As someone who manages a cafe, I’m always looking to keep the bar flow approachable and simple. We just got some Pullman 876s and I think that’s as far as the cafe will go. We value service and consistency. These baskets seem like they are marketed towards boutique cafes with room for experimentation. Totally fine, just not everyone’s cup.
Lence Hedrick made a bigger comparison from pullman to 3000 hole ones and found above 1000-1200 holes there are diminishing returns. Only for cafes maybe worth, because of time reduction(and no quality reduction). I recommend you check out.
Or for hobbyists that are looking to mess around. Better to watch someone else go through the testing and shot pulling than to drop $200 a basket and do it myself.
Gonna echo what other people are saying: thank you for always making content that’s put into simple practical layman’s terms. Not everyone cares to know the minute details of the latest coffee trends so always nice to have a voice that cuts to the chase. Did you notice any issues of grounds getting clogged in the tiny holes? I’d also be curious about underdosing with a finer grind to get similar results as a conventionally prepped shot. Saw a random comment on Reddit I think say they did something like 12g doses in their cafe that’s been working well in their setting.
Thanks Andrew. That what I aim to do. I did get some clogging early on, but they recommend taking them out and knocking the pucks out and flushing with hot water quickly, and that seemed to keep them pretty clear. But still hard to avoid and impossible to clean without an ultrasonic. In terms of underdosing, the minimum I tested was 16g, and like any of the other doses and tests I did the results were mixed. Some shots were good, others, not so much. The inconsistencies were what would hold me back, especially in a cafe setting where consistency is very important.
I have SOE Spirit and I was constantly getting grounds clogged regardless of grind size. It is such a tedious and unpleasant process having to unclog this basket after each shot. Best method I found in a forum was to use flame to literally burn the grounds out which worked really well but did discolor my basket so I don't know if it's safe to do routinely after each shot. I've resorted to using bottom paper filters to prevent clogging, but WAFO states that these baskets should not use paper filters so I think this basket was a waste of $200 for me...
@@Sprometheus Really good to know. However, in a coffee shop environment, even a quick water flush to unplug holes, wipe and dry procedure is going to add to the time it takes a barista to crank out each drink. You want things that speed the process, not slow it down.
Wafo had some trouble explaining the "science" behind those baskets as there simply is none. They just made some fancy unique designs that no one really needs. This continues with the crazy idea of a "Wafo workflow". I mean, why would someone use a recipe for a basket? Brewing recipes should depend on the beans, roast, etc. All in all, they seem dubious not only for me. It seems that they just wanted to compete with other ultra-precision basket manufacturers but they don’t deliver any value for the price. The sworksdesign basket for example gave me some of the best and fruitiest shots in terms of clarity I’ve had so far...
The more I dive into this, the more I realize all hobbies have their bullshit. For audio, it's cables worth multiple thousands of dollars, massive amount of "burn in", etc. For espresso, snob baskets (among other things, I'm sure).
The biggest scam in espresso imo is wedge distrution tools. Needle distribution is all you need, wedge distribution doesn’t do anything. There’s also Weber and Craig Lyn who try to make needle distribution sound like snake oil to sell their own overpriced snake oil tumblers.
@@mumenrider677 Height settable wedge distribution tool could be useful. If you set the right height, it will do consistent "nutation tamping" for a set dose, tamping the puck with sideway forces that normal straight tamping does not. This compacts the puck better letting you grind coarser, giving you more room to play with. I thought it was a scam too till recent. This is the biggest actual scam BS as if there is gonna be free flowing turbulent water through high resistance/compacted coffee puck lofl
@@bbbo85 99% of wedge tools aren't height adjustable. I've never heard of that type of tamping, do you have a video or a source that talks about it with proof that it makes a difference? I'm open minded about it and curious, but I need more info to be convinced
I have soe/spirit basket and i pretty happy with the results, best shots ever, BUT i started to pull great shot when i moved away from wafo recomendations, i use a paper filter, a metal puck, 93 C and the best shots where with ratio 1:2,2, mainly 19 gr, the only recommendation i’m agree is with the 6 seg of preinfusion and 6 bar of extraction, great vídeo spro, and would be great if you add another with your own recipe using this baskets
As P.T. Barnum once said, "There's a sucker born every minute." IMO mostly hopeful, clever marketing. This was a well-done review that hit good points . Your impartiality intact. Many thanks for your reviews.
Thank you for your time and effort, reviewing the upper high end of espresso tools. Especially the comparison with the paper workflow I found most interesting. When you found out about the bitterness connected to the WAFO baskets, did you try lowering the temperature substantially? Like pulling a turbo shot in the 85°C range? The idea behind is that the WAFO allow for more even extractions due to their holes/slots until the basket walls. So, you might have gotten less combination of over- and under extraction when compared to your standard basket shots, resulting in an overall over-extraction. So, lowering the temp could counteract this. I would be very interested in further temperature experiments with the WAFO baskets... ;)
Haha yeah I mean it’s all pretty subjective, and I think the Italians did a great job laying out the basics of espresso, but love to see it become a global culture with unique ideas and techniques coming into play.
