Dual Destinies Phoenix is Weird
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- Опубликовано: 29 июн 2022
- Apollo Justice was an interesting turn for the character of Phoenix Wright. He was entirely different in that game, and Shu Takumi left the character in a good place for Yamazaki to build off of. But… he didn’t.
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Well, I don't see any problem with Nick being too cool. He is the oldest (but the judge, of course) and the most experienced one in this courtroom.
The classic trilogy Phoenix was just a rookie, but the times have changed.
Why is he too quick coming back to confidence? It's simple. He isn't. Don't forget his first trial in these 8 years was orca trial, not this one.
Sorry if I get something wrong.
I like to assume Nick just randomly objected when he opened the door and hoped he jumped in a good time or was waiting with his ear on the door until he found a good moment
ok that is hilarious and i am stealing that headcanon
The image of Nick with his ear on the door, just waiting for the right moment to step in, is just hilarious XD
Trilogy Nick definitely would do that
@@shytendeakatamanoir9740 He just copied Gumshoe's sense of timing
And then it turns out to be the end of 3-4
It's weird because Wright was written well when you're not playing as him. You feel like you're watching Hobo nick recovering from his slump and being a respectful but still mature mentor, but whenever you play as him, especially in the trials, he immediately reverts and brags about how much he bluffs despite the fact that most of the time, prosecutors only say he's bluffing because they're insecure
Yeah, I actually think he may not have even bluffed a single time during the first game. (Need to rewatch JFA and T&T to see how often he actually bluffs during those.)
@@magicdog9523 I think he may have bluffed in turnabout goodbyes and the last case of JFA, but that was only due to being incredibly desperate (and also to keep Maya safe in jfa). In DD, he purposefully bluffs any time he can, and that just isn't accurate. It's like the writers only heard about phonies Wright from the prosecutors he fought off against
@@magicdog9523 does "what if the bullet hit the murderer" count?
@@magicdog9523bluffing is mainly a thing for the players sake. Some players will figure out parts of the mystery before they are revealed and some won't, so the bluffing allows you to imagine that phoenix knows just as much (or little) as you do.
@Wince_Media In T&T case 3, Phoenix told Tigre that the small bottle is actually potassium cyanide when everybody else knew is ear medicine. It was clearly a bluff to extract information from him
“Phoenix is on the phone with his wife or something idk”
Phoenix: *Is on the phone with Edgeworth*
YESSS
Same thing, honestly
He was right
What’s the difference?
A lot of the ideas in Dual Destinies come from one off lines in Apollo Justice. Phoenix says he might retake the bar exam in AJ. The writers decide alright let's make him a lawyer again. There's a line in AJ where it's said that the law is seeing some dark times or something to that extent. This one line lead to the whole Dark Age of the Law plotline. DD gets all its ideas from AJ but doesn't develop on any of them in an interesting or realistic way.
Looking at Phoenix, he's become a lawyer again but lost his persona from AJ in a short period of time which doesn't make a lot of sense. Interestingly enough, you can see a bit of that Hobo Phoenix personality in the Monstrous Turnabout which does take place before Turnabout Countdown but it's still way too fast of a transition. By the time we play as him in Turnabout Countdown, he's just a completely different to how he was portrayed in AJ making his character feel weird.
I'll admit I found the Dark Age stuff really interesting even if it wasn't too in depth barring like 5-3 and Edgeworth's purge of the corrupt in the prosecutor's office
Assuming we get a 7th entry it'd be neat getting something like a Prosecutor who was shaped by the shift over those years (such as them being hellbent on justice to overcorrect the spreading corruption they once witnessed)
@@OriginalGameteer Simon was supposed to be a big part of the Dark Age of the Law being a thing, a prosecutor who was convicted of murder, and on death row, still being allowed to prosecute. May have failed to illustrate it but I think we came out of it alright. Blackquill is still a pretty cool character.
I have said my piece about Phoenix in my comment for the video, but I wanna go into my feelings on how Apollo Justice ties to Duel Destinies. In that game we basically saw follies in multiple parts of the Justice System, one of the best Defense Attorneys practicing, gets disbarred on suspicion of forging evidence, another Defense Attorney who committed murder and did who knows what to win cases, including forging evidence, which he was proven to have done, among other things, a Detective, who was also smuggling major contraband, for a Chief Justice of all things, (info taken from the AA Wiki, don't remember that from the case myself), meanwhile AAI 1 and 2 had all kinds of law officials breakings laws, some even in the pursuit of Justice. Everything that came out, up to Dual Destinies sets up the Dark Age of the Law, and I think that one game wasn't enough to finally round up that set up. AA6 really should have been another Dark Age clean up, but I am not dissatisfied with what Spirit of Justice was.
nah the dark age stuff was legit. it was also all over AAI2
they basically throw out anything that was actually in progress and instead used one off lines as an excuse to do something completely different
10:14 _"Klavier's an afterthought, sadly, I love that guy."_
Dude same. I always feel like he's underrated and at the same time he's not. Nobody ever really talks about him but then again he also doesn't really do much.
I just think he's neat.
Nah he's not underrated at all, most people actually like him from what I've read online, especially because he's hot and cool looking (which is easy to admit ngl)
However, most people don't *love* him because he's always actively helping Apollo so much that he just isn't as fun to face off against compared to Godot, either of the Karmas, Edgeworth, or even Payne. He is not satifying at all to beat.
Additionally, he is also just so comparativey boring in all other aspects because he is so morally straight and humble while often being regarded and treated as perfect and succesful.
The only shred of interesting character he has is that in AA4, it's only implied that he had a sneaking suspicion of his brother and a little guilt built up about how his case with Phoenix was set up. Through all that, he never once faltered in his resolve to the truth, even against his brother.
@@monke12354 disagree. Klavier had quite a few interesting subtleties in the way he was written in AJ. The issue is just that since AJ never got a proper follow-up, those subtleties remain as just hints that will never be expanded upon.
I'm suprised you didn't bring up the aquarium case, the DLC. Timeline-wise it takes place before the first case of DD. It is the first case Pheonix defends(officially anyway) since he got his badge taken away.
You're right! I think that case would make more sense to be debated here. However it is true the bomb case as the first way the developers chose how to show Wright the fans, so to speak. The first presentation since years ago.
In fact the first case is actually one of the last cases in the DD timeline. Look at 2, 3 and the DLC and imo there’s a lot more parallels with how he was in AA4. The time skipping is weird and explained poorly but when taken into account it does make things more fluid than the games presentation seems to be on the surface
Without a doubt, Phoenix's best moments are when he's acting as a mentor figure to Apollo, and it should've stayed that way.
