Mover. Thanks for your description of the T-38 crash and the accident report. Well done. From the mid seventies to the late eighties, I served as a T-38 line IP, Flight Commander, Flight Examiner, Operations Officer, and Commander of the 50th FTS at Columbus AFB. I was also a T-38 PIT instructor at Randolph Air Force Base, and an Air Training Command Inspector General Operations Inspector. I say the above only to establish the fact that I know what I’m talking about. Who I am talking to are current instructors and pilots who fly the Talon. 1. There’s a reason the T-38 is known as the attrition machine. It’s hard to fly, and even harder to fly well. This was intentional, since it was meant to screen out people who couldn’t handle century series fighters like the F-104 and the F-105. The fact that we’re still flying a sixty-year-old design is another matter. If you don’t like it, write your representative in congress. 2. Some instructors are unwilling to “ride” the stick and throttles while the student is flying the machine. DO IT! If you’re good at it, the student won’t know it, and if students complain, they must have pretty sensitive hands. Maybe you can back off a little bit but know where the stick and throttles are at all times - no exceptions. 3. The weather at Columbus AFB is challenging, to say the least. As a result, the squadrons are always trying to shoehorn training events in anywhere they can. Don’t do it. If you get behind the timeline, so be it. Columbus has a long history of fatal accidents for exactly this reason. 4. Two fine young officers died honorably in this incident. Don’t let it go to waste - learn from it.
Sir : My point is that the T 38 is so critical at low speed and high AOA that weeding students off at this stage of training in a high performance jet is dangerous. Certain skills are required to qualify for a fighter jet: stress management, high workload tolerance, and assertiveness are, among spatial orientation, specific skills required for a future fighter pilot. Additionally, the USAF has flight simulators where they can teach IPs how to deal with this scenario without losing any airmen or aircraft. Finally, flying in high-density controlled airspace is incompatible with disorientation. If a highly capable international student has not yet overcome the language barrier, send him back home or design a special course for him/her in a less difficult airspace. A last point to raise is a question for you: Don`t you find strange the IP`s lack of attention the last few seconds? Final words for both brave aviators : God bless you and your families and friends .
@@astircalix4126 You make some good points. I'll only address this one: "weeding students off at this stage of training in a high performance jet is dangerous." You're right, it is dangerous, and to the extent that it is possible, unnecessary danger should be avoided. Having said that, all military training for combat is by nature dangerous. In this case, the root cause of the accident was pilot error, not the airplane in question. This is no criticism of the pilots involved. It is simply a fact, and we must learn from it to avoid making the same mistake again.
Bob , you are correct. I was a 38 FAIP at Reese, 85-89. I want to know if this intl student was weak. 80% of them are. Only seasoned senior IPs should fly with these students. They are a constant threat to normal safe ops. If 38s are now for only fighter qual students, this one sounds like he should not have been in the program. I'm published in July 2000 Flying Safety. Cheers.
That was a really tough one Mover. A lot of small things conspired to overload these young men. Even though I have not flown the 38 since 1975 I was transported into that cockpit and feeling the stress. You are spot on about the 38, it is a basic unforgiving sled.
Old I last flew it in '73 but don't recall it being that difficult....but then I had a great IP who also was a 1Lt FAIP. Like Mover said, the plane talked to you, ie buffet. Loved doing closed patterns pulling it to light buffet. The T-38 made the F-4 seem easy to land.
Incredible how such an awful event tragically unites generations of pilots. Glad you made it, Sir. May our honored dead rest in peace. Whether in training or in war.
Former Columbus AFB T-38 IP here, my respects to Lt. Ames' family. I saw that scenario many times with students that any delay on my part from taking control of the jet would have resulted in a difficult situation to say the least. High AOA and high sink rate close to the dirt will kill you in an instant.
RIP Scot. Had the honor of him being one of my cadet instructors back in college before commissioning. An outstanding leader and person. Gone too soon.
A great summing up. The worst thing about loss of SA is you so often don't know it's happening until something bites you in the ass. The best you can do is to know the situations when it's likely and be on guard. A tragic event.
Great overview - I was a T-38 IP at Sheppard - Wonderful aircraft - Makes the best pilots - But flight idle dirty is somewhere I would never let any one be - Recovery time is just too long... So sad it developed so deep.
When I was moving to high performance/complex a/c, my instructor took me to Greensboro NC as I needed 10 in the a/c for insurance reasons. I found out in a BIG hurry how quickly I can become task saturated!!! We were instructed to land on the same runway as all the FedEx planes, "caution wake turbulence"... That blew my mind and between all the ATC language that I didn't understand and the new to me complex a/c things I had to do, I shut down the hearing part like you said and the instructor took the radios for me, (I don't even remember that part). Task saturation is REAL!!! And I found out I had an awful lot of learning left to do!!! Thanks Mover, tough one for sure...
As someone studying for their CFI I appreciate this factual and professional debrief. I hate to hear about fellow aviators having fatal misshaps, it's truly tragic. I do appreciate you doing these breakdowns though so the rest of us can hopefully not learn these lessons the hard way. Nickel on the grass and prayers for both of their families.
As one CFI to another… don’t take anything for granted when teaching your students. Check and double check everything… and if you’re not sure if somethings safe… then you already know. Good luck and don’t let anyone pressure you or your students into flying if it doesn’t ‘look right’. There’s plenty of time to get the experience safely
Thank you for the read through and commentary. As a civilian student pilot, prior military (non-aviator), I have watched several videos on this accident (and lots of others on RUclips). Your explanation as to how the air-frame responded with the inputs, weather, and possible mental conditions of the pilot and IP are amazing. As a GA student pilot, I totally see myself as the student pilot in this report. -Looking at my current civilian training in a Cessna 172 and my super low time (11hrs), when the report noted "engines to idle" - my heart sank. -When you used the phrase "helmet fire" - that's been me, going into the pattern. My instructor has always been there beside me to assist. -When the report said the student over corrected - that's been me. In turns, adjusting speed, leveling off, rudder inputs, in it all. I've been there. -When the report called out the instructor for not taking control sooner, I can see that being me. I can see that in my instructors. -The task saturation and "helmet fire" are real. I'm putting this down again, because I've been there: Going into the pattern, speed, altitude, stay below the shelf, watch the adjoining airspace, listen to ATC, listen to other aircraft in the pattern, look for other aircraft, pitch, flaps, join the downwind, turn to base, flaps, turn to final, flaps, speed, ATC. When you get task saturated, you can loose confidence in your abilities super fast. Training makes us better.
Your knowledge and compassion are outstanding. You bring an overview that is both illuminating and thoughtful. Thank you. RIP and respect to all who give their lives to keep us all safe.
As a former student pilot in the T 38 and pilot in ADC listening to your description of this incident brings to mind a situation that I got into because I thought I was infallible. Top of my class, had an easy time in pilot training and a lights out night landing off a tactical pitch fighting a limiting crosswind, should have gone around . I landed and immediately went into serious vertigo. Shut down both engines on my B57E. Preparing to exit the side of the runway. I stopped and when my vision came back I was in the center of the runway. Whew!! Part of training in any aircraft should include teaching cockiness and flying don’t mix.
Good analysis. As a former USAF pilot, class 76-04, the T-38 was an amazing aircraft to fly, but...you never got slow and never kept the engines at idle for more than a few seconds, Such a sad story. Happy trails and tail winds to them....
Each mishap that ends in tragedy is terrible, but as a fellow aviator, I appreciate you taking the time to walk through these post-incident findings. The lessons learned are invaluable.
I work at Columbus Air Force Base. Losing a couple of your own is never easy. Thank you very much for the respectful way you explained this. You do a great job with all of your videos! Keep up the great work!
Mover, as an IP in the F-4, I had reoccurring problems in communication with foreign pilots: 1. Understanding basic communications 2. After chastising for dangerous actions, basically shutting down and having a helmet freeze. I repeatedly had to take the aircraft after the students would "shut down" in flight. After a squadron meeting of IP's, this turned out to be a somewhat common reaction, and required additional training for all IP's.
Circling Approaches require extra vigilance in any aircraft but especially in an aircraft such as the T-38. I also flew this aircraft in my USAF Pilot training (1968). At 850 AGL, there is no margin for error in the T-38 in airspeed or sink rate. You said it, it is an unforgiving aircraft especially at such a low altitude in a landing configuration (dirty). If the T-38 is stalled that close to the ground with its short wings, no amount of power from its engines can fly you out of that situation. Never go there !!!
@@oskrm exactly what I’m thinking. The aircraft seems to be a big factor in a lot of these crashes. I get they have to have difficult aircraft to train for difficult aircraft, but is it not time for an upgrade?
Worth noting that astronauts Bassett and See died in a T38A attempting a circling approach under similar circumstances in 1966. That plane does not seem to like circling approaches in IFR conditions, even if you're an elite test pilot.
Its always a tragedy when training ends in a fatal accident. A friend of mine was killed in a training accident in the US Army several years ago, and my heart goes out to the Family and Friends of the crew
Something I find interesting is the fact that nowhere is it mentioned (unless I missed it) if this instructor was this student's primary instructor or how many times they had flown together. If the instructor had been aware of the tendencies and language problems it could have certainly affected how far he would allow him to go down the wrong path.
Sad tale. My dad was a T-38 IP, at Webb and at Columbus. One time he flew in the back seat with an international student on his SOLO cross country. Precautionary action. He found your discussion to be interesting, accurate, and compassionate.
This is always difficult to hear about but thank you for doing these videos as a knowledgeable guy with experience. Rest in peace to both young men and prayers to all impacted by this tragedy.
