Owning the Airspace: IFR at uncontrolled airport - California Flight Training VLOG - NorCal ATC
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- Опубликовано: 8 фев 2025
- A Great Learning moment during Scenario Based Training!
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VFR Emergency procedures over Silicon Valley!
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IFR approaches to minimums in the Marine Layer Fog!
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FLIGHT CHOPS DISCLAIMER:
I am a "weekend warrior" private pilot, I fly for fun with no intentions of going commercial. I have had my PPL for over 15 years, but still consider each flight a learning experience - I generally take detailed notes after each flight to remind myself what went well or what I could do to improve.... Having the GoPro cameras to record flights like this is invaluable. I find these self analysis videos very helpful in my constant quest to improve, and am happy to share. Feedback is invited; however, please keep it positive.
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He seems like an amazing CFI
Thanks! Yes he is - I am lucky to be able to train with guys like Jason, and Dennis at home - have you seen the videos I have done with him?
FlightChops Oh ya I've seen just about every video you have ever produced and I'm looking forward to 2017 and that video that has the San Francisco international airport flyover👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
Does Jason own/work for a flight school in the area?
You can contact Jason via his link in the description - he runs "the finer points of flying".
Absolutely, the best around I've seen so far. An incredible teacher!
Jason seems like an awesome instructor! Very cool Vid
Love this episode. You're having some amazing adventures, but these types of videos are what get me excited about this channel! Jason is, once again, the best CFI I've seen on RUclips too.
Thanks Chris!
Currently working on my instrument rating. I really appreciate videos like this, giving us a real life perspective of what’s it actually like.
Steve, your videos help more than you might think. Thanks for sharing.
Aviate, navigate, communicate. Last thing I'm concerned about is someone behind me. I'll cancel IFR when I'm good and ready based on the conditions and workload. And to be honest if a pilot came on the radio and asked me to cancel early I'd be miffed. There are a multitude of reasons why I may want to remain with approach.
i wouldn't mind a reminder.
There's no right or wrong answer. We don't know what the other guy was dealing with, and he was well within his rights to cancel on the ground. However 'the finer points' they were talking about include maintaining situational awareness and being courteous to other pilots. So if it's VMC on the approach, it's good to consider canceling ASAP to free up the airspace.
Whenever I breakout into VMC at a non-towered airport and the runway environment is visible, I cancel. There's no need in keeping the airspace closed for other IFR traffic, especially in busy areas like the northeast.
There may be a few personal reasons a pilot may want to stay linked up, but if one can free the airspace as soon as possible, then cancel IFR.
Reminders don't bother either, no biggie.
I get that, seriously. I even thought (when watching this back) .... was I being a dick? But I wanted to make sure that this pilot understood he was holding the airspace so that he didn't do 4 laps in the pattern, then park, go to the bathroom, then the restaurant, then decide to "cancel his flight plan". My point is that at some point it would be rude, no? And perhaps he didn't realize the situation. Perhaps he thought of it more like a VFR flight plan - "I'll get to it ASAP". An analogy to consider would be the student pilot who lands on a 5,000 foot runway. Yes the runway is theirs. No they don't have to exit early. But yes it would be rude to slowly taxi all the way to the end while airplanes behind you have to go around. I would never ask anybody to rush or do things that aren't safe but I did want this pilot to know that with 3 words he could cancel the IFR plan behind him and focus on the landing in front of him. If that was too much work load for him, fine, no prob. Land and then handle it. But I did want to let him know how that works under IFR and, if he's able, he'd be doing us a big favor.
Windtee One thing to note though that as soon as you cancel you have to abide by VFR weather minimums.
"Aviate, Navigate, Communicate." While it's good airmanship to consider those behind you, if altering your actions will jeopardize your safety for the convenience of others, don't do it!
Nice vid Schteevie! Your vids, and many others like them are exposing me to real world experiences and really help get me thinking about how I can become a better pilot myself. Thank you.
+Dion Caramalis - well said, and thanks!
Invaluable service to the GA community..Finer points indeed...
Cool fact about that "little wind of the ocean." It brings the moist ocean air the into the warm, dry central valley and then forces it up the Sierra Nevada mountains. That is why we have almost constant thunderstorm activity in the mountains during the summer.
I would start my PPL tomorrow if I knew Jason was my CFI. Clinical and calm. Thank you for your videos Steve.
outstanding content as always steve.
please keep doing what youre doing ,theres many of us who live off this channel and your videos dont come out often enough for some of us.
good stuff man
fly smart and be safe.
I really appreciate that feedback! Thanks Chris!
I did my IFR training out of Watsonville and they recently changed the minimum vectoring altitude to 2,000 feet, which is below the FAF altitude of 2,200. Makes for some interesting conversations...
Just got my instrument rating in that airplane. It is a wonderful platform with that particular avionics suite. This was an interesting situation that I ran into a lot when working on my rating since the airports I trained around were constantly being bombarded by other aircraft trying to do the same thing I was. You'd think that some of the smaller airports out here in CA would get less busy on a day like this video but sometimes it can seem the exact opposite. WVI especially. Great video Chops! Jason is an absolutely wonderful instructor. I've spoken with him many times and am shooting to take his mountain flying course at some point.
