Tech Talk: Real Men Don‘t Wear Helmets!!! My real concerns about harnesses and head protection.
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- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2024
- It’s almost daily that you guys get on me for not wearing a helmet and harnesses on the track During TF. Join me as I dive deeper into the concerns and complications of wearing helmets and harnesses during TF on the Nürburgring!
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Source: I have worked for a global car OEM in the restraints safety department.
**TL;DR**
My recommendation if a car is to be used at high speed frequently, say on a race track, STRONGLY consider installing a roll cage, bucket seats, a well-mounted race harness, and use a proper sized helmet AND HANS device. If you can't use all of the above, I would hesitate to recommend any incomplete combination of them. Rather, simply using the stock three point harness is likely to be safer. When you're driving on the road, only use the stock safety system of your car.
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how the stock 3-point harness in vehicles function. They do not arrest your body and have it 'rotate'. The goal of any road restraint system is to extend the duration of a crash as long as possible, therefore reducing the acceleration experienced by the body.
Modern three point harnesses work in the following manner for a frontal collision:
1. A pyrotechnic retractor will tension the seat belt (webbing) in a crash, snugging it up against the occupant's body before the crash impulse reaches the cabin
2. The occupant's body begins loading the webbing until the load limit is reached
3. At the load limit, the spindle that the webbing is wrapped around will begin deforming under the force of the occupant pulling on the belt, allowing the webbing to play out and the occupant to move forward, while still applying a constant force to the occupant's chest without arresting them fully (this reduces the acceleration, or G's experienced)
4. The occupant will impact the deployed airbags, which will decelerate them further as gas is slowly expelled from the inflated air bags.
The above is designed to minimize chances of thoracic, head, and spinal injuries based on the most common types of accidents seen on the road (
Thank you!
@Jonathan Hiener Thank you very much for the explanation and of course to @Robert Mitchell for the concern explained in the video. For next track days, I'll must have this in mind.
Thanks for the knowledge! Really interesting to read from someone with such a good understanding of crash safety.
What a great informed response. Thank you. Did the OEM you work ever release any road cars with standard fit harnesses and no seat belts? There must be lots of "hardcore" cars sold in this way - is the manufacturer exposing itself to legal risk?
Thank you!
I’ve just made a choice. I won’t use a harness and helmet again without the HANS. Great video Rob!
AutoFabb make sure to do some more research too Ausland back up the decision. There are lots of points to consider. Like being in a caged car! Then I do hamlet and Hans as a strike to the cage is more likely to be deadly
Robert Mitchell Yes. Fullcaged car is one thing, mine does not have that. But you only have one neck in this life. Can’t buy a new one.
Yes but the problem is that not many cars have full harnesses. Also it shows how dangerous road cars with harnesses can be as the head may not even reach the airbag.
That is not a sound choice my friend. Robert has a very good point, but there is so much more to it than just a neck extension. If you can wear your HANS, do so, but to run without a helmet when asked to wear a harness, is worse. Cages, debris, chemicals, fires, and all the rest of it. Yes an unlucky shunt can and will kill you, it happened at Le Mans with Allan Simmonsen a few years ago, but you need to be VERY unlucky even without a HANS for that to happen.
@@RobertMitchell Is it legal to drive without helmet at the Nurburgring?
I can see this channel going big in the future from all of that technical information and the time spent to put out this content
Thank you so much for that effort and I hope you the best
mohamed Bassiouni Thank you for the support!
Fantastic Video. And the discussion in the comment section is fantastic. I havent done track days in a while but plan to go back hopefully next year. Will be reading and re-reading these comments!
You’re correct. The comment section is tops here!!!
Robert, Interesting discussion and some salient points.
Perhaps there’s a sixth option. If you intend to drive at your own or your cars limit and have potential to hit the barrier at 90 degrees (head on) stopping from high speed to zero in zero inches, a correctly adjusted harness with a bmx / mountain bike / skiing style helmet and disconnected front airbags systems?
In terms of your suggestions:-
1. Must say I’ve not noticed EuroNcap impacts with the dummies rotating within the seat belt and believe dummies are marked with liquid marker paint to ensure that correct impact with airbags and cushion are made and indeed control the facial interaction via the airbag deflation vent holes which are at the edges so the face or indeed helmet is captured in the centre
2. Harnesses have been used in motorsport for decades since the saloon car era, the point with harnesses is that you shouldn’t be able to reach the cars interior so lightweight helmets should be the priority over helmets used in open seat racers or in motorcycling where external ground contact can be made.
3. Cars are not engineered to crash at high speeds, euroNcap is a maximum of 40mph which is why roadside crash barriers deflect and redirect cars and not stop them dead.