Thank you for the respectful and professional analysis, Mover. As a native English speaker with some Japanese language abilities (as you pointed out…at zero speed, G, and altitude)…I know my ability to understand Japanese would drop to zero under similar conditions and probably well before that. Like the pilots in the mishap aircraft it seems that the training system was making corrections in response to student performance but, it eventually lost situational awareness and was unable to ultimately correct.
I am not a pilot but I play piano and take piano lessons, and what I've learned is that I'm a biological entity and what he called "helmet fires" is a real thing even for those of us who stay at 0 speed and 1 g, and 0 altitude above ground. What I can do when I am calm with no problem, I can no longer do when I am saturated, as the report calls it. Beyond saturation point there is a point I simply call "the melt", or "flooding". It seems to me that a lot of military early preparations including basic training, are intended to bring the candidate into a near flood state, and if possible, bring them into it, because working on your physiological and mental responses to extreme environments is part of the work for a soldier. For a military aviator, all that times ten.
One reason why many Japanese and many other ESL learners struggle to understand English speech is that in natural speech some words can be reduced so much that they completely unintelligible in isolation. See ruclips.net/video/WxmEQsI_epM/видео.html ESL learners who studied English by learning words in isolation often struggle to recognize them in natural speech. Add to that significant phonological differences between English and Japanese, and you realize that things start to fall apart even before you try to translate anything in your head.
I'm a native speaker of both English and Japanese (and a retired USAF NCO and now private pilot) and I can tell you, almost all Japanese pilot trainees miltiary or civilian are BARELY functional in English. More than once I've been sitting in the runup area and had to ask ground controller if I could switch a struggling student pilot to a diff frequency to ask he was having trouble with in his native language and advise him to cancel his flight because he's just not getting it. They're not pre-screening their candidates for language aptitude before they select them for pilot training.
@@SVSky Language aptitude under extreme task loading would be a very interesting kind of testing to do. Basically, a TOEFL administered while people are yelling at you, and fireworks are going off.
I’m retired Air Force (not a pilot). We had foreign students in both my BOC and PME. They all get a DLI course, but it’s minimal. They struggled with English, hung out with each other, were not billeted with us, and consequently got very little spoken English practice outside training hours. It was frustrating for us, but not life threatening. Huge respect for the IPs doing this.
Worth noting that astronauts Bassett and See died in a T38A attempting a circling approach under similar circumstances in 1966. That plane seems to severely punish inattentively-executed circling approaches in IFR conditions. If two elite test pilots can get caught out, I suppose it could happen to anybody, and clearly has again.
Believe they crashed into the McDonnell Douglas building that was building their Gemini capsule. Ironic and very sad. Ted Freeman, another Gemini era astronaut and I believe the first black astronaut, was also killed in a t38 but his was a bird strike.
NASA´s accident (poor weather/ two T 38 A) different from the T-38C Mishap in Montgomery ( circling practice in VMC) . en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1966_NASA_T-38_crash#Investigation_and_aftermath
Very True. I Recently Read That Deke Slayton Stated In His Autobiography That See's Pilot Skills Were Lacking But They Were Scheduled To Fly Gemini In Three Weeks!
My grandfather owns a farm about five minutes from Columbus AFB, which is a pilot training base. Sometime in the 1980s a T-38 crashed on his farm and he was able to help the pilot cut himself down from a tree. Later, my father trained on T-38s at the same base. When my father and my uncle (who is also an AF pilot) heard that they were replacing the T-38, they said “It’s about time. Those things are so slow you almost stall at level flight, and besides that they have a turn radius the size of Texas!”
I spent 7 years flying 38's at CBM. I see they are still pressing the time line. Taking a weak student with no landing currency to a drop in with holding and circling in real weather and icing conditions on his first flight in 2 weeks...this would be enough to break my strongest students. Real shame.
Deaths in training are so heartbreaking. One of my test engineers died in water survival training at NAS Pensacola and that hurt so bad. I my self as a flight engineer have been so close to being this crew so many times. God speed Airman.
Not a pilot here, flight line mech, but lost a T-38 at Vance AFB but my crew made it. Aircraft lost the canopy on climb out and the IP’s arm got hung up in the seat and the SP had to bring it in. SP did a great job all things considered. Smoked the brakes and blew a tire but she made it home. We had some great IP’s when I was there. Never really understood why we kept using such an old and unforgiving aircraft for training but that’s above my pay grade. Sorry to hear we lost this crew. Thanks for the review Mover. Always educational and professional.
I haven't flown the T-38 since 1983 but I remember it can be very unforgiving. Things happen very quickly in the landing pattern. If I remember circling approach speed is 175kts plus fuel, final approach speed 155kts plus fuel. Circling is a high risk maneuver in any aircraft, you have to continually monitor the weather, position with respect to the runway, aircraft performance, landing checks. But with the T-38's speed you need so much more maneuvering room (and higher Category D minimums I believe), it can be difficult to keep the runway in sight and complete the turn to final, especially since you are lower than the normal pattern altitude. I would rate actual circling in the T-38 after an instrument approach perhaps under a low ceiling as an emergency maneuver to be avoided if possible. Even training in good weather you have to be on top of things. You can get fixating on the runway and get too slow. Doubly hard for an instructor pilot who has to monitor the student while doing all this. Once you get in a low airspeed/low altitude/high sink situation it's too late and you may be out of the ejection envelope. This IP was very competent, and it happened to him. Sadly final turn accidents have happened many times in T-38's for a variety of reasons. From the T-38 "Dash 1" flight manual (I still have mine): " If a high sink rate condition is allowed to develop excessive altitude loss will occur and recovery may not be possible at traffic pattern altitudes". It's past time to send the T-38's to the boneyard, fortunately the replacement T-7A is on the way, which will be easier to fly.
One wonders, why don't they let the studnets do these circling approaches in the simulator before letting them try it in the actual plane. If they had bad flying weather, the students had all the time to hit the simulator while there was no flying.
I agree with others - great analysis and your compassion is very much appreciated. (There but for the grace of God go I.”) Your discussion brings back many memories despite the fact that it’s been almost half a century for me. (It’s like it was yesterday.) I had to smile when you started talking about “the elephants on the wings” - same terminology as back then. I’d never heard of a “helmet fire” but immediately knew what you meant by that too! Class 73-01 Williams AFB, FAIP at Williams & RSU senior controller. (Then “rated supp” at WPAFB, AF Aero Propulsion Laboratory & T-39 part time, then Braniff (2 yrs), and NWA/Delta. Retired in 2010.) Air Force UPT was a great experience, and the training was a great foundation for the rest of my career.
Excellent video, Mover. Thanks for another great opportunity to learn and get better, which is really the point. My condolences to Lt Ames’ family and to the family of the JSDF officer who perished.
I found your channel this AM. Great job with this review. I'm a retired SMSgt maintainer and aviation enthusiast. I'm subscribed now to your channel. Having more birthdays is important - keep sharing so the learning can continue.
Training is never a given free pass… As a military vet & career firefighter we tend to hesitate when we should be yelling out… May God comfort their families & great explanation Mover! God Bless us all!
Man, every time I view one of these analysis of mishaps and especially fatal mishaps I double down on my pre-flight planning and remind myself constantly to risk assess and err on the side of caution. When pilots as good as this IP lose their lives it makes you humble and respect the potential dangers of flying
As always, thanks for keeping it professional by waiting for the final AIB report instead of speculating like a lot of other channels. You're doing the right thing.
Very sad story. I've logged a lot of instructor and evaluator hours, and one of the things they always hammered into us at instructor school: NEVER let the student's limits exceed yours. Unfortunately we have to be reminded by the lessons of others. RIP to those two pilots.
Breaks my heart. God bless them and their families! You’ve mentioned before in your struck by lighting video when things just start to stack up against you flying in a situation that isn’t critical, don’t go up. Something to truly push for , really considering the warning signs, for ANYTHING in life. I feel so sad for both and their families.
I work next to Huntsville International, where T38's fly in and out all the time. Sad.Sad. Sad. I had no idea these things were difficult to fly. Prayers to the families invlolved
This analysis is really interesting. It’s amazing how quickly things can go from good to unrecoverable. I never realized how slow the aircraft is to respond to adding power. I guess I had always imagined it was nearly instant.
There was an incident in late 60s of an A-7A in which the pilot moved the throttle back to idle with not much altitude, realized it, tried to correct, couldn't, ejected safely. The aircraft landed in a field, suffered some damage. The A-7 was heavily instrumented for flight testing, so we used it later as a test article. The throttle detent was significantly revised. The incident occurred between Dallas and Ft Worth.
Thank you for this thorough, respectful accident analysis. If the pilots were landing into the sun, the glare at some angles can be almost totally blinding, & perhaps was a serious contributing factor in this tragic mishap.
