How Many Civilians Have Died in Gaza? Urban War Expert | Making Sense
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- Опубликовано: 30 сен 2024
- An excerpt from episode #366 of the Making Sense podcast.
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Sam has always supported Israel and America’s wars, that’s his track record
You are simply applying different standards to different conflicts/events. We receive estimates on death tolls from most conflicts, and generally we believe these numbers. But the minute it's casualties in Gaza, the response is 'We don't know, and can't possibly know.' - How about we find out then? It can't be zero. Look at the damage that's been done; it's fucking catastrophic. This seems like an argument coming from a place of intellectual dishonesty. I also reject that the total death toll doesn't have any meaningful breakdown of who died. They're estimating 15,000 women and children have died. That's their number, and if you're unwilling to believe this number, then why aren't you as interested to find the truth? Shouldn't that matter?
The current Ukraine war *estimates* 500 or so children have died. We believe this number to be accurate, or as accurate as possible. We have an estimate of the number of deaths from October 7: around 1200. So you're immediately willing to accept these numbers, but absolutely unwilling to believe the numbers from Gaza, even though in *every* scenario, the reported death toll is something that creates a positive incentive for the ones under attack. Hamas is not unique in this way. If we want to sympathise with someone's cause, the death toll numbers will literally always do this. Every single nation has the same incentive to present these numbers.
À 17 years old with an AK is not a child.
@@synewparadigm why not? Is that a new legal definition put out by AIPAC or something?
Sam is a mouthpiece for warmongers and always has been. This is his job, to manufacture consent for garbage policies
@@synewparadigm even if I grant you that, that would be a small % of the total number of *innocent* children killed by the IDF, so this doesn't make a difference to the statement I made.
So let's trust Hamas who are known liars.
UN Halves Its Estimate of Women and Children Killed in Gaza
The UN cut in half its estimates of the number of women and children killed in Gaza. The estimates were based on Hamas numbers and are a reminder that all fatality estimates coming from that source are unreliable. [Council on Foreign Relations]
Gaza-based journalist Jehad Saftawi said that the *Hamas terrorist organization indeed uses civilians as human shields in the war against Israel.*
"Hamas terrorists used my family and hundreds of our neighbors as human shields. Hamas continues to hold the people of Gaza captive," Saftawi posted on X. "There should be no reconstruction of my family's home while a stockpile of weapons lies underneath.
Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar admitted the group “decided to turn that which is most dear to us - the bodies of our women and children - into a dam blocking the collapse in Arab reality.”
After acknowledging Hamas builds tunnels to protect fighters but not civilians, Abu Marzouk ventured that it is the job of the United Nations, not Hamas, to protect civilians.
I tried to share this clip on a BBC RUclips video about the war in Gaza, and it was instantly taken down. I tried to leave a comment referencing this clip and it was also instantly deleted.
Hmmm.. thats interesting.. as i was listening to this, i was amazed i hadn't actually questioned these statistics, and subsequently thought id test the water to see if it gets thru via facebook.. if, as suggested that the figures are nowhere near what we're being told, then this changes a lot.. one gets the feeling that many "left" organisations could well be censoring, as you've experienced..
The death toll videos are being shadow banned
RUclips comment deletion especially on news channels is very aggressive.
Freedom of speech 😂
And to highlight this.. i cant see my reply to you.. is it possible its already already been deleted..? And if so, what the fuck is going on??
In WWII about 350,000 to 500,000 civilians died from Allied bombing; no one knows exactly and we will never know. This was NO genocide, because it was never the plan of the Allies to wipe out all German population. I can't uderstand with all the examples you give here that people are shouting 'genozide' in the Gaza war. As a German non Jew I stand with Israel.
It's because Gaza has become the new trendy thing to support. It's easy to shout "genocide" and become one of the cool kids. Most people who take 5 minutes to look up this topic know calling it a genocide is ridiculous especially when far worse conflicts with more civilian death happened very close and another right now being Syria and Ukraine.
The allied bombings in WW2 were no doubt a war crime. However war crime was not defined in international law until after WW2.
@@ghostf6321 it’s a little more complex than “the trendy thing to support”.
So, first, the reason why the protesters are calling it genocide is because of South Africa’s ICJ report (I believe Amnesty international also calls it a genocide and many more organizations). The protesters don’t call it genocide for fun (I doubt any sane person would), there’s a bunch of evidence supporting this conclusion.
And that other genocides killed more or less people doesn’t matter definitionally.
I can't understand why you don't understand this is a genocide or at the very least resembles one. Gaza is a small territory and has been cut off from the world by the Israelis for years. There is no port or airport as Israel destroyed them and will not allow new ones to be built. Israel controls all the land crossings as well. In the current military campaign since October 7th the already poor Gaza has suffered the loss of about 70% of the residences, almost 100% of the schools, almost 100% of the hospitals, and almost all other regular services have been destroyed. 25000 to 35000 people have been and many more grievously injured out of a population of about 2 million over 6 months. At least a third of these numbers are children. Journalists, aid workers, and hostages are also being killed in the bombing. Israeli officials keep telling civilians to move to "safe" zones then bomb them as they move and bomb them in the "safe" zone. They are now mostly gathered in Rafah with nowhere else to go, being attacked daily and starved to death with little shelter or services of any kind. The IDF says it will soon invade Rafah. Israeli cabinet ministers regularly say things like let's turn Gaza into a parking lot. Even if you don't agree with the definition of genocide I think it should be clear there are reasons to call it that.
@@ghostf6321By your logic I guess you think if your name's not Adolf then any killing of a targeted population doesn't even count.
Shame on you
Let's be honest here. Sam has a long history of hostility towards Islam and Muslims. He's struggled to conceal his bias and has revealed his true colors as a proponent of Jewish supremacy in the past few months. Speaking only to those who share his views hardly lends him credibility. He consistently downplays the grave suffering of innocent civilians in Gaza, a population that has restricted access to basic necessities like food, water, electricity, and medical supplies. Over 45,000 bombs dropped within the first 100 days. Gaza is only 25 miles. How many more children will perish? How many remain trapped under rubble, unaccounted for? These conversations often veer away from the central issue: genocide. Don't be deceived. Such discussions by supposed intellectuals are self-serving and aimed at manipulating opinions. Their biggest challenge is the IDF's real-time dissemination of hundreds of videos, exposing the true extent of their crimes.
