Just finished a hema event with lectures on medieval cooking and another on the engravings of durer in the hema corpus. The nerd stuff is definitely out there and thriving if you look in the right places.
@@MP-db9sw I'm obviously aware, but it's not good for certain things. Take wrestling or football in US high schools as an example of what sports and martial arts can achieve if supported without having to earn their own funding. I also don't think it's limited to just sports or martial arts, but many industries could possibly see quality benefits.
For sure, and that’s always going to be an issue. But I also think many of us (myself included by the way) aren’t great business people and that doesn’t help. I’ve known… well, most of the places I’ve ever trained at, actually, have never advertised even a little. And this is the tip of the iceberg in terms of questionable business decisions. At any rate, yes, gyms *do* need to make money. But I’m less so talking about “mom and pop” dojos and more so these massive organizations that develop standards, shift rules unilaterally, etc. Imho, martial arts should be more a coalition of people interacting positively as opposed to hyper-commodified and processed by bureaucracies and orgs. Now, of course, that realistically isn’t going away anytime soon. This video was less about reversing the trend and more about making people aware of it. Because I genuinely think people are wasting time arguing over there favorite brands as opposed to getting any good at their system-that’s a sad state of affairs.
100% agree. Even before you got into it my guess was that you were going to start talking about the politics and the commercialization of Martial Arts. I truly hope some day we can get to a point where Martial Arts can be discusses and celebrated in the same way as other hobbies and topics so that it becomes more constructive rather than a pissing contest of who's style is the best or most effective.
@@PyroChan martial arts training used to have strong fantasy and cult genres within it. Actually it still does but much less so and that is _because_ its been and is being put through public scrutiny of which styles work best or are most effective. Its a necessary check to the charlatans and hacks and untouchable "grand masters" that used to be so prevalent.
Keyboard warriors nowadays don't even sound convincing anymore, it's wild! It's like they look at martial arts as JUST style instead of like, understanding why the people who train in arts do what they do and how it works. They just think, "do this if ur a ." and are stuck to how things look rather than how it's supposed to actually work.
I have never understood why people argue about which martial art is "the best". I've practiced many years in many different arts. When I hear someone shitting on another martial art, I immediately judge them as immature and inexperienced. I just can't see how someone who's experienced and emotionally mature would do that.
@@scottmerric2180 some “martial arts” just aren’t real. Simple as. Aikido is one of them. If you’re chosen martial arts style doesn’t make you a better fighter it’s not a real martial art.
I agree post intermediate skill martial artists basically are self directed. I wouldn’t think that a private coach is required for that. I think honest and consistent training partners have more value with helping a martial artist figure out their game against different body types etc.
Those handforms are always cool. I was fortunate to train with Uechi Ryu practitioners. Aikido has a sense of contemporary sensibility in many context.
Nice footage. In the past we trained in one thing. Internet and MMA and weights gyms have have opened things up, but focus can be lacking. I don't consider Capoeira a real martial art, but I now train in that and it's ALWAYS improving. But, the focus is just looking nice. Fundamentally we need dedicated hard training, but we need to know in WHAT. Personally, I think like the internet, lots of things out there but quality is low. We need to understand what we're doing and why, not just copying. And to practice to instinctiveness. Conbatyis unpredictable. We're not all MMA competitors, but we can develop useful techniques for our own purposes. For some reason (even now I'm older) I've been in lots of fights.. maybe cos I've lived in many bad areas. But anyway, we're all personally responsible for what we train. At 52 I do lots of fitness training, pressups on knuckles, calisthenics, isometric conditioning, and certain weights (eg clean and press which I think is good for throws). In some ways, things have not changed... study and question and find out what is useful. Most men get into fights.. review your fights and keep learning.
I feel like the commercialization, politics and historical ignorance are less important factors. The biggest factors pushing martial arts down in the west is that the general fitness of the population has degraded, and martial arts generally being niche hobbies leaves a smaller talent pool, therefore less and worse athletes and coaches. This is not the case everywhere, some places have very strong martial cultures, but it certainly is in the west. The biggest factor pushing martial arts up is the internet, which cannot be understated. Anyone with a friend could in theory start practicing and become greats. In young sports like BJJ this has probably happened many times, where a random country without experienced coaches suddenly gets a world class athlete that was just some athletic guy that started training with his buddy because he saw UFC or something. Even though most practicioners are blind to martial arts history, I believe the ignorance was way worse just 20 years ago because of the lack of internet.
I mean Francis Ingannou was just a super athletic, Nigerian refugee who saw boxing and MMA, literally crossed a desert like three times and eventually became a heavyweight champion so yea, great point!
A few points to unpack here. First off, I’ve been around for creeping up on 30 years in the martial arts space (god I’m getting old) and I honestly haven’t seen much of an uptick in people being truly educated on martial arts. Consider how everyone on the Internet is seemingly an expert on the Internet these days, posting some pretty unhinged stuff-even outside of martial arts, I mean. I don’t think the accessibility has necessarily correlated with understanding, only people *believing* they understand because of some minor exposure. As for crazy athletes coming out of all this, sure, it happens. Joezef Chen famously started his career on bootleg BJJ instructionals. But at the end of the day, he still ended up graduating to training with some of the best people in the world. And, even more importantly, for every celebrated Josef Chen, how many people try to be self taught and end up going nowhere with it? The Internet might shine a light of freak athletes, sure, but for most people, most of the time I don’t think it’s altered much.
