Rather than having one person deliver it directly from Arnor to Mordor, it would make more sense to send it in stages, say to Gondor where it's handed off to someone who knows more but it fresher, or with more steps in between. Say send one rider with the box & several riders with letters explaining the box & the plan to arrive before it. No one would actually need to know that they were going to the crack of Doom until say Minas Ithil, and then you're already on the border of Mordor.
I do think the "messenger" would be affected by the ring in a Pandora's box type idea. He would be aware of something inside and curiosity would start gnawing on him to figure out what it is, and that would be the rings opening.
Concerning the whole box thing, anyone charged with that mission would, as you point out, naturally be curious about what is inside the said box, being at least aware there's something mildly special in there, and I think maybe that's in itself something the Ring could play on to use its influence on the envoy. Maybe you should use some kind of relay team to limit that lol.
I feel that it was impossible for Isildur to give up the ring. The nature of the ring is temptation.For Tolkien, his religious view, which I do not share but do respect, meant that only through the intercession of god was it possible to achieve moral victory. This view is reflected by the impossibility for both Frodo and Isildur, to destroy the ring. Bilbo managed to give it up, I feel he never could have destroyed it. Thanks and keep up the good work.
The Wise don't even dare to take the ring, knowing how hard giving it up would be (given the amount of power they would get). In that sense, simple, honest folk are ideal for the job. Truth is we don't get that much info about Isildur... but being a proud king from a fallen people, angry from what he lost at battle, and in need of power... well I think he wouldn't give it up.
Old comment I know, but I wouldn’t necessarily say Isildur was in need of power. He gave up the rule of Gondor to his nephew even though it was his right to become the High King and rule both kingdoms.
Frodo also lived with Bilbo for decades without being corrupted by the Ring or desiring it. One thing that doesn't seem to be covered here - what if Isildur decided to wield the full power of the Ring himself? He was arguably one of the greatest of all Numenoreans, could he have bent it to his will, commanded the Wraiths etc? Obviously he would've been corrupted, but would he necessarily have faded like those that became the Nazgul did?
Mortals can never handle the power and evil of the Ring, nor can they ever bend it to their will. On the contrary, they are the most susceptible to its influence.
@@Enerdhil I hold that the "Mouth of Sauron" was selected to be Sauron's ring bearer, to hold the ring and become the seed from which Sauron would again become corporal.
One important thing to note is Isildur did not give up the ring or lose in battle or simple lost it. It abandoned him. It also abandoned him in a large river that flowed to the sea. That seems like a good way to be lost forever. I don’t ascribe foreknowledge to the ring even if it could seemingly have a mind of its own. What I do know is the rings very existence gave Sauron some power even if it was at the bottom of the sea and that it did have a mind of its own that was inline with its creator. I think it abandoned him to aid Sauron. A corrupted Isildur would be a grave threat to the dark lord. It might have known it’s master would take thousands of years to return and it would be better to roll to the sea then let a tyrant conquer the world. Deagal (sp?), you forgot he bore the ring for a very short time, finding it was an act of Iluvatar as was it abandoning Gollum and Bilbo finding it. In any case I think the rings only deliberate action was to abandon Isildur. Deagal and Bilbo finding it were either luck or divine intervention. Remember, the ring only needed to exist for Sauron to ultimately succeed. What better place then buried in a river. It would also keep someone powerful from finding it by simply hearing of a hobbit with a magic ring. Or perhaps it was simply the matter of power. Gollum and Bilbo and Frodo could never be a threat to Sauron where Isildur could. This theory has holes, like why did it not abandon Gollum after he claimed it and that the books might say it abandoned him in the goblin caves (if the hiding rather then the relative power of the wielder is the argument with merit), but it might explain why it abandoned Isildur but not Bilbo and Frodo if not Gollum as well.
I think one more thing that would help Isildur with giving it up is that in Rivendell he would be far away from Mount Doom. I'd also think that trying to figure out a way to destroy the Ring would be a lot easier at a time like this when they could actually just walk into Mordor.
That is true. A cake walk into Mordor. Even the Nazgul are nowhere to be found. Still, the problem is what Tolkien said about destroying the Ring. It might turn out that the Nazgul are all holed up in Sammath Naur. 😆🤣😂🤣😆
I agree that the second scenario outlined here is the most likely one. Over time, it would have ended utterly badly, with the Ring either being eventually seized by a would-be Ringlord with sufficient innate power, added to that conferred by the Ring, to resist all opposition and become a new Dark Lord, or finding its way back to Sauron. All things considered, Isildur losing the Ring in Anduin was the best thing that could have happened under the circumstances.
You'd also need a very substantial army to accopany the messenger to Mordor,as In Unfinished Tales It mentioned that the Orcs could feel the presence of the Ring,as it had only just been removed from Sauron's Hand.
Just a random point, as I'm in no way, shape or form, an expert in LOTR. I just read the 3 big ones, before the PJ's trilogy even came out. Just wanted to raise an idea regarding Bilbo/Frodo/Sam as Unique ring bearers. In tabletop RPG, halflings are generally good, kind, loving, carefree people. All three of them fit the bill. That's essentially how I saw hobbits whenever I read the books. So they're basically the perfect counter to the One's influence over the mind, although not immune. If you look at it, and add the fact Bilbo got it through an act of mercy, essentially giving himself another protective layer, it would strenghten the case that only Bilbo would ever be capable of giving the Ring up. The Mercy thing itself would mean the Ring had nothing clear to latch onto and potentialize, as Bilbo had no regrets about the whole adventure. Thus the only thing the Ring could influence was .... ownership? Possession? (in both Frodo and Bilbo) While Sméagol, was more easily corrupted, since by murdering for it, gave the One something to latch on. Men are portrayed far more on the gray scale, regarding morals and actions (even Aragorn only pursuing the Crown for Arwen, for example), thus no Men would ever be as "protected" as, say, Bilbo / Frodo / Sam, as the One would always have something to latch onto. Grief, love, ambition, rage, regret.... no matter how "pure" the Men in question.
