Tongue Level not just arch the Key to High Notes on Trumpet and other Brass Instrument?
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- Опубликовано: 9 май 2023
- Pop's Book is called "Tongue arch and aperture tunnel" and is available here:
bbtrumpet.com/courses/view/60...
Adam Rapa did a video sharing his views on this:
• Want EASIER High Notes...
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Claude Gordon was teaching that in the 60's and he got it from Herbert Clarke, whom he studied with for 10 years. Claude wrote several books teaching the same thing and how to get from point A to point B with your playing. It even goes back to Arban. Arban mentions using the syllable tu to tongue. Most people miss it. He was French and it is pronounced differently in French. The tip of the tongue would be behind the bottom teeth when you pronounce it correctly in French. It has worked well for me the past 40+ years.
I do think using the top of the tongue to articulate, rather than the front tip, is key.
@@trumpetthoughts both of the teachers I had in private back in the mid 1970s had me use the Arban's old FAT brown book and to use a "ta-ka-ta-ka . . . ." and a "ta-ka-ta-ta-ka-ta . . . " technique for the etudes - aka double and triple tonguing.
This helped me break the barrier. I was able to play high E because of the information I got from this video. Great video!
Glad it helped!
This is it, man. I finally found my issue of constantly getting fatigued without even playing high by using all embouchure and air with my tongue doing whatever it wanted. I was not able to play for long sets and had to play parts down an octave. Now that I've tried this technique, I can play more comfortably and high without resetting while being able to play much longer and more accurately. Time to master this. Thank you lots!
Glad it helped!
Welcome to anchortonguing. The forward arch against the teeth is the arch that works. It is like a light switch. Not enough movement and nothing happens. Use enough of the correct movement and the world opens up for you. Go higher into tonguing with a hiss sound for your high notes and the start to sizzle. Pops (For some reason posted from my wife's account.)
Hey man! I found this video super helpful! I never really had any luck with these concepts but the way you explained it really helped me incorporate it into my playing!
Fantastic! I'm glad it helped you - I'm still working with it but it is really helping me!
So good! I have never understood this but your explanation made so much sense. I was the same as you, all embochure and toungue played no part. Now it makes sense. I sounded kind of like you but will work on it. Thank you so much!
You're welcome. I hope it helps!
Excellent description. I continue to come back with curiosity to tongue position for mid to upper register. I also practice warm up with a lead pipe from a CR 500. After watching your video a few times on this topic it makes good sense about the airflow over the bulk of the tongue and just placing the tip at the top of lower teeth. It just seems logical for the air to move faster as it is directed over the tongue this way. Now the lead pipe buzzing sounds cleaner and I’m finding another gear at the top end of warm ups. It transfers right to the horn and notes are slotting better now. I’m gonna stick with this method with practice and see how far it can take me over time.
Thank you very much
I’ve watched so many videos like this, trying to figure out why I can’t reach the upper register. I just tried following your instructions, wow! What a breakthrough! Thank you!! 😁👍
HURRAY!
I have never understood this even though I have watched Adam Raps and the trumpet prof talk about this. Your explanation was great, you learning to do this and showing the process is great. 👍👍
Glad it was helpful!
This is awesome man! For being a trumpet player for over 8 years, and still not playing into the "screaming" range, this is great man! The only trouble would be pitch/partial control, but I definitely LOVE how this method forces you to "open up" for high notes. Not to mention, my high notes I've tried with this sound better than they ever have (at least until a FORCE them and things get UGLY like normal, lol). Thank you SO much for this new method, always looking for new possibilities. :)
I meant ALMOST 8 years, not that old! XD
It's not really a new method, but thoughts on an existing pedagogy... Glad it helps!
have been playing the trombone for nearly 10 years and this helped a lot. thank you
Glad it helped!
I conccur, in learning over the last 9 months never gave much thought to the tongue, height or arch. With each passing month higher notes just got easier. now at a high B. Higher notes is no longer a goal, but quality of each note playerd...and higher notes will continue to come at a pace associated with Continued embouchure strength development. My usable notes extended to G above the staff and soon A will become usable, then high C and D will reveal themselves. With time these notes all become easier and achieveed Wwith less mp pressure...thanks for the vote of confidence that I am not alone
Sounds like you are on the right track.