In my opinion, the main issue really with Phoenix in the 3DS games is how... disconnected he is from the characters of the overarching plots. Though you could argue his character took a really big face turn heel in AJ, his overall involvement with the a lot of the plot made sense and I think you end up a bit more invested in the character, even if it wasn't the Phoenix we knew and loved. Even with the writing flaws of DD and SoJ, I think you could argue that Athena and Apollo are just much more likeable and developed characters in those games compared to Phoenix simply because of their involvement with events that happen throughout them. Unfortunately, it does really feel like they shoehorned in Phoenix because he was the recognizable character, and Capcom probably took notes from AJ in the wrong way when they tried to do something different.
Phoenix was shoehorned into Apollo Justice too. IIRC, the story of AA4 was originally concieved without having Phoenix in it (his story was meant to be finished with the trilogy), but Capcom demanded Phoenix from Takumi or they'd find someone who would have Phoenix in the game. And clearly, Shu Takumi isn't that interested in working on the mainl canon anymore under Capcom's current constraints, hence him working on spin-offs, anime, and Monster Hunter instead.
@@TeknanamWell as long as we can get more spin-offs from him like The Great Ace Attorney, my favourite AA games, then I couldn't care less about the main canon personally lol
@@Teknanam He wasnt shoehorned into apollo justice. not being originally planned doesnt mean he was shoehorned
@@aronia210
Well how do you define being shoehorned? Because I'd call being forcibly added into a plot that wasn't originally for them and derailing everything until it became about the inserted character and his story a case of shoehorning.
Truth be told though, I doubt either of us will agree on anything.
Bold of you to assume that phoenix heard what payne was saying and didn't just blurt out objection walking in without paying a 2nd thought
One thing that I'd like to point out is that Phoenix in Apollo Justice was investigating the whole Gramarye case for 7 years. We literally see him do it from the moment he loses his badge. He investigates the magicians, the forgery artist, the Gramaryes, everyone.
So when 7 years later Zak Gramarye reappears under the Shadi Smith moniker, he is ready for shit to hit the fan. He is more prepared at that point than Apollo, Klavier, and Kristoph combined. He has all behind the scenes knowledge of the case. It's why he is so confident during the game, because he has the knowledge nobody else does. If you improve on only one thing for 7 years straight, you're bound to be better than everyone else.
In comparison, Phoenix in DD is once again taking on cases that he knows nothing about. So he's somewhat back to his old self. Though I do agree the change is a little jarring. And I definitely think that Phoenix should've kept some of his "Hobo traits", like using underhanded tactics, or acting all smug in front of the prosecution (which would've made him stand-out from his subordinates).
In a perfect world, we would've gotten an experienced, jaded, lawyer Phoenix, who no longer has the rose-tinted view of his clients that he once had because of his experiences. He plays dirty when he needs to but doesn't straight-up go into "illegal" territory. Apollo would be like Trilogy Phoenix, someone who is somewhat experienced but still learning. And Athena would be like the Rookie Phoenix.
Yeahhh my biggest grip with DD and SoJ is how Playing as Phoenix Wright feels like you're playing as a complete rookie still- I can't see him as a mentor to Athena or Apollo when he acts the same and constantly is caught off guard.
Don't even get me started on the way they completely reverted Miles' character in the DLC case for spirit of justice, that was actually disgusting as well.
Yes after AA: Trials and Tribulations I expect Phoenix to have confidence and be a legendary lawyer. So him acting like that is in the character, if for example Athena or Apollo would act like that all confident and with no flaws I would call it BS but Phoenix had many years of experience as a lawyer and had many troubles he needed to face up until Dual Destinies.
I agree. Super DD Nick makes perfect sense as the more adult, complete version of his twenty year old self.
@@ThePrimeMinisterOfTheBlock Yes exactly!
I agree with the experience point but with experience he also got good at doing tricks and underhanded tactics in law during AJ especially after being around a bunch of gramaryes including raising trucy in that 7 year timeframe.
I think him going back to goody two shoes mentor doesnt any make sense no matter how many times apollo would punch him and scream with his chords of steel off screen in a year.
Quite frankly everything following Trials and Tribulations needs to be retconned out of existence
@@ThePrimeMinisterOfTheBlock hopefully seven does that because yamazaki the fraud is now gone
Also on topic I think Apollo justices bad reception kinda forced the devs to change phoenix to his well liked self, since it would be quite difficult to fully commit to hobo phoenix without showing a shitload of backstory to show how he became his weird self in aj since many people including myself complained about too much off screen development where you just have to assume what happened, so I can't be too harsh on the devs here
All characters in AA:AJ acted out of character and got the character assassination treatment. I hate AJ for many reasons and character assassination is a huge reason as well as most cases making 0 ZERO sense logically speaking and case 3 is just the best example of how braindead the devs were when they created AA:AJ.
@@strohhuttv8848 apollo justice would've worked better if the time gap wasn't 7 years but much closer to Phoenix's disbarrement so we could see how he's coping with it and actually develope into his different self then slowly realize that this isn't the path he wants to take which logically would lead to dual destinies, also characters in Aj acted out if character even gumshoe in the flashback was different from his usual self
@@literallyvergil1686 Yeah, maybe it would work better. My problem with Phoenix getting disbarred, is that we see multiple times prosecutors doing illegal tactics to win a case and the judge did nothing, you want a example? Manfred Von Karma and his daughter Franciska told witnesses beforehand to lie and keep important informations for themselves, that's 100% illegal probably in all countries around the world. On top of that Phoenix did show "false evidence" before Apollo Justice, remember Tigre case in Trial and Tribulations case 3 when Phoenix lied in front of everyone that the bottle contained poison and that it was PROVEN that it was a bottle containing the poison, so the whole AA:AJ plot makes no sense because in one hand Phoenix, Edgeworth, Franciska, Manfred, all witnesses ever... Are allowed to do illegal actions without any consequences, while in AJ Phoenix did one small mistake and got disbarred.
