Peter Jackson did a huge disservice to Denethor by not including a quick scene showing him wrestling with Sauron through the seeing stone. He just makes Denethor into a giant jerk with no redeeming qualities and worse, for no reason.
I don’t think we’re supposed to understand that Sam is “figuring out” he didn’t eat it. Rather I think he realized exactly what Gollum did, which he didn’t really have an explanation for earlier.
I agree, it struck me as ridiculous when I first saw it…but that moment when Sam reappears with Sting in hand is SO amazing. I still remember the theater 21 years ago - it exploded into cheers at that scene! I don’t think that moment would have been as impactful without Sam being sent away first.
The scene with Theoden complaining about Gondor also echoes his line from the previous film, "Where was Gondor when the Westfold fell?" and has the same issue: Rohan never sent for aid in the first place. Tolkien never assigns an age to Legolas and one is never given for him in the films. However, background material for the films (Chris Smith's Visual Companions) gives Legolas the birth-year of Third Age 87.
Great video as usual. Most of your points I completely agree with, some of them I want to add something to Elrond being in Dunharrow (and the elves from Lorien being in Helm's deep) _could_ be explained if we were to assume that the Elrond/Arwen/Galadriel scenes happened completely out of order and that Elrond and Galadriel have information they acquire through Galadriel and/or Elrond's foresight. So Elrond and the elf army actually left towards Rohan around when the Fellowship left Lorien, and they knew where to go because Galardiel's mirror told them. It isn't good writing, I admit. I presume the reason these scenes are in the movies is because Arwen wouldn't otherwise have any role or impact in them and the writers thought that because of how important she was to Aragorn's character arc she should have more scenes than she got in the book, which is fair but the scenes should have been written better The king of the dead scene: My interpretation hs always been that he doesn't recognise the sword nor that Aragorn is Isildur's heir until he tries to attack him. I always presumed that if Aragorn was someone else then the ghost sword would have passed through his sword, and Aragorn being able to block his attack and grab him tells the king that Aragorn is the real deal Denethor despairing that Rohan didn't arrive makes sense for movie-Denethor. I don't agree with how they changed his character, they basically took him how he was in his last moments - mad with grief and irrational - and made it his entire character. But for that mad and irrational character he is in the movie it makes sense that he would do something irrational like refuse to call his ally and then get mad when said ally didn't arrive. Movie-Denethor is a bad interpretation but at least he is consistently written The trebuchets of Minas Tirith are shooting the pieces of masonry that came down when the orc catapults shot the city. That is completely unrealistic of course, a trebuchet cannot shoot anything heavier than its countetweight let alone a distance like that. A very weird scene With the siege tower scene, maybe the idea was that the archers tried to shoot through some holes in the side to hot the orcs within, but the set designer forgot to put holes in the towers? That's the only reason i can think of
Regarding the king of the dead, you’re right, it my point was that even after that he still acts like Aragorn has no real authority. The trebuchets can’t be shooting masonry that just broke because the orcs had only shot decapitated heads and fireballs up to that point I think, and even if they had shot heavier things some of the trebuchets are too high up to be near the damage, plus there’s the fact that it would take immense time and effort to move such heavy stuff from where it fell to the trebuchets.
So, Elrond went to Lórien first before going on to Dunharrow with the elf army? That's the first I've heard of this and it would have made his journey even longer and more dangerous. He doesn't actually turn up with the elf army - as this went to Helm's Deep and not Dunharrow. And it still would have taken at least a few days to move an army from Lórien to Helm's Deep, by which time the battle would have been over. So, are we to assume that Galadriel's mirror can see into the future, so the elf army would have been able to set off a week before the siege to get there on time? And as for Elrond, he turned up at Dunharrow separately from the elf army (which presumably had been destroyed in its entirety because we never see another elf that was part of it after the battle). Again, Elrond would have to know exactly where Aragorn was at that given time, which would mean that Galadriel's mirror foretold this, thus giving Elrond the chance to get there on time. But this is not how Galadriel's mirror works - you can't google it so that it generates accurate intel on whatever is going on (or going to happen) in the world. Of course, this is fantasy and you can imagine any fantastical reason to explain away apparent plotholes. But with Tolkien, you have to stick to the lore and logic of his world - or (as in the case of Elrond delivering the sword) it just gets silly.
