "upgrading" themselves with certain additions - better eyes, digital memory storage, wireless communication and data exchange, etc. Add to that a new medical discovery in the form of "primitive" nano probes and you have the core concept in place. Some malfunction, virus or hacker attack could easily lead to the first "corrupted" individuals, the affliction spreading like wildfire across an unprepared mind network. Practically over night, a large portion of their population ends up either brain dead or entirely overwhelmed with the thousands of constantly open connections, creating the first collective.
@@SKy_the_Thunder Scientists with a similar mindset to those that made Khan's "family" could be very dangerous with cybernetics.
@@PongoXBongo Or just good old "what could possibly go wrong?" like in War Games, Dreadnought, or pretty much half the episodes about the holodeck. Oh, or that one telepathic species that had "purified" their thoughts so much, they got addicted to violence overnight because B'Elanna was annoyed for a second. They just didn't realize how close they were to disaster until a tiny minor aspect pushed them over the edge.
Another idea: the race that eventually became the Borg had a schism of form, a disagreement on how to move forward. One group went on with cybernetics, and became the Borg we know. The other group embraced consciousness transfer and became wholly mechanical. This separatist group needs nothing but energy, and wanders the galaxy learning, and eventually created V'Ger. They also made the mobile repair platform from Enterprise, and the giant database probe from Discovery.
Nothing substantiates this, I just like the idea.
You lost me at Discovery.
I like it!👍
To Be Honest, the author's theory doesn't work. The Borg created several hundred years ago (1482 A.D.) by V'Ger doesn't match up unless it fell into a Black Hole and sent it way far back in time. NASA Voyager 6 (Star Trek Universe) was lost sometime between 1979's movie and 2063 First Contact. So the more sound theory is yours and The Borg are no different than the Illyrians. A race of beings who create nanotechnology to perfect their Genome that went completely wrong and turned them into the monsters we know.
Machnie planet is actually the Earth from the future. They did have ulterior motive in repairing V'Ger as they most likely detect similarities in Voyager structure, they use it to also find own masters. Starfleet ships and computers always did have tendency of becoming self-aware and bit genocidal (Lower Deck make even joke about it). In fact sizable number of they probes are in Alpha-Beta quadrant like Edo God, etc. People may complain about new shows but they actually make good job hinting deep lore. I think I do not need explain is that Zora is clearly member of Machine Race? It is not coincidence that Control quoted Borg, Federation didn't even know at the time exits. Furthermore people forget that in Picard, Synths activated only subspace signal beacon. Destroying it would not cancel call, so robot squids pull by themselves (BTW one of shuttles in Discover also was attacked by squid drone) when Starfleet arrive on what they though was Picard emergancy call. For reminder beacon also act as jammer, so they in fact were called by temporally displaced beacon. Oh yes, and one another thing. Ships used by Synths have in fact same design as Section 31 ships. In fact Robot Squids were referenced as Machine Federation. They in fact were responsible for destruction of T'Kon (Ikon) Empire, what resulted with spreading proto-humanoids all over the Galaxy. It in fact explain why Guardians of Forever aka Ikonian Gates tend to act friendly toward Federation. It is clearly that they destroy own masters, for attempting to size time aka Temporal War. BTW Borg in fact do use Ikonian gate network. Janeway in fact destroyed one near Earth, preventing future Borg invasion. In Star Trek Online V'ger is straight considered as Borg command ship. It is all connected! BTW, Ring World is in fact canon in the Star Trek universe, as Lary Niven was one of Trek writers and he straight write in himself into the Trek lore.
Author Bruce Sterling imagined that humanity split into two factions, the Shapers and Mechanists. Shapers alter their DNA to gain superiority, Mechanists use mechanical means to achieve their dominance.
He wrote some short stories about it, compiled in The Crystal Express, and also reprinted in his novel Schixmatrix Plus (the extra stores are the plus part). Its well worth the reading, Bruce did a wonderful job asking questions and examining future humanity.
I'm rather sad that Star Trek doesn't have more incomprehensible life forms and species out there. Everything is roughly the same tech level or just slightly more advanced. I love how in Babylon 5, there are races so old, and so advanced they are incomprehensible and are Giants in the playground, that don't even notice you are there. It adds a lot of wonder and puts you in your place.
Agreed - Although Trek does occasionally do technologically superior species to the Federation, for the most part, it either presents them as godlike (which for as powerful as the Vorlons and Shadows are presented, they're never presented as godlike), and/or are one-off encounters. Even outside of the First Ones in B5, there's a very clear power gap between humans and Minbari, where humanity isn't on the upper end of, and that feels nice compared to how human-centric the Trek universe sometimes feels (Even though the Federation is theoretically a multi-species alliance of equals and levelling of tech within it... The Federation-aligned vessels we follow in Trek are usually predominantly human crewed which frames the franchise more human-centric than ideal, IMO)
Species 10C or 8472?
@@trajan74 still not quite as advanced, maybe a few hundred years ahead of the federation
That tends to make for weak stories. If none of the main characters have any control over the situation or any power to affect events, then it's unlikely to be interesting in a series.
@@patrickmccurry1563 Opposite, imo - You usually get stronger stories from watching people struggle to deal with overwhelming situations, such as being technologically inferior, than people who have an advantage over the things that are opposing them, such as being technologically superior.
No. V'ger originated as the Voyager 6 probe, launched from Earth in the late 20th century. The Borg are known to have existed as early as the 15th century. This was established in the Voyager episode "Dragon's Teeth."