Hey, I soloed at WVI! One of the things we were taught is to not be afraid to go over the mountains and land at South County or Hollister if the marine layer got in before we did. :)
Watsonville! Great to see you at my home airport FC. First thing I'm going to be doing after I get my pilot's license is get my IFR because this fog is brutal over here. Between the strong winds and fog almost all of my late spring lessons have been getting cancelled. Glad to see you working hard on your IFR - great video!
Glad to see more of this type of content! Keep it up Chops :)
Cool yeah, we have more like this coming :)
great video Steve. I look forward to start my IFR training and enjoy watching your IFR learning experience to have a good look at what is coming!
Turning Downwind Hi, see my comment above to 5-0 Aviation. 😎
Your comment got spam filtered for some reason Paul - I have manually approved it and will paste it here below in a minute - hopefully it doesn't get spam filtered even when I post it - RUclips can be "interesting" some times :P
Here is Paul's comment that was spam filtered for some reason:
"5-0 Aviation Hi, don't wait, get a great book like Rod Machado's
Instrument text & Inst Survival Manual and study. The King Course
or Sporty's Instrument video courses are great. Get ASA's Instrument
test question book. Watch You Tube Instrument training videos regularly,
watch/take AOPA ASI courses and FAAsafety.org Wings courses, take the
IFR magazine, etc. Your flight instruction will be so much more
valuable and much shorter. Arrive at 150 hours flight time ready to
train with your instructor after you have done the following: you can
get a pilot friend as a safety pilot and fly with foggles/hood and get
Instrument flight time and practice doing holds, descents and
approaches; you need a minimum of 20 hours with an instructor, but the
other can be on a qualified simulator which is much cheaper and just as
valuable; you can even get experience using FSX or X-Plane as practice
on your own, but the hours don't count. You do not need an instructor
to practice IFR approaches, so the more you do now, the better you will
be when you start paying. Call up ATC and ask for a request, when they
come back say you'd like to fly a practice ILS or GPS approach (VFR, of
course & towered or non-towered) to an airport, with a safety pilot
and hood, or by yourself without foggles; you can do approaches at
Non-towered airports any time the traffic is slow, or at night VFR. You
can split flight time with a friend and both get 'cockpit' experience at
half the cost being each other's safety pilots. Sporty's or the King
School can give you the knowledge test endorsement, too! Get your
calculator and/or E6B and start practicing on problems. Guess what I
did with all my updated knowledge? I stepped in and took the Advanced
Ground Instructor and Instrument Ground Instructor tests (you do not
need an instructor's endorsement & there is no practical FAA oral!)
and got those ratings! You just go to your instructor or a designated
examiner and bring your test score record and do the IACRA form which
you start online with your login ahead of that appointment. Start
today!"
Finer points and flight chops...great video.
Thank you,
Take care,
Be safe.
Love the channel Steve keep it up. Also really like Jason's teaching style. Great stuff!
Thanks! and I'll pass that along to Jason.
Thanks Todd
Another great video. I can't wait for my IFR training.
On the comment on the video about the incoming IFR ATC "hands control of the airspace over to you". Unless I'm missing something, that's only in the context of IFR, so if you're IFR into an airport with VFR conditions, you still need to cordinate with VFR traffic in the pattern.
If you are flying down to minimums on short final I understand not cancelling until on the ground. I also would not cancel if it was a circling approach and there was a bkn/sct layer around that could make me lose sight of the runway environment. Otherwise go visual, stay visual, and cancel IFR so others can get cleared through. This is safe and respectful of others who are using the uncontrolled field.
Another great one, Steve! Looking forward to everything you're bringing in 2017!
Awesome instructor. Sweet video.
Cool! At my home airport and where I learned to fly. Great video!
You're lucky to have such a great area to fly! I look forward to coming back!
I can't imagine having an unknown voice ask me to cancel my IFR during the touchdown phase of an approach to near minimums.
+Tom K yes agreed. But in this case we were fairly certain it was VFR with in 5 miles of the field, but your point is valid
The Finer Points if you know the field was IFR and the wx reported fog, why would you consider him staying in the pattern. As an instructor flying the airplane safely comes first, not flight training. Think of what YOU could have done to make this better. Ask for delay vectors? Something every instrument student should learn, if you're not ready, ask for more time.
Justin Outten because they were the only plane in the sky and didn't want to delay themselves and miss the fog. It's always better to sacrifice the safety of others so that you aren't slightly inconvenienced.
I would be happy to cancel IFR in VFR weather when on the approach! It's just good airmanship. In Canada it's pretty easy too, we cancel IFR but maintain alerting services, and then cancel those once on the ground.
My home field! Runway 02 is ILS approach but is opposite normal pattern, usually small biz jets landing that way, makes for fun times at an uncontrolled airport :) If you want to have some fun, land at CA66 right on the coast. PM me for more details.
