The more I hear these stories, the more rage I feel… and I am not a victim! This is beyond outrageous. The Post Office has acted criminally. Their actions have stolen people’s liberty, ruined lives and reputations, and even led to people’s deaths. There MUST be a reckoning for this.
I’m glad I am not the only one incandescent with rage about all this. I think part of it is that the Post Office used to be one of those quintessentially British institutions that kind of made me feel proud and grateful as a British person. The fact that the people in charge have just been allowed to get away with this is infuriating.
It is not "the post office", that have done this but managers running the post office who are to blame.I would guess that all enquiries etc will skid over responsibility and white wash those responsible.
I just sat and cried throughout the entire drama. I felt so sorry for the innocent people who literally had nowhere to turn and some of them went to prison. It is the worst type of abuse by a Government Agency and needs to be investigated for Fraud. I hope the Postmaster’s compensation reflects their suffering and humiliation from the Post Office Management.
I know it’s a cliché, but in some ways (though definitely not others) we’re all victims. A vicious, almost unbelievable injustice has been knowingly committed against people like us, and, for as long as there is not real, substantial, and very public accountability for the perpetrators, they will feel like they can do it again, to any of us, with impunity, whenever it suits them. How afraid, or otherwise, these actors are of the consequences when they do wrong affects us all. They weren’t nearly afraid enough in this case. Let us fervently hope that by the time the dust settles on this issue, they are more afraid than ever before.
The fact that they stood up in court and lied is egregious. Heads need to roll for this! I am so tired of people in this country just allowing people in the establishment to get away with things that are downright wrong. The more I look at this situation it seems like a reflection of the decline of our country. All our institutions are corrupt and the powers that be don’t even care that they are! Imagine knowing all this is happening in one of our most trusted institutions and just being ok with it! There needs to be drastic change in this country.
He needs to be reimbursed by millions! And his town needs to have a penance service and everyone personally apologize to him. What a horrific situation and horrible people!!
I have followed the Post Office 'Horizon' scandal for many years and the more I hear from the sub postmasters affected by this, the more it sickens and enrages me. ALL of those that allowed this travesty to 'be' need to be named, shamed and sent to prison.
I've also followed this scandal for many years and it didn't take a genius to start to question the link between the computer system and the sudden cash discrepancies. That none of the people responsible for the this atrocity have been prosecuted is an affront to so called Justice and the people that they persecuted.
I work in programming and software engineering the gaslighting and arrogance from the executives sends a shiver down my spine, Kafka esque doesn’t even do it justice
That's what I don't understand about this. Even back in 1999, all it should have taken would be a few good software engineers to look over the code and fix it. Did the government even do this?
The fact that the Post Office decided immediately to put all their trust in a Big Company with new IT, rather than stand by their own Workforce, who have a Great deal of Experience and Loyalty combined. These Victims of Crime, must all get the Justice they whole heartedly deserve. 🇬🇧💷⚖️
🦉🐯 Paula Vennells, who served as Post Office CEO from 2012 to 2019, ran this firm whilst it routinely denied there were problems with its Horizon IT system, she knew the issues and she lied, even “stealing” sub-postmasters personal money to “cover” their loses, and imprisoning innocent people, people, real people! The ones that are responsible have to face prison themselves, Paula Vennells needs to be on trial! As for the lawyers being awarded £321,000 by a judge for costs, well I doubt someone representing themselves get such an “award”.
for work for the post office! Beyond all belief that this woman was held in high enough regsrd to be given an honour after this scandal.......im spitting feathers over this. Btw jo pleaded guilty to avoid prison.... she was scared stiff!
This government drag their feet at paying back, and compensation to people who have been hurt with not just this miscarriage of justice but many others too, when they easily pay out millions to their cronies. My heart goes out to Lee and all the other people who have been scammed by the PO/ our government.
THAT is the fact, and well put. Michele Mone and her husband’s profiteering from their C-19, garbage, “PPE” sales scam to the NHS, putting first responders and hospital workers’ lives at risk…Who knows the full ramifications of their actions? It’s impossible to truly enumerate and that’s what gives her cover. How many died before the problems with the kit they supplied were discovered?….And she sits in the House of Lords? She’s a complete and utter disgrace. She cheapens the air she breathes in the House. She needs to go, the sooner the better.
The social damage caused by privatisation is never ending. These people should be compensated to the point that they never have to worry about money again for the rest of their lives.
A mate of mine was also a Sub-Postmaster in a small coastal village, and his dad before him. He was similarly accused of cooking the books in exactly the same way and for the same given reasons as the interviewee, new software rollout followed by booked cash “disappearing” before his eyes. Knowing him and his family for over 40 years I have to say that there’s absolutely no way in creation that he’d have done what he was accused of, no chance. He eventually managed to establish his innocence through beginning a regime of two hourly accounts reconciliations, filming the onscreen data, working late nights checking and rechecking while recording everything meticulously. Following the 2 years of unbelievable strife that he went through, his lifetime of faith in the organisation was pretty much shredded. Then the rollout of shutdowns really started happening and he got leant on harder and harder to throw the towel in and just take the lousy offer he was being made to give the office up. Eventually he gave in and let it go, it broke him.
Do you think there was a concerted effort to get rid of the small post offices and this was part of the plan…or was the computer glitches just coincidental?
@@bobwishart8780 “Never ascribe to malice what can be explained by incompetence.” There was plenty of malice the further along this whole thing went, but I don’t believe that this was a planned thing. Software is difficult, bugs are normal, but the Post Office was too arrogant and proud to admit that there could have been a mistake.
Small minded people , parents, taught their kids to bully other kids. You know who you are. Problem is the judges were not impartial accepting without question the PO assertions. They must also be investigated for corruption.