Airbags are commonly acronymed as SRS (Secondary Restraint Systems) and were introduced in the USA for drivers or passengers not wearing seatbelts so not needed when a harness is worn and as far as I am aware, never used in rallying or motorsport. It is probably a condition for the safety of the track marshals that they aren’t fitted in race cars in case they go off whilst a driver is being rescued?
Phil.
Brilliant explanation
This is the type of videos we need on YT! Can you make video where you would explain how Nurbrugring affects your capabilities on public roads.
great video
Very good advice that most drivers don't know! If using 3 point harness wear a half size helmet for lightness, otherwise if you use the 6 point go with full helmet and Hans device.
Very informative video and shows clearly logically what is being discussed here. Thanks alot going to get into racing on track more serious and this was good info
you are absolutely right with everything you say, if you cant wear a hans, then helmet and harness are a no go. airbag is your best friend when you cant have those.
I agree with your logic for a purely frontal impact, however this is only one of many types of scenarios and probably the least likely unless you hit a stationary object. In the majority of side and glancing impacts it would make sense to me not to have too much lateral movement and this is where the helmet and harness begin to make a stronger case than without. So overall it is a question of which is the more like scenario? Interesting discussion 👍
I don’t wanna hundred percent agree as a side impact is also lightened from a HANS device. If you hit a wall at the side of your car your head is going to go either direction with Helmet as well. Again I’m not trying to spark a debate but give people things to think about however my points are not only for a head on impact
Note to self from what I took from the video and some very useful comments:
Medium safety: 3-point belt with / without helmet depending on how well the car protects you with airbags and such
Maximum safety: 4/6-point harness + helmet + HANS device + rollcage
Serious protection against side impacts in any case: side airbags or bucket seat with wings around helmet (as in Nascar)
In terms of the effects: allow movement of upper body AND head - OR - immobilize upper body AND head AND roof (with rollcage).
In general: ride safe or ride home. There are no shortcuts or off-days to your safety.
When I started racing (autocross, then track days, and eventually time attack) I did it with just a helmet and the OEM 3-point. I wanted harnesses but quickly learned it's a very complex, and expensive, thing to do right. Aside from neck injuries there's the risk of a rollover causing the roof to cave in, crushing your neck and spine if you're harnessed but dont have a cage.
I went the way of getting race seats first, Sparco containment seats with the head restraints. I raced for two years in those with a helmet and the 3-point belts. Even with OEM belts it makes a world of difference. I went from being so tired after a track day I'd pass out by 7PM to being wide awake at 10pm, just from not having to brace myself through the corners all day. I have a HANS but havent had a cage built yet, so no harnesses either. I'm taking a break from cars for a while to focus on other stuff but when I get back to it the first priority is a custom cage, then Schroth 6-points.
This is the order I tell people to do it when they mention harnesses: helmet with HANS anchors, race seat, minimum 4-point roll bar (no harness bars), HANS, 6-point harnesses (4-point ASM if you absolutely must but I'd always go 6 personally. Never 5, unless you dont care about your fun bits). And never use harnesses without a HANS even on the street, a small impact can ruin your life or kill you. Definitely not as dangerous as helmet with no HANS, but imo not worth the risk. Also never ride in a caged car without a helmet, again just not worth the risk imo regardless of padding, speed, etc.
N2 and N5 where applicable thats what i would choose! i used to drive with harness and helmet on track days in my RS4 but early on i was recommended not to tie the harness very hard. and that's the point you made as well about body rotation. in my race clio its Hans or nothing.
Very interesting!
How about cars without (steering wheel) airbags?
Scenario 2 is the best solution
Bravo... this is why i use the scenario 2 on my gt3
Very well put, one other thing to bare in mind is that a car without a full roll cage, full harnesses are not recommended as in the case of a roll and roof collapse you head has no ware to go, add the extra height of the helmet and the problem is exaggerated. Similar problem as if you put a roll cage in a car and don't have a full harness or helmet you end up getting injured by smashing into the cage. If i missed those comments..sorry.
100% correct!
I've bee nthinking about this a lot recently. The HANS device you demonstrate only stops your head during a forward impact, but not in a side impact. In racecars, usually the seat has side bolstering for your head. I'm currently using a hybrid solution fro mSIMPSON that is similar to HANS but also stops the helmet from moving side to side. The trade-off is that it restricts the rotation of my head more than a regular HANS, so it reduces my ability to look around during e.g. a more busy trackday.
Yes on track day the Simpson is a really good concept!!!
very, very informative, thank you
Robert, your channel is a hidden trove of useful information for motorsports enthusiasts and performance driving. Keep up the great content!
Well thank you very much!!
Very interesting video, thanks.