Ugh! Heartbreaking! Thanks, Mover, for the thoughtful, helpful and heartfelt brief. T-38 FAIP here, 88-91. Circling approaches, just like wing landings were bread and butter T-38 flying at training bases. Just no room for error. IPs need to keep things tight and be much farther ahead of the student and the jet than this IP was. Seems like something was off with him that day, not just the break in flying tempo from the crazy polar vortex. Curious how much pre-flight approach briefing was accomplished before they even stepped to the jet considering they dropped the ball on divert fuel planning and missed the local sortie only limitation in the logbook of the spare jet. No mention in the report of briefing the approach and circling procedures before hitting the IAF going into Montgomery. Don’t know why they started the circle so early while they were still outside the step down altitude limit 2.5 miles from the MAP/approach end of Rwy 10. They were setup perfectly to continue to the MAP at the approach end of rwy10 then jink about 10 degrees right and fly 45 degrees off of 10-28, keeping the runway in sight, and getting perfect spacing for the base turn to 28. Instead they flew 90 degrees off for 45 seconds with too much airspeed and winds out of the north that messed up their downwind spacing causing the undershoot. They left the tacan final approach course in the HSI instead of dialing in the 28 localizer for situational awareness on the gauges. The IP let the student go too far with excessive bank angles, throttle control and unstable airspeed and decent rate. I wonder if all that HUD stuff distracts from basic pitch and power, aim point airspeed cross check. I assume Montgomery is pretty popular with the Columbus guys and this IP was familiar. As soon as he saw the bad spacing and the erratic controls by a marginal student the IP should have taken the jet and given a good demo. I never felt students learned anything from flailing. A deteriorating situation can easily be turned into a good teaching opportunity by a heads up IP. Plus, it’s practically a blank check with the foreign students, at least it used to be, so no grade book pressure to complete this one maneuver.
Very surprised they didn't catch the fact that all the other jets were going direct to TLH. When I was a flight commander in the T-37, always emphasized to my IPs to be conservative and get the best training when the weather allowed. Prayers for the crew and their families....
Great analysis - I can see how this would happen. One open question would be was this the first time the IP flew with this student? Sounds like he was giving him a bit longer leash than he should have. The other students rated the IP highly since he seemed to be more "hands off".
I'm currently in flight school (Navy side) and generally we do like instructors more that are hands off. Allows us to make our mistakes and learn from them rather then being micromanaged and not learning outside of someone else always having the controls (if they have the controls you don't and they have way more flight hours then we do). I can study a flight book all day long, but doesn't mean I can correctly implement what I'm learning. That being said, their will always be a fine line between hands off vs hands on approach. If anything really jeopardizes lifes then yes the IP should take control. But coming in to land in a jet, we are talking about seconds where in this case the sink rate was so high already. FYI, most incidences in pilot training commands actually aren't student to instructor relationships but rather instructor to instructor flying together.
Mover thank you for doing this video! Looking through all of the USAF fam writing comments below shows to why you all are the absolute best at what you do!! Thank you all for keeping our skies and country safe! Truly!
My younger brother was part of the 2021 SUPT program in Columbus AFB during the period of this accident as an international student from Nigeria, there were two Japanese students in their program at the time, one was involved in this sad incident. I recall my brother telling me about this incident. Unfortunately my brother also passed away in a plane crash while doing a training exercise for an airshow back in Nigeria this year in April. His accident happened alongside his colleague who also did the SUPT as an international student at Laughlin AFB. I vividly recall his narrations of how grueling the SUPT program was, especially the T38 phase.
Flew as a T-38 IP from 68-72 where in addition to USAF students, we had Norwegian, Jordanian and Iranian students. The Arabic students had significant language and cultural issues (some of these Middle Eastern students had never flown until they flew commercially to the US and a few never even drove cars before they came here). The Norwegian spoke English well and had previous flight experience as well. The language issue, as you noted, was a huge drawback for these students. As an IP, one had to learn early to avoid letting your student go too far. You wanted him to learn but the danger situation was always there so inexperienced IPs had to be cautious. In addition to teaching the student to fly, your job was to be God and to save both your lives.
CAFB ‘85-‘88 as IG BEET Deputy Chief for RP & Chief Medical Evaluator. Ran a couple of MAREs one of which was similar to this mishap. So sorry to hear of this mishap. Thoughts and prayers out to families. Thanks for such a great review.
Mover, great analysis, tough subject, I'm feeling the pain of the families. Tragic, to say the least. My heart goes out to them. Thanks for going there. What poked me in the eye was the nine days off. During our 1980 deployment on SARATOGA/CVW3 to the Med (a, 'Love Boat cruise' to be honest...), CAPT Flatley did something that I learned a lot from. We would pull into Naples (for example) for two weeks. No flying. OMG. So, first day back out at sea, he would just have the airwing launch, stay dirty and simply enter the pattern via a left downwind. We would do five touch and go's on the ship and then put the hook down and full stop. These are day carrier landings, so, they are not exactly Gerber baby food (for the general pilot population) but they were a chance for all of us to, "...get back in the saddle..." To wit, most deployments (combat or not) would lose at least one aviator on the average. That cruise, we didn't lose a soul! I am eternally thankful to him. By the way, this is the same LT Flatley that landed a C-130 on the deck of the FORRESTAL just to see if it could be done. He was successful. Amazing gent and pilot! There are YT videos of that to enjoy.
Ramm I attacked the Saratoga in the Med during an exercise around the '77 time frame. In the mid '80's in the same exercise an F-14 guy from the same carrier shot down one of our RF-4C's.
I believe he is currently an instructor pilot in the T-38A. Someone correct me if I’m wrong but I believe that’s correct. I do know he is flying the T-38 currently tho
When it first came out in the 60s, it replicated the century series fighters. It's also not a primary trainer. It's an advanced trainer for people going to fighters (They've already flown T-6s before this).
Not all training is designed to be easy. The 38 is certainly not an easy jet to fly, and it requires full attention and skill at every moment. That is its purpose.
Working on and flying the new VR T-38C sims that the USAF is now using has really given me an appreciation for the challenge of flying this jet. Not even the sim is easy even though I know the jet and systems like the back of my hand as a developer on it.
A recent crash of a twin Cessna was an example of SA confusion at the point that a pilot seemed to be stumped when ATC cleared him for a CA, too. You could hear it in his voice and his failure to comply with any ATC instructions. Stalls trying to position an aircraft, as you know.... have taken the lives of all kinds of pilots in all types of planes. This was one interesting example of that monster. A final sad salute to them both. And, a heartfelt prayer for their families.
Why was a First Assignment Instructor Pilot (FAIP) assigned to a struggling foreign student with English skills so bad he literally needed his IP to be his radio operator? Why was a more senior (or Japanese language trained) IP not assigned instead in an effort to mitigate some of the "high risk" they knew was involved? If no instructor could be found that would sufficiently reduce the SP's risk factors, why was he not politely grounded and sent back to Japan? Why did all the other IP/SP pairs run off normally on their missions and leave these two aviators (both junior in their roles) to struggle together on a badly-planned mission until a disaster occurred? I don't like seeing this. It makes me wonder about the unspoken human factors at that unit. It makes me say "hmm".
There's a very serious cultural angle that I am sure the command level is probably aware of: If you send him back to Japan with a failing grade there is a HIGH probablity he will commit suicide before he leaves US soil.
@@SVSky Why would they accept such a candidate? People fail demanding courses all the time. With such a diseased mindset as you describe, Abe Lincoln would have shot himself 12 times over. I doubt the JSF has professionals with such a medieval mindset these days. If you're not hacking it and you refuse to fail, the only alternative is catastrophe or fraud. Either option is grossly dishonorable when you're in an airplane.
@@SVSky Honestly, my suspicion is that the nugget instructor got put with the low-performing ESL guy because the decision was made at command level that he was going to be a "boulder student" - an inanimate and unhelpful object that must be pushed through the course thru brute strength from multiple people, then dropped as quickly as possible (in this case, back in Japan). While confident they could pull it off, having to nursemaid a mediocre pilot with minimal English skills was an intensive and onerous task that the more senior IPs tried to avoid at every opportunity, especially since he was going to "pass" anyway and get shipped back to Japan regardless and there was no sense denying their more advanced instructor experience to SP's with actual potential to learn and excel. Keep in mind, this guy was so non-fluent that he needed his IP to do all his radio traffic for him "for the safety of the flight". That would simply never be tolerated for anything except deliberate diplomatic reasons because it's so ridiculous.
Flying with foreign students who struggle with ATC communications (keep in mind speaking through an oxygen mask over radio) is normal at USAF pilot training bases. USAF trains, Turkish, Italian, Japanese, Malaysia, Saudi, Lebanese, Iraqi, Afghani (used to), Nigerian, Polish, among others. Comm is always an issue.
My next door neighbor was an airforce IP pilot and check pilot in the T-38. We were talking and he told me the T-38 was the best aviation filter available to training instructors. The tendency of the T-38 to lawn dart on the base to final turn was notorious. Students had a tendency to allow the jet to get slow and the outcome was inevitable, either abort your final approach or become one with the dirt. He showed me pictures of a crater of two of his students who were on their final check flight, got slow at the turn and they went straight into the ground. Wasn’t a very big crater….
SAD to listen to this. My dad got his airmans certificate from the CAA after WW II on the GI Bill. One student killed on solo stunting over family farm. Decades later he had to take control of a Cessna 187 while heading west on a hunting trip with no current medical because the pilot in command had the plane in a spin and did not realize it. My dad pulled them out a 500 feet near Minot ND in lowering weather conditions not having flown solo since his student days as he got the Certificate just to prove a one eyed pilot could pass the exams to open the door for others to follow. Keep up the good reporting.
A friend of mine from high school, Captain Paul "Stuck" Barbour, was killed in a T-38 crash on November 20th, 2017 about 14 miles outside of Laughlin AFB, Texas. I have heard that he was unable to eject because his seat wasn't armed. It's said he and the instructor pilot who was requalifying him were talking while they were going through the preflight checklist and they missed it. The instructor was somehow able to arm his seat but Paul was trapped. He was a great guy and is deeply missed. Every Thanksgiving I think about him and always will.
This is so very sad to hear, Salutes to the aviators lost in this incident. 68-8099, I knew this particular airframe extremely well back in the 1980s as the crew chief.