17:01 A certain reminiscence of a certain godmother of a certain Andrew Ketterley comes to mind "no, I won't open the box, yes, I'll just burn it in fire ..." "I did not keep that promise"
I'm with you that I don't think Isildur can directly give up the Ring. Let' say Isildur and his party are an escort fit for the King of the United Kingdoms of the Dunedain in Exile and give the orcs a beatdown. As the wounded are tended and the bodies are buried, Isildur has his moment of clarity. One (The One) would have to consider if he is a useful Ringbearer or not. The further away from Mordor the easier it will be to manage the Ring. If Isildur and Co. stop over in Rivendell before Isildur assumes his father's throne, I think he has a good chance to be parted from the Ring. He would never be able to give the One Ring to someone else, but he might be convinced to leave it on that table over there and go have an ale with Glorfindel and talk about evil Maia slaying. They have a few rounds. Glorfindel sings some songs, and Isildur starts thinking about his wife and his boy. Glorfindel reminds him he has a kingdom to run. By the third round, the Ring has been placed in a small silver cylinder filled with water and then welded shut by a jewel smith. That gets put in your lockbox Couriers often get orders to deliver unopened parcels so this one shouldn't be any different except for the company of elven heroes that accompany him to Mordor. If Isildur does not rid himself of the Ring before he takes up the crown of Arnor; he will never be rid of it. Kings make it all too easy (Vader voice) for the Ring's corruption to work on the bearer. Councils would be so much more productive if all your Lords agreed with you. If only everyone else could sing harmony to your melody what a wonderful Arnor we could make together. You did defeat Sauron. These people are all your subjects. They OWE you allegiance. Game over. Like his master before him, even when he looses, Sauron wins.
You made a good video. With many good points. I think the first option is more likely. The reason why is I think Isildur might have been motivated by the idea of justice. I am aware as a Christian, Tolkien values mercy over justice but justice can be a good thing. I mean it is a noble thing to avenge the death of a family member against an evil dark lord, which has been common for various heroic fantasy stories. But I do agree with your remark how Isildur would need help. I believe Elrond might need to call for assistance from at least one other bearer of an Elven Ring of Power or maybe all three. But I believe Isildur would be able to give up the One Ring. The reason why I think so has to do with the fact Isildur resisted Sauron before when Sauron was stronger. As a result, I believe he can do so again.
You should also mention that Isildur was one of the Faithful, being totally dedicated to Eru Iluvatar. Eru could give him the strength he needs to complete the task, but then Tolkien himself was very clear that NO ONE could have destroyed the Ring, so this what-if was going to end in same way as the typical what-if scenarios all seem to do.🙄
@@Enerdhil True. I think it would have to be a group effort for Isildur to destroy the ring. I guess I should have mentioned he was one of the Faithful. However this is Tolkien and he had a soft spot for the hobbits because they reminded him of the ideal life he once had.
I have questions about how much 'the Good Guys' knew about the power of the One Ring and when did they learn it. Obviously, the Elves immediately sensed the threat of being dominated by Sauron so they took their rings off but did they come up with an enumerated list of Powers of Sauron's Ring and how could they even investigate such things, especially in the middle of a war? In the immediate aftermath of Sauron's defeat and Isildur taking the Ring did they understand just how much of Sauron's puissance was now in the Ring? When did they learn, and how, that the Ring could only be unmade in the place it was forged (something clearly not true for the other 19 rings). Did the Istari bring word with them from the West that 'Sauron isn't completely gone yet'? Intuiting the corrupting influence of Ring I can I see but what about the other powers such as life extension, or did that have to be learned by interrogating Gollum?
2:05 I always bring this up whenever I have a conversation (irl or online) about Gollum but your the first RUclipsr I've heard bring it up lol Sméagol was a bad person. He killed his cousin/bestfriend no less for The Ring without even knowing it was magical within moments of laying eyes it, yes there was a subtle negative effect emanating from it but that is no excuse. Bilbo in a similar circumstance, had The Ring for hours, knew it was magic and had much more justification to kill Gollum than Sméagol did Deagol, yet he spared him. A lot of people feel sorry Gollum and fair enough because The Ring ruined his life but he was certainly no saint unlike Bilbo. Concerning Isildur to be fair, I think he fared much better with The Ring than most humans would. He could recognize it's negative influence on him (something even Frodo denied, though he did technically posses it for much longer) and resolved to take it to Rivendell to be destroyed. I think had he made it there he it is likely he'd ultimately decide to keep it and all manner of things could've occurred because of that, but of all humans we know of he's one of the more resistant to evil.
We have to believe that, had Isildur survived the Gladden disaster, he would be racked with terrible grief and guilt over the deaths of his 3 sons. Overwhelmed. With such a loss I don’t see how he would be in his right mind, even without the Ring. I just think he would be broken by that loss, and prone to give in to the Ring’s malicious all the easier.
I see any comments claiming that Isildur would never have been able to relinquish the ring due to it's corrupting nature. I recommend this video from In Deep Geek which give some interesting insight regarding Isildur's character and his relation to the ring. ruclips.net/video/SSErzSst1R4/видео.html&ab_channel=InDeepGeek
Any ideas on what we should make of Gollum’s self deception of the ring being his birthday present contrasted against it literally being Frodo’s birthday present?
I don’t think it would have been absolutely impossible for Isildur to do it. But really unlikely. Both Gandalf and Galadriel tell us straight up that they would be destroyed, they would lose their internal battle against the ring. I think that is because the ring is a power multiplier. High level characters get a larger boost to their stats and abilities, but that also gives the ring more power over them. I actually really like how PJ handles this. Gandalf has convinced Bilbo to give it up, but in the process he has seen some things in Bilbo that really worries him. He bends down to pick it up and start investigate, but gets a strong flash of evil Sauron vibes and redraws his hand. When Frodo shows up the ring is lying in the exact same place. And after Frodo picks it up, Gandalf makes him put the ring in an envelope and he still makes absolutely sure not to touch the ring himself. I have a friend who made the joke that the ring is radio active and instead of lead lined gloves and tongs, Gandalf is kinda holding Bilbo by the legs and using him to handle the damned thing. So anyway, I agree that the most likely outcome is that Isildur keeps the ring against his better judgement. He thinks intellectually that he should give it up or destroy it, but he can’t bring himself to. After a while he starts to deteriorate morally, in ways that both his subjects and allies notice. They have a problem with Isildur, but even that thought puts them in conflict with him. It’s actually not paranoia if your friends and subjects really are out to get your ring, is it? So I see an increasingly powerful but also increasingly bitter, lonely, paranoid and tyrannical king on the throne, and a huge civil war down the pike. I see a bad moon rising, is what I’m saying. And Sauron is still coming back when he can reassemble some kind of physical form. Which may be sooner in this reality. So that’s my best guess what would have happened.
I do think tensions with the elves are the biggest thing to note here, I'm not sure if the friendship would turn to outright hostility. They can certainly aid him in doing it voluntarily, but the problem is of course is Isildur is a king, and forcing him to do it involuntarily doesn't seem possible for his friends.
The audio quality is fine, but the volume is very low. I had to turn it up really high to hear what your were saying, and then a commercial came and almost blasted my eardrums.
Isildur might have had the best intentions when he started out on his fateful journey, but would probably not have held out very long against the ring in his possession. He really should have done as was suggested to him --- immediately throw it into the volcano. .....But then we wouldn't have such a story about its eventual disposal.
I would think he is willing to give it up enough to get to Mount Doom again, but ends up "doing a Gollum" and ends up in the lava with it. Whether he realizes that he can't escape the rings corruption and throws himself over in a last act of sacrifice or whether it plays out more like what actually happened in Return of the King, I do not know.