Makes a lot of sense. I know of two rally competitors who are no longer with us, one (someone I knew from my home town) who failed to secure his helmet straps at the stage start, in the crash his helmet came off and his head impacted the roll cage. On the other occasion a driver lost his life when in a multiple roll his neck was broken by the weight of his helmet. Both these 'events' are from the mid and late 1980s in the days before air bags and in cars that were built to clubman (road car) regulations (group N). I attended another accident on a rally, where the co driver wasn't breathing, she had swallowed her tongue. Fortunately she was wearing an open face helmet, so the rescue crew could 'see' the problem and were able to clear her airway immediately. I don't know if that would have happened with a full face helmet. For pro racing drivers whose muscles are trained to wear a heavy helmet the dangers are less. As a clubman who wore a helmet once a month at the most, I can tell you my neck muscles suffered for days afterward an event. Helmets cannot be an answer on their own.
(should have read more....981porsche said it much better)
I was taught at the PCA HPDE school by two ex pro drivers (with some fast cars at VIR) that safety is a system.
1. OEM as sold factory street is better than just about anything save full race system
2. you are right, no hans with a helmet and harness is a great way to get paralyzed/killed....my opinion
3. Another reason NOT to put a removable steering wheel or fixed back non-oem seat in a street car ....it is a system.
If I was at your shop I'd do 3pt as is...and drive within my limits ...great videos, keep these and your shop going and thank you.
All or none...it really is a binary thing and your logic is spot on sir.
Jeff
Good input Jeff. Thank you for that!!
@@RobertMitchell I cannot believe I forgot to mention this....on my old track car (very modified 996TT with a built engine, suspencion, big wing, etc......had SCHROTH harnesses that were designed to give way in an impact for the car's native safety system (airbags) and was also HANS compatible....that to me was the best option....hold you "in" so you don't get thrown around in a car violently on track......as I am sure you guys see in the MR... but also safe for one's neck....they way i did it was on the street, no helmet/no hans...they were US DOT legal. On track, helmet and device....done.
Anyway, here is a link. I have nothing to do with these guys/this product but was a happy customer. You might eant to look at these.....
www.schrothracing.com/item/schroth-quickfit-pro/tuning-Harnesses you can add a 5 or 6 point antisub strap(s) too.....
After seeing this, my opinions became following: It totally makes sense to pick either 1 or 2 depending on the chosen car to TF, and then driving safe (the most important safety measure). TF is not the place to reach for limits or take risks, and those scenarios 1 and 2 are likely to save you if there appears a surprising event that cannot be avoided. Then there is scenario 5 which is the best, and to be used when ever allowed and there is a chance to drive closer to the limit. I totally see why having harnesses and no Hans (scenarios 3 and 4) can be very bad - it is nice to have that option though for those with a tracktool that does not have airbags and other modern road car safety things.
Great video! I think in an old street-prepped car without a front air bag and side curtain airbags I would wear a helmet (with 3 point harness) but anything with airbags I wouldn't.
This is a very interesting video. I would love to see a part 2 who talk about the rollcage.
For example, I want to talk about those case :
1) Backets seats with harness and without rollcage : What if the top of the car break and you cannot slide your body. You will be crushed because your body cannot move on the side comparing to a standard seat with seatbelt.
2) Backets seats with harness and with rollcage but no helmet : The top of the car cannot break because of the rollcage but you can crash your head in the rollcage, right ?
I was hoping to mod my Abarth 595 with Sabelts backets and harnesses but it feel like a total bad idea considering what your first video demonstrate and also those twos questions that I am asking.
This is probably one of the most important videos out there for anybody who likes cars. I had thought about this a lot in the past and you have now confirmed my ideas. Misha brought me here, you made me stay. Keep going man, that is quality content. I hope I can go from Spain to the Nurburgring in the not too distant future, rent on of your cheaper cars, go for a lap with 3 point harness and helmet and ask for a picture.
thank you for the kind words! I hope to keep up with some good conversation points.
Most important point, airbag vs no airbag in the car... Race cars do not have airbags for a reason as that is why the HANS is a must have. Road cars have come very far with regards to crash safety, so you should be fine during a roll over on the ring in your road car. The flip of the Scirocco on the ring is a good example of how sturdy road cars are in the event of a roll over.
To be honest, I even consider to wear HANS in public road (roll cage, 6-point harness) for cases where I move from track e.g. to the gas station or from garage to the mechanic, just to avoid risk of injury after getting hit by another car, even accidentally and I don't care if I'd look weird if it's about health
Very interesting point of view mate!
I don't have airbags in my car and I use 4-point belts, I always tighten the belt as much as I can in my lap and relax a little on my shoulders to prevent submarining and to get a little body movement not to stress neck so much.
That’s the way I do it, although I’m thinking about upgrading to Schroth 4-Point with ASM
Best purpose for a helmet in a racecar is to protect your head from roll bars, which are the best way to protect yourself from intrusion of things outside of the car and prevent the car from crushing you inside of it.
Obviously as impact speeds increase, the ability of an OEM style 3 point harness to gently decelerate you safely diminishes, and it quickly becomes more important to simply control where your body is able to go to prevent worse injuries.