Sadly, he's been doing this for some time now. Since Covid, he's rarely put himself in a position to *truly* defend his position, and honestly, whenever he is put in that position lately, he doesn't look good.
"Jewish supremacy" LOL. Who elected a government that call for the extramination of jews?
One question Sam NEVER asks about Muh TikTok zombies is...what exactly are they seeing that is sooo convincing, if not the truth? It's not all Iranian disinfo or whatever Z!onists want to believe.
Also, why was there ZERO discussion of regulating say, Meta? oh right, because they already do the bidding of the war criminals in DC
Absolutely!
He doesn't have "hostility towards Islam and Muslims" . He is just stating facts.
How do you tell if a soldier or a civilian is dead when no one wears a uniform
You can't. Plus, after 18 years the Gazan's are complicit in helping Hamas. Gazan's = Hamas.
@@rsr789I'm so happy to see other people using the gazan label for residents of Gaza to distinguish them from the 2 million Palestinians living peacefully in israel.
@@macmcleod1188 Folks living in Israel are usually called Israelis. But you keep calling them Palestinians for no real reason, okay?
@@marijuasher incorrect. The full correct reference by the IMEU is "Palestinian Citizens of Israel". There are 1.9 million of them.
See, "Fact Sheet: Palestinian Citizens of Israel"
Your statement is trying to erase them and make them invisible.
@@marijuasher the fact is the half of these people living in Gaza are víolent and celëbrate crimes against hûmanity.
Well, let’s see: when a missile felt Down in a Gazza hospital the hamas announced 500 death people. oo!! The next day, when discovering it was a Hamas missile, 300 resuscitated and only 200 were killed.
Photos were released of that hospital. The hospital wasn't even hit, it was the parking lot with a few cars or so able to fit in it... which leads me to think, unless they were having a crowded protest in there, only maybe 50 could have died in the parking lot directly, maybe 10 or so in the surrounding streets, worse 20, and maybe another 30 if there was a lot of crowding next to the windows by the parking lot. I have no reason to trust any of their numbers. Best to wait til ISRAEL counts them so I can hear the other side.
And based on the fact that cars only 15 ft away from the crater still had their windows and the trees 20 ft away from the crater still have their leaves, I think actual losses were under 30.
And we were also faced with the claim that they had removed all evidence of human loss of life in the dark in 3 hours before the sun rose.
And the total count was never corrected.
As a Jewish person, the best thing I've ever done to honor my people is fully reject the toxic, violent, propagandist, settler colonial mythology of the state of "Israel" - an abusive, ethnonationalist Zionist project.
You cannot imagine the fury of young Jews who are realizing or have realized, en masse, that our elders and communities hid Palestine from us. They obfuscated the blood-price of our faith fantasy. They painted fetishistic superiority as righteousnes. They re-named cities and told us to look left while they brutalized Palestine on the right.
I'm not sure how we forgive them.
Disgusting content trying to defend an apartheid state.
Almost all human rights organization have declared Israel to be an aparteid state. The ICC has put an arrest warrant out on Netanyahu for war crimes...
But in Sam's mind this is all acceptable because Islam is a morally reprehensible religion? What a sick joke.
History will invalidate this man's political opinions, and I don't think Sam's ego would ever allow him to admit he was off the mark so damn much.
Sam Harris, as an intellectual, needs to be more of value rationality, not instrumental rationality.
he's instrumental to the Occupation at least
The UN just quietly halved the estimates of women and children out of the total casaulty number.
No they didn't, they just disaggregated those who are confirmed dead with those who are missing (presumably under the rubble), and therefore probably dead.
This is false. The total numbers of death are the same. What has changed is the confirmed names and details of those killed accounting for 24,000
Oh really? did they?
@Humanaut. No they didn't, the just decided to disaggregate between those confirmed killed and those missing, most likely under the rubble
Yes lol they did@Humanaut.
I have no idea who this Sam is. You have become truly lost.
Sam’s making no sense podcast
Bye.
Define 'civilian' in a conflict where one side doesn't wear a uniform unless it's convenient, where there is no defined line between the Gaza 'government,' the terrorists, the United Nations, the general population, the local media or the local medical staff, where a large part of the population is actively involved in aiding the combatants, etc, etc.
So it was in Warsaw Getto during the WWII. If you fight guerillas you can't expect them to label according to your standards.
Children...is that a good enough definition?
Another one sided expert. Sam, for once get someone else to articulate the other side of the argument.your total anti Islam attitude is clouding your judgment.
What argument?
@@avishevin1976 millions under occupation
@@bikerd12
Harris didn’t make that argument.
He is guilty of the sin which he accuses everyone else of. Confirmation bias
I have to say Sam, there's a bias in your commentary, do two wrongs make a right?
You are right if that is indeed his position, but how exactly does he argue that two wrongs make a right? His lesser-evil approach to consequentionalism is not the same thing as arguing that two wrongs make a right.
@lm58142 from what moral objectivity is retaliation killing nearly 40,000 citizens the lesser evil? Hamas is inherently evil, oppressing their own citizens, but isreal isn't freeing the Palestinians, its systematically killing and starving civilians. I'll stick to my statement, two wrongs do not make a right
Sam come on. Nobody thinks the ratio of combatants to non combatants killed is 1:1. And no we don’t know how many have been killed. That’s because there are thousands of men, women and children buried under rubble who are totally unaccounted for. You are completely detached from reality if you think you can morally continue to defend Israel’s disregard for human life. Instead of speaking to guest after guest who agree with you, why not bring on some serious guests who hold the opposite view? This isn’t an issue around vaccine deniers or election conspiracy. You should have nothing to fear from debating this issue rather than being Israel’s mouthpiece.
Ok, ratio of combatants to non combatants in 1:2 , war is still justified and Israel has moral right to clear Gaza of Hamas. What is the opposite view?
You just heard something you didn’t want to hear. Talk about a bias, did you not listen to the video? All the opposing side has is talking heads that aren’t actually experts in anything. I think the last one I saw was a Palestinian comedian lmao claiming genocide was being committed. It’s a joke.
"The expert doesn't agree with me. Find another expert"...
Funny enough, we were right about covid, vaccines and dodgy elections too.
@@Mac-ku3xuHow exactly?
You cant reason with some people,they are still calling this a genocide which is ludicrous.Even with Hamas numbers 35 thousand is nothing compared to the total population after months of war.Again its a WAR,just because the originall aggressor is vastly inferior doesnt mean much.Maybe just maybe you shoudnt kick the hornets nest if you have no chance.
