@ For me, it's The Village. It's such a beautiful romance movie that captures its themes of love and courage with such passion that I fell head over heels for it. It also doesn't make a lick of sense with more than a cursory glance at its worldbuilding, but I love it all the same. At least the logical inconsistencies don't really work against the thematic ideas that Shyamalan is exploring - it still works perfectly well in its core narrative with Ivy, Edward and Lucius, and how their love has the power to change the world - Shyamalan's faults lie in the broader worldbuilding problems. Spidey 3 rocks, btw. Yes, it's a mess, but a glorious one.
@ I have such an embarrassingly long list of "things I enjoyed*" at this point... The real trouble starts when you can *actually* focus on the stuff you do like, while tuning out the rest. Once you master that? You find yourself arguing the virtues of the *most* awful stuff with absolute sincerity. ...'Cuz you legit barely noticed the awful bits, you were looking at an entirely different part of the painting and having a quiet internal dialogue about how it made you feel.
I'm just gonna throw this out there: I understand the impulse to defend garbage, I really do. I find things to enjoy in even the most porous of stories... but that doesn't make those stories good. You have to learn the difference at some point between arguing: "I like the taste of cheeseburgers." vs. "Nutritional value is unimportant."
The quality of movies is subjective. You cannot scientifically prove that Movie A is of more value than Movie B. I realize that the youtuber you like disagrees with this, but he is wrong. You aren't obligated to agree with a youtuber to like them btw.
@@N0TYALC Alright, but the things that happen in the movie are objective. We can all agree that Holdo withheld information from Poe in The Last Jedi. We can make objective judgments as to how that effects the plot. We can make objective judgments on whether this makes sense for a respected military leader to do this. We can objectively come to a conclusion based on the facts present. We can make objective value judgments of logical consistency within a story. We can objectively come to a decision that Movie B has these faults. We can come to an objective decision that movie A does not have these faults. These are things that can be scientifically determined.
@@N0TYALC "Quality of movies is subjective, you cannot compare A to B in terms of quality" ❌ That's not how it works, do you honestly argue this for how House A and House B compare? House A - Cracked windows, Rotten walls, Mice infestation, Slippery floor, Faulty Electricity House B - The exact opposite of House A's problems Which do you say is better quality without saying "It's subjective!" Exactly, House B, the same applies to movies, by your logic we should all absolutely love The Acolyte even though it's a shipwreck quality wise.
@@N0TYALC "The quality of movies is subjective" OK, so the quality of 2 buildings is also subjective, even if A has a dangerous flaw like missing floorboards underneath the floor fabric or rat infestation while B is for the most part a decent building, but objectively and realistically you would go for Building B. Same argument applies to movies and forms of art which all count as something structural as well, Terminator Dark Fate in this case is like Building A whilst Terminator 1984 is Building B.
Remember when Patrick Willems tried this then immediately screwed up by saying the blood not eating through the ship in Alien was a plot hole. Even though the scene he has muted while saying that _is_ the scene where the characters are worried about just that. I forget which of Mauler's laws it is, but that's probably the greatest/worst case of someone using footage that disproves their point.
There's a twenty-second scene of the characters racing through several decks to make sure the blood doesn't eat through the hull. What the fuck is Willems talking about?
Film teachers are the people who make 1-50 *abysmally* bad B movies on a shoestring budget, realize it's not a viable career path for them because they aren't enterprising or resourceful, then default to teaching because the 5-10 bits of practical knowledge about cinema they picked up are prettymuch all they've got to lean on.
@ephraimwinslow I've never been a believer in "those that can't do, teach" until I met all of my film teachers that said shit like "much like all of you, I am a film maker as well!" Crazy how you're here then
@@thiccnicc7469 The entire modern world badly needs a wake up call regarding the absolute state of education. Honestly. *Most* of what's taught is either bunk, useless, out of date, or meant specifically to gaslight you.
@@thiccnicc7469 Yep, all the more reason I'm glad I never made the mistake of going to college because I'd have likely gotten kicked out for back talking the professor and shutting down their psudeo intellectual hot takes on writing. That or, in another timeline, well, I'd have likely ended up making click bait-y yet milquetoast videos full of logical fallacies on RUclips complete with scammy sponsorship ads as a means to pay off that pesky student loans debt.
I like how with the LotR "Eagles" argument, people never mention that when the eagles showed up, it was to counter the Nazgul and their Fell Beasts. If the fellowship took the rings to Mordor on eagles they would have been attacked by the nine.
Tolkien fans when presented with an obvious plot hole: "Ermmmm no well actually you see technically..." Tolkien himself when presented with the exact same obvious plot hole: "Yeah that's a plot hole LOL"
@@N0TYALC Ermmm actually, he said "Shut up" You can say that they should have done that, but it doesn't change that there's not a good reason why an eagle the size of a mid-sized sedan carrying a hobbit carrying the most important thing in all of existence to the most evil entity in all of current existence would not get spotted when a small party on foot would not. Believe it or not, large flying objects stand out more than small terrestrial ones. Rebut, if you will.
@@N0TYALC Except it's not a plot hole, doesn't matter if Tolkien didn't see or say that himself. They didn't fly bombers directly into the heart of Germany in WW2 because they would have been shot down. Make sense to you? Man, you'd make for a shit general lmao
Saying that it’s smart to focus not on plot cohesion but on tonal consistency is like thinking you’re smart for putting large words into your video without grasping the meaning behind them. Oh wait…
Lack of plot cohesion can be a benefit to a film. Plotholes can be a benefit to a film. Examples: Monty Python and the Holy Grail, and Austin Powers: The Spy who Shagged Me. It was funny when King Arthur charged into battle at the climax of the film, only for the 1970's UK police to somehow appear in medieval England, and arrest the Knights of the Round Table. It makes the film's plot utterly incoherent, but that is a boon to the film. It was funny when Austin Powers pointed out the logical inconsistencies of time travel. only for the scientist to look directly at the camera and tell the audience not to take it seriously, and to simply enjoy the wacky, nonsensical story. Holy Grail would be a lesser movie if it ended with King Arthur dying peacefully in his bed, surrounded by his family. The Spy who Shagged Me would be a lesser movie if the scientist responded with "You're correct, time travel is impossible. I guess Doctor Evil wins this round.", then the credits roll.
@@N0TYALC While that's true, it's not a defense of plot inconsistency in all movies. Monty Python and Austin Powers are absurdist comedies, and rely on the nonsense for entertainment. More dramatic story-telling - Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, and so on - are damaged by lacking plot cohesion.
@mediocrestreams3284 Yup. It’s very sad and funny whenever you debunk this stuff and these folks get mad. It isn’t our fault that the work is written like this. Blame the writer. Now, if you like this in spite of the problems, awesome. I like a lot of flawed and bad media. I will defend parts of it but it’s ok to admit when something is bad. For example, Jumper is a really neat film. It’s sadly not well written especially compared to the book. I can still praise and adore how it handled teleportation( one of the best examples I’ve seen in terms of limitations) and how neatly integrated it was. But the plot and characters have problems.
9:41 This example is absolutely hilarious to me. When it comes to uncovering secrets or puzzles in a video-game context gamers will try EVERYTHING. The Ready Player One race would've been cracked by the first week.
First hour, considering how popular the Oasis is. I don't understand why people continued with content that was clearly broken by... doing the same thing over and over again for years. They would just quit if they couldn't find a way to win the race.
I think it's so funny the way they use bring Vader back in E9 as an example of something near impossibly stupid, and they actually brought Creamy Sheev back in TRoS.
@@ephraimwinslow Speaking of schitt taste... I work with people who slop up all the Marvel and Star Wars sludge. They've said multiple times, "I just want anything Star Wars."
@@EnclaveRelayOfficer No, quite the opposite, since in most places cheese is sold by weight by ordering swiss cheese you are spending *less* money on cheese, as the holes reduce the mass and therefore weight of the cheese, presuming equal price and thickness of the slice. For instance, let's say you have a 2"x2" slice of Cheddar, with a depth of .125", and that slice weighs 1/10s of a lbs, and is selling for a price of 3 USD per pound. This means you get 10 slices of cheddar of 3$. Now, take the same measurements and applying them to swiss cheese is fine, but now we have to account for the holes made in the cheese either during the process of making the cheese, or, post processing for artificially created holes. Let's say that out of every slice, you "lose" about 1/2 of the total mass of the cheese slice. This means the total weight for each slice of cheese is .5 *less* than our cheddar (1/10), for a total of .5/10, meaning to reach the same total weight of as our cheddar purchase, we would get twice as much cheese (20 slices) or, if we wanted the same number of slices (10) it would only weigh half as much as our stack of cheddar (.5 vs 1) which means, assuming an equivalent price of 3$ per pound, we'd only be spending 1.5$. Now, while you don't have to pay for the holes in cheese, you *do* have pay for the arbitrary price inflation of the cheese market, and in the united states at least, that's largely controlled by the government through shell organizations, and has been effectively left unchecked, which is why you will rarely find cheese for 3$ per pound, and are much more likely to see prices ranging from 8-10$ per pound. So, you're not paying for the holes in your cheese, but you are paying a *HOLE* lot for cheese! Getit? Getit? It's like the VIDEO!