I like the line "Why should we ride to the aid..." After all, Saruman has been attacking Rohan for some time, as we saw in Two Towers, so Gondor should have known about it. Theoden's primary responsibility is to his kingdom -- it's a huge step to ride off with its only army. Anyway it sets up "and Rohan will answer", one of the best moments. Also, Theoden would know exactly how many men to expect, from the Rohirric Domesday Book or something like that. If it's less it's less, again heightening the tension
"Why should we ride to the aid" is possibly one of the dumbest lines in the movie. 1st of all, if Gondor falls, Rohan falls next 100% guaranteed. That's reason enough to aid them: pure practicality 2nd, Denethor had a reason not to aid Rohan: it was under the constant threat of Mordor. Both Gondor and Rohan were on their own, then Theoden defeated his (much weaker) opponent and was free to assist his ally. Of course he would do it 3rd, even if Denethor had acted dishonorably (which again wasn't the case, he had a good reason to not help) that doesn't mean Theoden should do the same. Helping an ally when you can help is the honorable thing to do and Theoden is a man of honor, so he naturally should do it
@@exantiuse497 Sure. But we see Theoden actually making the choice, "and Rohan will answer", so it's dramatised. The alliance of Rohan with Gondor was always rather one-sided, Gondor usually being the side that needed help -- even in the book Eomer mentions an anti-war faction, possibly not confined only to Wormtongue.
As for the part about Frodo trusting Gollum, the movies seem to want to make the case that Frodo is trying to redeem Gollum. Frodo wants Gollum to have some shred of goodness still in him, because he needs it - because if Gollum can be saved from the ring's effect, then so can he. He sees Gollum as a reflection of himself, and that he could be corrupted by the ring too. And his desire for Gollum to have a good heart overrides his friendship with Sam. I'm not saying I agree with it or like it... but that seems to be what the movies were going for there. Otherwise, as noted, that whole subplot makes little sense. Edit: Also, yes technically Gandalf did ask if Pippin saw Minas Tirith but Pippin didn't answer; he was traumatized and instead started talking about seeing Sauron. So we don't know if Pippin knew what Minas Tirith looked like prior to actually going there. I chalk that up to Gandalf not knowing what Pippin knows, and Pippin doesn't get around to answering. But I get it, you're going for "extremely nitpicky". 🙂
In thinking, I suspect the “less than half” should’ve been Denethor’s line from the book in reference to the levy’s coming to support Minas Tirith. And not in reference to Rohan’s muster.
There were some spots where it was blisteringly obvious that something had been added for Hollywood Purposes, which annoyed me. I wasn't just mad it was different from the book, I was mad because people *adored* a bunch of the beats that came right from the text - there was no need to Hollywood it up.
I can see how Peter Jackson would have missed the whole nonsense with the shooting at the towers on account of the fact that he's a horror director so he wouldn't have seen the illogic in it and also the fact of the matter is you've got actors who are shooting at monsters they can't see and also you've got CGI extras filled in who are just going to be counted on to do something that looks cool on film.
I have watched and read a number of different people talking about the psychology of soldiers in modern warfare (US civil war through world wars). More often than not groups of soldiers are just shooting blindly in a state of excitement/panic/fear because everyone else is shooting too. And this is something that modern militaries are constantly trying to train out of their soldiers. So I guess it doesn't seem that big of a stretch to me that soldiers on a wall would be shooting at the tower, rather than at what was moving the tower.
@@TolkienLorePodcast I imagine Isildur commanded them to come and fight against Sauron and they refused the command when the time came, which is what turned them into oathbreakers.
I was disappointed with the composition of the battle of the Pelennor. It was great technically (well, aside from the steed of the Nazgul, which looked like it teleported from Heavy Metal), but the city was forced into the immediate backgrounds of a battle that was out in front of it, miles even. With all the fires, the city should have been barely visible. Maybe "They Shall Not Grow Old" was atonement.
