Did IKEA Destroy Carpentry And Woodworking?! ("THE IKEA EFFECT"...What It Means For Tradespeople)
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- Опубликовано: 13 июн 2024
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Over the last decade, there has been a drastic sea change in the world of CUSTOM TRIM CARPENTRY + WOODWORKING. This short video from The Honest Carpenter discusses how the industry has been affected by the world's most successful Home Furnishing Company: IKEA.
Did IKEA Destroy Carpentry And Woodworking?! ("THE IKEA EFFECT"...What It Means For Tradespeople)
PLEASE NOTE: This video is not meant as a slanderous attack on Ikea. I state in this video that I still think that Ikea is a remarkable company providing a very valuable service to people.
It's merely my intention to point out that Ikea's profound success has CHANGED both work and life for professional carpenters and woodworkers everywhere.
A noticeable difference occurred in the industry when Ikea began to storm America roughly fifteen years ago--and it only has increased as their presence has continued to grow in the last decade.
Estimates and bids for custom trim carpentry and woodworking in particular have become more difficult than ever, as pro tradespeople struggle to justify their prices to a general public that has grown accustomed to STAGGERINGLY CHEAP home furnishing products from stores like IKEA.
This video is merely a small attempt to level the field for both contractors and clients, who have a desire to work together on these great projects...but stand on opposite sides of a growing gulf of financial misunderstanding.
PLEASE LET ME KNOW WHAT YOU THINK OF IT! I'm especially interested in hearing from your professional tradespeople out there...
The Honest Carpenter 
Хобби
I am just a hobby woodworker. I spent a year designing and building a custom solid oak roll top desk complete with dovetailed drawers and the obligatory secret compartment. I spend many hundreds of hours building this project and was very pleased with the end result that sits in the den of our home. I had a family friend look at it and promptly respond “I don’t know why you would spend a year when IKEA has something just as nice for $100.” I was crushed!!
I agree
Well, That is NOT true! I have never seen at Ikea a roll top desk made from solid Oak for anywhere near $100. That Ikea pricing is way off! Just continue to design and build your own furniture. Your "friend" if thats what he really is, really needs to put his money where his mouth is: I would just say : OK. Heres $100. When can I expect the finished piece? I'll bet he backtracks on his pricing...... The materials are not the same, and there is much more labor involved than the typical "ikea" shopper is actually aware of or wants to admit! IMO, "friends" who are so willing to point you to ikea, are really not people I would like to call "friends" in the first place.
The friend has bad taste. The quality of IKEA furniture has been decreasing fast the last two decades. And you got something unique customised exactly to you, and the satisfaction of doing the work and proving to yourself that you xan do it.
Most people are completely ignorant about what it takes to build anything!
Your friend has no eye?
When I was re-doing a master bathroom, I had a hell of a time trying to find a real craftsman to do the work. I didn't want particle board. I didn't want "cheap". I wanted quality and I was willing to pay for it. "Off the shelf" products didn't fit due to it being a much older home that doesn't fit today's "standards".
Eventually, I found someone to do the work. I got what I wanted and I was so happy with the results, I paid him a bonus. 12 years later, the custom vanity, mirror, medicine cabinet and storage cabinets made of cherry and oak still look like new... because it wasn't "cheap". Nothing "disposable" here.
I am glad you are enjoying your investment, but please keep in mind people are not cheap for picking IKEA, it is because they are poor.
The rise of IKEA type furniture is not from a decrease in standards, is a decrease in average household income.
I am a woodworker myself, and can build oak cabinets, if I can afford the lumber :(
I for one apprciate your attitiude Mr. Brown, thank you.
@@Rasaiel It can be either. There's a lot of people who buy the cheapest thing they can find, regardless of what they could afford, thinking they got a good deal.
How much was it?
@@trevorlambert4226 yeah Ive changed my perspective on IKEA furniture They are a great company but the particle board is not durable and moving around in the military made me understand that a piece from IKEA very rarely will withstand a move. So Now Ive started learning to build and learning how to refinish furniture. Because often times you can find certain pieces that people are trying to get rid of from their grandparents or whenever and it doesnt fit the modern style anymore so they sell it for cheap thinking its worthless but in reality its a great piece that needs a little touch ups here and there and can be reused.
This was literally one of the most articulate, well-informed, informative, and direct videos I've ever seen. 100% on rotten tomatoes says me
lmao wut
“Well informed, informative” Redundant says me.
@@draxxx_exe Redundant? How? "Well informed" describes the presenter. "Informative" describes how much the intended audience has gained from the presentation. I think that if there was a need to comment on the comment it would be the overused word, "literally", but that is just for trolls. Either you agree with the comment or you don't. I agree with the comment. It was very informative and the presenter is very well informed of the presented material speaking from his experience.
Fully agree 100% on rotten tomatoes. Tactful, and kind, as well.
Took a high school class where the teacher was a retired cabinet maker. Hurt himself and had to find another profession, became a teacher. I still have the 2 oak end tables that he had us make in our "Mass production of Wood Products" class. 12 years later they are the only 2 pieces that come with me every time I moved. I wax them like he showed us and takes out the scratches or nicks and they look like the day I made them, minus some yellowing. Loved that class.
EDIT: He had each one of the 20 of us would work a different "job" in the assemble line. We could rotate jobs at the end of every week so we learned every step of the process by the end of it. We made enough so that each person got 2, and we would sell any left over to recoup the costs that the class room would need, ie wood, glue, sharpening blades, stain and w'e else. Again, awesome class.
What a brilliant guy to teach how life works :)
I've been doing hobby woodwork since I was a teenager. I learned a very long time ago that it's nearly impossible to make money doing custom woodwork offered to the general public. Example: Some years ago I built a custom garage door for my house. Many neighbors came around and admired the door, and a number of people inquired about having a custom door made for their house. The talk quickly ending when the topic of price came up. They weren't expecting to pay the same price as they would pay for a fiberglass door from a big-box DIY store, they were expecting to pay LESS. Needless to say, I didn't build a door for anyone else in the 'hood. You can forget trying to make money doing custom woodwork offered to the general public. The only way to make a living in this game it to cultivate an exclusive clientele of wealthy customers, and obtain business by word of mouth.
Yup. I used to make industrial furniture for restaurants. The company I worked for only made money by cutting every corner possible. Pretty sure they lost money on every chair they sold and made the money back with the dining table itself.
With any successful business; you need a business plan and that includes a marketing plan. You don't exclude clients, your marketing plan goes after the Right clients.
Something my boss who is a GC told me as he’s mentoring me is to always be as descriptive as possible in proposals. Most people think it’s just a matter of assembling or building something and installing and that’s it. Then they gasp when you give them a price. As an example when we do cabinet proposals we’ll say “provide wood, cut in shop, glue and assemble take to job site, prepare area, install cabinet cases, add face trim, provide and install slider hardware for drawers, build doors and drawer faces, install knobs or handles, fill pin nail holes with filler, sand down and prep surface, prime, finish paint, clean job site” is a whole lot of more explanatory than “build, install, and paint cabinets”. It may take a little longer but it’s helped the customer understand why something is so expensive and prepare mentally for it, which in turn usually secures the job for us. Just a thought.
That's a very good idea. As a customer I want to know what I'm paying for and also it shows that the person I hired really knows what they are doing.
So true!
When I started, I used to estimate that a 90'x30' cabinet with 8-10 shelf will take 2 days for me to finish.
As I progressed, now I know that cutting the sheets and paining them itself will take 2 days. Assembly of the shelves and frame keeping them square and level will take 2 days :-). Installation is another day
BTW, I am no pro, I am a weekend woodworker working in the garage. But, now my estimates are a lot more accurate than what they used to be.
It is always about communication!!
This is a great point. I'm a homeowner. I recently had a quote done, and while the price is higher than I had in mind (IKEA effect coming in), when the GC laid everything out, I appreciated why it was the cost that it was. Being descriptive (down to "filling holes with putty") allows your potential clients to see the value of your work. Well said!
That is of course, the right way to present the job and it’s cost.
Then again you’ll always have the 1 out of 10 people who’ll take it as a negative…, like you’re charging them for extra for what is obvious.
Thank you for so clearly articulating what puts many of us out of business. I went bankrupt over an eight year span because I failed to charge for 1) look-see 2) planning and drawings 3) shopping for and transporting materials at my low hourly rate 4) severely undervalueing my labor, customer education, research time, etc.
I so appreciate what you have done here.