@@strohhuttv8848 that is true, since investigation 2 proves that von karma literally blackmailed a witness and only got a penalty phoenix getting disbarred for mistake when franzisca was proven to cheat in two cases and is considered a respected Interpol agent, and Edgeworth mistakenly showed falsified and forged evidence in sl9 just like phoenix and got a slap on the back is bullshit
@@literallyvergil1686 Exactly my point! I didn't even think above those points from Investigations 2 but you are right. Well whatever I don't think Shu Takumi was that invested in AA after the Trilogy, he even said he doesn't want to bring back Phoenix, he said that Phoenix character was done, Capcom basically forced Shu Takumi to include Phoenix and you can see it. I think Apollo Justice would be a much better game if it was in a universe where Phoenix never existed, somthing like The Great Ace Attorney.
Phoenix just has a Payne sense whenever a Payne is gonna get anywhere he shows up and objects
To be fair to Yamazaki; It wasn't his call to bring Phoenix back in DD, it was higher-ups at Capcom. Yamazaki didn't have as much creative freedom directing when directing DD and SOJ as Shu Takumi had directing his games.
If Yamazaki didn't really want to bring back phoenix that makes sense since he's not in the majority of the game until the final case
Which is ironically the exact same thing that happened with Takumi himself. He didn't want Phoenix in AJ, but corperate demanded it. Credit to him tho, he went all "Screw it, you want the Phoenix game for sales, you get the Phoenix game for sales" and Phoenix is the one part of the story that does not feel shoehorned. Japanese audiences hated the game in the end tho, which is why these later games backpaddled hard.
I have an answer to your question in case 1: I imagine he didn’t hear what Payne said and just wanted to shout “OBJECTION!” the second he entered the room no matter what was happening
My headcanon is that he did hear Payne, but couldn't make out what he said, but because everything Payne says is objectionable, he just instinctively shouted "Objection".
@@ramuki9427 Phoenix when Payne does basically anything: Objection! That was.. objectionable!
"I find the defendant not gui-"
"Objection! How can you say the defendant is guilty when all this evidence proves otherwise"
Phoenix opening the doors to say objection is like the Kool-aid man saying OH YEAHH
I think it's interesting to compare Nick's treatment with Ema Skye. Ema also has a dramatic change between her original appearance and Apollo Justice. And in SoJ, she's also basically an evolution of her original appearance.
But I feel it makes more sense here.
Yeah we saw glimpses of her peppy self when science and forensics was mentioned in AJ so it feels more like that version of herself is still there underneath the bitterness that she has about being a detective. Phoenix on the other hand...the disbarment was so integral to his character that I don’t understand how it took 5 seconds to revert back to a optimistic lawful good character.
Yeah, it is weird that we don't see by ourselves how Phoenix gradually leaves his hobo persona, but I would argue that
1- At least part of the hobo personality was just another elaborate bluff on his part, since he didn't want Kristoph to ever think that he was actually preparing for revenge at any point
2- He's still a manipulator in DD, only this time he's manipulating Athena to play a part in his and Edgeworth's plan to prove Simon's innocence. Like, he could have shared the plan with his apprentices at any given point, but he never did, and that's part of why that whole Cosmic Turnabout fiasco ends up happening in the first place - he never fully trusted Athena and Apollo to give them the whole information they deserved to have
3- Some characters (not enough, I admit) still see him as a cheater and a liar, including Apollo. Sadly the game glosses by that kinda fast and doesn't spend enough time building on that. I felt like case 5-3 was supposed to be our hint on that with the constant "seeking the truth versus ends justifies the means" being hammered on our heads, but I'll admit that it was not enough of a build up. Still, I can see the theme was there.
So as was already mentioned, Phoenix was not suposed to be featured in Apollo Justice Ace Attorney, but was gramped in due to executive medling. My question therefore is: if the execs didn't meddle, how much would the sequel to Apollo Justice Ace Attorney change?
If they hadn't ruined Phoenix in AJ I would have automatically like that game more, though the cases were also really boring so that would have to be fixed too.
It likely would've been like The Great Ace Attorney. A brand new cast and very little references to the old games. But Capcom does not trust this series in being able to succeed without Phoenix being there. And unfortunately, the under-performance of the Miles Edgeworth games likely convinced them that Phoenix is integral to the series no matter what.
@@Teknanam ok, but you do know that the Investigations dualigy came AFTER AJAA, right?
After actually playing through Apollo Justice, it saddens me that the game was practically left behind by the new devs. They took a few nice things from it (main characters, some mentions and whatever) and threw everything else away. Imagine, just imagine how much more fun the story of Turnabout Academy would have been if Phoenix wasn't just there for Athena and wholly on board the "Ends don't justify means" train! Imagine him confessing in private to sabotaging the jurors so that they would definitely convict Kristoph. Imagine Athena trying to prove him wrong and succeeding! So much potential character potential... wasted. Because they needed Phoenix to be playable (read: in his Trilogy self, being clueless and all).
To be fair, Phoenix mentions a couple of time that he watches Apollo's and Athena's trials from the gallery, so it makes some sense that he will know when he is needed. As for how it timed it so well, the only idea I have is that he runs REALLY fast (or, you know, has plot armor)
I like more confident Phoenix. I’d rather play Rise from the Ashes Phoenix way better than him in the next game. I was very happy to see a more Senior version of that character come back for Dual Destinies. He feels more competent, which makes me feel more in my element as a player.
I agree, I think the writers did a very good job with phoenix. Phoenix has a lot of experience and has aged, so of course he’s not the same as he started off in the trilogy. Hobo phoenix is just Apollo’s phoenix, as in, that is how apollo sees him. Phoenix thinks a lot and has quite the pokerface, so from another perspective he seems completely different. More reserved and even imposing at times.
I have to kinda disagree with this video in general. I haven't totally finished dual destinies yet, I have the last case still (I also haven't played the dlc), but I think that you're kinda missing something here. I haven't played through Apollo Justice in quite a while, but from how I remember it, a key fact you're missing in the analyses in this video is that Phoenix had been pretty much preparing for a lot of the broader story beats of Apollo Justice for quite some time. It makes sense that he would have more outright confidence, which he keeps as much as he can with the context of the trials when he gets his badge back, given that he often has about one day to prepare for these trials. Aditionally, I don't remember Phoenix taking on an expressly nihilistic character in any part of Apollo Justice, but then again I played it during my peak edgy teen years forever ago. But I feel like he was more or less just spiteful and looking for closure, and once that came he probably happily left a lot of what he had become behind. Like, when I first got dual destinies years ago it felt kinda weird to me since he was nowhere near as omniscient as he felt in AJ, but honestly it feels pretty fine to me now.
Agreed
I think you are mostly right, while Phoenix looked super trashy in AJ he doesn't really bring any nihilistic message and he's actually scheming the whole time to defeat his real enemy.