You wouldn't say this if your loved ones were in Gaza.
Learn your history about how Gaza has been oppressed.
@@Richard-d1y Fail to see how that changes anything about what genocide means, and my family survived the actual nazis.And no I aint a Jew.People in general and obviously you too have no clue how war works.Here is an example, the allies in WW2 dropped the equivelant of 20 Hiroshimas on Germany every month just with their conventional bombing.Kids died, a lot of em.And that is still NOT a genocide.
@@FutureDeadGuy007 So?Your comment is iirelevant to what a genocide means.And I know more history than you,.I have 12 books on Gaza, and 5 Palestinian friends.I know their plight,so go try to impress someone like that girl.A massacre is a massacre, a war crime is a war crime and a genocide is something very diffrent.
@@Richard-d1y 99% who post here would have left Gaza years ago. The place is a lost cause. A poll conducted a few months ago said that 75% of Palestinians in Gaza agreed with what Hamas did on October 7th
Not enough to warrant empathy from Sam Harris.
Brutal and succinct.
Sam doesn't view Muslims, especially Palestinians, as human, so that's hardly surprising
@@Giantcrabz it's quite disappointing. I was a big fan of his.
@mustafabarzanji9280 me too. I still appreciate what I learned about mindfulness from him. He got famous from arguing about religion so I think he's just become blinded by basic human nature. I'm atheist but his obsession with religion instead of looking at economic and political factors is underwhelming. and
Really, you are debating whether its actually the number claimed by Hamas? 200,000 homes have been destroyed. Was there no one in those homes when they were bombed? Were they on holiday in the South of France?
IDF always drop flyers over the area and send txt msgs to let population evacuate long before bombing. Msm don't tell you stuff like that
Quite a lot of brain power focusing on correct numbers instead of what the exact numbers represent at this point and, btw, what is important about knowing correct number of human deaths. It reminds me of the 1970s joke about identifying "testosterone poisoning." A definition was if a heterosexual couple are watching a sunset and the man times it, he's got testosterone poisoning.
It would be nice to hear from someone who is not brought on to justify Israel's assault on Gaza in one way or another. Sam has had a parade of Israel apologists on since 10/7 and not a single contrary voice. This is not the ratio of perspectives that one cultivates when one is trying in good faith to understand an incredibly complex event.
Well said. It seems pretty simple to me. Bring on both sides. It's astonishing that Piers Morgan does a better job at showing perspectives from both sides than Sam Harris.
There are enough people screaming “genocide” for there to be another perspective to listen to
He had Rory Stewart on twice (4th Feb 2024, 28th Feb 2024) who is a contrary voice on these issues. He also bought an urban warfare expert on to try and understand whether the IDF could have invaded in a different way to reduce civilian deaths, but the answer to that questions seems pro israel because it aligns with what they did, and you say that it's just a justitication and that he his wrong. maybe he's right and there was no better way to get rid of hamas? I'd be interested in hearing peoples thoughts after listening to the whole podcast and not just this clip
@@elliott9628That depends on the very particular premise, that this kind of ground invasion actually incapacitates Hamas and for that matter reduces the risk to Israel and makes the region more peaceful long-term overall. Frankly, viewing the animosity Israel provoked with it's approach, I'm not sure whether that is the case.
@@gordonbgraham Two things: first, we aren't talking about the ratio of perspectives in society broadly speaking. We are talking about the ratio of perspectives on Sam's podcast. My claim was limited to the latter. Second, per society broadly speaking, it is an open question which side has more exposure. The pro-Israel side has mobilized all the resources of the US government and taxpayer money to establish McCarthy-esque performative hearings designed to publicly vilify and silence criticism of Israel at the highest levels of civil society (i.e., university presidents). The pro-Palestinian side has mobilized...scattered groups of teenagers on US campuses.
The most useless snippet
It's colonial propaganda
If you got nothing out of this snippet, you're the useless one. Use your brain.
Yes Israel is very unique. They own United States, very unique in our history. They are the only country with an apartheid regime backed by the most powerful military in the world, and are able to kill Palestinians with no one able to put them at check, another very unique aspect. If our questioning how many civilians have they killed is unique, perhaps that is because that is the best attempt people with conscience can make to hold Israel somewhat accountable. At yet, they still don’t abide. Indeed they claim even that questioning is also antisemitic.
it's not nearly as unprecedented as these two sweating war crime apologists claim either. The French war in Algeria was absolutely brutal
Calling it apartheid won't make it true. But why not throw around words that people are eager to hear - it's as easy as throwing around civilian death tolls !!! What would be a good number for your agenda ? Just give it and people will eat it up.
@@Giantcrabz brutal, yes, unique, no. Israel, both brutal and unique.
If you feel the need to put out content to disect the amount of innocent people killed in order to justify that amount you are on the side of the bad guys.
i think sam is on the wrong side,it happens. i hope you see the error sooner than later
If you think he has ever changed his mind on anything, you haven't been paying attention.
No chance. 100% on the right side of this. Hamas is disgusting. Beyond the pale.
i think you are on the wrong side. siding with an islamists. how about that?
@@charliewalker9443Hamas is disgusting and IDF is the flag bearer of morality
6 millijon died at least
Numbers. War is tragedy reduced to numbers, and using those numbers to inflict more tragedies.
Always has been, every single time. Numbers are just one part of the propaganda that quickly takes over in every single war, and especially Hamas are very much fighting a propaganda war. Militarily they don't have a leg to stand on. So yeah, there's a reason for the old saying: "In war, truth is the first casualty".
It's about Hamas propaganda. According to Hamas no soldiers have been killed. Hamas have used propaganda for 17 years .
Some samples of LAST 20 years:
Nigeria Boko Haram 350,000 dead
Sudan JEM/Darfur 300,000 dead
Yemen Houthis 233,000 dead
Pakistan vs Islamists 50,000 dead
Syria 500,000 dead
South Sudan 400,000 dead
Ethiopia and Eritrea vs Tigray 600,000 dead
No protests for all these dead.
So if it's war than oct.7 was a war attack? How many Israelis civilians were military. How many bombings did Israel do before Oct.7? That's relevant data. There is alot of speculation and undefined data. We would have to agree on definitions as well. That's the problems we get when we act like we know it all by arbitrarily quantifying anything we want to make our point... Therein lies the problems stemming from our "armchair" intellectuals. Smart with unclear directions. Mostly collective narcissism to whomever vs. of "us" they be with. Show me a consistent and coherent structure , not just pixelated dots and lines of data and info. Knowledge and wisdom this conversation lacks... Period.