You are right about the judiciary , in this case they appear to be lacking impartiality, I suspect on instructions from the government, ie, back the PO to the hilt , this entire episode goes deeper than just the Post Office , the government are the major shareholders of this organisation and by way of votes and finance we the much despised general public are the actual owners , given that the government and it's lackies in the civil service have a duty to listen and enact the wishes of the public , the very idea of such a thing is anathema to our so called public servants and will almost certainly on be acted upon.
I said the same thing yesterday, surely a judge with think….hang on??? I am watching the inquiry, and most of the people who continued to perpetrate the lies & prosecution of innocent people infuriates me. This poor man & his family deserves to be recompensed fully + more, but it will never repair the damage that has been done😔
Paula vennells needs a criminal investigation as do here other companies and ventures hopefully one of our intelligence services will do the right thing as people would for them if in the same spot!
Fraud is a diversion and a very odd charge to pursue. We have seen easily proved examples of perjury and a conspiracy to pervert the course of justice in these cases and that is what the charges should be.
The stipulation in the contract that they had to cover losses personally, and then the computer system not working properly, sounds like a set up to me. It has taken far too long to sort this out. Post Office bullies! This is heart-breaking.
Adam crozier was the post office ceo before Paula Vennalls he needs to be held to account when he left the post office he took up a high profile position with itv unsurprisingly he was not included in the itv program. Investigate Adam Crozier now
What a amazing gentleman. Please everyone help him who can, everyone at the post office scandal should be in jail right now. Disgusting. Post office needs to be disbanded.
What I fear will happen is that they'll find a few mid ranking PO and Fujitsu people and throw them under the bus, and all of the senior managers will just get a slap on the wrist.
I've been following this scandal for many years now and I can't tell you how angry and ashamed I am of being English. Governments of all shades have dragged their feet and kicked the can down the road from the beginning..The Post Office, Fujitsu and The Government all share responsibility for this utter catastrophey. Compensation and accountability are all well overdue!
A scandalous witch-hunt with disastrous personal, human and social consequences. Can't understand how such criminal misjugements can take place in a modern society. And the responsible is probably sitting in the house of Lords...
Heads need to roll for this travesty and not able to hide behind a company. The people in charge made these decisions and lied in court...that's criminal.
Surely the first thing the Post Office has to do NOW is to reimburse all the postmasters or their descendents with the money they stole with appropriate interest payments. After all it is still the postmasters' personal money.
When corporations are held criminally accountable….. nothing will change, Only when the directors and CEOs who dictate policy are held criminally accountable will things change
I feel devastated for the sub contractors their families the disgusting behaviour from the gov down to the post office continues to not answer honestly & only say sorry after 20 years 😡
Lee my heart bleeds for you, your wife and children. Fight the good fight my friend and as a British tax payer who owns the post office I am so sorry .
The Post Office should be prosecuted also and as a matter of priority for the fraud and theft that lost the postmasters and mistresses their livelihoods, homes and reputations.
A sad (and infuriating) thing amongst admittedly loads of sad things about this case is that this is not a surprise, time and time again the establishment tries to crush the little people then closes ranks and not one person is ever held to account.
The management of the Post Office from 2003 onwards should brought to book. They were completely at fault. Their lawyers were mislead,but that doesn't let them out of this scandal. They didn't do due diligence. How has it taken the Met Police so long to act?. What have they doing all this time? The whole scandal is so horrendous. The Government owned the Post Office,so they're culpable as well . The Sub-Postmasters should have legal and financial backing to bring charges against all those at The Post Office,who engineered this disgusting situation.
About time postal workers said this when it first happened. That woman should be in prision never mind her award. Also where were the unions so much for paying fees each week.
"Justice delayed is justice denied" means that if legal redress to an injured party is available, but is not forthcoming in a timely fashion, it is effectively the same as having no remedy at all. And unfortunately, for too many sub-postmasters, that is the reality, especially for those who have died, killed themselves, suffered illness, or have a criminal stain on their record. No amount of delayed compensation after 20 years will make much of a difference to that.
The absolute base line of compensation should be the full amount that they were accused of stealing, especially as the money effectively was never missing in the first place, , it should also include any interst on the monies that they paid the post office. Then, real compensation should be awarded for all other losses as a result of this mafia like action.
Does anyone know the average rate of fraud, or number of postmasters and postmistresses accused BEFORE the introduction of the new computer system? Surely this would give an indication of what was going on.
it was around 5 - 6 people per year which were prosecuted and after the new system launched it shot up to 50 - 60 per year. The post office argued the system uncovered fraud that the previous system didnt....
Exactly. Post Office executives had a duty to monitor fraud and had that been done professionally and properly then an anomalous increase in ‘fraud’ rates coincident with the introduction of Horizon would have been obvious. The application of basic statistics would have shown this.
@@rachell3117 If the system was designed to uncover fraud within its own accounting framework, it seems to have been seriously flawed, while the investigators appeared determined to have taken the route of a self-fulfilling prophecy. The damage to such an old, familiar, trusted brand name of "Post Office" and, by association, "Royal Mail" in British society must be incalculable.
I do hope that the people who gave Lee an his family a hard time spitting an yelling at them now, help them if the Castleton family can forgive them, he was wrongly accused an punished for absolutely nothing but provide a service to the people of Bridlington, well done to Lee and family which is twenty years too late.
Again we see that people of this country waiting years to get justice for a wrong doing by others that seems will never be found and face justice. What happened to the so-called great justice of this country.Sort this out now these people have suffered anough for two long. The post office must be stopped from using these lawyers to stop paying these people compo that will never be anough.