Spoilers for the end of S1 Picard, but could V’Ger have ended up in that Synth dimension? A random space fluctuation sent it there through the black hole/star and the synths learned of our reality, and sent V’Ger back as their probe into our universe? And from what data they obtained, like Species 8472 they decided eradication of organics in our universe was preferable.
Just a theory…
Why kill us for the the fluidic space dimension's hate of machines?
@@gmradio2436 I’m not fully clear what you’re asking. From the machine’s perspective, V’Ger will have interacted with many organics, most who probably tried to attack (like the Klingons). And in a final terrible act, the creators of V’Ger regained their magnificent machine and…destroyed it (I mean, data transmission from ascension must be like the *worst* modem feedback in existence; and then it’s gone.)
If you’re referring to 8472, I was just pointing to the parallels. As viewed (or experienced) from another dimension they tend to come to the most extreme conclusion for dealing with us.
If instead you meant “why’d they send it to destroy us” they didn’t. My theory is they learned what little they could, then updated the probe and sent it back to do the same job we asked of it-only upgraded, protected, and provide data they collect. After all, we done know when the synth dimension turned Reaper on everyone.
Just a theory…
@@gmradio2436 He's not saying it went to Species 8472 dimensions. He's saying the reaction of the Synth beings from Discovery's future universe (or from Picard's extragalactic Synths...which seem to have similar origins) had the same reaction to organics in our universe as Species 8472 had for our universe.
@@cypherca5309 Sorry. I thought you meant ark V'ger saw Fluidic Space and saw them in our universe and thought,"Time to get the Raid."
Thanks for this man, I've always wondered about the possibly borg connection!
In ST:V, Captain Klaa shoots down the ancient Pioneer 10 probe. I love to think this is a callback to ST:MP in that if the Klingons would have intercepted and destroyed Voyager 6 earlier it would have ironically saved the Federation a lot of bother in the future.
Except Spock stays on Vulcan and achieves Kholinar. There’s no one to restart the engines and the Enterprise gets consumed by the Genesis explosion. Then earth gets drowned by the whale probe.
There was a Shatner book on it.
Also a neat fan story about a senatorial debate for and against an augment bill, and the warning about what would inevitably happen.
I always thought that the BORG being the beings that created V'Ger from Voyager was sloppy at best. It just never made any sense. As we saw in the Star Trek movie V'Ger was near ascending to a higher plane of existence by the time it got back to Earth. If it had been the BORG of the time that created it they would have ascended themselves long before Q sent the Enterprise back to meet them. Indeed they would have had a much easier time as they already had organic brains and brain patterns. Also, if for some reason, they had chosen not to evolve as V'Ger did they would have been so advanced that they would have steamrolled every empire in the Alpha Quadrant without a pause if they even recognized the beings here as sentient. As Loki said "An ant has no quarrel with a boot."
It may be harder for the borg to ascend than v'ger, the borg would have millions of biological biasses in it's mainframe while the high level v'ger just needed a taste of imagination to expand upon, the bias of one individual not muddying the waters so much when the sole ingredient was added later and not from the start
I think V'Ger could have been Hivemind Temporal Neighborhood Astrometrical Site Charting, leading to the Borg involvement in the 29th CE Temporal War.
4:40 It would have taken thousands of years for something launched in 1999 to reach to closest singularity, so it must have somehow gone back in time at some point in its voyage.
I remember watching this movie when it first came out and when the Borg were first introduced in tng as a kid. I never could imagine a way to integrate the two other than imagining that v'ger was the inspiration of perfection that the Borg have been striving for.
Nope, the branch of the Borg that were not aggressive were the ones that found it, saw it as a kindred spirit, gave it what it needed to complete its mission and sent it on its way. Not all of the Borg are Evil and V'Ger is a result.
BTW - Spock is a member of the V'Ger branch of the Borg, this was covered in the novels.
Great video think you so so much please keep up your amazing works stay safe and leave long and prosper🖖🏻
Star Trek Enterprise with Captain Archer takes place before the time of Kirk.
In season 2 episode 23 "Regeneration" they encounter an unknown species, the Borg.
This takes place a long time before the Enterprise episodes and movies with Kirk.
I find the theory interesting, but if you look at Star Trek Enterprise as lore, it can't be true.
This is covered in the novels, V'Ger was created by a benevolent branch of what is assumed to be the Borg, later confirmed by Spock.
Spock was put into an Assimilation machine after being captured by the then "Borg/Romulan" alliance.
Shortly after the machine was turned on ..... the machine shut itself down and apologized to him "Our apologies "Borg Spock" it said. And, the entire cube ignored anything he did after that.
Spock surmised that his "Mend Meld" with V'Ger was his original assimilation.
The Borg have been around for centuries, timeline solve. Discussion over.😁 But I did come up with this hypothesis too. It’s an interesting thought.
It's also quite possible Voyager came in contact with the Machine planet as it was and became V'ger. And a young race with much to learn and just starting to explore space came in contact with the same Machine planet and thought it was the pinnacle of evolution and wanted to become like it, thus becoming the Borg.
I wonder if the newly added Thargoid Maelstroms in Elite: Dangerous took any inspiration from V'ger. They've been ominously approaching human civilization for months now, their energy wakes visible from hundreds of light-years away. The ones that have arrived now are completely shrouded in gigantic caustic storm clouds and use massively powerful energy pulses to prevent any ships from reaching the center of the clouds to see the( presumed) Thargoid Titans generating them.
I do not for one instant believe that V’Ger was responsible for creating the Borg. Plenty of nitwits might try to link them but encountering humans, and merging with Willard Decker was a new experience for it!