When I think about Isildur I remember Elron’’s word at his council “I advised him to throw it into the fire near at hand.” Why do you assume he was going to get Elrond’s advice, he already had it.
I thought examples like the orcs that shot Isildur and the Watcher in the Water would have been instances where beings were influenced solely by the Ring's proximity.
Not in a corruptive way. Maybe drawn to it (the Watcher) or had their perceptions influenced (orcs), but not in a way that would lead them to want to possess it.
Give the locked box with the Ring to a criminal convicted to a death sentence, have several people take him to the Cracks of Doom. Have him either throw the box and be pardoned or be thrown in with it!
Did Gollum knew about the full powers of the ring? The ring was found down in the river years later and Deagol never knew it was there. I think the ring captures u with it sight..They all gaze on it. The ring has it will of it own.
While I think you're critique of Isildur is correct, I can't help but lean more towards InDeepGeek's point of view, mainly because of how the character of Isildur affects his heirs. In the films, it's sort of a case of a New Adam type situation, yes I did make a Aragon to Christ connection, sorry but the third book is called "The Return Of The King" and to a Christian, Christ is King. While in the books, it hints to more Old Northern European Son-Of situation, going by the books Islidur is a Good man, and to be his heir is a sign that the potential of that same Goodness exists in you, which makes Aragon far more of an ideological threat to Mairon... yes I used his pre-falled, but the point stands
I think it's heavily implied though just being in proximity to the Ring corrupts you. True, the book doesn't say that but I mean...come on. Also, if I'm a soldier with a lockbox instructed not to open it. Nope, I wouldn't. Come on it's an order man just need a loyal soldier.
The Seven didnt effect the dwarves in the manner that the One or the Nine has been shown to effect Mannish beings. How would the One effect a dwarven bearer?
I think the same. The point of the lesser rings was to be a vehicle for domination, achieved by using the One. Dwarves were particularly resistant to such domination but not to corruption.
Even the dwarves, including Thorin, who was shown to suffer from greed, were unaffected by the ring when Bilbo had it. Unless the greed Thorin suffers is caused in part by the ring? 🤔
@@TolkienLorePodcast I've always thought "dragon sickness" was an interesting expression to use, but I don't think that Thorin was without need for the gold and other riches. Also I am sure he didn't know the exact value of all that was in Erebor. Another thing is that he was willing to share it with his Dwarves. All this makes me think "dragon sickness" is a strange choice of words, even though I find the expression quite cool😎
The wars of succession: Isildur keeps the ring and it becomes a symbol of rule like the iron throne. Middle earth devolves into internecine war for generations until it falls in the hands of Sauron. GRR Martin: get on it.
Also, i think it’s fair to say that the ring is an existential threat with or without Sauron. Even in the unlikely event that the ring doesn’t fall to Sauron after some backstabbing and civil war, the wars between elves and men would literally sunder the children of illuvatar. An irreparable break between the free peoples would be as good as a Sauron victory IMO
Was about to say the same thing. I think Sam hesitated a bit but that was it. Frodo certainly didn’t have to hold him at knife point or beat him up to get it.
What do you think the effect would be of the fact that nearly all his sons had sacrificed themselves to let him get away, for the express purpose of destroying the Ring.
I’m not sure that would have much impact. External influences like that don’t seem to play into it much. It’s more about the bearer’s own will to resist the Ring.
Maybe? It clearly can influence those who aren’t in possession of it but it seems weaker that way, so I think it would have to be with someone like Boromir who was already attracted to it.
This what-if scenario is not so far-fetched like most of them are. The odds of Isildur, his sons and entourage getting killed by a roving band of orcs has to be very, very low. I think it was likely an act of Iluvatar that caused those orcs to be out there in the first place. Isildur was never going to be able to hand his ring over to Elrond or anyone else. He was going to claim it and become another Witch King of Eriador. Tolkien was crystal clear about this issue of who could resist the ring or destroy it. NO ONE.
I disagree with the supposed "unlawfulness" of Isildur taking the Ring. After all he was the crown prince of a nation wronged by Sauron. The lives taken by Sauron directly and indirectly far outnumbered those taken by Sauron at the time of his (apparent) death. He had right to claim the Ring as spoils of war and as weregild, not only of his father, but also of countless subjects killed in the war.
3 Rings for the Elven Kings under the Sky 7 for the Dwarf Lords beneath their halls of Stone 9 for mortal men doomed to die This part of the poem or prophecy is very important to bring up here in regards to theory crafting for the ring. Remember that even though Sauron was defeated by Isildur "Physically". His intelligence, essence, spirit, and malice were still well and ticking in the ring that Isildur took and eventually kept. With that in mind, if Isildur did not die in the Gladden fields, the ring would still have corrupted his heart and soul to a point that he would no longer be recognized as Isildur. Why do I say this? Lets look at a couple of things. The first, is that in Middle Earth and with Sauron and the ring, men are easily corrupted. Sauron hated all men, but the numenoreans especially, for obvious reasons. When he created all of the rings in the second age, his intent was to rule over all of the races in Middle Earth. His intent for men was very clear from the beginning. We just need to look at the Nazgul for reference here. Now, I'm sure you are going to bring up Gollum, Bilbo, and Frodo. What makes them different from Isildur here, is that they are hobbits (or very closely related to hobbits in Gollum's case), not men. Why is that an important distinction you ask? Because Hobbits were not awakened in Arda, or fully around in Middle Earth until about the beginning of the 3rd age. If there were hobbits in the second age, I am fairly certain that Sauron would have made rings or tried to corrupt them as well. This is why (in my opinion), they did not wake until near or after Sauron's defeat in the 2nd age. When Gollum, Bilbo, and Frodo take the ring into their possession, of course the ring tries to corrupt them, does anything it can to return to its master. However, Hobbits are very different from, elves, dwarves, and men: The key difference here, is that hobbits have no ties or history with Sauron like the other races do. Now Gollum became corrupted pretty easily, because he was already malicious in his heart, before he even took the ring. This is evident, as he very quickly resorts to murdering his cousin Deagle for the ring. Bilbo was the thief, but he had no mal intent in his heart when he took the ring. Therefore, Bilbo had quite the resistance to its corruption in addition to being a hobbit. Frodo would ultimately become the ring's last bearer and would also be the least corruptible to the ring's power. Why? because Frodo never took the ring, stole the ring, or tried to get the ring in any malicious way. He literally receives it from Bilbo (with the help of Gandalf of course). We also know that Frodo had a very good heart. He was respected by all around him, and he always tried his best to do the right thing. However, even with Frodo, being as good as he was, still could not actually "throw" the ring into Mount Doom. This was by design, of course, because no one, other that the original owner (Sauron), or by some divine intervention, could the ring actually be destroyed. And, that is basically what happened. If Gollum was not there at that moment, and had he not bitten off Frodo's finger for the ring, do I think the ring would have been destroyed at all. So the way everything ends up playing out, and the events leading up to the ring's destruction had a specific design or plan in mind. I know this was a long response, but I just felt this was something left out in the discussions. I am just a nerd though, so don't mind me lol. Great stuff as always, and I love your channel.