No one can tell me that Paula Vennells was totally to blame, it appears that she was the "fall-guy" at the time she was brought in, the Horizon problem was already very "robust", and the P.O boardroom knew there was a big fan that was going to hit bigtime, they neatly introduced Paula to the $hitstorm, and bless her she didn't have a clue she was manoeuvred so? Then there is the Fujitsu staff, their conduct is also criminal, if it can be shown that they guided some funds into associates or family accounts? If it was that easy to make numbers disappear at one terminal, it would be just as easy to make those "numbers" appear at another terminal, at another post office?
Let's see if the victims are compensated before their dearh. A police prosecution would likely take even longer. Posthumously found guilty wouldn't surprise me
The crash of the Post Office Horizon computer system destroyed the lives of 800 sub post masters. 44 years ago, the crash of the Air New Zealand DC-10 aircraft in Antarctica killed 257 souls. Both Post Office in the UK and Air New Zealand were owned 100% by the state. Post Office executives approved the lying. They blamed the Post Masters for the errors. Air New Zealand executives lied that the pilots made the errors when it was the company’s mismanagement that caused the crash. By blaming the pilots, the families of the 257 victims were defrauded by the state of New Zealand for the correct compensation. Instead, only NZ$42000 was payable under the Warsaw Convention that applied to pilot error crashes of the time. The NZ government got away with the biggest fraud in the Southern Hemisphere as a result of the Executives lying. Will the UK government succeed likewise in reducing the reimbursement of the sub postmasters in the UK? Highly likely!
As an "expert witness" and engineering software developer, I can tell you that it is 100% possible to find all the bugs in the Horizon software that ran on the post office users' systems. And once the bugs have been found, it is also 100% possible to determine EXACTLY how much each PO user account has been ripped off by, as every single transaction was recorded (logged). Once every single incorrect transaction has been logged, and tallied up with relevant phone call records, where users discussed issues, it'll be possible to prove guilt. Kind of obvious already, but hey. Then show how much suffering each user had to endure. The world is becoming more and more technical, and sadly our political rulers are becoming more and more misinformed, relying on 'trusted" technical sources who IMO are not to be trusted. Always use peer reviewed sources of technical reference, not "mates" who you think you can trust on technical matters.
I don't understand how people thought that someone being done for false accounting or theft within the post office translates to stealing from old people, as if they were mugging pensioners for thir pension book.
Even in 1999 all this should have taken is a good team of software engineers too find the code causing the problem, did the government even ask Fujitsu to do that?
What does this say about the British Justice System? How come no lawyers or judges connected the dots ? When an anomaly occurs why wasn't it questioned ?
I understand that amounts went into a suspence account that was cleared out after 3 years. If it was cleared that normally means it would go into the profit and loss account. The accountants and auditors should be questioned - they will know the answers! If this is correct. If wrong amounts have gone into the profit and loss account that must be fraud.
Sincerely, 900 people comiting the same crime and at the same time, software replacement. Comon sense dictates that there is something wrong on the software side...
Can anyone tell me if this faulty computer system was stopped being used. If so why? Was it just happening in certain areas? The nightmare for the victims is almost over. I hope all who have died are posthumously exonerated. And that heads will roll.
It is important to know that when all this happens Tthe Subpostoffices were financially suporting the PO. The Crown Offices (The big post offices) were losing money.
Those investigators earned bonuses - they had incentives - for the amount of money they clawed out of people’s hides There were emails shown at the inquiry, & they were crowing at how well they’d do!
Isn’t is convenient that one of the emails from Vennells was not redacted? So later down the line she can say she asked the question about horizon being able to access these terminals. This will be part of her convenient defence. Pity she just didn’t have the same forethought in actually doing her job!
The police must investigate at speed if there was criminal activity undertaken by senior Post Offices and Fujitsu employees to knowingly misled the vitamins, courts and Parliament to protect the organisations and themselves. This feels like the Hillsborough event where institutions drew ranks to protect individuals who knew the truth and lied. These people destroyed postmasters lives to protect themselves and this cannot be allowed. Its too easy to kick these things into the long grass as clearly this has been happening for years. The Horizon project rollout started in 1999 so the planning,design of the solution would have taken many years, so ALL the previous Heads of the Post Office (and ICL/Fujitsu) need to be investigated not just Paula Vennells 2010-2019 but also Adam Crozier 2003-2010 etc. when these prosecutions started to happen. The current inquiry to compensation for the postmasters is a completely separate matter.
When asked the question "where did the money go" I've heard lots of people saying that it ended up in the profits of the Post Office. I've not heard anyone suggesting that there is deliberate fraud involved. That seems at least as likely to me, and most certainly should be investigated as a possibility.
The Post Office should be nationalized immediately Labour take power. It’s outrageous the Royal Mail is in the hands of a public company, and greedy executives.
Finally prosecute the real criminals the ones that lied and covered up their crimes. And sue the computer company that made up the program. Repay the postmasters for what they paid that they were not having to pay . Pay all the legal cost for court cases. And pay back all lost wages
Those managers at the PO that signed off the procedures MUST have known what was going on and that it was wrong that so many POs were involved, and that it was not the fault of the accused PO owners. I wonder just how much those criminal managers paid themselves in bonuses during all these years. My heart goes out to the people who were victimised, I am glad the truth is now coming out. It just goes to show how much integrity and resilience the victims show.
I’ve heard the Japanese company who sold the system to the Post Office, said the system was good. Why is the government not taking to the company. Are the politicians in there pocket.