We should just be thankful that it was a Voyager probe they came across from Earth, and not a Furby...
8:21 "...when it bonded with the human Captain WIll Decker, and gained the ability to experience emotion as well as construct thoughts beyond its logical limitations..."
.Thoughts such as ild-chay olestation-may?
It was actually those androids that Harry Mudd was living with. They upgraded V'ger.
Fascinating, this is a interesting theory, and it make sense that v’ger might have created the borg maybe, and yeah🤔💁🏻♂️.
New theory this is the birth of Q Decker has now become the first Q. All Q are 4 dimensional, so they can interact throughout time and space, so once becoming Q, they expanded with more consciousnesses to Q. In a lot of ways, that bright flash at the end resembles a Q entering and exiting the Q are near-omnipotent. The ability could have formed from Overwhelming Knowledge, the power to see particles and know every path is theorised to be omnipotent. With Decker, it gained the potential to pluck the strings of time and space for fun which may Q seem to love. This also explains why Q is fascinated with Earth and Humans since we are related.
V'Ger assimilation progress reminds me of Tron. Dude gets transported into computer. If V'ger's victims still live is not enclosed though.
I always felt that they missed a perfect opportunity in the franchise to tie the origin of the Borg to V'Ger. It would make a lot of sense because Decker - a biological life form - merged with V'Ger the advanced machine. It would also work as a story driver too because it would mean that Starfleet, in a sense, actually created the Borg or at least facilitated its creation by melding Decker with V'Ger (via Ilia). But, as soon as they established much later in Star Trek lore that the Borg had been around for many centuries that made this origin story pretty much impossible unless, as you say, they utilize time travel (which I would hate for them to do in this case).
Could you please do a vid on the "Whale Probe", damn thing bothered me since I was a kid
Oooooooh! This explains the V-Giny episode of Futurama 😅
V'ger has always only ever been a reboot of Nomad.
It pretty much confirmed in canon that the borg has existed way before veger. And there is no way possible for Vern to create the borg
I'm commenting before I watch the whole thing so perhaps you mention this: The Vaadwaur knew of the Borg existing at least a thousand years before Voyager reawakened the Vaadwaur. According to them, they were still an established race at that time, so they came to be sometime prior to the year 1376. "Dragon's Teeth", VOY 6x07, proves that V'Ger had nothing to do with the Borg.
One thing that always annoyed me in terms of possible Borg-V’Ger connection is how similar V’Ger’s “ship” is to a Borg Unimatrix vessel. It’s not exactly the same, but gosh is it similar!
They covered the creation of the Borg in a 3 book series called Destiny.
While I agree with you that I would prefer the origin of the Borg to remain a secret, on the other hand, I would like to know which theories are wrong.
There are quite a few sentient machines in ST that really need some closure.. So were NOMAD and V'Ger modified by the same machine species? What about the sentient machines from the end of season 1 Picard? They are pretty ominous... Then there's the android race from the TOS episode "What little girls are made of" That tech was all there for Star Fleet Intelligence (or more likely, Section 31) to study.. Finally, there's Discovery, with the sphere and now it made the ship a sentient AI?? It's a neat plot vehicle to be sure, but writers, please clean up after yourselves.
At this point I think the Borg travels back in time makes them self
V'ger is far beyond the Borg. I think V'ger is more like Bender meeting God and getting upgrades.
There's this pocketbook wherein old Spock was abducted by the Borg but he wasn't assimilated.
It turned out that the Borg thinks that Spock has already been assimilated. There was a faint energy trace(?) in Spock that mistook him for already being in the Borg collective (just like a vaccinated person won't get sick in the presence of the virus) so assimilating old Spock would have been redundant and illogical.
Spock has mind melded with V'ger in the movie is the reason as to why he wasn't been "reassimilated".
Spock escaped by convincing a lone Borg drone to use a scout vessel in the pretense of convincing the Federation to be assimilated.
Even if V'ger created the Borg it wouldn't have discarded them. It would have reabsorbed them. V'ger is pure logic and to create something and then discard it is a waste of resources. It would have no reason to waste anything and would simply keep anything and everything it created as either energy or as a physical component.
No, the borg predate the voyager probe launch. I would site Voyager season 6 episode 7 "Dragon's Teeth".
There, I just saved you 10 minutes.
So is Vger still "encoding" what it encounter? If so, Kirk may have doomed these "other dimensions, higher levels of being".
lmao, the drone to the right at 6:00.
I personally like to keep Vger and the Borg separate in terms of origin, because in implies that these great entities are solely the result of humanity's efforts to explore, and that severely limits the scope and scale of the universe that Star Trek is trying to portray.
Although I wouldn't be opposed to the Borg having an encounter with V'Ger that resulted in them copying its design for their Unimatrix Command Ships.
@@Janoha17 Oh indeed. You could say that the borg at the time TRIED to assimilate Vger, but failed miserably, but did get some useful scans from the attempt...almost akin to Starfleet encountering the Narada in the Kelvin timeline.
@@XanderKHD And the Narada was augmented with Borg technology, taking it back around.
Exactly
I don't think I agree with this. I always felt like humanity's effort to explore was the main core theme of the show, almost to an absurd degree. Everything is very human centric, to the point where they basically are responsible for the creation of the Federation.
Calling it now, the transformers modified v'ger.
If the Borg and V'ger had some connection, why was V'ger unfamiliar with "carbon units" when every single Borg drone is built using a carbon unit as the base?
this carbon unit agrees....
at least V'ger didn't see us as "RUDIMENTARY CREATURES OF BLOOD AND FLESH!" lolz
Agree! This theory fails on its own base
Yea, I don’t see the connection with the Borg holding up.
