Fancy Espresso Baskets pt 1: Some Truth
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- Опубликовано: 11 янв 2023
- Today, we evaluate portafilter baskets and group shower screens from VST, IMS, E&B Lab, some stock ones that Profitec supplies free, and a cheap generic brand. Will we notice a real difference? I'm literally going to put them under the microscope. I want to know if we're getting the high quality we're paying for. And there's only one way to find out...
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Хобби
Looking for Part Two? Here you go: ruclips.net/video/fDNJ0kli-BA/видео.html
I'd already been planning a video on these super expensive baskets just released, but you inspired me to pick up a microscope for in depth analysis on tooling. Cheers!
You mean the Wafo and WW Unibasket? Excellent. Be sure to order the Patrick Bateman signature editions, lol. I'll predict that there might be some small measurable difference in EY, etc, but no noticeable difference in flavor / enjoyment :) And further that minor changes in other variables like grit size or water temp can totally upstage their "advantages". I look forward to your video :)
@@wiredgourmet I'm sure you're not wrong! But yes- I went ahead and picked them up. Hopefully I don't follow up the video by inviting women over to listen to music as I deconstruct said music lyric by lyric...
Would love to see the Weber unifilter thrown in there too! It’s quite expensive but then when you consider it includes the basket and the porta in one it might be pretty interesting!
I’m subscribed to lots of espresso related RUclips channels but this one is by far my favourite! ❤
The thing about VST that makes them special is that every single basket will behave almost identically. This matters little in a home environment, but in a commercial one where you've got multiple group heads, you can be sure that the dial-in for one group is going to be more or less the same for the others. Prior to VST, precision baskets weren't a thing, too.
Also - shower screens, I use an IMS competition on my Silvia Pro. The stock one uses the same two-piece mesh-and-plate design as the usual E61 screens and it's a pain to clean. The IMS one is much easier.
I would have thought the Wafo (multiple options) and Weber Workshop Unibasket might have been included as they are the latest and greatest filter baskets.
Maybe I should have, but... Wafo: $200 baskets. WW: over $350 for a PF. They strike me as blingy, over-engineered status objects with imaginary benefits, like superior "extraction geometry" and "thermal stability." They remind me of Monster Cables. I just don't feel comfortable dealing with that kind of thing :)
Uni basket from Weber is $170
@@wiredgourmet preliminary non validated findings indicate that it could have a benefit in commercial settings by bumping extraction such that amount of coffee used can be reduced while maintaining the same amount of extracted solubles in the drink.
That being said, for the home user, it seems like a similar effect can be gained by using a standard straight walled basket and a cut-to-size paper filter in the bottom.
@@wiredgourmet Wafo are designed for commercial environments primarily. As you know with traditional filter baskets, including VST, IMS etc, bowing of the bottom occurs, and the holes don’t go right to the edge, and some baskets have angled or rounded sides. These can contribute to channeling or uneven extraction. The Wafo and Weber baskets address this as best possible. The extraction as a result is more even. There are a good number of these baskets out in the wild with some good results coming out of these baskets so far from people using Decent espresso machines. Of course there is probably better bang for the buck with VST, IMS etc. but if you want the ultimate extraction and can afford then these high end precision baskets would be worth it.
@@wiredgourmetI believe socraticcoffee already did some measurments in the WAFO vs VST and proved to produce higher TDS / EY while reaching the bev. mass goal significantly faster.
The informational value you provide with your videos is tremendous! Thanks for putting so much effort in your videos and research and sharing your results in an compact entertaining way!!
RUclips recommendations have been on a roll!
We all needed that video! Thanks a lot!
I do like my new E&B Labs 22 g basket, but it has been a challenge to “Dial in” with it. Had to go down from 15 to 12 on my little Baratza grinder. Still working with it, but these baskets make a big difference, obviously. I’m a beginner with espresso; throwing lots of variables at it all at once (Only had my Gaggia Classic Evo for 3 weeks LOL!) Thanks for all the info!
Thank you for your insight, the scientific approach is nice to see and revealing
Excellent video, superbly done
Thank you!
The Project Farm of the coffee channels.
I can hardly wait for the next video! 😉👍
IMS user here as well and they do deliver. Very informative and realistic approach indeed.
Such a nice video!
Having just ordered an E61 maintenance kit for my 10 yr old Expobar Brewtus, I hope when it arrives its included new shower screen is “decent”. Looking for new baskets, I shall turn my attention to the Profitec ones. I am so close to pulling the trigger on a Eureka Mignon Oro but your teaser about the forthcoming Libra has me waiting. Hmmm? And Happy New Year.
love your oh my god intro, amazing
I’m new to your Chanel but you have me for life in anticipation of your “Monthly Barista Cos Play Death Match” video update.
Welcome to the community. Actually, pt 2 has been up for a while now.
As i saw this video on my recommendation list, as i was clicking i was already ready to comment about the wafo baskets, but i was not the first one 🤣
Just wanted to add a couple of notes:
both vst and ims make baskets for not just themselves but also for other manufacturers ( you can tell from the tool marks)
vst make baskets for both decent and pullman (and profitec it seems),
EDIT: tool marks are just related to the process and it seems that just other manufacturers have caught up VST's precision so pullman is definately not related to vst (dunno about decent).