Question: it seems that po was less interested in the money recovery and more interested in penalising those subpos who sought to raise the involvement of horizon as the reason for the mis- balances. Given that, was there some clause in the original contract between post and FUJITSU that obliged/explains why po were so relentless against those subpos who dared to ask for horizon info/implicate horizon in the problems they were facing???? Has this been explored at all??
For me and it appears everyone else JUSTICE not just prompt recompense is essential for our institutions to be trusted. In recent years so many leaders of corporations have got away with questionable business operations without any consequences. This is the most social and moral spotlight on the need for the personal responsibilities of company executives and their accountability.
I think this demonstrates the down-side of relying too much on technology! At least us humans can eventually spot mistakes, whereas machines that are faulty will always hide errors until it's too late. I wish my bank would make an error and add a few noughts at the end of the total! The problem is that because we mistakenly believe machines can't be faultless but people can, we then automatically presume the operator to be at fault and not the machine. Perhaps this is a lesson in regards to technology and especially AI as to how vulnerable this makes us when we depend on them too heavily? It's truly shocking how the Royal Mail and the Government have behaved and tragic for all those who have suffered.
It great Rishi Sunak is outraged and going to do something about this scandal. But where was his outrage 12 months ago, or 6 or even 3? It took a tv show and public anger before he acted. His govt has known about this, and yet he has shown no proactivity at all. He just follows everyone else.
The whole saga has been a disgrace and what is more galling is that sub postmasters who have been wronged are still waiting for compensation. The other thing that is galling is the media silence until the ITV drama. I have no doubt at all that this story will be forgotten by the media in a few weeks including Times Radio. If Times Radio really care about this scandal it will continue to headline the scandal and keep it in the news on a regular basis but that is not going to happen, is it Times Radio?
In my opinion the Post Office should be charged with manslaughter (some SPMs took their own lives), perjury, presenting to a court of law false evidence, pursuing a malicious complaint, perverting the course of justice, demanding money with menaces, bringing the name of the Post Office into disrepute, theft, false accounting (failure to carry out due diligence), failing to properly investigate concerns raised by employees, not following correct procedures when investigating a cash discrepancy, etc What now with the Post Office? With people not buying stamps as we send emails, state pensions are now paid directly into bank accounts as are other payments, postal orders are a thing of the past, telegrams are replaced by text messaging etc. etc. the need for post offices have been diminishing, now they have lost the trust of the general public, even with a new management it will take years to repair the damage. The poor sub-postmasters, honest hardworking people robbed of their dignity and their status in society by a once trusted organisation who have acted in the same manner as a dictatorial state.
If you think the way the PO is portrayed as nasty and thuggish in the recent drama is exaggerated - just ask your postie what sort of things the PO tried to put on their staff during the recent period when postal workers were on strike. Almost unbelievably inhuman.
The PO should be prosecuted and individuals within it should face prosecution along with the establishment who were happy to let it happen THE WHOLE POLITICAL SYSTEM IS CORRUPT FROM TOP TO BOTTOM
The Post Office hierarchy would have known that the discrepencies rose (not isolated cases) within weeks/months of Horizon going live. The Post Office should pay back with interest every penny they stole from innocent sub post masters.
The more I hear these stories, the more rage I feel… and I am not a victim! This is beyond outrageous. The Post Office has acted criminally. Their actions have stolen people’s liberty, ruined lives and reputations, and even led to people’s deaths. There MUST be a reckoning for this.
I’m glad I am not the only one incandescent with rage about all this. I think part of it is that the Post Office used to be one of those quintessentially British institutions that kind of made me feel proud and grateful as a British person. The fact that the people in charge have just been allowed to get away with this is infuriating.
I feel the same . It’s truly horrific and all the people at the top should be in prison. But I fear this is going to run for another decade or more.
It is not "the post office", that have done this but managers running the post office who are to blame.I would guess that all enquiries etc will skid over responsibility and white wash those responsible.
I just sat and cried throughout the entire drama. I felt so sorry for the innocent people who literally had nowhere to turn and some of them went to prison. It is the worst type of abuse by a Government Agency and needs to be investigated for Fraud. I hope the Postmaster’s compensation reflects their suffering and humiliation from the Post Office Management.
I know it’s a cliché, but in some ways (though definitely not others) we’re all victims. A vicious, almost unbelievable injustice has been knowingly committed against people like us, and, for as long as there is not real, substantial, and very public accountability for the perpetrators, they will feel like they can do it again, to any of us, with impunity, whenever it suits them.
How afraid, or otherwise, these actors are of the consequences when they do wrong affects us all. They weren’t nearly afraid enough in this case. Let us fervently hope that by the time the dust settles on this issue, they are more afraid than ever before.
The fact that they stood up in court and lied is egregious. Heads need to roll for this! I am so tired of people in this country just allowing people in the establishment to get away with things that are downright wrong.
The more I look at this situation it seems like a reflection of the decline of our country. All our institutions are corrupt and the powers that be don’t even care that they are! Imagine knowing all this is happening in one of our most trusted institutions and just being ok with it! There needs to be drastic change in this country.
Good luck with that.
He needs to be reimbursed by millions! And his town needs to have a penance service and everyone personally apologize to him. What a horrific situation and horrible people!!
I have followed the Post Office 'Horizon' scandal for many years and the more I hear from the sub postmasters affected by this, the more it sickens and enrages me. ALL of those that allowed this travesty to 'be' need to be named, shamed and sent to prison.
I've also followed this scandal for many years and it didn't take a genius to start to question the link between the computer system and the sudden cash discrepancies. That none of the people responsible for the this atrocity have been prosecuted is an affront to so called Justice and the people that they persecuted.
I work in programming and software engineering the gaslighting and arrogance from the executives sends a shiver down my spine, Kafka esque doesn’t even do it justice
That's what I don't understand about this. Even back in 1999, all it should have taken would be a few good software engineers to look over the code and fix it. Did the government even do this?