Yeah...working for free is a great way to ruin a business. It's a learning curve for sure. We can be excellent skilled tradespeople but terrible business people. After 50 years all I can say is you need a smart business plan before ever picking up a hammer. I roll my eyes when people come to me and ask "how much should I charge?"...but....don't want to fill out a daily time card, do the weekly accounting, publish a progress report-; nope, just wanna be that guy making stuff....If you build a house without a foundation, its gonna fall down...so easy to understand, so hard to put into practice.
With so many people out there doing DIY now, you guys ever considered just doing consulting work/selling custom plans for those that have ideas but need help with execution?
It might be a way to still create, use skills, make $$, & whatnot but save some wear & tear on your bodies. Just a thought...
I think you might find a viable income steam once word got out. Just offer plans or consult to those jobs that can't afford custom work 🤔 & word will get around.
Plus, IDK if you're getting older, but maybe if you are, this could make your days a Li'l lighter.
Then again, maybe it's a stupid idea... LOL!
@@leahrowe847 Hi Leah. What an excellent idea. My challenge is selling the idea. My son tells me I under value my knowledge and skill - and he's right. If I had to depend on selling, I'd likely starve to death.
I have often thought, if I could get someone to line up classes, seminars, speaking engagements, etc., I could do THAT part, the DOING part, no problem.
I was a classroom teacher on and off for about 10 years and I did a lot of teaching and mentoring while in the military. Where I need support is in getting an audience. That was one of the reasons I was no good as a realtor.
Thanks again for the idea. I have been drawing plans for projects since high school drafting class. It is easy, for me, to visualize what people want and then draw it out and use the drawings for ordering and cut lists.
We are in the process of moving to a place where, once we settle in, I may be able to do something like what you suggest.
Blessings to you and yours.
You're welcome.
Wish I could find an honest carpenter in my area who'd be willing to help out with projects like that. There's probably plenty, but finding is the key.
We hired a recommended guy who was supposed to be a bonded carpenter (boy did we learn about terms from that experience), & he really stiffed us on the job. Luckily, we told the guy upfront he wasn't getting paid unless he finished the work; otherwise we'd have been out thousands, as he just never showed up.
We're now educating ourselves (albeit slowly), buying tools, & learning to tackle projects as DIY instead of trying to find someone else. Seems guys only want big jobs, not a bunch of Li'l ones, even if we can supply them with several hrs/days of work each month done on their schedule.
Now, our main problem is designing, ensuring the build is spatially accurate, deciding how to cut wood (so we're not wasting expensive product), & knowing what fasteners/adhesives to use & when. At least me & my girls all took advanced Math (which let's face it we'd never thought we'd use again), but geometry, algebra, calculus, etc is sure com'n in handy.
Looking back, I only wish I'd have taken woodshop instead of Band all 4 yrs of high school~ seems like it would've served me & mine better in the long run... LOL!
@@leahrowe847 Given the access we have to online face to face meetings, there mat be a way to receive the kind of information you want.
One of the things I found essential to working my customers was to educate them as to the scope of the projects with which they wanted help.
Listening to them was and is crucial. Having clear communication and clear expectations is essential.
I refuse to give bids, especially with remodeling or repair work. Time and materials only. That retained the flexibility so important with those types of jobs. I offered good faith estimates.
For many jobs, once I understood what they wanted, I drew up basic plans, got approval to purchase and did the shopping. I put skin in the game. Helps to build trust. When there's no or little trust, it makes for a miserable experience.
Clear, honest, and open communication is key.
I never understood the meme of ikea furniture being difficult to put together. Its pretty straight forward. I guess the people that find ikea furniture difficult to put together are the same people that don’t understand the difference between small one off craftsmanship vs gigantic optimized manufacturing complex.
I've used Ikea for years. Their instructions have gotten better with time. The furniture is also more intuitive in how it goes together. Full disclosure I used to make custom furniture for restaurants so this isn't exactly out of my wheelhouse
I agree with you today. Unfortunately I think the meme is stuck from experiences with IKEA 20 years ago. I remember from that time trying to assembly sets with missing screws. But that never happens anymore.
My issue with it is often they're dimensioned so poorly they don't line up right
"If you can't afford a carpenter, then do it yourself," is exactly why I became a carpenter. XD
Same thing happened to me 😂
Me 2
That's why I became a carpenter. And a plumber. And an electrician. And a painter. And a drywall hanger. And a tile setter. And a Mason. And an appliance repairman. And an auto mechanic. And an HVAC tech....
Yup
@@incognitotorpedo42 also an engineer, a machinist, a cook, a father, a taylor...
There has also been a shift within IKEA products. When I bought my first IKEA products in the eighties they were affordable through smart minimalistic design and mass production, but the quality was fairly good. Over time products became cheaper and of poorer quality. Metal parts were replaced by plastic, wood replaced by particle board, and that became thinner too.
I have heard others say the same thing.
There's more than that I would say. They optimized.
With the enormous quantity of feedback they have on their products they have an incredible amout of data to work with as to how and why a client would be dissatisfied with their products. And longevity is rarely one of them, you nowadays often change a good portion of your furnitures when you change appartment or house, and god knows we move more often now than few decades ago. Anyway they have perfected stuff based on their client's expectations. On Billy bookcases for exemple, the legs (is it how vertical planks are called?) are thinner than they used to be, because they could afford to do so, on the opposite the shelves are a millimeter or so thicker now than they used to be 10-15years ago so that they sag less with time which was a common complaint.
@@OdamaKamayuka Yep, they have the data and so they know exactly which corners they can cut and still produce a perfectly adequate product.
Wow! Great video!...I had priced out a large renovation on a high end house for about $400,000. They laughed at me and said they have someone who would do it for half that! I said: "Go ahead, use them." My architect drew their plans for them. I asked him how did it go? He told me they couldn't even finish the job! So low and behold, I get a phone call from the home owner asking if I could complete their house...I said absolutely not!!! This has happened to me so much that I am completely frustrated with the industry. I cant compete with stupid!!! I now buy homes, fix them up and put them for sale. I dont hire myself out anymore. Saves me so much grief!!!
I wanna do that. I hope you could make a channel for this and teach us the trade. Aspiring architect here. after I get my license, I plan to study real estate.
nice story
Good strategy for better profits for time. The other frustration I have with this boils down to the same issue raised in the video: Since many buyers don’t know the real value of good materials and quality work, many of the fixed-up homes have improvements designed to lend eye appeal and sellable value but not always live-in-and-last value. And part of that is trend consumerism has also acculturated buyers into desiring and accepting planned obsolescence.
hahaha!...nope. it's about 3000 square feet. Adding on another 1000, for a enlarged kitchen and re-doing the roof and the rest of the interior....I'm from the Vancouver BC Canada area. The housing market here is bananas. My Dad bought an acre lot in the early 80s for $80,000. He built his dream home for about $200,000. We lived there for about nine years and paid so much in property tax ($10,000 a year!!!) He finally sold it for close to $900,000. That's a huge jump! Now...that house has to be about several million, and I'm sure the property tax will have either doubled or tripled since then....the government is trying to erase our middle class, and most young people cant afford to buy simple apartments or townhomes. I feel sorry for them. My own house, before I moved in, my realtor called me and asked if I would be willing to sell...he said my house jumped a $150,000. In four months!!! I said no way, we cant find another place to live!!!!! That's how crazy it is here.
@@Chinoiserie9839 lol! No way, I have a family and a business to run. Barely enough time to myself!
When I bought my home 10 years ago, I wanted some really nice custom bookshelves and cabinets. But I didn't have the budget to hire a pro, and I didn't want cheap Ikea-style materials.
The solution was to teach myself how to do it. I watched a lot of videos, bought a lot of fun tools, did a lot of experiments in the basement. Eventually I had the confidence to draw up a plan and do the job, and I love it! And it was an experience beyond the transactional that most homeowners have. It felt great.
Of course, wood prices were a little different 10 years ago.
This is what the world is turning into. Buy cheap garbage, save up forever for quality stuff, or make it yourself. I've become a well-rounded jack-of-all-trades because I like things that aren't shitty but i'm not rich! Lmao
Hell yeah. Teach yourself. I agree
I have friends who are exactly like this：“we either don't do it, or throw whatever amount a contractor asks for once we can afford it”. When I ask them why not DIY, they said it's “not their job”. Some ppl are customers by nature and ppl like you and me are engineers by nature.
@@AngryVikingwGuitar One of the issues, for the video creator, is that the cheap stuff lasts a lot longer and expensive built ins often reduce the value of the house when the owner wants to move. That wasn't as much of an issue in the past when people were working the same job for decades and had less need to move, but now, it's not just that you're spending $15-20k on the project, it's that it also likely lowers the resale value as well.