Ims also makes baskets for lelit for their machines too.
The reason why vst is so expensive is due to the measuring to make sure every last hole is a perfect as can be. I'm anal about coffee but I can safely say that you don't need a basket that well made, just go for a basket that hasn't had every hole measured but is still make by vst (like pullman).
what I find interesting is that when knocking out a competition basket you will see a large dark ring of under extracted coffee due to the holes being so far away from the edge (I don't recommend them personally).
Before I get comments on people saying that a spent puck gives you no info and a ring means nothing, somebody made a blog post about them painstakingly taking the spent grounds from a puck and putting them in a small immersion brew and then seeing the extraction of the tiny brew. It was found that the dark circle around the edge was under extracted coffee (to few people's surprise). please do not put that process to waste.
You can eliminate the dark circle by selling your kidney and getting yourself a basket that has holes going all the way to the edge or instead using a paper filter at the bottom of a basket at the sacrifice of your workflow.
One last note, taperd baskets have no effect on this the only ring you get is on the flat surface where the holes are. So if you find that standard straight-wall baskets are giving you a little too bold of a flavour for your liking I would definitely recommend experimenting with them.
I think the goal of maximal extraction of all the puck for home espresso is not one of the most important parameters. Maybe for a cafe, I dunno. Using a filter paper reduces the pressure differential at the basket, which increases the pressure gradient through the puck. This considerably effects flow rate, all other things being equal.
Not really, you should alway strive for the highest, even extraction. These will be considerably easier to dial in, as well as getting more coffee out of your... coffee.
I imagine in a few years most specialty coffee shops will be using baskets like the Weber unifilter basket or the wafao basket because of their higher extractions. Just like why you will never see a specialty shop using a 'stamped' poorly made basket.
@@NickMayers-rj9zn Yes, as I said, I can see specialty coffee shops going for this. At home, if you are not precisely pre-infusing (as most machines do not for a couple of reasons), that will affect the extraction way more than a bit of coffee around the bottom edges not being extracted as much. This strikes me as being in the same category as worrying about precisely weighing the coffee dose to the bean.
Actually many machines do have some sort of preinfusion (there are very few that don't, the reason why you may not hear it much is because many distributers like to say the feature is only on their high-end machines *whole latte love* *cough* *cough* .
One thing also to mention is there is only two ways to get rid of "the ring of death".
1. Go full turbo shot (my faves for my fruity coffees)
2. Use a paper filter on the bottom of your basket.
3. Have holes that go all the way to the edge of the basket (not recommended for home enthusiasts cause of the expense)
As you can see, preinfusion has nothing to do with it, not to say that it isn't usefull, just that this is a problem it doesn't solve.
@@NickMayers-rj9zn The very reliable way to nearly eliminate what you call "The ring of death" (hyperbole IMHO) is to do a low pressure pre-infusion at 2-3 bar until coffee is coming out of all of the bottomless portafilter, which will be when about .2+gm of coffee have dripped down. You cannot achieve this consistently and easily with a timed pre-infusion or a fixed amount of water, because it depends upon the dose you are using, slight differences in grind setting, puck preparation, and coffee CO2 production. Most machines have a clunky way to do one or the other of the ways that do not work well for nearly full puck extraction. There is one in kickstarter right now that does what I describe that works. Anyways, all this is nitpicking for home use. Personally I do not like paper on the bottom of the basket because the paper imparts a flavor to the coffee and means the extraction at the bottom of the basket is at very low pressure. If you cannot taste the paper, I suspect there are many other details you cannot taste, but hey, if you like it that way, fine by me.
God you just saved me from spending 70$ Canadian for the vst! I'm going with ims. Thank you
Loved the video and your channel in general, it's cool to see the machining up close and you always bring some healthy skepticism to all the expensive toys in this hobby! Great to know that the machining quality of some more affordable baskets is rivaling that of the more expensive ones! I had heard similar things even about some of the standard breville baskets (which are like $8 compared to $38!). I did want to comment though, machining is only part of what VST is saying they offer in a precision basket. VST is claiming that their machining is more consistent yes with their analysis printout, but many it seems are also drawn to their baskets as their walls are a little straighter especially for the ridge-less variety (in theory improving more even extraction compared to more tapered walled baskets that take a wider top coffee bed and restrict flow to a more tapered bottom hole surface). Additionally, they modify the overall hole surface area based on the reported recommended dose (i.e. 18g vs 20g), providing more surface area (and in theory faster flow/less resistance intrinsic to the basket) for the higher dose baskets. This in theory then (with less resistance from the holes in the basket) lets you grind finer compared to if the hole surface area was the same for all of their baskets and the only thing they changed was their overall depth. Hoffman did a side by side demonstration of why he likes VST in the following link ruclips.net/video/3oFV88PzEFE/видео.html . Now, full disclosure, whether or not this is something the average home enthusiast would notice, or may be pseudoscience to justify double or triple the price in baskets is a fair criticism! By no means have I personally done enough experimentation/analysis to confirm these claims. But I did at least want to comment that is part of what they are claiming they offer, and why they charge a premium for it. But sounds like you might discuss that in a later video in the series, so I'll stay tuned and interested to hear your thoughts!