@@TenguMartialArts I feel like it's only a few years ago the wikipedia article for BJJ was wildly innacurate with the arts origins so I feel the internet is helping with the flow of information here. A BJJ practicioner in the past would have no resources to educate himself, but now those resources are widely available if you know where to look, even though it could still be much better. Now I'm young enough to not have grown up in a world pre internet but I'm sure most people just accepted their trainers stories as fact and went none the wiser. And for the emerging athletes part I agree that most serious athletes move out of their little pond and find a higher level training room (except, famously, Roger Gracie). But every grassroots community that didn't have some experienced black belt move to that area has benefited greatly from studying video. Sure their greatest athletes move away to train seriously but hey wouldn't have become up and coming talents without the grassroots scene supported by media. I do think the time for these kind of athletes are more and more in the past though, since BJJ is evolving and has become more popular. The competition level was probably pretty low in the past allowing for these kind of people to succeed.
The world is moving fast. Not everyone wants to bow down and worship some old dude that has never been in a real fight. Combat sports offer fast learning, sparring and no BS involved with cult like mindset. Traditional martial arts might work in Japan or the rest of Asia but In Europe most people need an efficient way of defense/fight. I went thru a series of karate, aikido bjj ad came to the conclusion that kickbox , wrestling and boxing are the best in order to apply yourself in a real life situation.
So true, and the #1 culprit for martial art decline is cult mindset, take karate for example too much aesthetics you literally spend the rest of your life training in it at the same time the Dojo makes a living out of your tuition fees they need students like you compare spending that much time with Muay Thai or boxing your probably a pro by now while on karate how long does it takes? till you got your 10-12dan? When you are old already? it's always the journey that matters mind set. Used to be a purple belt back in highschool myself can't do shit with these skill set against street thugs compare that with my training in Muay Thai then boxing it's like instant results, yes we like instant results because beside from martial arts we still have a life outside this art & if cut the clutter and use the effective essentials only it wouldn't be called a traditional martial art anymore, nowadays we call it MMA.
@@ronniechong314 Frankly speaking its just personal preferences. Personally I don't like bowing to pictures of old men that probably never sparred in real life. I'm also not into the whole bow before everyone, a handshake is better and more European, at least for me.
cant speak to TMA, but ive been massively interested in combat sports for many months lately, BJJ/MT/MMA etc.... atleast until i found out about the monthly cost of combat sports gyms in my area (cheapest was $160 a month), a lot of people that would love to get into these are priced out entirely honestly
Everything your saying is true, when ever i enter any school or club I think these are people who just like to be around other people and something to be into that's healthy for them
Great points, as always! I would like to expand and possibly open conversation on something you mentioned, from the part about intermediate level private lesson instruction is necessary... actually, just before it. There is a common practice in schools of having new or junior instructors teach beginners based on them knowing that material the longest, but I've found that when having more seasoned instructors work with beginners it sets them on a better path for learning and becoming more proficient at the art. I know it's kind of a conundrum of needing teaching experience to become a better teacher, but I've seen how impactful it is specifically in the case of beginners.
Agreed. Generally, where I initially trained, assistant teachers were exactly that: assistants to the teacher. This meant the teacher was essentially just delegating you roles, but we was still on the mat and very much keeping an eye on what you were up to (albeit while teaching some other section of the class). While this usually did mean you were teaching beginners, I don’t think the teacher assistant role was ever given to anyone who wasn’t more like… upper intermediate. I know we are splitting hairs on ranking here, but think brown belts. This usually meant they could rotate around a larger range of lower ranks. Keep in mind, though, that this was never for a full class. Maybe 30 minutes if the class is 2-ish hours. The rest of the time was the main teaching teaching all the ranks combined. The assistant teacher was typically the “main” person being demonstrated on and would otherwise help supervise if needed. The implication being that they could watch the main teacher close up and learn how to do that job over time. But yeah, I wouldn’t want an intermediate student guiding a beginner on developmental things. I think that’s a recipe for low quality outcomes.
I especially see that (which style is better) on Facebook and it is annoying, but what really pissed me off is seeing a post, on a taekwondo facebook group, asking what's the difference between taekwondo and karate. 1) why is a taekwondo practitioner asking that question if they've been practicing for more than a month? 2) what karate style are you asking about in particular? 3) shouldn't you know the difference between taekwondo and karate by now if you've been in taekwondo for a long time?
"I cannot think of another internet community that is more consistently incorrect and at its throat as this one is." Really? Where are you finding this civil internet communities at? Yeah, I can't really imagine the era where ground fighting is the most trained area of combat and takedowns are hardly trained at all after high school as the golden age. I also remember going through the phonebook in the 2000s and it seemed like the martial arts offered were several times more varied than today. The thing that stuck out particularly was that there seemed to be a ton of hapkido back then, and none at all right now. I also think that the current day internet is a lot more homogenized than it was in the 2000s. I've noticed that a good chunk of the information online about aikido is basically 20 year old Aikiweb posts. Written material in general has died off on the internet. It's strange to me that this is the post-normie era where everyone is a terminally online internet nerd, when this is easily its worst incarnation.
Wrestling and Judo are still things and theyve been since forever. Boxing also. Kickboxing got popular in the 70s and still has a devoted following with extremely high level striking as the standard. Even in BJJ (which I think youre referencing) todays athletes are incorporating (from other styles) and developing takedowns at a rapid pace. And its common knowledge that MMA success requires stand up competence, arguably more than ground specialization. Yea, there was a minute where ground grappling had the most popular attention but all those other systems didnt just stop existing. As for ground fighting in particular or just grappling in general, its real world effectiveness (along with the difference in skill between competitive and "point fighting" styles compared to people who perform in a context where they really hit each other) was a pretty huge revelation to most of the martial arts world, so yea, it was "the next big thing" for a while but he dust is settling, so to speak, and we're re-calibrating with a better and more honest understanding of martial practice.
@@MP-db9sw Judo and wrestling are around after school, but practicing either as an adult in America is incredibly niche. Also, bjj takedowns are dogshit tier. I've done both bjj and judo btw.