@@nananamamana3591You typed a lot but I'm not sure why. You'd get twice the number of slices that consist of 50% less cheese each, so it's not any benefit at all. You just in the mood to type?
@ericchung3177 Yup. A rough draft has permission to suck. It’s getting your ideas on paper, based on a blueprint. The craftsmanship comes from redrafting and assessing if everything makes sense. Looking for plot holes and inconsistencies is a must.
Logical consistency within whatever universe you’ve crafted. If you establish that a normal human is a normal human, I’m gonna question why he’s doing Captain America level shit in the later movies. (Looking at you Fast & Furious)
@@Lobsterwithinternet Exactly. If you establish that your character can move so fast that time is in a bottle then you better be sure to account for that.
@@Avarn388 And write your story to make such a character interesting to the audience either through challenging them in some other way or just embracing the concept and making it a cathartic and fun power fantasy.
@@Lobsterwithinternet Yup. All the challenges need to be significant and meaningful. I recently rewatched Reacuers Down under( underrated movie) and Bernard’s character arc was very simple. His internal conflict is that he wishes to propose to his partner Bianca but has to deal with distractions and Jake who also has a crush on her. Plus, his own insecurities . But by the end of the movie he does and shows a backbone when needing to save Cody and stop McCleach.
40:58 Literally not me. I don't want to see characters make obvious mistakes, because even if they learn from them it's not fulfilling. Also, the characters won't learn from their mistakes if the writer doesn't. That's the whole reason we're in this rabbit hole.
Plotholes are just evidence of lazy writers. A small plothole that you would really need to think about can be overlooked, but when movies come out and everything is just thrown together and you can tell they didn't care whether the story worked or not, there is a big difference. You can see passion in storytelling. You can also see nepotistic Hollywood ineptorators spewing trash out and expecting accolades and money and endless worship, by people who would gladly fluff anyone in the business for a pat on the head like Mr. "You're watching movies wrong".
There are plot holes and then there are plot holes. The preference is no plot holes but some movies have small plot holes and the story still survives, albeit somewhat damaged. Unfortunately there are many plot holes who are so large that the story can no longer escape the event horizon of the plot hole.
18:30 WHAT!?? Mof got this backasswards, paying enough attention to a story to remember/figure out where it dose or doesn't makes sense IS WHEN YOU ARE ENGAGED not when you mindlessly nodding along to something your not remembering what's going on He's luck efap wont easy on his mentally inert ass holly heck
It's the difference between nodding along on cue with an instructor, and actually understanding a lesson (such that you can apply the information given successfully).
On the subject of a movie taking you out of the immersion with a plot hole, and also taking yourself out of the movie to think about it more, I have an interesting example of this resulting in a more positive experience. I saw Godzilla Minus One in theaters. The first movie I actively went to go see on release in years, mind you. I noticed something near the end, had a quick back-and-forth in my head because my brain is still on and capable of such things. I thought to myself, hold on, I know because I'm a huge WWII nerd that this is the J7W Shinden that Shikishima is flying. They also say as much in the film. I know that plane did not have an ejection seat installed, so that struck me as a bit of a hole, one that barely anyone who will ever watch that movie would ever notice. Completely understandable, due to how the story plays out, but still a teeny tiny hole in my experience of the film. However, something else caught my eye as I watched that scene, something I didn't even connect until I was on my way home. There was a label on the seat, written in a language I could tell wasn't Japanese, but I couldn't see it well enough. Now, I also know from my nerd shit that Germany did in fact experiment with ejection seats in WWII, and it's not out of the realm of possibility that one might've somehow made its way over to Japan during the war. The fact Tachibana has to point it out to him makes it all the more plausible that it's a modification made to the plane. At this point, it's down to a plot contrivance, not a plot hole. That, I can fully accept, and I also hugely respected the amount of effort and detail that went into such a small thing that only an extreme minority would even recognize in the first place. Taking myself out of the movie improved the experience, because after I had already enjoyed the film to the fullest, I now also had a greater appreciation for the filmmaking process.
I think you fundamentally misunderstand what a plot hole is. Historical inaccuracies are not plot holes. For instance, Gladiator ends with Emperor Commodus being slain in the Flavian Amphitheater by a former legion general, and the Senate executing a coup which restores the Roman Republic. None of that happened. Commodus was strangled by his sparring partner, Pertinax took over as Emperor, and the Empire continued running along for a few more centuries. This isn't a plot hole ridden script, it's simply a bad fanfic Ridley Scott wrote about Commodus's reign. A film doesn't need to be historically accurate to be consistent with itself. In the universe where Godzilla Minus One occurs, there's giant lizards that are capable of destroying cities. And also, that plane has an ejector seat in it.
@@N0TYALC So if Commodus was killed when Maximus whips out an AK-47 and shoots him full of holes - despite AK-47s not existing in this movie before this very moment - that wouldn't be a plot hole, but a historical inaccuracy.
@@TheWickedWizardOfOz1 That is a plot hole because nobody ever carried an AK47 in the arena in the movie. If we witnessed gladiators carrying firearms it wouldn't be a plot hole, just an inconsistence.
39:21 Failure of imagination. Which is a horrible condemnation of someone in a creative line of work. This is literally "I needed for it to all just be a dream because otherwise my character dies." Do. Better. This is why redrafting is such good advice. Read over your story again. Figure out why your main character is currently dying and reverse it. You have the power of meta time travel until you publish your story. Then you lose all that power and become the circus clown, because there is a 8 year old somewhere who did it better.
14:34 So by his logic, if anyone just answers a question on a test with a very convoluted and complicated answer, the teacher should just give him points regardless of if it’s the correct answer?
This is the scoring system used on the British quiz show QI. It's a blast, I recommend checking out any clips you can. Alan starting off a conversation on the best way to save a dying bee with the factually false claim that you should feed it honey led to an especially hilarious debate on the best method to handle said dying bee.
Plot holes are what happen when a writer fails to see if their story makes sense. It’s a contradiction; a glitch in your story. For example, hyper space ramming in TLJ was a colossal plot hole because if that existed why wasn’t it used ever in the OT? This is why whenever you are redrafting your stories you really need to be careful about the details of your story. Because they don’t just affect the present but past and future canon.
Luckily, plot holes have different sizes. A character surviving a fall from a tiny bit higher ground than regular human being is plausible, but the moment he jumps from a skyscraper and survives without any special powers involved is when the story falls apart.
@@cardmaster8772Actually, that's not a pothole. A pothole would be if you established that a character can jump from a skyscraper and survive but he dies from falling off a stool.
Within the first 20 seconds he’s said that plot holes sometimes matter. Meaning only when he feels like it. The problem with these guys is that they’re using one scale. Something that they think is fun, has to therefore be good. If they’d just let that go and judge movies on separate scales, one asking if a movie is fun (subjective) another if a movie is well written and internally consistent (objective), then I’d bet they align with EFAP more than they think. Everyone has movies they like that are poorly made and everyone has movies they dislike that are well made. I can acknowledge that Bladerunner 2049 has problems within its plot, but the atmosphere it provides and the stellar acting make up for than in my enjoyment of that film. I don’t think it’s a well written film objectively, but I do like it subjectively. The Lord Of The Rings is a well written trilogy objectively. It’s just not my cup of tea as a setting, and I get annoyed at the over the top acting sometimes. Even if it makes sense in universe.
The most valuable thing i got from this efap was to stay tf away from Psycho Pass 2. Cus i really wnjoyed S1 i dont want to see what trash it became cus logic is rather important to me.
Listening to this guy dismiss the illogicality of Ready Player One and saying that it works is annoying. The movie changed so much from the book that it became ridiculous how the world's rules work.
My problem with plot holes is the giant ones that take me right out of the movie. I can't focus on plot when my mind is asking 'how did he know that'? It occurs too often as I'm watching, not a re watch.
This guy really read out loud the definition of verisimilitude as if it supported his argument while in reality it’s the ultimate argument against everything he says lol. Verisimilitude literally presumes that plot holes matter, because it says movies SHOULD abide by their own internal logic. It only works as an argument when someone says for example “uh lightsabers aren’t realistic”. According to the rules of the Star Wars Universe, they can exists. It becomes a problem when they consistently show lightsabers being deadly when they come in contact with flesh and in the new series multiple characters survive lightsaber attacks without a good reason. On many occasions they show people just pushing lightsabers into someone and not even attempt to move it around even though Obi Wan showed you could easily cut someone in half with them. This is not even mentioning than now all the tension of lightsaber duels is destroyed because people just survive them now. They weren’t ever realistic in our world, but they were internally consistent until the new Disney shows. Edit: I just realized his definition isn’t even a real definition lol and still it’s an argument against everything he says. How do you fuck up that badly.