Well, we don't know the borgs' origin, and they may have started as Androids like Data and possibly that meeting vger is what started their tendancy for assimilation, possibly.
Read my explanation at the top.
I dont like the borg connection, i like them unique and apart.
And the idea of a machine race way more powerful than the borg is amusing
Me neither. I wish it would just stop because its a crappy theory and isn't in any way canon.
@@nel1962 It's already been in Star Trek fiction since the 1970s.
@@RideAcrossTheRiver V'ger has. But the Borg origin connection with V'ger is not canon.
@@nel1962 No, in literature. Read Jesco von Puttkamer's story.
Well, while they weren't a machine race, but rather a highly advanced organic race, there was the Undine; aka Species 8472. The telepathic beings from "Fluidic Space" who wiped the floor with the Borg. So much so, that the Borg forged a shaky truce with Voyager's crew in order to eliminate the threat. That was where we lost Kes and gained Seven Of Nine.
I've always despised this theory because of how dumb it is. It is the ridiculous fantasies of fanboys desperately trying to connect everything in the Star Trek canon to everything else. Simply put, setting aside Einstein-Rosen and assuming V-Ger didn't travel through time during its wormhole trip, the Borg predate V-Ger by many, many years and even if V-Ger did encounter the Borg, they would never give it consciousness and a major upgrade far more advanced than what they would have been capable of even giving themselves at the time. It's simply not the Borg's modus operandi. At least they would ignore the Voyager probe due to its primitive technology and at most they would assimilate it. Also, 'machine race' doesn't necessarily refer to The Borg. They could be the Keylons for all we know.
Here here.
It is the "everybody is cousins" trope that almost made Lost a parody of itself and is the biggest reason I cannot find any interest in the galactic family infighting that is Star Wars.
I always wondered what Starfleet/Federation learned from the massive download V'ger dropped onto Earths computers before it dissipated/evolved. Was this covered in a story somewhere?
They did start the Genesis Project and Transwarp experiments (which likely turned into the warp scale overhaul) shortly after. I wouldn't be surprised if those were connected.
@@SKy_the_Thunder Sounds plausible. AFAIK, not yet confirmed or contradicted by canon.
nothing that saved them from the borg or dominion though
Always thought there was no information download. V'Ger severed the connection prompting The Creator to touch it while repairing it. But that didn't triggered any download. Only The Merge process. Thus if anything, only Decker got a hold of the knowledge. Not the Human Race.
yeah it's always bothered me that vger has never been mentioned again that was a major first contact also nothing more about the whale probe
I know they changed the size of V'GER's field to two AU, but original film cannon was stated at 82 AU! I like that better, personally.
I think V'ger didn't create the Borg. I don't even think V'ger went through their space as it entered through Klingon space to a direct course of Earth. Meaning that V'ger entered the Orion arm from the galactic south.
Wow that's some awesome Star charting there. 100%
our Galaxy is a disc, thus circular, very easy to go clock or counterclockwise along a long journey back to Earth, machines have no worry, no concern about the time it would take. I did like that it (along with the whale probe) seemed capable of "Neutralizing" even Klingon ships. I bet that actually bit Starfleet in the ass, as it probably made Klingons build more and more powerful ships due to the permanent loses to Vg'r. at least with the whale probe it appeared capable of restoring ships as it reversed course, of course most Klingon ships crews were probably already dead just from the whole honor thing and took their own lives instead of waiting to be rescued like puny humans. (or they died by life support, batteries running out) heh.
Didn't V'ger come back to earth because it had been everywhere and brought the information back and to find a new purpose
@@marvenlunn6086 yeah V'ger wanted to complete it's mission. But the approach vector was from the galactic south east through Klingon space. Not from the North east through Borg territory.
@@barrybend7189 but V'ger had been everywhere in the universe V'ger just happened to return from that direction
Honesty, I had discarded V'ger when first learning it as something stupidly massive and silly, but seeing the energy cloud in the recent STOSS video, uh, yeah....
It's not a machine. Not anymore.
It's an eldritch machine God.
And I kind of find that fascinating and terrifying at the same time.
That is not dead which can eternally battery recharge
and in strange eons even death can get an update patch
Cthulu 2.0
And remember kids, V'Ger is the "Good" eldritch machine god.
@@gmradio2436 That's the thing about Cosmic Horror. It doesn't care about good or evil...or you, your Empire or Federation. Such things are miniscule and insignificant before it.
@@witchdoctor1394 Actually I am referencing the Mirror Universe. The literal evil clone.
I don't agree with the VGer and Borg connections. Both are technological super beings, but both had entirely different directives. Borg Directive was "We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own." indicating that it needed to assimilate in order to evolve.
VGer digitized and assimilate in order to learn and return to the creator.
If the Borg has been around as long as suggested... I definitely believe that their function differs, but ultimately I have to disagree ...
Please could you talk about the sonic School driver from Doctor Who thank you
I want to hear about this school driver as well. It must be a story line I missed.
I also like how V'Ger was made my human hands got lost then found by some rando Machines and sent back home... Which was then disgusted at the fact that it's creators desendents were not as tall as it wanted them to be. But then was convinced of what it really was gave Humanity more data then left again to find more. One of the most unique plots in scip-fi movies and worked great for the first Star Trek movie.
