So many people seem keen to say that sword & sorcery must only be this or that. I hate that. I love it when a creator can ring some changes that make something that’s fresh and new and yet is clearly part of a great lineage.
I think I may have been the commenter you are thinking about. Though to be clear I said it was debatable not certain that it had to include anti-heroes. I don't claim to know for certain. I was also trying to figure out if my fantasy stories count as S&S. (I've published four fantasy stories for all of ten dollars each.) I actually encountered someone online who looked up to KEW's Kane. That was troubling.
I recently introduced my son to Robert E. Howard, I had him read two stories. Worms of the Earth and Beyond the Black River. He did not like them. He felt it was too fast paced. I was so disappointed. Well we can't all like the same thing.
Fantastic video. Loads of points you raised here could potentially end up being whole discussions on their own, but you definitely summed everything up in a very interesting and informative way. Thanks Michael 👍
Elric is one that came to mind for me, too. He's not so much an anti-hero as he is anti-heroic, if that makes any sense. Unlike most of these other guys, he's physically feeble without the aid of drugs and chronically depressed by being a toy of the gods. Howard's Solomon Kane has no moral failings at all, but he works as a character because of his religious fanaticism, which is the flaw that makes him interesting. About clones: have you ever done an examination of Lin Carter, who has a massive bibliography of several series cloned from popular fantasy fiction? Howard, Burroughs, even Doc Savage...whole shelves of books, none of which is an original concept. It's kind of mind-boggling, but also a little disheartening.
Mmm Sword & Sorcery .. don't think I've read any Kane books, unless there were shorts which may have been in crumbly old foxed fantasy anthology books. Already got my next sword & sorcery adventure lined up, I'll set sail for Melnibone and the young kingdoms in the new year.
if one considers Lord Dunsany as a early creator of sword and sorcery (even thought this term did not exist then yet) then heroes do not need to be morally grey
When Conan was a thief or a criminal he was usually up against villains. Bad people like Yara, Totrasmek, red priest are examples. So i think Conan is a hero.
Love S&S best of fantasy, especially Conan etc. Could never get through a Kane novel. I remember Wizards & Warriors on tv. So disappointing but I still watch it on dvd. Shouldn't do a parody of a genre show before the genre is established on tv.
Michael has said the right words and so I appeared. Oh, sorry. Michael has invoked the sword & sorcery denizens of the web of the world by proper incantations. I agree with you, and these three characters are great examples. Sword and sorcery characters can be many different things, picaresque, evil, good, and out for themselves. Say it louder for those in the back.
Great video MKV! Great insights on Conan as always! (Kane question which seems up for debate...can Kane be killed? He doesn't age, can heal extraordinarily fast from grievous wounds, but can he actually be killed??? )
From his origin story in Genesis 4: "Cain said to the Lord, “My punishment is greater than I can bear. Behold, you have driven me today away from the ground, and from your face I shall be hidden. I shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.” Then the Lord said to him, “Not so! If anyone kills Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold.” And the Lord put a mark on Cain, lest any who found him should attack him." I think it all comes down to what that "mark" entails. It has to be more than just a tattoo!
"David was, according to Scripture, a thoroughgoing scoundrel. You do not have to be a nice guy to be a hero -- it is not even much of a help." -- Jeff Cooper (September, 2003)
Always happy to hear Kane get some attention. One of my favorite Sword and Sorcery characters particularly because he is so despicable and un-Conan like.
Hi Michael. I have a question. I've noticed a picture you have framed on the bookshelf. It appears to be the frontis (spelling?) piece from an old western. If I'm right do you know what book it's from?
How about David Gemmel? Old guy Druss is a moral character. Interesting discussion.Thanks. I agree with your premise. Had a good book haul today. Three Iain Banks UK firsts. 2 Alistair Reynolds UK firsts. Bradbury first. Lots of other cool stuff.
