Repertoire: The BEST Tchaikovsky "Manfred" Symphony
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- Опубликовано: 1 июн 2020
- Why have so few conductors gotten this symphony right? It's a mystery, but even if we can't solve it, we can talk about the few versions that do Tchaiikovsky's magnificent music full justice.
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Thanks for taking this fabulous piece seriously! I love it to distraction. I currently have about 20 recordings of it.
The Manfred is my favorite Tchaikovsky symphony (or "symphony", or whatever). I was glad to year you mention the incredibly beautiful middle theme from the Scherzo. As for Previn, I don't know if it's the same recording, but in Ken Russell's film (sort of) about Tchaikovsky, "The Music Lovers" we hear an bit of the First Movement and it's, like, wow!
Hi Dave! I first heard a bit of Manfred back in the summer of 1971 when I attended the movie The Music Lovers, an eccentric film about Tchaikovsky by Ken Russel (yeah, the same guy who tackled Mahler's story years later). I recall it to be a turbulent scene with Richard Chamberlain as Tchaikovsky experiencing some traumatic event (what else is new?) with Manfred filling in the soundtrack. Anywho, I love the symphony and thank you for recommending a credible recording with teeth and conviction!
Some good recommendations there David! Nice to see that the Philharmonia feature in the top spots. Maazel's Tchaikovsky Symphony cycle with the Vienna Phil is hard to beat also. Muti's recording really is very good. As is Ashkenazy's.
Great to see one of Silvestri's recordings featured, in some ways I think his Bournemouth version is better but the mighty Paris organ makes the French recording a winner. The Bournemouth version is coupled with a tremendous Pines of Rome though. A video dedicated to Silvestri's ICON box set would be most welcome, his recordings are a joy.
Regarding Manfred, also I think worth mentioning are:
Litton/Bournemouth SO - part of his Tchaikovsky cycle
Ahronovitch/LSO - terrific playing and some wonderful pauses during the Astarte theme in the finale
Jansons/Oslo PO - part of his acclaimed Tchaikovsky cycle
And another new one to recommend alongside Jurowski and his excellent Manfred (and cycle):
Petrenko/RLPO
I would love to talk shop with you about classical music. You should make a chat room !
Thanks for articulating!
Yeah, I think you are just right on about Jurowski. I love this Manfred and I think his entire cycle with the LPO is stunning.
I've loved the Silvestri performance for quite some time, and I've recently been enjoying Ormandy from the RCA Tchaikovsky box that has the performance of the 4th Symphony that you recommended.
The only version I own and which, incidentally, I listened to during confinement was also with the London Philharmonic, but under Rostropovich (EMI).
Where have you been all my life? you remind me of myself!!! I have been in the mood for Manfred. My own recording is on vinyl ( on DG and I don't remember the conductor) so I have been looking for a replacement. I will definitely take your recommendations to heart.
The Svetlanov 67 recording is complete and pretty good. The cuts in the 90s recording are absolutely infuriating as it was such a good performance up to that point. I saw Manfred live with the City of Birmingham Symphony last year and it truly is spectacular. You could sense a few people starting to yawn and fidget before getting their head blown off by the organ.
@Kanishk Nishar It was Kazuki Yamada. I've liked his performances both times I saw him at Birmingham.
I have to agree Svetlanov still does it for me.
@@rsmickeymooproductions4877 That's the greatest performance ever!
I've never understood why this piece is so maligned. When I moved to Chicago, my very first concert with one of the local suburban orchestras was a performance of Manfred. I'd not come across it up to that point, and fell in love with it (as often happens when you get to play a piece and experience its inner workings!). Thanks for your insight!
Thanks so much for the recommendations. I gave Jurowski and the LPO a try on a streaming service and whilst it was a great performance, in the "fff" sections the sound was clipped and distorted. I tried a few other recordings of Manfred to make sure it wasn't just the quality of the streaming and whilst these were doubtlessly inferior to the CDs they did not seem to have the clipping effect. Just wondering if the LPO production has fallen victim to the loudness wars, for people listening on crappy radios or in the car. I will get the CD because, as you say, it's an exciting performance. (I don't think you mentioned Chailly with the Concertgebouw, which I like but I assume you don't! His performance with Lucerne on Blu Ray seems rather good to me too).
I'm in love head over heels with Vassily Petrenko's interpretation, also with Yuri Ahronovich - I don't know if it was ever on records or CD, or only on radio. Ahronovich milks every drop of agony out of every dissonance. The music of Astarte in the first and last movements is the saddest and most tender music I have ever heard! As for Manfred's theme, which you don't like - I identify myself with it completely, so I guess we wouldn't get along.
After many years of mulling it over, I have finally come to the conclusion that the first movement of "Manfred" is in a very experimental sonata form: first comes the exposition of the "Manfred" theme, which is then developed. After the exposition of the "Astarte" melody, it, too, is developed. And of course, "Manfred" is the apocalyptic coda! Viewed this way, the first movement is actually bracingly brief!