@@lawrence4301 Travis Stevens himself has said that he thinks the jiu-jitsu players that say they have good wrestling are morons, and I'd think New Wave would qualify as a big Texas gym. The learning curve for takedowns is higher than ground game, so in order to have good takedowns the training would have to be unrecognizable as bjj.
Been trying to figure out what to do on my end. Between the fact money unfortunately seems more important than teaching, and its clear the Edo periods dojo culture greatly diminished martial arts to nothing more than secret society lodges instead of training areas, at least with japanese martial arts, ive really only came up with one solution... go back to the Sengoku model for dojos where youre only teaching those in your family, or village at the largest, in more of a militia style of training. No charge, though i may have a way for students to give to help any new students. Beyond that, I'm trying to focus only on the principles.... which means that its more exercise and sparring... its discipline, not awards... and going to any open matt gyms available to test yourself against people who don't do your style. Yeah... i probably will only have my son as a student...
The logic doesn't make sense. Edo Dojos reduce martial art to exclusive groups that only mingle among each other so your choice is to make that exclusive group even smaller reducing it to you and like 3 other people.
Interestingly I've heard the top Judo representatives in America say that Judo needs to become more commercialized. Judo has always been a cheap to train, the teachers doesn't make a living off of it, martial art in many many countries. The classic YMCA Judo dojo. I grew up training in a similar cheap Judo dojo, and I've been a volunteer coach to kids whose parents were so thankful to us because they couldn't afford to send kids to other more expensive activites. But in my home region in scandinavia Judo has been on a sharp decline, from its heyday in 80's and 90's (I'm just guessing at it's peak). Many adults I talk to mention that they trained Judo when they were younger, under my coach even, but participation is becoming lower and lower, the kids less and less athletic (me included), and most of the local clubs in smaller cities which used to have a healthy studen count are dying or already gone. The skills are declining as there are less local competitions because of less parents to help run them. But BJJ clubs are booming, and they are much much more expensive and more targeted towards adults. Similar observations have been made by Travis Stevens who says that Judo in the US needs to change from the YMCA cheap volunteer coach formula to the more expensive own gym locale paid trainer and better marketing formula.
It seems that there are three options. Coaches either need to be: 1. State funded, likely a part of a school programme, like folkstyle wrestling in the US and Judo in Japan. Unlikely to happen in places where it hasn't already. 2. Make their money from owning their own gyms with more expensive memberships, selling instructionals and going to seminars. 3. Likely less competent volunteer coaches. Who do it on their free time, and don't have the time to do much maintenance of marketing of the club.
It’s the same story in America, too. I’m not opposed to Judo making money, but I’m not really convinced commercializing it is the path to making it “cool.”
It may! It was one of the worst performing videos on the channel, though, owing to the total lack of visuals. If I think there is content suited to that format, then I can definitely bring it back. I was just experimenting with it as an outlet for content that was less in line with my normal stuff, although still loosely related. So basically, it just depends. If you have suggestions or requests, feel free to put them here. I'm all ears.
I think that’s probably a fair characterization. For most people now, competition seems to be the primary end goal. Which is fine, but the side effect seems to be that everything else is getting put at the wayside. I sense that some of this comes from the feeling that people want “real” martial arts, but at the same time are completely ignorant that “real” martial arts have long been a cultural product (even in the West) for both fitness, mental growth, and enjoyment of heritage. The heavily polished, corporatized, bureaucratized martial arts we have now is pretty new and *not* really “authentic” at all. That isn’t to say politics and money haven’t always been in the mix, they have been, but the scale we are seeing now is pretty fresh. Unfortunately, it seems like the narrative now is that being a part of that highly curated, corporate expression of martial arts is what is consider the “best” way. It’s a whole other video, but I genuinely don’t think even most of those in the combat sports space are getting paid that much. I’m fine with that all existing, just not as the end-all-be-all.
Thanks for the reply! I feel pretty much the same about the whole thing. I enjoy Karate as exercise and a way to keep in relative shape. I did Savate for a number of years and loved the point fighting aspect. The few friends I have that enjoy martial arts are into it for "da streets" which I find strange living in a first world nation that has very little actual violent crime. @@TenguMartialArts
Is the same thing. Combat sports were breed for self defense and war. The only thing they are not pretending this toxic reverence that my sensei/Sifu master is an enlisted being. Combat sports focus in what is important in martial arts.