Awesome instruction. Will for sure be checking out his podcast!
That's so cool. WVI is my local airport. Great video!
Love KMRY. Grew up in Monterey and came back to goto College there.
Nicely done sir! I wish I would have had videos like this when I was doing my instrument rating. Good luck... Cheers!
I would love to see a video detailing what needs to be done by a Canadian Pilot to fly in the states, and/or vice versa.
Yes, this is worth exploring.
The main weird technicality is that although U.S. Pilots can fly into Canada all day long, and Canadian pilots can do the same, but the catch is, the pilots must be flying aircraft registered in their own county. It is weird, but that's the reality. So as a Canadian pilot, I got the FAA PPL as well, which allows me to act as PIC in an N registered (U.S. based) plane.
FlightChops Good to know. After watching a ton of youtube videos based out of the states, it looks like they have a pretty fantastic aviation community. Glad to know they keep it reasonably simple.
Thanks for the response!
Other than that I think it was slightly rude to request the other pilot Cancel his IFR, your CFI looks like great fun to fly with
One wonder what was the way that was done when there wasn't any of this type of GPS. flight navigation assisted screens?? I mean awesome training IFR video and specially something that I'm trying to get use to is the way how the talk on to the radio is been done... but one wonder... how grand pa and grand grandpa!! use to do this!!
This is so cool, I just got my PPL and just landed my first ILS approach and landing :) Should have my instrument rating by May 19th
That Forflight screen is really really neat to see. It'd be a horrible waste for me to get it just for flight sims (because there's no way I can pass FAA med with my eyesight, so no real airplanes) but oh would I LOOOOOVE to plug that thing into X-Plane, because it's extremely nice to be able to just look up the airspace maps like that.
Great video as always!!
Excellent
Amazingly educational. Thank you!
Great video! I'm working on my IFR as well and wish I had the knowledge your CFII has. Maybe someday...
love your vids, keep it up✈🛬🛩
thanks!
Steve, if you are going to learn, or improve IFR proficiency, you can't let Jason do some of the processes, or the ATC contacts. He can advise you, but you should do all you can, unless you aren't safe. I know you are that competent. Jason's dialog was great, but when he does processes, it takes away from your PIC needed duties; when you go again, you have a better chance of getting behind the airplane if you then have to do it all, like you have with Dennis.
Paul Bergman I completely agree with you. The instructor was showing off because he knew he was getting filmed. In my IFR training it was me asking my instructor to reduce my workload when I felt a bit overwhelmed, for example by working on the radio. This is not how IR training should be done.
+Paul Bergman - thanks Paul, yes for sure I intend to do more / most of the work on future lessons - this was my 2nd IFR lesson in over a year (after another huge break) and it was an unfamiliar area and plane honestly (I hadn't flown anything other than Chipmunk and Stearman the past season) so our briefing was that he would do the radios and treat this one as more of a talk through.
+Amedeo Fasano - he wasn't "showing off" he was helping me make a film to share about the process - it is also edited down from over an hour to 16 mins - that is why I added the big full screen disclaimer saying the video was not meant for training - I cut out dead air and many parts where I was doing more, because of what I found to be the valuable learning moments to share in this one. Regardless, it was my first IFR lesson in ages; future lessons I will take on more of the work load.
Hey Amedeo, really not showing off here. The camera was the last thing I was thinking about. The truth is this was only my 2nd IFR flight with Steve and I was "demonstrating" how I want him to think about IFR flying and how to process an IFR flight. That is why I was all over it. As time goes on ... Steve takes over and I do a lot less. :)
A six pack with no HSI is the new "old school" 😂. Did it have an ADF?
Really enjoy all of your videos! I Just received my PPL and I'm hoping to incorporate your debriefing techniques by recording my own flights. Keep the content coming with the IFR training it's very informational.#BoseA20
Yeah, I want Jason as an instructor... gotta move to SF :D
Stay grinding, and it’s just a matter of time before you channel pops (:
To be honest in the end it’s all about airmanship he could have informed the atc
Jason seems like a knowledgeable guy and I have picked up on some things he has said to pass on to students. While saying that the way he called up on CTAF to tell the person he would like for them to cancel was very unprofessional. Welcome to flying IFR in the real world. You are not always number 1 and sometimes you get vectored, told to hold, told to keep you speed up as fast as practical, as slow as practical. I doubt the person in the Skylane was purposefully holding you up. It is the pilots discretion to cancel when they determine they can and it is safe to do so. When flying with two pilots it makes it easier because one can handle the radios while the other flies, when single pilot sometimes it is not practical to break out, manage yourself with others in the pattern, fly the airplane, and then switch frequencies to cancel your IFR clearance.
reeeeeee
Can you add subtitles for the atc on the ifr training flights it would make it so much easier to understand what was happening
Thanks for the feedback. I have considered that in several cases.. but the work to do it is prohibitive to do it on my end, and if I did do it, I'd have to burn in the text, which would be a visual mess for those that are able to pick it up. I suggest either turning on the RUclips CC to see if that works (not likely as it will probably misinterpret things) or rewind and review to learn how to hear it at speed... ultimately that is what will help you learn to hear it in real time. you can also listen to LiveATC dot net for free any time and listen to real world ATC from most airports - it is a cool way to learn it.