The fact that the Post Office decided immediately to put all their trust in a Big Company with new IT, rather than stand by their own Workforce, who have a Great deal of Experience and Loyalty combined. These Victims of Crime, must all get the Justice they whole heartedly deserve. 🇬🇧💷⚖️
And, it seems, did not even question their 'corrupt/ed software'.
It is strange none of the Judges questioned what the prosecutions were based on.
Or retrospectively looked back at what they subsequently knew were convictions based on perjured and false testimony under oath.
The judiciary is as unfit for purpose as the rest of them....
"Post Office under criminal investigation"...... about bloody time!
Yep.
Well said
is it in the bag tho?
Only taken 2 decades to get their arses into gear.
The people who abused these people MUST have the moral conviction to face them and apologise.
They need to be held accountable for the lives ruined and those lost.
total scandal
🦉🐯 Paula Vennells, who served as Post Office CEO from 2012 to 2019, ran this firm whilst it routinely denied there were problems with its Horizon IT system, she knew the issues and she lied, even “stealing” sub-postmasters personal money to “cover” their loses, and imprisoning innocent people, people, real people! The ones that are responsible have to face prison themselves, Paula Vennells needs to be on trial! As for the lawyers being awarded £321,000 by a judge for costs, well I doubt someone representing themselves get such an “award”.
for work for the post office! Beyond all belief that this woman was held in high enough regsrd to be given an honour after this scandal.......im spitting feathers over this.
Btw jo pleaded guilty to avoid prison.... she was scared stiff!
and can you blame her? @@fatwalletboy2
These criminals in corporate world should be made to pay for their actions, they knew exactly what they were doing. 🇬🇧
This government drag their feet at paying back, and compensation to people who have been hurt with not just this miscarriage of justice but many others too, when they easily pay out millions to their cronies. My heart goes out to Lee and all the other people who have been scammed by the PO/ our government.
THAT is the fact, and well put.
Michele Mone and her husband’s profiteering from their C-19, garbage, “PPE” sales scam to the NHS, putting first responders and hospital workers’ lives at risk…Who knows the full ramifications of their actions? It’s impossible to truly enumerate and that’s what gives her cover.
How many died before the problems with the kit they supplied were discovered?….And she sits in the House of Lords?
She’s a complete and utter disgrace. She cheapens the air she breathes in the House. She needs to go, the sooner the better.
The social damage caused by privatisation is never ending.
These people should be compensated to the point that they never have to worry about money again for the rest of their lives.
Never bend over for the soap in a Tory shower..
business ethics - we're all on this together
The Post Office (Post Office Counters) has not been privatised. Only Royal Mail has been privatised. They are now separate organisations.
Prosecutions MUST follow..... and the executives deserve life in prison.
A mate of mine was also a Sub-Postmaster in a small coastal village, and his dad before him.
He was similarly accused of cooking the books in exactly the same way and for the same given reasons as the interviewee, new software rollout followed by booked cash “disappearing” before his eyes.
Knowing him and his family for over 40 years I have to say that there’s absolutely no way in creation that he’d have done what he was accused of, no chance.
He eventually managed to establish his innocence through beginning a regime of two hourly accounts reconciliations, filming the onscreen data, working late nights checking and rechecking while recording everything meticulously.
Following the 2 years of unbelievable strife that he went through, his lifetime of faith in the organisation was pretty much shredded.
Then the rollout of shutdowns really started happening and he got leant on harder and harder to throw the towel in and just take the lousy offer he was being made to give the office up.
Eventually he gave in and let it go, it broke him.
Do you think there was a concerted effort to get rid of the small post offices and this was part of the plan…or was the computer glitches just coincidental?
@@bobwishart8780 “Never ascribe to malice what can be explained by incompetence.” There was plenty of malice the further along this whole thing went, but I don’t believe that this was a planned thing. Software is difficult, bugs are normal, but the Post Office was too arrogant and proud to admit that there could have been a mistake.
Terrible!
😢😢😢😢😢
@@bobwishart8780I’ve been thinking this, it seems like too much of a perfect storm for the Tories and their austerity ideology, no?
Small minded people , parents, taught their kids to bully other kids. You know who you are.
Problem is the judges were not impartial accepting without question the PO assertions. They must also be investigated for corruption.
You are right about the judiciary , in this case they appear to be lacking impartiality, I suspect on instructions from the government, ie, back the PO to the hilt , this entire episode goes deeper than just the Post Office , the government are the major shareholders of this organisation and by way of votes and finance we the much despised general public are the actual owners , given that the government and it's lackies in the civil service have a duty to listen and enact the wishes of the public , the very idea of such a thing is anathema to our so called public servants and will almost certainly on be acted upon.
I said the same thing yesterday, surely a judge with think….hang on??? I am watching the inquiry, and most of the people who continued to perpetrate the lies & prosecution of innocent people infuriates me. This poor man & his family deserves to be recompensed fully + more, but it will never repair the damage that has been done😔
The bosses at this time must pay criminally for this - there MUST be prison sentances - long ones.
free assange wich
Paula vennells needs a criminal investigation as do here other companies and ventures hopefully one of our intelligence services will do the right thing as people would for them if in the same spot!
what a Kafkaesque nightmare this was and still no accountability!
brown pill blue pill
I am outraged that public money was used to prosecute these hundreds of innocent people.
Rishi then gave the PO lots of taxpayer's cash to pay off the victims.
How can you "pay money back" to the Post Office when it was never stolen in the first place?
financial accountancy. how else?
@@gavinmc5285 Fraudulent accountancy?