Wow! I've got the Jurowski's...is really wonderful. I like much also Muti in the Manfred...what do you think about Chailly / Congertgebouw and Philharmonia / Kletzki recordings? I enjoyed them greatly! As well as a live recording with Rico Saccani and Budapest Philharmonic, where there are Tam-Tam crashes :)
Don't much care for Chailly or Kletzki (but he's better than Chailly).
Have loved this work, trash or not, since my first recording in the early 50s: Toscanini’s. The motto theme is so appropriate, full of meaning. As Mr Obsessive, here my current recordings: Bournemouth SO,C.Silvestri
Concertbebouw O,R.Chailly
FRNO,C.Silvestri
Gurzenich-Orchester Koln,K.Kitajenko
LPO,M.Rostropovich
LPO,V.Jurowski
LSO,A.Previn
LSO,E.Goossens
Olso PO,M.Jansons
Philadelphia O,E.Ormandy
Philharmonia O,P.Kletzki
Philharmonia O,R.Muti
Philharmonia O,V.Ashkenazy
Russian National O,M.Pletnev
USSR SO,E.Svetlanov
Utah SO,M.Abravanel
Wow! Impressive.
Thank you for your extraordinary review; I am falling in love with this Symphony and my modest recommendation is to ask you if you have heard the version of Mariss Jansons (Conductor), Oslo Philharmonic Orchestra (Orchestra), and also one of my favorite, love it Mikhail Pletnev with Russian National Orchestra; those two so far for me the best; I would like to read your opinion. Best regards
Jansons is good, not great, but Pletnev I find very dull. You know what my recommendations are if you have seen the video. Try one of those, if you can, and compare with the versions your prefer to see if you agree or not.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Thank you Mr. Hurwitz for your kindness in answer my comment. I will, for sure; I already order some of your recommendations. We will continue our conversations. Thank you
I ended up getting the Muti version. Lucky coincidence.
The Jurowski is my numero uno pick as well. Silverstri is great too.
Hi David, I was wondering if you have heard any of the recent Alexander Sladkovsky/Tatarstan National Symphony performances? Their Tchaikovsky 2020 box has absolutely blown me away, as has their 2021 Rachmaninov set.
Yes. I may talk about it.
And what about Silvestri's Philharmonia (he also did nos 4, 5 and 6 with them) - and a forgotten one on onetime Everest - Goossens with the LSO. Any comments on these? Thank you David!
Sure. Let's stay on topic! This was about Manfred. I don't mind talking about other stuff, but it kind of gets away from us. We can talk about Silvestri in due course (I have done, elsewhere, already). Goossens is nothing special.
Never thought I'd encounter anyone else who can make the connection between the BBC Anna Karenina and Manfred. And you're right. It works perfectly with that production. Have you ever heard Goossens and the LSO on Everest? It's the only version I have but thanks to this video, I will seek out Jurowski.
The Jurowski is my numero uno pick as well.
You should talk about the Hamlet overture. I don't know if you particularly like it or not, but I am interested to hear your opinions.
I do like it.
No mention of the absolutely fantastic Petrenko RLPO performance! The Proms performance was electric!
That's because it's not fantastic.
@@DavesClassicalGuide oh come on! Maybe you did not experience the wonderful performances live! I've had the pleasure of attending many performances by this conductor and orchestra in Liverpool and Preston. Their performance of this symphony was truly awe-inspiring. I think you need to take your blinkers off and listen!!!!!!!
@@davidforbes2557 I am glad you loved hearing the performance live. I cannot challenge your view of it. I wasn't there. But anyone can hear that recording and conclude that it is not one of the best--and mind you, I heard it when it came out and thought it was very good. It just isn't great as a recording. I was a bit disappointed, because I expected better. Perhaps it is you, fresh with the experience of the live concert in your ears, who needs to do some careful, comparative listening. Here is the ClassicsToday.com review, with which I full agree: www.classicstoday.com/review/review-14676/?search=1
@@DavesClassicalGuide I actually enjoy your strongly expressed opinions about recordings even when I disagree. It is the nature of great music that it provokes such a response! Keep it up and I reserve the right to sometimes strongly disagree!!
you can listen mutch time the theme of ''manfred'' in the movie of ken russell ''music lovers'' ( 1970)...( '' la symphonie pathétique'' in french)...movie on the life of tchaikovsky with richard chamberlan .....the music of this movie is conducting by andre previn with the lso...and rafael orozco for the second movement of the first piano concerto
Do you have a recommendations for the Francesca da Rimini overture?
Please see reviews at ClassicsToday.com for some ideas.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Thanks 👍
I saw Jurowski conduct it with the Philadelphia Orchestra and did not like it all. I have the Naxos recording with Vasily Petrenko and the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic and really like it. I find it exciting for both the performance and sound.
True. In my opinion Petrenko is better than Jurowski`s recording.
One of the best covers (to my liking and not named) is by Michael Tilson Thomas, LSO, CBS.
