I don’t even thinks thats that ridiculous. Imagine you are tactically running in the woods, and tactically tripping over a tactical branch into tactical mud.
@@mattc6940 yeah but now you have to wipe sandy mud off the glass and out of the turrets, it makes me cringe to think about. Zeroing is just a good excuse to go shooting lol
Mike you must really love us. I could never do this to any of my rifles. Thanks for taking one for the team! The results of this were indeed surprising. Seems like the tighter tolerances of the AR platform were actually an advantage for the mud along with the close bolt. The looser tolerances of the AK along with all that bolt and piston mass were an advantage for the freezing test. Very interesting results!
I think the DI M4/AR platforms did so well cause the gas pressure in the receiver helped clear the mud from the ejection port. Most of the piston guns struggled to do so.
Exactly, I've seen similar results in other tests and with DI ARs you see debris practically explode away from the ejection port as the gun cycles. DI transfers more heat and fouling into the receiver when compared to a piston gun, but as I understand it that's as much a feature as a bug. Gas is shunted from the gas tube into the bolt via the key, and vented out of the carrier beside the gas rings. That combined with the fact that the DI system puts the rest of the receiver under positive pressure means that it clears it's own ejection port as it's fired
Old comment, but yeah I thought that was interesting. Because those holes vent the gas out of the ejection port essentially correct? Incredible engineering.
@@saltypickle617Yeah, the direct impingement guns route gas back to the bolt carrier group to push the bolt back. So this increases pressure in the receiver area and looks like it kinda cleans mud away from the ejection port.
AR design keeps mud out of the action in the first place. However, It would likely do less well in sand....which is where the AK pattern would likely do better.
unless there's a co-op happening with either James Cameron (on the ocean floor) or one of the spacemen for testin in orbit/on the moon; doesn't ice+mud cover all of them? is sand that different? I don't know jack, im not a gunowner so i'm more or less asking?
I want see sand/dust. Direct Impingement ARs will probably have problems with it. Although, sand is is abrasive and will damage the guns, so we probably won’t see this.
He has a full line up of really nice rifles. I can his anxiety of mud testing them. Now with that many rifles he must have a special truck rack to bring them put there.
The M4 platform is very underrated in terms of reliability. When I went through army basic we were using extremely used and abused FN M4s. Ridiculous sand and rain at Fort Jackson. Zero malfunctions and at the end I was put on the detail escorting the civilian armorers and my M4 failed head space test. Meaning I shot expert without a single malfunction on a broken weapon.
@@Vernich762 At the end of basic they sent in armorers to inspect and fix all the rifles for the next class. ruclips.net/video/15VdGJSFihI/видео.html this link explains it. My rifle was a no go but worked the whole time.
I like how the AK's loose clearances allows the action to knock out any solid ice inside, but allows for liquid mud to enter and make a mess. While the AR's sealed design is better for sealing itself up against mud, but the tight nature of the design means that it can hardly move around once clogged up completely by frozen ice.
@@draconicdolor5523 Minus that Russia is icy during the winter and super muddy in the spring when it all melts. The Germans and Russians had major issues with Russian spring mud during WWII. Edit: And now they're dealing with it in Ukraine.
Moral of the story: when fighting in the Arctic, take an AK. For everywhere else, the AR is king! Also, speaking from personal experience, I've never had the AR fail me downrange. Wipe it down every once in a while, don't over-lube it (just enough or it gets extra sloppy), and it will treat you right.
My guess (emphasis on guess) is that high quality properly loaded ammo will probably fire just fine (as we saw for about 2 rounds) and in a combat situation I would rather have my weapon continue to fire instead of malfunction (that is impressive). That being said, weak or damaged casings (reloaded too many times brass, bad/rusted steal, etc) or hot loads from a sloppy reload or poor quality for military ammo and now you are in trouble. Maybe loose and eye or finger and a weapon that is out of commission in the field (this is terrifying).
What that says it that Galil wasn't designed good enough. A gun firing out of battery is a bad design. One wrong case and you're fucked. It might be just this one specific gun or it might be all Galils, who the fuck knows, but the one used in the video should get checked cause it's not safe to use.
The hazard here is that if the round isn't fully seated the bullet isn't properly alligned with the barrel. Because we use rounds with a different dimension for the bullet diameter and the casing diameter (contrasting with archaic rimmed cartridges with flat walls) if the cartridge isn't fully seated forward the bullet inherently will have wiggle room. Any misalignment, say from mud, might cause the bullet to be fired at an angle and impact the chamber or barrel wall. It's definitely not optimal
judging from the ice test, mud test and sand tests from other YT channels i have come to the conclusion that if you find yourself in a war zone and you have a choice between an m14 and a rock your chances of survival are better with a rock
As an "AK Guy" myself, I do say that I am sad that they both failed, but I am happy to know that they were not the only ones that failed. All of them performed well, and you must give credit where credit is due! Guess this is just incentive to get both platforms!
Они не оригиналы, АКМ советских уже не достать, видимо этот либо румынский либо китайский. АК 105 американский, детали плотно подогнаны и нет "зазора надёжности"
I'd like to see some of the more rare Russian AK variants get tested. I have a Izhmash Saiga AK in .308/7.62x51 from before they were banned from import and I'd be curious to see how it'd do in these tests. Molot Vepr and Izhmash Saiga were both known for making indestructible AK
@@iksdik Пфф, у США куча оригинальных АК-74, АК-74М, АКМ, АК-105 со времён Иракской, Вьетнамской и Афганской войны.Оригинальный АК очень легко достать.
If you've ever bought a new gun, and to answer everyone who was asking why you bought it, you showed them the Garand Thumb video about it, go ahead and hit that subscribe button!
I think it actually makes a lot of sense that the m4, and it's variants is able to expel mud from the ejection port. It vents gas through a gas port located on the bolt carrier. Thus forcing the mud out of the way, and allowing the round to extract properly. It's also why the dust cover flies open when ever a round is fired. While a piston systems use momentum to cycle the bolt, there is nothing to actually force mud out of the way and thus the round it tries to eject gets stuck. So although the gun can cycle properly it is unable to eject the round. It is kind of a niche since a soldier would usually do the customary shake. Still though Eugene Stoner is an absolute genius.
The gas coming back from the DI system is probably why the DI AR’s do so well. The gas is probably blowing that mud out of the system. Most of the piston rifles didn’t do as well because there is no gas coming back.
Yup, those two holes in the side of the bolt are where the gas gets vented after it keeps the bolt locked initially. The original DI AR15 is designed to blow dirt and debris out of the action.
That's exactly what's happening. If you watch InRangeTV's mud tests in the slow mo the gas actually blows all that mud out and allows it to cycle more reliably than the AK
Well that's what it's for... The FNC has the same gas port system, and it's awesome in shitty environments or when your gun is just disgusting from training all day with it.
As a long time AK user, I'm not entirely sure where the "You can pour mud into it, and it'll work!" idea started. The only good part about an AK in a situation like this, is the ease of access to solve the problem. You have big boy controls, and you can yank your dust cover and pour out the debris/problem solve with relative ease. While the AK is less likely to stall due to small debris (i.e. pieces of primer that can jam an M4 trigger group) inside, the idea that it'll power through mud in the receiver is internet myth. While the AK components in the gun are larger/more robust/simpler than an AR - meaning you can indeed dig one up from the ground in Africa after 20 years and shoot the thing...you still gotta clean it and occasionally lube that thing. The only things you're missing are the abundant small springs/tiny pieces which the AR possesses (the main things which contributed to the poor performance in the ice). In the words of some of our favourite instructors, the AK is not infallible - but fortunately it tends to be easier to unfuck.
What I find interesting is that you could pull that cleaning rod out and have a go at the barrel from the muzzle end and possibly clear that rock/debris get back in the fight. Nothing else on the table has the rod right there. Might not have made a difference, but I was hoping he would try it.
Very well put. I have seen the sand tests, where AKs can literally take all that will fit inside the receiver & still function, because it gets swept & blown out. The adhesion & rock content you get with mud is a whole extra set of problems. Its surprising that any semi auto ran with that blob of mud over the port.
I love how AKs always fail on mud tests. Both of the AKs I've owned didn't need mud to fail, hell half of the AKs I've ever used would fail in one way or another consistently, it really speaks to how much variability there has been with AKs in the US market.
The DI bolts blowing gas out the side of the ejection port did wonders. Every piston gun had the same failure to eject with the caked on mud, the only AR type gun to fail was the piston HK system. What a crazy byproduct of a DI bolt. So cool.
@@slick4415 Well for this edge case of ejection port mud cake, piston guns just so happen to not blast gas out the side. I wonder if we will see this implemented in future gun designs just for this very reason.