It's called using the same tactics as the Mafia did.
They're no better than the Mafia.
Fraud is a diversion and a very odd charge to pursue. We have seen easily proved examples of perjury and a conspiracy to pervert the course of justice in these cases and that is what the charges should be.
fraud-128
With up to a thousand convictions based on repeating the same lie it does seem incredible that no one has been charged.
Isn't the fact that the PO told every individual who phoned the 'help line' thet they were the only person who had encountered problems fraud?
Please expand Fraud 128 ? @@gavinmc5285
The stipulation in the contract that they had to cover losses personally, and then the computer system not working properly, sounds like a set up to me. It has taken far too long to sort this out. Post Office bullies! This is heart-breaking.
Adam crozier was the post office ceo before Paula Vennalls he needs to be held to account when he left the post office he took up a high profile position with itv unsurprisingly he was not included in the itv program. Investigate Adam Crozier now
What a amazing gentleman. Please everyone help him who can, everyone at the post office scandal should be in jail right now. Disgusting. Post office needs to be disbanded.
What I fear will happen is that they'll find a few mid ranking PO and Fujitsu people and throw them under the bus, and all of the senior managers will just get a slap on the wrist.
I've been following this scandal for many years now and I can't tell you how angry and ashamed I am of being English. Governments of all shades have dragged their feet and kicked the can down the road from the beginning..The Post Office, Fujitsu and The Government all share responsibility for this utter catastrophey. Compensation and accountability are all well overdue!
All I can say is I’am sorry for what happened to the man and his family!
The PO should be liable to pay him the £300k + 20 years of interest back - as a minimum - and irrespective of him being bankrupted by the debt.
@@theresearcher253 I agree and he should sue the people who did this to him and his family.
So true… there are no words for this abomination of egotism and basically nothing less than evil
Surely it should be termed "Malicious Prosecutions".
A scandalous witch-hunt with disastrous personal, human and social consequences. Can't understand how such criminal misjugements can take place in a modern society. And the responsible is probably sitting in the house of Lords...
‘Twas ever thus.
Yes. Terrifying!
Not sure who is sitting in the House of Lords ? I have been watching the scandal for over ten years and it does not resonate with me. PV is a Dame.
@@doughill1945maybe he meant “the house of the Lord”?
@@bobwishart8780 could be. Thanks
Endless respect to Lee
Heads need to roll for this travesty and not able to hide behind a company. The people in charge made these decisions and lied in court...that's criminal.
This is tragic ….. someone needs to be accountable for this terrible injustice
Surely the first thing the Post Office has to do NOW is to reimburse all the postmasters or their descendents with the money they stole with appropriate interest payments. After all it is still the postmasters' personal money.
it should also be remembered that adam crozier oversaw this for several years before vennels took over, he should get his collar felt too
Thank you for highlighting these terrible injustices again!!
Please don't stop until sub-postmasters have been recompensed!!!
When corporations are held criminally accountable….. nothing will change, Only when the directors and CEOs who dictate policy are held criminally accountable will things change
"It's easier to fool someone than to later convince them they've been fooled".
I feel devastated for the sub contractors their families the disgusting behaviour from the gov down to the post office continues to not answer honestly & only say sorry after 20 years 😡
Lee my heart bleeds for you, your wife and children. Fight the good fight my friend and as a British tax payer who owns the post office I am so sorry .
The Post Office should be prosecuted also and as a matter of priority for the fraud and theft that lost the postmasters and mistresses their livelihoods, homes and reputations.
A sad (and infuriating) thing amongst admittedly loads of sad things about this case is that this is not a surprise, time and time again the establishment tries to crush the little people then closes ranks and not one person is ever held to account.
The Post Office needs breaking up so this type of state fund monopoly can never again destroy so many people's lives.
The management of the Post Office from 2003 onwards should brought to book. They were completely at fault. Their lawyers were mislead,but that doesn't let them out of this scandal. They didn't do due diligence.
How has it taken the Met Police so long to act?. What have they doing all this time?
The whole scandal is so horrendous. The Government owned the Post Office,so they're culpable as well .
The Sub-Postmasters should have legal and financial backing to bring charges against all those at The Post Office,who engineered this disgusting situation.
About time postal workers said this when it first happened. That woman should be in prision never mind her award. Also where were the unions so much for paying fees each week.
"Justice delayed is justice denied" means that if legal redress to an injured party is available, but is not forthcoming in a timely fashion, it is effectively the same as having no remedy at all. And unfortunately, for too many sub-postmasters, that is the reality, especially for those who have died, killed themselves, suffered illness, or have a criminal stain on their record. No amount of delayed compensation after 20 years will make much of a difference to that.
100% correct sir
The absolute base line of compensation should be the full amount that they were accused of stealing, especially as the money effectively was never missing in the first place, , it should also include any interst on the monies that they paid the post office. Then, real compensation should be awarded for all other losses as a result of this mafia like action.
Surely there must be legal action taken against individuals in this discraceful debacle, dont let them hide behind 'corporate identity'!
Does anyone know the average rate of fraud, or number of postmasters and postmistresses accused BEFORE the introduction of the new computer system? Surely this would give an indication of what was going on.
Didn’t suit the overall goal of the post office corporations bottom line turning a profit, your question is far too logical for these thugs to follow.
it was around 5 - 6 people per year which were prosecuted and after the new system launched it shot up to 50 - 60 per year. The post office argued the system uncovered fraud that the previous system didnt....
Exactly. Post Office executives had a duty to monitor fraud and had that been done professionally and properly then an anomalous increase in ‘fraud’ rates coincident with the introduction of Horizon would have been obvious. The application of basic statistics would have shown this.