Great topic with far reaching implications beyond S&S and literature in general. First encounter I had with the term "anti-hero" was with Stephen R. Donaldson's character Thomas Covenant. It's funny you opened up with Conan and whether his adventures were "fated". I guess the first Western source of hero comes from Greek myth. Heroes are somehow bound up with the ploys of Gods, so they are "fated", I think. Whether or not Heroes in S&S or Heroes in general have Free Will is a very important question. Did Thomas Covenant's "unbelief" make his choices free? Was his rape of Lena the only "manipulated" (by Foul or the Creator) act in the story or was it the only "free" act? I don't think of Conan as being the epitome of Nietszche's "Overman" who makes his own "meaning", but as an example of "will to power" Conan is definitely narrated as such. However, you cannot deny that Howard also narrated a Hyborian history rife with intrigue, plot and conflicts that Conan was thrust into. Whether he was thrust onto accidentally (free will) or necessarily (fate) is up for debate. As for the hero of "Wizards and Warriors" (I remember cracking up as a kid to that show 😂) or the Heroes of Tolkien I don't consider them Sword & Sorcery. Here's why. There are two general theories of reality science and religion. Science gives man's place in reality as ruled by Evolution or genes (fate). Religion gives man's place as ruled by morality and the "rational" will. I consider all Heroes that have a moral imperative to them, a "chivalric code", of the Tolkienesque type. Aragorn, Eric, Covenant, and the like have cut and dried distinctions between good and evil. Conan, on the other hand, is part of Nature, not spiritually detached by Religion from it. He is just as much a force in his world like the wind or gravity or fire. His instincts rule him with a Urge tied more tightly to Evolution than morality. His humanity is characterized by genetic, survival rather than ruled by moral, honor. Though he has a code, it is a rough one. As for characters such as Elric (of Melnibone) or Cain they are not of Conan's mold. Why? Because they are too wordy. Their internal dialogues are too full of lofty or pretentious excuses. Though I must admit I have not read the Cain stories by Wagner. I imagine they are racked with many moralizing pretexts. In any case the role of the Gods must play a part in determining the character of Heroes. Is Conan a hero? Yes. Like Aragorn, Elric, Hercules, Bink, Thomas Covenant? No. The difference? Moral flaw. There is no sin in Conan. No redemption to achieve.
Like any artistic genre, Sword And Sorcery is a spectrum and you can find stories in which the hero ranges from inflexibly moral to disturbingly self-centred to strictly amoral. Oh how I remember the innumerable Conan clones that appeared in paperback in the 1980s - most were a waste of good newsprint, although occasionally graced by decent cover art.
Not sure why people over think the term sword and sorcery. Just take it literally I say. I thought the only qualification is the author has to have a 3 name (or with middle initial) name.
No one remembers Wizards and Warriors? Rodger your a fool. What are you doing my lord? Updating my book of enemies. I hope I'm not in that book. You Vesper in this book don't be silly it only goes through the m's.
Isn't the other name for Sword and Sorcery, Heroic Fantasy? Seems pretty clear to me that the main character of an S&S story doesn't have to be morally ambiguous if that's the other name for the subgenre. At the same time though, most of the sword and sorcery stories I've read so far do feature main characters that are not classically heroic
Personally, i tend to go with the morally grey characters. But to say, sword and sorcery has to be exactly so is nonsense. I like a fun read and escape from reality for a while, no matter what.
there only one rule. main charater should not marry. so contune to seach new adventures and womens. berserk guts a intresting character. he dont seek women and adventure but cant escape. found eventualy berserker armor to escape. helping weak only delay unavodaible. man has no control, even over his own will.
First I've heard of Howard Andrew Jones and his hero Hanuvar. Must've been popular among sword and sorcery/ heroic fantasy fans in the 1970s. It's a rare protagonist who acts selflessly to free his people from tyranny. 😊⚔️⚔️🗡️
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So many people seem keen to say that sword & sorcery must only be this or that. I hate that. I love it when a creator can ring some changes that make something that’s fresh and new and yet is clearly part of a great lineage.
Thank you Michael for your videos. شكرا لك يا سيد مايكل . I remember the show very well. Greetings from Mesopotamia in the Republic of Iraq
Tales from the Magician's Skull is fantastic!!
Fantastic video, Michael. I love Sword & Sorcery. Conan is the height of it for me as well.
Wow! That Kane book is really expensive.
I remember seeing wizards and warriors. It lasted half a season. It was enjoyable fantasy adventure comedy
I know I have an old Kane paperback somewhere. Just need to find it….
I think I may have been the commenter you are thinking about. Though to be clear I said it was debatable not certain that it had to include anti-heroes. I don't claim to know for certain. I was also trying to figure out if my fantasy stories count as S&S. (I've published four fantasy stories for all of ten dollars each.)