The battle is fantastic! I'll never forget the image of the winged Nazgul flying over the plain. The creatures IMHO descend from Tenniel's illustration of the Jabberwock in 'Alice Through the Looking Glass'. Yeah the action is compressed. Book-Theoden gives two different speeches, "Oaths ye have sworn' and "Arise, riders of Theoden". The film repurposes them to amazing effect IMHO.
I think the treatment of Denethor in the film was much worse than that of Théoden. Théoden is at least given more agency than in the book, in that it's his decision to retreat to Helm's Deep and not Gandalf's. In fact, if he'd followed Gandalf's advice, it's likely that his entire army would have been crushed in the field by Saruman's much greater forces. This shows him being a worthy king rather than someone who just automatically does whatever Gandalf tells him to do. But on the other hand, it depicts Gandalf as being a bit of an idiot if he thought a couple of thousand Rohirrim could feasibly take on a 10,000-strong army. Denethor, meanwhile, is portrayed as a raving madman almost from the outset. Why doesn't he call for aid from Rohan?? Just because he was a loony - even before the war had started? No reason or rationale is ever given for this, with the screenplay seemingly just allowing Pippin to do his daredevil stuff in lighting the beacons instead of making sense. And that brings us to Pippin - hadn't he just, in the preceding scene, put himself in Denethor's service and sworn solemnly to obey his command? And yet, five minutes later he's breaking that very oath by utterly disobeying Denethor's authority. Oaths are a huge thing in Tolkien's world (see: the Army of the Dead) and I can't understand why they are treated as an irrelevance in Jackson's movies.
Mellon Geek: Once again, excellent analysis. This movie in the trilogy is my least favorite, and you have hit here a few of my pet peeves. I'm sure you'll get to the ones that really annoy me in the second part. It always bothered me that Jackson felt it necessary somehow to have the Sword Reforged not enter the plot till far later than Tolkien did. Strategically, that doesn't make a lot of sense. Why would the Heir of Elendil go off on quest without Elendil's sword? Perhaps the rapid teleport that movie Elrond must have done to arrive at that point in Dunharrow is the reason the RoP idiots felt they could get away with it--over and over again. And did I miss the whole Dernhelm subplot that Tolkien obviously thought was a good device to use in order to surprise us with Eowyn later. Jackson could have used that to advantage. Keep up the good work, mellon. Namarie.
Dernhelm works well in writing. It works much less well in a visual medium. I think given the different mediums, it was done as well as it could have been. Obviously, I think Tolkien's writing was superior and the reveal hits so hard, but I can't see them managing it in an audiovisual medium. Unless the first time we see 'Dernhelm' is when 'he' faces off against the Witch King, but then we would have missed the interaction with Merry and explaining how he manages to join the fight.
I think the Dernhelm plot would work fine in the movie except for the fact that another change was made that makes Merry’s failure to recognize her implausible: we see him spending a good chunk of time with Eowyn up close and personal. In the book he’s barely aware of her as far as we can tell.
@TolkienLorePodcast I was thinking more along the lines of fooling the audience. In text it is easy. It is 'a young rider naned Dernhelm'. There are some hints but the author is in control of the information. Whereas good luck mistaking Miranda Otto as she speaks and close-ups.
@ even that I think you could manage, with her modifying her own voice and wearing a very concealing helmet, but yeah it would definitely be more difficult.
Theoden's anger about Gondor is so anachronistic and so un-Tolkien. Theoden as Gondor's vassal has no right to voice anger or to refuse call for aid. Duty and honor (forgotten words today, and in the movies) forbid it.
He needed to see the bread to figure out he didn't eat it, before that he thought Gollum was right. It makes no sense but that's what the movie implies!
@@exantiuse497 I think it was more that Sam didn't have an answer for where the lembas were. Gollum framed him and he didn't have an explanation for what actually happened. Finding them was more of an "aha!" that he finally figured out what Gollum had done.
Why are you saying Pippin knows he saw Minas Tirith in the Palantír? It's Gandalf who understands that's what he saw, Pippin only says he saw the burning tree. Also yes Theoden expected more men to come at his call. There's a scene where they tell him the men of Snowbourn didn't come.