Im exhausted. Flying is alot of work and most people dont realize that.
Thank you for this :)
Seems like the guy in front was prioritizing. Aviate, Navigate, then Communicate. It's hard to say when to "give back" especially if he was practicing too.
+AllWayzSomethin - agreed
I have a question, if you don't mind. In this video, you're flying over/through a very low fog layer, with visibility returning only relatively low to the ground, in a single-engine plane. What was your plan for engine failure? I'm not sure if I'd feel comfortable having to find a place to land when emerging below such low fog, so I wonder if you had something in mind?
Not criticizing; I'm just curious what you think of this. It's something I've been wondering about for doing IFR in a single-engine plane.
Dilandau3000 agreed. Don't shoot approaches over water, that's why circling approaches are useful.
Did you see the part where we addressed that issue in the video? We talked about being miles out over the water and addressed how hard a mission for the Coast Guard it would be to find us under the fog - The answer is, yeah, as we got vectored further and further out, we were not comfortable either.
Another great vid. The 5 Ts are widely taught but I'm not familiar with the 5 As. I caught four of them: ATIS, Approach, Avionics, Airplane. What did I miss? I like this system and plan to add to my own flow.
David Mitchell I believe it's altimeter (set QNH)
If I remember correctly, this is how Jason trains it: ATIS (pick it up), Approach (brief it), avionics (set as needed) altimeter (set as required), airplane (gumps check, etc).
ATIS / ALTIMETER / APPROACH / AVIONICS / AIRPLANE - get the atis, write down the alt (to be put in when cleared for the approach), Brief the approach (and memorize how low : how long : and which way on the missed), confirm avionics set up, do a GUMPS check before the FAF
yes, but don't set until cleared for the approach
yes, you remember :)
Would "holding" (VFR holding?) or just running a circuit before the final approach fix reduced the pressure to get clearance before the fix (letting approach know, of course)? Would having less pressure allowed more precision intercepting the final approach fix? Excellent video- and agree with comments - instructor is excellent!
That's what I was thinking. I'm kind of surprised the controller didn't have them hold, but maybe he was busy with other aircraft at other airports. They did get vectored around a bit, I guess the controller thought that would provide enough time to cancel.
The point of vectoring is to adjust the spacing of aircraft. One lap in a standard hold is enough time to land two airliners.
Can you list what the 5 Ts and 5 As are? VFR student pilot wanting to continue on
are you doing an Instrument Rating, how is that going for you
So with how much work there is with IFR is really the only reason to do it either to head towards a career in aviation or to be able to get to where you need to get in “most conditions”?...for instance if you already have a career and money and were just flying for family vacations, recreation etc you would never become IFR Certified because it’s just not worth it?
I need him as an instructor..
Yes, Jason is awesome!
Great vid Steve. One question: did you cancel prior to your turn on the missed? I noticed you didn't reach the missed prior to your turn. Usually on a missed approach you wouldn't turn until at the MAP
+Coastline Aviation we canceled immediately upon commencing the turn - that was where I cut the video off. We didn't want to get any closer to the traffic pattern when we had no intention to land and there were VFR guys doing their thing.
Right on, that's what I figured. Nice video. Just got my IR, I have gotten a similar late IFR clearance from VFR for an approach. Can also sympathize with all the interruptions during the approach brief. Keep the vids coming and good luck on the IR!
Jason is a great instructor! But... Where's Dennis? 🙂
Dennis is still my "at home instructor" :) - I just haven't been flying at home much lately - Don't worry, you'll be seeing a lot more of him soon :)
Thanks! I can't wait to get up to Canada when the weather breaks and fly with Dennis. He's promised me some lessons in the Stearman :))
+FlightChops Thanks for the reply Steve! Seems like a great year is to come!
Seriously. If I'm on an approach to an uncontrolled field, and some A-hole behind me gets on CTAF to tell me to hurry up and cancel IFR, I may just wait a little longer out of spite. That's MY airport! Your spacing behind me on the approach is neither my fault nor my problem.
+Rutherford Debrave - that's why I kept the part about discussing this at the end. Did you watch the whole thing and find nothing else of value? Or was that your only take away from the video?
Yeah. I watched the whole thing. I watch most of your videos. Just thought I'd add my voice to the rest of the comments below. I thought you leaving that part of the video in was the invitation for discussion of that topic. Was I incorrect? Just seemed like a real dick move. One, as a double I, I would never do with a student [however advanced you (Steve) are] on board and listening. Just my $.02 as a pilot and instructor.
Sorry for the delay replying to your reply - the RUclips notification system is terrible for keeping up with sub replies with in comment threads... Anyway, your comment is valid, and yes, I left this in the video to generate discussion. I was just trying to confirm that you watched to the very end where Todd essentially called Jason out on the same thing (although in a less harsh tone) and Jason came around to agree that it is legit, but the lesson still applies as many pilots do not fully understand how the system works, and might take undue extra time, or even forget to cancel IFR.