Approx. 1000 were civilians. 600 in their homes, not surrounded by soldiers using them as human shields, but just in their home. They were tortured, burnt and raped, in their homes. In their sleepwear. 400 more innocents were at the Nova festival, celebrating PEACE. They were slaughtered indiscriminately. They tried to hide in bathroom stalls. There are videos from Hamas terrorists by their own body cameras shooting at the stalls.
Another 250 are innocent civilians including elderly, underage teens and CHILDREN AND BABIES who have been kidnapped by this satannical organization.
Are these statistics good enough for you? If unarmed Israeli civilians haven't risked their lives to save as many as they could, if armed forces fighting few against many for hours until the help came haven't stood their ground against all odds (many have fallen while saving countless lives) the numbers of innocents would be WAY higher. Would it satisfy the pro-hamasians? If the body count on Israel's innocents was higher for "proportion"?
Stop this madness. Stand with Israel against radical islam terrorism. For the people of Gaza as well as for Israel.
October 7th was an act of war which started the current conflict.
I would say the specific actions which are crimes against humanity that they committed but the post would be removed.
The least of their crimes were intentionally violating women to "dirty" them while recording.
In fact at 1 us university, the protest was shut down by showing their videos 24 hours a day opposite from the protest. After a few days, all the women left the protest.
God I love Sam's mediation app, but you'd think with all the talking he does about compassion and "headlessness" he wouldn't be so blind to his own ego and biases. Pretty lame.
It's weird even after Israel managed to rescue 4 hostages, Western media only focuses on the number of Palestinian civilians killed in the process. Like there exists this alternate reality where Israel can conduct effective military operations with no civilian casualties at all but instead chose not to. Especially given the nature of urban warfare against Hamas.
Would if it been nice if the hostages were held in a military base isolated from the rest of Gaza? Sure, but sadly these aren't the circumstances we're in right now.
Some samples of LAST 20 years:
Nigeria Boko Haram 350,000 dead
Sudan JEM/Darfur 300,000 dead
Yemen Houthis 233,000 dead
Pakistan vs Islamists 50,000 dead
Syria 500,000 dead
South Sudan 400,000 dead
Ethiopia and Eritrea vs Tigray 600,000 dead
No protests for all these dead.
Gaza is just an excuse, it is an organized and well played campaign.
Take a look at the decimation of structures, the piles of rubble. Look at the aerial shots of neighborhoods. Then tell yourself 2 million people lived there just 8 months ago. Finally use your common sense.
I'm Australian Aboriginal
This. The thing to consider in this, is that the level of physical destruction isn't something that can be resolved before famine kicks in. The casualties now are bad enough, but ask yourself what Gaza looks like one year from now. That death toll is going to be higher than it is now, but it will be blamed on poor governance, not on the fact that the IDF designed this scenario with its handling of this conflict.
Sam makes too much cash off his bs to stop smelling his own farts now
How about you use facts ? Like Israel announcing days if not weeks ahead where it's going to attack (which is just insanity for any military action), and the population being warned and given time (and even aid) in leaving the designated area ? I know it's against common sense because what army would act this way, but this is how Israel operates in Gaza. Structures are not just "bombed" out of nowhere and being decimated with civilians in there. Bottom line - being informed > "common sense"...
LIES!
So, the purpose of this clip is to... cast doubt on the assertion that too many civilians are being killed?
No...The purpose is to show us where the numbers are coming from, and to remind us that one can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs
@@NLF123 you seem smart
@@thespyofcharles Has that too become a crime nowadays?
It's meant to ask the question "how many civilians have died in Gaza?"
@@stevesteady603 And to then say, "Eh, who knows? No one can say! Why are people so interested in this anyway? No one ever cared about civilian deaths in any other war in all of history, after all!"
Too many .
Hamas is not exactly impartial in it's death estimates.
And Israel is?
@@ismashurmom1123in Israel you have checks and balances making them at least a bit more honest and accountable
@@ihx7😂
No one is in war
🍉🍉🍉🍉🍉🍉🍉🍉🍉🍉🍉🍉
Thank you for bring a more nuanced perspective to a horrific situation. There has been way too much oversimplification about a very complex situation. Those of us whom have spent the carers struggling with complexity appreciate how difficult it is to make any reasonable assessments with the limited unbiased information available.
Careers? :-)
@@Fomites it’s impossible to correct mistakes on RUclips once you have sent the comment
@@theinngu5560 The 3 vertical dots on the right side of the comment allow editing your own comments.
Some samples of LAST 20 years:
Nigeria Boko Haram 350,000 dead
Sudan JEM/Darfur 300,000 dead
Yemen Houthis 233,000 dead
Pakistan vs Islamists 50,000 dead
Syria 500,000 dead
South Sudan 400,000 dead
Ethiopia and Eritrea vs Tigray 600,000 dead
No protests for all these dead.
Gaza is just an excuse, these protests are organized and played in service of foreign interests and other agendas, part of a global campaign.
Lol if this was the Israeli Minister of Defense Harris is talking to I wouldn’t be surprised. Don’t pose as an “expert” if you’re emotionally invested.
The important thing to observe here is that Sam is not a stupid person, so he knows pretty well what the IDF is doing, but sells us propaganda like this anyways. All the truth will be out there even for the slightly apathetic and most smear merchants and bad-faith reporting will turn around and pretend they were on the right side of the issue all along. Remember this.
You’re gonna eat crow. When it’s all said and done and “the right side” becomes clear…remember this.
💯💯💯💯
As a liberal, I wish far more who also claim that political leaning would listen to this and see the truth.
We’re here, we’re just not loud and obnoxious like they are.
He just can't get an objective guest on this show. If Sam really cared about his loyal supporters he would do this. He often says that conversation is the only way to solve an issue.well, put that into practice, and get a voice that does not agree with your gaza view; then we might get woken up.
he isn't interested in that
With respect, he brought on an expert in the field with actual combat experience bolstering his bona fides. I think it is you that needs to listen, really listen, to what this expert is telling you.
For example, this clip illustrates both how horrific urban combat is (civilians are indeed dying) but also how uncertain it is (we simply have no clear idea about death tolls in an active urban war zone).