The same thing happened with fast fashion (H&M, etc) and custom clothing. People show up to a dressmaker asking for a custom, personally fit gown at a price less than the fabric would cost.
is that only for women's clothes?
I'm in an industry that requires custom jobs for everything. Prices can go super high depending on the need. What you should do instead of driving 45 minutes to give an estimate, is run them through a funnel similar to this:
- They contact you by email / phone
- You reply asking about the gist of their project, and some basic questions like "how large are the items you need done?"
- They reply with rough measurements.
- You ask if they have a budget, and if it is at least $________ (rough estimate)
- If they say they do, you go out, look professional, measure stuff, and give an exact quote.
That way you don't look like an money grubbing asshole, you save on gas, time, and heartache. And if they complain about your rough estimate, you mention the problems with ikea's stuff.
Agreed, I'm not sure why he couldn't ask general details over the phone. Also the $1K budget is an exaggeration. Even getting wall to wall stuff from Ikea won't be that cheap.
@@arcadion448 maybe an exaggeration but truly not by much depending on where in the country you are and the client's knowledge.
Also, yes you can ask about general stuff on the phone but sometimes people appear to know their stuff until you are face to face.
I would prefer face to face and hope they would bring a portfolio of previous work. With proof of clients. If that can be done I would have no problem with price. Its to the point now where I now do most of my own work including electrical. Why? Because I'm stuck babysitting "pros" Because at any point in time they will cut corners. I had my bathroom done and not a month later the caulking molded out. And guess where I was? I was at lowes at the time. Pros should bring credentials and proof of work to every job to avoid being low balled and to prove he or she is the person for the job.
Agree with this 100%, the problem alot of tradesman refuse to give estimates even after given the photo and measurements. Given customers estimated price will not that hard, not only safe your time but also safe your customers time.
makes perfect sense. Unfortunately a lot of craftsmen are not willing to give even estimates over the phone stating "they have to see the task". They are also afraid if they give an estimate, then later on I will take it as a quote and call them out on it.
I had some IKEA pieces in the past. None survived 5-6 years or a move. I also owned a 98 year old house with the original build-in furniture, with stained glass cabinets, that looked beautiful and performed perfectly. You get what you pay for. The old craftsmen are gone, but their work lives and it is still awe inspiring.
A lot of that has to do with the lack of wage growth with respect to the cost of living. Not to mention that the price companies charge often bares little resemblance to the cost of production. It leads to people having less disposable income to spend on more durable things, even if they can identify them.
Not to mention that such furniture was extremely heavy and people seem to move around a lot more now than they did back then and the Ikea stuff uses a lot less resources, so if it doesn't last forever, it's much less of a big deal as there's probably very little actual wood in there.
@@SmallSpoonBrigade It is a double edged sword, a bit like fast fashion. A lot of Ikea furniture is made out of lumber industry waste (particle board), which is good from a resource management point of view and makes for cheaper furniture. But the low price means you can afford to remodel your home more frequently and so we throw away furniture before it is worn out.
Finally, someone who understands that people without much money should be allowed to have nice things, too.
I agree about the IKEA effect. I recently got into woodworking. I’m at the shelf building level and it amazes me how much wood alone costs. I understand now that with the amount of time it takes to condition, stain, and seal the wood is hours of work.
Thanks for posting this video so people understand a carpenter’s POV.
“Finishing” is indeed the hardest part of a very hard process Kimberly! Good luck with the woodworking projects 🙂
Yep, staining and polyurethane alone is a multi-day process. Time is money and a lot of people out there just don't want to pay you for your time and effort. Of course, if the shoe were on the other foot they'd go into hysterics if you decided not to pay them for their time.
This. I'm building some of my own shelves outh of pallet wood because I can't honestly afford a pro work.
I know how much they ask and they have to ask and completely understand that, I'm just in that part of my life where I have no money and a lot of free time.
Wood by itself costs quite a lot, but then you have glues, fasteners, tools.
Jeez, a trip to the hardware store can empty your bank account.
@@gabrielemagnabosco8926 having just bought a nice tablesaw and saw blade my bank account whole heartedly agrees with you.
Then again having used to saw the last 2 days have been some of the best experiences. So much easier than a circular saw on a guide rail, let alone the jigsaw I used before that.
@@boomerangfreak well, there's a weird limbo where you stop and think that to avod spending 2k € to buy proper cabinets you spent 1.9k € in tools and consumables and materials and you just wonder if it was indeed worth.
Then you start to build all sorts of things for the house to offset the costs and now you are the woodworker of all your friends and your house is a mess, your cabinets are full and you need new ones.
Building my first workbench right now out of pine lumber, and it really gives an appreciation of what you're saying here. No pre-cuts, no pre-drilled holes, no included fasteners, no pre-finished surfaces. Everything done from scratch. It's time consuming but so much fun at the same time.
It's nice if you fuck up and over-tighten a fastener a little it doesn't split the whole-ass MDF board in half. Absolutely hate putting together IKEA/Wal-Mart furniture.
Well done, as we were in a retail business, we had the "Amazon Effect" . We sold a custom clothing from another country. Because Amazon delivers in two days, " how come it takes you so long? " The Ikea cabinets will only last a move or two. Particle board , even doweled together, is just saw dust waiting to return to mother earth.
SO glad I happened upon The Honest Carpenter on youtube! I can relate as a carpenter/contractor of 40 plus years to virtually EVERY video you've posted! At least for the dozens I 've seen, you have secured a special niche in the trade (in youtube terms) --so many other tradesmen focus on "how-to", addressing specific projects like bookshelves, rebuilding that storage shed, etc. You are about "everything else" ---I love it!!!
Thanks for this... I make boxes as my hobby, and sometimes, my colleagues or friends ask me if they could buy one from me. When I say that their $20 offer is pretty much paying me $0.50 an hour, they look puzzled...
So, I decided to give my boxes away to whoever I want.
Not to mention the cost of tools, supplies, even electricity to light and operate your shop! All because most people don't have a clue what it is like to make something of lasting quality . . from scratch. I feel your pain - and joy in the work.
I too make boxes, from other people's scrap wood. Someone gave me offcuts of a deck that had to be demolished to make way for a pool. I made a couple of boxes, and showed them to her. She said the deck was originally built for some special occasion, and the box would would make a great memento of it, and would I sell her one? I said sure - normally, $120, but since it was her wood and as special memory, $80 for her. Never heard back from her. I also give them away, rather than put a price on them.
That’s how I feel as well! I would rather give something away for free to someone I value, rather than sell my undervalued item to somebody who doesn’t appreciate it’s actual value.
@@SenseiShah Well that is just sad. Apparently it didn’t mean that much after all.
@@angellas.1314 That's the impression I got too. Oh well, her loss. She'll just have to remember the deck instead.
Well done. I just finished a major remodel of my home with half the house demolished and redone with custom everything. Each step along the way I had to decide good, better, best. I had more stress than I want to ever deal with again. But, I mostly decided on better and best. I walk through my remodel now and puff my chest out in pride and happiness. Quality doesn't come cheap but it lasts forever.
Very true, George! Going up from good to great in finish quality gets harder and more expensive with every notch you ascend.
@PogChamp 👏
@@jongump4129 With a contractor, you lose complete control of quality of every aspect of the job. The subcontractors are building to the contractors standard, not yours. The contractor's standard is usually whatever the minimum quality level is that the average person will accept. There are exceptions, but they're uncommon. If you want high quality work, this probably isn't the way to go.
@@TheHonestCarpenter exponentially!
@@TheHonestCarpenter There's a lot of cabinet shops in my city. They all seem to focus on commercial, institutional, or high-end builds. Nobody seems to focus on the average homeowner. I called an upholstery shop for a quote and was told "Sorry, we only focus on restaurants and other businesses."
I was a handyman for many years and found a niche with helping the elderly. It is quite exciting to be able to help those who cannot help themselves. I also came behind and had to pickup after crappy service provider’s. I did very well because I was working with products I had installed myself years before. I was taught by craftsmen and that knowledge has served me well. However you cannot get rich helping people on retirement. But I did feed my family and stay comfortable throughout the years.
God bless you.
When I was in the business, I ran into this too. Many times I just added trim work on top of ikea stuff to make it look custom. I made some money and the client was happy.
dead right, buy the boxes
Straight up bro. The hardest part for me was dealing with the customers. It's a skill all on its own. Much respect for those that have those tools. I like your direct efficient approach.