Below is the reply Jason gave to some one else giving similar feedback:
"I get that, seriously. I even thought (when watching this back) .... was
I being a dick? But I wanted to make sure that this pilot understood he
was holding the airspace so that he didn't do 4 laps in the pattern,
then park, go to the bathroom, then the restaurant, then decide to
"cancel his flight plan". My point is that at some point it would be
rude, no? And perhaps he didn't realize the situation. Perhaps he
thought of it more like a VFR flight plan - "I'll get to it ASAP". An
analogy to consider would be the student pilot who lands on a 5,000 foot
runway. Yes the runway is theirs. No they don't have to exit early. But
yes it would be rude to slowly taxi all the way to the end while
airplanes behind you have to go around. I would never ask anybody to
rush or do things that aren't safe but I did want this pilot to know
that with 3 words he could cancel the IFR plan behind him and focus on
the landing in front of him. If that was too much work load for him,
fine, no prob. Land and then handle it. But I did want to let him know
how that works under IFR and, if he's able, he'd be doing us a big
favor."
I can dig it. And I appreciate the discussion. Really. I'm just trying to speak about the idea that Jason felt it necessary to leave the approach frequency (monitoring or not) and gently remind an instrument rated (presumably) pilot of how the ifr system into a non-controlled field works. Approach has asked him to cancel in the air or on the ground already. Consider: this pilot ahead of youze guyz is a relatively low-time pilot with his/her grandkids on board. Little Billy's gotta pee like a double-dicked racehorse and Bobby Sue's wanting to yak all over the seats. Neither is shutting up about it. The last thing this guy/gal needs to be doing is switching frequencies on short final, breaking concentration during a critical phase of the approach just so you guys can get a practice RNAV! Granted, dude starts doing touch and goes or an unreasonable amount of time goes by (he's cleaning the urine and puke off his new upholstery) and your still hanging in the breeze, well yeah. Some stuff's gonna get said whether on freq or not. That would be unacceptable. Yes, "at some point" it would be rude. But it is at least equally as rude to do what Jason did. Do a hold. Take delaying vectors. Whatever. It's not the end of the world and you're not burning thousands of pounds of A1 every turn in the hold. Relax. And just when I thought it was safe to board the "it was a one time thing and let's forgive Jason because I know I've screwed a ton of stuff up and continue to do so on a daily basis" train, he goes and says basically that a student pilot, a STUDENT PILOT, who lands on a 5,000 ft strip and slowly taxis to the end is being rude! Uganda be joking!!!! Now, he's got beef with a student pilot taxiing of the runway slowly?! I mean, I've seen students do some really asinine things over the years. Some were mine! lol. But to suggest that a student (!!!!) is rude for taking it easy and using ALLLLLLLLLLL the runway is something I simply can't abide. No! It wouldn't be "rude"!!! It's inconvenient. FOR YOU! But it ain't all about you. Ever. Rant over. Thanks again for the vid. I do enjoy your channel.
how do you capture the iPad screen during flight? is that the chesty gopro footage?
Hi, sorry for the delay replying. The cam looking down at the knee
board is a chesty, and we use a laptop in the back seat to capture the
live video feed - it is not an easy set up to manage.
So approach can only have one IFR aircraft at a time coming into a non-controlled field? Why exactly is that?
If the plane was approaching in IMC it would maintain separation from other planes.
Cory Barnwell
Cory Barnwell4 hours ago
It was a non-towered airport. Here's my understanding of it (I'm working on my instrument rating now so take this with a grain of salt). Normally, when making an approach under IFR you are handed over to tower and they are responsible for maintaining separation and sequencing. However, at a non-towered field you will be given approach clearance by center and "handed over" to the CTAF for the airport so you can announce to any VFR traffic what you are doing. The controller will usually say something like "report cancelling IFR or missed approach this frequency" meaning that you should switch from CTAF back to the controller's frequency to cancel IFR. Until you cancel IFR the controller will be unable to clear any other IFR traffic for approaches OR departures to or from that airport. That's why it's good practice to cancel IFR as soon as possible in favorable weather conditions.
So, in summary: the airspace was "given" to the other aircraft because there was no tower controlling the airspace. Therefore, the only way for center to guarantee IFR traffic separation was to have only one aircraft operating IFR at a time. (NOTE: there is no way for center to guarantee separation from VFR traffic which is why you have to switch to the CTAF and coordinate with any VFR traffic in the area). Hope that helps!
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Reply 5
Dulee100 Yes that makes sense! Thank you for the explanation.
I want Jason to be my IFR instructor... only if aye..
Another thought. As you neared the FAF (operating VFR); what was your "plan B" in case you didn't get an IFR clearance? I feel you should have been planning for this to be ahead of the rapidly developing situation. If the approach could be flown clear of clouds, then no problem and no need to ask the other plane to cancel. If you were about to enter cloud, then you should notify ATC you were unable to maintain VFR conditions on the assigned heading.