"Why are you saying Pippin knows he saw Minas Tirith in the Palantír?" That's not what he said at all. He said it's weird that Gandalf asked Pippin if he saw Minas Tirith. In a world without photography or jpgs, it seems unlikely that an average hobbit would know what Minas Tirith looks like. So Gandalf asking if he saw it is a little weird. But we don't know if Pippin knew it was Minas Tirith because he doesn't answer the question.
You're doing this in two parts, and I don't know whether this will be the first or second part, but here it is. In the book The riders of Rohan get behind the enemy in secret. In the movie they do it out in the open and then stop and line up and the King gives a goofy speech and then they charge infantry that has had time to set up with pikes and spears, which is why they should be able to kill every single last Rider of Rohan Another thing is that when gandalf rides out to rescue faramir he takes Pippin with him In the movie, Danethor is made out to be a classic movie. Bad Father Oh, and they attack the corsairs of Umbar but they only use the ships to transport the dead, who don't need a ship to be transported as is made clear later in the movie. Why did they steal a whole fleet of ships just to carry aragorn and gimli and legolas and a few other hangers on?
Not quite as bad as in Hornburg where the uruk-hai have true pikes. Sure, there is the sun, but all they needed to do was to close their eyes and hold the pike steady. I think at the Pelennor Field, there is enough wavering and the spears are short enough that you could see a lance-charge cracking the formation open. In the books, nothing happens in an instant there either, and arguably the distance that the Rohirrim charge in the movie is shorter than their ride from Rammas Echor. Howard Shore's music does a lot of heavy lifting in that scene, I'll admit. :) As for the ships of Umbar, yes, one of the worst scene of the movie for me is the bubbles of doom wiping the armies out. It is much better in the books, where it is the men of Lebennin (mostly) and rescued galley slaves that sail up the Anduin and attack the orcs in the rear in the nick of time.
It depends on how we look at it. Tolkien only writes something like 10 pages about the 2nd age in the LotR appendixes which RoP is based on, while Jackson of course had the entire story of LotR to work with. RoP gets almost nothing right, so in terms of % of the story RoP is worse, but there are not that many scenes they could change, so in terms of # of original scenes warped beyond recognition PJ takes the cake
I’d say less, but it’s all the more frustrating because of how well he did with so much of it, and how Tolkien gave him detailed scenes that are basically perfect for cinema that PJ just ruins, for no good reason.
@TolkienLorePodcast I guess that is really my question, PJ went directly against the book in a number of places but does RoP do the same amount? I get that they are doing things which weren't written at all and some people don't like it, but how much have they gone directly against the published work? I have to blame the Tolkien estate in some measure for the deviations as well, if they had said "make it like the book" then it might have been a lot more like the book, but instead the Tolkien estate tried a stupid game by licensing the world and the characters but not the stories.
@ RoP goes against hardline stuff a lot. The mere fact that Galadriel was able to go to Valinor in the 2nd Age contradicts every version of her story he ever wrote, because she only received full pardon by rejecting the Ring when Frodo offered it, but there’s plenty more.
Not sure what your motivation was for this video. It’s called “FANTASY”. Stop trying to make sense of every little detail. It’s also called “ADAPTATION”. There’s always going to be changes made for dramatic effect.
I’m sorry you feel that I’m criticizing you. I was unaware that your videos do not stand alone. There are several things about the LOTR, TH and RoP adaptations that I don’t care for either. I still believe you’re nit-picking.
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Peter Jackson did a huge disservice to Denethor by not including a quick scene showing him wrestling with Sauron through the seeing stone. He just makes Denethor into a giant jerk with no redeeming qualities and worse, for no reason.
The Frodo sending Sam home thing was the dumbest thing I've seen in a movie, I think.
I disagree. Sam finding the bread and figuring out he didn't eat it after all was dumber
The thing I like least about the films and is completely jarring for a fan of the books is this whole Sam go home nonsense.
I don’t think we’re supposed to understand that Sam is “figuring out” he didn’t eat it. Rather I think he realized exactly what Gollum did, which he didn’t really have an explanation for earlier.
I agree, it struck me as ridiculous when I first saw it…but that moment when Sam reappears with Sting in hand is SO amazing. I still remember the theater 21 years ago - it exploded into cheers at that scene! I don’t think that moment would have been as impactful without Sam being sent away first.