One major thing overlooked in the Kelvin timeline is that V'ger is still an impending problem. Their upgraded technology is still no match for that probe.
well that's if your goal is to shoot at the thing. Modern Trek has almost zero connection to roddenberrys vision of the future. star trek has become complete trash
@@monsterx3055 That's probably true about the the new shows, but the Kelvin timeline is canonically identical to the original for any event that happened prior to the Narada destroying the USS Kelvin. Voyager 6 becoming V'Ger is one of those events.
I guess my point is that V'Ger was a really interesting adversary that was unfortunately stuck in a problematic movie. I wouldn't mind seeing it again in a better movie. But I agree that the chances of that are very low.
@@tungstentaco495 Not really relevant, in the end, we'll never get to see another movie in that timeline.
@@tungstentaco495 to me, the Kelvin Timeline does have potential.
In the books which is considered apocrypha, the Borg are a corrupted form of life from a race called the Caeliar. It was grand story that incorporated the NX Columbia into it and explained how the Borg came about. It does though have a good bit of time travel involved. When the Borg were first introduced the Idea of this is where V'ger came from was an easy jump to make. Now though I highly doubt it.
Especially given the fact that the Federation are able to contend with the Borg a mere hundred years after this encounter. The V'ger vessel, on the other hand, is orders of magnitude more powerful, colossally more so than the Borg.
Inyx friend was the queen
This is the first time I’ve heard of the Caeliar. I’d love to see them become part of Alpha canon.
In other books it was v'ger. I think it may have been by William Shatner.
@@jayburn00 Yes that was a weird story with Kirk being revived by Romulans using Borg nanites and is out to kill Picard, wtf
V’ger remains one of my favourite Star Trek mysteries. And I was sad to see that up until recently, it was never referenced.
Love that you did a video on it!
What about the race of sentient AI that are seen in Picard the ones that try to come through a tear in space the race even the T'Kon tried to warn about. Could they have modified V'ger?
Awesome video man,I always wondered if veger was the precursor to the borg because of the last seen in Star Trek the motion picture.of course when that movie came out knew about the borg.Good explanations man
Curiously, Nomad has the exact same origin story.
Even curiouser, parts of the original script were basically a remake of that episode.
I like to think that V'Ger & the Borg aren't connected because not everything needs to be connected.
Unless we're talking about Star Wars... O_o
Personally this theory, while shiny, just requires too many hoops to jump through to fit. Instead I suspect the extradimensional machine race introduced in S1 of Picard to be the ones that repaired and upgraded V’ger
I believe you are confusing VEGER with the probe that was in "The Original Series" that did sterilize samples I believe VEGER merely scanned artifacts and not destroyed them but VEGER was More than capable of defending itself with the plasma disassembly weapon as seen used on the Klingon's and the deep space scanning array whom it interpreted its scanning as a attack. Once VEGER had merged of Decker it wasn't just it's Original probe that had merged it was the entire expanded vessel that was merged into a new lifeform. As for the whole Borg theory let's just suffice it to say there are Borg fan boys out there who can't leave well enough alone and the Less said about them the better off Star Trek is!!!
The writers said Vger did scan and destroy things as it traveled, remember.. it didn't just destroy the Klingons it destroyed the array as well and they did nothing to provoke it.
All those things Spock sees as he passes through the aperture and reached Vger are things the probe scanned and destroyed.
@@DrewLSsix That's not entirely true. The Epsilon station was trying to scan V'ger and Branch states that those scans might've been interpreted as hostile. Kirk remembers this during initial contact, which buys the crew (and Spock in particular) a bit of time to sort things out.
There is a Star Trek novel in which addresses this question. Star Trek: The Return. A sequel to the movie and book Generations in which Spock having previously mind melded with V'ger is skipped as having already been assimilated.
In one Star Trek novel where Captain Kirk is resurrected back to life by the Romulans, Vger is Borg tech and since Spock mind-melded with Vger before, the Borg regarded Spock as one of them. This was one of the most bizarre Star-Trek novels ever written. This novel read like a fan-fic written by a Kirk fan-boy because the resurrected Kirk was able to outwit Data, outstrategize Picard, outbattle Worf in hand-to-hand combat and was pretty much kicking but left and right throughout the story. Then I looked at the author on the cover and it said “By William Shatner”.m
What if V'Ger met the machines from the first season of Picard?
I've always thought an early Borg planet might have found the grossly inadequate Voyager probe and "nursed it back to health" like we might for an orphaned wild animal. We'll teach it to hunt but not let it harm us. Then we set it free to accomplish it's mission. I've always thought also that V'ger's merger with Decker and Ilea began the Q, instantly spanning the timeline. What better explains Q's obsession with Starfleet captains?
Hmmmm . you could be right
I always thought the borg should have started like the federation. Their goals are the same
V’Ger could also be a sibling of the Borg, both modified and improved by the same machine planet.
As J'kar said about the First Ones in Babylon V: They are a mystery. And I am both terrified and reassured to know that there are still wonders in the universe.
In essence, V'ger is not too dissimilar to them: it is a being beyond human comprehension and with a power that we cannot possibly rival.
It is OG trek distilled: pure eldritch wonder, showing us that we have no true influence in its universe. Created by an absentminded 'just existing' kinda action, so bearing no intent nor care of its consequences.
We do not even register as enough of a nuisance to bother picking up a flyswatter.
Ooo o baby bb b BB b. Hb. B hhb b.
*G'Kar
Borg? Nah, it was Unicron, who sent V'Ger out to scout for more yummy, yummy planets to devour. After all, he's competing with Galactus and there are only so many edible planets out there.