The main thing I try to do is figure out if I'm going to like working for them, and second, do they really want to do something, something I can sell them, or are they just fishing.
@@NealBrenard Yeah, fishing for carp when you are selling caviar! I don't want anything to do with the ones who are fishing for carp.
I didn't know it was called the IKEA effect. I was calling it the Walmart effect. Back in the early 2000's, I made some very custom toy boxes. The materials cost me about $400 for each box. These were very well made and detailed. Then, I walk through a Walmart and saw an ottoman with a deep storage compartment that could be used for a fancy toy box. It was selling for $59. I couldn't even buy the wood at that price. If the kids wreck it in a few years, they probably would have out grown too.
Now, I determine what it will cost me and what I can buy something instead and weigh how long it will last. I am getting older and am retired so even the junk bought at Walmart or Ikea will out last me and not worth the effort or the money (especially with today's wood prices) for me to build. There is no joy for me knowing that I built a great piece when I could have spent the money travelling instead. Chances are whatever I build will be thrown out after I am gone since it is a custom piece.
You can add to that today's generation doesn't care for "old stuff". Lugging around great grandmothers buffet is something they don't want to do.
As I walked along the sidewalk where I live, being hit by hurricane Ida, I saw a lot of decent furniture that was turn to the curb. A lot of those pieces could just use some TLC and would be good as new. Unfortunately we now live in a world where everything is disposable and what ever us out of fashion, even if it were very expensive during its production, gets thrown out. The value goes away.
Thats cause china just takes wood from the countryside and doesnt pay anything for it. I am surprised freight doesnt impact cost that much, then again, container cost spread over thousands of products...
@@hebson21 "I am surprised freight doesnt impact cost that much"
That's because of price fixing and government subsidies. Essentially, you have the Universal Postal Union and a some other similar bodies which set the rates that can be charged to ship things internationally from A to B. The CCP exerts political pressure to keep the rate of shipping things from China ridiculously low. Low to the point that a shipping company loses a lot of money on every parcel.
So how do the shipping companies break even or even turn a profit? They don't. They go out of business *unless* they are a shipping company that's controlled by the CCP, in which case they receive a very hefty subsidy.
My understanding is that this situation has improved somewhat in recent years but not to the point that things are actually on an even playing field. It was so bad that it was cheaper to ship any given item all the way from china than it was to ship it domestically.
Besides the shipping aspect, the materials are produced by slaves.
You'd be right, actually. The Ikea effect is totally different and a big part of the reason why tradespeople are vanishing. You might think you're worth $75/hr, but that doesn't obligate anyone else to agree.
IKEA is so much fun and we have definitely made some purchases over the years. However, earlier this year when we decided to remodel our closet, we went with a carpenter. We have a nephew-in-law who is a young guy with a family trying to make it in that world and he gave us an amazing closet! The best part was back in January or so when we decided to move forward, he called me to ask for lumber money asap because he foresaw the inevitable price increase....his experience and intuition saved us about $1000 in materials. Love the closet!
you summed this up perfectly. This has happened to all trades. Auto mechanic don’t fix, they replace. Machinists have been replaced by programmers, the list goes on and on. As a society we have forgotten pride and quality.
Too right. Try getting someone to build you a custom automobile and tell him "But I can get a Ford Focus for 30k". Same principle.
Definitely well said and I share your experiences, but not as a carpenter. I think asking for their budget first and explain why you need that information. Especially if you going to kill a half a day, and in the end have nothing. Then offer a consulting visit cost that you could apply to the finished project as a credit, or not.
This is an extremely good approach Marc. The most effective one for pros intent on doing custom work. 👍
@@TheHonestCarpenter You could also ask, "What have you seen that you like? or How long do you expect your investment to last?" If these questions put people off, then they were never your client. If they answer honestly then you can explain about your time and materials and how you build things to last, perhaps the life of their house or project. Some prospects expect you to be a quoting machine to beat up some other guy for a better price. You can explain, your not that guy and cannot afford to play in that arena. Your price is your price and the quality of your work speaks for itself, and offer this - "Speak to my references". In the end, I think you will save time and money and have better clients/customers.
With so many buying new homes, the market is ripe for fraud and abuse. But if you are not one of those guys, your name and abilities will carry the day.
It’s fair to charge a reasonable fee for the first visit just like any decent profession such as a technician making a home visit to access/inspect ur faulty white goods even though it can’t be repaired there and then and charge the full repair cost separately if u go ahead. This would certainly filter off speculating clients to get the lowest quote to negotiate with the one they hv in mind from day one!!
@PogChamp ask for references, ask to see their portfolio of past work. I will gladly give a perspective client half a dozen names of past clients to talk to about my work. If a contractor is not willing or is unable to do this, avoid them. I don't take on new clients much anymore and if I do, they are recommended to me by existing clients.
Boy did you nail it on this one, full stop.
I could not agree with you more. We are also experiencing this problem here in Tokyo. When people say to me " I could buy that at IKEA for $300..." I usually smile and say "well then please do so" and I leave.
I live in a large enough city that I can still find clients, but before I drive across town, or take a train, I ALWAYS ask, in round numbers what their budget is, as some have said, if they don't like that, they were most likely NOT going to be a good client anyway.
Cheers from Tokyo!
One of the problems is that it's hard to even know how much a project should reasonably cost (and what the budget should even be) without that estimate. So it would actually be helpful, as a homeowner, to know how to budget for custom carpentry if I were thinking about having great-quality work done by a skilled tradesperson. That would allow everyone to have reasonable expectations right from the beginning and avoid sticker-shock. Thanks for a great video!
I'm retired now and my last job was as a site superintendent remodeling stores for major corporations.
But when I was self employed about 10 or 12 years ago, my hourly wage was $40/hr. I don't know what the average wage is for a master carpenter these days. (Most of my jobs were one man jobs.)
If you have basic tools, go to the lumber supply and buy the materials for a simple set of shelves and see what goes into building them from start to finish.
You can estimate (roughly) minimal cost. Draw simple sketch of what you want, calculate amount of wood needed, find price of your favorite species of wood and double for other materials, multiple by 10 for work.
@Mark Biallas 👏👏👏👏
Thank you for a great video. My problem is getting someone to give an estimate. Nearly every tradesman I know is crying for work, but no one will come and give an estimate or even answer their phone.
@@davidguenther8170 err eg,..
Speaking as an above-average DIYer, I built wall to wall bookshelves myself. Put in the sweat equity, and am very proud of the finished product. The materials alone cost more than $1K, and it's not perfect. The learning experience alone was worth the investment. Seeing this video makes me feel a bigger sense of pride for doing it myself, and see the value of what I did on a more realistic level. Thank you for putting together such an informative video
One of the things I've seen Covid push regarding projects that I think helps with this is encouraging a lot more virtual estimates. By taking a few rudimentary measurements, snapping a few pictures, and putting them in an organized fashion (which the average person can do themselves), you can often get a baseline estimate put together to at least see if you're even in the ball park as far as budget is concerned. Saves the contractor the drive out for that initial walk through, and saves the client the time of the appointment.
Good point. I have a project, and I am thinking about taking measurements, listing details, and making a video that can be sent to potential contractors before anyone comes out. In my work life, I often ask for "budgetary quotes" from vendors over the phone or e-mail so I won't waste their time. I thought about the same for home, make a video with measurements and ask for "budgetary quotes".
Making the customer do some of the work is smart. People who want better service than that, can pay up front with a non-refundable deposit.
As someone involved in the trade over 10 years, and who has lived this exact scenario, this is a really outstanding video, and should be required viewing for any home owner looking to get custom work done on their home. The ones that are real killers are the ones who think IKEA prices are too high, and you should charge less because you're local.
"IKEA prices are too high, and you should charge less because you're local"
oof
You have to learn to vet on the phone.
Some people are really stupid
I lost count of the number of times I get called to 'fix/tweak' IKEA units. There's definitely a lifespan to those items. But there are also cases where a client is indeed on a budget and I use some IKEA materials to save them some money. I always ask my clients if they want the "5-year solution or the 50-year solution"
Give them the 100 year solution and you'll never go hungry
@@bobbg9041 Yeah, he'll probably go starving instead with the 100 year solution. :D
Great video and you are spot-on. I used to be in architectural millwork and if the customer didn't ballpark a budget we would volunteer that "A project of this scale can range from $12-18,000, depending upon your choice of materials and design details. Does that match your budget expectations?" If we don't qualify our customers and set proper expectations, we get what we deserve. My sister was a closet designer (salesperson) and on one on-site customer visit she decided not to prequalify the customer, because they were constructing a new home, drove a couple nice cars and even had a pair of beautiful new motorcycles parked in the garage. After measuring three closets, discussing all the items that they would need to store/display, etc. and doing a couple hand drawings my sister gave them an estimate of $25,000 and they just about died! They said "We don't have that kind of budget. Not only are building this place, but we've just purchased a couple new Harleys!" All the things she assumed were signs of wealth were actually signs of overwhelming debt. Scott
This is a topic I could talk for hours.