I just realized appolo led more cases than Athena on her “own” game? Appolo basically led 2 full cases, while athena led 1 and almost led 2 but nick took over. Goes to show how 50 stories appolo takes over.
Same in Spirit of Justice, even though this one it's suposed to be focussed on Apollo, Athena is only needed while they need the mood matrix :/, not even Simon respect her in the SoJ case.
It’s not her own game, she is not in the logo. She is kind of a sidekick like Maya and Trucy.
@@LittleSparklingStars no, she is a main character, if you played the game the plot was focussed on her but unfortunately they did her dirty. It's Phoenix on the logo because it's the franchise Pheonix Wright, they tried to change the main lawyer in the Apollo Justice, but people didn't like it very much. Spirit Justice also have Phoenix on the logo but the game is heavily focussed on Apollo
@@joaolima7131 exactly, the fact that people think Athena is supposed to be a sidekick like maya and trucy when she is a LAWYER that has a special power and led cases before shows how the devs treat her.
She deserves a game for her now because Phoenix and appolo been fleshed out, the only one left is Athena, and they better not stall and create 1980 blast in the past AA games. The nostalgic era is over we been stuck in that for over a decade now!
@@joaolima7131 She was never treated as a proper protagonist, ever. She was kind of a pawn in dual destinies rather than the main char. If DD was her game, she would’ve been visible in the logo.
They should’ve made the game about Trucy becoming a prosecuting Attorney, facing off against her father in this epic kaiju battle in the courtroom with the judge turning into king kong and ruling the defendant guilty.
Note: The timeline in Dual Destinies is weird:
Case 2 -> DLC Case -> Case 3 -> Case 4A -> Case 1 -> Case 4B -> Case 5
I understand that the dlc happens between case 2 and case 3
@@spiderzsonic6581
Oh. thanks for letting me know
I'm pretty sure the DLC case is actually the first
@@bobbymcjoey9432 nop, in case 2 it is seen that phoenix still does not have its badge
@@spiderzsonic6581 Ah right, my bad
Hobo Phoenix is the best character in the series, it's such a fantastic turn, I loved every second he was on, even if, yeah, he smothers Apollo a bit in terms of narrative focus. Dual Destinies bringing back trilogy Nick is.... such a terrible terrible choice. He's regressed even beyond what he was in the AJ flashbacks. In AJ, when you play the flashback court case with nick he IS a character that is beyond what we get in Trilogy. He's intelligent, confident and vicious. Throughout that trial he's smacking Klavier around. We never got a Nick that's so confident and strong. In DD he's just... JFA Phoenix...
DD is a game that REALLY resents being part of the AA series. The story is all about Athena so Phoenix is just a hindrance to things moving forward. Apollo gets an interesting arc that happens mostly offscreen. Trucy gets done dirty as she not only has the worst model in the game (no one suffered as badly as she did from them dropping 2D art) but she's barely in it at all. Once AJ finished I was sure "Dual Destinies" meant the next game was precisely going to be about Apollo and Trucy but... no, lol.
The whole B plot of the game, with the "Dark Age of the Law" is just laughable if you've played Prosecutor's Path. The thing with Phoenix's disbarment and Simon's conviction is child's play compared to everything that happened with [Play Prosecutor's Path], who was actually a tremendously important and influential figure in the legal system. It's just SO beyond it in every level. We get the callback with Edgeworth showing for a bit (which was kinda random but... okay), but also we have an entire case in Themis Academy without Debeste Prosecutor making a cameo.... Seems they weren't satisfied either as I played the first case of Spirit of Justice last night and it's looking like it's a new spin on the same "Dark Age of the Law" thing. Just, do a different plot, guys, it's fine.
From the theming at least it's looking like for Spirit of Justice it really HAD to be Phoenix but they kept him in this sad state. Really early on he has to go against Payne and convince people to do the trial a different way than what they've been doing for decades in their literal totalitarian theocracy and Phoenix is just ripping into someone who might be that country's most important person with a barrage of sarcastic snark and... My dude.... You're supposed to be an adult now, you know better than to play it like this, we've seen you do better before. The people who wrote DD and SoJ seemingly have that narrative cowardice where nothing can ever really change, so characters are unable to move forward. Phoenix must always be the same guy who was fumbling about only half knowing what he was doing. Shoving evidence in Manfred's face claiming it could put him in jail without ever considering what he might want to do about it (heck, they take away some evidence from the team in similar ways in DD).... A real shame, really. The cases themselves aren't even that bad (though I disagree strongly on the first one. That case is worst than the first case in JFA, so.... so painful). But this game's writers really wanted a blank slate instead
Hit the nail on the head, man. Really brilliant analysis, 100% agree
No the hell he is not. ABSOLUTELY FUCKING NOT. HOBO PHOENIX IS THE WORST CHARACTER, IT RUINED PHOENIX! APOLLO SUCKED. DUAL DESTINIES BRINGING HIM BACK WAS THE BEST CHOICE THEY EVER MADE, IDIOT! PLAYING AS ANYONE ELSE IS BORING.
You don't even need to play Prosecutor's Path to realize something is off here. Let's look back at the mainline games:
1) Manfred von Karma, a top prosecutor with a long career, is exposed as a murderer and an evidence forger.
2) The district's Chief Prosecutor and Chief of Police are simultaneously revealed to have been forging evidence for *years*, and the Chief of Police (formerly a celebrated investigator) is a murderer.
3) Godot, a prosecutor, is revealed to have killed someone. Now you could argue he wasn't a prosecutor for that long - but I don't think Simon Blackquill was one for long either at the time of his conviction.
And then the first Investigations game:
1) A High Prosecutor (Jacques Portsman) is revealed to have murdered a police detective and be a collaborator with an international smuggling ring
2) A defense attorney is revealed to be a murderer and a lead figure in the same international smuggling ring
@@magicdog9523 Oh, for sure. It just always comes to my mind because everything related to Blaise that gets unearthed in that game is just so wildly beyond all of these other things that it really just makes, say, Simon's entire story look like a joke.
Well remembered about Callisto on things being way wilder on the defence end tho
I know this is the oddest take away I could get from your in-depth analysis, but your comment on Trucy has fixed a now 9 year feeling I've had with her; every other model looks fine, but hers just seems... off; Uncanny Valley-ish. I've never really been able to put my finger on it until you mentioned her. Thanks man.