@@slick4415 right, my experience has beat to death m16s working more reliably than the m27 in harsh conditions. Another thing I notice too is the HK short strokes when mud is dried in the piston return spring. I'd love to see someone test that out and see if its not just my experience.
for 4 seconds and you get a like, Mike. Proud of you. Interesting to note, the full mud tests obstructing the discharge port which passed, when the first round went, it blew all the mud off clearing the way for the rest and didn't pull mud into the device, i feel like its how the designer is utilizing the gas? (block II and SR-15 in particular) over gassing maybe? pretty neat though.
This is a feature of the DI system. People malign it for depositing heat and fouling on action components and act like Stoner was a moron for not anticipating this, but the tradeoff is that the receiver and even bolt carrier is under positive pressure during extraction. I'm guessing what blew the mud away from the port before the shell even extracted are the small holes you see in the carrier- remember that gas vents from the tube, through the gas key, and into the bolt to equalize pressure on the bolt head as the gun cycles
It may be inferior in every way, but it has the most important factor on lock. It's aesthetic. It looks like it's about to put on mirrored aviators, pound some cocaine, and have three day sex party.
Only reason the AR ever had any sort of bad rap was because of the original M-16 that was issued in the beginning of nam. There has been a few improvements since then including the issued ammunition.
@@CrpMag Actually the first ones weren't bad either. The only real upgrade that helped reliability on the later models was a chromed chamber which was beneficial if people didn't keep their guns cleaned. Things rust like crazy in the jungle environment so with a bunch of draftees not caring enough to clean their rifles once that chamber gets dirty and wet it will rust and eventually pit. Then the brass will expand into the pitting and not extract and can rip the head off of the case trying to get it out. The other big problem wasn't firearm related but ammunition related when they switched powders to save money since they already had a surplus of the old stuff and decided to make it work. It was much dirtier and I believe had to be pushed to a higher PSI to achieve the same velocity. If you kept your rifle clean it should have been fine either way, but lack in cleaning would cause issues even faster with the powder change.
While on the subject for anyone interested in this subject of real "reliability improvements" in the AR platform I will list them real quick. The chrome chamber helped quite a bit in Vietnam and was introduced in the mid-late 60's but the earlier rifles were fine if kept clean. One other reliability improvement they did in Vietnam was change the buffer system from the Edgewater to the current system. The original Edgewater system worked great and had a faster cyclic rate but in rare cases could freeze up and cause issues. My uncle actually had a M14 in nam originally and said the humidity would rust the bolt shut if he didn't cycle the action every day. He then later had a pieced together M16 the armorer put together using the oldest model the 601 made in the late 50's with the slower 1-14 twist barrel and Edgewater buffer system and never had any trouble out of it nor seen anyone else having issues with their newer 603 models with the updates. Well after Vietnam and even after the A2 in the 80's when we went to the Carbine system there was occasional extraction issues especially with worn springs. A simple fix that remains on almost all bolts this day is a o-ring under the spring to add tension. That with a decent spring is the best reliability mod you can make if your bolt doesn't have one. They aren't really needed on 20" rifle gas systems but help a lot on the shorter gas systems. So the only real improvements in reliability of the M16 from the first 601 model in the 50's to today is the Chrome chamber, and extra tension on the extractor with a more modernized buffer system. These things weren't really issues if you took proper care of your firearm but they give a bigger margin of error and help quite a bit when you are neglecting upkeep.
The fact that it took everything but actively trying to push mud into the ejection ports on some of these rifles to just cause them to jam up is really, really impressive design work.
This isn't really a proper mud test. A real test would be full immersion in thick mud so the whole weapon disappears, is then retrieved and fired then reloaded with another mag and fired again. The only gun I've ever seen pass that test was the Owen submachine carbine in historical WW2 footage.
I see you have a modern FN there, that's interesting to me. I can tell you, from experience as a young soldier from the age of 16, that when I first joined the British Army we used the L1-A1 SLR (which was a semi automatic version of the original 7.62 FN FAL) and you could do shit loads to her and she'd still fire without any problems all day long. She was an absolutely beautiful weapon, unbelievably powerful and fantastically reliable....... I loved her!!!!!
The Block II spitting brass as hard as it did through mud was surprising, considering the MR556A1/416 malfunctioned at the same point in the test and kind set my expectations for the other AR-15s on the table. But the difference in operating mechanism, as others have pointed out, with the 416 being a piston system and the Block II and SR-15 being DI guns, makes sense as to why they'd walk away victorious here. Like you said, there's a tool for every job. I live in Florida where ice is no issue, but I'm interested to see a sand test at some point since I have a DI AR-15. If I ever find myself in a muddy environment, though, I'll be glad to have this mud test info in my back pocket.
a majority of the guns here in this vid have been used in the middle east for a long time, the AR and AK platform have shown their worth in the sand. What will undoubtedly be the most reliable in sand is the Kac sr15 and sr25, since their bolt is literally called the SandCutter haha
Question, if this did happen to you how would you clean the rifle? I am thinking you would need water at some level? Then completely strip everything and judiciously lube the parts and reassemble. Never cleaned my gun with water before And wondering if that is a mistake?
The Australian army declassified their testing data from when they initially chose it as their standard weapon. The results were interesting and indicated the reliability in adverse conditions was great. If I remember correctly, they submerged the rifle in a barrel of mud for an extended period of time and it still fired. Makes me wonder why they're so eager to swap it out for an AR variant now.
The ARs venting gas out of the side of the bolt before it unlocks really clears away all of the mud. It's funny that people want piston ARs because of their supposed increased reliability, when the DI guns completely smoked them.
The reason delta force wanted a piston AR (HK416) was because their 10in ARs didn’t do so well running full auto and suppressed. So as long as you’re not trying to run an AR-15 full-auto,suppressed and with a 10.5 barrel then they are golden. And it was the HK416 that kicked off the whole piston AR craze, it had little to do with carbon/heat in the bolt/chamber that was mostly marketing
@@selonianth Running a DI gun with a can will give you a lot of gas in the face, especially in full auto. A short stroke piston system vents the excess gas into the handguard, as opposed to the receiver. There are other ways to deal with this, like adjustable gas blocks, better charging handles etc. but there is a there there. For a while the idea that piston systems are inherently more reliable than DI was popular, but this isn't really the case.
The FNC has got to be the hardest ejecting rifle ever made. I had three and every one of them sent the brass into outer space. Standing on level ground about 30 to 50 yards away or more.
in PNW so there's a large range of weather conditions, especially the last few years. Although sand conditions are a bit rare unless you hit central oregon.
Just now seeing this video a year later. Very interesting results and glad I have an order in for a 5.56 LMT piston. I think it would have been also interesting to see the results of budget versions of AR and AK and the other platforms.
Jesse, Just curious why you have decided on LMT piston? I have several Lmt’s, DI versions, but, I understand their and other piston systems, besides hk, are not good. This also is somewhat confirmed through battle field Vegas
That absolutely shocked “What? Where, HOW?!” just got me. Also this is a great visual representation of no matter how life or death it may be… shake that shit off at least. Shooting back slowly is better than dying quickly due to some malfunction.
That stupid story from Vietnam, they found an AK buried in a pit, dug it out and didn’t even clean out rifle and it fired, yeah sure, had mud in barrel and still fired.
@@WTFisTingispingis very first day I was ever at a shooting range this crazy guy showed up with AK and was shooting it right next to me to annoy me(because I had an AR15) and somehow that day he blew it up, he was throwing it around and I believe dirt got inside barrel and it popped! That was my introduction into the AR vs AK stuff, it was first day I owned any rifle. The mini 14 guys were biggest idiots, they would say an AR jams up with one spec of dirt on it, which actually is opposite of truth, mini 14 jams super quick with any mud or dirt on it while AR does best in mud tests. I currently own a Colt AR15 and Russian AK74.
Let's be honest here, who HASN'T dropped their rifle in the mud accidentally when their mom called them to come get lunchables? I assume it's happened to everyone at some point.
Yeah i remember at my 6th birthday party, mom called us in for dinner and out of pure excitement for caviar and rits crackers, I stuffed my m1 abrahms directly in the neighborhood pete bog. Ill never forget the mud horror. Still fired though after being fully submerged for 3 hours 🤷♀️
I knew the M14 was gonna fail my friends dad that was is Vietnam said his M14 always malfunctioned whenever it endured any of the elements 😅but then he switched to the M16 he said it was no different
The conclusion… The AR is a tight tolerance closed system so it can bind up in freezing weather but repels foreign components better. The AK is the opposite.