My uncle quit his job as a wood-work teacher to go into custom carpentry. He's really good - I've seen his furniture and joinery work and it's first rate. He experienced EXACTLY the problem you mentioned here - people wanting some custom shelf or cabinetry installed, with a budget that would cover 1/10th of the materials alone.
I'm not QUITE as skilled as him, but I've made plenty of custom furniture for my home, and I can knock up a typhoon-proof shed frame to boot. Yet I still have Ikea stuff. Why? I like their style. A lot of their metal hardware like hinges, handles and the like are actually really good. And fact is, if I want a modern set of kitchen cabinets, for example, it's easier and cheaper for me to get the Ikea stuff than custom make it with things from the local hardware. And their laminated chipboard is no better anyway...
And I agree than everyone deserves to have nicely designed stuff in their home. Ikea is exceptional value compared to some stuff out there. It designed to a price point, but it IS designed, and a lot of thought gets amortized over large amount of sales. I worked for a furniture shop in a posh suburb, and honestly, a lot of the "modern" stuff came flat packed from China, was worse quality than Ikea, but once assembed by me or another guy out the back, was sold for 5-10x the price.
Yet I'd debate with my co-worker, who said it was all rubbish and should be banned. He couldn't understand that if nothing was available but bespoke, custom carpentry made from quality hardwood, it wouldn't mean everyone would have that level of quality. It would mean ONLY people who could afford that would have nice furniture, and everyone else would left to go without or live with whatever DIY they could manage, like the middle ages.
No not the middle ages that was the 80s.
@@sparksmcgee6641 You mean back when wages were mostly in line with inflation? The fact is that carpenters are expecting to be paid more than what most people can afford and there's going to have to be some sort of adjustment to stay in business. There are better options now in terms of mass-produced stuff and the money people have to pay for such services is substantially less than it was back then.
I don't particularly like it, but if you can't justify to the customer why your good or service is better than what Ikea is selling, you're not going to be in business long.
Sorry off topic but it is so satisfying to see your work shop so neatly organized. I mean look at that drill layout.
I like that too. An organized shop counts for a lot.
BTW, I used to be in a coworking space that used IKEA furniture. It was junk that fell apart quickly.
After I left that place, I treated myself to Herman Miller furniture for my home office. So glad I did.
I totally agree! I hope Ethan posts a video of his progress and/or shop tour. It looks so much better/different now!
I know i wish my shop looked like that, I've got tools laying on shelves
This is so accurate. One of the teachers bought a couch for a room for students during break. The couch was a do it yourself DIY. It was garbage. It was flimsy in it structure and it constantly needed up keep because the screws kept loosening up. It didn't take long before the couch was trash.
I think you really nailed it, in every single field people just have no idea how much it costs to hand make anything whether it's a chair or a knitted blanket or a piece of art. Even just materials is so much more than people even think about. Add to that even minimum wage and people don't want to pay you (I know a lot of knitters, artists, and potters who can't even charge themselves minimum wage for their work or they'll never get a commission or a sale)
I think part of it is that wages are so bad everywhere so people just can't afford even close to an ethical wage for custom handmade work.
I don't disagree with you. I'll just also add that the quality of a tradesperson also dropped a lot over the years.
I am a fairly handy person, and the number of unskilled people that call themselves carpenters (etc) and charge the same as a good professional would is overwhelming.
I think that there is a little mix between people that don't know the difference between particle board and lumber, and tradesmen that don't know how to hold a hammer... To me, this mix works together on ruining carpentry.
Fact. If a "carpenter" wants a carpenter fee, he had better be a carpenter. I have met one real carpenter in my long lifetime.
I think is easy to know or see or the difference between a real carpenter or someone who is just trying to act like one.
I saw the same thing happen in the music industry when digital recording & laptops became powerful and cheap enough that anyone with a couple thousand bucks could record decent audio. It killed off so many mid-tier, lower cost recording studios. Seems like it is the same thing in woodworking and custom fabrication. Unless it is a commercial or high-end home job, there are lots of options out there for the average Joe. Slightly handy? Tons of DIY guides and videos. Not handy? Go to Ikea.
Correct, there are thousands of people doing that, but the high end work only so many that know how to, have the experience and it's known in that market, after years of getting the knowledge and experience I'm lucky to be in that market where I can set my price.
@@RobertLinthicum I agree wholeheartedly... I have come across quite a few "wood-butchers" though..
This was spot on. I'm not a Carpenter by trade but really enjoy working with my hands and building things. A necessary therapeutic for me as I am in IT and create nothing for a living. I'm in the middle of a project building a shed for my son. We're both enjoying the bonding experience, but my son has said several times he had no idea how much work it would be to build this shed. There was a time when people valued custom carpentry. I think that has waned over the last decade or two. IKEA is more of a symptom than a cause of the problem. We've gotten away from appreciating artistry and opting for immediate gratification and low cost.
I'm in the exact same spot, software developer that has taken woodworking as a hobby, just to see something real made by my hands. And I have to say you are absolutely right, nobody seems to realize how much time and effort, not to mention materials and investment in tools, shop, learning, etc. really go into making something, even at a non-professional level.
Ethan.
Really enjoyed your video concerning ikea. My wife and I recently were on vacation and happened to see an ikea near Milwaukee. We had both wanted to visit one but there aren't any near where we live in Florida. We went in. You have to travel the entire length of the store on a marked route. (Strike one). There was thousands of every item in the store. Whatever you got was not special, you would probably see it at you friends house. (Strike two). It all looked like cheap junk that wouldn't survive more than a year or two. (Strike three).
As a bonus or "extra innings", nothing jumped out at us and said we should buy it. (Game over).
Thanks for the excellent video.
Bob
This happened to me lots of time. Competition comes from all different areas. I had a friend asking about an entertainment center. I told him up front that the materials alone would be more then he could purchase a completed unit for. He was shocked.
In CA. I had not only discount furniture stores, box store cabinets, but illegal labor to compete with. Consumers most of the time look at the price and forget the bigger picture. Furniture and cabinets made in other countries, do not help your community or country.
I was in Home Depot a few years back, right after they installed their self checks. I was waiting in line. The lady from self check asked if wanted to move to her area. I said no, I would wait. She looked puzzled.
I explained. The checker in my line takes home a paycheck. She spends it in this community. She might even hire me to do a job. If I use the self check, I don't get a discount and the money the company saved goes back to corporate. It doesn't get spent locally.
Very, very nice explanation. I will use it too.
Walmart in my rural town switched to only self check out. Done with that place. Since that store came in . the only thing it added was 10 gov subsidized apt complexes.
As a person who edits videos for a living, I have to say your production value on your videos is great. Great information as always. It's like the old saying, "You get what you pay for."
There's a similar phenomenon in other industries too. Computer software and apps. Most people expect their phone apps to be free, for example. But software developers / programmers have to earn a living too!
Usually consumers pay with their sensitive data. It just seems free
Yep. Same thing happened with web design. There was a brief period in the late 90s/early 2000s where you could make a living with custom web site design and coding, but even then it was hard. There were always the people who thought they could get a fully custom site with custom graphics designed, programmed and uploaded to their server for $100 or so...
Nowdays things like Wix provide that function! Times move on. You just have to adapt or perish, either way.
I used to be a kitchen designer with big box stores. Educating customers up front saved me a great deal of work on the back end and I wholeheartedly agree with you; Talk numbers up front. "An honest" craftsperson will use that as a guide, not a chance to plunder. Thank you for all of your hard work.
Very, very valid point.
As an electrician, my nightmare is when an electerKia would pup up and put me out of business. As it is, I spend so much time and out of pocket money visiting job sites, spending even more time into drafting proposals to submit. Majority of times, people don’t even bother to call back just to say “thank you but no! Thank you”! And even those very few who hire me, after haggling over the last pennies, they want it all done yesterday
Very well said. When I bought my first home 30 years ago, I couldn't afford a carpenter. A friend introduced me to hand tools...Not power tools. 2 years later I completed my entire house , including beds. Every thing is still in perfect shape....the people I sold my house to still complement me.