No. However good these baskets might be (which they're probably not), they're not worth 200 USD. WAFO being able to charge this ridiculous price is because people with more money than sense actually pay for them. I guess what the brand did was basically instead of pricing at an 'expensive', say, $70, might as well charge $200 and throw in some extremely vague marketing material. Give out free ones for people to 'review' and build up the hype on social media to lure people in.
@@Dwyane1st I agree with you on the value part. But would stop short of calling it a scam. There are those unlike us that would obviously chase the latest trend
@stinkykd1 ya missing my point mate. I'm not stopping anyone from buying them, or shaming anyone who did. Who am I to do that? It's just at this moment no manufacturing process is complicated or precise enough to justify any company's pricing strategy of charging $200 for a portafilter basket to 'make a profit'. The only reason I can think of that justifies it would be a basket made out of precious metal. But that would be ridiculous on so many other levels. I digress. Companies that attempt to exploit consumers with questionable products, vague marketing and outrageous price tags should be exposed and stopped.
@@phillydelphia83 yeah mate I'm with you. As much as it is attempting, I didn't call WAFO a scam. It's just that the combo of questionable product and vague marketing makes them real sus.
Excellent job leaving an honest review on a product that might not have been your "cup of tea". Very tastefully done. And that's the last subtle espresso pun I can whip up under pressure..
We have actually moved over completely to WAFO baskets at the shop I run. We've done so much testing against 'standard' baskets and the difference between both were night and day (In a good way too) - We've found these are really forgiving with most coffees. I could go on and on and on about the testing we've done lol
Forgot to add - we use a blend of a Natural Brazil Mundo Novo & Natural Ethiopian Heirloom as our house spro. But we have noticed for our guest spro it's been super forgiving with lighter denser coffees
@YOYO MA so we tested across all boards. Consistency of extraction across different coffees w/ various processing - to see which basket works best with what style of extraction and coffee. A major one as we are using them in a shop was how forgiving they are when dialling in too
Great video. You brought up the concerns that many had about Wafo's extraction claims as well as did a comparison vs the Pullman basket + paper filter. The Pullman combo, for me, has produced high and even extractions (measured via vst refractometer) and resulted in the best taste. I hope you get your hands on the Weber unibasket. The design seems to be more in line with current extraction theory.
Thanks Nick! I appreciate that, and my experience has echoed yours all the way down to testing extraction. As the other commenter said, I won’t buy any Weber products after my nightmare of an experience with them from build quality to customer service. Essentially the only way I’ll review it is if I can borrow one from someone locally as I won’t give Weber a single cent of my money.
@@Sprometheus my favorite aspect about you and your channel is that you tell is how it is even if it isn"t favorable to potential sponsors. Never change.
Fantastic breakdown and testing my friend!!! Like you said breaking the rules can lead to some great discoveries but general extraction theory is pretty consistent. So while some of these new and innovative products are really unique and the quality seems next level, is it worth it?
Part of why we make espresso at home is because we want the best taste. If cafes start using these for 'faster shots' and the coffee tastes less nuanced and more bitter... they'll just lose discerning customers and suddenly no longer NEED that 'faster' workflow. Thanks for helping me not have FOMO over these $200 wastes of money baskets.
Nice video! I've wanted to test them but hesitated to spend the $200 per basket. For me I think of price as "how much better espresso does this get me" and if these baskets improved extraction yields by a decent amount, I would be on board.
Do you regularly brew with a paper filter? I'm still experimenting there as I have to grind much finer in order to get a good shot, otherwise it pulls waaay too fast. I'm using a flair 58 with the straight wall IMS basket ☕
Thanks for the video, Spro! I saw those types of baskets first from Weber and they got me really interested, as I like light to medium roasts. From a water flow perspective, having a basket that has many small holes reaching all the way to the edge seems to make sense in terms of extraction evenness. Your video makes me sceptical whether the 150+ bucks are really going to bring an improvement.
If you aren’t already doing this, the Pullman 876 + Gagné style paper sandwich will be the biggest bang for your buck improvement wrt to your basket. For the relatively cheap cost and ease of use, the results are immediate and noticeable
I was really hoping to get your two cents on these baskets. I always appreciate that you can be so objective in your reviews, even if you yourself aren’t a big fan of the product.
Thanks J.R., yeah I mean I know there are folks who love them. So I’m not here to diminish their experiences, or even speak poorly on the brand. I just wanted to give my two cents on the topic. Glad that feeling came through.
Have you also tried the Sworks designs baskets or the Weber Unifilter or Unibasket? I just started playing with the Unifilter but not sure about it yet. Haven't done any side by side tests vs The Pullman or Decent baskets.
So far I like it for filming as the screen isn’t as hard to capture on camera (flickering etc) but it is a bit slower as weight is added. But it performs essentially the same. But I’ve had my Lunar for 7 years and had no issues so it’s got big shoes to fill.
Weird they'd recommend such a high temperature, I wonder what machine they were using to test their stuff with! I kinda agree about the shot timing thing, the desired weight / brew ratio in the cup makes more of an impact than the shot time, but shot time is a good indicator of whether your grind size is way too fine or coarse, so it's still good to use as a guide in that way.
Interesting findings! Did you compare TDS/EY between Wafo and traditional baskets? Maybe the Wafo does increase some kind of (micro) channeling thus over extraction?