Sauron would not have considered Hobbits dangerous enough to be a threat or helpful enough to be of use to him. Sauron would think it beneath him to make rings of power for them. Also the hobbits were relatively unknown by most for ages.
Also Sauron didn't make rings for every intelligent race. Only a select few. Ents, Eagles, and Beornings are all intelligent. So there is precedent for ignoring Hobbits. The main counterpoint to this argument would be the logistical problems of giving these races rings of power. Could an eagle even wear a ring? But this problem doesn't seem to effect the other two. So you must accept that not all races got rings of power.
Finally, Hobbits are as a general rule counted as an offshoot of men. So they are already included by extension. As a result of this I believe they share the fate of men when they perish. As opposed to the Elves tied to Arda or the Dwarves fates.
Also the shared history if Hobbits and Men is hinted at even in LotR when in the books Merry notes some linguistic similarities between the Hobbits and the Rohirrim.
interesting. What I mean is you missed one of the biggest points Tolkien made about the hobbits. You approached the issue much like the rest of the leaders of the world. Who is strongest against the wheel of the ring. Not who naturally has resistance. And ideas based upon the mentality of the person. Most of the people that became corrupt had something dark in them. They also had something of an ego, hubris, in other words something the ring could work with to twist the person’s actions and change their desires to something more suitable for the ring. Hobbits are relatively immune to that level of thinking for the simple factor of being rather humble. Once someone is setting their ways it is hard to change them to something they’re naturally not prone to. of the hobbit who had both mental stamina and this humble nature both Bilbo and Frodo had those qualities. they were content in sitting in their homes having 15 meals a day, and maybe 30 on a holiday. :-) and had no interest in general to the world at large or to brag about their importance. That in fact being meek and meager was the rule of the day. To sit back and relax and not worry about the world. Very hard for the ring to find a hook in that mentality. Except maybe to promise they might get 60 meals A day ??? The meek shall inherit the earth. although they would probably just look at it go: oh… This also ties into Catholic teaching
I think what you are forgetting is that The Ring has agency. It has a will of its own, and finds ways to expose itself to find someone to take it back to Sauron. Its fall from Isildur's finger wasn't an accident. Bilbo picking the ring up was providence, but Golem dropping the ring was the rings will. Faramir found the ring on Frodo because the ring willed it. Sealed in a box, it would work its way into the mind of the carrier and they would find themselves like Pandora opening the box and releasing all its evil. The thing in the lake was drawn to the ring even though it was hidden in Frodo's shirt. If he hung around anyone for long, it would find a way to be seen. Isildur really never had a chance, even if he'd survived, the ring would eventually have destroyed him. At the time, it is likely even Galadriel would have not been up to the test, and with all the additional years of wisdom, she just barely passed. It was all together evil and just being in its presence was corrupting. You don't have to see it.
@@TolkienLorePodcast "A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo." --Gandalf p64. from the collectors edition of the Lord of the Rings. "The Ring was trying to get back to its master. It had slipped from Isildur's hand and betrayed him." "It abandoned Gollum." All the Rings of Power have agency, and most especially the One having taken part of Sauron's power and personality. My impressions of the Ring's agency predates by a couple of decades the PJ films.
@@TolkienLorePodcast I am not sure you understand how Tolkienian magic works. The Rings of Power are not machines--they are entities. This actually fits well with Tolkien's Catholicism. Even machines in Tolkien's world are not neutral artifacts, but forces of evil influence. Of course, far be it from me to suggest that Tolkien might be a crypto-animist, but...the trees do talk.
You might want to rethink that. Aule couldn’t give the Dwarves wills and he was unquestionably greater than Sauron, and Tolkien was rather insistent that evil could not create, only mar life. He also thought of magic and machines as basically in the same category. Plus, can you think of any example of a magical artifact being an “entity” as you put it rather than merely a mechanistic thing?
Had Isildur survived and kept the Ring, it is possible that Sauron would never have been able to regain his full power. Without Sauron's influence, the Rings of Power may never have been created, and Middle-earth would have been a very different place. It is also possible that without the Ring, Sauron would not have been able to build Barad-dûr, or lead his armies in wars against the free peoples of Middle-earth.
Sauron didn’t regain his power in the story; not sure what you’re getting at there. The other Rings had already been forged before Isildur took the One from Sauron, and Sauron rebuilt Barad-Dur without the Ring anyway.
I think you are misunderstanding Sauron's power. It was always tied to the One Ring but he did not need to have the ring to wield his power in Middle Earth. I think wearing the One Ring gives him access to the evil power that Morgoth seeded the world with, but he is plenty powerful enough to rule the world. He still has complete control of the Nazgul and command many large armies for him. Plus he has all the Orc Armies on his side. I think that Isildur would be defeated in the end by Sauron, who would get his Ring and rule Middle Earth until the Host of the Valar Part II came to clean house again.
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Rather than having one person deliver it directly from Arnor to Mordor, it would make more sense to send it in stages, say to Gondor where it's handed off to someone who knows more but it fresher, or with more steps in between.
Say send one rider with the box & several riders with letters explaining the box & the plan to arrive before it. No one would actually need to know that they were going to the crack of Doom until say Minas Ithil, and then you're already on the border of Mordor.
I do think the "messenger" would be affected by the ring in a Pandora's box type idea. He would be aware of something inside and curiosity would start gnawing on him to figure out what it is, and that would be the rings opening.
Concerning the whole box thing, anyone charged with that mission would, as you point out, naturally be curious about what is inside the said box, being at least aware there's something mildly special in there, and I think maybe that's in itself something the Ring could play on to use its influence on the envoy. Maybe you should use some kind of relay team to limit that lol.
Sam returned the Ring volunteery to Frodo
Yes, but after Gandalf made his statement.
He didn't have it long enough to develop an addition to the Ring. He was a righteous Hobbit.
I feel that it was impossible for Isildur to give up the ring. The nature of the ring is temptation.For Tolkien, his religious view, which I do not share but do respect, meant that only through the intercession of god was it possible to achieve moral victory. This view is reflected by the impossibility for both Frodo and Isildur, to destroy the ring. Bilbo managed to give it up, I feel he never could have destroyed it. Thanks and keep up the good work.
The Wise don't even dare to take the ring, knowing how hard giving it up would be (given the amount of power they would get). In that sense, simple, honest folk are ideal for the job. Truth is we don't get that much info about Isildur... but being a proud king from a fallen people, angry from what he lost at battle, and in need of power... well I think he wouldn't give it up.