ARs don't bind up in freezing weather. They bind up if you pour water into the action in freezing temperatures and then let it freeze for hours and then immediately try to shoot it. So in no realistic situation.
27:20 Galil bolt carrier cam track (and also AK by extension) has a long underlug. Meaning, there's a lot of travel fore and aft even after the bolt carrier has locked the bolt into battery. So you can see that even if the BCG isn't fully home, the bolt is actually home because long underlug, and therefore hammer can strike the bolt tail area with the head of firing pin sticking out, hence rifle fires safely. Technically, the hammer FORCES the BCG to travel the rest of the way forward and then hits the firing pin, you get the idea. It's just dead space that's there mainly for the unlocking phase - delays the onset of extraction which makes extraction easier. TL DR that's not a bug, that's a feature.
There was a comment a saw about asking to see the brass of it but, it would be great to see could that be a life ending failure to happen or could you just see a failure of fire? Essentially would that function survive a mag dump? Be interesting to see in slow motion safely aswell
Hilarious but informative: seeing the mud streak across your face barely change in between shooting so many different weapons is a reminder that cheek weld placement is pretty important.
The AK pattern rifle failures make sense, in range TV showed that mud likes to get into the locking lugs for the bolt. As far as the Jim fuller AK I suspect the reason why that one was the worse is because it's not as gassed up as the AKM
To me the next question would be "So those guns are completely gunked up, which one is the fastest back in business ?" Maybe the AK could win in that department.
InRange tests are unrealistic at best because their 'mud' is actually desert sand mixed with water, which is completely idiotic to use as 'mud' since circumstances of encountering such 'mud' are very limited to say the least, the type of 'mud' one might to deal with will most likely be soil or clay based, which would make it easier/harder to get into crevices and less/more likely to cause a malfunction of the gun.
Tbh it's mostly the DI system spewing gas(and the casing along with it) out that helped the most You can see the piston AR style rifles jammed or had some form of failure to extract, as does the AK
I’m impressed. Always been told that the AK platform could be “Thrown in the mud and work fine”. Same goes for AR’s “always jam if you get a spec of dust in them”. However, I’m glad these guys did it for me and have exposed the lies I’ve always been told were true
Mine has shot fine while filthy. Honestly, though…who the hell let’s their rifle get THAT muddy? A rock in the action will stop a .50, so I’m not surprised it stopped an ak. I live in the south, we have some swampy shit. I’m not too worried about ignoring in mud like that, lol.
i would have to also think that has to do with the type of ak since they used the AKM and 105. and that whole it can be thrown in anything and still work comes from the 47 variant but that's just a guess.
Im starting to think those tropes come from boomers who never shot either in combat and just repeated the same bs for years. Kind of like the crock of shit that the Germans would “hear” the Garand ping and know they were out of ammo a hundred yards away in the middle of a warzone.
The closed design does make sense for the AR to do well. I've been told it's tolerances are pretty meticulously crafted. Would also explain why ice would fuck it up because it slightly warps the components.
@@awaycomet5673 Only difference between an AKM and an AK-47 as far as I am aware is the type of metal used for the receiver.. not sure if it would have much effect in this test
I like how GarandThumb’s channel has gone from über serious, to serious with a bit more fun. It’s a nice change because, yes, guns are serious and should always be taken as such, but they still can be a very good time if handled properly.
Oh now, my handguard and buttstock and even my receivers got muddy! Luckily the internals were protected by keeping the ejection port covers closed and still worked 😅 what a test
I also believe part of the reason is with the AR gas impingement system the ports on the bolt carrier force a lot of the mud off of the chamber area before the bolt starts going back clearing the way for the casing
Videos like this are what really influence my purchases. Reliability, durability, looks, etc. I'm finally getting my hands on a SCAR-16, saw a video of a Ukrainian soldier talking about how much he likes the weapon while fighting, kinda sold me on it
I think what we just witnessed with the AR’s vs the MCX is that the blowback from the direct impingement systems actually blew the caked mud off the ejection port where the piston driven MCX didn’t have that blast to clear the mud out. Fascinating.
Dude i'm so sorry you had to do that to your rifles. Honestly through I've been wondering this for years, and you are a champion among all of us for taking the sacrifice. Have fun cleaning those guns man!
AR-15 has positive internal pressure because it "shits where it eats". This is why it was able to avoid stovepipe malfunction, because the mud was at least loosened up if not blown away thanks to the gas system.
The FAL carrier and receiver is a close fit. There are "sand cut" carriers and receivers that allow pockets in the action for the accumulation of debris to collect. There is also a rare ejection port dust cover body cover that was made. The use of these would help the FAL. In a pinch you can also quickly remove the steel body cover if need be.
I’m an AK guy all day. But I’m happy to see the AR guys win on this one. I felt bad after that Freeze test. The AR platform is an incredible feat of engineering that I marvel.
@@Eric__B Since the AK problems were related with going into battery due to mud in front of the bolt I don't think overgassing it will make any difference, they blew open just fine already. Closing is done by the springs.
@@DAKOTA56777 When did it get in between the bolt face and the barrel? It got in after a round was fired and the bolt opened. A bit more gas and the spent shell might have knocked more of the mud outward on its way out. Also a bit more gas means harder recoil impulse and more mud removal. Not saying for sure an overgassed AK would survive but I'd be curious to see how it compared
@@Eric__B Possibly, but I personally doubt it would make much of a difference, it's still only 7.62x39, even overgassed it's not going to put out a lot of recoil to shake itself of mud, but I'll grant you that it may have a slim chance of making a difference.
Great Video!!! People often criticize the direct gas impingement system of the AR15 because it blows powder residue into the action, but I have always argued that the DI system also blows junk out of the action. This video clearly supports that same conclusion. Powder residue is so fine that in all but the most neglected conditions poses little threat to functionality.
Oh, and piston driven guns no not create a positive pressure environment inside the action and therefore do not naturally evacuate debris. This leaves piston driven guns more prone the failure in the mud.
@@PracticalTacticalAccuracy It's even worse, a tightly designed externally gassed weapon is going to generate *negative* pressure as the bolt is driven back initially, something has to displace the volume that's moving out of the front of the action. It will literally suck mud into the action... potentially not much, but some.
I always thought the Stoner pattern's direct impingement gas system was a bad idea, but that and the pull rod charger seem to be the secret to its mud resistance. The gas system simply blows crud out while it's cycling, and the charging system doesn't provide an entry path.
I’m betting his reaction is that he won’t react at all lol. He’s probably thinking ‘let’s not talk about this video. Ever…” I still like AK’s tho… But I also like AR’s, so that’s why I have both. Every tool has its purpose. Why limit yourself with just one platform?
As a huge M1/M14/M1A fan it was heartbreaking but not surprising to see the weapon fail. The design is outdated. Better options are available for the extreme conditions. Thank you for these tests. They are entertaining.
Even InRangeTV did a mud test on the M14 and got the same result. As much as I love the design, the action is way too open to keep mud away from the moving parts, and there are too many tiny nooks and crannies for even the smallest of pebbles to fall in to and jam the action.
carbine length gas system in a 14.5 seems like a pretty practical choice, which is literally an M4. Wow imagine that engineers know what they're doing lol
This definitely shows the imperfections of the design of the AK, adn I believe that the AK system can really learn from the M4 here. There are already manufactures out there that make very enclosed AKs, and one of its problems is that M4s actually have a little flute on the bit that showsout of the ejection port. This is a place that gives mud clearance to be in when it has them. Just unfortunate that the guns would cease up in other places, even though it's resistant to mud... it isn't so much so whe it comes to dust. I would love to see one of the AK manufactures basically completely rework the AK, and make it much more resistant to other environmental factors. the AK platform, if it wasn't that open, with its high imperfection tolerance, would be litearlly a "work at anywhere, anytime" kind of weapon, for sure.
It's amazing how many people I've told this and they argue against it, many of them military vets. Then they tell me the horror stories of the shitty rifles an armorer threw together and I ask them: what failed you, a bad design or bad workmanship? Eugene Stoner was a genius, the John Browning of his era.
I'm a vet and honestly the ar is a lil bitch when it comes to getting dirty. All it takes is one water logged chest deep trench and that's it for half the weapons in a platoon and that always seemed like a huge flaw to me
@@moisesaguirre515 so what you’re saying is that you never learned how to hold a rifle over your head when walking through chest deep water, something all soldiers have been taught to do SINCE THE INVENTION OF FIREARMS?