I actually encountered someone online who looked up to KEW's Kane. That was troubling.
I recently introduced my son to Robert E. Howard, I had him read two stories. Worms of the Earth and Beyond the Black River. He did not like them. He felt it was too fast paced. I was so disappointed. Well we can't all like the same thing.
Fantastic video. Loads of points you raised here could potentially end up being whole discussions on their own, but you definitely summed everything up in a very interesting and informative way. Thanks Michael 👍
Elric is one that came to mind for me, too. He's not so much an anti-hero as he is anti-heroic, if that makes any sense. Unlike most of these other guys, he's physically feeble without the aid of drugs and chronically depressed by being a toy of the gods.
Howard's Solomon Kane has no moral failings at all, but he works as a character because of his religious fanaticism, which is the flaw that makes him interesting.
About clones: have you ever done an examination of Lin Carter, who has a massive bibliography of several series cloned from popular fantasy fiction? Howard, Burroughs, even Doc Savage...whole shelves of books, none of which is an original concept. It's kind of mind-boggling, but also a little disheartening.
Excellent and informative overview of the Sword & Sorcery genre.
Mmm Sword & Sorcery .. don't think I've read any Kane books, unless there were shorts which may have been in crumbly old foxed fantasy anthology books.
Already got my next sword & sorcery adventure lined up, I'll set sail for Melnibone and the young kingdoms in the new year.
if one considers Lord Dunsany as a early creator of sword and sorcery (even thought this term did not exist then yet) then heroes do not need to be morally grey
When Conan was a thief or a criminal he was usually up against villains. Bad people like Yara, Totrasmek, red priest are examples. So i think Conan is a hero.
Love S&S best of fantasy, especially Conan etc. Could never get through a Kane novel. I remember Wizards & Warriors on tv. So disappointing but I still watch it on dvd. Shouldn't do a parody of a genre show before the genre is established on tv.
Michael has said the right words and so I appeared.
Oh, sorry. Michael has invoked the sword & sorcery denizens of the web of the world by proper incantations.
I agree with you, and these three characters are great examples. Sword and sorcery characters can be many different things, picaresque, evil, good, and out for themselves. Say it louder for those in the back.
All hail King Liam!
I agree with your main premise which you easily demonstrated...moral ambiguity does not define sword and sorcery
Great video MKV! Great insights on Conan as always! (Kane question which seems up for debate...can Kane be killed? He doesn't age, can heal extraordinarily fast from grievous wounds, but can he actually be killed??? )
From his origin story in Genesis 4: "Cain said to the Lord, “My punishment is greater than I can bear. Behold, you have driven me today away from the ground, and from your face I shall be hidden. I shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.” Then the Lord said to him, “Not so! If anyone kills Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold.” And the Lord put a mark on Cain, lest any who found him should attack him."
I think it all comes down to what that "mark" entails. It has to be more than just a tattoo!
"David was, according to Scripture, a thoroughgoing scoundrel. You do not have to be a nice guy to be a hero -- it is not even much of a help." -- Jeff Cooper (September, 2003)
Always happy to hear Kane get some attention. One of my favorite Sword and Sorcery characters particularly because he is so despicable and un-Conan like.
Conan made a good king because he ruled like the chief of a clan.
Hi Michael. I have a question. I've noticed a picture you have framed on the bookshelf. It appears to be the frontis (spelling?) piece from an old western. If I'm right do you know what book it's from?
How about David Gemmel? Old guy Druss is a moral character.
Interesting discussion.Thanks. I agree with your premise.
Had a good book haul today. Three Iain Banks UK firsts. 2 Alistair Reynolds UK firsts. Bradbury first. Lots of other cool stuff.
Gemmell is awesome.
Great topic with far reaching implications beyond S&S and literature in general.
First encounter I had with the term "anti-hero" was with Stephen R. Donaldson's character Thomas Covenant.
It's funny you opened up with Conan and whether his adventures were "fated". I guess the first Western source of hero comes from Greek myth. Heroes are somehow bound up with the ploys of Gods, so they are "fated", I think.
Whether or not Heroes in S&S or Heroes in general have Free Will is a very important question. Did Thomas Covenant's "unbelief" make his choices free? Was his rape of Lena the only "manipulated" (by Foul or the Creator) act in the story or was it the only "free" act?