@@ephraimwinslow It was obvious that my parents had never had sex, and thus I couldn't have siblings. Or myself. Oh my god, was I the plot hole all along.
One nitpick I've had with Ready player one since i saw the part in the trailers is that when the Gundam shows up they give it the wrong pose. The pose they did was for the ZZ Gundam not the OG.
His attitude towards plotholes and why we shouldnt care just promotes more lazy hack writing and i cant freaking stand it. Even worse for the "writers" that try to piggyback off of someone else's work. Have better standards. Stop promoting this shit. Also shoutouts to Clone Pone. Lol
Dam might have to rewatch Psycho Pass season 2 cos from everything i remember it was structural problems not plot holes or tone that made it weaker than season one
23:05 Kind of get the impression of "waterfall method" in project development, where you go through each step and then get feedback at the end. Also, 36:47, feels like this was jumped over. SAO ABRIDGED? The fandub version? Doesn't have consistency? It's P A R O D Y
I'd love to sit the writers of Ready Player One down and force them to play Tunic, and watch as their brains melt trying to comprehend a single one of the puzzles. For them, it might be akin to torture.
Plot holes don't matter, plot chasms do. If you can ignore the plothole and still enjoy the movie, it's fine, but if it makes the movie bad, then it's a plot chasm.
Me personally I’m not one who subscribes to the “Plot Holes don’t matter” mindset. Because in a lot of ways, yes, they do VERY much matter. Especially when we’re talking about established lore from certain franchises. Although, I do(mostly)agree with the idea of turning your brain off to enjoy some movies. Obviously this isn’t the case for every film cause not everything is subjective and certain media needs to have their flaws pointed out. But ya know I don’t mind in some cases shutting my brain off and just having fun with a film even if it isn’t great. For example, Fast X. It’s absolutely ridiculous. Just like most of the Fast franchise at this point. But can I enjoy it for what it is? Yes.
I think Spielberg lost his touch after the mid 2000s. The guy is so unbelievably talented. Most of the brilliant things he's done seem almost effortless, but a lot of his later movies seem really unmotivated and ugly to me. ReadyPlayerOne is nerd trash. The book reads like the smelliest table of obese DnD simps anyone has ever seen. It's terrible and i still can't believe he signed onto it.
I feel like people that use this argument are just trying to justify their enjoyment of something by pretending the flaws don't exist/matter. It's one thing if you enjoy something that has problems, it's another to act like there isn't anything wrong with it. plot holes do matter since it's the writer breaking their own rules because they wanted to do something but realized they screwed themselves with the limitations they placed on their world. It breaks immersion when the writer is being inconsistent with themselves.
As a fellow weeb, it always makes me cringe when they go over a video that just brings up random literally-who anime and just blindly assumes absolutely everybody knows it with zero explanation. Like here, assuming freaking Sword Art Online and it's Abridged fan series is ingrained in pop culture like Wizard of Oz or something.
I like that argument about how it's Impractical to waste the materials for that Dreadnaught to have a Mole set in the same Movie, where they wasted a lot of resources of sticking 'one of the smart Technological devices' into only ONE ship that isn't even supposed to be utilized in any battle Fleet unless for last resort cause it's supposed to.... ya know... be the Last bastion of the whole Fleet? The arguments are kind of circular and it shows that it's a problem cause theirs not a satisfying answer to it. IF you ask me, a Nitpick is something that can be taken into multiple points/arguments and can have several results that don't change the plot much if not any.. a Plot hole is a situation that is an un-Answered question or missing fact in the logical pathway of the story that breaks how the universe proceeds to follow forward. I talked with someone before about how a series like '24' (Or another Action TV series from the 90's-Early 00' )Handled time shifts between scenes by most of the time having cuts of character actions happening during scene transitions to show how much time ahs progressed between the last set piece to the next giving the viewer a since of time it takes to set things up. unlike some series where the characters lightly brush over how they escaped a more intense/Tricky situation and are not going to elaborate on it further.. this also having the ridiculous notion that cause it's a TV series and we don't have to know all the information, but it uses 'Real World' situations/information to shortcut their way through world building... meaning that if someone with a High bounty wanted alert is the hero, having them just suddenly appear to have traveled several countries, check points, Legal institutes all looking for them and it being a gloss over of 'Was hard to get here without being caught' it's a Plot hole since not even Low level criminals now a days can cross borders without being noticed by 'Something' within 24 hours in Many instances.... let alone something as high regarding a murdered officer in a lot of these series.
28:34 Well they have some duty to adhere to some elements of history, otherwise they've moved out of historical fiction and just become fiction, right?
38:36 Okay. He repeated his garbage point. Now I'm getting pissed off at him. Literally yes. There is a good example of a contrivance or plot hole in a manhwa I like where the MC goes on a wild goose chase. The plot point does absolutely nothing for anyone and only serves to make the story worse. Removing it would absolutely and unquestionably make the story better. If you can't figure out how to make your story happen without resorting to ridiculous contrivance, or worse yet actual plot holes, you suck at writing. A lot of story issues would be solved with a simple redraft. You as the writer have the power: You can make things happen retroactively. There's several layers of problems with the story arc, but focusing on the particularly redundant part: MC is dying from fantasy cancer. He buys information from a merchant that essentially tells him that he can be healed by a person in the city is headed towards. He is dying rapidly and needs to search an entire city based on a name. He doesn't need a name, because he literally bumps into someone he knows who leads him to a person who can heal him. There was no reason for him to make the trade, because the information (which he realistically should know already) is useless to him. The plot didn't benefit from the trade since he never needed that information in the first place. All he needed to do was to do what he would've naturally done anyways.
34:54 If it was a masterpiece it would be something else. Also the MC dont need to pull his sword Rags, because he is so OP no one stands a chance against him Rags. He can literally just stand there while people attack him, because his lvl is so high. Part of why its so boring, is because of this little Mary-sue.
Plot holes are 100% avoidable, it's not like what the writer writes is chiselled in rock. It can be rewritten, world rules can be adjusted, character motives, behaviours and so on changed. Contrivances are often a part of a story and depends on your tolerance as well a good contrivance can be overlooked with yeh I guess no one could do, attempt or think of this or they got lucky. Ya know like the most common contrivance is the lucky bounce where that knife falls right next to characters hand and allows them to win. In a good story that can overlooked but if it was say a knife that can cut through flesh like butter but suddenly it just loses that ability for this entire fight than yeh it's like WTF why did you write it like that? You could have introduced a material early that resisted it OR done something like a power source? Some magical stun effect? Anything.
@MajorSmurf Having hung around a lot of different writing circles( I’m writing a book right now), a lot of this mentality of plot holes and rules may come from two factors. One is that writers don’t want to feel shackled and want to do whatever they want. And on one hand, I see where they are coming from. We are creating fictional worlds and characters and thus it’s a part of who we are. But at the same time, having a strong internal logic actually makes you a better creative. When you impose rules on your world or story, it forces you to be more creative. You want a character to be wounded and survive? Fine. Make it make sense. Frodo surviving the cave troll spear for example with mithril vest. Spielberg with Jaws made a better film with the shark puppet not working well in the water. The second reason I believe there is pushback is validation. This will be harsh but I find a lot of writers want validation for the stuff they’ve written. More specifically the fact that they’ve written something. While I won’t trounce on a writer for finishing a script or manuscript( writing is hard and half the battle is finishing), I find this to be a toxic mindset because you aren’t entitled to an audience. Customers have every right to point out what’s wrong or good with your work. Suspend one’s pride and actually go through your work, questioning your choices. Get a pair of eyes who is objective and look through your work and redraft. You won’t catch every problem but it really shows when you put the time and care into your work.
@@Avarn388 Yeh totally agree with all of that. One of the things I think with film/game writers that makes them different to say even novice book writers is the need to feel different, or being overly ambitious because they're being paid. So they hate the obvious answer that the story or overall narrative is clearly pointing to or they end up adding too many pieces, some super CG fight that blows away people, or a clashing narrative point that doesn't mesh well with the rest and that's when it becomes a mess. It's one of the things that most book writers will know and avoid because generally speaking book writers are doing it more as a hobby before it being a full time job, whereas film/game writers might feel that they need to make this a masterpiece or trying more wacky things. The idea that you story needs to be the next masterpiece of storytelling that did something truly unique or different is often bad. Not saying it's always like that but there is a reason say revenge stories end with the target of MC dying in some satisfying way.