At every step, you're increasing survivability of harder impacts, but also increasing potential for non life threatening injury.
I think it just depends on how fast you think you'll hit something. But without a roll cage, I would probably run a helmet and a 3 point harness. With a roll cage, I would run 5-6 point with helmet every time.
100%. Helmet is a must w cage and the speed you intend to drive helps determine the rest
excellent review, makes me stop and think, understanding the neck and impact from my FF days in the mid-80s. When I was secured in the car with a six-point harness and Hans devices were not even thought of back then. It had backwards and had whiplash. Now with how you describe everything, and doing track events, will get a hans device and until then not use the six point, because of concerns with the neck. Never thought of it as you have described it....
I started racing before the HANS. I finished with a HANS. God bless Jim Downing (one of the developers of the HANS). Thankfully, I never needed to use it. I never knew about the body twisting during a big road car accident. Thanks for the update to my knowledge base
Absolutely amazing informative content Robert. You are a pleasure to listen to. I really enjoy your videos. Its clear you really love what you do and you have the knowledge which shows your passion for all levels of cars
Much more thought behind it than I ever realised wow
great content, hopefully thats given people the reason what the hans (head and neck system) was invented for, more people were dying in motorsport through the weight of the head being thrown forwards than any other injuries in an accident
I really hope more people use them!! It’s a must
Sorry for the late comment but I just came across this video. One often overlooked component of driver safety is seat mounting. Having a racing seat mounted on a slider with a high speed impact may negate any harness/Hans/helmet setup. I noticed a slight “wobble” when you adjusted your seat with the car standing still, just think of the leveraged forces on impact. A “fixed mounted” seat may be impractical in a Ring Taxi due to different drivers and sizes etc. However, the point being that seat mounting in a high speed race car should ALWAYS be a part of the calculation on driver safety.
Very good points. I would run a helmet with a 3 point or if a 6 point if used a helmet, and HANS should be required. But again, for track days, maybe not for the Nürburgring rules of the “road”.
So in hindsight option 2 is the safest. I like the way harnesses hold you in the seat and stop you moving though, when not in harnesses I find myself using energy to brace myself when braking and cornering. All food for thought though for my next track day
Yes agree Robert No2 does seem best option if you cannot use a HANS in TF , a 6point, helmet and no HANS sounds a really bad idea if things go wrong !
I do think scenario 2 is the best, hope one day to leave my country to pay you guys a visit, I’d love to drive the track for real, I’ve done a couple of kilometers on GT Sport !!!
We’d love to have you out. Fingers crossed it can happen sooner than later for you!!!
I agree with all you've covered. Seems helmet and 3 pt harness is ideal for what you do.
After many years of racing and many years of racing, I can without the shadow of a doubt say that the helmet is always my choice - no matter if I have 3, 4, 5 or 6 points. I have been in many stuffs and crashes in everything from exotics to open wheel single seaters, and a helmet is why I'm all alive. Yes, you are somewhat correct about the neck extension, but that takes a lot more force than something coming through the window, a roof being pushed in, and what else have you. Yes, I prefer my HANS, and I wear it when I can, but if a track requires harnesses but no HANS, I'm choosing that with confidence. My head has hit so many things that would have killed me had I not worn a helmet. On normal trackdays etc. I feel perfectly fine in a three point harness, and most often run that, but if the track asks me to use a harness if it's there, I don't discard the helmet. I have seen people get their head impaled by large shards of class, wood, and other debris because they did not wear a helmet. I fully understand your concern about the extension, but don't forget that for many years we raced without a HANS, and helmets still saved lives. You will need an insanely massive shunt for a helmet to be a problem, especially in modern cars with crumple zones. Wear a helmet because it will more often than not, save you.
A hit to the head is a sure issue as you say and that’s why I mention that it’s a balance that you need to think about. How many crashes you been in?!?
Valid points. In a car with a rollcage wearing a helmet is obligatory. You don't want to crack your head on a big metal tube. The weight difference between various helmets can be significant.
Use a neck brace like in karting or motocross. This will prevent your neck to move too far forward while allowing you to turn your head to the sides.
Camera for blindspot with screen in the inside, next to side mirrors. In that triangle spot. So like that u should be able to go with hans, since blind spots would be covered.
Would be great hehe
Or put side mirrors up front on the fenders.
Nice topic, it actually made me worried... I track my car with harness bar, 4 point harnesses (FIA approved without AST) and helmet without HANS configuration, so it seems like I ticked off all the no no boxes:/ Thing I do not understand is why are track dedicated cars like Megane R26R or XBOW sold from factory with 4 point harness? Mind that Renault was first ever manufacturer to achieve 5 star Euro NCAP result (not with R26R though) so they know what they are doing... Another hazard to consider is hooking up 4 or 6 point harnesses with reclining half-bucket seats for which some manufacturers suggest that it is ok. Yes, I ticked that box as well...