Your other points are just as great though, especially how Phoenix has lost the confidence and experience he'd gained from T and T. The only time you ever see that Phoenix is his reintroduction in Turnabout Countdown and manages to keep the court proceedings from closing. Outside of that, he's so lacking in ANYTHING that made him grow that it borders on flanderisation of his character. It honestly feels like the writers sat down and had a conversation like this:
"Oh, Phoenix is back as a lawyer in this game. Quick, make him quirky and easily flustered yet massively overconfident. What's that? What about his 3 years of experience as a lawyer and his patience in dealing with Gavin for 7 years? Ehhh... Throw a line or two in there to show the hobo's still inside him. EH? He could be Apollo and Athena's Mia? Don't be silly! He's too quirky to be mature!"
Hey, hobo Nick was just a phase. He got his shit back together
Actually, all the Phoenix from DD quotes that make his look like a rookie, are from the English version of the game, the Japanese version have a Phoenix more mature with the occasionally dad jokes
If you ask, I heard this from a translator of Ace Attorney (the Spanish version from the GBA) that asked to h3rmit (a very veteran translator, he was part from the translation of AAI2)
It's funny because that's how he is in the original trilogy anyway. Japanese Phoenix denounces Maya's antics at every breathable moment and is stern/serious, and his American counterpart "denounces" it but totally plays along with her anyway and has fun with his job
I think it's just a Localization thing, because a more serious American Phoenix would be out of character for him
@@gr33nriver77 I'm assuming this explains the weirdness in Trials and Tribulations where one of the characters claims that Phoenix has become a "very cynical person" since the time of the incident with Dahlia when he was younger?
Is there a fan localization anywhere?
@@Zerorenren4761 if you mean a translation with this type of Phoenix, for what I know, no, all the localization that I know are since the English localization
My headcanon is that courtroom is still bugged under his "Jurist System" and they just forgot it existed cos' they have been proven to be incompetent like that.
So he could probably could hear the courtroom on his phone to object on time also makes a cool babysitter phone to watch his proteges.
As someone who have submitted an university paper on Ace Attorney's game dev as a series, I'd say a more on the nose guess is Capcom mandated to bring Nick back to how he was in the trilogy just like they forced him into Apollo Justice when Shu did'nt want to. Safer decisions like these have existed in the company's history. Also remember this was the Junior team from the AA Investigation game so they tended to be more subservient to Capcom management as this was their first big shot at a mainline game. Shu had and felt the right to be more rebellious as series creator and had proven success.
Lowkey, never thought would be defending Yamazaki but the proof had to be said.
I mean that thing with Payne seemed like an easy fix, just make the sprite less dramatic. If the sprite only twitched, and we got the loud inner monologue, it would show the development there.
I get that it would be less ‘fun’ than the shocked sprite, but I’m gonna be honest. that, and his nervous sprite, kinda look creepy in 3D anyway. toning them down would not be much of a loss.
Or well that’s my opinion anyway.
It is weird how a man who spent seven years as an undefeated poker player and seems to have mastered his poker face immediately goes back to such obvious facial expressions.
only character development for phoenix was his hair style
And dress
Honestly if Phoenix was a confident dude who always did the "I kmowbthe answer but the player may not" attitude up until apollo goes away and athena gets accused or whatever happened. His monolouge where he feels bad for failing his employees and his fight with apollo would have been a good character moment. His bond with his agency lawyers are/were the only really good character thread they have on him.
Hobo-Dad phoenix was perfect and should have been a mainstay.
YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY WRONG. HOBO PHOENIX IS THE WORST CHARACTER IN THE ENTIRE SERIES. *THEY MADE A GOOD CHOICE BRINGING HIM BACK AS A LAWYER.*
@@jaxsterminator8634 I like hobo-phoenix because it's a reasonable evolution of a character who's been battered by the society he lives in. Hobo-dad Phoenix is a man who isn't living for himself, so much as he is for Apollo, Trucy, and the sake of justice.
@@meisterschwert *unreasonable
@@jaxsterminator8634 Please explain why you don't like hobo-dad phoenix beside him being "THE WORST CHARACTER IN THE ENTIRE SERIES". I would like to see your opinions but you're the one being unreasonable.
@@meisterschwert He’s boring, he isn’t a lawyer, you don’t get to play as him, he’s too negative
i first played dual destinies like years ago and coudnt replay it until this year. in the meantime i got really into critical role and the ABSOLUTE WIPLASH i get every time i hear phoenix voice ( like at about 3:40 ) and its just sam riegel yelling is something i cannot put into words
I was waiting for this video !
I know a lot of people complain about post!Apollo Justice Phoenix becoming a lawyer again, but I’m actually really happy to see Phoenix put his badge back on and get back on his feet. When I first saw the opening of Dual Destinies, I was legitimately happy to see him rise from the proverbial ashes (so to speak), and I still smile when I see him strutting around in his iconic suit again.
But even so, I will agree that I do wish we saw more of his post!Apollo Justice personality in Dual Destinies and Spirit of Justice. It would be a lot more interesting to play Phoenix and see how he reacts to these new cases with his new mindset when compared to his characterization in the original trilogy. I’m not saying he should be a completely different person, but it would be nice to see more of that characterization in his current iteration.
I imagine he just did it no matter where in a sentence someone happens to be
It's a case of Flanderization. I remember seeing a video a while back detailing how all of the problems with DD and SoJ stem from the director's desire to make any game in the series a potential entry point, and much like a long-running sitcom, none of the main characters are allowed to have meaningful development and are reduced to walking collections of tropes and cliches. It's also why the Great Ace Attorney was so good. It left behind the established characters that forced the writers into a corner.
The idea that every game in the series should work as an entry point is one that has existed since the start of the series, Great Ace Attorney is pretty much the only game that doesn't uphold it. Apollo even gets his most crucial character growth in the second trilogy in Dual Destinies and its carried over into Spirit of Justice.
My ideal phoenix for this game would be way more cool headed throughout the entire trial meticulously planning out everything and then dropping the act at the end when he reveals the culprit and just absolutely hammering on piece of evidence after evidence
Dual Destinies is my least liked entry in the franchise, for various reasons.
The incredibly convoluted and confusing timeline progression (why so confusing)
The weird approach to 3D that felt more "hey we have to keep up with the times" rather than "look at what we can do NOW" (TGAA does a great job at it, instead)
The new "no spoilers" rule that basically prevents characters from mentioning past events (I feel it's kind of pointless and strict)
But worst of all, in my opinion
The Retcon to Phoenix's character from Apollo Justice
and
The Retcon to Edgeworth's character from the Investigations games
the game I find messes up on many fronts and shines very little compared to the rest of the series (when you have T&T and TGAA2, lacklustery shows). Athena was fun though, and I really liked the Mood Matrix.