Thank you, for your time and confirmation, always worried about bad habits, and not want to correct after learning, difficult to change. God bless
Funny you mention having the tongue forward because I was just experiencing this the other day. The “whistling” is something that Adam Rappa discusses in one of his videos. Also been doing those slurs through the partials as recommended in Alan Vizzutti’s book “High Notes” which help train your aperture. Playing high notes (and better endurance) is a combination of several things together, including tongue position, aperture control and steady air. Hence what you’re musing on here is definitely the right stuff!
I've taken a lesson with Adam before, and of course, read all of the things, but I didn't realize I was missing the top of the tongue behind the teeth (but touching) the bottom teeth so that the air is directed to the lip aperture.
@@trumpetthoughts been trying that but hard to keep the tongue anchored there. Any thoughts on how to do it, other than patience?
@@bobroberts6812 I think patience is over-rated for stuff like this - experimentation is key. Don't be dogmatic about it - the tip of the tongue might move in response to your jaw or lips, but generally, keep it behind the teeth. Do you have a normal length tongue? I ask because if it's very short, this might be more difficult.
@@trumpetthoughts good question! Not sure how you measure that or what to compare to. The tongue always is behind the teeth and does move. Need to experiment more!
Exactly I have listen to Rappa and use all of Vizzutti's material. Cautions against dogmatic approach to in being taught, encourages exploration in development.
Jerry Callet said "tongue through the teeth." Some syllables like eee lead to stretched corners. Also, the tongue drops a 32nd of an inch to articulate, never pulled away. Always in contact with the lower lip.
Yup, that's what I'm trying to do. :D
helped. before i was strugeling to play g2 becuase i need to push mouthpiece in to the lip which wasnt good. thank. wnat more that videos
Glad this helped you!
What does your tongue do when you go back down the staff notes?
Also, what is your embouchure doing? Are you making the hole smaller at all?
Have not tried this yet but will after your video. Thanks!
The tongue lowers and by doing so moves back a bit (but only think of lowering it, really). The tip of the tongue stays behind the bottom teeth, for this approach. The embouchure is responding to the change in air pressure from the tongue level.
Great video. I've always struggled with what people mean when they say tongue arch, because I've experienced the same thing you have where moving your tounge around doesn't seem to do much. However, I think I have naturally developed a playing method similar to what you are stumbling upon, because my younger resta again the bottom teeth when I play too. I will also sometime anchor the mid part of my tongue to the inside of the first sets of molars right after my I teeth and then use the front of my tongue to do any of the tonguing and pitch manipulation while I play. Sometimes I find that can give me a bright sound but also will make it super easy for high notes to come out.
Sounds like we are on a similar path!
It’s the method Callet and Gordon, etc
More simply, it is the position of the whistle.
What size mouthpieces did you use in this video.
i play french horn and have been struggling with this. even when i anchor my tongue i feel like it's not changing my air speed... are you "raising" the back of your tongue or the front? by "pinning" your tongue are you pressing against your bottom teeth to bend / arch the tongue or just kind of setting it there? any response would be appreciated!
I’m both raising the tongue, and bringing it closer to my lips as I ascend. Tongue rests against the bottom teeth, and then arches upwards and forwards towards the front teeth. Hope this helps!
@@trumpetthoughts thank you for your response! i will try this out in my practice tomorrow. i seem to be having the same issue as you (moving my tongue in my mouth has very little to no effect on my sound / pitch)... hopefully something clicks soon!
That’s a great experience isn’t it..😀 I know very well but this is long time ago thanks God..
I’d like to give you a tip. if you use your tongue that way you’ll really create more compression(it should be not the main compression) so involve your facial muscles and your sides of your cheek. to lead The compressed small air to where it should go.. directly to the entrance.. never let the time go back ..stay there. it will get easier and easier and you get more and more control. thanks for sharing your knowledge..🎺❤️👋😁
I've been getting in to what Pops McLaughlin has to say about this, and he feels that tongue level, forward arch (hiss), and the muscles around the face, but not as far out as the cheeks, are key.