Keep up with the good work Robert, all the best!
I use a Simpson Hybrid for all trackdays. Benefit over HANS is that Simpson also caters for situations with side roll and no race seats. So scenario 2 for TF, scenario 5 for trackdays. Though I admit I applied scenario 4 at TF, just feel much better with 6-point on. But reality is, I avoid TF and prefer trackdays, better safety, clear rules and like-minded people on the track.
It is also relatively safe if you need to daily drive with a harness for whatever reason. Such as a street/track car. If you leave the shoulder harnesses with a bit of slack, while loosening the inside shoulder strap even more than the outside one to allow rotation, and retain the factory airbags. This will allow your body to meet the airbag and rotate while still holding your back. Also, you cannot have a full roll cage.
Then when you get to the track you tighten up your harness, grab your helmet and HANS device, suit up and go.
I have had several friends who used this method since their track cars were also their daily drivers. A couple of them have gotten into major accidents on the street while using the loose shoulder belt technique mentioned above and it does work very similarly to a normal 3 point belt. You just have to be cognizant that your shoulder straps have a bit of slack and the inside one is looser to allow rotation this will help protect you from neck injuries if you MUST run a harness on the street.
You had a lot of things right, however: ONLY use a 6 point if you have all of these things listed: A FULL roll cage (the one you have is not sufficient), a HANS device, and a helmet. The problem with using the harness, HANS and helmet (even if it was allowed), is that if the car rolls, and the roof gets a hard impact, you will be stuck in your locked in position and your head/body will be crushed. With a 3 point your head/body is more free to move around.
The safest solution with no roll cage, is a normal 3 point with or without a helmet. The ONLY safe solution with a 6 point is full out, like mentioned above. Do NOT use a harness unless all these conditions are met.
Correct. Scenario 3 or 4 are inherently unsafe. Scenario 5 is not legal during TF.
Pretty sure he knows what he's doing
What would you suggest with most of us running a half cage?
Interesting, I'd have thought the rear cage would have been sufficient to prevent roof crumple around your head in more or less every roll over situation?
This just isn't true. It's a brand new Porsche, not a tin can from the 90s. Doesn't matter how fast you're going, that roof isn't going anywhere.
So many drivers had to die in such relatively minor incidents due to neck/spinal injuries until the Hans device came around, such a great invention. It still baffles me why tracks days insist you wear a helmet with no requirement of such an additional device. Either specify with or without.
Also, do neck lifting and planking exercises so you look like a Marine. Have a strong neck before you crash.
Opportunity for a “street approved Hans device” here, one that allows better rotation of the head during normal circumstances, but “locks” tighter under heavy load (much like a 3 point seatbelt). In reality R&D along with road approval would make it unfeasible, but I’m sure it could be done.
Glad I saw this. There was me thinking no skip the 6 point harness just use a shcroth 4 point road belt and helmet, i think this has convinced me though to keep oem belt for road and use 6 point harness with hans and helmet for track! My wallet won't be happy but my body will I guess if all ends in tears.
It all depends on what speeds you're doing, racing or on a track day and whether you have a full cage or just a little half cage like the gt2 has. It's perfectly safe for me to race my 80s touring car with it's full cage, fixed back seat and 4 point race harness without a hans device. I don't doubt for one second that the hans is more safe but some people act like if you crash without a hans device you will 100% of the time break your neck. I've seen big accidents where the driver wasn't using a hans device and was fine. If you can afford a hans device, definitely use it but unfortunately they are quite expensive and out of reach for an amateur racer like myself. My car barely touches 200km/h and my cage, seat, harness, gear, helmet is all FIA rated so I'm confident that I'll be safe in a crash.
As you say, many various scenarios and we all have to make the decision that suits us best :-)
Okay, so now I have read through the comment section, and I feel that you need to make a video about some of this. It looks like this video has spawned a reaction that goes along the lines of "Oh no! No more helmet for me!". I'm 100% sure that it was not your intention, but it looks to me like that has been the outcome and that concerns me. People look to seasoned track rats like you and me for advice and experience, so it's super important that we deal with safety in a über cautious manner. Again, I agree with the concern about the neck extension and it is always in the back of my mind if I'm not wearing my HANS, but from where I sit, consensus from both veteran racers, safety experts, medical experts and the FIA is that helmet is always better than no helmet. Please don't take this as an attempt to cause trouble or tell you off, but the comments actually scare me.
Each comment I’ve seen of that nature I try to respond to with a please look further Into it concept. I am actually planning a follow up video regarding the in car safety gear and concepts
It should be noted that safety systems is just that, a system designed to work in conjunction with each other. With that I believe either option 1 - the safety system designed by the car manufacturer or option 5 - the safety system recommended by organizations such as SFI/FIA should be used. Everything else is a in-between. However it should be noted that there were a time in motorsports (before 2005 or so) where HANS were not yet invented and we were all using option 4.