The scene with Theoden complaining about Gondor also echoes his line from the previous film, "Where was Gondor when the Westfold fell?" and has the same issue: Rohan never sent for aid in the first place.
Tolkien never assigns an age to Legolas and one is never given for him in the films. However, background material for the films (Chris Smith's Visual Companions) gives Legolas the birth-year of Third Age 87.
Great video as usual. Most of your points I completely agree with, some of them I want to add something to
Elrond being in Dunharrow (and the elves from Lorien being in Helm's deep) _could_ be explained if we were to assume that the Elrond/Arwen/Galadriel scenes happened completely out of order and that Elrond and Galadriel have information they acquire through Galadriel and/or Elrond's foresight. So Elrond and the elf army actually left towards Rohan around when the Fellowship left Lorien, and they knew where to go because Galardiel's mirror told them. It isn't good writing, I admit. I presume the reason these scenes are in the movies is because Arwen wouldn't otherwise have any role or impact in them and the writers thought that because of how important she was to Aragorn's character arc she should have more scenes than she got in the book, which is fair but the scenes should have been written better
The king of the dead scene: My interpretation hs always been that he doesn't recognise the sword nor that Aragorn is Isildur's heir until he tries to attack him. I always presumed that if Aragorn was someone else then the ghost sword would have passed through his sword, and Aragorn being able to block his attack and grab him tells the king that Aragorn is the real deal
Denethor despairing that Rohan didn't arrive makes sense for movie-Denethor. I don't agree with how they changed his character, they basically took him how he was in his last moments - mad with grief and irrational - and made it his entire character. But for that mad and irrational character he is in the movie it makes sense that he would do something irrational like refuse to call his ally and then get mad when said ally didn't arrive. Movie-Denethor is a bad interpretation but at least he is consistently written
The trebuchets of Minas Tirith are shooting the pieces of masonry that came down when the orc catapults shot the city. That is completely unrealistic of course, a trebuchet cannot shoot anything heavier than its countetweight let alone a distance like that. A very weird scene
With the siege tower scene, maybe the idea was that the archers tried to shoot through some holes in the side to hot the orcs within, but the set designer forgot to put holes in the towers? That's the only reason i can think of
Regarding the king of the dead, you’re right, it my point was that even after that he still acts like Aragorn has no real authority. The trebuchets can’t be shooting masonry that just broke because the orcs had only shot decapitated heads and fireballs up to that point I think, and even if they had shot heavier things some of the trebuchets are too high up to be near the damage, plus there’s the fact that it would take immense time and effort to move such heavy stuff from where it fell to the trebuchets.
So, Elrond went to Lórien first before going on to Dunharrow with the elf army? That's the first I've heard of this and it would have made his journey even longer and more dangerous. He doesn't actually turn up with the elf army - as this went to Helm's Deep and not Dunharrow. And it still would have taken at least a few days to move an army from Lórien to Helm's Deep, by which time the battle would have been over. So, are we to assume that Galadriel's mirror can see into the future, so the elf army would have been able to set off a week before the siege to get there on time? And as for Elrond, he turned up at Dunharrow separately from the elf army (which presumably had been destroyed in its entirety because we never see another elf that was part of it after the battle). Again, Elrond would have to know exactly where Aragorn was at that given time, which would mean that Galadriel's mirror foretold this, thus giving Elrond the chance to get there on time. But this is not how Galadriel's mirror works - you can't google it so that it generates accurate intel on whatever is going on (or going to happen) in the world.
Of course, this is fantasy and you can imagine any fantastical reason to explain away apparent plotholes. But with Tolkien, you have to stick to the lore and logic of his world - or (as in the case of Elrond delivering the sword) it just gets silly.
The boat Orcs doing surprise attack in Osgiliath, with all the torches on is ridiculous also
"Did this conversation happen over days?"
Well they are elves, so that's entirely plausible.
I like the line "Why should we ride to the aid..." After all, Saruman has been attacking Rohan for some time, as we saw in Two Towers, so Gondor should have known about it. Theoden's primary responsibility is to his kingdom -- it's a huge step to ride off with its only army. Anyway it sets up "and Rohan will answer", one of the best moments.