Wrong.
They weren’t repcons, they made the character BETTER
@@jaxsterminator8634 Did you play AA Investigations 2? How can you say Edgeworth is better in DD than Investigations 2?
I already gave a portion of my side of the argument, but I want to hear a proper response.
Please elaborate on how you feel their character was improved.
@@Emboarbof I already gave a proper response…
The design, the voice, everything, there’s too much to say.
@@jaxsterminator8634 This is not how you elaborate, my dude...
@@Emboarbof YES IT IS.
tbh i think rise from the ashes should’ve been placed after trials and tribulations in the series. it would make a lot more sense
well two problems: 1) that means to play rise from the ashes you need to play the whole trilogies, not ideal given that it was supposed to promote the new features for the ds since the rerelease of the games on this console. 2) edgeworth, this case is there to consolidated his development from turnabout goodbyes (poorly tho since to me it's kinda fast forward his character past trilogy just like phoenix.
although i wish that phoenix didn’t take a main character role in the 3D series, i like how he was so vastly different in AJ (despite the game being heavily flawed). i think what would have made his character more believable is if in DD, he was just coming back into his own (like still being an asshole but working on it type of thing). then maybe in SoJ THEN he’d at least be a lawyer again but not a playable character? maybe just a support for athena or apollo.
either way i like how phoenix stays in the series but wish he was handled better because seeing him back in glory is lovely for long time fans, but in terms of story, not logical.
I love Apollo Justice, and it's story. However I think you're stretching a hair here. I think by the way Phoenix was in AJ, he was always waiting to come back stronger than before and Apollo was simply the catalyst for that. Once he had the opportunity, he came back a smarter, more confident, prepared attorney with the knowledge of Mia and everyone in previous games. Plus I mean he is literally seven years older and I think it is said in that game that he was constantly involved in following court proceedings over those seven years in AJ, while he was a hobo.
the rise of the ashes comment makes me realize how much 1-5 was pretty much the test run for what they'd try to pull in the 4th game with him, I have noticed that people who enjoy hobo nick also tend to really rate 1-5 super high, meanwhile people that don't, also tend to think 1-5 is rather middling, still good but not amazing.
the 5th game in general feels like Classic Capcom Course Correction, or C4 as I like to call it, you see them do this with several IP's when they release something that isn't received too well, DMC in general is a series with TWO examples of this happening in it, for the better overall in its case. for AA i'd say its half good and half bad that they over-corrected, but in the case of Phoenix I'm just kinda happy they decided to push him closer to how he was originally, because you know most companies would never admit they changed a character entirely and instead would double down on it to push new characters, which is something we have all seen in modern day media's, I'll save the rest of my thoughts for this if you make an AA5 video on how it tries(for better or worse) to pretend the 4th game didn't happen.
I just started playing DD 5 days ago. I can’t wait to watch this once I’m done
I finished yesterday! What I didn’t like was that Nick automatically had his badge back. I wish we could’ve gotten to see more of how he got his badge back instead of just immediately introducing us to Nick with a badge. I do agree with this video though, he _should_ be more confident he’s had years of experience and he’s also the god at bluffing. I would be a little more than a little confident if I were him. Apollo got screwed over in this game in my opinion. First he gets caught in an explosion, then he gets assaulted, then he loses his best friend. I honestly felt bad for him the entire time. Then, out of nowhere he decides to leave with no explanation. I get why he did that, but he didn’t have to go all emopollo on us. Athena is a great character in my opinion. Unfortunately, I’m still traumatized by bloody Athena saying: “Something’s wrong with Mom, so I took her apart!” That image will forever be burned into my memory. The DLC case was great too. Cross-examining a whale and having a whale defendant is just classic Nick. I love it! Oh, I forgot to mention: They did Klavier dirty with the 3D model. He looks awful
3:44
One thing to note is that the tutorial case chronologically occurs during case 4 (nearly the end of the game).
although I would have to refresh the story to give a better opinion
2:52 I started laughing and then looked down and realized I was dressed like that
A little like they his a soft factory reset on Buzz Lightyear or The Crystal Gems I would put it.
Mostly from the gameplay point of having Wright up against what feels like a steep uphill battle again and doing away with such interconnectedness that the main trilogy had. I don't absolutely love Hobo Phoenix, but because of later events that guy feels like his own character to this day which is an interesting deal.
I'm very disappointed in this phoenix. He comes in looking like a badass but he doesn't actually feel like one. The whole point of a mentor character is that they're at an edge above the youngsters and knows things they do not. When you see everything phoenix is thinking and planning, it removes that excitement factor of the character.
Have him be like herlock sholmes, a calculating mysterious mentor with a passion for justice and make him actually involved in the story.
*IT ISN’T EVEN DISAPPOINTING*
I learned that Takushi Yamazaki has dementia.
Nah, he just gained back his job and most likely got rid of depression, so returning to his old self is fine. I was glad he moved on
As for his confidence in AJ, he was preparing for a long time to get things work as planned, so
But it's just my impression
It's the blue suit doing things to him
All I can think about is the footage you used for this video. There’s an anime for the 4-6 games? When? And where do I watch 😅
Aren't those just the cutscenes in the actual games?
I think the portrayal of Phoenix in the fan project Elements of Justice is honestly the best portrayal of sequel-trilogy Nick. It really feels like he was affected by and grew from his experience in AJ, but he still has a healthy dose of the goofiness from the original trilogy
You know, I never properly played Apollo Justice, and it is sorta weird how DD just felt like it continued from T&T like nothing ever happened in AJ (while I didn't play it, I do know vaguely how it went from the stuff I see online).
Why do they hate apollo justice so much? DD retconned almost everything from AJ
Because Apollo is a boring character and Hobo Phoenix is the worst character ever.
@@jaxsterminator8634 i dont agree with your opinion but they arent even real so
@@jaxsterminator8634 Which is exactly why Apollo is one of the few things carried over, lmao.
Phoenix can see the Psyche Locks from outside the courtroom!
I think when it comes to the whole courtroom objection entrance. We need to remember that the entire Phoenix wright agency is full of exclusively theatre kids essentially. I like to believe Phoenix was there with his ear against the door just waiting for the perfect opportunity to burst in dramatically.