Old comment I know, but I wouldn’t necessarily say Isildur was in need of power. He gave up the rule of Gondor to his nephew even though it was his right to become the High King and rule both kingdoms.
Frodo also lived with Bilbo for decades without being corrupted by the Ring or desiring it.
One thing that doesn't seem to be covered here - what if Isildur decided to wield the full power of the Ring himself? He was arguably one of the greatest of all Numenoreans, could he have bent it to his will, commanded the Wraiths etc? Obviously he would've been corrupted, but would he necessarily have faded like those that became the Nazgul did?
He would probably have become the 'germ' that the reincarnated Sauron took over.
The One Ring doesn't extend life to everyone within close proximity of the Ring Bearer, only to the Ring Bearer himself.
Mortals can never handle the power and evil of the Ring, nor can they ever bend it to their will. On the contrary, they are the most susceptible to its influence.
@@Enerdhil I hold that the "Mouth of Sauron" was selected to be Sauron's ring bearer, to hold the ring and become the seed from which Sauron would again become corporal.
Sauron already had physical form again by the time the LOTR events get started.
One important thing to note is Isildur did not give up the ring or lose in battle or simple lost it. It abandoned him. It also abandoned him in a large river that flowed to the sea. That seems like a good way to be lost forever. I don’t ascribe foreknowledge to the ring even if it could seemingly have a mind of its own. What I do know is the rings very existence gave Sauron some power even if it was at the bottom of the sea and that it did have a mind of its own that was inline with its creator.
I think it abandoned him to aid Sauron. A corrupted Isildur would be a grave threat to the dark lord. It might have known it’s master would take thousands of years to return and it would be better to roll to the sea then let a tyrant conquer the world. Deagal (sp?), you forgot he bore the ring for a very short time, finding it was an act of Iluvatar as was it abandoning Gollum and Bilbo finding it.
In any case I think the rings only deliberate action was to abandon Isildur. Deagal and Bilbo finding it were either luck or divine intervention. Remember, the ring only needed to exist for Sauron to ultimately succeed. What better place then buried in a river. It would also keep someone powerful from finding it by simply hearing of a hobbit with a magic ring. Or perhaps it was simply the matter of power. Gollum and Bilbo and Frodo could never be a threat to Sauron where Isildur could.
This theory has holes, like why did it not abandon Gollum after he claimed it and that the books might say it abandoned him in the goblin caves (if the hiding rather then the relative power of the wielder is the argument with merit), but it might explain why it abandoned Isildur but not Bilbo and Frodo if not Gollum as well.
I think one more thing that would help Isildur with giving it up is that in Rivendell he would be far away from Mount Doom. I'd also think that trying to figure out a way to destroy the Ring would be a lot easier at a time like this when they could actually just walk into Mordor.
Or fly. Without Nazgul around, it'd be much easier in 2 than 3019.
One could just simply walk into Mordor.
That is true. A cake walk into Mordor. Even the Nazgul are nowhere to be found. Still, the problem is what Tolkien said about destroying the Ring. It might turn out that the Nazgul are all holed up in Sammath Naur. 😆🤣😂🤣😆
Smeagol becomes a good and high standing member and may even become mayor of the Stoors. And that's a great thought.
I agree that the second scenario outlined here is the most likely one. Over time, it would have ended utterly badly, with the Ring either being eventually seized by a would-be Ringlord with sufficient innate power, added to that conferred by the Ring, to resist all opposition and become a new Dark Lord, or finding its way back to Sauron. All things considered, Isildur losing the Ring in Anduin was the best thing that could have happened under the circumstances.
You'd also need a very substantial army to accopany the messenger to Mordor,as In Unfinished Tales It mentioned that the Orcs could feel the presence of the Ring,as it had only just been removed from Sauron's Hand.
😃
Just a random point, as I'm in no way, shape or form, an expert in LOTR. I just read the 3 big ones, before the PJ's trilogy even came out.
Just wanted to raise an idea regarding Bilbo/Frodo/Sam as Unique ring bearers.
In tabletop RPG, halflings are generally good, kind, loving, carefree people. All three of them fit the bill. That's essentially how I saw hobbits whenever I read the books. So they're basically the perfect counter to the One's influence over the mind, although not immune.
If you look at it, and add the fact Bilbo got it through an act of mercy, essentially giving himself another protective layer, it would strenghten the case that only Bilbo would ever be capable of giving the Ring up. The Mercy thing itself would mean the Ring had nothing clear to latch onto and potentialize, as Bilbo had no regrets about the whole adventure. Thus the only thing the Ring could influence was .... ownership? Possession? (in both Frodo and Bilbo)
While Sméagol, was more easily corrupted, since by murdering for it, gave the One something to latch on.
Men are portrayed far more on the gray scale, regarding morals and actions (even Aragorn only pursuing the Crown for Arwen, for example), thus no Men would ever be as "protected" as, say, Bilbo / Frodo / Sam, as the One would always have something to latch onto. Grief, love, ambition, rage, regret.... no matter how "pure" the Men in question.
17:01 A certain reminiscence of a certain godmother of a certain Andrew Ketterley comes to mind "no, I won't open the box, yes, I'll just burn it in fire ..." "I did not keep that promise"
I'm with you that I don't think Isildur can directly give up the Ring. Let' say Isildur and his party are an escort fit for the King of the United Kingdoms of the Dunedain in Exile and give the orcs a beatdown. As the wounded are tended and the bodies are buried, Isildur has his moment of clarity. One (The One) would have to consider if he is a useful Ringbearer or not. The further away from Mordor the easier it will be to manage the Ring.
If Isildur and Co. stop over in Rivendell before Isildur assumes his father's throne, I think he has a good chance to be parted from the Ring. He would never be able to give the One Ring to someone else, but he might be convinced to leave it on that table over there and go have an ale with Glorfindel and talk about evil Maia slaying. They have a few rounds. Glorfindel sings some songs, and Isildur starts thinking about his wife and his boy. Glorfindel reminds him he has a kingdom to run. By the third round, the Ring has been placed in a small silver cylinder filled with water and then welded shut by a jewel smith. That gets put in your lockbox Couriers often get orders to deliver unopened parcels so this one shouldn't be any different except for the company of elven heroes that accompany him to Mordor.
If Isildur does not rid himself of the Ring before he takes up the crown of Arnor; he will never be rid of it. Kings make it all too easy (Vader voice) for the Ring's corruption to work on the bearer. Councils would be so much more productive if all your Lords agreed with you. If only everyone else could sing harmony to your melody what a wonderful Arnor we could make together. You did defeat Sauron. These people are all your subjects. They OWE you allegiance. Game over. Like his master before him, even when he looses, Sauron wins.