Also, Theoden would know exactly how many men to expect, from the Rohirric Domesday Book or something like that. If it's less it's less, again heightening the tension
"Why should we ride to the aid" is possibly one of the dumbest lines in the movie.
1st of all, if Gondor falls, Rohan falls next 100% guaranteed. That's reason enough to aid them: pure practicality
2nd, Denethor had a reason not to aid Rohan: it was under the constant threat of Mordor. Both Gondor and Rohan were on their own, then Theoden defeated his (much weaker) opponent and was free to assist his ally. Of course he would do it
3rd, even if Denethor had acted dishonorably (which again wasn't the case, he had a good reason to not help) that doesn't mean Theoden should do the same. Helping an ally when you can help is the honorable thing to do and Theoden is a man of honor, so he naturally should do it
@@exantiuse497 Sure. But we see Theoden actually making the choice, "and Rohan will answer", so it's dramatised. The alliance of Rohan with Gondor was always rather one-sided, Gondor usually being the side that needed help -- even in the book Eomer mentions an anti-war faction, possibly not confined only to Wormtongue.
@@pwmiles56 That's a matter of geography more than anything else. Gondor in effect shielded Rohan from many attacks.
As for the part about Frodo trusting Gollum, the movies seem to want to make the case that Frodo is trying to redeem Gollum. Frodo wants Gollum to have some shred of goodness still in him, because he needs it - because if Gollum can be saved from the ring's effect, then so can he. He sees Gollum as a reflection of himself, and that he could be corrupted by the ring too. And his desire for Gollum to have a good heart overrides his friendship with Sam.
I'm not saying I agree with it or like it... but that seems to be what the movies were going for there. Otherwise, as noted, that whole subplot makes little sense.
Edit: Also, yes technically Gandalf did ask if Pippin saw Minas Tirith but Pippin didn't answer; he was traumatized and instead started talking about seeing Sauron. So we don't know if Pippin knew what Minas Tirith looked like prior to actually going there. I chalk that up to Gandalf not knowing what Pippin knows, and Pippin doesn't get around to answering. But I get it, you're going for "extremely nitpicky". 🙂
They had to include the "less than half of what I hoped for" as PJ clearly had a mind for the memes that would come post film😉
In thinking, I suspect the “less than half” should’ve been Denethor’s line from the book in reference to the levy’s coming to support Minas Tirith. And not in reference to Rohan’s muster.
Now those were some nits you were picking!
There were some spots where it was blisteringly obvious that something had been added for Hollywood Purposes, which annoyed me. I wasn't just mad it was different from the book, I was mad because people *adored* a bunch of the beats that came right from the text - there was no need to Hollywood it up.
I can see how Peter Jackson would have missed the whole nonsense with the shooting at the towers on account of the fact that he's a horror director so he wouldn't have seen the illogic in it and also the fact of the matter is you've got actors who are shooting at monsters they can't see and also you've got CGI extras filled in who are just going to be counted on to do something that looks cool on film.
I have watched and read a number of different people talking about the psychology of soldiers in modern warfare (US civil war through world wars). More often than not groups of soldiers are just shooting blindly in a state of excitement/panic/fear because everyone else is shooting too. And this is something that modern militaries are constantly trying to train out of their soldiers. So I guess it doesn't seem that big of a stretch to me that soldiers on a wall would be shooting at the tower, rather than at what was moving the tower.
I took the reluctance of the King of the Dead to mean they weren't immediately convinced to follow Aragorn.
Ok, but then did the king mean it when he said “command” or not?
@@TolkienLorePodcast I imagine Isildur commanded them to come and fight against Sauron and they refused the command when the time came, which is what turned them into oathbreakers.
I was disappointed with the composition of the battle of the Pelennor. It was great technically (well, aside from the steed of the Nazgul, which looked like it teleported from Heavy Metal), but the city was forced into the immediate backgrounds of a battle that was out in front of it, miles even. With all the fires, the city should have been barely visible. Maybe "They Shall Not Grow Old" was atonement.
The battle is fantastic! I'll never forget the image of the winged Nazgul flying over the plain. The creatures IMHO descend from Tenniel's illustration of the Jabberwock in 'Alice Through the Looking Glass'.