I tested extractions randomly throughout, and found the WAFO baskets did extract more, they averaged around 23-24% while my IMS and Pullman hit around 20-21%. I don’t know exactly why the WAFO baskets seemed to over extract, but the fast even flow rate I think definitely plays a part, as the Pullman with a paper filter and the WAFO were neck and neck with extraction. But still the Pullman tasted better. I think in the end it all comes down to the users preferences and palate.
@@Sprometheus did you ever taste astringency in turbo shots? If not, maybe fine grind and fast flow rate result in more astringent cups. Based on my experiments with fine grinds, this might be where the problem occurs from
About the Wafo baskets, so far I had the comment from other channels and from people who participated Dave's sessions personally: 1) You shouldn't compare the result with the standard espresso, just treat it as some other coffee beverage 2) You'll need very carefully picked beans (no defect, no quakers, ...) to produce a good result, basically it expands the taste notes, both good and bad 3) It's a lot more difficult to tune a shot. If you change your coffee beans weekly/monthly, you'll need to drop notes for each and even tune for different batch 4) For niche and high end cafes (you can afford to test and tune a shot according to the taste profile of a customer, or at least spend time/beans to tune every batch for best result) this will benefit a lot. For cafe that only focus on consistency of each drink it is not a preferred choice as Wafo can produce unwanted result for some
None of this was on the website or said to be from Dave in our direct conversations. But, I will say when you place finely ground coffee in a basket and brew it under pressure it's hard to not consider it espresso. And as if brewing coffee isn't detailed enough, picking quakers out and jumping through even more hoops to get a $200 accessory to work properly is far too much to ask of me, and I'm sure many other hobbyists and professionals alike.
@@Sprometheus To clarify the opinion was not from Dave or Wafo, they're just personal opinion from other commentary or person who attended those sessions. Wafo markets these baskets as espresso baskets and push their use in commercial environment. I'll update my comment to avoid such confusion. Yes what you say is exactly what I think! For a high end commercial setting, one may be able to afford $15/100g beans, picking ideal beans, and test 10 times until a god shot is found for a batch. Once the best method is found they can charge the consumer like $10+ per shot to cover the cost. However in a home setup, the cost per gram is likely doubled for CoE / 90+ beans, and it doesn't make sense to waste 100g per batch just to find out the best brew method. Picking out "not-ideal" beans should not be a home user's concern or workflow too... That's why easier to archive methods like the filter paper is more preferable!
I use the baskets exclusively, but I use more traditional norms on brew (e.g. 204F, 20-30 secs extraction). The overall experience is better and I get cleaner extraction every time, vs VST where I would get much more channeling and uneven extraction. $200 is a hefty amount, but I take the recommended settings from WAFO as a starting point and then you dial it in the way you want. Great video!
I absolutely had a better experience as I moved away from their recommendations, but didn’t find the good extractions better than what I would get from my Pullman. I didn’t test it against the VST as I couldn’t find it, and then just found it a couple days ago in the freezer haha. That said, I’m glad to hear guide enjoying them as they are definitely an investment!
@@Sprometheus some of them were a bit of a head scratcher, but overall, I like the baskets. They are supposedly releasing a 25g basket, too. Regardless, amazing content and the time and effort you put in. 👍👍
Interesting, given your bar I find this very surprising. Overall, I think folks taking a traditional approach to a non-traditional basket may be in for some hard times. I also think WAFO's recommendations set folks up for that exact scenario too. I've had my SOE/Spirit for 4 months now, and I have to say it went from NOT WORTH IT to oh man, HOW COULD I GO BACK to the traditional baskets. The turning point in taste for me was using more grinds, less heat, (around 96 C) and depending on roast/roaster playing a bit with flow control. My workflow right now is 19g in, 48gs out (light-medium roasts that have rested about 3 weeks). I hit it with 9 bars to start (about a 6-10 sec preinfusion), then at 30g out, I decrease the flow until 48g output. Haven't had a overextracted or too bright of a shot once I started experimenting with what I had at my disposal. Tweak slightly for each roast. (For fruitier roasts I just leave it at 9 bars start to finish. Has a nice juicy pop to it.) I get a sweet shot with a bit of clarity and a bit of body. A nice balance of modern and traditional mouthfeel.
Probably the most negative review i’ve seen of the Wafo baskets which is interesting (in a good way) since a majority of reviews seem to be mostly positive. I enjoyed this weeks dose of sprometheus
Thanks Allen. And I personally haven’t watched in depth into others thoughts and feelings on these baskets beyond skimming, to avoid having any sort of thoughts placed in my head about them. I just want to provide my own, unaffected opinions. But with that said, I do know some folks are into them, they’re just not for me.
It seems like a lot; but I’ve never tried to CNC or build anything like that, especially in pretty small numbers. But I have no idea on how the pricing was calculated.
@@Sprometheus I understand you, really, but! This pricing is evidence, FOR ME, of bad approach, which do not bring nothing good to coffee lovers. or something really good for coffee extraction. If they did something crazy good, and really better tasting, than they would sell more quantity and pricing could would be lover, so that is a fair, to the customer, business plan ... They made STATU basket , and also a mental placebo basket, if you paid for a basket so much, you really need to be honest to yourself, brave to say my old Pullman, VST or ,also too expensive, Decent basket are better tasting easier to dial...