@@rachell3117 If the system was designed to uncover fraud within its own accounting framework, it seems to have been seriously flawed, while the investigators appeared determined to have taken the route of a self-fulfilling prophecy.
The damage to such an old, familiar, trusted brand name of "Post Office" and, by association, "Royal Mail" in British society must be incalculable.
sfo-128
No one at the top does time in Britain will be swept under the rug as per
I do hope that the people who gave Lee an his family a hard time spitting an yelling at them now, help them if the Castleton family can forgive them, he was wrongly accused an punished for absolutely nothing but provide a service to the people of Bridlington, well done to Lee and family which is twenty years too late.
The money went to the people in charge to have a nice life style,they should be in prison.
Again we see that people of this country waiting years to get justice for a wrong doing by others that seems will never be found and face justice. What happened to the so-called great justice of this country.Sort this out now these people have suffered anough for two long.
The post office must be stopped from using these lawyers to stop paying these people compo that will never be anough.
The more I hear the more I cant believe it, this is absolutely disgusting
No one can tell me that Paula Vennells was totally to blame, it appears that she was the "fall-guy" at the time she was brought in, the Horizon problem was already very "robust", and the P.O boardroom knew there was a big fan that was going to hit bigtime, they neatly introduced Paula to the $hitstorm, and bless her she didn't have a clue she was manoeuvred so? Then there is the Fujitsu staff, their conduct is also criminal, if it can be shown that they guided some funds into associates or family accounts? If it was that easy to make numbers disappear at one terminal, it would be just as easy to make those "numbers" appear at another terminal, at another post office?
Heat and kitchen come to mind.
Adam Crozier should be there as well. BTW, Vennels took a CBE, a massive pay off and then landed a job in the NHS. Don't feel sorry for her.
Let's see if the victims are compensated before their dearh. A police prosecution would likely take even longer. Posthumously found guilty wouldn't surprise me
The crash of the Post Office Horizon computer system destroyed the lives of 800 sub post masters. 44 years ago, the crash of the Air New Zealand DC-10 aircraft in Antarctica killed 257 souls. Both Post Office in the UK and Air New Zealand were owned 100% by the state.
Post Office executives approved the lying. They blamed the Post Masters for the errors.
Air New Zealand executives lied that the pilots made the errors when it was the company’s mismanagement that caused the crash. By blaming the pilots, the families of the 257 victims were defrauded by the state of New Zealand for the correct compensation. Instead, only NZ$42000 was payable under the Warsaw Convention that applied to pilot error crashes of the time. The NZ government got away with the biggest fraud in the Southern Hemisphere as a result of the Executives lying.
Will the UK government succeed likewise in reducing the reimbursement of the sub postmasters in the UK? Highly likely!
As an "expert witness" and engineering software developer, I can tell you that it is 100% possible to find all the bugs in the Horizon software that ran on the post office users' systems.
And once the bugs have been found, it is also 100% possible to determine EXACTLY how much each PO user account has been ripped off by, as every single transaction was recorded (logged).
Once every single incorrect transaction has been logged, and tallied up with relevant phone call records, where users discussed issues, it'll be possible to prove guilt. Kind of obvious already, but hey.
Then show how much suffering each user had to endure.
The world is becoming more and more technical, and sadly our political rulers are becoming more and more misinformed, relying on 'trusted" technical sources who IMO are not to be trusted.
Always use peer reviewed sources of technical reference, not "mates" who you think you can trust on technical matters.
Please volunteer your expertise, I’m sure you’ll find the answers to the questions everyone wants to know? How did the Post Office get it so wrong??
Only now have the Police acted ,this has gone on for decades the whole justice system is appalling ,the Government has allowed this on their watch
I don't understand how people thought that someone being done for false accounting or theft within the post office translates to stealing from old people, as if they were mugging pensioners for thir pension book.
right wing risers
Wrongdoing means the post office shares should be suspended. Since the money is in the company
how about hermes instead?
Now these RECENT post office recruitment ads make sense. It's PR. I was thinking its been years since I've seen them recruiting. Wow
Significant jail time MUST await the guilty, but as it's the establishment back scratchers, nothing of note will happen.
Even in 1999 all this should have taken is a good team of software engineers too find the code causing the problem, did the government even ask Fujitsu to do that?
If it had happened to me, I would be looking for my pound of flesh.
What does this say about the British Justice System? How come no lawyers or judges connected the dots ? When an anomaly occurs why wasn't it questioned ?
I understand that amounts went into a suspence account that was cleared out after 3 years. If it was cleared that normally means it would go into the profit and loss account. The accountants and auditors should be questioned - they will know the answers! If this is correct. If wrong amounts have gone into the profit and loss account that must be fraud.
I can’t imagine anyone from the post office will ever come to book.
Sincerely, 900 people comiting the same crime and at the same time, software replacement. Comon sense dictates that there is something wrong on the software side...
Can anyone tell me if this faulty computer system was stopped being used. If so why? Was it just happening in certain areas?
The nightmare for the victims is almost over. I hope all who have died are posthumously exonerated.
And that heads will roll.
It is important to know that when all this happens Tthe Subpostoffices were financially suporting the PO. The Crown Offices (The big post offices) were losing money.
Those investigators earned bonuses - they had incentives - for the amount of money they clawed out of people’s hides
There were emails shown at the inquiry, & they were crowing at how well they’d do!
Isn’t is convenient that one of the emails from Vennells was not redacted? So later down the line she can say she asked the question about horizon being able to access these terminals. This will be part of her convenient defence. Pity she just didn’t have the same forethought in actually doing her job!