For my second house, I could use the services of a contractor and got customised furniture....worth all the money.
Sadly even here in India, pre-fabricated particle board furniture is pushing out hard working artisan carpenters.
As someone who has worked in the trade, I'm thankful for IKEA, as it has allowed many who couldn't afford a $12-15k wall of shelving to still have an option available to them. In today's economical climate, a shelf system that's the cost of a good used car is hard to sign off on.
I would justify it if it lasts a lifetime, it becomes cheaper in the long run
@@tacomonkey222 The IKEA shelf wall will probably last the same time, if it's not moved
people move on the average every 7 years. makes it harder to justify spending that coin, hoping the next buyer will reward them with increased value. and not rip it out to install the Ikea entertainment system they brought from their previous home... here's my best tip- market to rich people. they are the ones with the money.
Really good perspective! I appreciate your candor and ability to explain things from a ground level and birds-eye view. It helps me personally as a homeowner when thinking about projects. When my wife and I found out we were having twins, we moved from our brand new home that we picked all the finishes and trims for to a larger 12 year old home that was in need of some TLC. I did a LOT of the work myself (flooring, interior paint, fixture and outlet replacement etc), but needed to hire some professionals for some of the more major work (porch demolition/construction, siding and exterior trim replacement/painting etc). We quickly found out that the costs for these exceeded $12,000 - $15,000 per project. This was just fine with me as I expected the high costs, but it's just an interesting perspective that you give to help me better understand and appreciate the contractors and other professionals time and efforts. Thank you very much! 😀
Ethan, bloody well said. I'm 49 years old and have been in the trade 'since breakfast'....I'm a 3rd year apprentice after a big career change. Even with only so little time in the trade, I'm already seeing this effect. And your other video about "where have the carpenters gone?", spot on. I live an work in Australia, and I don't think the problem is as severe here, but it was previously until the government provided more incentives for training, hiring etc. Anyway, love your channel, I've come late to it so I have many more to watch and catch up on....can't wait!
I see this same thing with my quilting. The cost of making a quilt is far greater than going out and buying a blanket that has been stitched to look like a quilt. Some find that taking time to explain the differences between hand made and factory made helps.
I am not happy with cheap furniture and really appreciate good carpentry. Thanks for your informative videos.
It’s like Happy Gilmore. The price is $400 per quilt. This is handmade quality goods here.
A customer gave me a beautiful Afghan blanket she made once & I thought, wow, that must have taken dozens of hours to make!
Yes, anything with handmade and physical labor, skilled work falls into this category.
A good, well balanced video. I make some of my own things, I recognise the price of timber and the skill required to actually design & build from scratch; I also recognise that sometimes IKEA is the way to go. I look at it a bit like buying tools, I will buy the Ikea furniture because its cheap and looks reasonable. If I like it, use it and then want something better I will make it (if I can) or pay someone with the skills to make it for me, same as buying a half decent toll and using it lots then deciding to upgrade.
The fact that you didn't turn this into an Ikea bashing episode but explained the pros and cons so people could make their own decisions earned another subscriber.
Everything you said is absolutely true. Too many people have no idea what is involved in crafting projects. This video will help to educate to some extent. But your audience is people who already appreciate what you do.
As a consumer of crafting skills, I have been lucky. I don’t look for the cheapest craftsman. I get referrals from friends. I see the quality of work. I hear the complaints, and I have an idea of what that level of quality will cost.
Once you have established a reputation, you may limit your projects to a minimum budget, and give priority to referrals. Also, you may limit your projects to neighborhoods that are sufficiently affluent and within reasonable distance from your base of operation.
If you ask people what their budget is, they will say the amount they want to pay and what they think it should cost. But they may not know what it should cost, and the amount they want to pay is not necessarily all they can afford or are willing to pay. The sales person must introduce true value and reality to the buyer.
A consumer who has had a bad experience could make a video, too. And cost would probably be at the bottom of the list. Addressing the most common complaints in the sales pitch goes a long way to gaining confidence.
And find someone who can manage your business. Craftsmen are usually poor business people. They often don’t communicate well, nor can they write a concise contract. Everything must be in writing.
Always enjoy your videos. Thanks
That's so different here (Italy).
Due to pretty much every house being built out of masonry, bespoke furniture is mostly reserved for custom closets/wardrobes/cupboards built in very specific instances (usually a passageway or something), and it's known to be an expensive thing.
Kitchens, even the expensive ones, are usually not custom built.
One of the realities of our economic system is that the middle class, those who can afford your work, is shrinking. Unfortunately, until we see a reversal in that trend, you'll probably continue to see your customer base shrink.
Thanks for the video, I hadn't thought of this issue for contractors/carpenters and I enjoyed your perspective.
Middle class can’t afford custom work. Upper middle class and wealthy people can and do pay for it everyday. Know your base of clients before you have a business
Exactly this, it's a race to the bottom.
Pretty much every quality tradesperson works on multi-million dollar houses these days. It's becoming a very dichotomous thing, either you get bottom dollar production building or super high end custom.
@@neoasura
Low-income earners ($0-35k) accounted for roughly 36% in 1967, 31% in 1990, and 28% in 2018. *Net decrease* of roughly 8% over 51 years.
Middle income earners ($35-100k) accounted for roughly 54% in 1967, 47% in 1990, and 42% in 2018. *Net decrease* of roughly 12% over 51 years.
High income earners ($100k+) accounted for roughly 10% in 1967, 22% in 1990, and 30% in 2018. *Net increase of roughly 20%* over 51 years.
It's not a race to the bottom. Middle class and Lower class are shrinking because the upper class has been steadily expanding.
Source = US Census Bureau publicly available data
@@WhiskeyPapa42 that's not how the classes are divided. Also you cannot compare income through 50 years without adjusting for inflation, did you?
You are so spot on and like you Ive watched it happening and the truth is most carpenters like me are very undervalued and underpaid and stressed out. Good job.
Thanks Rob. Carpenters and lots of tradespeople live in sort of a shadow. I try to shine light into it whenever I can. Work safe out there. 👍
Honestly, after my experience as a new home owner, the biggest problem most trades people have, is the lack of understanding an economy based on services.
Most are just "OK, you want that that that, will be done" - and then, when the customer is unhappy, the answer is "but that's what you told me!" - if that's the answer, the next time I get cheap labor from abroad/ikea.
If I hire an expert, I expect consulting ("hm, why do you want it this way? I would suggest ***, then it will have this effect, here we could safe money... How long do you thing it has to hold?"...)
Most trades men never even heard of the usecase concept (who needs it for what and why?)
That's also one reason why I prefer to do it myself - yes, the quality will be inferior compared to a pro (when they try their best) and I will need far longer. But the quality is already higher then needed, it's fun, and since I plan everything again and again, the result really fits my needs.
Loving your video.i have just subscribed.
informative,entertaining and balanced.keep up the good work.
John from england.
I agree up to a certain extent. When moving into our new house we asked a carpenter for a custom bookshelf into some angled walls. We had a budget planned for 5-7k Euro due to the size and the angles. The carpenter then did completely ignore the angles and left out those spaced, basically offering us a couple of standard bookshelfs put side by side, made out of the same wood the ikea stuff is. They asked for 10k. I went to IKEA, bought a ton of BILLYs and got exactly the same thing for 600 Euro. I am prepared to pay more for custom work with better quality materials. I am not prepared to pay 15 times the prices for the same product.
Yup. I do so love those Billy shelves also myself. I've just bought five of them though..
In that case, you got scammed. Not a verry trustworthy company then, and by advertising this in youre neighbourhood it wil come back to haunt him.
In business it is necessary to be a intelligent, responsible client. Plans signed off by all parties? approved shop drawings? written specifications?...deal with mickey mouse contractors you get mickey mouse results...
A very honest and fair summing up of modern life. Sadly it has lead people to feel that everything should be cheap. The truth is you get what you pay for.
Thank you for explaining it to us in a way that makes sense from a viewpoint most of us don't know. :) I never thought of it that way before. The more we know the better it is for everyone. Good luck and keep up the great work. Love this channel!
👍👍
This was a great commentary and very informative. Thank you for all that you do.
Awesome way of approaching the subject! Most businesses just bash the less expensive way, which makes me walk away. Quality work is always more, and worth it. Shorter term options are just necessary for a lot of people. Thank You Ethan! Always respect honest people like you.