I joined a friend, a retired Lt. Col. giving a check ride in a Bell 407 to a Japanese student pilot. At the end of the test, my friend failed him due to poor communication abilities (specifically inability to communicate in clear English). The student pilot flew just fine, however.
I dont hear much about CAB much anymore since I moved to Florida but I loved going to the airshows there as a kid. I think I have some signed pics from the T-birds when they were flying T-38's in the late 70's. Good times.
Wow, this is a very harsh situation. I completely agree with your assessment. I can't imagine how hard it would be for me to go to Japan and try to train in an unfamiliar aircraft while ATC and my IP are speaking Japanese. However this situation does show how dedicated the SP was and how hard he had to work to complete this entire exercise. All problems aside the fact is that flying military aircraft and the training that goes with this job is extremely dangerous and anyone who gets in the cockpit knows this fact and accepts the consequences. As an American I do feel bad when a member of one of our closest allies dies in a training exercise. Also I do not in any way feel this reflects on the Japanese Defense Forces. It just goes with the territory and I hope this accident does not reflect poorly on us in the eyes of our Japanese friends/allies. I do think we should train as much as possible with our allies in the Pacific regions given the belligerent attitude of the Chinese military and the CCP. To all of you awesome people in our military I can't thank you enough for all you do. God bless you all. 🇺🇸🇯🇵
I put in a lot of GA hours in the Bay area/ Central Valley a few years ago. Because flight training was SO MUCH more economical in the US than Japan, JAL maintained a flight training facility in Napa to get their students up to speed in A36s and King Airs. Almost all (all) of the students were effectively unintelligible over the radio. It was as if they thought the faster and louder they spoke over the radio the better they would be understood. Don’t get me started about how many calls they missed or required repeated transmissions from ATC. It was painful for us on frequency- can’t imagine how difficult it was for the controllers (not to mention the onboard CFI and student). Since English is the universal language of aviation AND since JAL was sending them to the US for instruction, it would seem they should have to pass an English proficiency test BEFORE arriving in the US and joining our airspace. Thanks for the excellent analysis Mover.
All it takes is one moment. Keep an eye on the airspeed and remember how long it takes to get the needle increasing again, especially if you won't have height to point the nose down.
I have seen it stated in a few different places that letting the airspeed drop below a defined minimum required for manoeuvring is the cause of many accidents, and that it’s not something that gets enough attention in pilot training, especially in GA. If you ask airline pilots whether they train for stall avoidance or stall recovery, they invariably answer “avoidance” over “recovery”, and state how the minimum manoeuvring speed must not be broken. I can see why.
So sad. To be honest, I am surprised at how few accidents there are. As complex as these machines are and as many hours as pilots fly, it is a testament to the professionalism, focus, training, and skills of all involved in US military aviation. Rest their souls.
What you said about 18 seconds mishap time, compared to your 45 minute video reminds me of the movie "Sully" and the NTSB investigation of Sullenberger's Hudson River controlled water crash, when Tom Hanks says that the other pilots had time to read and practice the return to Laguardia or divert and turn to Teterboro, where Sullenberger had only 208 seconds from the time of the bird strike, to go through a dual engine failure checklist and make decisions that saved 155 souls, one being starting the APU almost immediately when it was 15th on the checklist. God rest these aviators souls. I love watching your videos on Mover Ruins Movies and unfortunately these AIP videos. Though I love to fly, the closest that Ive been to being behind the stick, was the ProPilot computer program simulator that I had back in the late 90's. Even in the ProPilot program, pulling the throttle to idle for 18 seconds, the Citation Jet that I would "fly", began to sink at at incredible rate, and that even took some time to regain smooth, level, controlled flight again. I just want to say, I worked A.G.E. for the Eagles at Luke, AZ, 87-88, so nothing against the Falcon / Viper, but I'm partial to the Eagle. When it come to trainers TALONS ALL THE WAY, SEXY LITTLE JETS. Safe flying and thank you, Mover, for your service.
man what a sad situation. being a simple SEL private pilot I didn't realize just how quickly you can get behind this aircraft. You are in one mindset, the airplane is in the next zip code. Such a tragedy. RIP.
Looked at the approach and it is a tough one. Hold, 158 radial inbound then DME arc, then intercept 133 radial then circle to land. That can task saturate a veteran pilot.
This was a very professional and evenhanded analysis of a tragic incident, and really showcased Movers class and demeanor. I would, however, add one other element of "swiss cheese holes", and that it cultural factors. This may come off to some as "insensitive, but that does not mean it isn't real. I have worked in international business for many years, and included in that is work with Japanese companies and co-workers. At times I find that Japanese colleagues can be very much focused on overall success of the mission, as well as making sure they do not dishonor their superiors with less-than-stellar performance. I am sure for this young student, the pressure and strain of his earlier struggles with both the technical side of the training as well as with his acclimation to English as a second language weighed very heavily upon him. This flight probably added to that with the complexity of its nature, and was most likely compounded by the challenges he apparently had during the flight with the ATC communications. I am reasonably certain that his concern over disappointing his instructor compounded an already stressful situation for him. How that effected his performance cannot be quantitatively determined, but should be added to the list of all of the other contributing factors mentioned both in the report and by Mover. At the same time, any instructor who has experience with pilots or student pilots from other countries may very well be aware of these cultural issues, and may in an instructional environment adjust their reaction accordingly. It is possible that this instructor, understanding the cultural pressures on the student, may have delayed or tempered his reaction to situations so as avoid exacerbating a fear of failure in the student. Completely understandable and acceptable in almost every other situation, but perhaps dangerous and contributory in this particular incident. Again, this is in no way a criticism of the Japanese cultural or this particular student. I have profound respect for that nation and its people. But my years of international travel and experience have taught me to ALWAYS consider the culture and customs of the country you travel to or of the people you interact with so that you can best understand their motivations and truly work towards the best outcomes of your combined goals. RIP to both pilot and instructor, and sincere condolences to their families.
As I listen to the description of events, I thought of how in dealing with some very intelligent and impressive Japanese technicians, I learned of there intense desire to succeed. The thought of not succeeding is unacceptable and may have influenced the student as well as how the IP dealt with him. Something that should be considered in the training of foreign pilots where our military leads the world.
IMO first tour IP's are seldom taught to overcompensate for their lack of experience by being on or near the controls at all times. The older pilots can sense a bad situation developing only because of many hours of IP-student interaction. Missing the throttle setting is so disturbing and the student's lack of prior training a black mark for the whole mission planning activity. It seems that nothing has changed in 50 years. Class 66B Reese AFB Kudos for a constructive video
UPT 1969 SHEPPARD AFB the T-38 a little bit more forgiving than the F-104G "STARFIGHTER" we were trained on later in LUKE,AFB,AZ was a great preparation for that assignement. a beauty to fly!!
Nobody wants to say it, but I'm thinking it. Sad ending. Comes down to this, the Trainer needed to be less polite and more aware of the situation and took over way before he did...he gave him several chances and it proved fatal. That student should not be a pilot and should not have progressed further and this would have stopped his existence in that jet. He proved ok in theory but not in practical which is a pilot's real time bread and butter. Sadly the Trainer is the escape goat. I'm a trainer and no matter what happens, a trainer is responsible. But putting that student in that plane in the 1st place is fatal. May they rest in peace
Mover. Thanks for your description of the T-38 crash and the accident report. Well done. From the mid seventies to the late eighties, I served as a T-38 line IP, Flight Commander, Flight Examiner, Operations Officer, and Commander of the 50th FTS at Columbus AFB. I was also a T-38 PIT instructor at Randolph Air Force Base, and an Air Training Command Inspector General Operations Inspector.
I say the above only to establish the fact that I know what I’m talking about. Who I am talking to are current instructors and pilots who fly the Talon.
1. There’s a reason the T-38 is known as the attrition machine. It’s hard to fly, and even harder to fly well. This was intentional, since it was meant to screen out people who couldn’t handle century series fighters like the F-104 and the F-105. The fact that we’re still flying a sixty-year-old design is another matter. If you don’t like it, write your representative in congress.
2. Some instructors are unwilling to “ride” the stick and throttles while the student is flying the machine. DO IT! If you’re good at it, the student won’t know it, and if students complain, they must have pretty sensitive hands. Maybe you can back off a little bit but know where the stick and throttles are at all times - no exceptions.
3. The weather at Columbus AFB is challenging, to say the least. As a result, the squadrons are always trying to shoehorn training events in anywhere they can. Don’t do it. If you get behind the timeline, so be it. Columbus has a long history of fatal accidents for exactly this reason.
4. Two fine young officers died honorably in this incident. Don’t let it go to waste - learn from it.
Excellent comments sir ! Thank you - voice of experience.
Sir : My point is that the T 38 is so critical at low speed and high AOA that weeding students off at this stage of training in a high performance jet is dangerous. Certain skills are required to qualify for a fighter jet: stress management, high workload tolerance, and assertiveness are, among spatial orientation, specific skills required for a future fighter pilot. Additionally, the USAF has flight simulators where they can teach IPs how to deal with this scenario without losing any airmen or aircraft. Finally, flying in high-density controlled airspace is incompatible with disorientation. If a highly capable international student has not yet overcome the language barrier, send him back home or design a special course for him/her in a less difficult airspace. A last point to raise is a question for you:
Don`t you find strange the IP`s lack of attention the last few seconds?
Final words for both brave aviators : God bless you and your families and friends .
@@astircalix4126 You make some good points. I'll only address this one: "weeding students off at this stage of training in a high performance jet is dangerous."