Je ne pense pas dépenser un jour 200 £/€ pour ces paniers. Non pas que je n'en ai pas les moyens, mais le résultat aléatoire m'en écarte. Oui, beaucoup de producteurs de vidéo sont amoureux de ces paniers. Est ce l'effet placebo ❓ 🤣 Merci pour votre franchise 👍
The WAFO recommendations are soooo off. I have Weber Unibasket and my impression is that you should go in opposite direction in temp. The basket should be well filled in. I use mesh screen on top and paper filter at the bottom (the latter probably is completely not needed).
Just here for the coffee p0rn. Hadn't heard of Wafo, but my 15gm VST basket is perfect for my needs. I'm not a coffee explorer. I'm a grail coffee basker. I'm living my perfect cup dream, twice a day, every day.
I have had a very different experience than you over all of these baskets. Based on your experiences I've had the exact opposite experience to the point I'm curious where we differ so much.
Considering Dave at WAFO straight up told me that a little less than half of those who try them don’t like them, my guess is the voices who do are much louder, and likely have broader reach.
@@Sprometheus sorry I'm a bit confused. The people who don't like them have more reach and are louder? Or the people who do like them have wider reach and are louder?
I could think "ok another product that may someone will find interesting and some other indifferent, just like leveling tools that i sincerely think that are useless BUT when you charge 200 for a basket that it's not guaranteed that you will have better cup, and the most expensive after that costs 4 time less(VST), irritates me to have a flame comment about this product I think there is no need to talk more
Yeah it’s definitely hard to guarantee something will make anything “better” and I think they dodge that by not going that route in their marketing. But it’s a hard sell.
I have a son?! :o And he's bald? No man... The reason I clicked on this video is that I think I've watched every single video on youtube that might be just slightly relevant to me. This is what's left now. I have no idea what a wafo is and I have a feeling that I'll never even see one in my life.
You made the same mistake as Karl Marx. Additional labor doesn't add value unless it produces a better product. The fact that these are machined doesn't make a bit of difference unless it results in a better cup of coffee. About the price, it's just a matter of how much $200 is to you. For me, it's a couple of weeks of "mad money", for a friend of mine it's what he makes in 6 minutes at his work. The product isn't aimed at poors like me, but that's fine, lots of people with lots of money like to spend it on toys.
Normcore has a knock off of the Waco Workflow and it has mixed reviews, people are stating that the holes get clogged with grounds and that they are hard to clean. At least for the Normcore’s $35 they include filter papers as well as a puck screen.
Summing up. These "super baskets" are a novel way to separate people from their money. Other than the normal OEM double basket, my Gaggia Classic produces outstanding espresso shots using a $7 Breville OEM, 58 mm double basket. Go figure.....
As someone who manages a cafe, I’m always looking to keep the bar flow approachable and simple. We just got some Pullman 876s and I think that’s as far as the cafe will go. We value service and consistency. These baskets seem like they are marketed towards boutique cafes with room for experimentation. Totally fine, just not everyone’s cup.
Lence Hedrick made a bigger comparison from pullman to 3000 hole ones and found above 1000-1200 holes there are diminishing returns. Only for cafes maybe worth, because of time reduction(and no quality reduction). I recommend you check out.
Or for hobbyists that are looking to mess around. Better to watch someone else go through the testing and shot pulling than to drop $200 a basket and do it myself.
VTS with paper filter is the way to go
Thank you for your work, no bias, no complicated words, purely professionalism
Thank you my friend, I appreciate the kind words.
Gonna echo what other people are saying: thank you for always making content that’s put into simple practical layman’s terms. Not everyone cares to know the minute details of the latest coffee trends so always nice to have a voice that cuts to the chase.
Did you notice any issues of grounds getting clogged in the tiny holes? I’d also be curious about underdosing with a finer grind to get similar results as a conventionally prepped shot. Saw a random comment on Reddit I think say they did something like 12g doses in their cafe that’s been working well in their setting.
Thanks Andrew. That what I aim to do.
I did get some clogging early on, but they recommend taking them out and knocking the pucks out and flushing with hot water quickly, and that seemed to keep them pretty clear. But still hard to avoid and impossible to clean without an ultrasonic.
In terms of underdosing, the minimum I tested was 16g, and like any of the other doses and tests I did the results were mixed. Some shots were good, others, not so much. The inconsistencies were what would hold me back, especially in a cafe setting where consistency is very important.
I have SOE Spirit and I was constantly getting grounds clogged regardless of grind size. It is such a tedious and unpleasant process having to unclog this basket after each shot. Best method I found in a forum was to use flame to literally burn the grounds out which worked really well but did discolor my basket so I don't know if it's safe to do routinely after each shot. I've resorted to using bottom paper filters to prevent clogging, but WAFO states that these baskets should not use paper filters so I think this basket was a waste of $200 for me...
@@Sprometheus Really good to know. However, in a coffee shop environment, even a quick water flush to unplug holes, wipe and dry procedure is going to add to the time it takes a barista to crank out each drink. You want things that speed the process, not slow it down.