Ok I really do like most of SAO, but obviously it would be better, looking back on it, if it was a masterpiece. It would just make it that much more enjoyable.
@@JumpierNewt8956 this primary source of tension for Ragnorok is "Kratos will die" foreshadowed heavily in the end of GOW 2018 then they doubled down on it ragnorok! Then for some reason he just....doesn't die and it's never properly explained. I've never seen anything like that in a story in my life, the writers just said "nah he lives, make up your own reason why"
i dont know why rags just winds me up. like bringing up " FUN FACT your making a video you are talking......yout music has lyrics. UHMMM ACHULLY you shouldnt do this because...... " like ok bro, that adds nothing and derails, then bro uses a tiny tangent to pull focus back to him and to brag about owning a bunch of guns that he shoots. and how guns are hard. no shitt. dude is that redditor "its Frankenstein's MONSTER, Frankenstein was the doctor!! " i wish someone would tell him to stop derailing. hes a walking minfield on ruining the flow he might be a nice guy but he needs to learn that he doesnt need to prove hes smart or that hes cool. sometimes saying nothing is the smartest move. so rags, i know im being mean but you need to chill mate
war is a battle of two clashing beliefs or wills.... so the fact that if everyone is logical then there is no conflict is so dumb of a take personally. people can logically deduce problems but not everyone will get to the same answer to a problem or said problem will be different from person to person
That is absolutely not what war is. War is an armed conflict between the armed forces of states. Arguing on the internet about a children's movie is not war. What an embarrassing take lol, i stopped reading after that.
Everything of what this guy, and others like him, are saying has been said before, but of art forms other than storytelling. Everything that feminist/woke film makers are doing has been done before to art forms other than storytelling. It's all the same playbook. They aren't trying to subvert expectations as much as the art form, itself. It's all about demoralization. The lack of beauty has a negative psychological impact on people, that's the end goal. However, they can't do it to storytelling because it, as an art form, can't be further reduced. Storytelling can't exist seperately from communicating ideas. A painting doesn't need logic, but every story does because, without that, it becomes less identifiable as a story. So, they're forced to present their bad ideas, which breakdown the logic of the story.
"I guess I made his point before he said it" Yeah, that is kind of the problem with pausing at every frame. You argue against what you assume someone is saying before you even let them finish a sentence.
@dkirby9052 Try hearing out *every* unwashed Fentaghoul you cross paths with for 1~ month, then tell me how eager you are to let them finish reciting their specific version of the homeless prayer.
@ No method of responding live is going to be without flaw. I think the way they do it is about as good as it ever gets. A later clarification could come at any point in a video being responded to, and short of watching the entire thing in silence while taking notes and then responding to everything all at once point by point, there's no way to account for that (never mind the completely valid copyright strikes you'd get hit with doing this). What's your suggestion for a better method than pausing when you _think_ a complete point has been made, responding to that, then continuing the video and making corrections when necessary (not often)?
eeeh your guesses statement here kinda lose some strength with me with how you all handled arcane season 2. it was a shitshow of a review full of just weird bias. ya treated a eight out of ten series like it was 5 out of ten and its pretty ridiculous the lengths you went to construe everything as bad. feel like you guys are so used to seeing trash that you overrected to a drop in quality and cohesion. though part of me wonders if it was deliberate chaos. worst was the......... seriously that flashback scene solidified characters not ruiend em. vander literally also adopted two boys if you remember. Buyt it also full contextualized silco and his contrast between vander. vander was the heart and compassion, desiring all being well for his peeps. But he lacked the vision and forethought, and that is why he was ultimately betrayed cause for as much as they loved him, he was keeping them under the heel of piltover. and a compassionate heart can become a violent heart. wise men fear the anger of a patient man. Silco has all the vision and ambition and has good intentions, but he isn't as moral and compassionate as Vander. I imagine that vi's mom's death was in part his fault, he pushed something too far, and vander tried to kill him in vengeance. Silco thus abandoned the morality and compassion complately to try and get what he felt was necessary and fufill his ambitions. He likely presumed the worse of Vander and that he'd turn his friends kids against him, unknowing that he basically didn't tell him about silco at all let alone turn em against him. he adopted powder cause he raeilzed that vander did not turn powder against him. that commpassion awoke, if but a small spark, and took her in. Vander and silco balance each other out.
The Count of Monte Cristo, (THE BOOK!!) Has to be one of the greater books I've ever read. It is TIGHT TIGHT, eloquently verbalized, genuinely, I can find only ONE plot hole, but it isn't even worth mentioning since the time frame and the town the story takes place in, as well as how SMALL the population was in the boatport town. It isnt a droll, diatribe of DRAGGED ON METAPHORS; Such as Blood Meridian. That book is pointlessly contrived. While people LOVE the insane amount of plot holes ENFORCED for, *"Metaphorical Rhetoric."*
The frustrating truth is? Everyone has the same definition of genius: "Someone who thinks like me, but moreso." And in the era of brainrot where the odds of serious 'tism are about 1/10 (and CLIMBING)? ...Yeah. Yeah. Just... yeah. I don't wanna elaborate further, 'cuz it makes me sad. :(
18:30 WHAT!?? Mof got this backasswards, paying enough attention to a story to remember/figure out where it dose or doesn't makes sense IS WHEN YOU ARE ENGAGED not when you mindlessly nodding along to something your not remembering what's going on He's luck efap wont easy on his mentally inert ass holly heck
The only people that claim plot holes are meaningless are just coping so that we will accept their terrible fanfic as good writing.
This! My best friend became very "everything is subjective and plot holes are meaningless/don't exist" when he became a creative lul
Oh yeah? Tell that to Zod's snapped neck!
I don't see the trouble some people have with acknowledging flaws in a product and enjoying it anyway. For me, it's Spider-Man 3.
@ For me, it's The Village. It's such a beautiful romance movie that captures its themes of love and courage with such passion that I fell head over heels for it. It also doesn't make a lick of sense with more than a cursory glance at its worldbuilding, but I love it all the same. At least the logical inconsistencies don't really work against the thematic ideas that Shyamalan is exploring - it still works perfectly well in its core narrative with Ivy, Edward and Lucius, and how their love has the power to change the world - Shyamalan's faults lie in the broader worldbuilding problems.
Spidey 3 rocks, btw. Yes, it's a mess, but a glorious one.
@
I have such an embarrassingly long list of "things I enjoyed*" at this point...
The real trouble starts when you can *actually* focus on the stuff you do like, while tuning out the rest. Once you master that? You find yourself arguing the virtues of the *most* awful stuff with absolute sincerity.
...'Cuz you legit barely noticed the awful bits, you were looking at an entirely different part of the painting and having a quiet internal dialogue about how it made you feel.
I'm just gonna throw this out there: I understand the impulse to defend garbage, I really do.
I find things to enjoy in even the most porous of stories... but that doesn't make those stories good.
You have to learn the difference at some point between arguing:
"I like the taste of cheeseburgers."
vs.
"Nutritional value is unimportant."
The quality of movies is subjective. You cannot scientifically prove that Movie A is of more value than Movie B. I realize that the youtuber you like disagrees with this, but he is wrong. You aren't obligated to agree with a youtuber to like them btw.
@@N0TYALC Alright, but the things that happen in the movie are objective. We can all agree that Holdo withheld information from Poe in The Last Jedi. We can make objective judgments as to how that effects the plot. We can make objective judgments on whether this makes sense for a respected military leader to do this. We can objectively come to a conclusion based on the facts present. We can make objective value judgments of logical consistency within a story. We can objectively come to a decision that Movie B has these faults. We can come to an objective decision that movie A does not have these faults. These are things that can be scientifically determined.
@@N0TYALC
"more value"
Literally all you have to do is define value, and your entire spiel collapses.
(You're not as clever as you think, btw.)
@@N0TYALC
"Quality of movies is subjective, you cannot compare A to B in terms of quality" ❌
That's not how it works, do you honestly argue this for how House A and House B compare?
House A - Cracked windows, Rotten walls, Mice infestation, Slippery floor, Faulty Electricity
House B - The exact opposite of House A's problems
Which do you say is better quality without saying "It's subjective!"
Exactly, House B, the same applies to movies, by your logic we should all absolutely love The Acolyte even though it's a shipwreck quality wise.
@@N0TYALC
"The quality of movies is subjective" OK, so the quality of 2 buildings is also subjective, even if A has a dangerous flaw like missing floorboards underneath the floor fabric or rat infestation while B is for the most part a decent building, but objectively and realistically you would go for Building B.
Same argument applies to movies and forms of art which all count as something structural as well, Terminator Dark Fate in this case is like Building A whilst Terminator 1984 is Building B.