Wow, that was an excellent and very thorough rundown on the different scenarios of safety equipment and their affects during an accident. The helmet weight and neck extension are two things I've never really put much thought into before.
Sounds like there needs to be an inflatable HANS similar to a motorcycle airbag suits (Dainese and Alpinestars). Has the mobility to look around but when inflated stabilizes the head/helmet
What about a hybrid HANS device with a three point harness? That would allow your torso to twist, but also provide some neck and spinal support.
The most common injury from an accent where the people are in a 3 point harnes is braking the piece cartelige that holds your chest bones together in the middle. Behind this piece of cartilige is a sack of your heart that holds blood which may rupture. This is why after a decent crash you have to stay in the hospital on a ECG. Dont forget this fatal injury when discussing this topic, i think this should me mentiont too
Very good explanation.
I'm old taxi driver and owner, and we din't need to use seat belts. Our main fear was the passenger, how to escape from them. But, when our fine passengers so us drive without seatbelts, they tought then it's safe to be without seatbelts. No, it's crazy to be in a car witout seatbelts, but for us, its even crazyer to wear belts, because of those some crazy people out there. What to choose, it's not a simple qoustion.
There is sometimes, how to be killed and who is your killer.
I appreciate and respect the honesty and transparency you display in your videos.
I think that the accident that kills you on a track is not a forward impact but a sidewards impact into the barriers. In this situation i think that an 4/6-point harness limits the sidewards movement of your body enotmously. Besides that a helmet prevents the hard/ direct impact of your head on any barrier. The windowbags of course have a limited capacity to keep your head in the car, especially when the structure of the car fails.
Hmm... It really is a tricky situation, the full harness+helmet+HANS is clearly the best option but if it's not allowed then that puts you in a bad situation. As you said, if you have a frontal impact then the helmet will increase the load on your neck dramatically and thus raise the likelihood for injury but if you slap the wall sideways then you need the helmet to stop your head hitting the frame because that could equally cause massive injury.
Maybe a system needs to be designed that is sort of like an inertia reel seatbelt that attaches to the helmet to allow head mobility for checking blind spots but prevents the head flying forwards under high acceleration? It'd certainly be a niche product but if it saves lives or prevents serious injury then it'd find its market.
I've always believed using a helmet with traditional safety devices for trackdays (rather than harnesses) was to also give some protection against broken glass and fire, which I believe is better than not wearing a helmet. I do agree with regards to hardnesses without hans, however there are a number of harness manufacturers who have devices designed for anti-submarining which rip and allow some 'give' in the upper part of the harnesses. I wonder if they would give increased safety on your neck given it allows some movement forward.
How about a very light helmet combined with the 3-point harness? Something like a ski helmet or scooter helmet that would protect your head from subsequent smaller impacts on all sides but frontal. Being open on the face you don't decrease the distance towards the airbag either. But I share your concern for the neck if the car makes a 50G or faster stop. Maybe the head is making a 20G stop then so 10kg extra pull on the neck is likely.
What about #2 but with neck brace support? It's meant to limit head movement. Used often in karting.
in 2008 I had an accident during TF in a Caterham at the Ring. My passenger and I were wearing helmets and three point harnesses but the close proximity of myself and passenger meant we hit our helmets together. I had a better helmet and had a small hole made in it but my passenger with a poorer helmet had a larger hole and he suffered a brain haemorrhage and brain damage. Don't drive a Caterham or similar car with roll bar and close proximity of passenger without helmets, if we had hit our heads together without them we would both be dead.
So glad you’re okay and a good
Example of why not to not get cheap safety gear)
Ouch, I hope your friend recovered and is ok
Every scientific paper I have ever read on this subject, all two of them, says wearing as normal seat belt (3 point) and relying on the vehicle's airbags to prevent head injuries is by far the safest in a situation where you cannot wear a HANS Device.
The TLDR of it is that if you cannot wear a HANS, all a 4+ point harness will do is isolate your neck to the forces being applied to your body from the impact. Like you said- the reason 3 points have been standard for so long is because they are the safest and most secure you can be without being fully kitted to go racing.
Good info. I’ve been looking up articles to help make some decisions myself
One of the best videos I have watched. That just makes things easy to understand and think about 👍
Great to hear! I wondered how it would go on RUclips w such a topic
than kyou so much.
Dont forget, another reason for wearing a full face helmet on track is fire risistence. Please wear suit, helmet and hans every time go to track. i've seen a dude driving a M3 only wearing a helmet crash into barrier and knocked out. the fire broke out 5 sec after, burnt to death.
We are talking here about the Nürburgring during public sessions. Road legal cars following road law.