Yeah, the only way these are useable for me is with a paper filter. Unclogging these filters is a pain.
Thank you for being honest and not beholden to a company. Please never lose this trait. Just subbed to channel!
Thank you for your time reviewing these and producing a balanced review.
Of course, thanks for watching and taking the time to comment!
That’s what I thought as well.
Wafo had some trouble explaining the "science" behind those baskets as there simply is none. They just made some fancy unique designs that no one really needs. This continues with the crazy idea of a "Wafo workflow". I mean, why would someone use a recipe for a basket? Brewing recipes should depend on the beans, roast, etc. All in all, they seem dubious not only for me. It seems that they just wanted to compete with other ultra-precision basket manufacturers but they don’t deliver any value for the price. The sworksdesign basket for example gave me some of the best and fruitiest shots in terms of clarity I’ve had so far...
Biased. More holes = higher extraction. If your coffee doesn’t taste good, the disgusting flavor gets amplified. Hence worse results. Lower extraction baskets taste better for shittier coffees and thats facts
The more I dive into this, the more I realize all hobbies have their bullshit. For audio, it's cables worth multiple thousands of dollars, massive amount of "burn in", etc. For espresso, snob baskets (among other things, I'm sure).
The biggest scam in espresso imo is wedge distrution tools. Needle distribution is all you need, wedge distribution doesn’t do anything. There’s also Weber and Craig Lyn who try to make needle distribution sound like snake oil to sell their own overpriced snake oil tumblers.
@@mumenrider677 Height settable wedge distribution tool could be useful. If you set the right height, it will do consistent "nutation tamping" for a set dose, tamping the puck with sideway forces that normal straight tamping does not. This compacts the puck better letting you grind coarser, giving you more room to play with. I thought it was a scam too till recent.
This is the biggest actual scam BS as if there is gonna be free flowing turbulent water through high resistance/compacted coffee puck lofl
@@mumenrider677Can confirm, have a wedge. Barely ever use it anymore.
What cables for audio are costing thousands btw?
@@bbbo85 99% of wedge tools aren't height adjustable. I've never heard of that type of tamping, do you have a video or a source that talks about it with proof that it makes a difference? I'm open minded about it and curious, but I need more info to be convinced
I have soe/spirit basket and i pretty happy with the results, best shots ever, BUT i started to pull great shot when i moved away from wafo recomendations, i use a paper filter, a metal puck, 93 C and the best shots where with ratio 1:2,2, mainly 19 gr, the only recommendation i’m agree is with the 6 seg of preinfusion and 6 bar of extraction, great vídeo spro, and would be great if you add another with your own recipe using this baskets
This was a much clearer review of the baskets than any other ive seen online, so thank you.
Thanks Rodrigo, glad you enjoyed.
As P.T. Barnum once said, "There's a sucker born every minute." IMO mostly hopeful, clever marketing. This was a well-done review that hit good points . Your impartiality intact. Many thanks for your reviews.
this is such a clear and fantastic video man, very much impressed with the consistent high quality of your content!!😁😁
Thank you for your time and effort, reviewing the upper high end of espresso tools. Especially the comparison with the paper workflow I found most interesting. When you found out about the bitterness connected to the WAFO baskets, did you try lowering the temperature substantially? Like pulling a turbo shot in the 85°C range? The idea behind is that the WAFO allow for more even extractions due to their holes/slots until the basket walls. So, you might have gotten less combination of over- and under extraction when compared to your standard basket shots, resulting in an overall over-extraction. So, lowering the temp could counteract this. I would be very interested in further temperature experiments with the WAFO baskets... ;)
Do love your videos and how honest and analytical you are. Seriously looking forward to your Sanremo You video with money at the ready haha
Thank you so much for this review!! I was ready to hear this because I had already assumed italians were already doing things well enough.
Haha yeah I mean it’s all pretty subjective, and I think the Italians did a great job laying out the basics of espresso, but love to see it become a global culture with unique ideas and techniques coming into play.
No. However good these baskets might be (which they're probably not), they're not worth 200 USD. WAFO being able to charge this ridiculous price is because people with more money than sense actually pay for them. I guess what the brand did was basically instead of pricing at an 'expensive', say, $70, might as well charge $200 and throw in some extremely vague marketing material. Give out free ones for people to 'review' and build up the hype on social media to lure people in.
Your guess is as good as mine. I try to approach new things with an open mind, and give them the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.
If they aren't in your budget, then simply don't purchase them. Why gatekeep how other people spend their money on their hobby?
@@Dwyane1st I agree with you on the value part. But would stop short of calling it a scam. There are those unlike us that would obviously chase the latest trend
@stinkykd1 ya missing my point mate. I'm not stopping anyone from buying them, or shaming anyone who did. Who am I to do that? It's just at this moment no manufacturing process is complicated or precise enough to justify any company's pricing strategy of charging $200 for a portafilter basket to 'make a profit'. The only reason I can think of that justifies it would be a basket made out of precious metal. But that would be ridiculous on so many other levels. I digress. Companies that attempt to exploit consumers with questionable products, vague marketing and outrageous price tags should be exposed and stopped.