Thanks Tom, yes, we were easily able to stay VFR up there, and would
have either accepted vectors to re intercept the approach, or stayed VFR
and head home having missed the fog that was rapidly burning off.
Our goal was to get some actual IMC, and as you can see in the video we actually needed to hasten the descent after getting our clearance to be able to enjoy that last bit of fog for some actual IMC practice.
There's some seriously great facial hair in that airplane 👍
OK, now I keep getting mental images of getting flying lessons from Woody Harrelson...
In Europe you can't actually do IFR approaches into uncontrolled airports.
Europe is crazy. Real flying is done in the US. The most open skies in the world.
Yes, because doing IFR approaches into an uncontrolled airport with sunday flyers buzzing around is really safe, right..?
Tjita1 FREEDOM
It works every day over here.
No such thing as uncontrolled airports. Non towered is not the same thing as uncontrolled. You can have non towered in controlled airspace, and towered airports in uncontrolled airspace. 😋
I guess we won't see another IFR vid for a few months...
Edit: Sorry Steve :(
Congrats for getting the first comment on a new video I worked really hard on over the holidays, and making me feel crappy by complaining instantly. I am doing my best to make all sorts of content AND get my rating done.
FlightChops AW HELL NAW MAN, I LOVE UR VIDEOS. I don't mean to get you down, I meant it as a joke. As far as I can tell, your making great progress on the IFR training, and I'm sure ur putting a ton of resources in it for us, your viewers. You have brought more knowledge to me that any other pilot on RUclips never mind inspiring me to get my license down in the US. I'm sorry I made you feel crappy, it's part of my bad sense of humor. The video was great, and I watched it all. Thank you for inspiring me, and the rest of your subscribers.
+Kevin Sisk - thanks for the quick reply, because yeah, the struggle is real. It is a grind to keep up with the "twice per month" publishing schedule. The whole thing is mostly very rewarding, but at times I am completely over extended and exhausted - and over the holidays this year, having a new puppy in the house and being sleep deprived, it was definitely a challenging time to get this video done. There will be more IFR, and if things go the way we are hoping, it might be sooner and more frequent than you think :)
I'm a little confused about what happened? Why was the airport "given" to that other guy?
It was a non-towered airport. Here's my understanding of it (I'm working on my instrument rating now so take this with a grain of salt). Normally, when making an approach under IFR you are handed over to tower and they are responsible for maintaining separation and sequencing. However, at a non-towered field you will be given approach clearance by center and "handed over" to the CTAF for the airport so you can announce to any VFR traffic what you are doing. The controller will usually say something like "report cancelling IFR or missed approach this frequency" meaning that you should switch from CTAF back to the controller's frequency to cancel IFR. Until you cancel IFR the controller will be unable to clear any other IFR traffic for approaches OR departures to or from that airport. That's why it's good practice to cancel IFR as soon as possible in favorable weather conditions.
So, in summary: the airspace was "given" to the other aircraft because there was no tower controlling the airspace. Therefore, the only way for center to guarantee IFR traffic separation was to have only one aircraft operating IFR at a time. (NOTE: there is no way for center to guarantee separation from VFR traffic which is why you have to switch to the CTAF and coordinate with any VFR traffic in the area). Hope that helps!
The IFR guy doesn't get to stop the VFR folks in the pattern. They don't get first dibs just because they're IFR anymore then someone doing a long straight-in VFR approach. Everyone still has to work together and coordinate.
Cory Barnwell, excellent explanation. I think I understand now. it's been so long since I did my instrument, I barely remember these "finer points"
well explained. thank you
Nailed it!
R u going to sun and fun 2017
+Pilot Boy most likely, yes. Hope to see you there.
Someday aliens will land and FlightChops will be left seat.
+Jon Netbotic - I don't know what that means, but I like it.
I could have worded that a little better.
What a gun instructor
"Roger 'that'"? Are you kidding? Sounds like a trucker on CB radio. Drop "that" and you'll sound more like a pilot. Also, knowing the plane ahead hadn't cancelled IFR, the training experience would have been far better had the instructor requested a vector away from the final approach course to alleviate the intense pressure to begin the descent at the FAF. Instead of suggesting an "emergency" descent to 700 feet, it would have been far more responsible to start all over, with or without fog, and digest the procedure rather than swallowing it in a single gulp. This was the first broken link in an accident chain.
The second part of your comment is some good feedback. Unfortunately a fairly negative tone was set by your first sentence.
We're good guys just trying to do something positive for aviation, and we are always open to constructive debate and discussion to grow and improve. I wonder if you'd speak to us this way if we met face to face at an aviation related event? If so, fair enough, and if not, why would you write a comment in a way you wouldn't speak in person?
You are good guys, and your videos have significant merit, but if you are trying to do something positive for aviation, then don't risk influencing an audience in a negative way. Negative tone? After all, you are dealing with an instructor who should know better. His radio calls should be accurate and precise. In addition, after forcing you, unnecessarily, into a "dive bomb" approach to minima, I would consider a new instructor. Viewers, particularly newer pilots, will believe this is how it should be done. As soon as you post a video or blog for a mass audience, you take on an awesome responsibility. Someone will read or hear what you posted and be influenced, particularly when it is the voice of an instructor. Make certain that you are a good influence.