@@bubbathedm that's a software solution to a hardware problem. Luckily I've only encountered such conditions in training (which is how I know for a fact that a wet enough trench has the power to disarm half a platoon) but if Americans found themselves fighting in the mud for weeks on end I'm pretty sure I know how it's going to go unless we have massive air superiority. AK is more vulnerable to getting material inside of the weapon but you can clear basically any fouling by working the action. A mucked up m16 will not even let you pull back the charging handle
Yeah I saw Ian’s test and was really impressed with it. This just confirms his findings. So, if you’re headed into a jungle or muddy environment; bring your AR15. Headed into the frozen tundra; AK47
I felt this test was more helpful than the ice test. If you fall in the mud you're gonna shake off your rifle, and they did, but they practically submerged the rifles in water in the ice test and made no effort to shake them out before freezing.
It really does make sense though, the M16/AR platform of weapons was originally made for use in Vietnam, which is muddy and humid. The US also does vary, but unless you live in Alaska, it doesn’t get as cold as russia in the US. The AK was made in Russia, which is cold and snowy nearly all year long.
Aks: "We were built for ice", ARs: "We were built for random shit, in warm climates", and M14s: "I'm too old for this shit".
Underrated comment!
Sand is not an ar15s friend, anyone who deployed to a desert knows that.
I’m a m14 guy
@@jacksonkennedy5987 I’m sorry for your loss
@@Greyhound706 ha ha ha yeah
I don’t even thinks thats that ridiculous. Imagine you are tactically running in the woods, and tactically tripping over a tactical branch into tactical mud.
Or if we had to hide in the mud to avoid an Alien Bounty Hunter?
And not having time to tactically shake your rifle
Tactically.
hahahahahaha
Oh right, the tactical rifle. The tactical rifle for Garand Thumb, the tactical rifle chosen specifically by Garand Thumb, Thumb's Tactical.
That Block II ejecting brass through a smoking hole in the mud was straight up magical.
What upper is it tho
@@65thhitman86He literally says at the beginning. A gov Block II upper on a civi lower
I love how the AUG made a little 'ploop' into the mud like the fish it is.
😂
please explain the science behind this comment being so funny
💀
That is hilarious
It clearly is an alien.
Use this as a “do sand next” button
69th like. I think it's working.
205th like. I definitely think it’s working
250! It’s working for sure!!
382nd like. I think it might work
467th like
Next on GT, will these rifles work with ravioli in their action?
- lol preparing for war when it’s sunny with a chance of meatballs.
And obviously the ARX would win
@@9HoleReviews my favorite space rifle
👌👌🤏👐
I'd unironically like to see Grandthumb do this 😂
need to get MattV2088 on this
Nothing was gained by keeping all those beautiful optics on 😢
except for time not re-zeroing them all lol
@@mattc6940 yeah but now you have to wipe sandy mud off the glass and out of the turrets, it makes me cringe to think about. Zeroing is just a good excuse to go shooting lol
@@buckeyebeliever3397 yeah, the whole cleaning process of this entire experiment just makes me sad to think about lol
Yea there is actually, called you keep your zero. Take them off and your out at a bench resetting zero.
Must have been a pain in the Ass to clean all of them.
Mike you must really love us. I could never do this to any of my rifles. Thanks for taking one for the team!
The results of this were indeed surprising. Seems like the tighter tolerances of the AR platform were actually an advantage for the mud along with the close bolt.
The looser tolerances of the AK along with all that bolt and piston mass were an advantage for the freezing test. Very interesting results!
Incoming Reddit posts:
“Where does garand thumb get his mud, it looks cool and I wanted to get some for myself”
Etsy.
I got a supply of authentic garand thumb mud, it only costs 1 Bitcoin per pound.
He obviously mixed dirt with some Brandon Herrera's bathwater.
"Hey guys check it out I cloned Mike's mud!"
@@andreivaldez2929 Brandon got his from Delphine tho...
I think the ARs clear the mud off the ejection port easily because it vents gas out the bolt carrier
Good point
Almost like some mad man designed it that way.
You are right!
Hey, it's you! Like your videos man. More bolt release punches!
mud reload videos, lesgo
Aug performed really well in both tests so did fnc.
Honestly very interested in the Aug after seeing more vids. Very proven rifle and well designed.
And it looks cool af
@@RupertTheOctopus true
It's cool but the trigger is kind of ass.
@@DeuxCheese Agreed, only problem with the one the aus army issued to me (EF88, super tactical version)
@@DeuxCheese I'm at the understanding that a shitty trigger is just part of the bullpup experience.
I think the DI M4/AR platforms did so well cause the gas pressure in the receiver helped clear the mud from the ejection port. Most of the piston guns struggled to do so.
Exactly, I've seen similar results in other tests and with DI ARs you see debris practically explode away from the ejection port as the gun cycles. DI transfers more heat and fouling into the receiver when compared to a piston gun, but as I understand it that's as much a feature as a bug. Gas is shunted from the gas tube into the bolt via the key, and vented out of the carrier beside the gas rings. That combined with the fact that the DI system puts the rest of the receiver under positive pressure means that it clears it's own ejection port as it's fired
Old comment, but yeah I thought that was interesting. Because those holes vent the gas out of the ejection port essentially correct?
Incredible engineering.
@@saltypickle617Yeah, the direct impingement guns route gas back to the bolt carrier group to push the bolt back. So this increases pressure in the receiver area and looks like it kinda cleans mud away from the ejection port.
AR design keeps mud out of the action in the first place. However, It would likely do less well in sand....which is where the AK pattern would likely do better.
Garand Thumb: "Just no way, there's too much mud man!"
SR-15: "And I took that personally."
SCAR: hold my beer
Maybe if it was some secon rate ar, but a KAC? Waste of time I say
Facts
@@Edge51 other than it stovepiped lol.
@@THEZWARRIORWAR lol, because the KAC is way more sealed than other AR's
Testing different platforms reliability when in different elements is a really good video idea and id love to see more
unless there's a co-op happening with either James Cameron (on the ocean floor) or one of the spacemen for testin in orbit/on the moon; doesn't ice+mud cover all of them? is sand that different? I don't know jack, im not a gunowner so i'm more or less asking?
Polenar Tactical mud test ruclips.net/video/Hxvrhb7ayW8/видео.html
I don't know, seeing them get hurt kinda sucks, especially the M-14, I cried a little. Like watching elderly abuse.
@@derekperez1418 guns are tools man. Tools need to thrive on abuse and neglect.
I want see sand/dust. Direct Impingement ARs will probably have problems with it. Although, sand is is abrasive and will damage the guns, so we probably won’t see this.
He has a full line up of really nice rifles. I can his anxiety of mud testing them. Now with that many rifles he must have a special truck rack to bring them put there.
The M4 platform is very underrated in terms of reliability. When I went through army basic we were using extremely used and abused FN M4s. Ridiculous sand and rain at Fort Jackson. Zero malfunctions and at the end I was put on the detail escorting the civilian armorers and my M4 failed head space test. Meaning I shot expert without a single malfunction on a broken weapon.
I’m a civilian so I’m not sure what you talking about. Care to explain?
@@Vernich762 Which part?
The head space test
@@Vernich762 At the end of basic they sent in armorers to inspect and fix all the rifles for the next class. ruclips.net/video/15VdGJSFihI/видео.html this link explains it. My rifle was a no go but worked the whole time.
@@jaconmojica4452 I see
I like how the AK's loose clearances allows the action to knock out any solid ice inside, but allows for liquid mud to enter and make a mess. While the AR's sealed design is better for sealing itself up against mud, but the tight nature of the design means that it can hardly move around once clogged up completely by frozen ice.
They really show the climates the weapons were designed to be used in
@@draconicdolor5523 Minus that Russia is icy during the winter and super muddy in the spring when it all melts. The Germans and Russians had major issues with Russian spring mud during WWII.
Edit: And now they're dealing with it in Ukraine.
Yah Vietnam wasn’t to cold lol
Moral of the story: when fighting in the Arctic, take an AK. For everywhere else, the AR is king! Also, speaking from personal experience, I've never had the AR fail me downrange. Wipe it down every once in a while, don't over-lube it (just enough or it gets extra sloppy), and it will treat you right.
@@protectpersevere2030 They also didn't have cleaning kits in Vietnam + early M16s didn't have the excess gas letoff ports on the side of the bolt.
The Galil firing while not being full into battery is both impressive and absolutely terrifying
My guess (emphasis on guess) is that high quality properly loaded ammo will probably fire just fine (as we saw for about 2 rounds) and in a combat situation I would rather have my weapon continue to fire instead of malfunction (that is impressive). That being said, weak or damaged casings (reloaded too many times brass, bad/rusted steal, etc) or hot loads from a sloppy reload or poor quality for military ammo and now you are in trouble. Maybe loose and eye or finger and a weapon that is out of commission in the field (this is terrifying).