@@phillydelphia83 yeah mate I'm with you. As much as it is attempting, I didn't call WAFO a scam. It's just that the combo of questionable product and vague marketing makes them real sus.
Excellent job leaving an honest review on a product that might not have been your "cup of tea". Very tastefully done. And that's the last subtle espresso pun I can whip up under pressure..
This was the most polite trashing of a product I've seen! 😄
We have actually moved over completely to WAFO baskets at the shop I run. We've done so much testing against 'standard' baskets and the difference between both were night and day (In a good way too) - We've found these are really forgiving with most coffees. I could go on and on and on about the testing we've done lol
Forgot to add - we use a blend of a Natural Brazil Mundo Novo & Natural Ethiopian Heirloom as our house spro. But we have noticed for our guest spro it's been super forgiving with lighter denser coffees
@@finbirch372 Which of the baskets to you use?
@@matthewhoffman6868 We have 3 of the soe classic and 2 of the blend
@@finbirch372 Thanks for the reply. I have the four-step blend, and I'm trying to figure out which coffees it is best for.
@YOYO MA so we tested across all boards. Consistency of extraction across different coffees w/ various processing - to see which basket works best with what style of extraction and coffee. A major one as we are using them in a shop was how forgiving they are when dialling in too
Great video. You brought up the concerns that many had about Wafo's extraction claims as well as did a comparison vs the Pullman basket + paper filter. The Pullman combo, for me, has produced high and even extractions (measured via vst refractometer) and resulted in the best taste. I hope you get your hands on the Weber unibasket. The design seems to be more in line with current extraction theory.
He will not touch any of Weber's stuff
Thanks Nick! I appreciate that, and my experience has echoed yours all the way down to testing extraction.
As the other commenter said, I won’t buy any Weber products after my nightmare of an experience with them from build quality to customer service. Essentially the only way I’ll review it is if I can borrow one from someone locally as I won’t give Weber a single cent of my money.
@@Sprometheus my favorite aspect about you and your channel is that you tell is how it is even if it isn"t favorable to potential sponsors. Never change.
Thank you my friend.
Have yourself a great weekend.
Thanks Cheekster, you as well!
Again a good video. Please what Filter do you use in your pullmann baskets?
Fantastic breakdown and testing my friend!!! Like you said breaking the rules can lead to some great discoveries but general extraction theory is pretty consistent. So while some of these new and innovative products are really unique and the quality seems next level, is it worth it?
Part of why we make espresso at home is because we want the best taste. If cafes start using these for 'faster shots' and the coffee tastes less nuanced and more bitter... they'll just lose discerning customers and suddenly no longer NEED that 'faster' workflow.
Thanks for helping me not have FOMO over these $200 wastes of money baskets.
I’m perfectly happy with my Pullman, seems like a good balance
Yeah, I enjoy my Pullman and even my IMS baskets.
Nice video! I've wanted to test them but hesitated to spend the $200 per basket. For me I think of price as "how much better espresso does this get me" and if these baskets improved extraction yields by a decent amount, I would be on board.
Do you regularly brew with a paper filter? I'm still experimenting there as I have to grind much finer in order to get a good shot, otherwise it pulls waaay too fast. I'm using a flair 58 with the straight wall IMS basket ☕
Thanks for the video, Spro! I saw those types of baskets first from Weber and they got me really interested, as I like light to medium roasts. From a water flow perspective, having a basket that has many small holes reaching all the way to the edge seems to make sense in terms of extraction evenness. Your video makes me sceptical whether the 150+ bucks are really going to bring an improvement.
If you aren’t already doing this, the Pullman 876 + Gagné style paper sandwich will be the biggest bang for your buck improvement wrt to your basket. For the relatively cheap cost and ease of use, the results are immediate and noticeable
I was really hoping to get your two cents on these baskets. I always appreciate that you can be so objective in your reviews, even if you yourself aren’t a big fan of the product.
Thanks J.R., yeah I mean I know there are folks who love them. So I’m not here to diminish their experiences, or even speak poorly on the brand. I just wanted to give my two cents on the topic. Glad that feeling came through.
Have you also tried the Sworks designs baskets or the Weber Unifilter or Unibasket? I just started playing with the Unifilter but not sure about it yet. Haven't done any side by side tests vs The Pullman or Decent baskets.
what a great transition to the ad
How do you like that scale compared to the lunar?
So far I like it for filming as the screen isn’t as hard to capture on camera (flickering etc) but it is a bit slower as weight is added. But it performs essentially the same. But I’ve had my Lunar for 7 years and had no issues so it’s got big shoes to fill.
@@Sprometheus thank you for the fast response I’ll probably shell out for the lunar since everyone says it’s been lasting them years! Thanks
Weird they'd recommend such a high temperature, I wonder what machine they were using to test their stuff with! I kinda agree about the shot timing thing, the desired weight / brew ratio in the cup makes more of an impact than the shot time, but shot time is a good indicator of whether your grind size is way too fine or coarse, so it's still good to use as a guide in that way.
Personally I prefer Eggo Wafos
A little sizzurp and a slab of buttah and it’s jover.
Interesting findings! Did you compare TDS/EY between Wafo and traditional baskets? Maybe the Wafo does increase some kind of (micro) channeling thus over extraction?