Great take! I love it!😁
You made a good video. With many good points. I think the first option is more likely. The reason why is I think Isildur might have been motivated by the idea of justice. I am aware as a Christian, Tolkien values mercy over justice but justice can be a good thing. I mean it is a noble thing to avenge the death of a family member against an evil dark lord, which has been common for various heroic fantasy stories.
But I do agree with your remark how Isildur would need help. I believe Elrond might need to call for assistance from at least one other bearer of an Elven Ring of Power or maybe all three. But I believe Isildur would be able to give up the One Ring.
The reason why I think so has to do with the fact Isildur resisted Sauron before when
Sauron was stronger. As a result, I believe he can do so again.
You should also mention that Isildur was one of the Faithful, being totally dedicated to Eru Iluvatar. Eru could give him the strength he needs to complete the task, but then Tolkien himself was very clear that NO ONE could have destroyed the Ring, so this what-if was going to end in same way as the typical what-if scenarios all seem to do.🙄
@@Enerdhil True. I think it would have to be a group effort for Isildur to destroy the ring. I guess I should have mentioned he was one of the Faithful. However this is Tolkien and he had a soft spot for the hobbits because they reminded him of the ideal life he once had.
I have questions about how much 'the Good Guys' knew about the power of the One Ring and when did they learn it. Obviously, the Elves immediately sensed the threat of being dominated by Sauron so they took their rings off but did they come up with an enumerated list of Powers of Sauron's Ring and how could they even investigate such things, especially in the middle of a war? In the immediate aftermath of Sauron's defeat and Isildur taking the Ring did they understand just how much of Sauron's puissance was now in the Ring? When did they learn, and how, that the Ring could only be unmade in the place it was forged (something clearly not true for the other 19 rings). Did the Istari bring word with them from the West that 'Sauron isn't completely gone yet'? Intuiting the corrupting influence of Ring I can I see but what about the other powers such as life extension, or did that have to be learned by interrogating Gollum?
It’s an interesting question that we never get much info on. Also interesting is how they know what little they do know.
Those are great questions. Maybe Eru Iluvatar gave them wisdom and discernment.
Shout out to In Deep Geek!
2:05 I always bring this up whenever I have a conversation (irl or online) about Gollum but your the first RUclipsr I've heard bring it up lol Sméagol was a bad person. He killed his cousin/bestfriend no less for The Ring without even knowing it was magical within moments of laying eyes it, yes there was a subtle negative effect emanating from it but that is no excuse. Bilbo in a similar circumstance, had The Ring for hours, knew it was magic and had much more justification to kill Gollum than Sméagol did Deagol, yet he spared him. A lot of people feel sorry Gollum and fair enough because The Ring ruined his life but he was certainly no saint unlike Bilbo.
Concerning Isildur to be fair, I think he fared much better with The Ring than most humans would. He could recognize it's negative influence on him (something even Frodo denied, though he did technically posses it for much longer) and resolved to take it to Rivendell to be destroyed. I think had he made it there he it is likely he'd ultimately decide to keep it and all manner of things could've occurred because of that, but of all humans we know of he's one of the more resistant to evil.
Saruman would have been happy to take the ring off his hands! Hahaha
We have to believe that, had Isildur survived the Gladden disaster, he would be racked with terrible grief and guilt over the deaths of his 3 sons. Overwhelmed. With such a loss I don’t see how he would be in his right mind, even without the Ring. I just think he would be broken by that loss, and prone to give in to the Ring’s malicious all the easier.
I see any comments claiming that Isildur would never have been able to relinquish the ring due to it's corrupting nature. I recommend this video from In Deep Geek which give some interesting insight regarding Isildur's character and his relation to the ring.
ruclips.net/video/SSErzSst1R4/видео.html&ab_channel=InDeepGeek
Any ideas on what we should make of Gollum’s self deception of the ring being his birthday present contrasted against it literally being Frodo’s birthday present?
Ooh, I never thought about that before. I’d have to think about it but at a glance I’d say it plays into Frodo being kind of the anti-Gollum.
I don’t think it would have been absolutely impossible for Isildur to do it. But really unlikely.
Both Gandalf and Galadriel tell us straight up that they would be destroyed, they would lose their internal battle against the ring. I think that is because the ring is a power multiplier. High level characters get a larger boost to their stats and abilities, but that also gives the ring more power over them.
I actually really like how PJ handles this. Gandalf has convinced Bilbo to give it up, but in the process he has seen some things in Bilbo that really worries him. He bends down to pick it up and start investigate, but gets a strong flash of evil Sauron vibes and redraws his hand. When Frodo shows up the ring is lying in the exact same place. And after Frodo picks it up, Gandalf makes him put the ring in an envelope and he still makes absolutely sure not to touch the ring himself. I have a friend who made the joke that the ring is radio active and instead of lead lined gloves and tongs, Gandalf is kinda holding Bilbo by the legs and using him to handle the damned thing.
So anyway, I agree that the most likely outcome is that Isildur keeps the ring against his better judgement. He thinks intellectually that he should give it up or destroy it, but he can’t bring himself to. After a while he starts to deteriorate morally, in ways that both his subjects and allies notice. They have a problem with Isildur, but even that thought puts them in conflict with him. It’s actually not paranoia if your friends and subjects really are out to get your ring, is it?
So I see an increasingly powerful but also increasingly bitter, lonely, paranoid and tyrannical king on the throne, and a huge civil war down the pike. I see a bad moon rising, is what I’m saying. And Sauron is still coming back when he can reassemble some kind of physical form. Which may be sooner in this reality.
So that’s my best guess what would have happened.
I imagine it would have further strained their relationship with the elves, seeing as they could no longer use the three.
I think that would depend on whether or not the Ring had corrupted him yet.
Actually that's true, but then all the Elves would be heading to the Undying Lands an age early.
It could be argued that the pull of the Ring was much weaker right after Sauron was defeated and his spirit hadn't taken form again.
I do think tensions with the elves are the biggest thing to note here, I'm not sure if the friendship would turn to outright hostility. They can certainly aid him in doing it voluntarily, but the problem is of course is Isildur is a king, and forcing him to do it involuntarily doesn't seem possible for his friends.
The audio on this awesome video is pretty low, just letting you know. Keep it up bro
I wonder if I forgot to adjust the gain…
@@TolkienLorePodcast audio is fine for me man.
The audio quality is fine, but the volume is very low. I had to turn it up really high to hear what your were saying, and then a commercial came and almost blasted my eardrums.
Agreed - volume is unusually low on this one compared to your others. Slightly out of sync as well.
The volume is what I’m talking about incase that gets misconstrued
Isildur might have had the best intentions when he started out on his fateful journey,
but would probably not have held out very long against the ring in his possession.
He really should have done as was suggested to him --- immediately throw it into the volcano.
.....But then we wouldn't have such a story about its eventual disposal.