Trades folks prices are unaffordable to MOST first time home owners or renters. Hence IKEA filled a niche. I would charge a fee for an estimate that can then be deducted from the project cost if you are chosen. This way only SERIOUS clients would call for an estimate. Yes you would lose some business but you would also not have the hassle of dealing with folks who cannot afford SKILLED workers to begin with.
This is the way to do it. Then you also don't have to rush through your estimate. As a homeowner, it's very frustrating when I call in a handyperson and they are so worried about the fact they are not getting paid for the consult that they rush through it and don't pause enough to give quality insight. As a handyman/carpenter, we can still provide tons of value and ideas during the consult for that $100, even if we are not selected for the job.
With everyone else offering it for free it certainly isn't the way to do it. But you could make it clearer what the budget could be just through the phone, give the client an idea how expensive it is.
@@jankoodziej877 Most COMPETENT tradesmen charge for an estimate. Why? Because people know you get what you pay for. Jan, specially these days with labor shortages you don't want a TRAINEE doing your project just because his bid was lower. My neighbor hired a guy to build a gate. It was poorly made, poorly crafted, corners were cut. Why? The guy tried to save $300 and now has a thorn at his side Every time he sees that gate. Good craftsman are not cheap. Be upfront and tell the client when he/she calls that you do top notch work for a FAIR price.
@@jankoodziej877 that’s your opinion. Just because others don’t charge doesn’t mean I shouldn’t, or he/she shouldn’t.
It actually works better if you are high end and value yourself because you should be aiming for high end clients to begin with. You don’t do high end work for the average client. It’s not a good business model.
@@mavenfeliciano1710 I'm just saying how it works here. Nobody is in vacuum. If it is not customary to charge for an estimate, people will not expect it and will look for other options first. Of course if you have a lot of clients just waiting for you, it's a different story, but judging by how everyone complains in these comments, that doesn't seem to be the case for the majority.
I agree. As a homeowner I have done my own carpentry and in cases where it was more than I could do I had professionals do the work. Our kitchen remodel was done by a company who had carpenters install everything and their work was excellent. I never regretted hiring them.
As a guy looking to set up such a business, I'm super happy I saw this video. It doesn't put me off at all, just gives me a reality check. Thanks, Ethan. Quality costs, and people just need to see that value in what they are paying for. Probably the second question I will ask, after asking the budget, is 'how long do you intend to live in this house?"
And when you give your bids include all the explicit details of every single step involved in the process. Literally EVERYTHING. This gives greater justification and understanding as to why you’re charging x.
Someone above have all the details on how they did their bids and I love it.
I sincerely wish you well, man. Just know that there’s ALWAYS going to be a market for skilled craftsmen.
You might give yourself the year to try it but understand very few are so good they can just power past running a business. They work for a few builders and architects. Everyone else has to be able to run a business and I used to think only one in 10 could go it on their own. At 50 ive offered to back 50-100 people to go out on thier own and I would deliver my clients to them. Zero took me up on it once they heard how to run a business. So now I think 1 out of a 100 can be more than just a guy with a truck.
Your channel has grown by so much since I had begun watching your videos and I just realized I haven't been subscribed. *click*
Your writing for your videos is well done and I always appreciate your expertise, thanks
You know what grinds my gears? It's what I call the "Fantasy Effect", it's when people would see some pictures or videos on the internet of some furniture and they want you to replicate it but the problem is that sometimes those pictures aren't even real (especially the ones with impossible joinery or if it is possible, it would be very weak and fragile), it's just a 3D render made to look like it exist in the real world (with shadows, reflections etc.). Then I'll have to spend a few hours explaining to them that some things are LITERALLY impossible to replicate and they would say " we'll find someone else who could do it then", I mean who they gonna call, Jesus? Another thing is the "Pallet Wood Effect" where the client would want to use pallet/reclaimed wood so that it's cheap but they wouldn't want to pay for the extra effort on making that "cheap" wood look good.
The technical phrase is "Champagne ideas on a beer budget"
Absolutely agree about the cost of turning scrap to good lumber.
There’s people that actually hire someone eles to build something out of the pallets they collect from the dumpsters?
I work in the world of 3D rendering and you're exactly right. So much of the time, we're trying to produce imagery that looks pretty, to get an idea of the aesthetic a client might like - without spending the time upfront on constructability. We also love trying to achieve photo-realism in our renders! And honestly most of the stuff being produced for the general public is art created by artists....not designed to be built. I apologize for the people who take this artwork and want it replicated in the real world!
@@thomashajicek2747 your spot on there!!!
Well put! Another thing I love is when a homeowner tells me, “oh I’d do it myself, I just don’t have time” 😂
and most of the time he could - he just don't have the time to learn pro carpentry then make a hell of a lot of smaller projects to et the experience and work to pile up 400k USD to collect all the equipment it takes. Hence craftsmen.
Well said and spot on! I’ve been a hobby woodworker for about 10 years and friends recommend me for things but materials and labor always seems to come as a shock to people. I think you have captured the “why” of it all fantastically and we’re honest enough to present the good and the bad of this cultural shift. Thanks for this “food for thought”!
I feel your pain, because been through this myself. I am not a professional by any means. I am a self taught woodworker and almost all the furniture and builtins etc. in my home are built by me. I have had similar IKEA effect experience with few or our friends. Now I have stopped even entertaining their requests. So frustrating!😡
I think the same. Thank you a lot for this video.
Your discussion of the "Ikea Effect" "hit the nail on the head!" As a professional home handyman that takes on virtually any task from fixing a running toilet to building custom cabinets I am amazed how little people value those of us that come to their aid! I truly believe that you are right about people having a "Ball park" idea about how much something should cost when in reality it most likely cost 10 to 20 times that amount! And post COVID, when a $35 sheet of Birch plywood costs $96 or more it get's harder and harder for us to charge what we should be charging because we don't want our clients to die from a heartatack when then open the invoice!!!
about five years ago I was doing some punch list work for a lady in her bathroom. We were chatting, it was in OK shape but a bit outdated, a remodel was on the list. She says "yeah i'm getting ready to spend the 2 grand it will take to redo the bathroom" she was surprised to hear me tell her she should probably take that number and x5 if she wanted a nice but fairly straitforward bathroom, not moving any plumbing or anything. People just have no clue what things involve I find. I always find older people in general have a better idea of what things take and cost.
I view IKEA as a hardware store, I do do custom alterations, but honestly the cost of the materials can't be beat !
And it is not all crap material, much of their kitchen cabinet Hardware hinges, runners etc. Is very good quality and stands up very well. I have taken the approach to work with it, not (try and) fight against it.
You are so right. This is one of the reasons why I began woodworking. I was sick of the IKEA low quality material.Their designs are decent ,it’s just the quality of the material.(If they ever wise up and raise their quality then I might have to sell all my woodworking tools.)
You nailed it. Back in the late 70's early 80's I was just starting. Little did I know I was just starting to go out of business. I was loosing to that exact thing. How much? Was the thing back then. Then the next was i can buy that for 3 times less and more.
They didn't think of how long that stuff would last versus how long a custom piece would.
Then one day I found a full page article about those products and the sickness and can create. Having to much formaldehyde in your home can create this. Anyways it help keep me a float. Nothing like the smell of saw dust and a bang of a hammer.
I appreciate this point of view from a professional perspective. On the the flip side, people are selling their homes and moving numerous times before finally settling down. Not everyone, but many. Plus, styles change and people don't necessarily need that buy it for life quality. People are just wanting a "good enough" option for the money. They are trying to make their dollar stretch farther. That 10k - 13k can get a lot done in the Ikea world we live in. I can definitely see that material cost, your time, and your craftsmanship is valuable. No argument there.
Exactly! Styles and fashion change so quickly! On the craigslist, I often see exquisite high quality solid wood beds or wardrobes, which somebody originally paid several thousand dollars for 20-30 years ago, selling for like $300. And nobody wants them because they scream 1980-s. Custom shelves definitely won’t show age so much, but in their case, it’s almost impossible to recoup their cost when selling the property.
Only been to IKEA once, don’t think I will go back anytime soon. Keep up the good work!
Excellent video as always!
Thank you for not bashing the competition as Ikea has been a saving grace for me as a homeowner on a limited budget these past 29 years. I believe in paying for estimates and honoring the time of such skilled laborers as carpenters. Letting them know what your budget is UPFRONT is key in respecting their time and trade and the homeowners. Great job Ethan. 👏
Thanks Audrey, and well said! It’s a constantly changing world, and IKEA definitely has a big place in it. 🙂
You're right. My wife, when she handled renovations for our house, was surprised that contractors wanted to get paid $ for their time, and decided on her own what rate they should be asking. Hilarity ensued.