I tested extractions randomly throughout, and found the WAFO baskets did extract more, they averaged around 23-24% while my IMS and Pullman hit around 20-21%. I don’t know exactly why the WAFO baskets seemed to over extract, but the fast even flow rate I think definitely plays a part, as the Pullman with a paper filter and the WAFO were neck and neck with extraction. But still the Pullman tasted better. I think in the end it all comes down to the users preferences and palate.
@@Sprometheus did you ever taste astringency in turbo shots? If not, maybe fine grind and fast flow rate result in more astringent cups.
Based on my experiments with fine grinds, this might be where the problem occurs from
About the Wafo baskets, so far I had the comment from other channels and from people who participated Dave's sessions personally:
1) You shouldn't compare the result with the standard espresso, just treat it as some other coffee beverage
2) You'll need very carefully picked beans (no defect, no quakers, ...) to produce a good result, basically it expands the taste notes, both good and bad
3) It's a lot more difficult to tune a shot. If you change your coffee beans weekly/monthly, you'll need to drop notes for each and even tune for different batch
4) For niche and high end cafes (you can afford to test and tune a shot according to the taste profile of a customer, or at least spend time/beans to tune every batch for best result) this will benefit a lot. For cafe that only focus on consistency of each drink it is not a preferred choice as Wafo can produce unwanted result for some
None of this was on the website or said to be from Dave in our direct conversations. But, I will say when you place finely ground coffee in a basket and brew it under pressure it's hard to not consider it espresso. And as if brewing coffee isn't detailed enough, picking quakers out and jumping through even more hoops to get a $200 accessory to work properly is far too much to ask of me, and I'm sure many other hobbyists and professionals alike.
@@Sprometheus To clarify the opinion was not from Dave or Wafo, they're just personal opinion from other commentary or person who attended those sessions. Wafo markets these baskets as espresso baskets and push their use in commercial environment. I'll update my comment to avoid such confusion.
Yes what you say is exactly what I think! For a high end commercial setting, one may be able to afford $15/100g beans, picking ideal beans, and test 10 times until a god shot is found for a batch. Once the best method is found they can charge the consumer like $10+ per shot to cover the cost.
However in a home setup, the cost per gram is likely doubled for CoE / 90+ beans, and it doesn't make sense to waste 100g per batch just to find out the best brew method. Picking out "not-ideal" beans should not be a home user's concern or workflow too... That's why easier to archive methods like the filter paper is more preferable!
I use the baskets exclusively, but I use more traditional norms on brew (e.g. 204F, 20-30 secs extraction). The overall experience is better and I get cleaner extraction every time, vs VST where I would get much more channeling and uneven extraction. $200 is a hefty amount, but I take the recommended settings from WAFO as a starting point and then you dial it in the way you want. Great video!
I absolutely had a better experience as I moved away from their recommendations, but didn’t find the good extractions better than what I would get from my Pullman. I didn’t test it against the VST as I couldn’t find it, and then just found it a couple days ago in the freezer haha. That said, I’m glad to hear guide enjoying them as they are definitely an investment!
@@Sprometheus some of them were a bit of a head scratcher, but overall, I like the baskets. They are supposedly releasing a 25g basket, too. Regardless, amazing content and the time and effort you put in. 👍👍
Interesting, given your bar I find this very surprising. Overall, I think folks taking a traditional approach to a non-traditional basket may be in for some hard times. I also think WAFO's recommendations set folks up for that exact scenario too.
I've had my SOE/Spirit for 4 months now, and I have to say it went from NOT WORTH IT to oh man, HOW COULD I GO BACK to the traditional baskets. The turning point in taste for me was using more grinds, less heat, (around 96 C) and depending on roast/roaster playing a bit with flow control.
My workflow right now is 19g in, 48gs out (light-medium roasts that have rested about 3 weeks). I hit it with 9 bars to start (about a 6-10 sec preinfusion), then at 30g out, I decrease the flow until 48g output. Haven't had a overextracted or too bright of a shot once I started experimenting with what I had at my disposal. Tweak slightly for each roast. (For fruitier roasts I just leave it at 9 bars start to finish. Has a nice juicy pop to it.) I get a sweet shot with a bit of clarity and a bit of body. A nice balance of modern and traditional mouthfeel.
I just want to know what the best general use basket is? I can’t keep using my stock stuff
My personal preference is the basic IMS competition basket
Why you gotta do me like that in the first 10 seconds, dude...
Sometimes I just gotta call it like I see it.
Probably the most negative review i’ve seen of the Wafo baskets which is interesting (in a good way) since a majority of reviews seem to be mostly positive. I enjoyed this weeks dose of sprometheus
Thanks Allen. And I personally haven’t watched in depth into others thoughts and feelings on these baskets beyond skimming, to avoid having any sort of thoughts placed in my head about them. I just want to provide my own, unaffected opinions. But with that said, I do know some folks are into them, they’re just not for me.
Thanks for keeping brief
Try the Pesado High Exstraction basket :-) I had the VST precision 18g filterbasket, but prefer the Pesado!
That glass carafe, though! What is it?
That’s the Sense carafe from Orea.