The point or theme of the story was if someone as humble as Frodo couldn't do it on his own than no one could, including Isildur.
I wonder if Sam could have.
@@phoule76 doubt it, although he probably would've gotten closer to doing it if Frodo was physically strong enough to guard Sam against Gollum.
I would think he is willing to give it up enough to get to Mount Doom again, but ends up "doing a Gollum" and ends up in the lava with it.
Whether he realizes that he can't escape the rings corruption and throws himself over in a last act of sacrifice or whether it plays out more like what actually happened in Return of the King, I do not know.
When I think about Isildur I remember Elron’’s word at his council “I advised him to throw it into the fire near at hand.” Why do you assume he was going to get Elrond’s advice, he already had it.
Because he learned a lesson? Seems kinda obvious.
I thought examples like the orcs that shot Isildur and the Watcher in the Water would have been instances where beings were influenced solely by the Ring's proximity.
Not in a corruptive way. Maybe drawn to it (the Watcher) or had their perceptions influenced (orcs), but not in a way that would lead them to want to possess it.
Give the locked box with the Ring to a criminal convicted to a death sentence, have several people take him to the Cracks of Doom. Have him either throw the box and be pardoned or be thrown in with it!
Did Gollum knew about the full powers of the ring? The ring was found down in the river years later and Deagol never knew it was there. I think the ring captures u with it sight..They all gaze on it. The ring has it will of it own.
While I think you're critique of Isildur is correct, I can't help but lean more towards InDeepGeek's point of view, mainly because of how the character of Isildur affects his heirs. In the films, it's sort of a case of a New Adam type situation, yes I did make a Aragon to Christ connection, sorry but the third book is called "The Return Of The King" and to a Christian, Christ is King. While in the books, it hints to more Old Northern European Son-Of situation, going by the books Islidur is a Good man, and to be his heir is a sign that the potential of that same Goodness exists in you, which makes Aragon far more of an ideological threat to Mairon... yes I used his pre-falled, but the point stands
I think it's heavily implied though just being in proximity to the Ring corrupts you. True, the book doesn't say that but I mean...come on. Also, if I'm a soldier with a lockbox instructed not to open it. Nope, I wouldn't. Come on it's an order man just need a loyal soldier.
The Seven didnt effect the dwarves in the manner that the One or the Nine has been shown to effect Mannish beings. How would the One effect a dwarven bearer?
I think the same. The point of the lesser rings was to be a vehicle for domination, achieved by using the One. Dwarves were particularly resistant to such domination but not to corruption.
Even the dwarves, including Thorin, who was shown to suffer from greed, were unaffected by the ring when Bilbo had it.
Unless the greed Thorin suffers is caused in part by the ring? 🤔
Doubtful. None of them even knew he had the Ring, and Thorin had plenty of other reasons to be greedy, dragon sickness being a big one.
@@TolkienLorePodcast
I've always thought "dragon sickness" was an interesting expression to use, but I don't think that Thorin was without need for the gold and other riches. Also I am sure he didn't know the exact value of all that was in Erebor. Another thing is that he was willing to share it with his Dwarves. All this makes me think "dragon sickness" is a strange choice of words, even though I find the expression quite cool😎
The wars of succession: Isildur keeps the ring and it becomes a symbol of rule like the iron throne. Middle earth devolves into internecine war for generations until it falls in the hands of Sauron. GRR Martin: get on it.
Also, i think it’s fair to say that the ring is an existential threat with or without Sauron. Even in the unlikely event that the ring doesn’t fall to Sauron after some backstabbing and civil war, the wars between elves and men would literally sunder the children of illuvatar. An irreparable break between the free peoples would be as good as a Sauron victory IMO
Sam gave it up as well bro
I've alwaysthought that Sam is overlooked for this ability.
That why I dislike the class levels in England it's so overwhelming when it comes to frodo and Sam it bout the only relationship I dislike
Was about to say the same thing. I think Sam hesitated a bit but that was it. Frodo certainly didn’t have to hold him at knife point or beat him up to get it.
Not at the time Gandalf made the statement.
Technically Gandalf plucked it out of the fire with tongs so he bore it and gave it up.
What do you think the effect would be of the fact that nearly all his sons had sacrificed themselves to let him get away, for the express purpose of destroying the Ring.
I’m not sure that would have much impact. External influences like that don’t seem to play into it much. It’s more about the bearer’s own will to resist the Ring.
The volume is very low on this video
I thought it was just my cheap device.😂🤣😆
Ok ok ok. So in the "he willing gives it up" scenario, with the ring in a lockbox and a almost empty Mordor.....then could you use the eagles? lol
Just stop. Okay maybe, but still just stop.
Would the One Rings influence be able to stop someone else from pushing the ring bearer into the fires of Mt Doom?
Maybe? It clearly can influence those who aren’t in possession of it but it seems weaker that way, so I think it would have to be with someone like Boromir who was already attracted to it.
This what-if scenario is not so far-fetched like most of them are. The odds of Isildur, his sons and entourage getting killed by a roving band of orcs has to be very, very low. I think it was likely an act of Iluvatar that caused those orcs to be out there in the first place. Isildur was never going to be able to hand his ring over to Elrond or anyone else. He was going to claim it and become another Witch King of Eriador. Tolkien was crystal clear about this issue of who could resist the ring or destroy it. NO ONE.
Tom Bombadil gave it up willingly. Still counts
I disagree with the supposed "unlawfulness" of Isildur taking the Ring.
After all he was the crown prince of a nation wronged by Sauron. The lives
taken by Sauron directly and indirectly far outnumbered those taken by Sauron
at the time of his (apparent) death. He had right to claim the Ring as spoils of war
and as weregild, not only of his father, but also of countless subjects killed in the war.
3 Rings for the Elven Kings under the Sky
7 for the Dwarf Lords beneath their halls of Stone
9 for mortal men doomed to die
This part of the poem or prophecy is very important to bring up here in regards to theory crafting for the ring. Remember that even though Sauron was defeated by Isildur "Physically". His intelligence, essence, spirit, and malice were still well and ticking in the ring that Isildur took and eventually kept. With that in mind, if Isildur did not die in the Gladden fields, the ring would still have corrupted his heart and soul to a point that he would no longer be recognized as Isildur. Why do I say this? Lets look at a couple of things.
The first, is that in Middle Earth and with Sauron and the ring, men are easily corrupted. Sauron hated all men, but the numenoreans especially, for obvious reasons. When he created all of the rings in the second age, his intent was to rule over all of the races in Middle Earth. His intent for men was very clear from the beginning. We just need to look at the Nazgul for reference here.