Agreed with most of it Robert. With harnesses you MUST use a HANS device . If it cannot be done because it’s forbidden by law then it’s better to use the 3 point belt and let the car passive safety systems do its work (airbags). In the latter it’s always better with a helmet , specially if the car has exposed roll cage that you can hit with your head . Big NO NO it’s helmet only with harness for the reasons you explained (3 point and airbags is safer than that)
HANS is pretty clever, but it might not be beneficial in every scenario. In particular it seems not to go well with bottom impact as the body is pushed upwards into fixed head. There was significant rise of broken vertebraes (luckily without spinal cord damage) in our rally championship when HANS became mandatory. Even after some minor and innocent looking crashes. Some of the drivers opted for Simpson hybrid HANS, as they regarded it as less unpleasant during hard landings and other bottom impacts.
I crashed my race car years ago decelerating from about 120 mph to a stop in about 5 feet, I saw the impact coming and held the front of my helmet as I impacted but have since suffered years of neck pain, wish we had hands devices back then!
I have one concern that you didn't mention at all.
In case of an accident that is as severe that your car is totalled in germany you will need to go to the hospital. If you have a HANS device on and you are unconciuos most EMTs won't know how to get your head free of the HANS and you'll lose valuable time to get intubated if your breathing fails as well. Also as others have posted you'd need a racing seat with ears to fully take advantage of the safety equipment in case you'll get flung around or have a side impact... Anyways good video.
Keep in mind that if you get in an accident on the Nürburgring (which is what we are talking about) not just any EMT shows up. They are all Motorsport EMTs and know exactly what a 6pt harness is and how to work a HANS.
I used to work in automobile racing safety. I’ve looked at all of these in the past. For your car’s safety equipment, track rules, and your safety equipment: I’d choose 1. Porsche went through a lot of engineering to make that car safe for road use, trust that engineering. Choice 2 is also good.
As someone who races with a hans I agree with your vid completely, one of the other big vices of wearing a hans is that you can't look to see if the track is clear if you spin and end up at the wrong angle across the track, we have seen over the years many stupid preventable accidents because you literally cannot look to see properly if the coast is clear before moving .
Just to add one further thing.....
I was a passenger in a Golf on a trackday , 3 point and a helmet.....typical Golf brake problems with overheating the back end locked up and sent us spearing into ploughed field stage left, we hit it at maybe 60mph kinda sideways and tyres dug in and flipped us into a massive roll 3 times, destroyed the roof of the car really badly, was a standard car no cage etc, got out with no injuries except being a little battered and bruised, without the helmet I feel I would have had at least some kind of head injury tho.
My general take is that I either want the car stock or I want rollbar+harness+hans; I always wear a helmet on track, it's simply not an option here to not wear one.
in 2013 a good friend of mine convinced me to that to drive on the track "lapping" with a six point harness and a helmet was more dangerous than your #2 ; a two point harness with helmet. He convinced me to use a Hans device with the six point and helmet. One summer day while lapping at out super track in Mont Tremblant Quebec Can. my friend who was using a racing seat with a six point, Hans and helmet lost control of his recent 911 GT3 went off track and hit a barrier on at a + -30 degree angle with the front of the car. The side angle of the shock caused his neck to snap side ways and he broke his neck and died on the way to the hospital. The hans did not protect him; it is good for a frontal straight hit; it does not protect you on a lateral hit that causes your head to snap sideways. The solution seems to be a six point with a helmet plus hans and a racing seat with side bolsters for head protection that they use in NASCAR. I am returning to the track this year after a 7 year absence. i will be driving my stock GT3 Rs with a regular seat belt and a helmet. I believe that with this set up with the standard Porsche air bags in the steering and seats together with the body movement that the regular seat belt allows is the best option after the Nascar type seat, six point hans and helmet.
Try to get a lighter helmet too.
I wonder why the nascar style seat isnt used in other motorsports
@@barryallencoffee One issue may be visibility, nascars don't use side mirrors as well in nascar you rarely have sharp turns where drivers would be turning their heads/looking in front. The nascar seats offer very very little side visibility which works in nascar but not in other series.
Imma call BS that’s definitely something that you could find on the Internet or locals would know. I live close to the Nürburgring and that story is 100% made up
@@akiimo389 Pretty sure that Mont Tremblant in Quebec, Canada is not anywhere near the Nurburgring. Learn to comprehend what you read first maybe? www.comscc.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4387
Maybe when not using the hans device, leave a little more slack on the harness so your head can reach far enough for it to be met by the airbag?
A couple of years ago the BMW Schools in USA stopped using helmets. The reason was that there is no airbag designed to work with a helmet. It is important to remember not only the steering wheel airbag but the side curtain. Apparently there was a lot of discussion with engineers and eventually they determined it was safer to go without helmets.