What that says it that Galil wasn't designed good enough. A gun firing out of battery is a bad design. One wrong case and you're fucked. It might be just this one specific gun or it might be all Galils, who the fuck knows, but the one used in the video should get checked cause it's not safe to use.
@@listek981 I lean towards agreeing win you on that. Would be interesting to know what Galil would say about the video!
The hazard here is that if the round isn't fully seated the bullet isn't properly alligned with the barrel. Because we use rounds with a different dimension for the bullet diameter and the casing diameter (contrasting with archaic rimmed cartridges with flat walls) if the cartridge isn't fully seated forward the bullet inherently will have wiggle room. Any misalignment, say from mud, might cause the bullet to be fired at an angle and impact the chamber or barrel wall.
It's definitely not optimal
I was like WTF??😯😬
Impressed, very impressed. ARs are interesting. FN FNC and FAL seemed to do decent in both ice and mud, as did AUG.
Ak people PUNCHING the air after seeing how well the ar’s work 😂😂😂
Where was the Hi Point 10mm carbine?
Dammit Scott, no!
wasn't that the one that at some point stopped working from wear?
In the trash
all the test guns had to be of enough value to make you flinch not laugh when he tossed them in the mud🤣
He didn't want to make the other guns look too bad 🤣🤣🤣🤣
judging from the ice test, mud test and sand tests from other YT channels i have come to the conclusion that if you find yourself in a war zone and you have a choice between an m14 and a rock your chances of survival are better with a rock
It weighs a ton, jams all the time and looks like a Fudd gun. Rock > M14
Thats why i want a m1 Carbine.
@@SentientDMT I don't know the m14 is pretty heavy I would use it as a bat
@@abatperson that's the trick; the m14 is the better pick for a melee weapon but the rock is a better ranged weapon
Can you throw a rock as far as the m14 fires a bullet? Cause you get one shot just sayin. After that it’s a hell of a club.
As an "AK Guy" myself, I do say that I am sad that they both failed, but I am happy to know that they were not the only ones that failed. All of them performed well, and you must give credit where credit is due! Guess this is just incentive to get both platforms!
Они не оригиналы, АКМ советских уже не достать, видимо этот либо румынский либо китайский. АК 105 американский, детали плотно подогнаны и нет "зазора надёжности"
@@iksdik your in denial look at any mud test the Ak performs like shit
I'd like to see some of the more rare Russian AK variants get tested. I have a Izhmash Saiga AK in .308/7.62x51 from before they were banned from import and I'd be curious to see how it'd do in these tests. Molot Vepr and Izhmash Saiga were both known for making indestructible AK
Just don't cover your AKs in mud or freeze your AR's in ice!
@@iksdik Пфф, у США куча оригинальных АК-74, АК-74М, АКМ, АК-105 со времён Иракской, Вьетнамской и Афганской войны.Оригинальный АК очень легко достать.
Almost like the AK works in Siberia and the m16 worked in Vietnam lol
Joke on you.
In Nam, if their ak gets muddy, they will just take the cover off, slap it a little bit and then run the gun naked.
Work like a charm
If you've ever bought a new gun, and to answer everyone who was asking why you bought it, you showed them the Garand Thumb video about it, go ahead and hit that subscribe button!
Holy fucking bots.
BEGONE THBOTS!
This is why I bought a 100 year old model 1897 😂
“These guns are gonna die, Dude”
The sacrifices GT makes to entertain us while pinching a loaf must not go unappreciated.
All the more reason to power shit through thirty plus minutes of leg-numbing forward leans 💪💩
Lmao.
😂😂😂😂😂
I think it actually makes a lot of sense that the m4, and it's variants is able to expel mud from the ejection port. It vents gas through a gas port located on the bolt carrier. Thus forcing the mud out of the way, and allowing the round to extract properly. It's also why the dust cover flies open when ever a round is fired. While a piston systems use momentum to cycle the bolt, there is nothing to actually force mud out of the way and thus the round it tries to eject gets stuck. So although the gun can cycle properly it is unable to eject the round. It is kind of a niche since a soldier would usually do the customary shake. Still though Eugene Stoner is an absolute genius.
That bolt not fully seating and yet still firing on the GALIL is fckn terrifying honestly.
I cant even imagine the cleanup on this, the amount of effort put in is amazing.
I’m sure it involved a water hose and a driveway covered in mud.
Softest nozzle on your pressure washer my guy
Just hug them close while crying in the shower over this atrocity.
A firing tests afterward would be another good test.
fill a bathtub up with ballistol and chuck em all in for a couple days to soak
The gas coming back from the DI system is probably why the DI AR’s do so well. The gas is probably blowing that mud out of the system. Most of the piston rifles didn’t do as well because there is no gas coming back.
A+ for the DI system vent ports.
Yup, those two holes in the side of the bolt are where the gas gets vented after it keeps the bolt locked initially. The original DI AR15 is designed to blow dirt and debris out of the action.
That's exactly what's happening. If you watch InRangeTV's mud tests in the slow mo the gas actually blows all that mud out and allows it to cycle more reliably than the AK
Just as God and Eugene Stoner intended
@@Wh1stle_03 And the greatest American who ever lived: Jesus
Ahhh its a pain to watch the rifles get so muddy
He has managed to buff up impressivly during the past year.
Mini FAL: issues
Mike: just make the gas more violent and it’s fine.
Well that's what it's for... The FNC has the same gas port system, and it's awesome in shitty environments or when your gun is just disgusting from training all day with it.
@@joshkiej6601 I used to really be an AR guy until mine just took a dump on me. I moved on to the B&T platform. Expensive but it’s worth it.
@@Braindoner101 well i'm belgian and in the military, so i kinda am obliged to fanboy over FN, which i do regularly
More Violence is always the answer
It's a metaphor for life, man. The Designers of the FAL were philosophers
As a long time AK user, I'm not entirely sure where the "You can pour mud into it, and it'll work!" idea started. The only good part about an AK in a situation like this, is the ease of access to solve the problem. You have big boy controls, and you can yank your dust cover and pour out the debris/problem solve with relative ease. While the AK is less likely to stall due to small debris (i.e. pieces of primer that can jam an M4 trigger group) inside, the idea that it'll power through mud in the receiver is internet myth. While the AK components in the gun are larger/more robust/simpler than an AR - meaning you can indeed dig one up from the ground in Africa after 20 years and shoot the thing...you still gotta clean it and occasionally lube that thing. The only things you're missing are the abundant small springs/tiny pieces which the AR possesses (the main things which contributed to the poor performance in the ice). In the words of some of our favourite instructors, the AK is not infallible - but fortunately it tends to be easier to unfuck.
What I find interesting is that you could pull that cleaning rod out and have a go at the barrel from the muzzle end and possibly clear that rock/debris get back in the fight. Nothing else on the table has the rod right there. Might not have made a difference, but I was hoping he would try it.
full cope engaged
@@bronsedragon 😂
Very well put. I have seen the sand tests, where AKs can literally take all that will fit inside the receiver & still function, because it gets swept & blown out. The adhesion & rock content you get with mud is a whole extra set of problems. Its surprising that any semi auto ran with that blob of mud over the port.
So u literally answered ur own question
I love how AKs always fail on mud tests. Both of the AKs I've owned didn't need mud to fail, hell half of the AKs I've ever used would fail in one way or another consistently, it really speaks to how much variability there has been with AKs in the US market.
If you're buying U.S. made AKs this is completely expected.
Hey Grand Thumb, thanks for the knowledge. Love the channel. Do you think you could do the same tests with sand?
I love how now Mike and Polenar tactical also have their version of the mud test
@Mr. Squidward 🇮🇱💪
Same day too
their participation in "light infantry 2021" competition, where "each second" AR has failed is even better)
Sooner or later , Polenar will be the next RUclipsr breaking the sr 15.
Yo what the fuck is up with the bots in here lmao
The DI bolts blowing gas out the side of the ejection port did wonders. Every piston gun had the same failure to eject with the caked on mud, the only AR type gun to fail was the piston HK system. What a crazy byproduct of a DI bolt. So cool.
People say pistons are more reliable too
@@slick4415 Well for this edge case of ejection port mud cake, piston guns just so happen to not blast gas out the side. I wonder if we will see this implemented in future gun designs just for this very reason.
You forgot the MCX did the same and it's a piston AR. All the AR's stovepiped but after clearing they fired fine.
@@slick4415 right, my experience has beat to death m16s working more reliably than the m27 in harsh conditions. Another thing I notice too is the HK short strokes when mud is dried in the piston return spring. I'd love to see someone test that out and see if its not just my experience.