I second the Jurowski "Manfred". His finale to Tchaik. 5 is a smoker - like barely over 11 minutes!
Bout the repeat of the coda first movement in the finale: I always find it revealing when musicians claim to "work for the legacy of the composer" ... until it suits them not to. Normally I don't mind a little idiosyncracy, but Manfred is by far my favorite Tchaikovsky.
BTW, the Ashkenazy (and Jurowski) is on Spotify.
Thanks David for your fine eminent review. I think the Manfred Symphony is a very interesting and underestimated piece. My recording is Jansons with Oslo. Not bad at all. But I will pick up Silvestre and Jurowski, 🥁
Didn’t Markevitch use a Harmonium on his Philips recording?
It sounds like the organ or harmonium part is just missing, you just hear the winds.
La parte que interpreta el órgano es doblada por la orquesta en la partitura. En ese sentido el órgano solo añade su timbre especial. Seguramente Tchaikovsky lo escribió así para que se pudiera interpretar la obra sin un organo y sin un harmonium.
The part played by the organ is dubbed by the orchestra in the score. In that sense, the organ only adds its special timbre. Surely Tchaikovsky wrote it that way so that the work could be performed without an organ and without a harmonium.
As you always say, it is a matter of taste, but I thought some of Jurowksi's tempi were a little slow.
You'll get used to it.
Not sure I need another Manfred -happy with Pletnev (RNO)and Chailly (Concertgebouw)
Chailly is in my playlist too.
You should be a comedian lmao the way you describe them are so funny
Is Jurowski a live performance? If so how are the sonics and is there any background noise?
Check out the review at classicstoday.com.
Are you sure that the initial theme is the theme for the Manfred character himself? I had assumed that the first movement followed the first part of the poem itself. Manfred uses his magic to conjure up a bunch of super-powerful Earth spirits, and they spend the first few pages talking about what powers each one has, and demanding to know what arrogant human has summoned them. Manfred himself doesn't even start talking until after several pages. I had assumed that we were hearing powerful, other-worldly music that represented these magical spirits during the first half of the first movement.
Nope. I'm sure.
Heartening to hear that I am not alone in wanting Tchaikovsky's music written as he wrote it. Has any other major composer ever been so disrespected? I'm glad every recording I own uses an organ, not a harmonium, but in concert halls where there was no organ, and before electronic ones were around, the work could at least be performed. Silvestri in Bournemouth used was is clearly and electronic organ and it sounds awful.
My favourite symphony. David Hurwitz is brilliant, insightful and enthusiastic. If anything, I'm even more enthusiastic. I don't think the main theme is unattractive, I find it powerful, for instance. And I don't think the first movement is episodic, to me it's like a single block of granite. He's dead right though about the need to only consider the real version with the organ at the end: It's a crime against music to mutilate the finale and substitute the end of the first movement. And it has to be a mighty organ, not a weedy harmonium. Semyon Bychkov, uses the latter because he thinks the organ entry can make you wince. I think this is Tchaik's greatest moment, if it makes you wince, don't touch Tchaikovsky, because you don't understand it.
I want more performance art.
What do you think of Jurowski's cycle as a whole?
Wonderful.
Sorry Dave but its Markevitch for me. The power uleashed in the culmination of the first movement is awesome and the whole hangs together with total conviction. The final movement does not have a powerful organ I accept but is perfectly acceptable. Timpanist on this recording does a tremendous job. No need for a back up but Nelsons is a great runner up.if up to the minute sonics imperative.Great tmps here too.
No need to apologize for liking Markevitch in anything!
Miles after you did this and I really like your review and Jurowsi’s recording. Just wanted to say that despite the fact I like the music, even at Jurowski’s pace this is a pretty unconvincing Bacchanal. There’s really no sense of sexual danger at all and in this best current presentation this must be Tchaikovsky’s fault, not the various interpreters.
I mean come on, Wagner, Berlioz, Liszt, Saint-Saens, Mussorgsky etc we could go on. It’s pleasing enough music but the finale does mainly fail in its task. As does the finale of the 5th Symphony I have to say. Sometimes Tchaikovsky really did know that he couldn’t deliver what he felt he was supposed to.
Markevitch is my favourite Manfred. Disappointing not seeing it being mentioned.
It disappointed me too, and I love his Tchaikovsky.
Manfred is Romanticism on steroids. It's all out, balls on the floor, emotional gush. Yes, most performances suck as they don't approach it as such. I'll take the added tam-tam any day, I'm no puckered-ass purist, to get to Toscanini's intensity. The rest seem like castrated schoolboys, including Jurowski. Toscanini is how it goes. You sing like a percussionist.
Manfred is a symphonic poem in four movements, not a 'symphony' in the traditional sense.
Don't be ridiculous. Put a lid on the pedantry.
Harmonium is a joke everywhere except Dvorak's Bagatelles.
In that work, it's a wheezy but funky and endearing superstar.