Remember when Patrick Willems tried this then immediately screwed up by saying the blood not eating through the ship in Alien was a plot hole. Even though the scene he has muted while saying that _is_ the scene where the characters are worried about just that.
I forget which of Mauler's laws it is, but that's probably the greatest/worst case of someone using footage that disproves their point.
I believe the OG terminology was:
"Being hoisted by one's own petard."
Remember, when a RUclipsr says something about a piece of media and they don't provide a clip for context they're probably wrong.
There's a twenty-second scene of the characters racing through several decks to make sure the blood doesn't eat through the hull. What the fuck is Willems talking about?
I had a film teacher try to explain to me that "continuity doesnt matter" and it had the exact same vibe as this video essay. Stupidity and all
Film teachers are the people who make 1-50 *abysmally* bad B movies on a shoestring budget, realize it's not a viable career path for them because they aren't enterprising or resourceful, then default to teaching because the 5-10 bits of practical knowledge about cinema they picked up are prettymuch all they've got to lean on.
@ephraimwinslow I've never been a believer in "those that can't do, teach" until I met all of my film teachers that said shit like "much like all of you, I am a film maker as well!" Crazy how you're here then
@@thiccnicc7469 The entire modern world badly needs a wake up call regarding the absolute state of education. Honestly.
*Most* of what's taught is either bunk, useless, out of date, or meant specifically to gaslight you.
Continuity / plot holes aren't always the most important things, but they ALWAYS matter
@@thiccnicc7469 Yep, all the more reason I'm glad I never made the mistake of going to college because I'd have likely gotten kicked out for back talking the professor and shutting down their psudeo intellectual hot takes on writing.
That or, in another timeline, well, I'd have likely ended up making click bait-y yet milquetoast videos full of logical fallacies on RUclips complete with scammy sponsorship ads as a means to pay off that pesky student loans debt.
I like how with the LotR "Eagles" argument, people never mention that when the eagles showed up, it was to counter the Nazgul and their Fell Beasts. If the fellowship took the rings to Mordor on eagles they would have been attacked by the nine.
Not to mention that the Eagles could be corrupted by the Ring too as well as act as a big target for Sauron to find.
Tolkien fans when presented with an obvious plot hole: "Ermmmm no well actually you see technically..."
Tolkien himself when presented with the exact same obvious plot hole: "Yeah that's a plot hole LOL"
@@N0TYALC Ermmm actually, he said "Shut up" You can say that they should have done that, but it doesn't change that there's not a good reason why an eagle the size of a mid-sized sedan carrying a hobbit carrying the most important thing in all of existence to the most evil entity in all of current existence would not get spotted when a small party on foot would not. Believe it or not, large flying objects stand out more than small terrestrial ones. Rebut, if you will.
@@N0TYALC When did he say that?
@@N0TYALC Except it's not a plot hole, doesn't matter if Tolkien didn't see or say that himself. They didn't fly bombers directly into the heart of Germany in WW2 because they would have been shot down. Make sense to you? Man, you'd make for a shit general lmao
Hey, this isn't Patrick Willams!
Wolf keeps subverting our expectations!
Patrick Williams isn't a tangible thing. He's An Idea!!!
Saying that it’s smart to focus not on plot cohesion but on tonal consistency is like thinking you’re smart for putting large words into your video without grasping the meaning behind them.
Oh wait…
Lack of plot cohesion can be a benefit to a film. Plotholes can be a benefit to a film. Examples: Monty Python and the Holy Grail, and Austin Powers: The Spy who Shagged Me. It was funny when King Arthur charged into battle at the climax of the film, only for the 1970's UK police to somehow appear in medieval England, and arrest the Knights of the Round Table. It makes the film's plot utterly incoherent, but that is a boon to the film. It was funny when Austin Powers pointed out the logical inconsistencies of time travel. only for the scientist to look directly at the camera and tell the audience not to take it seriously, and to simply enjoy the wacky, nonsensical story.
Holy Grail would be a lesser movie if it ended with King Arthur dying peacefully in his bed, surrounded by his family. The Spy who Shagged Me would be a lesser movie if the scientist responded with "You're correct, time travel is impossible. I guess Doctor Evil wins this round.", then the credits roll.
V E R I S I M I L I T U D E
@@N0TYALC Notice how both of your examples are comedies, and rather tongue-in-cheek ones at that.
@@N0TYALC While that's true, it's not a defense of plot inconsistency in all movies. Monty Python and Austin Powers are absurdist comedies, and rely on the nonsense for entertainment. More dramatic story-telling - Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, and so on - are damaged by lacking plot cohesion.
None of this plot hole talk was around until TLJ. Remember that. Videos like this only exist because people are desperate to defend that turd
@mediocrestreams3284 Yup. It’s very sad and funny whenever you debunk this stuff and these folks get mad. It isn’t our fault that the work is written like this. Blame the writer. Now, if you like this in spite of the problems, awesome. I like a lot of flawed and bad media.
I will defend parts of it but it’s ok to admit when something is bad. For example, Jumper is a really neat film. It’s sadly not well written especially compared to the book. I can still praise and adore how it handled teleportation( one of the best examples I’ve seen in terms of limitations) and how neatly integrated it was. But the plot and characters have problems.
9:41 This example is absolutely hilarious to me. When it comes to uncovering secrets or puzzles in a video-game context gamers will try EVERYTHING. The Ready Player One race would've been cracked by the first week.
First hour, considering how popular the Oasis is. I don't understand why people continued with content that was clearly broken by... doing the same thing over and over again for years. They would just quit if they couldn't find a way to win the race.
"you don't die from getting stabbed, you die from bleeding out, you aren't actually worried about being stabbed!" - bilbonious baggonius.
It's not the fall that kills you, it's the sudden stop
I think it's so funny the way they use bring Vader back in E9 as an example of something near impossibly stupid, and they actually brought Creamy Sheev back in TRoS.
So thos guys thesis is that "plot holes don't matter except the ones I don't like"
Prettymuch. That's the one and only point most spectrum dwellers have to make.
How can anyone seriously say that? Of course plot holes matter wtf
By having Schitt taste and very thin skin.
They are married to shovelware fiction, and so seek to defend its honor accordingly.
@@ephraimwinslow Speaking of schitt taste... I work with people who slop up all the Marvel and Star Wars sludge. They've said multiple times, "I just want anything Star Wars."
Those holes in your boat don't matter. Just enjoy that you're even at the beach- why wouldn't you want to take a dip in the ocean?
@@justincider8892 I worked with a guy like that who got VERY angy and defensive when I told him my favorite Sith is Darth Tardo lol
What concerns “cerebral logic” more than the structure of the plot?!
People who aren't concerned with plot holes must think Swiss cheese is a flawless design.
It is. Have you never had Swiss cheese? Good stuff.
I've heard the process for making it has become too healthy/sterile to produce the holes, so they add them artificially.
Do you have to pay for the holes in Swiss cheese?
@@EnclaveRelayOfficer
No, quite the opposite, since in most places cheese is sold by weight by ordering swiss cheese you are spending *less* money on cheese, as the holes reduce the mass and therefore weight of the cheese, presuming equal price and thickness of the slice.
For instance, let's say you have a 2"x2" slice of Cheddar, with a depth of .125", and that slice weighs 1/10s of a lbs, and is selling for a price of 3 USD per pound. This means you get 10 slices of cheddar of 3$.
Now, take the same measurements and applying them to swiss cheese is fine, but now we have to account for the holes made in the cheese either during the process of making the cheese, or, post processing for artificially created holes. Let's say that out of every slice, you "lose" about 1/2 of the total mass of the cheese slice. This means the total weight for each slice of cheese is .5 *less* than our cheddar (1/10), for a total of .5/10, meaning to reach the same total weight of as our cheddar purchase, we would get twice as much cheese (20 slices) or, if we wanted the same number of slices (10) it would only weigh half as much as our stack of cheddar (.5 vs 1) which means, assuming an equivalent price of 3$ per pound, we'd only be spending 1.5$.
Now, while you don't have to pay for the holes in cheese, you *do* have pay for the arbitrary price inflation of the cheese market, and in the united states at least, that's largely controlled by the government through shell organizations, and has been effectively left unchecked, which is why you will rarely find cheese for 3$ per pound, and are much more likely to see prices ranging from 8-10$ per pound.
So, you're not paying for the holes in your cheese, but you are paying a *HOLE* lot for cheese! Getit? Getit? It's like the VIDEO!
@@nananamamana3591You typed a lot but I'm not sure why. You'd get twice the number of slices that consist of 50% less cheese each, so it's not any benefit at all. You just in the mood to type?
Plot holes matter in a world where rewrites exist, mr crossed arms cartoon man.