@@deejay1534 the mcx didn’t work as well when the mud was left caked on tho
for 4 seconds and you get a like, Mike. Proud of you.
Interesting to note, the full mud tests obstructing the discharge port which passed, when the first round went, it blew all the mud off clearing the way for the rest and didn't pull mud into the device, i feel like its how the designer is utilizing the gas? (block II and SR-15 in particular) over gassing maybe? pretty neat though.
This is a feature of the DI system. People malign it for depositing heat and fouling on action components and act like Stoner was a moron for not anticipating this, but the tradeoff is that the receiver and even bolt carrier is under positive pressure during extraction. I'm guessing what blew the mud away from the port before the shell even extracted are the small holes you see in the carrier- remember that gas vents from the tube, through the gas key, and into the bolt to equalize pressure on the bolt head as the gun cycles
You should do a " 'NAM-test" for an episode, test the modern variants of Vietnam era weapons eg: M16A4=M16A1, MK-14 EBR=M14 And so on
GT needs to go to jail if he ruins a real m16.
The AK platforms did better than I expected actually. But what we can all agree on is that the M14 is inferior to the FAL.
The m14 is inferior to everything
I despise the magazine angle on them. Also Italy somehow did the same thing in like a 10th the time.
M14 is overhyped and overrated.
It may be inferior in every way, but it has the most important factor on lock. It's aesthetic. It looks like it's about to put on mirrored aviators, pound some cocaine, and have three day sex party.
For some redemption of the AK ruclips.net/video/Hxvrhb7ayW8/видео.html
"Those AR's, you just throw a little dust at them and they'll jam."
-Every Fudd ever.
LMFAO
Get you a thurdy-thurdy, you caint hunt deer with them ARs anyway.
@@BezmenovDisciple It's even funnier considering it also failed the Ice Test on the first round 😂
Only reason the AR ever had any sort of bad rap was because of the original M-16 that was issued in the beginning of nam. There has been a few improvements since then including the issued ammunition.
@@CrpMag Actually the first ones weren't bad either. The only real upgrade that helped reliability on the later models was a chromed chamber which was beneficial if people didn't keep their guns cleaned.
Things rust like crazy in the jungle environment so with a bunch of draftees not caring enough to clean their rifles once that chamber gets dirty and wet it will rust and eventually pit. Then the brass will expand into the pitting and not extract and can rip the head off of the case trying to get it out.
The other big problem wasn't firearm related but ammunition related when they switched powders to save money since they already had a surplus of the old stuff and decided to make it work. It was much dirtier and I believe had to be pushed to a higher PSI to achieve the same velocity. If you kept your rifle clean it should have been fine either way, but lack in cleaning would cause issues even faster with the powder change.
While on the subject for anyone interested in this subject of real "reliability improvements" in the AR platform I will list them real quick. The chrome chamber helped quite a bit in Vietnam and was introduced in the mid-late 60's but the earlier rifles were fine if kept clean.
One other reliability improvement they did in Vietnam was change the buffer system from the Edgewater to the current system. The original Edgewater system worked great and had a faster cyclic rate but in rare cases could freeze up and cause issues.
My uncle actually had a M14 in nam originally and said the humidity would rust the bolt shut if he didn't cycle the action every day. He then later had a pieced together M16 the armorer put together using the oldest model the 601 made in the late 50's with the slower 1-14 twist barrel and Edgewater buffer system and never had any trouble out of it nor seen anyone else having issues with their newer 603 models with the updates.
Well after Vietnam and even after the A2 in the 80's when we went to the Carbine system there was occasional extraction issues especially with worn springs. A simple fix that remains on almost all bolts this day is a o-ring under the spring to add tension. That with a decent spring is the best reliability mod you can make if your bolt doesn't have one. They aren't really needed on 20" rifle gas systems but help a lot on the shorter gas systems.
So the only real improvements in reliability of the M16 from the first 601 model in the 50's to today is the Chrome chamber, and extra tension on the extractor with a more modernized buffer system. These things weren't really issues if you took proper care of your firearm but they give a bigger margin of error and help quite a bit when you are neglecting upkeep.
I can smell the gun cleaner all the way up north!!! Well done
The sr15 has always been my favorite ar type weapon and it always will be after this. New ars keep coming out but the sr15 is just always the best
Positive pressure in the AR chambers is likely blowing the mud off the ejection port before the spent casing even touches mud.
The gas vent holes in the bolt already blow some of the mud out of the way before the case even extracts all the way.
They should change “It sh*ts where it eats” to “Its blows dirt and debris away from where it eats.”
The fact that it took everything but actively trying to push mud into the ejection ports on some of these rifles to just cause them to jam up is really, really impressive design work.
This isn't really a proper mud test. A real test would be full immersion in thick mud so the whole weapon disappears, is then retrieved and fired then reloaded with another mag and fired again.
The only gun I've ever seen pass that test was the Owen submachine carbine in historical WW2 footage.
As an AK guy myself, I wasn’t disappointed with this test! Also I like the way this guy talks 💪🏼
I see you have a modern FN there, that's interesting to me. I can tell you, from experience as a young soldier from the age of 16, that when I first joined the British Army we used the L1-A1 SLR (which was a semi automatic version of the original 7.62 FN FAL) and you could do shit loads to her and she'd still fire without any problems all day long. She was an absolutely beautiful weapon, unbelievably powerful and fantastically reliable....... I loved her!!!!!
She's the Right Arm of the Free World for a reason. I want one so badly.
The Block II spitting brass as hard as it did through mud was surprising, considering the MR556A1/416 malfunctioned at the same point in the test and kind set my expectations for the other AR-15s on the table. But the difference in operating mechanism, as others have pointed out, with the 416 being a piston system and the Block II and SR-15 being DI guns, makes sense as to why they'd walk away victorious here. Like you said, there's a tool for every job. I live in Florida where ice is no issue, but I'm interested to see a sand test at some point since I have a DI AR-15. If I ever find myself in a muddy environment, though, I'll be glad to have this mud test info in my back pocket.
Aks are known to perform extremely well in sand. ARs also perform well in sand as long as you dont go crazy with your lube and keep it sealed
I think both ARs and AKs do fine in sand assuming you don't go overboard with it, but I'd still be interested in seeing a sand test!
a majority of the guns here in this vid have been used in the middle east for a long time, the AR and AK platform have shown their worth in the sand. What will undoubtedly be the most reliable in sand is the Kac sr15 and sr25, since their bolt is literally called the SandCutter haha
Question, if this did happen to you how would you clean the rifle? I am thinking you would need water at some level? Then completely strip everything and judiciously lube the parts and reassemble. Never cleaned my gun with water before And wondering if that is a mistake?
@@mynameisjeff6988 don’t forget the galil!
Interesting that AKs and ARs swapped between tests yet the AUG seems pretty reliable in both.
The Australian army declassified their testing data from when they initially chose it as their standard weapon. The results were interesting and indicated the reliability in adverse conditions was great. If I remember correctly, they submerged the rifle in a barrel of mud for an extended period of time and it still fired. Makes me wonder why they're so eager to swap it out for an AR variant now.
@@4scoren744 Cheaper.
@@Bandit4557 better
@@paladinanderson8433 Truth.
@@4scoren744 that testing was done in the 60s. ARs have come along way since then, Augs for the most part haven’t.
The ARs venting gas out of the side of the bolt before it unlocks really clears away all of the mud. It's funny that people want piston ARs because of their supposed increased reliability, when the DI guns completely smoked them.
I noticed the same thing. Direct impingement for the win.
I think the piston driven rifles were mainly to decrease soot load when using a Suppressor
The reason delta force wanted a piston AR (HK416) was because their 10in ARs didn’t do so well running full auto and suppressed. So as long as you’re not trying to run an AR-15 full-auto,suppressed and with a 10.5 barrel then they are golden.
And it was the HK416 that kicked off the whole piston AR craze, it had little to do with carbon/heat in the bolt/chamber that was mostly marketing
@@XTRaptor Elaborate?
@@selonianth
TL;DR
If your not running suppressed off a short barrel then you're better off with a traditional direct impingement AR-15.
@@selonianth Running a DI gun with a can will give you a lot of gas in the face, especially in full auto. A short stroke piston system vents the excess gas into the handguard, as opposed to the receiver. There are other ways to deal with this, like adjustable gas blocks, better charging handles etc. but there is a there there. For a while the idea that piston systems are inherently more reliable than DI was popular, but this isn't really the case.
@Garanda Thumb Please do a sand test and see how well all these new ARs hold up against desert conditions 🙏🙏
The FNC has got to be the hardest ejecting rifle ever made. I had three and every one of them sent the brass into outer space. Standing on level ground about 30 to 50 yards away or more.