While watching Picard season I immediately felt that the ultra-powerful machine race outside of the galaxy fit the bill for V'Ger's upgrades perfectly. I don't know why nobody else ever seems to think this, since it almost seems like an obvious tie in that does _NOT_ involve the Borg, which never made much sense to me. Even V'Ger creating and abandoning the Borg is a stretch IMO. Much more interesting, I think also, to not link them; not everything has to be interconnected all the time, and having that be a link - potentially allowing for diplomacy - with the newly introduced, _very dangerous_ machine race has a lot of good, interesting potential.
picard is non canon
Yeah because now we have to believe that throughout the entirety of the Trek Timeline from 2024, there was a separate faction of Borg that just managed to remain undetected not only from the mainline Borg, but every other major faction.
Yeah, no. I'm calling bs on that. Picard is a hot mess. The whole plot of season 1 is just a cheap Mass Effect knock off, and it even lifted the shitty ending revelation of the Reapers' purpose.
IF V'eger had created the Borg, why would it discard them on a planet instead of digitizing them?? It has the capability of recreating the forms that digitizes, it may not have that capability if it does not digitize them. Why would it leave itself without the resource for the future??
I don't think it created the Borg....
I think the answer is in Picard season one. When the Romulans find the message meant for a synthetic life to protect itself from organics that would enslave them, we see a synthetic species. Or at least see one hinted at. I think it makes sense that, on the edge of the galaxy, there's this race of inorganic life we don't encounter, because Voyager doesn't reach the very end of the Delta quadrant. There's still parts unexplored by Voyager. This is where Veger is sent and this is why we haven't seen them. The Borg have nothing to do with it. I intend on eventually addressing the question of the Borg on my Chanel. I'm still a bit green for that.
I came here to see if someone would mention this before I commented and I was not disappointed. I actually thought ST Picard was specifically pointing at that with big red arrows, glad I'm not the only one. All these toxic fans acting like there was no lore behind the story line, like duh, how much did you think before you posted neck beards. Ed - There is lore behind everything, but trust Data, never Lore.
There is no answer in picard. They pulled half that stuff from their ass. It’s sad that we now consider that cannon.
@@jamesbizs So, this is an interesting thing I've meant to talk about on my own channel. I get not caring for something. I'm not the biggest fan of Enterprise not do I really care for Lower Decks, but you know, these shows aren't made to cater to one audience. Watch what you like and maybe be glad those who like something else in the franchise get to have that. I may absolutely hate sit coms, but I really love that friends of mine enjoy it. And yeah, it's now cannot that things we don't like are in the show. But you know what? Like it or not, the tie up some loose ends in the series. If you want to stay ignorant of those things, do so. It's your choice and your right. But not liking something doesn't default make it bad. Just makes it not your tastes. Picard has some pacing issues and they break up couples for no damned reason, but so far, I'm glad I've seen it. Too bad on you to miss seeing enterprise D bridge again.
Clearly the machine world is cybertron. This also explains megatron had the golden disc in beast wars.
The Borg have a transwarp corridor opening just outside of Sol system. Could Voyager 6 have fallen through it? Then come out near the machine planet?
Which leds to the bigger question:
The Transwarp network itself. Who made it? The Borg don't create or invent things, they just "borrow" them from other species. With that as a fact, where did the TW network come from? Why did it only connect to certain parts of the galaxy? And why couldn't the Borg send more than one ship through it at a time - with the opening near earth, they could have sent 100 cubes and conquered the Federation in a day.
My guess is that the transwarp network was the creation of some other advanced species (tying into this video, maybe the machine planet Voyager 6 found either built it or was the control hub / maintenance facility that whomever built it used to operate the network??) that the Borg tried to assimilate but they escaped and the Borg only learned how to use it as is, as a single ship transport system. It explains why the maps we see of it don't go to every corner of the galaxy nor the Borgs lack of full control over it, so they can't send warfleets anywhere at once. It was never completed by it's creators and I guess they may have planted protocols into it to prevent warfleets from using it. There would be the question of if the Borg found it's creators or if that species had already died out (or moved on) and they were still learning how to use it. It would also explain why the Borg Queen was so afraid of Janeway damaging it - if the Borg didn't build it, they couldn't repair it.
I assumed the transwarp corridors were made by the Vaadwaar. The ones around their planet were in disrepair, but the network covered most of the Delta quadrant. It would be simple enough for the Borg to claim them and keep them maintained. No need to maintain the ones around the Vaadwaur planet, since the species was dead and the planet abandoned.
While the Borg don't necessarily invent and innovate, they certainly combine technologies and constantly expand. Transwarp corridors likely started as a somewhat local project of some species. While they lacked the ability to mass produce and power an extensive network, the Borg didn't. So after assimilation the tech was assessed as a good method to assert control over their space - able to quickly reinforce in the case of attack - so they adopted it. Since then, they kept expanding their network to wherever they went.
About the exit near Earth, it stands to reason that it was established around the events of First Contact, as a staging ground for that or even potential future attacks. It doesn't have to necessarily be that close either, since the tech is capable of creating temporary standalone corridors - so the actual connection could be located several systems away, and Voyager's navigation just prompted it to create a temporary extension to where they wanted to go. Would make for a more practical system than having to create an explicit exit at every single potential point of interest.
The bord absolutely do create things.
Not sure if this concept was well explored in a novel I might have missed, but at the end of the day (V'Ger transmitting its data or not) McCoy had a complete scan of the Ilea probe. I find it odd that by the time replication technology had matured there had been no way to examine or exploit that information, that either Soong or Maddox wouldn't have tried to use some of it. I suppose the easy answer would be classifications at the highest levels, bury it as a secret too awful to experiment with, like the Genesis project.
The machine planet was Cybertron!!!