Interesting points brought up in the video. Im one who believes that we are in a sort of golden age for martial arts but with a huge caveat: the term "golden age" isnt specific enough on its own to really mean anything. What are the criteria for golden ages? Was there only one golden age for all martial arts? Do individual styles have golden ages which are culturally specific to their time and place and irrespective of the golden ages of other styles? Isnt it plausible to say the golden age was back in the feudal era when arrows, armor and horses were the height of military technology? Does current military strategy, tactics, and equipment count as "martial arts"? I think my take on martial literacy is the inverse of the one youre making in the sense that I consider the opinions of the bottom (approximately) 70% of people who have opinions to be irrelevant because their opinion is poorly informed, at best, and misinformed more often. I dont care what they think because they arent the ones driving the development at the highest levels of performance I am sympathetic to the points about todays education compared to the past but Im not a historian and cannot speak confidently about the comparison. Human beings tend to jump to conclusions based on biases and I doubt this is a new phenomenon. I love Sylvie's channel. To greatly over simplify the topic, the golden age of Muay Thai and its decline have a lot to do with the betting culture around the sport, the influence (or control) that the gamblers have on gyms and the expectations this puts on the gyms and fighters to perform in certain ways. So, money. On the point of when certain styles stop "looking like" themselves as they work to become more functional; this is actually a relevant point, easily illustrated by Aikido and Wing Chun - two commonly disparaged styles. In the rare instances when Aikidoka put themselves to the test in a public way they tend to get beat up and the few times their techniques actually work tend to look like sloppy Judo. So why not just do Judo? Wing Chun has a similar tendency in that when WC practitioners fight for real, they tend to either get beat by practitioners of more functional systems or they drop the stance and punching techniques that are characteristic of WC and end up adopting - and thus looking like - kickboxing styles, so why not just do kickboxing? - in both cases this is because the competitive styles of Judo and kickboxing (Muay Thai, Savate, etc) were originally based on function and outcomes, not on the visual aesthetics and not on some pseudo-scientific "theory" (center-line) or presumed esoteric principle (of Aiki or "harmony"). Judo "theory" or Muay Thai "theory" to the extent there is any, came as a result of developing and refining functionally effective movement patterns, patterns that "work", first, and then analysing them to understand and explain why they work, afterwards. So the process was "find what works, then develop "theory" to explain why it works" compared to WC or Aikido in which the theory was presupposed and the systems were built around them. I love your point about the commodification of martial arts. I love this point because it segues into a bigger discussion about capitalism in general. In a society where profit is a literal requirement for basic survival, and the very word "success" is fundamentally tied to wealth and the acquisition of wealth is the single largest factor in the degree to which one can exercise their personal freedom, _everything_ ends up being commodified. Everything becomes a product. Buying and selling is the most basic staple of modern, capitalistic civilization and everything we do is integrated into that framework. In ages prior to the modern, "mass training" era that you mention, the decision to delve into martial arts training was to a great extent predetermined by the society and family one was born into. In feudal societies with strict hierarchies like Japan or much of Europe, the best martial training (not to mention the equipment associated with it like swords and armor) was primarily (often exclusively) the domain of the nobility. Members of the peasantry were often conscripted (and there are examples of especially talented and tenacious men rising in status as a result of exemplary martial service) but their primary role in society was to be farmers. People didnt "do" martial arts in those days. Training wasnt a hobby or ones "passion" - one was born into the social class whose job it was to wage war. Nowadays we put kids in Karate or Judo to "teach them discipline" or because it "builds character" and adults identify with "being" a "martial artist" or living the "martial arts way of life" but these are just as much contrivance of the modern era as the mass training and formalized curriculums you mentioned. So I think the ratio of the truly serious or more "martially literate" practitioners compared to the more shallow "fantasy fighting" hobbyists is basically inevitable. While a greater percentage of modern practitioners may be content with a superficial understanding of what theyre doing, the percentage of the overall population that has access not just to training but to high quality is much, much higher in todays world. Which is why I consider today to be the "golden age" of martial arts. Modern people have access to McDojos, sure, and many dont know enough to know the difference but if you want to train with Judo world champions, you can. If you want to train at Saenchai's gym, or go train with Sylvie, or at Renzo' or Top Team or Jackson/Wink, theyre open. Literally just going to high school in most places (in USA) gives access to a wrestling program with at least a potential pipeline to college scholarships and even Olympic medals. America's history of racial injustice and capitalist exploitation notwithstanding, the financial barriers to high level training are not embedded in a systemic and inflexible caste system. And even if the financial barrier of traveling and membership fees is too high, there are hundreds of thousands of instructionals out there from world class practitioners of any number of styles and of course this platform right here. O have playlists with technique lessons from gold medalists and world champion athletes from across disciplines. No one is forced to remain in the shallow water of their martial arts understanding in todays world. The deepest waters are accessible to pretty much everyone who is capable of navigating them, today, and thats why its the Golden Age, in my opinion.
@MonkeyStealsPeach I really appreciate it. Someday when I’m visited China with my wife I’ll have to figure out if we can’t train a little or chat or something if you’re up for it. Her side of the family is based up in Heilongjiang, though, so I suspect that would put us geographically far apart ha Wish you the best with your upcoming content, though. I think you’re among a niche few shining a positive light on the Chinese MA and the way you exchange/interact with other arts has done much to inspire my own philosophy around similar things. If you find yourself on a layover in Tokyo, feel free to reach out!
@@TenguMartialArts thanks, I’m actually living in Australia now though. Would be great to meet up too, unfortunately my layover in Tokyo for this trip is only a couple of hours
@MonkeyStealsPeach Ah, gotcha! No worries at all. Just something to keep in mind if you’re ever out this way again in the future! I wish you safe travels and many on-sale snacks during your layover.
I disagree but cool video you have access to platforms like grapplers guide, bjj fanatics, yt etc i think if anything we're in over bearing amount fluff time like you seen gordon ryan making striking instructionals 😂 maybe traditional martial arts and like philosophies and what not is gone but rn we have too much junk
I mean, I think that’s kind of what I’m talking about in many ways, though. A lot of what is online is fluff and doesn’t really help much. It’s just kind of getting produced to be purchased.
Just finished a hema event with lectures on medieval cooking and another on the engravings of durer in the hema corpus. The nerd stuff is definitely out there and thriving if you look in the right places.
Part of the problem is that gyms need to make money to survive.
Capitalism, my man. Its the way of the world.
@@MP-db9sw I'm obviously aware, but it's not good for certain things. Take wrestling or football in US high schools as an example of what sports and martial arts can achieve if supported without having to earn their own funding. I also don't think it's limited to just sports or martial arts, but many industries could possibly see quality benefits.
I think that's the biggest problem
I seen alot gyms and dojo shut down and relocate. I find it sad. Plus the property tax they have to pay.
For sure, and that’s always going to be an issue. But I also think many of us (myself included by the way) aren’t great business people and that doesn’t help. I’ve known… well, most of the places I’ve ever trained at, actually, have never advertised even a little. And this is the tip of the iceberg in terms of questionable business decisions.