Sending brass into lower Earth orbit with the FNC
That's why it's my favourite, full metal shooty tooty, nothing more nothing less
Brass is secondary projectiles when being attacked from the flank
*Ruger Mini 14 Ranch Rifle has entered the chat*
Geo centric orbit speedrun any%
If you've ever watched a torture test for an environment that's nothing like where you live, hit that subscribe button
u have no mud?
@@iIllupo some places don't...
@@Aurora4804 xD like where?? in the ocean? the desert?
in PNW so there's a large range of weather conditions, especially the last few years. Although sand conditions are a bit rare unless you hit central oregon.
If you have ever needed a torture test for almost every environment...you probably live in the Midwest...
Just now seeing this video a year later. Very interesting results and glad I have an order in for a 5.56 LMT piston. I think it would have been also interesting to see the results of budget versions of AR and AK and the other platforms.
Jesse,
Just curious why you have decided on LMT piston?
I have several Lmt’s, DI versions, but, I understand their and other piston systems, besides hk, are not good. This also is somewhat confirmed through battle field Vegas
That absolutely shocked “What? Where, HOW?!” just got me.
Also this is a great visual representation of no matter how life or death it may be… shake that shit off at least. Shooting back slowly is better than dying quickly due to some malfunction.
AK people: You can literally dig an AK out of the mud and it will work fine!
Also AK people: That mud test is ridiculous!
That stupid story from Vietnam, they found an AK buried in a pit, dug it out and didn’t even clean out rifle and it fired, yeah sure, had mud in barrel and still fired.
@@charlieb308 I blame that story for giving AK people reasons to keep defending it.
@@WTFisTingispingis very first day I was ever at a shooting range this crazy guy showed up with AK and was shooting it right next to me to annoy me(because I had an AR15) and somehow that day he blew it up, he was throwing it around and I believe dirt got inside barrel and it popped! That was my introduction into the AR vs AK stuff, it was first day I owned any rifle. The mini 14 guys were biggest idiots, they would say an AR jams up with one spec of dirt on it, which actually is opposite of truth, mini 14 jams super quick with any mud or dirt on it while AR does best in mud tests. I currently own a Colt AR15 and Russian AK74.
@@WTFisTingispingis I mean, it is a good rifle. Just not the best.
@@DS-mt9yb what war are you talking about?
Let's be honest here, who HASN'T dropped their rifle in the mud accidentally when their mom called them to come get lunchables? I assume it's happened to everyone at some point.
LOL- L.A.R.P. Come on kids its half time!!! Come get your orange slices and gatorade!!!
Facts.
Even a month later; this comment is grossly underrated.
Launchables, aka rifle grenades.
Yeah i remember at my 6th birthday party, mom called us in for dinner and out of pure excitement for caviar and rits crackers, I stuffed my m1 abrahms directly in the neighborhood pete bog. Ill never forget the mud horror. Still fired though after being fully submerged for 3 hours 🤷♀️
I knew the M14 was gonna fail my friends dad that was is Vietnam said his M14 always malfunctioned whenever it endured any of the elements 😅but then he switched to the M16 he said it was no different
The conclusion… The AR is a tight tolerance closed system so it can bind up in freezing weather but repels foreign components better. The AK is the opposite.
makes sense, the ak were made in a country where -45 degrees celcius is not uncommon in winter
👍🏻
the DI guns did eavan better blowing the dirt away with the excess mud on the bolt
ARs don't bind up in freezing weather. They bind up if you pour water into the action in freezing temperatures and then let it freeze for hours and then immediately try to shoot it. So in no realistic situation.
Yep.
27:20 Galil bolt carrier cam track (and also AK by extension) has a long underlug. Meaning, there's a lot of travel fore and aft even after the bolt carrier has locked the bolt into battery. So you can see that even if the BCG isn't fully home, the bolt is actually home because long underlug, and therefore hammer can strike the bolt tail area with the head of firing pin sticking out, hence rifle fires safely. Technically, the hammer FORCES the BCG to travel the rest of the way forward and then hits the firing pin, you get the idea. It's just dead space that's there mainly for the unlocking phase - delays the onset of extraction which makes extraction easier.
TL DR that's not a bug, that's a feature.
There was a comment a saw about asking to see the brass of it but, it would be great to see could that be a life ending failure to happen or could you just see a failure of fire? Essentially would that function survive a mag dump? Be interesting to see in slow motion safely aswell
AKfanboy COPE
Honestly a lot of this just felt like sexy mud wrestling
All I can think of with that mud on his face is "Buff Bronco Gets Down and Dirty with Beauties from Around the World"
Awesome
Hilarious but informative: seeing the mud streak across your face barely change in between shooting so many different weapons is a reminder that cheek weld placement is pretty important.
The AK pattern rifle failures make sense, in range TV showed that mud likes to get into the locking lugs for the bolt. As far as the Jim fuller AK I suspect the reason why that one was the worse is because it's not as gassed up as the AKM
To me the next question would be "So those guns are completely gunked up, which one is the fastest back in business ?" Maybe the AK could win in that department.
akm is outdated in modern combat.
InRange tests are unrealistic at best because their 'mud' is actually desert sand mixed with water, which is completely idiotic to use as 'mud' since circumstances of encountering such 'mud' are very limited to say the least, the type of 'mud' one might to deal with will most likely be soil or clay based, which would make it easier/harder to get into crevices and less/more likely to cause a malfunction of the gun.
@TetisPinkman 91 lol, no it's not
That’s a Good point; that the Fuller AK’s tuned gas system would be a disadvantage in those conditions
15:28 i love that this is a prime example to always check to see if your chamber is empty, the fact that there were 2 shells in there is crazy.
I love the heavy breathing it really ads to the video I was on the edge of my seat
that dust cover coming in for the win!
Should have been called a mud cover
Tbh it's mostly the DI system spewing gas(and the casing along with it) out that helped the most
You can see the piston AR style rifles jammed or had some form of failure to extract, as does the AK
Be interesting to find out how well the optics lenses survived after cleaning, don't think I've seen a video on that anywhere.
@@Mushroom1882 u don't say...
I’m impressed. Always been told that the AK platform could be “Thrown in the mud and work fine”. Same goes for AR’s “always jam if you get a spec of dust in them”. However, I’m glad these guys did it for me and have exposed the lies I’ve always been told were true
Mine has shot fine while filthy. Honestly, though…who the hell let’s their rifle get THAT muddy? A rock in the action will stop a .50, so I’m not surprised it stopped an ak.
I live in the south, we have some swampy shit. I’m not too worried about ignoring in mud like that, lol.
i would have to also think that has to do with the type of ak since they used the AKM and 105. and that whole it can be thrown in anything and still work comes from the 47 variant but that's just a guess.
Im starting to think those tropes come from boomers who never shot either in combat and just repeated the same bs for years. Kind of like the crock of shit that the Germans would “hear” the Garand ping and know they were out of ammo a hundred yards away in the middle of a warzone.
The closed design does make sense for the AR to do well. I've been told it's tolerances are pretty meticulously crafted. Would also explain why ice would fuck it up because it slightly warps the components.
@@awaycomet5673 Only difference between an AKM and an AK-47 as far as I am aware is the type of metal used for the receiver.. not sure if it would have much effect in this test
Tight tolerances in the AR plus, I think, the direct gas impingement helping blow some of the mud away possibly.
I love the crisp quality of this video
I like how GarandThumb’s channel has gone from über serious, to serious with a bit more fun. It’s a nice change because, yes, guns are serious and should always be taken as such, but they still can be a very good time if handled properly.
What are you talking about? GT started on /k/, shilling himself through the /gq/ threads. He's always been a shitposter.
He started off with M1 Garand run n guns and skinwalker tutorials. He’s always had some fun
@Cova Amdi yo what?
I never thought today I would be this hyped about seeing mud in rifles. Polenar Tactical posted their mud test an hour ago.
Oh now, my handguard and buttstock and even my receivers got muddy! Luckily the internals were protected by keeping the ejection port covers closed and still worked 😅 what a test
I also believe part of the reason is with the AR gas impingement system the ports on the bolt carrier force a lot of the mud off of the chamber area before the bolt starts going back clearing the way for the casing
Mud test is one thing, but with attachments? That's commitment
Right? I loved hearing him say "poor delta point" and all that. I know that's gonna be rough to clean
@@blacksky5883 Especially if/when that mud dries, but for the sake of science, had to happen
Need to do this with conceal carry pistols, you’d see way more different fanboy reactions when a certain brand of pistol doesn’t work
Will XD carrying 'sheepdogs' be vindicated? lol
Check out military arms channel's gauntlet test
You don't need a conceal carry pistol, just stuff an RPG into your pocket.