While it is inconsistent, I thought Apollo Wright was a misstep anyways so I’m not hurt about it being gone. Although, them leaving anything from Apollo in the past besides Klavier cameo in one DD case and the whole Apollo/Trucy thing looming is a bit dumb. Whether it was a great game or not, there’s potential in what they set up that they just threw to the wayside.
bro justice for klavier. where is my bi king
they butchered his objection too 😭😭😭 whyd they have to change it nothing was wrong with it
You should cover the two Ace Attorney Investigation games.
I think Turnabout Succession Phoenix is distinctly different from both the Trilogy and the rest of Apollo Justice, first of all he's extremely confident in his abilities, rarely shows any signs of stress, is very good at controlling the direction of the trial though sadly that trial was made specifically to screw him over so it doesn't matter, and lastly he approaches rookie prosecutors very differently from how he used to.
Phoenix constantly looks down on Klavier as a greenhorn, not in a condescending manner but in the same way a teacher would think of a student when they make mistakes, he was an extremely strong lawyer in that case and I kind of wish I saw more of him like that, he honestly shows more impressive traits than anyone else in the series, including prosecutors.
Does Phoenix in Turnabout Succession ever really act like he's been backed into a corner? Even when he was I don't recall seeing him do the normal routine.
Ya know I think Phoenix is much more in Episodes 2 and 3 of DD, like how he quickly makes sure Athena and him get a look of Turnabout Academy’s crime scene to make sure any forged evidence won’t be accepted
Danikyo called it out a long time ago
Case 2, 6, 3, and half of 4 take place before case 1 in dual destines so that’s why the character shift is so sudden. The guy is a bit closer to the AJ iteration in case 2 as it’s his first 1 after getting the badge back. Not to defend it or anything but that’s the canon explanation.
As much as it doesn't make sense to brighten in the span of a single year, I still like his return. DD had the harduous task of beginning from a controversial game, so I can see why some decisions were made this way.
Rise from the ashes did came out in like 2005 after all
I think the characterization went back to the trilogy because part of the reception apollo justice has.
I remember how many fans didn't like AJ than those who like AJ, so I am thinking they really want to start fresh but at the same time not entirely forgetting AJ as not to step toes of those who did like AJ.
4:45 Just think of a guy who said hearsay alot without knowing what's going on he's just doing the same except it's objection in this case.
Not that I don’t basically agree with everything said about DD Nick but…
It’s incredibly unfair to blame Yamazaki for these things in Dual Destinies.
Can you really blame someone forced to make a game that Capcom likely demanded:
-a new third protag 1 game after you just got a “next generation” protag
-wash away the prior game’s prior statement/resolution so you can continue the iconic status quo gameplay
-reinstate Nick as an attorney aka needing to ignore his finished character arc because he is still the face of the franchise and the most marketable thing from it
Not to mention if you look closely he’s not even a creditted writer of DD but is for EVERY OTHER GAME HE DIRECTED
I think it’s unfair to him especially because SoJ really goes onto be the effective follow up to AJ, so I don’t doubt that he probably would have preferred to work with more new ideas instead of being stuck to presumable Capcom mandates.
SOJ isn't an effective followup to AJ at all lol
@@Klonoahedgehog you could of just said you didn't play the game and it would have the same effect :)
@@Lego1upMushroom I did, the only case that even remotely comes close to being a sequel to AJ was the second one.
I still can’t help but picture Nick after Apollo Justice as this mix of his trilogy self and AJ self. In my mind he’s a goofy, well intentioned guy who is no longer above twisting the narrative and boundaries while still remaining legal. He has this serious AJ like side that will come out when in court but when around people like Maya or Trucy, his trilogy side comes out. I definitely want to see him in more of mentor role in the future games rather than a stand alone lawyer, like Mia. He has his own stuff going on but he’s gladly taken up the role of a teacher and that’s how he would be most often seen as.
Watching this review admist someone going through a playthrough of Dual Destinies, and I think I forgot how much they try to focus (but then not really follow through, typical of DD) the idea of Nick being a boss and having responsibilities, that sort of thing. It was interesting. I like a lot of the ideas DD presents, but doesn't quite follow through with them, like the Dark Age of the Law, which was much better presented in Apollo anyways. Pretty sure they just knew how controversial AJ was and tried to 'fix' it. Between Apollo AND Athena and trying to do stuff with them, I think just having standard, familiar Nick was probably an intentional decision for fans, even if it is dissapointing.
I do think him being a lot more composed (ie the whole intro lines in Case 1 where he confidently goes into the details of the case after he saves Athena), but at this point I think lawyers being sometimes dumb or in the hot seat is just standard AA writing.
He does dress well though. Good to see
Why do you think Rise of the Ashes Phoenix is out of character? Didn’t even notice it when I played it
Tbh I couldn't even notice anything idk what he's talking about that version of phoenix was about
I don't see any reason Nick couldn't hear the prosecutor before he came in. This courtroom has an audience who can hear everything, so surely it is either miked or has very good accoustics. Heck, what would be the point of a large courtroom if you couldn't hear the trial?
the first case in the timeline of this game (yeah , the timeline and not the first episode) Monstrous Turnabout he is a lot like he was in AJ , always up to something but not telling and not giving a single shit about the case and letting Apollo do ALL the work , but i do agree that he is wayyy more clumsy .
4:17 As someone who's never played Danganronpa v3...what the fuck?
"YOU AND YOUR FUCKIN LIES, GO SIT IN THE CORNER AND PLAY WITH YOURSELF"
Yes, What the fuck indeed
imagine if Phoenix didn't wear an entire suit in dual destinies, like he just wore a dress shirt & a loose tie. that would be like a trait of hobo Phoenix or a more noticeable in between.
Athena's va also voices Blanc from HyperDimension Neptunia
Another Foul mouth character
Pheonix was probably also making a DYNAMIC Entry type of deal with that
"OBJECTION !!"
Hobo Nick was him working undercover too, that's actually not who he IS by default and also it's possible it wasn't one Year since we last saw him
I honestly have to disagree on Phoenxi being written like his trilogy self. He's a watered down attempt at his trilogy self, but he lacks even the compelling characteristics he had back then. He was very devoted to his loved ones in the trilogy, to the point of bending the law for them at times (or at least considering it). Farewell, My Turnabout has a kidnapped Maya making Phoenix panic and nearly turn his back on everything he believed in to get her back. Phoenix barely acknowledges Trucy's kidnapping in DD at all and his concern for her comes off as almost performative. There's no stakes here. He's also far more prone to ridiculous and unfunny outbursts that give me secondhand embarrassment, and his "confidence' comes off as smugness to the point of being insufferable. Trilogy Phoenix was quirky and didn't rely solely on bluffing his way through trials. This fake Phoenix is an idiot, and a highly unpleasant one at that. I despise DD/SoJ Phoenix with every fiber of my being. It's like he's an imposter. And as much as I dislike the "hobo" story, at least he's written competently as a character. This poor excuse for Phoenix is insulting. But... it seems like no one else really agrees with me...