At any rate, yes, gyms *do* need to make money. But I’m less so talking about “mom and pop” dojos and more so these massive organizations that develop standards, shift rules unilaterally, etc. Imho, martial arts should be more a coalition of people interacting positively as opposed to hyper-commodified and processed by bureaucracies and orgs.
Now, of course, that realistically isn’t going away anytime soon. This video was less about reversing the trend and more about making people aware of it. Because I genuinely think people are wasting time arguing over there favorite brands as opposed to getting any good at their system-that’s a sad state of affairs.
100% agree. Even before you got into it my guess was that you were going to start talking about the politics and the commercialization of Martial Arts. I truly hope some day we can get to a point where Martial Arts can be discusses and celebrated in the same way as other hobbies and topics so that it becomes more constructive rather than a pissing contest of who's style is the best or most effective.
Agreed. It’s absolutely wild to me that people aren’t just happy folks are into the same stuff they are. It’s a very strange space.
@@PyroChan martial arts training used to have strong fantasy and cult genres within it. Actually it still does but much less so and that is _because_ its been and is being put through public scrutiny of which styles work best or are most effective. Its a necessary check to the charlatans and hacks and untouchable "grand masters" that used to be so prevalent.
Keyboard warriors nowadays don't even sound convincing anymore, it's wild!
It's like they look at martial arts as JUST style instead of like, understanding why the people who train in arts do what they do and how it works.
They just think, "do this if ur a ." and are stuck to how things look rather than how it's supposed to actually work.
as someone who spent over a decade training in capoeira, thank you for making this video.
I have never understood why people argue about which martial art is "the best". I've practiced many years in many different arts. When I hear someone shitting on another martial art, I immediately judge them as immature and inexperienced. I just can't see how someone who's experienced and emotionally mature would do that.
Kung fu is trash. Roast me.
@@JoeHeine *You're* trash.
Depends on where you live. Boxing or wrestling per se totally sh*ts on TKD or aikido if you live in a rough neighborhood
@@scottmerric2180 some “martial arts” just aren’t real. Simple as. Aikido is one of them. If you’re chosen martial arts style doesn’t make you a better fighter it’s not a real martial art.
I agree post intermediate skill martial artists basically are self directed. I wouldn’t think that a private coach is required for that. I think honest and consistent training partners have more value with helping a martial artist figure out their game against different body types etc.
Lol the villain monologue about the martial art industrial complex is my favorite about this video!
Those handforms are always cool. I was fortunate to train with Uechi Ryu practitioners. Aikido has a sense of contemporary sensibility in many context.
Nice footage. In the past we trained in one thing. Internet and MMA and weights gyms have have opened things up, but focus can be lacking. I don't consider Capoeira a real martial art, but I now train in that and it's ALWAYS improving. But, the focus is just looking nice. Fundamentally we need dedicated hard training, but we need to know in WHAT. Personally, I think like the internet, lots of things out there but quality is low. We need to understand what we're doing and why, not just copying. And to practice to instinctiveness. Conbatyis unpredictable. We're not all MMA competitors, but we can develop useful techniques for our own purposes. For some reason (even now I'm older) I've been in lots of fights.. maybe cos I've lived in many bad areas. But anyway, we're all personally responsible for what we train. At 52 I do lots of fitness training, pressups on knuckles, calisthenics, isometric conditioning, and certain weights (eg clean and press which I think is good for throws). In some ways, things have not changed... study and question and find out what is useful. Most men get into fights.. review your fights and keep learning.
I feel like the commercialization, politics and historical ignorance are less important factors. The biggest factors pushing martial arts down in the west is that the general fitness of the population has degraded, and martial arts generally being niche hobbies leaves a smaller talent pool, therefore less and worse athletes and coaches. This is not the case everywhere, some places have very strong martial cultures, but it certainly is in the west.
The biggest factor pushing martial arts up is the internet, which cannot be understated. Anyone with a friend could in theory start practicing and become greats. In young sports like BJJ this has probably happened many times, where a random country without experienced coaches suddenly gets a world class athlete that was just some athletic guy that started training with his buddy because he saw UFC or something. Even though most practicioners are blind to martial arts history, I believe the ignorance was way worse just 20 years ago because of the lack of internet.
I mean Francis Ingannou was just a super athletic, Nigerian refugee who saw boxing and MMA, literally crossed a desert like three times and eventually became a heavyweight champion so yea, great point!
A few points to unpack here.
First off, I’ve been around for creeping up on 30 years in the martial arts space (god I’m getting old) and I honestly haven’t seen much of an uptick in people being truly educated on martial arts. Consider how everyone on the Internet is seemingly an expert on the Internet these days, posting some pretty unhinged stuff-even outside of martial arts, I mean. I don’t think the accessibility has necessarily correlated with understanding, only people *believing* they understand because of some minor exposure.
As for crazy athletes coming out of all this, sure, it happens. Joezef Chen famously started his career on bootleg BJJ instructionals. But at the end of the day, he still ended up graduating to training with some of the best people in the world. And, even more importantly, for every celebrated Josef Chen, how many people try to be self taught and end up going nowhere with it? The Internet might shine a light of freak athletes, sure, but for most people, most of the time I don’t think it’s altered much.
@@TenguMartialArts I feel like it's only a few years ago the wikipedia article for BJJ was wildly innacurate with the arts origins so I feel the internet is helping with the flow of information here. A BJJ practicioner in the past would have no resources to educate himself, but now those resources are widely available if you know where to look, even though it could still be much better. Now I'm young enough to not have grown up in a world pre internet but I'm sure most people just accepted their trainers stories as fact and went none the wiser.