200 USD for a basket is crazy, no go, no matter how much of engineering and materials...
It seems like a lot; but I’ve never tried to CNC or build anything like that, especially in pretty small numbers. But I have no idea on how the pricing was calculated.
@@Sprometheus I understand you, really, but! This pricing is evidence, FOR ME, of bad approach, which do not bring nothing good to coffee lovers. or something really good for coffee extraction. If they did something crazy good, and really better tasting, than they would sell more quantity and pricing could would be lover, so that is a fair, to the customer, business plan ... They made STATU basket , and also a mental placebo basket, if you paid for a basket so much, you really need to be honest to yourself, brave to say my old Pullman, VST or ,also too expensive, Decent basket are better tasting easier to dial...
@Sprometheus CNC is typically a pretty pricey process, from what I understand.
Sprometheus: “Or you’re my mom”
Me: Hello sweetie
Je ne pense pas dépenser un jour 200 £/€ pour ces paniers. Non pas que je n'en ai pas les moyens, mais le résultat aléatoire m'en écarte. Oui, beaucoup de producteurs de vidéo sont amoureux de ces paniers. Est ce l'effet placebo ❓ 🤣
Merci pour votre franchise 👍
The WAFO recommendations are soooo off. I have Weber Unibasket and my impression is that you should go in opposite direction in temp. The basket should be well filled in. I use mesh screen on top and paper filter at the bottom (the latter probably is completely not needed).
Hi Son, great video! Love, mom.
Mom you’re on your sock account again…
We're at an inflection point where coffee will soon become like the snake oil pervaded world of audiophile
SproMom "You're looking skinny are you eating?"
Great job!
Just here for the coffee p0rn. Hadn't heard of Wafo, but my 15gm VST basket is perfect for my needs. I'm not a coffee explorer. I'm a grail coffee basker. I'm living my perfect cup dream, twice a day, every day.
The sections aren't working by the way, just letting you know!
Hmm, they’re working for me, and I’m on Safari, which is by far the worst browser haha.
I have had a very different experience than you over all of these baskets. Based on your experiences I've had the exact opposite experience to the point I'm curious where we differ so much.
Considering Dave at WAFO straight up told me that a little less than half of those who try them don’t like them, my guess is the voices who do are much louder, and likely have broader reach.
@@Sprometheus sorry I'm a bit confused.
The people who don't like them have more reach and are louder?
Or the people who do like them have wider reach and are louder?
@@skatcat31 the people who do like them.
3ks for sharing your studying
If I ever dropped $200 for one of these baskets...I'd hate myself for weeks. Great review however.
it depends on your passion
☕☕☕
Love Is Important
Indeed my friend.
Shoot. I’m in the wrong place. I’m not deep down the rabbit hole or your mom. Where do I belong?
$200? Anybody paying that much for a basket has more money than sense. There is a lot of BS when it comes to coffee and this is right up there.
I could think "ok another product that may someone will find interesting and some other indifferent, just like leveling tools that i sincerely think that are useless
BUT when you charge 200 for a basket that it's not guaranteed that you will have better cup, and the most expensive after that costs 4 time less(VST), irritates me to have a flame comment about this product
I think there is no need to talk more
Yeah it’s definitely hard to guarantee something will make anything “better” and I think they dodge that by not going that route in their marketing. But it’s a hard sell.
I feel like some of these expensive baskets are a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.
Why does these baskets can’t produce a sweet cup in your opinion?
I want to post something rude so I can make an Instagram story cameo but can’t think of anything.
Haha I knew this day would come.
It seems to me they are flawed from the get go, water runs through them far too quickly. Im not convinced, seems like a scam.
Coffee gear is becoming more unreasonable for its price.
Thats alot of money but it might be worth it
👍
So, basically these are not worth it and marketed with MLM schemes.
it works if you have the passion.
I have 3 wafo baskets 🫣
diminishing returns...
I’d say in my case that’s true. In others, maybe not. Taste is objective and so is value.
@@Sprometheus fair enough!
Wafo coincidentally rhymes with awful!
I have a son?! :o
And he's bald?
No man... The reason I clicked on this video is that I think I've watched every single video on youtube that might be just slightly relevant to me. This is what's left now. I have no idea what a wafo is and I have a feeling that I'll never even see one in my life.
20 sec ago!!
Notification squad assemble!
I use Decent baskets.
Hi son
$200 for a friggin basket??? There is one word that can describe this: scam.
You made the same mistake as Karl Marx. Additional labor doesn't add value unless it produces a better product. The fact that these are machined doesn't make a bit of difference unless it results in a better cup of coffee. About the price, it's just a matter of how much $200 is to you. For me, it's a couple of weeks of "mad money", for a friend of mine it's what he makes in 6 minutes at his work. The product isn't aimed at poors like me, but that's fine, lots of people with lots of money like to spend it on toys.
Normcore has a knock off of the Waco Workflow and it has mixed reviews, people are stating that the holes get clogged with grounds and that they are hard to clean. At least for the Normcore’s $35 they include filter papers as well as a puck screen.
@mama sprometheus: great intro by your son
Summing up. These "super baskets" are a novel way to separate people from their money. Other than the normal OEM double basket, my Gaggia Classic produces outstanding espresso shots using a $7 Breville OEM, 58 mm double basket. Go figure.....