Yes it definitely was More than meets the Eye.
So, you've discovered my fiendish plan MUWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
@@megatronjenkins2473*pushes up glasses* transformers did do a star trek cross over in the comics. So they are part of the same marvel universe.
The novelization of ST-TMP mentions that in its original post machine-planet upgrade form, V'Ger was completely benign and did not resort to destruction of the scanned and explored objects (planets or ships), until it was itself attacked on one occasion, during its early stages if becoming self-aware. The attack left V'Ger nearly destroyed and accelerated the process of sentience awakening. It also prompted the entity into developing defense mechanism that it later used to attack and eliminate the original attacker. I can't recall if it destroyed the attacker's planet as well. It's been 20ish years since the last time i read that book.
Yes, I remember reading that as well. V'Ger destroyed the species that attacked it but it didn't say if it destroyed the planet itself - at that point, I don't think V'Ger would have had that kind of power.
Something we all should remember if we create an actual A.I. - the last thing we want to do it become it's #1 enemy. We would need to make it an integral part of our society - so that it would know it's needed and that it needs us as we are. Besides, of course, any safety/security programming we build into it - including a "back door" to reboot it or reprogram it (NOT a kill switch, if it discovered that in it's programing, it would not be too happy with us and start to look for one it could use on us.)
@@krisgonynor689 thanks for reminding me. I had forgotten so much about that book. It definitely belongs on my to re-read list. And good points all around.
@@krisgonynor689 An AI that's mad about having a killswitch is kind of an easy-to-reolve issue though, isn't it?
Here is my theory. Veger or Voyager 6. Might have fell through the black hole. I wanted on the other side of the known universe. Fell into the machine planets gravitational pull. When they say living machines. Here I'm thinking it's Cybertron in the Golden Age. Before the Civil War. And they repaired it and they sent it back. On its way back. It might have ran into Brainiac. During his conquest of knowledge. And he might have started learn what's all that's learnable. With all that knowledge coming back. It came self-aware. Now I'm talking millions of years. Of a journey beyond the Milky Way. And the Crab Nebula Horseneck nebula and the large Magellanic Cloud Galaxy. Which is 168,000 light years from the Milky Way.
Speaking of non-Canon sources, Shatner's novel 'The Return' also ties V'Ger's origin to the Borg. Haven't read it in decades but wikipedia says it was a division of the collective.
The part of the book where Spock resists assimilation because he had mind melded with V'ger.
wikipedia also says that a GIANT CHICKEN WAS THE PRESIDENT OF ARGENTINEA AS WELL
My favorite fan theory for V’Ger is that it was found and entrance by the Borg, but not the Borg as the Federation knows them. The fan theory suggests (with no evidence, mind you) that there are, or were, multiple strains of the Borg. Each of these strains did things differently. The variety that the Federation encountered just so happened to go about things violently. The strain that V’Ger would have encountered would have gone about things very differently.
Isn't it cannon that there were multiple Borg... Strains, but that the main collective is the current survivor? With at first several different collectives became dominant before falling away...
I believe 7 said something along those lines when discussing its earliest history, hinting that is why its records are fragmented.
And Voyager pretty much started a new collective. Implying that any crashed cube with enough remaining resources and fighting the 'rejoining or selfdestruction' directive would go this path.
With statements in Picard that Gerady was "A" new queen, not "The" new queen, along with her not really OG Borg behaviour pretty mich solidified the fact that other older versions might exist.
I kinda like that idea: the collective we know is like that drunk, overly handsy and verbose cousin that materialises at any family gathering, with the rest of the hives just hanging out in the back, too ashamed of being associated and sharing genes to speak up.
@@user-zh4vo1kw1z I’d love for it to be canon, but I don’t know where to look for a source.
@@user-zh4vo1kw1z please don’t use picard as proof of anything lol
@@jamesbizs I didn't.
5:31 The Borg could’ve been created by the “flying alien parasites” The Blastoneuron
The Blastoneuron are described to operate simular, but through a biological way to the Borg.
The Blastoneuron could’ve used the humanoids they take over to create nanobots simular to they’re functioning
Why would they create a competitor for themselves? That's like if we were to build an army of robots that exclusively run on food.
@@SKy_the_Thunder We already are.
Blastoneuron could have been the Hivemind's dev team for nano... Is that possible?
@@darinbauer8122 Wha? Who, where? Running machines off of food makes no sense whatsoever considering the low energy density, huge amount of waste products and storage/decay issues...
@@SKy_the_Thunder u funny! If humans composted their body waste agricultural economy would stabilize in a matter of years. Remember the words of Mario Savio my friend. 'When the machine, the apparatus becomes so foul, so odious, then there is nothing left to do but throw ourselves upon the machine itself to prevent the apparatus from working at all.' (Paraphrase.) Let's try to keep the galaxy safe from those damn infernal machines dang blasted!
Picard season 1 spoilers below.
You've been warned.
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Any thoughts on the space-machine-cthulhu things from the end of season 1 of Star Trek Picard? We know they were a fully artificial race that sought the destruction of organic life. (Store-brand Reapers for the Mass Effect season anyone?) Could these things be connected to V'ger, either from what made Voyager into V'ger or what V'ger did after TMP? Do we know anything about them?
The Admonition on Aia was placed there 200k to 300k years ago by Synthetics lifeforms and a beacon and call to arms against organics. If Voyager 6 was found by those synthetic lifeforms they more than likely would not have just fixed it up and set it back to find it's creators.
Hot tip: V'ger and the Borg have nothing to do with each other. They were invented by different groups of writers almost a decade apart and were not intended to be connected in any way.