Very interesting, I’m going to try and read up on this
Hey Robert, great topic! This describes exacly what I am worried about. So I like to drive in TF w/o pushing to the limit, but I have a 6 point harness in my E36 only and always wonder if it's best to wear the helmet or not. I'd love to just be able to use HANS!!! Is there a way to get in contact with Nürburgring and discuss about allowing the HANS system in TF? I mean, I do own an E36 with a cage, bucket seats and a 6 point harness to increase my personal safety and like you just mentioned, it feels like I did a mistake making things even worse for my neck. I just wan't to enjoy TF on the best track in the world and share my passion with all of you people! Whats the matter about not allowing HANS? Is it all about the "Schulterblick"? If so, we germans sometimes suck! :D
this is a topic I intend to discuss more with the Nürburgring. also since you the a cage in the E36 I think its a must to have the helmet on. This is why its such a tricky question. For me when I am in the e92, m4 etc with cage its always w the 6pt and helmet as the head hit to cage is game over.. the neck is not guaranteed.
@@RobertMitchell Thank you for yor answer. What do you think about a neck support collar, like they are used in karting? Can this improve things?
Awesome explanation, Robert!
For me the first and second option (3 point harness) OR the last option (helmet on and Hans)
Hi Robert, thks for the video. My biggest concern are cars equiped with side impact airbags. You add the with of the helmet and the probability of the side airbag hitting it, could really kill a person. Its something I always argue, every track day I participate.
Nice video.... But what is the car in the back? Never seen that before....
obviously the 6 point harness and helmet and hans is the safest, nobody can argue that and for track days thats what id wear. However, on TF where you have to follow rules of the road, I think a helmet and regular shoulder strap seat belt is your safest option, Now if you arent going out on a flying lap then maybe not wear the helmet but if you are going to be driving fast on TF helmet and seat belt.
This is a really good and informative video! Good Job, Robert and keep up the good work! Also, the GT2RS MR looks amazing!
#1 - 3 pt seat belt - helmet or none.
You Forget a side impact, yes your head will hit the B pillar first but that’s not the big injury, and then travels the other direction towards the passenger seat and the only thing to stop that object in motion i.e. you is the seatbelt which then locks. That immediate locking is like a snapping affect and that’s what causes your brain to rattle around inside your skull millions of times a second causing TBI‘s and significant concussions After happening to me, I’ll come up with some solutions around it. But regardless that’s actually your most dangerous situation I would worry less about not being able to travel forward far enough to reach the airbag, and scenario two
I didn’t go into it but I think that injury carries the same issues. Hit the b pillar or let the weight of your head (helmet) carry momentum onboard and hurt your next.
Yup. Harness and HANS or NO harness. Basal skull fractures seem way more dangerous than pillar strikes, to me. How about the hybrid HANS from say Simpson that's designed for three point seats? Protects neck and allows helmet use?
Robert, thanks for having me in the video at 0:56 :-) As always, very good content presented in a very understandable way, even for non native speakers. I took some laps on the ring last summer, together with my daughter. I also had made up my mind in regards to what kind of safety equipment would make sense in what combination. Finally we went for scenario 2: 3 point and helmets, which seems the best compromise in case you can't go with the "full package". The helmets not only to protect our heads from hitting parts of the car in case of a crash but from protecting our heads if they would hit together on a side impact, as example. Anyways, I enjoy your channel; keep up the good work, have a nice Christmas and see you at the Ring 2021!
what would make sense to me is that you have the 3point harness witht the helmet, you can still look around and are also safe from hittting pillars and the roof, and you would have less chance of a neck injury
I visited this very same rent store last year.
Robert, there is one other solution I don't know if it works for Nurburgring. On track in US you have to wear a helmet, I drive my road car with three point belts so you don't need a Hans device. But those NASCAR fans know that Dale Earnhardt(Basilar Skull Fractute) died from not wearing a Hans with a helmet and harness. Without a harness you cannot use a Hans, except one, the Simpson Hybrid. store.windingroad.com/simpson-hybrid-s-head-and-neck-restraint-fia-approved Hope I can link it. I am not in anyway affiliated with either Simpson or WRR. But after hearing Simpson speak with Ross Bentley I decided to go for it. It isn't as restrictive as a standard Hans, but you can wear with three point belts or a harness and I can get in a car in the US with someone that has a full set of harnesses. If you can get away with it, is is not the cheapest Hans, but it is the most versatile. Hope it helps this was a great video, I didn't know you couldn't wear a Hans on TF.
Go for option 2 during TF. Go option 6 on a trackday.
Locally, we can’t even use Harness without a HANS device. They won’t allow us on track.
RLX_5.56 I think that is a very good solution!
Robert Mitchell I’m so glad you did this video. My own ignorance, I have only been track driving for a a few years and
This Hans rule is pretty new. I thought that was just common sense. Thanks Robert!