Thanks for being a little more constructive with that more recent comment. And to be clear, it is unavoidable to post videos with out risking some sort of misinterpretation and / or lost context. That is why with any of these ones that could even remotely be seen as training, I disclaim the hell out of them - both in the description, and then more obviously, there is a full screen disclaimer at about the 4 min mark for almost 10 seconds, saying "this video is NOT for training, context is lost in editing, and it is meant to be the start of a conversation to be finished with your instructor". But to be clear, no one forces me to do anything, I did not feel unsafe at any time on this flight and even if you thought we were "dive bombing" it was simply an early descent so I could enjoy some actual IMC on the flight. I am doing the best I can to be a good influence. But if people blindly watch RUclips videos and take them as gospel ignoring disclaimers and failing to seek further context from other sources, I can't protect them from themselves.
Im sorry BUT REALLY? you can not complain about delays on a clearance if you just want to say " oh i dont have to get my clearance on the ground" THAT IS WHY YOU HOLD FOR RELEASE
+iflystuff1 - the lesson here applies regardless. A clearance from the ground is unlikely to get you all the way to your approach which might be hours later. This situation could have still occurred if we got our clearance from the ground, correct?
Lessons are learned every flight, and if you don't then you aren't paying attention. This situation could have occurred yes, but if you are on an IFR clearance from the start then ATC must apply the separation standards at all times. Meaning you more than likely would have been given routing and vectors that would have separated you from the traffic way prior to you reaching the IAF. But because you're just VFR, ATC doesn't really "care" he can let you bumble around and get right up to the FAF before giving you a clearance (if he is going to give you one at all).
iflystuff1 100% agreed. I've never seen something so unprofessional and so I'll advised when anticipating IMC conditions. Trying to cheat he system by taking off VFR to avoid holding for an IFR clearance is unsafe. To have an instructor commend this type of flying is a disgrace. I've seen him teach some extremely valuable lessons, but in this video, his instruction was deplorable.
Below is the reply Jason gave to some one else giving similar feedback
about the "asking some one to cancel IFR issue" - You were not specific
about any other things that you thought were wrong with this video
though - please clarify because generally saying you thought this flight
was unsafe with out specifics is not cool. Jason's reply is pasted
below: "I get that, seriously. I even thought (when watching this back) .... was
I being a dick? But I wanted to make sure that this pilot understood he
was holding the airspace so that he didn't do 4 laps in the pattern,
then park, go to the bathroom, then the restaurant, then decide to
"cancel his flight plan". My point is that at some point it would be
rude, no? And perhaps he didn't realize the situation. Perhaps he
thought of it more like a VFR flight plan - "I'll get to it ASAP". An
analogy to consider would be the student pilot who lands on a 5,000 foot
runway. Yes the runway is theirs. No they don't have to exit early. But
yes it would be rude to slowly taxi all the way to the end while
airplanes behind you have to go around. I would never ask anybody to
rush or do things that aren't safe but I did want this pilot to know
that with 3 words he could cancel the IFR plan behind him and focus on
the landing in front of him. If that was too much work load for him,
fine, no prob. Land and then handle it. But I did want to let him know
how that works under IFR and, if he's able, he'd be doing us a big
favor."
Just a thought on why the pilot in front of you may not have cancelled. You mentioned the fog was burning off quickly. Since he was probably 10 minutes ahead of you, he may have been still dealing with foggy conditions closer to the airport and was concerned about meeting the VFR cloud separation requirement if he cancelled earlier. The FAA has binged a few pilots for this.
Also, Jason's recommendation about picking up a clearance in the air does not work everywhere. On the east coast of the United States you will find it more difficult for a Philly or New York approach controller to let you do an IFR clearance pickup in the air.
couldn't watch it. that music is horrible. irritating
Ah yes, Monterey and Monterey Bay... my old stomping grounds, and where I got my private pilot training. But what I want to say is the following. The more IFR videos I watch on youtube, the *LESS* interested I am in IFR. OTOH, if I lived back east, I would think differently (so differently that I wouldn't bother to fly at all). This does *NOT* mean I have no interest in skills to be able to fly in clouds or fog if someday I manage to get myself trapped. All that sounds wise and prudent to me. However, what I have no interest in is being utterly and totally controlled by "rules" and ATC... with dozens and dozens if not hundreds of little actions I need to remember and follow like an abject slave. The entire notion of being PIC (pilot in command) is a joke in such situation... you have almost zero decisions to make. You aren't in command of anything... except following rules and instructions from some other human who doesn't know your skills, your knowledge, your airplane, the details of your situation or much of anything else. I don't want to be under control of someone who is paying attention to 10 other airplanes!