Moreover, Sam is trying to make the point that such information is a foundational aspect of the lawfare Hamas is waging against Israel. There is a reason the Gaza Ministry of Health is quick to report, and overinflate, civilian deaths. Decent human beings will naturally recoil in horror at the carnage.
The point being: an objective person would take the expert’s point here and conclude it is likely we are being subjected to propaganda which is unfalsifiable at this point.
@@TalisUmbras your doing exactly what this " expert " is doing , which is splitting hairs. We could discuss endlessly what numbers are correct or what bias certain groups have. These are essentially strawmen. The real problem is, can any fair-minded person, accept an ethno supremacy state, that is actively removing its indigenous occupants. This is undeniable. No other state is allowed to do this and it's only justification is from an archaic religous book. I remember Sam once said if you want to know what the jihadists want ,ask them. Well apparently 85% of israelis want gaza destruction and all new settlers want the expulsion of all non jews. The israelis are using the methods and rhetoric that forced them to leave europe in the two previous centuries.
The most cynical argument however is conflating jihadism with fightining ethnic cleansing; who are the real jihadists ?
@@parrmik No, we’re setting the conditions for a logical assessment of the conflict under the internationally recognized laws of war. That is, the set of rules governing state-level conflict as understood and agreed to by those states.
Indeed, that’s immediately where your position (Israel is an “ethno supremacy state” “removing its indigenous occupants”) immediately comes into tension with that of Sam’s guest (and my own). Without impugning the nature of the state of Israel, a fair minded observer could assess whether or not that state is abiding by the Law of International Armed Conflict (LOIAC) or not. A fair minded observer could also do so with respect to Hamas whether or not it viewed the government of Hamas as a terrorist organization.
I sincerely hope you will try to do so though your phrasing drips with assumptions and moral judgments that I believe is clouding your objectivity.
Insofar as you make the attempt, I hope you will take the guest’s point that Israel is being held to a standard that no state before it ever has been under LOIAC. Indeed, I would go a step further and say Israel is being held to a standard *inconsistent* with LOIAC primarily by international actors seeking to undermine the United States primarily and Israel as a tertiary concern. Call it the “human rights” takeover of LOIAC (two distinct branches of Public International Law) by human rights jurists. You can see this most clearly when discussing collateral damage under LOIAC and prohibitions on civilian/civilian object damage.
So you don't want an expert in urban warfare, teaches at West Point and has been on the ground in Gaza. You would rather have someone who has not been to Gaza or Israel and has bloviated since late October about how the people are starving and being targeted by Israel.
Those who start wars are NEVER the victim. The Arabs in Gaza have started this war.
Forget what you think is the exaggerated, what is the munber for you. How much civilian death is satisfactory for you to say that what is happening is a war crime?
Civilians die in every war. Every single one. If you're against all wars your position is respectable. If you aren't, you don't get to apply different criteria to this than to the other ones.
1 is enough. But the war crime is Hamas'. A double war crime in fact. They target civilians on Israel's side (and kidnap them, including babies) and hide behind their own civilians in their home and protected areas like hospitals, schools, kindergartens, mosques, UN structures, etc.
How many is too many?
74 per 1,000
69/420
To Sam there is no limit. He will bend over backwards to rationalize anything Israel does to those poor ppl. He works backwards from the idea that Israel is the pinnacle of morality, which is utterly laughable to anyone paying attention to info outside the mainstream propaganda.
Zb x Pn > Ft(kn x P)
One shouldn't answer questions with questions.
How many have been used to hide behind?
you sound like a religious person
Almost all where used by HAMAS to hide behind
everything is justified to you war criminals, as long as it's happening mostly to Muslims. Absolutely disgusting
Were the illegal military settlers and military personnel also “hiding behind” the innocent victims in October?
I think both sides lie.
That includes you, Sam.
The cameras (the most reliable witnesses) show nothing but ruins.
I'm no expert, but this looks a lot like saturation bombing to me. Sorta like we did to Germany and Japan at the end of WW2 (which Germany did to all of its victims at the start of the war, except for Paris, France.
I consider the body counts (on both sides) to be crude estimates at best. They could be wildly under stated as well as wildly over stated. Hamas could well be lying. But they have the best access to the truth. Israel can only guess.
I don't want to live in a Muslim majority country. However, Zionism is not that different to Islamism from a Palestinian perspective.
Are you serious? Zionism is the creation of a Jewish state, a democratic state. Islamism is a state run by Islamic FANATICS, not run as a democracy, and not interested in multiple points of view. From a Palestinian perspective, they are BRAINWASHED as a culture and as a people. Because any Palestinian Arab capable of independent thought and action would sign up for Israeli citizenship at the drop of a hat (if they could) !
Extremisim in any form is bad. Islamism and Zionism are extremist idealogies as they both want to wipe out others.
Ask the millions of muslims who live in Israel as equal rights citizens with better lives than they'd have in any muslim country and you'd be surprised... Then ask yourself where are the jews who live in muslim countries...
I think a very similar battle did take place, and that was in Somalia with Black Hawk Down, and the civilian to the solider ratio was very high. This battle actually inspired all these battles. The U.N. backed away to avoid this type of conflict, which is unprecendent compared to previous wars. The only difference is the media and level of protests. There is a film on it, Black Hawk Down.
What would you say about the battle of Karbala in 1991 when Saddam killed 30,000 in 3 days while taking Kerbala back from the Iraqi resistance?
@@AnAn___ I'm not sure but were the combatants wearing civilian clothes? And was it in a dense city? The Battle of Mogadishu took place in the capital where I was born. Its dense. So you have a lot of civilians and soldiers wearing regular clothes. This is why the death toll was high. They also starved the citizens to lure the soliders out to battle. It was tactics rarely seen before but this war is that x 100. And Hamas has used every tactic but it makes sense since these groups are all connected. And we are referring to civilians being used as shields Anan not civilians being killed outright, history has a lot of those. This is different.
It might help if Israel would allow media and humanitarian aid in to help verify numbers. It seems sketchy that they don't IMHO
Guess why they don't allow it. Ill give you a hint. It rhymes with herbicide.
It’s a war zone. They don’t need random journalists walking around making it harder for them to operate.
More journalists have been killed in Gaza than the entire Vietnam war. But ofc Sam Kahanist would just say "those journalists were all Hamas" or some shit
Someone please explain this to Mehdi Hasan!