I do think (and say) that VST makes quality baskets. But I found that the IMS ridgeless ones were just as straight and precisely made for 1/2 the price, and they also give consideration to hole surface area in terms of overall size (see their catalog). And VST makes baskets for other outfits at 1/3 the price. I could not see any difference, even under the microscope between VST-Profitec and VST-VST. So it seems we're paying 3x merely for branding. That's my chief criticism. (BTW, Mr. Hoffmann is a VST reseller: shop.squaremilecoffee.com/products/ridgeless-vst-basket -- not that I have any reason to believe it might influence his reviews.)
And is the ability to grind finer or extract more a universal good? My palate says, sometimes yes, sometimes emphatically NO.
We started bringing in the new production ItalFiltri baskets from DVG 15 years ago (we sold thousands of them) and posted them with macro photos of the finish and holes about 9 months before VST introduced theirs. Except for the paper insert and barcode, they were identical. The patent was in the certification method, not the production. The machines to manufacture baskets are expensive and only a few are in use, companies pay for production of different dies but the manufacturing is identical.
Funny you should post this today. I've got photographic evidence supporting what you say, and have been working on a short video essentially confirming your point here. Should be up in a couple of days, so keep in touch. I think you'll find it amusing.
Thank you for this. As an as an addendum, can you also photograph the holes in the basket from the Cafelat Robot?
Certainly want to understand volume dosing. Especially with a level tamper (since I can’t seem to manage level tamping with a regular tamper) I always worry if I am not tamping enough
Have you ever heard of the Reneka Micro Sieve baskets? They are a 2 piece basket which makes them different from the usual machined baskets.
can you do a video on mokka pot crema valves I've always wondered how those are in comparison to actual crema
very informative video , thanks. I was eager to buy VST before this video , not anymore :)
I'm going to check second and third videos :)
Call me crazy, but those VST holes looked MUCH better than the others. I will agree that the surface area looked identical, but the holes are what matters, no? I've spent $4,000+ dollars on my machine and grinder, I am not going to hesitate to spend $35 versus $10 on a basket. Thanks for a great video, even if I disagree on the recommended basket purchase. I've used the same stock shower screen for years. Time to upgrade that part as well with your information. Thanks!
They look the almost exactly the same as the Profitec ones
Shocking wrt VST. I imagine Cafelat is the same manufacturer as Prof.? Great vid
What is a shower screen? Where does it go on my Delonghi 3420? Newbie?
My CMA flimsy rattling shower screens are here in my kichen a bigger issue, but yes, ims have been nice baskets.
I would have liked to seen the bottom of the baskets under the microscope too :)
SCIENCE!
No mention of the uni filter?
i find that the basket sent with my profitec400 produces a better taste over my IMS basket
I am SOOOO thankful you made this vid. I have a couple of questions I hope you could answer. How sure are you about the Profitec being an unbranded VST?
What is the size comparison of the Profitec that you say was nearly identical to the VST? Is it comparible to an 18 gr VST basket or something larger/smaller? The reason I ask is i was about to pull the trigger on an 18 gr VST, but would gladly save $20!
Second, I think one thing people who dose via weight get out of the VST are different sizes. If dosing at 14 gr, there's a basket for you. Want to do 22 gr, they've got you. The Profitec seems to be a one-size fits most. Is that a plus or a minus in your opinion?
Thanks again, happy to have found you and sub to your amazing content!
Not identical. I have a profitec basket obtained last year and 20g ridged vst. The profitec basket is 1.5mm taller, so I would say it is a 21g basket. It is also 10% lighter, so the material might be thinner. It also has 12 less holes (but otherwise same pattern and placement) and the ridge looks a little narrower and deeper compared to the vst.
I would think only a competition filter that brings water to the coffee would matter.
I was looking for this video this morning…. Any plans to throw in a Wafo or unibasket at any point?
See my reply to Luka :)
I did a macro photo comparison of the stock Breville Dual Boiler basket and the VST 18g when I got my machine in 2021. And hole-spacing and quality was similar, however, the VST had 727 holes, which is 42 holes more(~6% more hole area) than the BDB stock basket, spaced around around the perimeter. So id did have better coverage over the full bottom area than the stock basket.
Now if that matters or not, YMMV, but it should get a bit better edge extraction having more area for the water to flow through. But you can probably use bottom papers in a stock basket just as well.
Wat there was NO followup! Did they pay to keep you silenced or are you waiting for sponsorship.
Coating on ims baskets don’t last that long unfortunately 4:50
How long did yours last? Mine are holding up after almost a year with 1 shot a day.
@@RayShan wow 😮 mine gone within may be 4 months!
what a joke VST is pulling. How disappointing. thank goodness i never bought one.
I almost ready the title as "Social Baskets" instead of "Special Baskets". Some things are definitely a social vapourware.