You're right, it is dangerous, and to the extent that it is possible, unnecessary danger should be avoided. Having said that, all military training for combat is by nature dangerous. In this case, the root cause of the accident was pilot error, not the airplane in question. This is no criticism of the pilots involved. It is simply a fact, and we must learn from it to avoid making the same mistake again.
@@michaelwelsh798 Thank you Sir for your kind answer!
Bob , you are correct. I was a 38 FAIP at Reese, 85-89. I want to know if this intl student was weak. 80% of them are. Only seasoned senior IPs should fly with these students. They are a constant threat to normal safe ops. If 38s are now for only fighter qual students, this one sounds like he should not have been in the program. I'm published in July 2000 Flying Safety. Cheers.
That was a really tough one Mover. A lot of small things conspired to overload these young men. Even though I have not flown the 38 since 1975 I was transported into that cockpit and feeling the stress. You are spot on about the 38, it is a basic unforgiving sled.
Old I last flew it in '73 but don't recall it being that difficult....but then I had a great IP who also was a 1Lt FAIP. Like Mover said, the plane talked to you, ie buffet. Loved doing closed patterns pulling it to light buffet. The T-38 made the F-4 seem easy to land.
Incredible how such an awful event tragically unites generations of pilots. Glad you made it, Sir. May our honored dead rest in peace. Whether in training or in war.
Got to 450msl/36degree bank/164kts/1400fpm sink and IDLE and like you I started getting nervous just reading.
Former Columbus AFB T-38 IP here, my respects to Lt. Ames' family. I saw that scenario many times with students that any delay on my part from taking control of the jet would have resulted in a difficult situation to say the least. High AOA and high sink rate close to the dirt will kill you in an instant.
Never let the student get us into a situation I couldn't get us out of...with a lot of fudge factor.
RIP Scot. Had the honor of him being one of my cadet instructors back in college before commissioning. An outstanding leader and person. Gone too soon.
Same. He was a senior when I was a freshman but he was a huge reason I stuck with it and made it to commission as a pilot. Damn good man
A great summing up. The worst thing about loss of SA is you so often don't know it's happening until something bites you in the ass. The best you can do is to know the situations when it's likely and be on guard. A tragic event.
Great overview - I was a T-38 IP at Sheppard - Wonderful aircraft - Makes the best pilots - But flight idle dirty is somewhere I would never let any one be - Recovery time is just too long...
So sad it developed so deep.
When I was moving to high performance/complex a/c, my instructor took me to Greensboro NC as I needed 10 in the a/c for insurance reasons. I found out in a BIG hurry how quickly I can become task saturated!!! We were instructed to land on the same runway as all the FedEx planes, "caution wake turbulence"... That blew my mind and between all the ATC language that I didn't understand and the new to me complex a/c things I had to do, I shut down the hearing part like you said and the instructor took the radios for me, (I don't even remember that part). Task saturation is REAL!!! And I found out I had an awful lot of learning left to do!!! Thanks Mover, tough one for sure...
As someone studying for their CFI I appreciate this factual and professional debrief. I hate to hear about fellow aviators having fatal misshaps, it's truly tragic. I do appreciate you doing these breakdowns though so the rest of us can hopefully not learn these lessons the hard way. Nickel on the grass and prayers for both of their families.
As one CFI to another… don’t take anything for granted when teaching your students. Check and double check everything… and if you’re not sure if somethings safe… then you already know. Good luck and don’t let anyone pressure you or your students into flying if it doesn’t ‘look right’. There’s plenty of time to get the experience safely
Thank you for the read through and commentary. As a civilian student pilot, prior military (non-aviator), I have watched several videos on this accident (and lots of others on RUclips). Your explanation as to how the air-frame responded with the inputs, weather, and possible mental conditions of the pilot and IP are amazing. As a GA student pilot, I totally see myself as the student pilot in this report.
-Looking at my current civilian training in a Cessna 172 and my super low time (11hrs), when the report noted "engines to idle" - my heart sank.
-When you used the phrase "helmet fire" - that's been me, going into the pattern. My instructor has always been there beside me to assist.
-When the report said the student over corrected - that's been me. In turns, adjusting speed, leveling off, rudder inputs, in it all. I've been there.
-When the report called out the instructor for not taking control sooner, I can see that being me. I can see that in my instructors.
-The task saturation and "helmet fire" are real. I'm putting this down again, because I've been there: Going into the pattern, speed, altitude, stay below the shelf, watch the adjoining airspace, listen to ATC, listen to other aircraft in the pattern, look for other aircraft, pitch, flaps, join the downwind, turn to base, flaps, turn to final, flaps, speed, ATC.
When you get task saturated, you can loose confidence in your abilities super fast. Training makes us better.
Your knowledge and compassion are outstanding. You bring an overview that is both illuminating and thoughtful. Thank you. RIP and respect to all who give their lives to keep us all safe.
Well put sir!
As a former student pilot in the T 38 and pilot in ADC listening to your description of this incident brings to mind a situation that I got into because I thought I was infallible. Top of my class, had an easy time in pilot training and a lights out night landing off a tactical pitch fighting a limiting crosswind, should have gone around . I landed and immediately went into serious vertigo. Shut down both engines on my B57E. Preparing to exit the side of the runway. I stopped and when my vision came back I was in the center of the runway. Whew!! Part of training in any aircraft should include teaching cockiness and flying don’t mix.
Good analysis. As a former USAF pilot, class 76-04, the T-38 was an amazing aircraft to fly, but...you never got slow and never kept the engines at idle for more than a few seconds, Such a sad story. Happy trails and tail winds to them....
Each mishap that ends in tragedy is terrible, but as a fellow aviator, I appreciate you taking the time to walk through these post-incident findings. The lessons learned are invaluable.
I work at Columbus Air Force Base.
Losing a couple of your own is never easy. Thank you very much for the respectful way you explained this.
You do a great job with all of your videos! Keep up the great work!
Your compassion and heart is very apparent and I respect that very much. Your effort to find the lesson in this is excellent. Also your humbleness.
Mover, as an IP in the F-4, I had reoccurring problems in communication with foreign pilots:
1. Understanding basic communications
2. After chastising for dangerous actions, basically shutting down and having a helmet freeze. I repeatedly had to take the aircraft after the students would "shut down" in flight. After a squadron meeting of IP's, this turned out to be a somewhat common reaction, and required additional training for all IP's.
Been waiting for this one, currently in T-38 phase at CAFB myself. Thanks for covering this C. W.
Circling Approaches require extra vigilance in any aircraft but especially in an aircraft such as the T-38. I also flew this aircraft in my USAF Pilot training (1968). At 850 AGL, there is no margin for error in the T-38 in airspeed or sink rate. You said it, it is an unforgiving aircraft especially at such a low altitude in a landing configuration (dirty). If the T-38 is stalled that close to the ground with its short wings, no amount of power from its engines can fly you out of that situation. Never go there !!!
Wish it had the late F-5E/F's leading edge extensions.
Question, if it's "an unforgiving aircraft" why is it being used in training? wouldn't they use an easier aircraft?
@@oskrm exactly what I’m thinking. The aircraft seems to be a big factor in a lot of these crashes. I get they have to have difficult aircraft to train for difficult aircraft, but is it not time for an upgrade?
At least the USAF has finally selected a T-38 replacement and it’s under construction now.
Worth noting that astronauts Bassett and See died in a T38A attempting a circling approach under similar circumstances in 1966. That plane does not seem to like circling approaches in IFR conditions, even if you're an elite test pilot.
As a former student of Scot’s, great video. He was a rockstar instructor. A nickel on the grass.
Its always a tragedy when training ends in a fatal accident. A friend of mine was killed in a training accident in the US Army several years ago, and my heart goes out to the Family and Friends of the crew
Something I find interesting is the fact that nowhere is it mentioned (unless I missed it) if this instructor was this student's primary instructor or how many times they had flown together. If the instructor had been aware of the tendencies and language problems it could have certainly affected how far he would allow him to go down the wrong path.
Sad tale. My dad was a T-38 IP, at Webb and at Columbus. One time he flew in the back seat with an international student on his SOLO cross country. Precautionary action. He found your discussion to be interesting, accurate, and compassionate.
This is always difficult to hear about but thank you for doing these videos as a knowledgeable guy with experience. Rest in peace to both young men and prayers to all impacted by this tragedy.
Tragic to have both these pilots to have their life end in this situation. God bless them both may they Rest In Peace. 🙏🙏🙏
Thank you for the respectful and professional analysis, Mover. As a native English speaker with some Japanese language abilities (as you pointed out…at zero speed, G, and altitude)…I know my ability to understand Japanese would drop to zero under similar conditions and probably well before that. Like the pilots in the mishap aircraft it seems that the training system was making corrections in response to student performance but, it eventually lost situational awareness and was unable to ultimately correct.
I am not a pilot but I play piano and take piano lessons, and what I've learned is that I'm a biological entity and what he called "helmet fires" is a real thing even for those of us who stay at 0 speed and 1 g, and 0 altitude above ground. What I can do when I am calm with no problem, I can no longer do when I am saturated, as the report calls it. Beyond saturation point there is a point I simply call "the melt", or "flooding". It seems to me that a lot of military early preparations including basic training, are intended to bring the candidate into a near flood state, and if possible, bring them into it, because working on your physiological and mental responses to extreme environments is part of the work for a soldier. For a military aviator, all that times ten.
One reason why many Japanese and many other ESL learners struggle to understand English speech is that in natural speech some words can be reduced so much that they completely unintelligible in isolation.