What is this Mickey mouse bs?
Sam I listen to you all the time and thoroughly enjoy your level headed approach to discussions. However, Im not with you on this topic. I just think that if Israel had of been nicer to these people from the start we would never have come to this. I don’t support any organisations like Hamas, but nor do I support far-right Israel and for that matter this form of Government anywhere. Truely, men and far-right ideologies everywhere are the problem in the world. Hamas is a right-wing ideology. Yes Im a man, but find nothing manly about the far-right. Thuggery does not cut the mustard!
Yeah, be nice to terrorists. That’ll work. Maybe if we in the US we’re nicer to Al-Qaeda or the Taliban 9/11 wouldn’t have happened…are you serious?! Hamas and Hezbollah are islamo-fascist death cults funded by Iran, a gender-apartheid anti-human rights, anti-LGBT, anti-women’s rights, anti-science dictatorship. NOTHING will appease them. Period.
I 100% agree. Sam forgets about basic humanity instead of layering religion. Most people, when given dignity in proper housing, health, and freedom, act well to one another. I want an opposing view on so Sam can stop hiding behind religion and look at the whole scope of things. So narrow
O, its impossible to know. Thats ok then. Thanks
Eyyyy, I mean, whaddya want, a numbah? It's some numbah, who really cares?
Therefore you just trust whoever gives a number? Over the person who explains why that person is BSing you?
@@VesnaVKthere is multitude of reasons beyond numbers as to why what Israel is doing right now is genocide and they're listed under "genocide" page in the dictionary, please take your time looking it up
Ok you still want a number? 0.00165%. That's the percent out of the Gaza population even if we believe Hamas 33k. That's 1/10 of 1% yes?
But still, that's a lot higher than the number on Israel's side on October 7th. So what? Do you use math and statistics to judge morality? What if our laws looked like that?
That would mean if I killed 2 people out of self defense, and someone else just tortured and murdered someone, I would not only be found guilty, I'd get sentenced for longer than him because hey, I killed twice as many people, right?
Poor form Sam.
Sam, you are a bullhorn for reason and logic. Please, apply the logic formula to what John is saying! If we can't know the number of deaths, how can he declare any data that supports his ratios? And, history shows us that War doesn't work, it is illogical. From Thucydides to now, War just kicks the can down the road. Why hasn't the innocent lives been an issue? Why are we accepting the casualties as a necessary loss? Step back from your rabid justification and see. Thank you, Shannon
agreed - war is illogical. so why did your mates in Hamas start it...?
Sam is never wrong, Iraq1, Iraq2, COVID...
Sam Kahanist
What an utterly shameless grift this channel is
He's interviewing an expert on the topic.
Is this Tim Kennedy?
long story short, no real analysis just rhetoric. "if they're gonna say that, we're gonna say this" type shit...
"Who knows, who cares, why do people keep asking me this question, nobody ever cares about this question in any other conflicts!"
Too many
Interesting how all this expert can do is 'well, if you lowball the Palestinian figures and take the Israeli figures at face value, then the ratio is super low'.
I'd listen again if I were you. And even if he is saying that, I'd trust information from a democratic country over a terrorist autocracy any day. Or do you put more face value on numbers reported by a bunch of homicidal caliphate fanatics who have everything to gain from sowing distrust of democratic systems?
How many non combatants where killed I'm world War two? How many died just bye Arial bombings alone?
How many is too many?
I think it is a dumb question when it comes to this conflict. Unless other Arab armies want to step in and help in the fight against Hamas, that means nobody gets to have a say in it.
Israel is not the one allowing a terror group to build hundred of km of tunnels from donations. Or shooting rockets behind hospitals, mosques and schools. That is Gazans. Good luck to them. They have made their beds.
@@Alnivol666 what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever read. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this here is now dumber for having listened to it. may god have mercy on your soul.
Nothing good ever comes from a bad idea. Creating a Jewish state in the middle east on someone else's land is ludicrous! Running an apartheid state in the 21st century is unbelievable. That they have so much support is eye-opening.
@@deiteOs someone else's land? What? Who did the land belong yo you think? There is no apartheid in Israel by the way. Maybe check Lebanon.
not enough for Sam "Hasbara" Harris
Ministry of Truth!
Bibi said they found a copy of mein kampf, in gaza. So, its all ok.
Ever heard of the Quran? Basically the orginial Mein kampf, only a lot more violent.
The absurdity of calling Palestinians the natzis. When the Israeli are the ones who have created concentration camps, carry out pogroms every couple of years, dehumanize the Palestinians and are now murdering woman and children. 🤔
There is a asteroid about to hit the earth. Has Political commentator, neuroscientist, Podcaster and lifestyle guru Sam Harris been invited in the meeting to discuss his opinions on how to stop the asteroid from colliding with the earth and save the planet.
I will be surprised if the number is 35,000(including fighters) not because it sounds overblown, but because with the destruction of the area, it seems an underestimate. This analysis seems to use the Covid-sceptic logic of, well how many died with covid, opposed to by covid?
There are no independent observers allowed in this war, so we are all left guessing. That is to the benefit of both sides, but not to those who desire the truth, and seek the regulation of conflict, if it must occur.
Israel allowed weeks for civilians to evacuate from north Gaza before they invaded. The damage was done to mostly empty buildings, and any civilians who died were either forced to stay put by Hamas or chose to stay to support it.
The onus can't be put on Israel
@@c1tywi Yes it can.
@@c1tywiwhere's the evidence that hamas was forcing people?
@@charlesmarlowstanfield How is Hamas not the guilty party here?
@@c1tywi The onus can be placed on Israel, it is a choice to bomb a civilian area. The bombs did not just drop in the north either. Every built up area (north/south) has been bombed. Estimates of 56% of pre-war buildings damaged or destroyed. Your other claims (as noted initially) cannot be verified independently. The claim that people were forced to stay by Hamas, does not aid Israel's side of the story, even if it can be proved independently.
CRYPTIQ : China Russia Yemen Pakistan Turkey Iran Qatar
Sam 'Totally Partial On The Issue' Harris
I liked your articulation in the past mr harris. But you are bigotted click baitty character has come forth. You are using your power of pursuation immorally, no better than fox news. Not that you care, but you lost a follower. Probably (hopefully) many many.
the religion vs atheist culture wars have died down so he had to find a new niche to spew bs to keep his career alive
Yeah, let's listen to the guy who makes money off war and literally his career depends on defending western militaries 🙄
...sounds a lot like the "experts" during the iraq war
Sam invited someone on that would tell him what he wants to hear, the definition of an echo chamber. Crazy that I had found out about Sam back when he did the opposite and debated people. Far fall.