And for the emerging athletes part I agree that most serious athletes move out of their little pond and find a higher level training room (except, famously, Roger Gracie). But every grassroots community that didn't have some experienced black belt move to that area has benefited greatly from studying video. Sure their greatest athletes move away to train seriously but hey wouldn't have become up and coming talents without the grassroots scene supported by media.
I do think the time for these kind of athletes are more and more in the past though, since BJJ is evolving and has become more popular. The competition level was probably pretty low in the past allowing for these kind of people to succeed.
The world is moving fast. Not everyone wants to bow down and worship some old dude that has never been in a real fight. Combat sports offer fast learning, sparring and no BS involved with cult like mindset. Traditional martial arts might work in Japan or the rest of Asia but In Europe most people need an efficient way of defense/fight. I went thru a series of karate, aikido bjj ad came to the conclusion that kickbox , wrestling and boxing are the best in order to apply yourself in a real life situation.
So true, and the #1 culprit for martial art decline is cult mindset, take karate for example too much aesthetics you literally spend the rest of your life training in it at the same time the Dojo makes a living out of your tuition fees they need students like you compare spending that much time with Muay Thai or boxing your probably a pro by now while on karate how long does it takes? till you got your 10-12dan? When you are old already? it's always the journey that matters mind set. Used to be a purple belt back in highschool myself can't do shit with these skill set against street thugs compare that with my training in Muay Thai then boxing it's like instant results, yes we like instant results because beside from martial arts we still have a life outside this art & if cut the clutter and use the effective essentials only it wouldn't be called a traditional martial art anymore, nowadays we call it MMA.
@@ronniechong314 Frankly speaking its just personal preferences. Personally I don't like bowing to pictures of old men that probably never sparred in real life. I'm also not into the whole bow before everyone, a handshake is better and more European, at least for me.
cant speak to TMA, but ive been massively interested in combat sports for many months lately, BJJ/MT/MMA etc....
atleast until i found out about the monthly cost of combat sports gyms in my area (cheapest was $160 a month), a lot of people that would love to get into these are priced out entirely honestly
Everything your saying is true, when ever i enter any school or club I think these are people who just like to be around other people and something to be into that's healthy for them
Great points, as always! I would like to expand and possibly open conversation on something you mentioned, from the part about intermediate level private lesson instruction is necessary... actually, just before it. There is a common practice in schools of having new or junior instructors teach beginners based on them knowing that material the longest, but I've found that when having more seasoned instructors work with beginners it sets them on a better path for learning and becoming more proficient at the art. I know it's kind of a conundrum of needing teaching experience to become a better teacher, but I've seen how impactful it is specifically in the case of beginners.
Agreed. Generally, where I initially trained, assistant teachers were exactly that: assistants to the teacher. This meant the teacher was essentially just delegating you roles, but we was still on the mat and very much keeping an eye on what you were up to (albeit while teaching some other section of the class).
While this usually did mean you were teaching beginners, I don’t think the teacher assistant role was ever given to anyone who wasn’t more like… upper intermediate. I know we are splitting hairs on ranking here, but think brown belts. This usually meant they could rotate around a larger range of lower ranks.
Keep in mind, though, that this was never for a full class. Maybe 30 minutes if the class is 2-ish hours. The rest of the time was the main teaching teaching all the ranks combined. The assistant teacher was typically the “main” person being demonstrated on and would otherwise help supervise if needed. The implication being that they could watch the main teacher close up and learn how to do that job over time.
But yeah, I wouldn’t want an intermediate student guiding a beginner on developmental things. I think that’s a recipe for low quality outcomes.
I especially see that (which style is better) on Facebook and it is annoying, but what really pissed me off is seeing a post, on a taekwondo facebook group, asking what's the difference between taekwondo and karate.
1) why is a taekwondo practitioner asking that question if they've been practicing for more than a month?
2) what karate style are you asking about in particular?
3) shouldn't you know the difference between taekwondo and karate by now if you've been in taekwondo for a long time?
"I cannot think of another internet community that is more consistently incorrect and at its throat as this one is." Really? Where are you finding this civil internet communities at?
Yeah, I can't really imagine the era where ground fighting is the most trained area of combat and takedowns are hardly trained at all after high school as the golden age. I also remember going through the phonebook in the 2000s and it seemed like the martial arts offered were several times more varied than today. The thing that stuck out particularly was that there seemed to be a ton of hapkido back then, and none at all right now.
I also think that the current day internet is a lot more homogenized than it was in the 2000s. I've noticed that a good chunk of the information online about aikido is basically 20 year old Aikiweb posts. Written material in general has died off on the internet. It's strange to me that this is the post-normie era where everyone is a terminally online internet nerd, when this is easily its worst incarnation.
Old Aikiweb posts are the best! It's like we are walking with the shadows of the ancestors.
Wrestling and Judo are still things and theyve been since forever. Boxing also. Kickboxing got popular in the 70s and still has a devoted following with extremely high level striking as the standard. Even in BJJ (which I think youre referencing) todays athletes are incorporating (from other styles) and developing takedowns at a rapid pace. And its common knowledge that MMA success requires stand up competence, arguably more than ground specialization. Yea, there was a minute where ground grappling had the most popular attention but all those other systems didnt just stop existing. As for ground fighting in particular or just grappling in general, its real world effectiveness (along with the difference in skill between competitive and "point fighting" styles compared to people who perform in a context where they really hit each other) was a pretty huge revelation to most of the martial arts world, so yea, it was "the next big thing" for a while but he dust is settling, so to speak, and we're re-calibrating with a better and more honest understanding of martial practice.
@@MP-db9sw Judo and wrestling are around after school, but practicing either as an adult in America is incredibly niche.
Also, bjj takedowns are dogshit tier. I've done both bjj and judo btw.