See ruclips.net/video/WxmEQsI_epM/видео.html
ESL learners who studied English by learning words in isolation often struggle to recognize them in natural speech. Add to that significant phonological differences between English and Japanese, and you realize that things start to fall apart even before you try to translate anything in your head.
I'm a native speaker of both English and Japanese (and a retired USAF NCO and now private pilot) and I can tell you, almost all Japanese pilot trainees miltiary or civilian are BARELY functional in English. More than once I've been sitting in the runup area and had to ask ground controller if I could switch a struggling student pilot to a diff frequency to ask he was having trouble with in his native language and advise him to cancel his flight because he's just not getting it. They're not pre-screening their candidates for language aptitude before they select them for pilot training.
@@SVSky Language aptitude under extreme task loading would be a very interesting kind of testing to do. Basically, a TOEFL administered while people are yelling at you, and fireworks are going off.
I’m retired Air Force (not a pilot). We had foreign students in both my BOC and PME. They all get a DLI course, but it’s minimal. They struggled with English, hung out with each other, were not billeted with us, and consequently got very little spoken English practice outside training hours. It was frustrating for us, but not life threatening. Huge respect for the IPs doing this.
Worth noting that astronauts Bassett and See died in a T38A attempting a circling approach under similar circumstances in 1966. That plane seems to severely punish inattentively-executed circling approaches in IFR conditions. If two elite test pilots can get caught out, I suppose it could happen to anybody, and clearly has again.
Believe they crashed into the McDonnell Douglas building that was building their Gemini capsule. Ironic and very sad. Ted Freeman, another Gemini era astronaut and I believe the first black astronaut, was also killed in a t38 but his was a bird strike.
@@dukeford8893 well the crash was a t38 and it was a bird strike
NASA´s accident (poor weather/ two T 38 A) different from the T-38C Mishap in Montgomery ( circling practice in VMC) . en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1966_NASA_T-38_crash#Investigation_and_aftermath
Very True. I Recently Read That Deke Slayton Stated In His Autobiography That See's Pilot Skills Were Lacking But They Were Scheduled To Fly Gemini In Three Weeks!
My grandfather owns a farm about five minutes from Columbus AFB, which is a pilot training base. Sometime in the 1980s a T-38 crashed on his farm and he was able to help the pilot cut himself down from a tree. Later, my father trained on T-38s at the same base. When my father and my uncle (who is also an AF pilot) heard that they were replacing the T-38, they said “It’s about time. Those things are so slow you almost stall at level flight, and besides that they have a turn radius the size of Texas!”
I spent 7 years flying 38's at CBM. I see they are still pressing the time line. Taking a weak student with no landing currency to a drop in with holding and circling in real weather and icing conditions on his first flight in 2 weeks...this would be enough to break my strongest students. Real shame.
Deaths in training are so heartbreaking. One of my test engineers died in water survival training at NAS Pensacola and that hurt so bad. I my self as a flight engineer have been so close to being this crew so many times. God speed Airman.
Thanks for the summary Mover.
The numbers called out in the report during the approach were chilling. The jet was too far gone so early.
Always appreciate your sharing of these reports.
Not a pilot here, flight line mech, but lost a T-38 at Vance AFB but my crew made it. Aircraft lost the canopy on climb out and the IP’s arm got hung up in the seat and the SP had to bring it in. SP did a great job all things considered. Smoked the brakes and blew a tire but she made it home. We had some great IP’s when I was there. Never really understood why we kept using such an old and unforgiving aircraft for training but that’s above my pay grade. Sorry to hear we lost this crew. Thanks for the review Mover. Always educational and professional.
Golly, 18 seconds without a power input on a 38 on finals with everything hanging out, that's scary. Such a sad business at times!!
I haven't flown the T-38 since 1983 but I remember it can be very unforgiving. Things happen very quickly in the landing pattern. If I remember circling approach speed is 175kts plus fuel, final approach speed 155kts plus fuel. Circling is a high risk maneuver in any aircraft, you have to continually monitor the weather, position with respect to the runway, aircraft performance, landing checks. But with the T-38's speed you need so much more maneuvering room (and higher Category D minimums I believe), it can be difficult to keep the runway in sight and complete the turn to final, especially since you are lower than the normal pattern altitude. I would rate actual circling in the T-38 after an instrument approach perhaps under a low ceiling as an emergency maneuver to be avoided if possible. Even training in good weather you have to be on top of things. You can get fixating on the runway and get too slow. Doubly hard for an instructor pilot who has to monitor the student while doing all this. Once you get in a low airspeed/low altitude/high sink situation it's too late and you may be out of the ejection envelope. This IP was very competent, and it happened to him. Sadly final turn accidents have happened many times in T-38's for a variety of reasons. From the T-38 "Dash 1" flight manual (I still have mine): " If a high sink rate condition is allowed to develop excessive altitude loss will occur and recovery may not be possible at traffic pattern altitudes". It's past time to send the T-38's to the boneyard, fortunately the replacement T-7A is on the way, which will be easier to fly.
One wonders, why don't they let the studnets do these circling approaches in the simulator before letting them try it in the actual plane. If they had bad flying weather, the students had all the time to hit the simulator while there was no flying.
I agree with others - great analysis and your compassion is very much appreciated. (There but for the grace of God go I.”) Your discussion brings back many memories despite the fact that it’s been almost half a century for me. (It’s like it was yesterday.) I had to smile when you started talking about “the elephants on the wings” - same terminology as back then. I’d never heard of a “helmet fire” but immediately knew what you meant by that too!
Class 73-01 Williams AFB, FAIP at Williams & RSU senior controller. (Then “rated supp” at WPAFB, AF Aero Propulsion Laboratory & T-39 part time, then Braniff (2 yrs), and NWA/Delta. Retired in 2010.) Air Force UPT was a great experience, and the training was a great foundation for the rest of my career.
Excellent video, Mover. Thanks for another great opportunity to learn and get better, which is really the point. My condolences to Lt Ames’ family and to the family of the JSDF officer who perished.
C.W.- you did a good job presenting the mishap report and giving a detail personal analysis of the accident. RIP the two young pilots who perished.
Those small wings, 60 degree flaps and at idle I can only imagine how fast this all happened especially with bank angle playing a factor.
Wow that was the first thing I thought of also - holy smokes ! At low altitude...
I found your channel this AM. Great job with this review. I'm a retired SMSgt maintainer and aviation enthusiast. I'm subscribed now to your channel. Having more birthdays is important - keep sharing so the learning can continue.
Training is never a given free pass…
As a military vet & career firefighter we tend to hesitate when we should be yelling out…
May God comfort their families & great explanation Mover!
God Bless us all!
Man, every time I view one of these analysis of mishaps and especially fatal mishaps I double down on my pre-flight planning and remind myself constantly to risk assess and err on the side of caution.
When pilots as good as this IP lose their lives it makes you humble and respect the potential dangers of flying
As always, thanks for keeping it professional by waiting for the final AIB report instead of speculating like a lot of other channels. You're doing the right thing.
"the T-38 is dangerous"
It has killed *astronauts*.
Very sad story. I've logged a lot of instructor and evaluator hours, and one of the things they always hammered into us at instructor school: NEVER let the student's limits exceed yours. Unfortunately we have to be reminded by the lessons of others. RIP to those two pilots.
Breaks my heart. God bless them and their families! You’ve mentioned before in your struck by lighting video when things just start to stack up against you flying in a situation that isn’t critical, don’t go up. Something to truly push for , really considering the warning signs, for ANYTHING in life. I feel so sad for both and their families.
CW, you may be a humble F-16 Lawn Dart pilot, but I appreciate these accident reports. They’re excellent.
Thank you for this thoughtful review. I pray it helps everyone learn and they are all safe in the future.
Rest in Peace to both pilots. Very sad but informative video Mover
I work next to Huntsville International, where T38's fly in and out all the time. Sad.Sad. Sad. I had no idea these things were difficult to fly. Prayers to the families invlolved
Love the break down videos Mover. I wish you didn’t have any accidents to break down but I know it will always happen.
This analysis is really interesting. It’s amazing how quickly things can go from good to unrecoverable. I never realized how slow the aircraft is to respond to adding power. I guess I had always imagined it was nearly instant.
There was an incident in late 60s of an A-7A in which the pilot moved the throttle back to idle with not much altitude, realized it, tried to correct, couldn't, ejected safely. The aircraft landed in a field, suffered some damage. The A-7 was heavily instrumented for flight testing, so we used it later as a test article. The throttle detent was significantly revised. The incident occurred between Dallas and Ft Worth.
Been looking forward to seeing your opinion on this Mover. Hope all is going good for you.
I can tell how hard these are for you to do but you are very good at breaking it down and explaining why we lost these fine aviators.
Thank you for this thorough, respectful accident analysis. If the pilots were landing into the sun, the glare at some angles can be almost totally blinding, & perhaps was a serious contributing factor in this tragic mishap.