@@shawqiha he had a fun lane, and probably the best guy on the planet doing it, of talking to scientists and being the interlocutor of complex subjects. Now he is doing the same thing as thousands are and he's not special at it. Literally a random guy walking down the street can produce this political content
He is guilty of the sin which he accuses everyone else of. That is confirmation bias.
Right, instead let's listen to the terror organization who uses its own people as human shields with the intention of using civilian death tolls as it's tactic to have the world stop Israel from destroying it ! THAT is surely who we need to listen to.
According the Hamas health ministry they themselves are civilians as well
Debating the accuracy of number of deaths in Gaza while ignoring the bigger picture. One thing’s clear, there is incomparable civilian death on one side of this conflict, perpetuated by one U.S. backed military.
The bigger picture being that Hamas, and the civilians backing them, want to exterminate Jews from the river to the sea? I'd say it's surprising that the IDF haven't removed their kid gloves.
Are you seriously criticizing the IDF for not dying enough? How dare they win, right? How dare they lose less of their people in a defensive war they didn’t ask for. 😅 Your moral intelligence is severely impaired.
(Edit because RUclips keeps deleting my comments)
Yeah. Nobody should be surprised that Israel loses less people in these wars. Typically nations at conflict attempt to un-alive less than their opponents. Unfortunately Hamas is an exception, as maximizing loss of Palestinian life is their stated intention. “ we are a nation of martyrs and we are proud to sacrifice martyrs” (for the purpose of encouraging malice against israel.) however imperfectly Israel cares about Palestinian civilians, they actually care more than Hamas does. The whole hamas political strategy revolves around dead Palestinians.
Brainwashed „civilians“ of a „state“ so morally corrupt that Nazi Germany pales by comparison. Still Israel tries to save as many as possible. I find Israels approach dumbfoundingly concerned with people that want nothing more than to kill Jews in the most humiliating and gruesome way possible.
@@froggo3963 How dare they violently pretend that their invisible friend they say is in the sky is more real than a invisible friend that schizophrenics claim is really real.
Trying to figure out who's in the right by the number of people killed is pretty stupid.
Can we agree the USA and their allies would condemn the slaughter of innocent children, aid workers, journalists if it was done by China responding to an attack by Tibetan freedom fighters.
we already did exactly that in the Ukraine war. But NOW all of a sudden we are deeeeeeply concerned about the jurisdiction of the court thinking about arresting both Hamas and Israeli leaders. Such rank hypocrisy from America and its compliant "public intellectuals" like Sam Kahanist here
Has Sam bothered to have a critic of Israel on once since 10/7?
Victim blaming huh lol
@@BabaBabelOm Wow
Why would he bother listening to terrorist supporters?
@@atlehman69 that’s you. Reflect and repent
@@BabaBabelOmSupporting genocide I see. Wait wait wait let me do it for you.... "You're anti-Semitic because you don't support Israel's crimes"
Thank you. I will be using this clips in future debates.
The answer is "a lot". A fuck ton.
Compared to what? It's not anywhere close to the casualties from other wars in the region which people haven't seem to have gotten very upset over.
Bad answer to good question. Not all that helpful mate
@@timeforsuchawordThat is the most fallacious argument possible right now. How about this: we ARE upset about those other conflicts causing massive loss of life. Now what? Are you on our side now? Or will you just find other justification? You like the people who tell you to support israel, so you support Israel. Dont pretend like your beliefs have logical justification.
@@UncleRimoyet your reply was even more useless lol
So the answer is "we don't know the exact number," and "why are we even concerned about the number.". This strikes me as morally bankrupt. We don't know the exact number of Jews who were killed in the Holocaust, as estimates are exactly that that - estimates. Is that a reason to dismiss a genocide?
I don't disagree overall but doesn't "no one knows" really mean "no one knows exactly"? and of course, no one knows exactly, like no one knows how many hairs are on my head, exactly. but we do know about a range. there is some range between X and Y that must contain the correct number. it is, for example, greater than 0, and less than 500,000. but someone with more information than I have could narrow it further.
I think you missed his entire point.
@@VesnaVK I think the point is that Sam clickbait tricked us into thinking he had a real expert that was going to give a real estimate. Instead he invited a total idiot who told us nothing. He should be ashamed.
@VesnaVK No, you did. The title of the fucking video is to discuss the number.
I think you just went all froth-mouthed with anticipation for your own bloodlust over children dying.
@@VesnaVK no, it's that his point is coming from a place of dishonesty and a lack of moral fibre. Rather than simply denigrate the number, which is what happens here, you could instead have a conversation about trying to work out the real one. It's fine to talk about the accuracy of a statistic, but to not then address how to get closer to the truth show his colours here. He should have as much interest in finding the truth as he does about finding the truth about any other matter that concerns him, but here he doesn't, and that's on purpose.
@@thescoon1 your comment rests entirely on an assumption of bad faith. What is your evidence he is approaching this matter in bad faith? Also, who are you referring to, Harris or Spencer?
what are the "natural causes" that people die from in a war zone? Hunger? Thirst? Lack of medical attention?
How about cancer, old age ect?
@@tomaszdziecielski2634 Certainly! Old age and Cancer, Why didn't I think of that before, maybe it's because of the fact that Gaza is not an advance civilization where people get to be of old age and die in peace but rather in a continuous state of conflict and War for close to a century.
@@nomanzafar4938in my place (Germany) a significant number of people die every day and other are born.
@@tomaszdziecielski2634and? with your logic and I do apologise to have to bring in an example as such, would you say the same for people in concentration camps who were there in miserable conditions and died of "natural causes" whilst in the camps!? How absurd of an assertion to make
@@nomanzafar4938 you can’t compare Gaza to a nazi concentration camp. In this case you should subtract the normal exit rate of a population. In Germany it was over a million last year, per day more than 2700, without a war or a pandemic. The point is that you can not attribute the total number of deaths to the IDF.
Had to unsubscribe after this
He has always been this way
He's interviewing an expert
Sam Harris heroically fighting the information war, simping for the religious zealots, like any good atheist should.