Yeah the action is compressed. Book-Theoden gives two different speeches, "Oaths ye have sworn' and "Arise, riders of Theoden". The film repurposes them to amazing effect IMHO.
I think the treatment of Denethor in the film was much worse than that of Théoden. Théoden is at least given more agency than in the book, in that it's his decision to retreat to Helm's Deep and not Gandalf's. In fact, if he'd followed Gandalf's advice, it's likely that his entire army would have been crushed in the field by Saruman's much greater forces. This shows him being a worthy king rather than someone who just automatically does whatever Gandalf tells him to do. But on the other hand, it depicts Gandalf as being a bit of an idiot if he thought a couple of thousand Rohirrim could feasibly take on a 10,000-strong army. Denethor, meanwhile, is portrayed as a raving madman almost from the outset. Why doesn't he call for aid from Rohan?? Just because he was a loony - even before the war had started? No reason or rationale is ever given for this, with the screenplay seemingly just allowing Pippin to do his daredevil stuff in lighting the beacons instead of making sense. And that brings us to Pippin - hadn't he just, in the preceding scene, put himself in Denethor's service and sworn solemnly to obey his command? And yet, five minutes later he's breaking that very oath by utterly disobeying Denethor's authority. Oaths are a huge thing in Tolkien's world (see: the Army of the Dead) and I can't understand why they are treated as an irrelevance in Jackson's movies.
Also. In the books he left rivendell in fellowship carying the reforged sword, and it was elronds sons bringing the flag that arwyn made.
Mellon Geek: Once again, excellent analysis. This movie in the trilogy is my least favorite, and you have hit here a few of my pet peeves. I'm sure you'll get to the ones that really annoy me in the second part.
It always bothered me that Jackson felt it necessary somehow to have the Sword Reforged not enter the plot till far later than Tolkien did. Strategically, that doesn't make a lot of sense. Why would the Heir of Elendil go off on quest without Elendil's sword? Perhaps the rapid teleport that movie Elrond must have done to arrive at that point in Dunharrow is the reason the RoP idiots felt they could get away with it--over and over again.
And did I miss the whole Dernhelm subplot that Tolkien obviously thought was a good device to use in order to surprise us with Eowyn later. Jackson could have used that to advantage.
Keep up the good work, mellon. Namarie.
Dernhelm works well in writing. It works much less well in a visual medium. I think given the different mediums, it was done as well as it could have been.
Obviously, I think Tolkien's writing was superior and the reveal hits so hard, but I can't see them managing it in an audiovisual medium. Unless the first time we see 'Dernhelm' is when 'he' faces off against the Witch King, but then we would have missed the interaction with Merry and explaining how he manages to join the fight.
I think the Dernhelm plot would work fine in the movie except for the fact that another change was made that makes Merry’s failure to recognize her implausible: we see him spending a good chunk of time with Eowyn up close and personal. In the book he’s barely aware of her as far as we can tell.
@TolkienLorePodcast I was thinking more along the lines of fooling the audience. In text it is easy. It is 'a young rider naned Dernhelm'. There are some hints but the author is in control of the information. Whereas good luck mistaking Miranda Otto as she speaks and close-ups.
@ even that I think you could manage, with her modifying her own voice and wearing a very concealing helmet, but yeah it would definitely be more difficult.
Theoden's anger about Gondor is so anachronistic and so un-Tolkien. Theoden as Gondor's vassal has no right to voice anger or to refuse call for aid. Duty and honor (forgotten words today, and in the movies) forbid it.
Vassal seems like a tough term for an alliance
I always attributed the half as many to time, and loss of men because of the raids before helms deep.
That’s a fair point.
I can reluctantly accept Frodo under the influence of the Ring telling Sam to go home, but it makes no sense that Sam would have done so.
He needed to see the bread to figure out he didn't eat it, before that he thought Gollum was right. It makes no sense but that's what the movie implies!
doesnt make sense for sam nit to even argue it
@@exantiuse497 I think it was more that Sam didn't have an answer for where the lembas were. Gollum framed him and he didn't have an explanation for what actually happened. Finding them was more of an "aha!" that he finally figured out what Gollum had done.