Now, I'm sure you are going to bring up Gollum, Bilbo, and Frodo. What makes them different from Isildur here, is that they are hobbits (or very closely related to hobbits in Gollum's case), not men. Why is that an important distinction you ask? Because Hobbits were not awakened in Arda, or fully around in Middle Earth until about the beginning of the 3rd age. If there were hobbits in the second age, I am fairly certain that Sauron would have made rings or tried to corrupt them as well. This is why (in my opinion), they did not wake until near or after Sauron's defeat in the 2nd age. When Gollum, Bilbo, and Frodo take the ring into their possession, of course the ring tries to corrupt them, does anything it can to return to its master. However, Hobbits are very different from, elves, dwarves, and men: The key difference here, is that hobbits have no ties or history with Sauron like the other races do.
Now Gollum became corrupted pretty easily, because he was already malicious in his heart, before he even took the ring. This is evident, as he very quickly resorts to murdering his cousin Deagle for the ring. Bilbo was the thief, but he had no mal intent in his heart when he took the ring. Therefore, Bilbo had quite the resistance to its corruption in addition to being a hobbit. Frodo would ultimately become the ring's last bearer and would also be the least corruptible to the ring's power. Why? because Frodo never took the ring, stole the ring, or tried to get the ring in any malicious way. He literally receives it from Bilbo (with the help of Gandalf of course). We also know that Frodo had a very good heart. He was respected by all around him, and he always tried his best to do the right thing. However, even with Frodo, being as good as he was, still could not actually "throw" the ring into Mount Doom. This was by design, of course, because no one, other that the original owner (Sauron), or by some divine intervention, could the ring actually be destroyed. And, that is basically what happened. If Gollum was not there at that moment, and had he not bitten off Frodo's finger for the ring, do I think the ring would have been destroyed at all. So the way everything ends up playing out, and the events leading up to the ring's destruction had a specific design or plan in mind.
I know this was a long response, but I just felt this was something left out in the discussions. I am just a nerd though, so don't mind me lol. Great stuff as always, and I love your channel.
Sauron would not have considered Hobbits dangerous enough to be a threat or helpful enough to be of use to him. Sauron would think it beneath him to make rings of power for them. Also the hobbits were relatively unknown by most for ages.
Also Sauron didn't make rings for every intelligent race. Only a select few. Ents, Eagles, and Beornings are all intelligent. So there is precedent for ignoring Hobbits. The main counterpoint to this argument would be the logistical problems of giving these races rings of power. Could an eagle even wear a ring? But this problem doesn't seem to effect the other two. So you must accept that not all races got rings of power.
Finally, Hobbits are as a general rule counted as an offshoot of men. So they are already included by extension. As a result of this I believe they share the fate of men when they perish. As opposed to the Elves tied to Arda or the Dwarves fates.
Also the shared history if Hobbits and Men is hinted at even in LotR when in the books Merry notes some linguistic similarities between the Hobbits and the Rohirrim.
interesting. What I mean is you missed one of the biggest points Tolkien made about the hobbits. You approached the issue much like the rest of the leaders of the world. Who is strongest against the wheel of the ring. Not who naturally has resistance. And ideas based upon the mentality of the person. Most of the people that became corrupt had something dark in them. They also had something of an ego, hubris, in other words something the ring could work with to twist the person’s actions and change their desires to something more suitable for the ring. Hobbits are relatively immune to that level of thinking for the simple factor of being rather humble. Once someone is setting their ways it is hard to change them to something they’re naturally not prone to.
of the hobbit who had both mental stamina and this humble nature both Bilbo and Frodo had those qualities. they were content in sitting in their homes having 15 meals a day, and maybe 30 on a holiday. :-)
and had no interest in general to the world at large or to brag about their importance. That in fact being meek and meager was the rule of the day. To sit back and relax and not worry about the world. Very hard for the ring to find a hook in that mentality. Except maybe to promise they might get 60 meals A day ???
The meek shall inherit the earth. although they would probably just look at it go: oh…
This also ties into Catholic teaching
I think what you are forgetting is that The Ring has agency. It has a will of its own, and finds ways to expose itself to find someone to take it back to Sauron. Its fall from Isildur's finger wasn't an accident. Bilbo picking the ring up was providence, but Golem dropping the ring was the rings will. Faramir found the ring on Frodo because the ring willed it. Sealed in a box, it would work its way into the mind of the carrier and they would find themselves like Pandora opening the box and releasing all its evil. The thing in the lake was drawn to the ring even though it was hidden in Frodo's shirt. If he hung around anyone for long, it would find a way to be seen. Isildur really never had a chance, even if he'd survived, the ring would eventually have destroyed him. At the time, it is likely even Galadriel would have not been up to the test, and with all the additional years of wisdom, she just barely passed. It was all together evil and just being in its presence was corrupting. You don't have to see it.
The Ring doesn’t have a will of its own; that’s a misconception based on the line in the PJ trilogy.
@@TolkienLorePodcast "A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo." --Gandalf p64. from the collectors edition of the Lord of the Rings. "The Ring was trying to get back to its master. It had slipped from Isildur's hand and betrayed him." "It abandoned Gollum." All the Rings of Power have agency, and most especially the One having taken part of Sauron's power and personality. My impressions of the Ring's agency predates by a couple of decades the PJ films.
But that’s explainable as machinery or programming. If the sting really had a true will it could have made some much smarter decisions.
@@TolkienLorePodcast I am not sure you understand how Tolkienian magic works. The Rings of Power are not machines--they are entities. This actually fits well with Tolkien's Catholicism. Even machines in Tolkien's world are not neutral artifacts, but forces of evil influence. Of course, far be it from me to suggest that Tolkien might be a crypto-animist, but...the trees do talk.
You might want to rethink that. Aule couldn’t give the Dwarves wills and he was unquestionably greater than Sauron, and Tolkien was rather insistent that evil could not create, only mar life. He also thought of magic and machines as basically in the same category. Plus, can you think of any example of a magical artifact being an “entity” as you put it rather than merely a mechanistic thing?
Cć my
Had Isildur survived and kept the Ring, it is possible that Sauron would never have been able to regain his full power. Without Sauron's influence, the Rings of Power may never have been created, and Middle-earth would have been a very different place. It is also possible that without the Ring, Sauron would not have been able to build Barad-dûr, or lead his armies in wars against the free peoples of Middle-earth.
Sauron didn’t regain his power in the story; not sure what you’re getting at there. The other Rings had already been forged before Isildur took the One from Sauron, and Sauron rebuilt Barad-Dur without the Ring anyway.
I think you are misunderstanding Sauron's power. It was always tied to the One Ring but he did not need to have the ring to wield his power in Middle Earth. I think wearing the One Ring gives him access to the evil power that Morgoth seeded the world with, but he is plenty powerful enough to rule the world. He still has complete control of the Nazgul and command many large armies for him. Plus he has all the Orc Armies on his side.
I think that Isildur would be defeated in the end by Sauron, who would get his Ring and rule Middle Earth until the Host of the Valar Part II came to clean house again.