Maybe he IS an imposter.
Based comment. I hate how people seem to forget his character development in the trilogy. Yes he does bluffing alot but that is not only thing that create his character, he has gone through 2 major character development in JFA and T&T and i expected him to be a confident lawyer not a dumbass in DD. His DD self is a shame to his character development in the trilogy. And don't even mention AJ Nick, that is a completely different person and not Nick that i knew, AJ and DD Nick has completely ruined his character development
We got Furio Tigre's twin brother to play Phoenix in this one.
Takes place 3 years after bro
(After an btw)
Aj
You have to bare in mind DD is the first time we see Nick as a lawyer not being infuenced by someone else! He has become the boss now.
Previously he's has Mia and Edgeworth teaching him things constantly and then he lost his licence and now hes back and defining his own style.
Personally i love this version of Nick, he's got mia's belief in the defendant and analitic skills and also Edgeworths cool and truth seeking. As well as a few of his own traits.
I mean like… to be fair, literally everyone in this series has perfect dramatic timing bursting into a courtroom, I don’t think you can blame 5-1 Phoenix for that. :p
Also to be fair, DD and SOJ leave Apollo Justice-the-character in a weird limbo too! :P
God, Apollo deserved better…
Janet Hsu didn't translate the first game, so the name Phoneix Wright was unlikely to be created by her.
The makes sense it retrospect. The first game’s translation feels very different. Also no one says light curses in Ace Attorney like “Damn” after the game. Interesting tidbit.
@@Nastara Lang says bastard in Investigations 1
While I don't necessarily agree with the complete 180 they did with Phoenix in Dual Destinies. It is the game that introduced Simon Blackquill, who is my absolute favorite prosecutor in the franchise. I love my weeb prosecutor and I'm glad the game exists for that reason alone.
I think DD would’ve benefitted a lot from taking place 2-3 years after AJ (including moving the UR-1 incident down by 2-3 years as well). Phoenix isn’t necessarily unrealistic, it’s just too much development for less than a full year’s worth of time. Moving DD and the events that lead to it down a few years doesn’t cause big problems with any of the post-trilogy games and gives Phoenix the room needed to make his reappearance believable.
Ok regardless of writing though, in my opinion this is visually phoenix wright's best design :)
The biggest problem of DD is that the cases are out of order. The tutorial case is almost of DD is near the end of the game, which is why Phoenix feels like he jumps a lot from AJ to DD.
Love this game 🤩
Call it nostalgia but I adore the game (spirit of justice even more!)
Dual destinies Phoenix could’ve never taken down Kristoph honestly it’s a huge shift in competence
AJ Phoenix went from smug and mysterious to DD Phoenix that has no braincells sometimes and just typical PW - JFA Phoenix
He has a lot of braincells
AJ Phoenix didn’t
In addition to this, the whole "Dark age of the law" narrative was very underdeveloped. The whole jury angle in the final case of Apollo Justice was just glossed over as if it never happened, when it actually could have been used to fuel the narrative; the people become irate over the fact that Phoenix 'used' the people simply to get the verdict he wanted in a case that he had personal stakes in, only to forgo the jury system when it was all over. This could have been referenced, and used as one of the straws that broke the camel's back regarding the people's distrust of the court system
It is actually hilarious how justified the "Dark age" actually was as a plotline, but they just used none of it.
Several procecutors of high status? Arrested as murderers.
Former boss of the procecution office? Arrested for forging evidence and assisting a murderer(Even if she was blackmailed to do it)
Defence? Murderers(Kristoph), no security for people to illegally sneak in without issue(Furio and Edgeworth) and seemingly corrupt(Phoenix's whole deal).
Police? Sometimes corrupt, sometimes incompetent, sometimes guilty of murder in the case of their boss(Silly Damon)
The issue is that they have to reference earlier games to make the plotline satisfying and Capcom does not like that very much.
not gonna lie, DD was a glorious mess because they introduce a new lawyer in Athena then tone her down to a comic relief character with Trucy, when Apollo himself was barely developed
imo i think Phoenix's character was done by t&t and Shu Takumi had to forcefully put him in AJ due to the Capcom higher ups, and DD was a mess regarding his character, they just made him playable because he's the mascot y'know, i can't blame Yamazaki for trying because that man managed to direct AAI2
even Maya had her arc done by SoJ and it felt less worse
I feel like Phoenix was in Apollo justice for the sake of him passing the torch. I feel pheonix should have been allowed to stay out of court and work on being a good dad.
I think Hobo Phoenix is not the same Phoenix Wright in our memories,that's why.
(Fun fact:He used to be the new original character in Apollo Justice,not some hobo called"Phoenix Wright" now.)
I feel like at this point with all the criticism past trilogy games have capcom should just. make a remake, a much better and improved sequel. I mean honestly the chances of that happening is very slim but one can only hope...
I think you don't consider one Factor with your criticism: fun. AA is a game and if our protagonist is a gloomy asshole, that can be a major turn off for many. It might have been more realistic to keep more aspect of hobohodo, but 1. it wasn't well received 2. it wouldnt be fun to read his inner misery through cases.
An example: World of Warcraft had the brilliant idea to force the players to spending an entire expansion in the realm of the dead with bleak af stories and enviroment. On paper, everything sounded great and exciting! Ooooooh, this spooky place and serious tone! How it turned out? Let's just say, that Shadowlands is considered to be the worst wow expansion ever. They learned their lession and the next expansion is filled with bright colors and heartwarming stories and it got a pretty good reception.
Uh.... I know it's late, but that's such a flawed example. Shadowlands wasn't hated because of its bleak story and environment. Rather, it's because of how it made no sense to the story development and its' gameplay elements. Besides, WoTLK did the whole bleak and serious storyline having to do with the dead (It's Arthas, the Lich King. You really can't get anymore depressing than that in Warcraft), and it was a big hit, and still is considered a popular expansion among private server players.
Legion was also rather bleak with the whole demonic invasion thing going on. It was also considered one of the hits