@ericchung3177 Yup. A rough draft has permission to suck. It’s getting your ideas on paper, based on a blueprint. The craftsmanship comes from redrafting and assessing if everything makes sense. Looking for plot holes and inconsistencies is a must.
plotholes don't matter, dialogue doesn't matter, runtime doesn't matter, subjects don't matter...
nothing matters
It don't matter. None of this matters.
Owlman at the end of Crisis on Two Earths.
"It doesn't matter."
The point of verisimilitude is that despite all of the potentially fantastic elements, a story should still be true to natural laws.
Or at least the laws established for the world the story takes place in.
Logical consistency within whatever universe you’ve crafted.
If you establish that a normal human is a normal human, I’m gonna question why he’s doing Captain America level shit in the later movies. (Looking at you Fast & Furious)
@@Lobsterwithinternet Exactly. If you establish that your character can move so fast that time is in a bottle then you better be sure to account for that.
@@Avarn388 And write your story to make such a character interesting to the audience either through challenging them in some other way or just embracing the concept and making it a cathartic and fun power fantasy.
@@Lobsterwithinternet Yup. All the challenges need to be significant and meaningful. I recently rewatched Reacuers Down under( underrated movie) and Bernard’s character arc was very simple. His internal conflict is that he wishes to propose to his partner Bianca but has to deal with distractions and Jake who also has a crush on her. Plus, his own insecurities . But by the end of the movie he does and shows a backbone when needing to save Cody and stop McCleach.
40:58 Literally not me. I don't want to see characters make obvious mistakes, because even if they learn from them it's not fulfilling. Also, the characters won't learn from their mistakes if the writer doesn't. That's the whole reason we're in this rabbit hole.
Sharknado never condescended to me or told me I was "bad'
Sure, I never watched it, but I have zero problem with Sharknado
I remember this guy. He was so naive it felt like punching down. He took it well if I recall.
Plotholes are just evidence of lazy writers. A small plothole that you would really need to think about can be overlooked, but when movies come out and everything is just thrown together and you can tell they didn't care whether the story worked or not, there is a big difference.
You can see passion in storytelling. You can also see nepotistic Hollywood ineptorators spewing trash out and expecting accolades and money and endless worship, by people who would gladly fluff anyone in the business for a pat on the head like Mr. "You're watching movies wrong".
Sharknado is satire of disaster horror, and is very good.
There are plot holes and then there are plot holes. The preference is no plot holes but some movies have small plot holes and the story still survives, albeit somewhat damaged. Unfortunately there are many plot holes who are so large that the story can no longer escape the event horizon of the plot hole.
18:30 WHAT!?? Mof got this backasswards, paying enough attention to a story to remember/figure out where it dose or doesn't makes sense IS WHEN YOU ARE ENGAGED not when you mindlessly nodding along to something your not remembering what's going on
He's luck efap wont easy on his mentally inert ass holly heck
It's the difference between nodding along on cue with an instructor, and actually understanding a lesson (such that you can apply the information given successfully).
Mauler was almost prophetic when he gave the example of episode 9 bringing Vader back.
24:28 This is probably one of the funniest quotes in EFAP history. Directly making everything he said in his entire video wrong and useless.
"Plot holes don't matter"
People with common sense: yes, yes they do
On the subject of a movie taking you out of the immersion with a plot hole, and also taking yourself out of the movie to think about it more, I have an interesting example of this resulting in a more positive experience. I saw Godzilla Minus One in theaters. The first movie I actively went to go see on release in years, mind you. I noticed something near the end, had a quick back-and-forth in my head because my brain is still on and capable of such things.
I thought to myself, hold on, I know because I'm a huge WWII nerd that this is the J7W Shinden that Shikishima is flying. They also say as much in the film. I know that plane did not have an ejection seat installed, so that struck me as a bit of a hole, one that barely anyone who will ever watch that movie would ever notice. Completely understandable, due to how the story plays out, but still a teeny tiny hole in my experience of the film.
However, something else caught my eye as I watched that scene, something I didn't even connect until I was on my way home. There was a label on the seat, written in a language I could tell wasn't Japanese, but I couldn't see it well enough. Now, I also know from my nerd shit that Germany did in fact experiment with ejection seats in WWII, and it's not out of the realm of possibility that one might've somehow made its way over to Japan during the war. The fact Tachibana has to point it out to him makes it all the more plausible that it's a modification made to the plane.
At this point, it's down to a plot contrivance, not a plot hole. That, I can fully accept, and I also hugely respected the amount of effort and detail that went into such a small thing that only an extreme minority would even recognize in the first place. Taking myself out of the movie improved the experience, because after I had already enjoyed the film to the fullest, I now also had a greater appreciation for the filmmaking process.
I think you fundamentally misunderstand what a plot hole is. Historical inaccuracies are not plot holes. For instance, Gladiator ends with Emperor Commodus being slain in the Flavian Amphitheater by a former legion general, and the Senate executing a coup which restores the Roman Republic. None of that happened. Commodus was strangled by his sparring partner, Pertinax took over as Emperor, and the Empire continued running along for a few more centuries. This isn't a plot hole ridden script, it's simply a bad fanfic Ridley Scott wrote about Commodus's reign. A film doesn't need to be historically accurate to be consistent with itself. In the universe where Godzilla Minus One occurs, there's giant lizards that are capable of destroying cities. And also, that plane has an ejector seat in it.
@@N0TYALC So if Commodus was killed when Maximus whips out an AK-47 and shoots him full of holes - despite AK-47s not existing in this movie before this very moment - that wouldn't be a plot hole, but a historical inaccuracy.
@@TheWickedWizardOfOz1 That is a plot hole because nobody ever carried an AK47 in the arena in the movie. If we witnessed gladiators carrying firearms it wouldn't be a plot hole, just an inconsistence.
@@Lampoluke Precisely.
MUH THEMES!!! MUH FEELS!!!
39:21 Failure of imagination. Which is a horrible condemnation of someone in a creative line of work.
This is literally "I needed for it to all just be a dream because otherwise my character dies." Do. Better.
This is why redrafting is such good advice. Read over your story again. Figure out why your main character is currently dying and reverse it. You have the power of meta time travel until you publish your story. Then you lose all that power and become the circus clown, because there is a 8 year old somewhere who did it better.
"Somehow vader returned"
Damn first season memories
14:34 So by his logic, if anyone just answers a question on a test with a very convoluted and complicated answer, the teacher should just give him points regardless of if it’s the correct answer?
This is the scoring system used on the British quiz show QI. It's a blast, I recommend checking out any clips you can. Alan starting off a conversation on the best way to save a dying bee with the factually false claim that you should feed it honey led to an especially hilarious debate on the best method to handle said dying bee.
This is one of the many people I wanna ask how they'd feel if they didn't eat breakfast
Plot holes are what happen when a writer fails to see if their story makes sense. It’s a contradiction; a glitch in your story. For example, hyper space ramming in TLJ was a colossal plot hole because if that existed why wasn’t it used ever in the OT? This is why whenever you are redrafting your stories you really need to be careful about the details of your story. Because they don’t just affect the present but past and future canon.
Luckily, plot holes have different sizes. A character surviving a fall from a tiny bit higher ground than regular human being is plausible, but the moment he jumps from a skyscraper and survives without any special powers involved is when the story falls apart.
@@cardmaster8772Actually, that's not a pothole.
A pothole would be if you established that a character can jump from a skyscraper and survive but he dies from falling off a stool.
@
Actually, a pothole is an indentation in pavement that wears out the shocks on your car.
@@ephraimwinslow 🤦♂️ Oof.
@
You wrote that in a comments section where Rags has fans. You cannot tell me pun-related humour is unexpected. lol
Within the first 20 seconds he’s said that plot holes sometimes matter. Meaning only when he feels like it.
The problem with these guys is that they’re using one scale. Something that they think is fun, has to therefore be good. If they’d just let that go and judge movies on separate scales, one asking if a movie is fun (subjective) another if a movie is well written and internally consistent (objective), then I’d bet they align with EFAP more than they think. Everyone has movies they like that are poorly made and everyone has movies they dislike that are well made.
I can acknowledge that Bladerunner 2049 has problems within its plot, but the atmosphere it provides and the stellar acting make up for than in my enjoyment of that film. I don’t think it’s a well written film objectively, but I do like it subjectively. The Lord Of The Rings is a well written trilogy objectively. It’s just not my cup of tea as a setting, and I get annoyed at the over the top acting sometimes. Even if it makes sense in universe.
Not only cant things be coherent without logic, "things happening" is a sequence of events that requires logic regardless of their relation.
The most valuable thing i got from this efap was to stay tf away from Psycho Pass 2. Cus i really wnjoyed S1 i dont want to see what trash it became cus logic is rather important to me.