@@OldSchopenhauer i feel like bjj takedowns are getting a lot better in at least the big texas gyms
@@lawrence4301 Travis Stevens himself has said that he thinks the jiu-jitsu players that say they have good wrestling are morons, and I'd think New Wave would qualify as a big Texas gym.
The learning curve for takedowns is higher than ground game, so in order to have good takedowns the training would have to be unrecognizable as bjj.
Look at things through the lens of “professionals/soldiers” and “recreational” and think you’ll be less stressed out.
Thank you. Nice to see I'm not the only one.
Been trying to figure out what to do on my end. Between the fact money unfortunately seems more important than teaching, and its clear the Edo periods dojo culture greatly diminished martial arts to nothing more than secret society lodges instead of training areas, at least with japanese martial arts, ive really only came up with one solution... go back to the Sengoku model for dojos where youre only teaching those in your family, or village at the largest, in more of a militia style of training. No charge, though i may have a way for students to give to help any new students. Beyond that, I'm trying to focus only on the principles.... which means that its more exercise and sparring... its discipline, not awards... and going to any open matt gyms available to test yourself against people who don't do your style.
Yeah... i probably will only have my son as a student...
The logic doesn't make sense. Edo Dojos reduce martial art to exclusive groups that only mingle among each other so your choice is to make that exclusive group even smaller reducing it to you and like 3 other people.
Interestingly I've heard the top Judo representatives in America say that Judo needs to become more commercialized. Judo has always been a cheap to train, the teachers doesn't make a living off of it, martial art in many many countries. The classic YMCA Judo dojo. I grew up training in a similar cheap Judo dojo, and I've been a volunteer coach to kids whose parents were so thankful to us because they couldn't afford to send kids to other more expensive activites.
But in my home region in scandinavia Judo has been on a sharp decline, from its heyday in 80's and 90's (I'm just guessing at it's peak). Many adults I talk to mention that they trained Judo when they were younger, under my coach even, but participation is becoming lower and lower, the kids less and less athletic (me included), and most of the local clubs in smaller cities which used to have a healthy studen count are dying or already gone. The skills are declining as there are less local competitions because of less parents to help run them.
But BJJ clubs are booming, and they are much much more expensive and more targeted towards adults. Similar observations have been made by Travis Stevens who says that Judo in the US needs to change from the YMCA cheap volunteer coach formula to the more expensive own gym locale paid trainer and better marketing formula.
It seems that there are three options. Coaches either need to be:
1. State funded, likely a part of a school programme, like folkstyle wrestling in the US and Judo in Japan. Unlikely to happen in places where it hasn't already.
2. Make their money from owning their own gyms with more expensive memberships, selling instructionals and going to seminars.
3. Likely less competent volunteer coaches. Who do it on their free time, and don't have the time to do much maintenance of marketing of the club.
It’s the same story in America, too. I’m not opposed to Judo making money, but I’m not really convinced commercializing it is the path to making it “cool.”
hot take
Training at an MMA gym probably shouldn’t feel like I’m paying an intuition.
Is tengu talks ever gonna come back?
It may! It was one of the worst performing videos on the channel, though, owing to the total lack of visuals. If I think there is content suited to that format, then I can definitely bring it back. I was just experimenting with it as an outlet for content that was less in line with my normal stuff, although still loosely related.
So basically, it just depends. If you have suggestions or requests, feel free to put them here. I'm all ears.
Do you think it would be fair to say people no longer pursue martial arts they pursue combat sports?
I think that’s probably a fair characterization. For most people now, competition seems to be the primary end goal. Which is fine, but the side effect seems to be that everything else is getting put at the wayside.
I sense that some of this comes from the feeling that people want “real” martial arts, but at the same time are completely ignorant that “real” martial arts have long been a cultural product (even in the West) for both fitness, mental growth, and enjoyment of heritage. The heavily polished, corporatized, bureaucratized martial arts we have now is pretty new and *not* really “authentic” at all. That isn’t to say politics and money haven’t always been in the mix, they have been, but the scale we are seeing now is pretty fresh. Unfortunately, it seems like the narrative now is that being a part of that highly curated, corporate expression of martial arts is what is consider the “best” way.
It’s a whole other video, but I genuinely don’t think even most of those in the combat sports space are getting paid that much. I’m fine with that all existing, just not as the end-all-be-all.
Thanks for the reply! I feel pretty much the same about the whole thing. I enjoy Karate as exercise and a way to keep in relative shape. I did Savate for a number of years and loved the point fighting aspect. The few friends I have that enjoy martial arts are into it for "da streets" which I find strange living in a first world nation that has very little actual violent crime. @@TenguMartialArts
Is the same thing. Combat sports were breed for self defense and war. The only thing they are not pretending this toxic reverence that my sensei/Sifu master is an enlisted being. Combat sports focus in what is important in martial arts.
@benbudin Your comment illustrated his point beautifully...just not in the way you probably intended.
👍
No matter the content, humans will find a way to make a dollar off every thing.
you leave anime rash-guards alone!
Interesting points brought up in the video. Im one who believes that we are in a sort of golden age for martial arts but with a huge caveat: the term "golden age" isnt specific enough on its own to really mean anything. What are the criteria for golden ages? Was there only one golden age for all martial arts? Do individual styles have golden ages which are culturally specific to their time and place and irrespective of the golden ages of other styles? Isnt it plausible to say the golden age was back in the feudal era when arrows, armor and horses were the height of military technology? Does current military strategy, tactics, and equipment count as "martial arts"?
I think my take on martial literacy is the inverse of the one youre making in the sense that I consider the opinions of the bottom (approximately) 70% of people who have opinions to be irrelevant because their opinion is poorly informed, at best, and misinformed more often. I dont care what they think because they arent the ones driving the development at the highest levels of performance
I am sympathetic to the points about todays education compared to the past but Im not a historian and cannot speak confidently about the comparison. Human beings tend to jump to conclusions based on biases and I doubt this is a new phenomenon.