Having said all the above, I understand this is a matter of personal values and choice. I can *CLEARLY* see that a great many pilots absolutely *LOVE* learning and practicing endless rules, lingo, procedurers... and following orders from ATC. I have absolutely no gripe against that... *to each his own* is how I always think. Furthermore, I can see the reason for at least some of the IFR practices that I see happening in the context of very busy airports with commercial airline flights landing and taking-off every minute or less.
My feeling is... *I want no part of that.* Of course, this is because I fly for enjoyment, for sightseeing... not for learning skills that I'd need to become an airline pilot.
Having said all that, I do want to be able to easily, naturally keep control of the airplane in clouds or fog and never suffer loss of situational awareness or orientation. Also, I do want to be able to take full advantage of GPS, moving maps, synthetic vision and autopilot to fly myself out of IMC if that ever happens to me... which I have always gone to extreme efforts to avoid (and plan to continue such diligence in the future regardless of how spiffy my avionics are now). But... I have far less than zero interest in flying into busy international airports (though I must admit that Monterey airport was pretty damn simple and not very busy when I was flying there). I'll fly to somewhere else. There are probably 100 times as many small airports around, and millions of places I could land if necessary in an airplane that only needs 80 meters to land or take-off (like pretty much every soccer / football / baseball field everywhere, not to mention rural roads)... so finding a place to land and wait if weather unexpectedly goes to hell is a lot easier and possibly safer than IFR into busy airports.
I'm sure a great many IFR pilots with newly minted IFR ratings will jump in to disagree. That's fine, because like I said, these are personal choices. For me, part of flying is the freedom one gets from moving around in 3D. Whatever IFR is... freedom is not one of them, while enslaving oneself to endless rules, procedures and controllers is. Not my idea of fun. Might be yours though. Or might be what you need to learn to get many flying jobs.
PS: The only reason I bother to post this message is... the fact that virtually all messages below IFR videos take the opposite perspective. Which is fine, but that is why I post a different perspective on the topic. VFR... wonderful. IMC... stay away, but be able to cope with IMC reliably if necessary. IFR... that's for other people! :-)
Personally, the instructor has failed you in so many way. Asking someone to cancel IFR during a critical phase of flight in actual IMC. So many things wrong with this that I would take nothing from this lesson as a lot of this is unsafe and behind the aircraft. Never let the airplane get in front of you, regardless if it's VFR or IFR. If you're not given a beacon code and you're coming up on clouds, you're putting yourself in a bad situation. VFR into IMC is no joke as you already know. Disappointed with the CFII in this video.
Below is the reply Jason gave to some one else giving similar feedback
about the "asking some one to cancel IFR issue" - You were not specific
about any other things that you thought were wrong with this video
though - please clarify because generally saying you thought this flight
was unsafe with out specifics is not cool. Jason's reply is pasted
below: "I get that, seriously. I even thought (when watching this back) .... was
I being a dick? But I wanted to make sure that this pilot understood he
was holding the airspace so that he didn't do 4 laps in the pattern,
then park, go to the bathroom, then the restaurant, then decide to
"cancel his flight plan". My point is that at some point it would be
rude, no? And perhaps he didn't realize the situation. Perhaps he
thought of it more like a VFR flight plan - "I'll get to it ASAP". An
analogy to consider would be the student pilot who lands on a 5,000 foot
runway. Yes the runway is theirs. No they don't have to exit early. But
yes it would be rude to slowly taxi all the way to the end while
airplanes behind you have to go around. I would never ask anybody to
rush or do things that aren't safe but I did want this pilot to know
that with 3 words he could cancel the IFR plan behind him and focus on
the landing in front of him. If that was too much work load for him,
fine, no prob. Land and then handle it. But I did want to let him know
how that works under IFR and, if he's able, he'd be doing us a big
favor."
FlightChops I feel a lot of this instructor he gave you in flight should have been done during an oral lesson on the ground. The aircraft, as I'm sure youre IP knows, is the worst class room. You we're already behind the airplane, as was your IP when it came to getting the weather and getting set up for the approach. Already risky in busy airspace in VFR, doing this IFR into a non towered field is even worse. Asking for delay vectors to give yourself separation would have been the smartest thing to do. Not only did you wait until closer than half a mile from the FAF for an IFR clearance, you shot an approach over the water. What justification does any pilot have for flying over the water especially in possible IMC. Engine failures don't happen when it's convenient for you. If you can't shoot the approach safely, don't shoot it at all. If there's a circling approach available (even if you wouldn't have broken out), use it. It would have been a valuable lesson regardless. And approaching a non towered field IFR, it is your responsibility to monitor CTAF just as the AIM recommends. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love your videos and have been following since I was a private pilot, but as a CFI and CFII now, watching this video makes me cringe. Jason has taught you and even me valuable things in other videos, but in this video, I strongly believe the ADM in this video is extremely flawed. But making a video on this could be another learning lesson on where better ADM and CRM could have been useful.
detailed feedback appreciated.
Final thought: I just wanna be clear this is why I added the full screen disclaimer to the ~4 min mark of the video - you are seeing 15 minutes edited from a 1hr + flight - it is hard to fully cover all the context.