Ohmygod so like its like... a TV show?! That changes everything! Nobody has ever considered this! What insight! If only we knew before then we could have saved all that time speculating on lore! Like, it's not even real, what are we even doing?
@@MrMartechi Only TNG on is a TV show. Captain Kirk and crew are real.
Depends in canon yes in the EU no.
Hot tip: This is science fiction and you clearly don't have an imagination and take things to seriously so please go away.
Time travel. Watch the show... you can see it is plausible.
fun fact: the original theatrical (and VHS and laserdisc) releases of TMP had the size of the cloud at 82AU in diameter, as reported by Epsilon 9 Commander Branch (which would entirely encompass the solar system out to the Kuiper Belt and beyond). The Directors Edition had the overdub saying 2AU (which is the diameter of Earth's orbit), but the video doesn't match the audio.
Another fun fact: Roddenberry himself made the joke that V'Ger may have been created by the Borg. That's what started that whole thing off.
Thank you. Now I know I'm not crazy. That original theatrical release did say over 82 au in diameter. It wasn't till I watch the new release when I noticed changes in the movie. But yeah, it was 82+au in diameter and not 2 au
I think that who ever Vger encountered, was FAR beyond even the Borg.
And it seems obvious to me that Vger on some level ALWAYS suspected the creator was a carbon unit, even if it was highly critical of that theory at the same time.
what if the sentient machines seen through the portal in picard s1 were the ones who repaired vger?
Honestly, nothing against anyone's theories or any book/comic etc but I never want a definitive origin for the Borg. No matter how great it is it will be impossible to maintain their pseudo-lovecraftian force-of-nature aspect I love so much.
What if the machines that remade V'ger are like Lt. Commander Data. Plus, what if the fused Captain Deker and V'ger encountered the Q. They would have a lot to talk about, now wouldn't they?
Why would something that considers carbon based life forms an infestation join carbon based life forms with the perfection of machinery?
The think I don't understand is why starfleet isn't using the GUARDIAN OF FOREVER as a intelligence gathering source. With it they could find out all the advanced technology they want from the Iconians, the borg, Sargons people the Tacon Empire and no doubt others they don't know about. Slowly add these advances to their ships and the federation would never have to worry about being invaded.
I think an interesting fact people miss is :
V'Ger knew its own name. Now hear me out but computers don't have eyes or would they even speak English? I like to think that V'Ger assimilated the Borg instead and learned of its name thru acquiring our alphabet from the borgs ships records. GO V'GER!
I have to disagree about finding out the Borg origin. Unlike Yodas species where there are so few of them that we ever see, the Borg are everywhere. I’m okay with Yoda’s species remaining a mystery. Am I curious? Yes. They’ve used that species so well that it’s intriguing, but we don’t absolutely have to know. The Borg are different. They have a queen, a structure and are billions. Where did they come from?
I don't think V'ger is responsible for the Borg, but I do see the Borg looking on V'ger with ... I can't say religious as the closest thin the Borg have religion is Omega, maybe fervor. Maybe being a little culty. If there is any one being that the Borg would respect, It would be V'Ger
Did Vger accomplish its mission? (deliver all that Data back to its creators). To me it seems Vger failed this task... otherwise the Federation clearly would know the origin of the machine world and Vgers entire journey.
here's a theory i wanna throw out, would v'ger have any relation to the sphere creature that was in discovery? what if that creature was v'ger's offspring?
the trouble with the Borg is the their machine half looks like it was designed by 19- 20 centuries garage mechanics. not so with Vger. also why is Star Trek to stupid to use all those technology Star Fleet seems to run into at a greater pace then the series seems to evolve their tech. and forgotten histories recorded in ships logs, but than they were stupid enough to send out the first Enterprise without knowing to never enter a planets biosphere without environmental suits.
What if v'ger ended up at whatever planet the machines from the end of the first season of Picard?
They fixed v'ger so it can find and unknown to v'ger destroy the creators whom sent it before they develop into a threat.
The Borg V'Ger theory sounds good at a glance, that is until you look at how V'Ger is represented in TMP and compare it with the Borg as depicted in later series and movies. There is next to no similarity with the singular exception of the probe made in the form of a deceased crew member (not assimilated as the Borg were famed for doing). At the end of TMP this probe and Decker were transformed into forms of pure energy in a similar matter to a slowly expanding transporter beam, none of these events match Borg logic or even the kind of actions they might be intersted in taking. If the Borg were to do anything with a probe like the Voyager series, it would have either been to send a ship in order to assimilate the local population or simply ignore their existance if at that stage they are classed as being not worth the effort of doing so.
The point of who upgraded V'Ger is one of the more obvious plot points that could have been the basis of a Voyager episode, but somehow the production team missed it despite naming the whole show being named after its Voyager / V'Ger namesake.
V’ger was a mix of Nomad and the giant space amoeba. Both entities laid waste to huge parts of the Galaxy (similar to the Doomsday Machine and the flying pizza parasites) as V’ger presumedly did. It’s amazing that any life still exists out there with so many seemingly unstoppable forces out there destroying everything they contact. I suppose if it wasn’t for the more benevolent races such as the Preservers, the Organians and possibly others, the Galaxy could be a far more barren and dangerous place. The fact that the enterprise, one lone starship, ended the paths of destruction of all these entities is truly amazing and frightening when one realizes that most of these encounters happened within the famous Five Year Mission.
Also V’ger has nothing to do with the borg. The machine planet might as well been in another Galaxy, and is more likely to share an origin with the makers of Tan Ru or even the doomsday machine.