These silly videos are a nice blast from the past. It's a pity that people still think this lmao
Sharknado seems unlikely but their cases of poison dart frogs being flung from South America to Florida IYKYK
Thank goodness Mauler’s learned how not to breathe into the mic😅
*gets punched by hulk fist*
Listening to this guy dismiss the illogicality of Ready Player One and saying that it works is annoying. The movie changed so much from the book that it became ridiculous how the world's rules work.
"More thinky"
My problem with plot holes is the giant ones that take me right out of the movie. I can't focus on plot when my mind is asking 'how did he know that'? It occurs too often as I'm watching, not a re watch.
"Plotholes don't matter, unless they do" is pretty much this guys whole take 😂 Also, him using LoTR music is distasteful..... to me
This guy really read out loud the definition of verisimilitude as if it supported his argument while in reality it’s the ultimate argument against everything he says lol. Verisimilitude literally presumes that plot holes matter, because it says movies SHOULD abide by their own internal logic.
It only works as an argument when someone says for example “uh lightsabers aren’t realistic”. According to the rules of the Star Wars Universe, they can exists. It becomes a problem when they consistently show lightsabers being deadly when they come in contact with flesh and in the new series multiple characters survive lightsaber attacks without a good reason. On many occasions they show people just pushing lightsabers into someone and not even attempt to move it around even though Obi Wan showed you could easily cut someone in half with them. This is not even mentioning than now all the tension of lightsaber duels is destroyed because people just survive them now.
They weren’t ever realistic in our world, but they were internally consistent until the new Disney shows.
Edit: I just realized his definition isn’t even a real definition lol and still it’s an argument against everything he says. How do you fuck up that badly.
49:18
This is it. This moment right here is what this all was leading to.
What's the big deal? I grew up surrounded by plot holes.
That's an uncommonly harsh way to describe your siblings...
It's a big deal because plot holes are distasteful
to me!
@@ephraimwinslow It was obvious that my parents had never had sex, and thus I couldn't have siblings. Or myself. Oh my god, was I the plot hole all along.
The big deal is the state not filling in those plot holes, but instead rebuild the main street three times a year.
One nitpick I've had with Ready player one since i saw the part in the trailers is that when the Gundam shows up they give it the wrong pose. The pose they did was for the ZZ Gundam not the OG.
Wait a minute, someone made a video essay defending the plot holes? What? Congrats, that left even a professional yapper like me speechless....
His attitude towards plotholes and why we shouldnt care just promotes more lazy hack writing and i cant freaking stand it. Even worse for the "writers" that try to piggyback off of someone else's work. Have better standards. Stop promoting this shit. Also shoutouts to Clone Pone. Lol
I wish CJ was on EFAP more often ☹
@sliverscorpio24 Same. I love his channel.
Dam might have to rewatch Psycho Pass season 2 cos from everything i remember it was structural problems not plot holes or tone that made it weaker than season one
23:05
Kind of get the impression of "waterfall method" in project development, where you go through each step and then get feedback at the end.
Also, 36:47, feels like this was jumped over. SAO ABRIDGED? The fandub version? Doesn't have consistency? It's P A R O D Y
I'd love to sit the writers of Ready Player One down and force them to play Tunic, and watch as their brains melt trying to comprehend a single one of the puzzles.
For them, it might be akin to torture.
Plot holes don't matter, plot chasms do.
If you can ignore the plothole and still enjoy the movie, it's fine, but if it makes the movie bad, then it's a plot chasm.
Plot holes punish viewers for trying to engage with a piece of entertainment.
Me personally I’m not one who subscribes to the “Plot Holes don’t matter” mindset. Because in a lot of ways, yes, they do VERY much matter. Especially when we’re talking about established lore from certain franchises. Although, I do(mostly)agree with the idea of turning your brain off to enjoy some movies. Obviously this isn’t the case for every film cause not everything is subjective and certain media needs to have their flaws pointed out. But ya know I don’t mind in some cases shutting my brain off and just having fun with a film even if it isn’t great. For example, Fast X. It’s absolutely ridiculous. Just like most of the Fast franchise at this point. But can I enjoy it for what it is? Yes.
16:12 he just tried to argue that your initial impression should not change given additional information that's really dumb
I think Spielberg lost his touch after the mid 2000s. The guy is so unbelievably talented. Most of the brilliant things he's done seem almost effortless, but a lot of his later movies seem really unmotivated and ugly to me.
ReadyPlayerOne is nerd trash. The book reads like the smelliest table of obese DnD simps anyone has ever seen.
It's terrible and i still can't believe he signed onto it.
I feel like people that use this argument are just trying to justify their enjoyment of something by pretending the flaws don't exist/matter. It's one thing if you enjoy something that has problems, it's another to act like there isn't anything wrong with it. plot holes do matter since it's the writer breaking their own rules because they wanted to do something but realized they screwed themselves with the limitations they placed on their world. It breaks immersion when the writer is being inconsistent with themselves.
As a fellow weeb, it always makes me cringe when they go over a video that just brings up random literally-who anime and just blindly assumes absolutely everybody knows it with zero explanation. Like here, assuming freaking Sword Art Online and it's Abridged fan series is ingrained in pop culture like Wizard of Oz or something.
Plotholes always matter when there are few and the rest of the story shines they can be overlooked but they can definitely destroy the story
I like that argument about how it's Impractical to waste the materials for that Dreadnaught to have a Mole set in the same Movie, where they wasted a lot of resources of sticking 'one of the smart Technological devices' into only ONE ship that isn't even supposed to be utilized in any battle Fleet unless for last resort cause it's supposed to.... ya know... be the Last bastion of the whole Fleet? The arguments are kind of circular and it shows that it's a problem cause theirs not a satisfying answer to it.
IF you ask me, a Nitpick is something that can be taken into multiple points/arguments and can have several results that don't change the plot much if not any.. a Plot hole is a situation that is an un-Answered question or missing fact in the logical pathway of the story that breaks how the universe proceeds to follow forward. I talked with someone before about how a series like '24' (Or another Action TV series from the 90's-Early 00' )Handled time shifts between scenes by most of the time having cuts of character actions happening during scene transitions to show how much time ahs progressed between the last set piece to the next giving the viewer a since of time it takes to set things up.
unlike some series where the characters lightly brush over how they escaped a more intense/Tricky situation and are not going to elaborate on it further.. this also having the ridiculous notion that cause it's a TV series and we don't have to know all the information, but it uses 'Real World' situations/information to shortcut their way through world building... meaning that if someone with a High bounty wanted alert is the hero, having them just suddenly appear to have traveled several countries, check points, Legal institutes all looking for them and it being a gloss over of 'Was hard to get here without being caught' it's a Plot hole since not even Low level criminals now a days can cross borders without being noticed by 'Something' within 24 hours in Many instances.... let alone something as high regarding a murdered officer in a lot of these series.
28:34 Well they have some duty to adhere to some elements of history, otherwise they've moved out of historical fiction and just become fiction, right?
38:36 Okay. He repeated his garbage point. Now I'm getting pissed off at him.
Literally yes. There is a good example of a contrivance or plot hole in a manhwa I like where the MC goes on a wild goose chase. The plot point does absolutely nothing for anyone and only serves to make the story worse. Removing it would absolutely and unquestionably make the story better.
If you can't figure out how to make your story happen without resorting to ridiculous contrivance, or worse yet actual plot holes, you suck at writing. A lot of story issues would be solved with a simple redraft. You as the writer have the power: You can make things happen retroactively.
There's several layers of problems with the story arc, but focusing on the particularly redundant part: MC is dying from fantasy cancer. He buys information from a merchant that essentially tells him that he can be healed by a person in the city is headed towards. He is dying rapidly and needs to search an entire city based on a name. He doesn't need a name, because he literally bumps into someone he knows who leads him to a person who can heal him.
There was no reason for him to make the trade, because the information (which he realistically should know already) is useless to him. The plot didn't benefit from the trade since he never needed that information in the first place. All he needed to do was to do what he would've naturally done anyways.
34:54 If it was a masterpiece it would be something else.
Also the MC dont need to pull his sword Rags, because he is so OP no one stands a chance against him Rags.
He can literally just stand there while people attack him, because his lvl is so high.
Part of why its so boring, is because of this little Mary-sue.
Plot holes are 100% avoidable, it's not like what the writer writes is chiselled in rock. It can be rewritten, world rules can be adjusted, character motives, behaviours and so on changed. Contrivances are often a part of a story and depends on your tolerance as well a good contrivance can be overlooked with yeh I guess no one could do, attempt or think of this or they got lucky. Ya know like the most common contrivance is the lucky bounce where that knife falls right next to characters hand and allows them to win. In a good story that can overlooked but if it was say a knife that can cut through flesh like butter but suddenly it just loses that ability for this entire fight than yeh it's like WTF why did you write it like that? You could have introduced a material early that resisted it OR done something like a power source? Some magical stun effect? Anything.