Ugh! Heartbreaking! Thanks, Mover, for the thoughtful, helpful and heartfelt brief. T-38 FAIP here, 88-91. Circling approaches, just like wing landings were bread and butter T-38 flying at training bases. Just no room for error. IPs need to keep things tight and be much farther ahead of the student and the jet than this IP was. Seems like something was off with him that day, not just the break in flying tempo from the crazy polar vortex. Curious how much pre-flight approach briefing was accomplished before they even stepped to the jet considering they dropped the ball on divert fuel planning and missed the local sortie only limitation in the logbook of the spare jet. No mention in the report of briefing the approach and circling procedures before hitting the IAF going into Montgomery. Don’t know why they started the circle so early while they were still outside the step down altitude limit 2.5 miles from the MAP/approach end of Rwy 10. They were setup perfectly to continue to the MAP at the approach end of rwy10 then jink about 10 degrees right and fly 45 degrees off of 10-28, keeping the runway in sight, and getting perfect spacing for the base turn to 28. Instead they flew 90 degrees off for 45 seconds with too much airspeed and winds out of the north that messed up their downwind spacing causing the undershoot. They left the tacan final approach course in the HSI instead of dialing in the 28 localizer for situational awareness on the gauges. The IP let the student go too far with excessive bank angles, throttle control and unstable airspeed and decent rate. I wonder if all that HUD stuff distracts from basic pitch and power, aim point airspeed cross check. I assume Montgomery is pretty popular with the Columbus guys and this IP was familiar. As soon as he saw the bad spacing and the erratic controls by a marginal student the IP should have taken the jet and given a good demo. I never felt students learned anything from flailing. A deteriorating situation can easily be turned into a good teaching opportunity by a heads up IP. Plus, it’s practically a blank check with the foreign students, at least it used to be, so no grade book pressure to complete this one maneuver.
Seems like the takeaway about task saturation is that you can't assume the pilot next to you heard what you said, or hears the alarm you hear.
Thank you for the report. I greatly appreciate your doing these.
Very surprised they didn't catch the fact that all the other jets were going direct to TLH. When I was a flight commander in the T-37, always emphasized to my IPs to be conservative and get the best training when the weather allowed. Prayers for the crew and their families....
Great analysis - I can see how this would happen. One open question would be was this the first time the IP flew with this student? Sounds like he was giving him a bit longer leash than he should have. The other students rated the IP highly since he seemed to be more "hands off".
I'm currently in flight school (Navy side) and generally we do like instructors more that are hands off. Allows us to make our mistakes and learn from them rather then being micromanaged and not learning outside of someone else always having the controls (if they have the controls you don't and they have way more flight hours then we do). I can study a flight book all day long, but doesn't mean I can correctly implement what I'm learning.
That being said, their will always be a fine line between hands off vs hands on approach. If anything really jeopardizes lifes then yes the IP should take control. But coming in to land in a jet, we are talking about seconds where in this case the sink rate was so high already.
FYI, most incidences in pilot training commands actually aren't student to instructor relationships but rather instructor to instructor flying together.
Mover thank you for doing this video! Looking through all of the USAF fam writing comments below shows to why you all are the absolute best at what you do!! Thank you all for keeping our skies and country safe! Truly!
My younger brother was part of the 2021 SUPT program in Columbus AFB during the period of this accident as an international student from Nigeria, there were two Japanese students in their program at the time, one was involved in this sad incident. I recall my brother telling me about this incident.
Unfortunately my brother also passed away in a plane crash while doing a training exercise for an airshow back in Nigeria this year in April. His accident happened alongside his colleague who also did the SUPT as an international student at Laughlin AFB.
I vividly recall his narrations of how grueling the SUPT program was, especially the T38 phase.
Flew as a T-38 IP from 68-72 where in addition to USAF students, we had Norwegian, Jordanian and Iranian students. The Arabic students had significant language and cultural issues (some of these Middle Eastern students had never flown until they flew commercially to the US and a few never even drove cars before they came here). The Norwegian spoke English well and had previous flight experience as well. The language issue, as you noted, was a huge drawback for these students.
As an IP, one had to learn early to avoid letting your student go too far. You wanted him to learn but the danger situation was always there so inexperienced IPs had to be cautious. In addition to teaching the student to fly, your job was to be God and to save both your lives.
CAFB ‘85-‘88 as IG BEET Deputy Chief for RP & Chief Medical Evaluator. Ran a couple of MAREs one of which was similar to this mishap. So sorry to hear of this mishap. Thoughts and prayers out to families. Thanks for such a great review.
Tragic. Thank you for the dispassionate yet kind review.
Mover, great analysis, tough subject, I'm feeling the pain of the families. Tragic, to say the least. My heart goes out to them. Thanks for going there. What poked me in the eye was the nine days off. During our 1980 deployment on SARATOGA/CVW3 to the Med (a, 'Love Boat cruise' to be honest...), CAPT Flatley did something that I learned a lot from. We would pull into Naples (for example) for two weeks. No flying. OMG. So, first day back out at sea, he would just have the airwing launch, stay dirty and simply enter the pattern via a left downwind. We would do five touch and go's on the ship and then put the hook down and full stop. These are day carrier landings, so, they are not exactly Gerber baby food (for the general pilot population) but they were a chance for all of us to, "...get back in the saddle..." To wit, most deployments (combat or not) would lose at least one aviator on the average. That cruise, we didn't lose a soul! I am eternally thankful to him. By the way, this is the same LT Flatley that landed a C-130 on the deck of the FORRESTAL just to see if it could be done. He was successful. Amazing gent and pilot! There are YT videos of that to enjoy.
Ramm I attacked the Saratoga in the Med during an exercise around the '77 time frame. In the mid '80's in the same exercise an F-14 guy from the same carrier shot down one of our RF-4C's.
I was wondering sir, would you want to be an instructor pilot? In your videos you come across as someone who can teach very well.
I believe he is currently an instructor pilot in the T-38A. Someone correct me if I’m wrong but I believe that’s correct. I do know he is flying the T-38 currently tho
@@1982MCI yeah hw ia flying that model, but to simulate enemy taxtics as a redair i believe. Not sure though, only mover can tell 🙂
This is why I could never be a pilot. I can sometimes demonstrate an appalling lack of attention to detail that amazes even myself.
I would love to have you on my crew because you know this about yourself.
"It's not an easy Jet to fly"
Which seems a bit counterproductive when you make it a TRAINER; don't you think?
When it first came out in the 60s, it replicated the century series fighters. It's also not a primary trainer. It's an advanced trainer for people going to fighters (They've already flown T-6s before this).
Not all training is designed to be easy. The 38 is certainly not an easy jet to fly, and it requires full attention and skill at every moment. That is its purpose.
@@CWLemoine did they retire the flying dog whistle?
Very sad. Thank you for putting the report in perspective.
Working on and flying the new VR T-38C sims that the USAF is now using has really given me an appreciation for the challenge of flying this jet. Not even the sim is easy even though I know the jet and systems like the back of my hand as a developer on it.
A recent crash of a twin Cessna was an example of SA confusion at the point that a pilot seemed to be stumped when ATC cleared him for a CA, too. You could hear it in his voice and his failure to comply with any ATC instructions. Stalls trying to position an aircraft, as you know.... have taken the lives of all kinds of pilots in all types of planes. This was one interesting example of that monster. A final sad salute to them both. And, a heartfelt prayer for their families.
Sad to hear any deaths in the military, From a pilot, to a grunt on the ground, to a sailor at sea
Why was a First Assignment Instructor Pilot (FAIP) assigned to a struggling foreign student with English skills so bad he literally needed his IP to be his radio operator?
Why was a more senior (or Japanese language trained) IP not assigned instead in an effort to mitigate some of the "high risk" they knew was involved?
If no instructor could be found that would sufficiently reduce the SP's risk factors, why was he not politely grounded and sent back to Japan?
Why did all the other IP/SP pairs run off normally on their missions and leave these two aviators (both junior in their roles) to struggle together on a badly-planned mission until a disaster occurred?
I don't like seeing this. It makes me wonder about the unspoken human factors at that unit. It makes me say "hmm".
There's a very serious cultural angle that I am sure the command level is probably aware of: If you send him back to Japan with a failing grade there is a HIGH probablity he will commit suicide before he leaves US soil.
@@SVSky Why would they accept such a candidate? People fail demanding courses all the time. With such a diseased mindset as you describe, Abe Lincoln would have shot himself 12 times over. I doubt the JSF has professionals with such a medieval mindset these days.
If you're not hacking it and you refuse to fail, the only alternative is catastrophe or fraud. Either option is grossly dishonorable when you're in an airplane.
@@SVSky Honestly, my suspicion is that the nugget instructor got put with the low-performing ESL guy because the decision was made at command level that he was going to be a "boulder student" - an inanimate and unhelpful object that must be pushed through the course thru brute strength from multiple people, then dropped as quickly as possible (in this case, back in Japan).
While confident they could pull it off, having to nursemaid a mediocre pilot with minimal English skills was an intensive and onerous task that the more senior IPs tried to avoid at every opportunity, especially since he was going to "pass" anyway and get shipped back to Japan regardless and there was no sense denying their more advanced instructor experience to SP's with actual potential to learn and excel.
Keep in mind, this guy was so non-fluent that he needed his IP to do all his radio traffic for him "for the safety of the flight". That would simply never be tolerated for anything except deliberate diplomatic reasons because it's so ridiculous.
Flying with foreign students who struggle with ATC communications (keep in mind speaking through an oxygen mask over radio) is normal at USAF pilot training bases. USAF trains, Turkish, Italian, Japanese, Malaysia, Saudi, Lebanese, Iraqi, Afghani (used to), Nigerian, Polish, among others. Comm is always an issue.
@@chrisvandecar4676 Seems it might be a bigger issue now, eh???
My next door neighbor was an airforce IP pilot and check pilot in the T-38. We were talking and he told me the T-38 was the best aviation filter available to training instructors. The tendency of the T-38 to lawn dart on the base to final turn was notorious. Students had a tendency to allow the jet to get slow and the outcome was inevitable, either abort your final approach or become one with the dirt. He showed me pictures of a crater of two of his students who were on their final check flight, got slow at the turn and they went straight into the ground. Wasn’t a very big crater….