The police must investigate at speed if there was criminal activity undertaken by senior Post Offices and Fujitsu employees to knowingly misled the vitamins, courts and Parliament to protect the organisations and themselves. This feels like the Hillsborough event where institutions drew ranks to protect individuals who knew the truth and lied. These people destroyed postmasters lives to protect themselves and this cannot be allowed. Its too easy to kick these things into the long grass as clearly this has been happening for years.
The Horizon project rollout started in 1999 so the planning,design of the solution would have taken many years, so ALL the previous Heads of the Post Office (and ICL/Fujitsu) need to be investigated not just Paula Vennells 2010-2019 but also Adam Crozier 2003-2010 etc. when these prosecutions started to happen.
The current inquiry to compensation for the postmasters is a completely separate matter.
Police and speed don't go together
When are the police going to be investigated about Facilitating then protecting Asian Grooming Gangs ?
20 years? A joke isn't it. Scandalous. Apologise and compensate the victims of the PO now.
When asked the question "where did the money go" I've heard lots of people saying that it ended up in the profits of the Post Office. I've not heard anyone suggesting that there is deliberate fraud involved. That seems at least as likely to me, and most certainly should be investigated as a possibility.
The Post Office should be nationalized immediately Labour take power. It’s outrageous the Royal Mail is in the hands of a public company, and greedy executives.
Finally prosecute the real criminals the ones that lied and covered up their crimes. And sue the computer company that made up the program. Repay the postmasters for what they paid that they were not having to pay . Pay all the legal cost for court cases. And pay back all lost wages
Those managers at the PO that signed off the procedures MUST have known what was going on and that it was wrong that so many POs were involved, and that it was not the fault of the accused PO owners. I wonder just how much those criminal managers paid themselves in bonuses during all these years. My heart goes out to the people who were victimised, I am glad the truth is now coming out. It just goes to show how much integrity and resilience the victims show.
I’ve heard the Japanese company who sold the system to the Post Office, said the system was good. Why is the government not taking to the company. Are the politicians in there pocket.
Lee hi, I am so sorry, stay strong.♥️🌻🙏🧑🏻🦼
Question: it seems that po was less interested in the money recovery and more interested in penalising those subpos who sought to raise the involvement of horizon as the reason for the mis- balances. Given that, was there some clause in the original contract between post and FUJITSU that obliged/explains why po were so relentless against those subpos who dared to ask for horizon info/implicate horizon in the problems they were facing???? Has this been explored at all??
For me and it appears everyone else JUSTICE not just prompt recompense is essential for our institutions to be trusted. In recent years so many leaders of corporations have got away with questionable business operations without any consequences. This is the most social and moral spotlight on the need for the personal responsibilities of company executives and their accountability.
I think this demonstrates the down-side of relying too much on technology! At least us humans can eventually spot mistakes, whereas machines that are faulty will always hide errors until it's too late.
I wish my bank would make an error and add a few noughts at the end of the total!
The problem is that because we mistakenly believe machines can't be faultless but people can, we then automatically presume the operator to be at fault and not the machine.
Perhaps this is a lesson in regards to technology and especially AI as to how vulnerable this makes us when we depend on them too heavily?
It's truly shocking how the Royal Mail and the Government have behaved and tragic for all those who have suffered.
Nowadays you could get your phone and film the numbers disapearing.
It great Rishi Sunak is outraged and going to do something about this scandal. But where was his outrage 12 months ago, or 6 or even 3? It took a tv show and public anger before he acted. His govt has known about this, and yet he has shown no proactivity at all. He just follows everyone else.
Don't Trust No One
Everyone after Someone money
The whole saga has been a disgrace and what is more galling is that sub postmasters who have been wronged are still waiting for compensation. The other thing that is galling is the media silence until the ITV drama. I have no doubt at all that this story will be forgotten by the media in a few weeks including Times Radio. If Times Radio really care about this scandal it will continue to headline the scandal and keep it in the news on a regular basis but that is not going to happen, is it Times Radio?
Profit before people
Why does this computer company still have a licence in this country????
In my opinion the Post Office should be charged with manslaughter (some SPMs took their own lives), perjury, presenting to a court of law false evidence, pursuing a malicious complaint, perverting the course of justice, demanding money with menaces, bringing the name of the Post Office into disrepute, theft, false accounting (failure to carry out due diligence), failing to properly investigate concerns raised by employees, not following correct procedures when investigating a cash discrepancy, etc
What now with the Post Office? With people not buying stamps as we send emails, state pensions are now paid directly into bank accounts as are other payments, postal orders are a thing of the past, telegrams are replaced by text messaging etc. etc. the need for post offices have been diminishing, now they have lost the trust of the general public, even with a new management it will take years to repair the damage.
The poor sub-postmasters, honest hardworking people robbed of their dignity and their status in society by a once trusted organisation who have acted in the same manner as a dictatorial state.
If you think the way the PO is portrayed as nasty and thuggish in the recent drama is exaggerated - just ask your postie what sort of things the PO tried to put on their staff during the recent period when postal workers were on strike. Almost unbelievably inhuman.
Just Horrible?
The PO should be prosecuted and individuals within it should face prosecution along with the establishment who were happy to let it happen THE WHOLE POLITICAL SYSTEM IS CORRUPT FROM TOP TO BOTTOM
The Post Office hierarchy would have known that the discrepencies rose (not isolated cases) within weeks/months of Horizon going live.
The Post Office should pay back with interest every penny they stole from innocent sub post masters.
I want to see the people responsible jailed
It's too late for the people who committed suicide isn't it what about them
Anyone who follows history will recognise the parallels with the East India Company. A law unto themselves, they finally had to be dismantled.
Radio Times..... Bridlington is in East Yorkshire NOT North Yorkshire.