@MajorSmurf Having hung around a lot of different writing circles( I’m writing a book right now), a lot of this mentality of plot holes and rules may come from two factors. One is that writers don’t want to feel shackled and want to do whatever they want. And on one hand, I see where they are coming from. We are creating fictional worlds and characters and thus it’s a part of who we are. But at the same time, having a strong internal logic actually makes you a better creative. When you impose rules on your world or story, it forces you to be more creative. You want a character to be wounded and survive? Fine. Make it make sense. Frodo surviving the cave troll spear for example with mithril vest.
Spielberg with Jaws made a better film with the shark puppet not working well in the water.
The second reason I believe there is pushback is validation. This will be harsh but I find a lot of writers want validation for the stuff they’ve written. More specifically the fact that they’ve written something.
While I won’t trounce on a writer for finishing a script or manuscript( writing is hard and half the battle is finishing), I find this to be a toxic mindset because you aren’t entitled to an audience.
Customers have every right to point out what’s wrong or good with your work. Suspend one’s pride and actually go through your work, questioning your choices. Get a pair of eyes who is objective and look through your work and redraft. You won’t catch every problem but it really shows when you put the time and care into your work.
@@Avarn388 Yeh totally agree with all of that. One of the things I think with film/game writers that makes them different to say even novice book writers is the need to feel different, or being overly ambitious because they're being paid. So they hate the obvious answer that the story or overall narrative is clearly pointing to or they end up adding too many pieces, some super CG fight that blows away people, or a clashing narrative point that doesn't mesh well with the rest and that's when it becomes a mess. It's one of the things that most book writers will know and avoid because generally speaking book writers are doing it more as a hobby before it being a full time job, whereas film/game writers might feel that they need to make this a masterpiece or trying more wacky things. The idea that you story needs to be the next masterpiece of storytelling that did something truly unique or different is often bad. Not saying it's always like that but there is a reason say revenge stories end with the target of MC dying in some satisfying way.
Can you clip teal deer falling over and dying on efap, please?
‘Plot holes don’t matter!’
Then my criticism isn’t a plot hole that matters
Foe, the clone of Poe
What's up with the SpongeBob music? xD
Oh I remember this video 😬
This person has the intellect of a 12 year old. Wow.
I really miss GDELB.
Ok I really do like most of SAO, but obviously it would be better, looking back on it, if it was a masterpiece. It would just make it that much more enjoyable.
These are the same guys that defend thevbiggest plot hole in GOW ragnorok, kratos not dying with no explanation.
Can you explain what the plot hole is I've not heard of it before?
@@JumpierNewt8956 this primary source of tension for Ragnorok is "Kratos will die" foreshadowed heavily in the end of GOW 2018 then they doubled down on it ragnorok! Then for some reason he just....doesn't die and it's never properly explained.
I've never seen anything like that in a story in my life, the writers just said "nah he lives, make up your own reason why"
Quiero un Plot Hole en mi cabeza
Echo por todo el Sub Tex de que estoy cansado
i dont know why rags just winds me up. like bringing up " FUN FACT your making a video you are talking......yout music has lyrics. UHMMM ACHULLY you shouldnt do this because...... " like ok bro, that adds nothing and derails, then bro uses a tiny tangent to pull focus back to him and to brag about owning a bunch of guns that he shoots. and how guns are hard. no shitt. dude is that redditor "its Frankenstein's MONSTER, Frankenstein was the doctor!! " i wish someone would tell him to stop derailing. hes a walking minfield on ruining the flow
he might be a nice guy but he needs to learn that he doesnt need to prove hes smart or that hes cool. sometimes saying nothing is the smartest move. so rags, i know im being mean but you need to chill mate
war is a battle of two clashing beliefs or wills.... so the fact that if everyone is logical then there is no conflict is so dumb of a take personally. people can logically deduce problems but not everyone will get to the same answer to a problem or said problem will be different from person to person
That is absolutely not what war is. War is an armed conflict between the armed forces of states. Arguing on the internet about a children's movie is not war. What an embarrassing take lol, i stopped reading after that.
Everything of what this guy, and others like him, are saying has been said before, but of art forms other than storytelling. Everything that feminist/woke film makers are doing has been done before to art forms other than storytelling. It's all the same playbook. They aren't trying to subvert expectations as much as the art form, itself. It's all about demoralization. The lack of beauty has a negative psychological impact on people, that's the end goal. However, they can't do it to storytelling because it, as an art form, can't be further reduced. Storytelling can't exist seperately from communicating ideas. A painting doesn't need logic, but every story does because, without that, it becomes less identifiable as a story. So, they're forced to present their bad ideas, which breakdown the logic of the story.
8:31 I don’t know my guy, you show yourself to be pretty dumb in this vid, I don’t know if ready player one could match that.
21:00
40:00
The first shall be last
Stop talking about plot holes, its just an argument about space-women intended for massives - Bulbous Teabag
"I guess I made his point before he said it"
Yeah, that is kind of the problem with pausing at every frame. You argue against what you assume someone is saying before you even let them finish a sentence.
Now imagine that 9/10 people Efap argues with are interchangeable spectrum dwellers with near-identical axes to grind.
This doesn't matter at all if they eventually get to the corrections or clarifications and respond appropriately.
@ If they waited for someone to finish their point before responding there wouldn't need to be corrections.
@dkirby9052 Try hearing out *every* unwashed Fentaghoul you cross paths with for 1~ month, then tell me how eager you are to let them finish reciting their specific version of the homeless prayer.
@ No method of responding live is going to be without flaw. I think the way they do it is about as good as it ever gets.
A later clarification could come at any point in a video being responded to, and short of watching the entire thing in silence while taking notes and then responding to everything all at once point by point, there's no way to account for that (never mind the completely valid copyright strikes you'd get hit with doing this).
What's your suggestion for a better method than pausing when you _think_ a complete point has been made, responding to that, then continuing the video and making corrections when necessary (not often)?
Very few know this but hes right
eeeh your guesses statement here kinda lose some strength with me with how you all handled arcane season 2. it was a shitshow of a review full of just weird bias. ya treated a eight out of ten series like it was 5 out of ten and its pretty ridiculous the lengths you went to construe everything as bad.
feel like you guys are so used to seeing trash that you overrected to a drop in quality and cohesion. though part of me wonders if it was deliberate chaos.
worst was the......... seriously that flashback scene solidified characters not ruiend em. vander literally also adopted two boys if you remember. Buyt it also full contextualized silco and his contrast between vander.
vander was the heart and compassion, desiring all being well for his peeps. But he lacked the vision and forethought, and that is why he was ultimately betrayed cause for as much as they loved him, he was keeping them under the heel of piltover. and a compassionate heart can become a violent heart. wise men fear the anger of a patient man.
Silco has all the vision and ambition and has good intentions, but he isn't as moral and compassionate as Vander. I imagine that vi's mom's death was in part his fault, he pushed something too far, and vander tried to kill him in vengeance. Silco thus abandoned the morality and compassion complately to try and get what he felt was necessary and fufill his ambitions. He likely presumed the worse of Vander and that he'd turn his friends kids against him, unknowing that he basically didn't tell him about silco at all let alone turn em against him.
he adopted powder cause he raeilzed that vander did not turn powder against him. that commpassion awoke, if but a small spark, and took her in.
Vander and silco balance each other out.
Arcane season 2 is cringe. I could not finish it. I wouldn't really call it a bias.
All Holes Matter
@@tailfin6595
That's a lie. A hole's value is dependent on being filled. An open hole has no value.
@@ephraimwinslowLao Tszu would like a word with you.
Its nice to see Cynical Reviews when he was more tempered with his political autism.
The Count of Monte Cristo, (THE BOOK!!) Has to be one of the greater books I've ever read. It is TIGHT TIGHT, eloquently verbalized, genuinely, I can find only ONE plot hole, but it isn't even worth mentioning since the time frame and the town the story takes place in, as well as how SMALL the population was in the boatport town. It isnt a droll, diatribe of DRAGGED ON METAPHORS; Such as Blood Meridian. That book is pointlessly contrived. While people LOVE the insane amount of plot holes ENFORCED for, *"Metaphorical Rhetoric."*
The frustrating truth is? Everyone has the same definition of genius:
"Someone who thinks like me, but moreso."
And in the era of brainrot where the odds of serious 'tism are about 1/10 (and CLIMBING)?
...Yeah. Yeah. Just... yeah. I don't wanna elaborate further, 'cuz it makes me sad. :(
18:30 WHAT!?? Mof got this backasswards, paying enough attention to a story to remember/figure out where it dose or doesn't makes sense IS WHEN YOU ARE ENGAGED not when you mindlessly nodding along to something your not remembering what's going on
He's luck efap wont easy on his mentally inert ass holly heck