Basic knowledge smh.
Testing dickcheese resistance
I saw a glock get baked into a cake and still shot. Call me a fanboy but...
Videos like this are what really influence my purchases. Reliability, durability, looks, etc. I'm finally getting my hands on a SCAR-16, saw a video of a Ukrainian soldier talking about how much he likes the weapon while fighting, kinda sold me on it
I think what we just witnessed with the AR’s vs the MCX is that the blowback from the direct impingement systems actually blew the caked mud off the ejection port where the piston driven MCX didn’t have that blast to clear the mud out. Fascinating.
Dude i'm so sorry you had to do that to your rifles. Honestly through I've been wondering this for years, and you are a champion among all of us for taking the sacrifice. Have fun cleaning those guns man!
AR-15 has positive internal pressure because it "shits where it eats". This is why it was able to avoid stovepipe malfunction, because the mud was at least loosened up if not blown away thanks to the gas system.
By design to push out foreign matter.
M16A1 vets having a hardon rn.
@@azone123465 doubt that was the reason but sure
@@RockSolitude It was. Do some research.
The FAL carrier and receiver is a close fit. There are "sand cut" carriers and receivers that allow pockets in the action for the accumulation of debris to collect. There is also a rare ejection port dust cover body cover that was made. The use of these would help the FAL. In a pinch you can also quickly remove the steel body cover if need be.
I’m an AK guy all day. But I’m happy to see the AR guys win on this one. I felt bad after that Freeze test. The AR platform is an incredible feat of engineering that I marvel.
I love both
I’d be curious how a stock over gassed AK would do. These AKs appear properly gassed.
@@Eric__B Since the AK problems were related with going into battery due to mud in front of the bolt I don't think overgassing it will make any difference, they blew open just fine already. Closing is done by the springs.
@@DAKOTA56777 When did it get in between the bolt face and the barrel? It got in after a round was fired and the bolt opened. A bit more gas and the spent shell might have knocked more of the mud outward on its way out. Also a bit more gas means harder recoil impulse and more mud removal. Not saying for sure an overgassed AK would survive but I'd be curious to see how it compared
@@Eric__B Possibly, but I personally doubt it would make much of a difference, it's still only 7.62x39, even overgassed it's not going to put out a lot of recoil to shake itself of mud, but I'll grant you that it may have a slim chance of making a difference.
Great Video!!! People often criticize the direct gas impingement system of the AR15 because it blows powder residue into the action, but I have always argued that the DI system also blows junk out of the action. This video clearly supports that same conclusion. Powder residue is so fine that in all but the most neglected conditions poses little threat to functionality.
Oh, and piston driven guns no not create a positive pressure environment inside the action and therefore do not naturally evacuate debris. This leaves piston driven guns more prone the failure in the mud.
@@PracticalTacticalAccuracy It's even worse, a tightly designed externally gassed weapon is going to generate *negative* pressure as the bolt is driven back initially, something has to displace the volume that's moving out of the front of the action. It will literally suck mud into the action... potentially not much, but some.
I always thought the Stoner pattern's direct impingement gas system was a bad idea, but that and the pull rod charger seem to be the secret to its mud resistance. The gas system simply blows crud out while it's cycling, and the charging system doesn't provide an entry path.
Thank you for putting your guns through this for us viewers. I’m sure it was a pain afterwards. Subscribed.
It is actually hilarious how badly and how quickly the M14 failed
It's seriously not a good option as a battle rifle. No wonder it didn't last long.
After watching Brandon's reaction to the SCAR in freezing conditions, I cant wait to see how he reacts to the AK platforms in mud!!
I’m betting his reaction is that he won’t react at all lol. He’s probably thinking ‘let’s not talk about this video. Ever…”
I still like AK’s tho…
But I also like AR’s, so that’s why I have both. Every tool has its purpose. Why limit yourself with just one platform?
I, for one, am looking forward to Lord AK's reactions.
This video breaks my heart over and over again... such beautiful weapons
Yes but how the hell do you know what’s actually going to perform in bad conditions?
A weapon is a tool not a trophy, you need to know what it's capable of taking otherwise it could get you killed...
So basically, don't let an elephant take a shit on your weapon and you'll be fine.
I love these videos. Scar-h is one of my favorite guns. Clean up on those guns sure is going to be fun 🤣
Honestly, at this point, just fill your tub with clean water and dunk em
Just take them to the car wash and blast away.
I want to see Kel Tec Sub 2000 Thumbs up if you agree
@Naura Anisaha are you capable of firing 7.62x51 out of a 14 inch barrel, at targets 660 yards away? I didn't think so, go away
@@voler_1925 they are a valid terget tho
As a huge M1/M14/M1A fan it was heartbreaking but not surprising to see the weapon fail. The design is outdated. Better options are available for the extreme conditions. Thank you for these tests. They are entertaining.
Even InRangeTV did a mud test on the M14 and got the same result. As much as I love the design, the action is way too open to keep mud away from the moving parts, and there are too many tiny nooks and crannies for even the smallest of pebbles to fall in to and jam the action.
I'd love to see this with PSA variants of these weapons
Not even the 4K quality, down to the lighting this video looks f**ckin amazing! Keep it up!
Note: he looks like a warzone operator
Turns out maybe overgassed and/or carbine length AR gas systems have a place. And that place is ejecting casings through a slab of mud.
carbine length gas system in a 14.5 seems like a pretty practical choice, which is literally an M4. Wow imagine that engineers know what they're doing lol
Wow...breaking news. Reliable gun is reliable.
Seeing ice and mud test with pistols would be very cool! I’d like to see how the most popular sidearms perform!
Everyone please upvote the comment above.
You got your wish on the ice part it seems.
@@rebelkommando6166 Glock for the loss 😂😂
This definitely shows the imperfections of the design of the AK, adn I believe that the AK system can really learn from the M4 here.
There are already manufactures out there that make very enclosed AKs, and one of its problems is that M4s actually have a little flute on the bit that showsout of the ejection port. This is a place that gives mud clearance to be in when it has them. Just unfortunate that the guns would cease up in other places, even though it's resistant to mud... it isn't so much so whe it comes to dust.
I would love to see one of the AK manufactures basically completely rework the AK, and make it much more resistant to other environmental factors. the AK platform, if it wasn't that open, with its high imperfection tolerance, would be litearlly a "work at anywhere, anytime" kind of weapon, for sure.
The galil ace. Its in the video
What he needs is Ian and Karl to do one of their Inrange mud tests with him.
Once again, a properly maintained AR style weapon is proven to be one of the most reliable weapons in the world.
It's amazing how many people I've told this and they argue against it, many of them military vets. Then they tell me the horror stories of the shitty rifles an armorer threw together and I ask them: what failed you, a bad design or bad workmanship? Eugene Stoner was a genius, the John Browning of his era.
I'm a vet and honestly the ar is a lil bitch when it comes to getting dirty. All it takes is one water logged chest deep trench and that's it for half the weapons in a platoon and that always seemed like a huge flaw to me
@@moisesaguirre515 so what you’re saying is that you never learned how to hold a rifle over your head when walking through chest deep water, something all soldiers have been taught to do SINCE THE INVENTION OF FIREARMS?
@@bubbathedm that's a software solution to a hardware problem. Luckily I've only encountered such conditions in training (which is how I know for a fact that a wet enough trench has the power to disarm half a platoon) but if Americans found themselves fighting in the mud for weeks on end I'm pretty sure I know how it's going to go unless we have massive air superiority. AK is more vulnerable to getting material inside of the weapon but you can clear basically any fouling by working the action. A mucked up m16 will not even let you pull back the charging handle
@@moisesaguirre515 the m16 has a dust cover which also works for mud, learn to use it. It even opens by itself when you go to shoot.
Yeah I saw Ian’s test and was really impressed with it. This just confirms his findings. So, if you’re headed into a jungle or muddy environment; bring your AR15. Headed into the frozen tundra; AK47
If you are going to both; AUG lol
Or take either into either, and just try not to slam it into the mud TOTALLY/soak it in water and leave it out to freeze overnight lol
I felt this test was more helpful than the ice test. If you fall in the mud you're gonna shake off your rifle, and they did, but they practically submerged the rifles in water in the ice test and made no effort to shake them out before freezing.
@@paintballplayer700 "hold on lemme shake out the ice"
It really does make sense though, the M16/AR platform of weapons was originally made for use in Vietnam, which is muddy and humid. The US also does vary, but unless you live in Alaska, it doesn’t get as cold as russia in the US. The AK was made in Russia, which is cold and snowy nearly all year long.