I don't think of Conan as being the epitome of Nietszche's "Overman" who makes his own "meaning", but as an example of "will to power" Conan is definitely narrated as such. However, you cannot deny that Howard also narrated a Hyborian history rife with intrigue, plot and conflicts that Conan was thrust into. Whether he was thrust onto accidentally (free will) or necessarily (fate) is up for debate.
As for the hero of "Wizards and Warriors" (I remember cracking up as a kid to that show 😂) or the Heroes of Tolkien I don't consider them Sword & Sorcery.
Here's why. There are two general theories of reality science and religion. Science gives man's place in reality as ruled by Evolution or genes (fate). Religion gives man's place as ruled by morality and the "rational" will. I consider all Heroes that have a moral imperative to them, a "chivalric code", of the Tolkienesque type. Aragorn, Eric, Covenant, and the like have cut and dried distinctions between good and evil. Conan, on the other hand, is part of Nature, not spiritually detached by Religion from it. He is just as much a force in his world like the wind or gravity or fire. His instincts rule him with a Urge tied more tightly to Evolution than morality. His humanity is characterized by genetic, survival rather than ruled by moral, honor. Though he has a code, it is a rough one.
As for characters such as Elric (of Melnibone) or Cain they are not of Conan's mold. Why? Because they are too wordy. Their internal dialogues are too full of lofty or pretentious excuses. Though I must admit I have not read the Cain stories by Wagner. I imagine they are racked with many moralizing pretexts.
In any case the role of the Gods must play a part in determining the character of Heroes. Is Conan a hero? Yes. Like Aragorn, Elric, Hercules, Bink, Thomas Covenant? No. The difference? Moral flaw. There is no sin in Conan. No redemption to achieve.
Like any artistic genre, Sword And Sorcery is a spectrum and you can find stories in which the hero ranges from inflexibly moral to disturbingly self-centred to strictly amoral.
Oh how I remember the innumerable Conan clones that appeared in paperback in the 1980s - most were a waste of good newsprint, although occasionally graced by decent cover art.
What are your thoughts on the attempts to write Conan into the modern/future age?
Can it even be done?
Not sure why people over think the term sword and sorcery. Just take it literally I say. I thought the only qualification is the author has to have a 3 name (or with middle initial) name.
No one remembers Wizards and Warriors? Rodger your a fool.
What are you doing my lord? Updating my book of enemies. I hope I'm not in that book. You Vesper in this book don't be silly it only goes through the m's.
Anti-heroes Sword and Sorcery or dark fantasy they are interesting character you fall in their stories.
Isn't the other name for Sword and Sorcery, Heroic Fantasy? Seems pretty clear to me that the main character of an S&S story doesn't have to be morally ambiguous if that's the other name for the subgenre. At the same time though, most of the sword and sorcery stories I've read so far do feature main characters that are not classically heroic
Personally, i tend to go with the morally grey characters. But to say, sword and sorcery has to be exactly so is nonsense. I like a fun read and escape from reality for a while, no matter what.
Isn’t sword and sorcery usually about one characters adventure whos main weapon is (duh) a sword? While fantasy has a lot of main characters?
So Kane winds up as the antagonist in a Conan story? Who do put your money on?
Conan
I totally agree… real life sucks
Solomon Kane is Sword and Sorcery, but he was not morally grey in any way.
Elric?
I'm never this early , must be sorcery because I don't have a sword by my neck 😂 JK
there only one rule. main charater should not marry. so contune to seach new adventures and womens. berserk guts a intresting character. he dont seek women and adventure but cant escape. found eventualy berserker armor to escape. helping weak only delay unavodaible. man has no control, even over his own will.
😊
Howdy my pals, howdy! Have a super Thursday.
no one remember that show what about Blakes seven
I associate morality grey characters with grimdark , not swords and sorcery
The Beastmaster is a good guy not grey
Why pigeonhole things, so limiting. I thought this was the age of diversity 😊
First I've heard of Howard Andrew Jones and his hero Hanuvar. Must've been popular among sword and sorcery/ heroic fantasy fans in the 1970s. It's a rare protagonist who acts selflessly to free his people from tyranny. 😊⚔️⚔️🗡️