Which religious zealots, everything good and great about Israel comes from the secular Jews, which make up the majority in the country. If it wasn’t for them, Israel would just be another middle eastern failed state.
Right. He's got so much liberal bubble brain rot I barely recognize him anymore
@@atlehman69 Sam Harris isn't sounding the leas bit like a liberal.
@@atlehman69 You think blindly supporting Israel is liberal? In what world do you live? It's a very establishment, center-right position that is backed by the well-funded military industrial complex.
@@bradcofo No its the corporate lib position too. The S***-libs
none.
❤ John Spencer
Need to get him on Piers Morgan to set the record straight!!!
Shame on you, Sam, as intellectual to discuss this issue in this way
I think this conversation is incredibly disingenuous. It's ignoring a vast history of context.
I guess you don't have to be right, as long as you can cast any doubt on your opposition.
Sam malding over the ICC arrest warrants rn
New numbers came out from ... The UN ! 25k
Weird how he failed to mention that Israel defines Hamas as any military aged male. Claims to care about context but not on key details. Also fails to mention that multiple third parties have verified the numbers and cross-referenced them, not just taken the Gaza Health Ministry at their word. Also would like some sources on the 20% number he threw out concerning Hamas rockets.
Wtf are you talking about? Israel doesn’t define any military male as Hamas you’re just making shit up. If you have any evidence to back this up I’ll personally transfer you 10k in cash
Many third parties verified the numbers…HOW EXACTLY
@@Seanonyoutube perhaps if you did a little light research on the matter you might know, it turns out that it's not just the numbers, they have a list of the identities of all the people either killed or presumed buried under the rubble. All of the names are known, and there are no duplicates. Multiple third parties have verified them.
@@VColossalVWho? And how? Legitimate question. Nothing happens in Gaza without Hamas approving it.
@@Alnivol666 Read my last comment.
Who is paying Sam to defend Israel's actions? Jordan Peterson? 🤔
Who is paying you to defend Hamas? Sinuwar?
It’s clear he lost any moral sense on this issue.
it's just a general grift, like the rest of the IDW. Dave Rubin does the same charade for $$$
I wonder if it will take another 20 years for Sam to realise he was dead wrong, just like he was wrong on Iraq.
Bookmark this comment for when you come to your senses.
Why is taking out Hamas wrong and how does this even compare to Iraq? Make it make sense.
@johnkroeger9352 not a lot of discussion from Sam about the mass graves containing the corpses of people with catheters in and hands bound indicating summary execution. Nor any talk of the concentration camps in the south where amputation of hands and feet due to prolonged use of zip tie restraints.
He'll get there though. 20 years or so.
I don’t think he ever will. He will just live more and more detached from reality.
has he ever admitted he was wrong about Iraq?
Most conservatives (like Sam Hasbara) I know just lie and say they always opposed the war. My dad was so bloodthirsty watching Fox News my whole life growing up but now says he never supported the invasion.
Conservatism gives you brain worms
I've lost all respect for Sam.
I appreciate the perspective and that people ought to be suspicious of the death toll published by Hamas (even if the track record in past Gazan conflicts has been accurate), but I don't understand the implication that this is favorable to Israel. He reassures us that the death toll is likely higher in his expert opinion. This should solidify people in the opinion that urban warfare should be avoided at practically all costs. Israel needs to be held to the highest standards yet Netanyahu recently said that he has no plans for a post war Gaza even this far into the campaign. This shouldn't come as a surprise either as the alleged goal of eliminating insurgency by bombing Gaza into pieces is self-evidentially not something that will work. In order to support this war you must both think that it is near certain that there will now be no terrorism in Gaza ever again and that the attacks prevented by eliminating terrorism are equivalent to the deaths of 10,000s of Innocent civilians, the destruction of every major city, the trauma of forcing millions to be refugees, and the famine caused by the conflict. Maybe Israel has done about average compared to other urban conflicts but if this is what urban conflict looks like then surely Israel should still be reviled for undertaking this with no actual achievable benefit. It's just pointless cruelty seemingly
"Innocent Palestinians" is an oxymoron
Riiight, so a Palestinian child is born guilty is it?
calm down Satan
IDF propaganda disguised as a "podcast".
And to which kind of propaganda machine do you belong?
@@JohnStopmanMinistry of Truth.
@@MaxG-jk8ty One truly wonders if you know the irony of that...
@@armyfirefighter Completely intentional.
@@MaxG-jk8ty Ministry of truth? Such arrogance 😙
Does he answer? There it is, right at the end, "there is no number". There's a number. The style and rhetoric demand the attention of the world, before that number grows into the million range.
Of course there is a number, but there is no known number. Nobody knows or can even give a mechanism to get something remotely accurate.
Some samples of LAST 20 years:
Nigeria Boko Haram 350,000 dead
Sudan JEM/Darfur 300,000 dead
Yemen Houthis 233,000 dead
Pakistan vs Islamists 50,000 dead
Syria 500,000 dead
South Sudan 400,000 dead
Ethiopia and Eritrea vs Tigray 600,000 dead
No protests for all these dead.
Can't help but think of Bobs words:
And how many ears must one man have
Before he can hear people cry?
Yes, and how many deaths will it take 'til he knows
That too many people have died?
The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind
The answer is blowin' in the wind
The in-group preference is strong with Harris
Has he had one critic of Israel on since 10/7?
Has he had a counter opinion on to discuss this conflict once since it started?
Anyone surprised!?
@@jttj742
Yeah, and by that he meant "not *a* tribe... *The* tribe"😅
The out group presence is strong without Harris. Like whoa!
love to hear an extended discussion between Sam and Medhi Hasan
I don’t expect that would go anywhere.
Medhi is jihad-lite. His role is to serve as the gateway drug that gets Leftist Westerners to accept subjugation to sharia
That would involve Sam debate someone who is capable, and doesn't agree with him, and he abandoned that after the atheist movement.
Sam has utterly abandoned debate over worldly topics that don't involve easy culture war layups. He would get absolutely stomped my Medi.
i know Sam has said that he recoils from the topic...i just think Medhi might have the sensitivity to help wade through the moral abyss that Mr Harris is stymied by.
Exactly. There IS no number.
Wow. This is a hard assault on basic reasoning. My brain hurts.
it's an assault on basic morality. Hairsplitting nonsense by an overpaid Canary Mission troll posing as a philosopher
Well who knows i guess. Move along then. Nothing to learn here.