I love Sylvie's channel. To greatly over simplify the topic, the golden age of Muay Thai and its decline have a lot to do with the betting culture around the sport, the influence (or control) that the gamblers have on gyms and the expectations this puts on the gyms and fighters to perform in certain ways. So, money.
On the point of when certain styles stop "looking like" themselves as they work to become more functional; this is actually a relevant point, easily illustrated by Aikido and Wing Chun - two commonly disparaged styles. In the rare instances when Aikidoka put themselves to the test in a public way they tend to get beat up and the few times their techniques actually work tend to look like sloppy Judo. So why not just do Judo?
Wing Chun has a similar tendency in that when WC practitioners fight for real, they tend to either get beat by practitioners of more functional systems or they drop the stance and punching techniques that are characteristic of WC and end up adopting - and thus looking like - kickboxing styles, so why not just do kickboxing? - in both cases this is because the competitive styles of Judo and kickboxing (Muay Thai, Savate, etc) were originally based on function and outcomes, not on the visual aesthetics and not on some pseudo-scientific "theory" (center-line) or presumed esoteric principle (of Aiki or "harmony").
Judo "theory" or Muay Thai "theory" to the extent there is any, came as a result of developing and refining functionally effective movement patterns, patterns that "work", first, and then analysing them to understand and explain why they work, afterwards. So the process was "find what works, then develop "theory" to explain why it works" compared to WC or Aikido in which the theory was presupposed and the systems were built around them.
I love your point about the commodification of martial arts. I love this point because it segues into a bigger discussion about capitalism in general. In a society where profit is a literal requirement for basic survival, and the very word "success" is fundamentally tied to wealth and the acquisition of wealth is the single largest factor in the degree to which one can exercise their personal freedom, _everything_ ends up being commodified. Everything becomes a product. Buying and selling is the most basic staple of modern, capitalistic civilization and everything we do is integrated into that framework.
In ages prior to the modern, "mass training" era that you mention, the decision to delve into martial arts training was to a great extent predetermined by the society and family one was born into. In feudal societies with strict hierarchies like Japan or much of Europe, the best martial training (not to mention the equipment associated with it like swords and armor) was primarily (often exclusively) the domain of the nobility. Members of the peasantry were often conscripted (and there are examples of especially talented and tenacious men rising in status as a result of exemplary martial service) but their primary role in society was to be farmers. People didnt "do" martial arts in those days. Training wasnt a hobby or ones "passion" - one was born into the social class whose job it was to wage war. Nowadays we put kids in Karate or Judo to "teach them discipline" or because it "builds character" and adults identify with "being" a "martial artist" or living the "martial arts way of life" but these are just as much contrivance of the modern era as the mass training and formalized curriculums you mentioned.
So I think the ratio of the truly serious or more "martially literate" practitioners compared to the more shallow "fantasy fighting" hobbyists is basically inevitable. While a greater percentage of modern practitioners may be content with a superficial understanding of what theyre doing, the percentage of the overall population that has access not just to training but to high quality is much, much higher in todays world. Which is why I consider today to be the "golden age" of martial arts.
Modern people have access to McDojos, sure, and many dont know enough to know the difference but if you want to train with Judo world champions, you can. If you want to train at Saenchai's gym, or go train with Sylvie, or at Renzo' or Top Team or Jackson/Wink, theyre open. Literally just going to high school in most places (in USA) gives access to a wrestling program with at least a potential pipeline to college scholarships and even Olympic medals. America's history of racial injustice and capitalist exploitation notwithstanding, the financial barriers to high level training are not embedded in a systemic and inflexible caste system. And even if the financial barrier of traveling and membership fees is too high, there are hundreds of thousands of instructionals out there from world class practitioners of any number of styles and of course this platform right here. O have playlists with technique lessons from gold medalists and world champion athletes from across disciplines. No one is forced to remain in the shallow water of their martial arts understanding in todays world. The deepest waters are accessible to pretty much everyone who is capable of navigating them, today, and thats why its the Golden Age, in my opinion.
This is an amazing video. Agree totally with all your points here!
An honor to have you commenting on the channel! Wish you the best with your own work and upcoming Okinawa trip!
@@TenguMartialArts thanks man! I binge watched a bunch of your videos this morning! Love your insights!
@MonkeyStealsPeach I really appreciate it. Someday when I’m visited China with my wife I’ll have to figure out if we can’t train a little or chat or something if you’re up for it. Her side of the family is based up in Heilongjiang, though, so I suspect that would put us geographically far apart ha
Wish you the best with your upcoming content, though. I think you’re among a niche few shining a positive light on the Chinese MA and the way you exchange/interact with other arts has done much to inspire my own philosophy around similar things. If you find yourself on a layover in Tokyo, feel free to reach out!
@@TenguMartialArts thanks, I’m actually living in Australia now though. Would be great to meet up too, unfortunately my layover in Tokyo for this trip is only a couple of hours
@MonkeyStealsPeach Ah, gotcha! No worries at all. Just something to keep in mind if you’re ever out this way again in the future!
I wish you safe travels and many on-sale snacks during your layover.
There´s way too many McDojos xD
style does not excist they are just really addresses of dojo
I disagree but cool video you have access to platforms like grapplers guide, bjj fanatics, yt etc i think if anything we're in over bearing amount fluff time like you seen gordon ryan making striking instructionals 😂 maybe traditional martial arts and like philosophies and what not is gone but rn we have too much junk
I mean, I think that’s kind of what I’m talking about in many ways, though. A lot of what is online is fluff and doesn’t really help much. It’s just kind of getting produced to be purchased.
Well said. “Style” is bullshit.