Why are you saying Pippin knows he saw Minas Tirith in the Palantír? It's Gandalf who understands that's what he saw, Pippin only says he saw the burning tree.
Also yes Theoden expected more men to come at his call. There's a scene where they tell him the men of Snowbourn didn't come.
"Why are you saying Pippin knows he saw Minas Tirith in the Palantír?"
That's not what he said at all.
He said it's weird that Gandalf asked Pippin if he saw Minas Tirith. In a world without photography or jpgs, it seems unlikely that an average hobbit would know what Minas Tirith looks like. So Gandalf asking if he saw it is a little weird. But we don't know if Pippin knew it was Minas Tirith because he doesn't answer the question.
You're doing this in two parts, and I don't know whether this will be the first or second part, but here it is. In the book The riders of Rohan get behind the enemy in secret. In the movie they do it out in the open and then stop and line up and the King gives a goofy speech and then they charge infantry that has had time to set up with pikes and spears, which is why they should be able to kill every single last Rider of Rohan
Another thing is that when gandalf rides out to rescue faramir he takes Pippin with him
In the movie, Danethor is made out to be a classic movie. Bad Father
Oh, and they attack the corsairs of Umbar but they only use the ships to transport the dead, who don't need a ship to be transported as is made clear later in the movie. Why did they steal a whole fleet of ships just to carry aragorn and gimli and legolas and a few other hangers on?
Not quite as bad as in Hornburg where the uruk-hai have true pikes. Sure, there is the sun, but all they needed to do was to close their eyes and hold the pike steady.
I think at the Pelennor Field, there is enough wavering and the spears are short enough that you could see a lance-charge cracking the formation open. In the books, nothing happens in an instant there either, and arguably the distance that the Rohirrim charge in the movie is shorter than their ride from Rammas Echor. Howard Shore's music does a lot of heavy lifting in that scene, I'll admit. :)
As for the ships of Umbar, yes, one of the worst scene of the movie for me is the bubbles of doom wiping the armies out. It is much better in the books, where it is the men of Lebennin (mostly) and rescued galley slaves that sail up the Anduin and attack the orcs in the rear in the nick of time.
Good ones all. The ships must have been taken to disguise the army of the dead for dramatic effect! 🤣
Is Peter Jackson more or less guilty than RoP in going directly against the published text?
It depends on how we look at it. Tolkien only writes something like 10 pages about the 2nd age in the LotR appendixes which RoP is based on, while Jackson of course had the entire story of LotR to work with. RoP gets almost nothing right, so in terms of % of the story RoP is worse, but there are not that many scenes they could change, so in terms of # of original scenes warped beyond recognition PJ takes the cake
I’d say less, but it’s all the more frustrating because of how well he did with so much of it, and how Tolkien gave him detailed scenes that are basically perfect for cinema that PJ just ruins, for no good reason.
@TolkienLorePodcast I guess that is really my question, PJ went directly against the book in a number of places but does RoP do the same amount? I get that they are doing things which weren't written at all and some people don't like it, but how much have they gone directly against the published work?
I have to blame the Tolkien estate in some measure for the deviations as well, if they had said "make it like the book" then it might have been a lot more like the book, but instead the Tolkien estate tried a stupid game by licensing the world and the characters but not the stories.
@ RoP goes against hardline stuff a lot. The mere fact that Galadriel was able to go to Valinor in the 2nd Age contradicts every version of her story he ever wrote, because she only received full pardon by rejecting the Ring when Frodo offered it, but there’s plenty more.
First?
Seems so lol
Not sure what your motivation was for this video. It’s called “FANTASY”. Stop trying to make sense of every little detail. It’s also called “ADAPTATION”. There’s always going to be changes made for dramatic effect.
Maybe listen to what I said in the first video I made in this series for an explanation instead of jumping in at the end and criticizing?
I’m sorry you feel that I’m criticizing you. I was unaware that your videos do not stand alone. There are several things about the LOTR, TH and RoP adaptations that I don’t care for either. I still believe you’re nit-picking.
@curtisgarner4720 did you read the title? 🤣
Easily the worst film of the three, IMO.