SAD to listen to this. My dad got his airmans certificate from the CAA after WW II on the GI Bill. One student killed on solo stunting over family farm. Decades later he had to take control of a Cessna 187 while heading west on a hunting trip with no current medical because the pilot in command had the plane in a spin and did not realize it. My dad pulled them out a 500 feet near Minot ND in lowering weather conditions not having flown solo since his student days as he got the Certificate just to prove a one eyed pilot could pass the exams to open the door for others to follow. Keep up the good reporting.
A friend of mine from high school, Captain Paul "Stuck" Barbour, was killed in a T-38 crash on November 20th, 2017 about 14 miles outside of Laughlin AFB, Texas. I have heard that he was unable to eject because his seat wasn't armed. It's said he and the instructor pilot who was requalifying him were talking while they were going through the preflight checklist and they missed it. The instructor was somehow able to arm his seat but Paul was trapped. He was a great guy and is deeply missed. Every Thanksgiving I think about him and always will.
This is so very sad to hear, Salutes to the aviators lost in this incident. 68-8099, I knew this particular airframe extremely well back in the 1980s as the crew chief.
thanks Mover, fair&tough.No disrespect. RIP to the crew, let us all learn from this
I joined a friend, a retired Lt. Col. giving a check ride in a Bell 407 to a Japanese student pilot. At the end of the test, my friend failed him due to poor communication abilities (specifically inability to communicate in clear English). The student pilot flew just fine, however.
I dont hear much about CAB much anymore since I moved to Florida but I loved going to the airshows there as a kid. I think I have some signed pics from the T-birds when they were flying T-38's in the late 70's. Good times.
Outstanding video. I was Class 97-14 at CAFB.
Wow, this is a very harsh situation. I completely agree with your assessment. I can't imagine how hard it would be for me to go to Japan and try to train in an unfamiliar aircraft while ATC and my IP are speaking Japanese. However this situation does show how dedicated the SP was and how hard he had to work to complete this entire exercise. All problems aside the fact is that flying military aircraft and the training that goes with this job is extremely dangerous and anyone who gets in the cockpit knows this fact and accepts the consequences. As an American I do feel bad when a member of one of our closest allies dies in a training exercise. Also I do not in any way feel this reflects on the Japanese Defense Forces. It just goes with the territory and I hope this accident does not reflect poorly on us in the eyes of our Japanese friends/allies. I do think we should train as much as possible with our allies in the Pacific regions given the belligerent attitude of the Chinese military and the CCP. To all of you awesome people in our military I can't thank you enough for all you do. God bless you all. 🇺🇸🇯🇵
It was an eerie night when they burned those pianos. Dark clouds and storms lingered about the base all afternoon, and into the evening at CAFB.
Is that not the point of instrument training?
@@WALTERBROADDUS They burn the pianos as a memorial to fallen aviators
@@jakesimpson6365 Who has a piano to burn?🎹🔥😏 At any rate, I was speaking about all weather Flying.
@@WALTERBROADDUS I think you missed the point. He was referring to the weather at the memorial - not during the incident.
@@Skylyned I was.
I put in a lot of GA hours in the Bay area/ Central Valley a few years ago.
Because flight training was SO MUCH more economical in the US than Japan, JAL maintained a flight training facility in Napa to get their students up to speed in A36s and King Airs.
Almost all (all) of the students were effectively unintelligible over the radio.
It was as if they thought the faster and louder they spoke over the radio the better they would be understood. Don’t get me started about how many calls they missed or required repeated transmissions from ATC. It was painful for us on frequency- can’t imagine how difficult it was for the controllers (not to mention the onboard CFI and student).
Since English is the universal language of aviation AND since JAL was sending them to the US for instruction, it would seem they should have to pass an English proficiency test BEFORE arriving in the US and joining our airspace.
Thanks for the excellent analysis Mover.
RIP to these young aviators. Nickel on the grass
Thanks for doing this one Mover! We can all learn some serious lessons from this accident. 18 seconds!
I worked with Scot everyday at CAFB... outstanding young man and very missed...
All it takes is one moment. Keep an eye on the airspeed and remember how long it takes to get the needle increasing again, especially if you won't have height to point the nose down.
I have seen it stated in a few different places that letting the airspeed drop below a defined minimum required for manoeuvring is the cause of many accidents, and that it’s not something that gets enough attention in pilot training, especially in GA. If you ask airline pilots whether they train for stall avoidance or stall recovery, they invariably answer “avoidance” over “recovery”, and state how the minimum manoeuvring speed must not be broken. I can see why.
So sad. To be honest, I am surprised at how few accidents there are. As complex as these machines are and as many hours as pilots fly, it is a testament to the professionalism, focus, training, and skills of all involved in US military aviation. Rest their souls.
What you said about 18 seconds mishap time, compared to your 45 minute video reminds me of the movie "Sully" and the NTSB investigation of Sullenberger's Hudson River controlled water crash, when Tom Hanks says that the other pilots had time to read and practice the return to Laguardia or divert and turn to Teterboro, where Sullenberger had only 208 seconds from the time of the bird strike, to go through a dual engine failure checklist and make decisions that saved 155 souls, one being starting the APU almost immediately when it was 15th on the checklist.
God rest these aviators souls.
I love watching your videos on Mover Ruins Movies and unfortunately these AIP videos. Though I love to fly, the closest that Ive been to being behind the stick, was the ProPilot computer program simulator that I had back in the late 90's. Even in the ProPilot program, pulling the throttle to idle for 18 seconds, the Citation Jet that I would "fly", began to sink at at incredible rate, and that even took some time to regain smooth, level, controlled flight again.
I just want to say, I worked A.G.E. for the Eagles at Luke, AZ, 87-88, so nothing against the Falcon / Viper, but I'm partial to the Eagle.
When it come to trainers
TALONS ALL THE WAY, SEXY LITTLE JETS.
Safe flying and thank you, Mover, for your service.
man what a sad situation. being a simple SEL private pilot I didn't realize just how quickly you can get behind this aircraft. You are in one mindset, the airplane is in the next zip code. Such a tragedy. RIP.
Looked at the approach and it is a tough one. Hold, 158 radial inbound then DME arc, then intercept 133 radial then circle to land. That can task saturate a veteran pilot.
This was a very professional and evenhanded analysis of a tragic incident, and really showcased Movers class and demeanor. I would, however, add one other element of "swiss cheese holes", and that it cultural factors.
This may come off to some as "insensitive, but that does not mean it isn't real. I have worked in international business for many years, and included in that is work with Japanese companies and co-workers. At times I find that Japanese colleagues can be very much focused on overall success of the mission, as well as making sure they do not dishonor their superiors with less-than-stellar performance. I am sure for this young student, the pressure and strain of his earlier struggles with both the technical side of the training as well as with his acclimation to English as a second language weighed very heavily upon him. This flight probably added to that with the complexity of its nature, and was most likely compounded by the challenges he apparently had during the flight with the ATC communications. I am reasonably certain that his concern over disappointing his instructor compounded an already stressful situation for him. How that effected his performance cannot be quantitatively determined, but should be added to the list of all of the other contributing factors mentioned both in the report and by Mover. At the same time, any instructor who has experience with pilots or student pilots from other countries may very well be aware of these cultural issues, and may in an instructional environment adjust their reaction accordingly. It is possible that this instructor, understanding the cultural pressures on the student, may have delayed or tempered his reaction to situations so as avoid exacerbating a fear of failure in the student. Completely understandable and acceptable in almost every other situation, but perhaps dangerous and contributory in this particular incident.
Again, this is in no way a criticism of the Japanese cultural or this particular student. I have profound respect for that nation and its people. But my years of international travel and experience have taught me to ALWAYS consider the culture and customs of the country you travel to or of the people you interact with so that you can best understand their motivations and truly work towards the best outcomes of your combined goals. RIP to both pilot and instructor, and sincere condolences to their families.
As I listen to the description of events, I thought of how in dealing with some very intelligent and impressive Japanese technicians, I learned of there intense desire to succeed. The thought of not succeeding is unacceptable and may have influenced the student as well as how the IP dealt with him. Something that should be considered in the training of foreign pilots where our military leads the world.
Thank you for the analysis, Mover. My thoughts go out to the families of the airmen.
Great summary. All aircraft crashes are a series of a chain of events. To prevent the crash, you have to break that chain.
IMO first tour IP's are seldom taught to overcompensate for their lack of experience by being on or near the controls at all times. The older pilots can sense a bad situation developing only because of many hours of IP-student interaction. Missing the throttle setting is so disturbing and the student's lack of prior training a black mark for the whole mission planning activity. It seems that nothing has changed in 50 years. Class 66B Reese AFB Kudos for a constructive video
UPT 1969 SHEPPARD AFB the T-38 a little bit more forgiving than the F-104G "STARFIGHTER" we were trained on later in LUKE,AFB,AZ was a great preparation for that assignement. a beauty to fly!!
Great words and explanation, rest in peace to both good souls ✨✨
Nobody wants to say it, but I'm thinking it. Sad ending. Comes down to this, the Trainer needed to be less polite and more aware of the situation and took over way before he did...he gave him several chances and it proved fatal. That student should not be a pilot and should not have progressed further and this would have stopped his existence in that jet.
He proved ok in theory but not in practical which is a pilot's real time bread and butter.
Sadly the Trainer is the escape goat. I'm a trainer and no matter what happens, a trainer is responsible. But putting that student in that plane in the 1st place is fatal. May they rest in peace