😆
I walked across the street feom a clients to bid a job for a corporate CPA. He asked what my hourly was and then I could see him crunching the numbers and he said "I cant afford that" honestly he was shocked so I said "Well I'm hiring." Use it on anyone that complains about a rate, it shuts them up quick. Once they talk to the spouse you get a call on about 1 out of 5. Stay at homes that dont know how to run a biz and the money maker that doesnt know what it costs to run the house are both guilty.
Great video, well said. I think this problem has a lot to do with people not understanding the value and worth of someone's experience. I am an Architect and I have lost count of the number of times that I would drive to a potential job, spend time (without being paid) listening to a clients desires only to then hear that they have a realistic budget and an even more unrealistic idea of what my experience is worth. For us, 'the IKEA effect' used to be replaced by 'The IKEA kitchen designer effect'. Clients would devalue our education and experience because a kitchen designer in IKEA told them how to solve a problem. In their eyes we were worth the same, despite our knowledge of structure, material and design.
Knowledge, Skill and experience are always worth paying for.
Honest and so true. I share similar sentiments, not as a carpenter but as a medical practitioner. Thanx for highlighting this - also reminded me to appreciate it more when anybody comes out to give me a quotation
Love this video, tha js again Ethan for a great explanation in truth!! Many Blessings
Great video, spot on.
Same effect is occurring in other industries, like in industrial automation.
It's called "smart phone effect".
Customers expect it easy to construct custom software and information handling systems. Swipe across the screen and it happens, in their mind.
am not a sw guy and recently was playing around low code platforms. Enjoyed it big time so looked into some articles how to scale it up and what actually happening behind the user interface. After three days of reading it is quite obvious that we non-IT people have basically no idea what constitutes software (as they say we can't even ask a question) and what it takes to develop a good industrial software (especially cloud-based). Same with carpentry, someone assembles a few IKEA-like designs at home and thinks he has some understanding of carpentry.
I love the little tag at the end where you very politely say, "well go to Ikea then"
This was great, Max, and you hit the nail on the head. This is true for all skilled trades! I have a 150 old house, and I have a hard time finding skilled craftsman to help with repair and upgrades. When was the last time you talked to a plasterer? So I am enjoying giving my house some DIY love and hiring skilled carpenters for what is beyond me. I can’t tell you how much I love my guys, and how much they enjoy projects at my house! That being said, I do buy some flat pack for free-standing utility pieces. It would be great if you could give us DIYers some tips on shoring up flat pack, that is, adding to it to make it stronger and last longer. Things like utility carts and such.
I'm in the middle of a floor to ceiling bookcase build and it's been enjoyable. The cost of materials alone has been worth the things I've learned about the process.
In Spain, there is a saying: only the fool confuses value and price.
Unfortunately, many people do not know the value of things. You are right about people when they ask for a budget , and do not know anything. They find it hard to come down from the clouds. They are not prepared to accept how much a detailed and personal project costs.
But , IKEA serves a purpose . Let's be realistic that everything has changed: it has changed the lifestyle in the last 30 years. People change their homes more, they don't need a custom-made bookcase that will last a lifetime because they either move, or their life faces changes (children, family...) and they need to redistribute their home. Houses are required to have a versatility that was not needed before. Maybe with several bookcases Billy veneered in birch that will last 20 years you have enough. Or a kitchen of 8.000 euros and a 1500 euros countertop is enough to last 15-20 years.
IKEA is just the tip of the iceberg. Everything has been democratized. Everything now has its "low cost" side: furniture, clothes, air travel, consumer electronics...
New to your channel, but this is a good video describing obstacles that need to be overcome. I'm pulling for you.
Thank you, metatech!
This is a fabulous video! Well done explaining the impacts of this phenomenon, appropriately named the “IKEA effect”, on homeowners and tradespeople like yourself. I completely agree with the points you make here and love that you respect the value other businesses bring to consumers.
As some who has purchased IKEA furniture several times in the past, I can confirm the poor quality of the materials. It’s one of the primary reasons I got into woodworking as a hobby. IKEA products just don’t last very long, especially their wood furniture. So I decided to learn to make things with my own hands using premium materials, engineered and assembled with product longevity in mind and using a design style that looks decent (influenced by other products). I’m not very skilled and have a lot to learn but thanks to your videos, I’m getting better by the day! Thanks for the entertaining videos and giving me the ability to do something I enjoy, and make things that can take a beating and my family truly loves.
I don't own any IKEA furniture, but years ago when I was young and less affluent I did buy those bookshelves in a box at Walmart. I just hire Contractors to redo my roof and back porch, paid them thousands of dollars and am glad to do it.
Oh yeah the good old Walmart bookcases, lol
I got a IKEA bathroom vanity recently and I was pretty shocked to discover it was mostly solid wood - you could see that it was a lot of shorter offcuts finger joined together, but only if you looked pretty closely. The joints were clearly made by a pretty fancy machine as they all looked identical and perfectly straight with many small fingers. My guess is they're stepping up their game and leveraging their scale to join offcuts into larger pieces so they can move away from MDF.
I suspect, it probably depends on what the product is and where it's intended to be used. A vanity in the bathroom isn't going to work as well with MDF as it would with solid wood. Moisture control is absolutely critical in that case.
I am a GC in Oregon. You hit the nail in the head with the "max budget" . We do lots of consultation in person and sometimes we are asking, as busy as we are, is time to change strategies? You are right, we are spending average of 3 hrs in a place to only turn out the customer wanted to compare our bid against others, without thinking of our time. I have countless of examples when we were called back by customers who did not accept our bid to finish the project "the cheaper contractor" they chosed did not finished.
Well done, a very honest and balanced expose. The sign of a very principled person!
In downsizing to our retirement home, we needed to dispose 30 years’ accumulation of furniture. We learned that it is impossible to sell fine handmade pieces to young families at any price, even free. However, an IKEA bedroom set we bought and for our then 14 year old son as his birthday request, sold so fast, people were fighting over it. It isn’t just that IKEA is a cheaper alternative, it’s that the younger folks have been conditioned to prefer it. I hated the crap, it screamed CHEAP with every drawer pull, and it shed particles with each use. Sadly, that’s where we are now.
Estate sale
I think a big reason why the solid furniture is so hard to get rid of is because people move so much now. Gone are the days of people buying a house and staying there for decades. People change apartments every couple years so they don't want to move stuff around.
Personally I'd love a beautiful, well made, solid dining table and chairs but finding all matching ones can be a bit of a chore.
The resale value of quality, antique furniture is basically that of firewood.
It’s not that we are conditioned to prefer it, it’s that most custom and old ‘real’ stuff is very aged and dated in design. Yeh you could shabby chic it if you are in to that aesthetic. And that is the key, it’s aesthetic, it’s continuity throughout the house, again if you are led that way in design you can have one or two odd pieces, but you have to realise when you buy a custom made thing, it was built for you. I have some ikea stuff, it’s lasted over 10 years, no problem. With daily use. I’ve just built a walk in wardrobe for under £600. And it will last as long as I want it to. But then I hired a carpenter to do some stuff in the house also, you see, hire them where you need their strength, skill set and expertise (which is seemingly declining) it IKEA was that bad quality, no one would re buy the product or products. The thing is, it’s design and aesthetics that change fast, which is the value proposition not discussed here. I lived in one house for 15 years, and changed it entirely around 7 times. Very few things are permanent, so spending £500 for a 3-5 year use case, is great value, as opposed to spending £5K on a custom build that will last forever, but you won’t have it forever.
I remember building custom bookshelves for my own house. I've been doing woodworking as a hobby most of my adult life. It was a lot of time and effort but that thing survived a flood of water in the basement unscaved due to high quality materials and protective finishes. However, as a student in college, things like IKEA gave me a way to get something cheap that would last the college life. So both have their place in the world as you stated. But you're right. The biggest problem is convincing a customer that quality does matter even if you pay more. That's the hardest sell of all.
It's the diffrence in price. If a 100$ bookshelf lasts 10 years and a 150$ one lasts 20yrs, the 150$ makes sense but if its 700$ for 60years, it's not necessarily worth it.
So true. Great informative video man. Subscribed & thumbs up bro 😎
The way you layout your tools is straight surgical. I'm taking screenshots of random clips here just to visualize what I want my future workspace to look like haha. Great videos, I know this is the wrong video to write this message on. People need to understand the "GOOD" "FAST" "CHEAP" triangle.