You can't "compress" the air to be more than lung compression, sorry. And air will always flow to the exit, it doesn't have to be "guided" . Tongue movements are related to embouchure effort that is natural feeling because it is related to certain "eating" actions (the native function of the mouth). Not any of that stuff you theorize.
@@darryljones9208 Great,that’s fine if it works for you..beautiful..😁👋👍
@@siegfriedwifling907 I'm not saying one should not allow the tongue to move. Most do it naturally and I encourage it. But It doesn't require false concepts and aims to justify.
Hi @TrumpetThoughts I tried your method of having the tongue touch the lower teeth, but when I did that the sound just stops until I move the tongue back. Can high notes really be effortless without a muscular embouchure, a strong diaphragm, and years of consistent practice?
Yes, it can. Now, you do need SOME muscle, but not as much as we often think. Remember that Wayne Bergeron, Maynard Ferguson, Roger Ingram, Scott Englebright, et al were playing well above High C in middle school and high school. How much strength could they have developed in their early teenage years???
I just found your channel. Cool stuff. I’m excited for you. You should checkout Claude Gordon’s Daily Trumpet Routines book and the first lessons 3-25 with all the models. If you think you feel the notes now with tongue level , then wait until you practice those exercises with K tongue and other models. I started with Claude Gordon in 1984 and you nailed it with saying it’s easier. I can literally feel every note before I play it. Not with my lips but with my tongue. He used to say that most all our playing is in that forward most part of the tongue. You want the arch there and not back in the mouth. When you are single tonguing with K Tongue Modified (some call it anchor tonguing) it makes it so that front portion of your tongue works exactly the same for slurring and K tonguing and KTM single tonguing. People that try to tongue with their tip up can’t experience what you are now sensing. Cool. Have fun! I love seeing this click with people. That’s one of the big lightbulb moments I love to see happen with students. Once they get it there is no going back.
It's been a lot of fun experimenting with this!
Jerome Callet ... you are doing tongue controlled embouchure. In order to keep your tongue anchored where you say it is ALL THE TIME then the forward 1/3 of your tongue touches your top teeth to interrupt the air stream in order to articulate.
I wasn't quite doing that here, but I am now. More content to come!
Great shirt, cool shades, super video
Haha - thanks!
I think I do something similar, but I find it quite difficult to force enough air in over the tongue to get a solid strong tone, especially above C3, hopefully that becomes easier with enough practice.
Hmm - really doesn't take much air at all. I'm thinking maybe something is placed wrong...
@@trumpetthoughtsmaybe I should clarify, I am kind of pushing my tongue on my lower lip and it is tough to make it sound good so I am compensating it by trying to force lot of air in to get a "strong" tone, it works sometimes, sometimes it just "suffocates".
@@darkmagic543 Is your tongue going between your teeth?
It will vary due to thickness and length of the tongue...I'm what Reinhardt would classify as a type 1 tongue-thick, short and wide-like a paddle...others have thin tongues or the long freaky Gene Simmons snake tongue...all will affect things, but to what degree I'm still not sure...
Yeah, Reinhardt had all the tongue types classified.
Its to do with whether there is seal if you dont seal all the way to the mp then tbe air goes everywhere and your back of the tongue is the main speed controller . Both legitimate ways to play. The full seal way is more compact and louder, but maybe less rich tone
I don't quite understand what it is you are meaning here by not a full seal...
It’s like putting your thumb over the end of a garden hose. To play higher you need faster air and more resistance and back pressure.
I've always heard that, but it never worked for me until I figured out this approach.
ive started actually using my tounge levels propery and finally unlocked a high G. the highest i got before was a C
👊🏻
Thank you this was very helpful.I am beginner trumpet player. Almost year ago l pick up a trumpet,and said 3 values how could this be. Lol
3 values,How hard could this be LOL
LOL - you aren't the first person to think that!
You explained what the TCE method is
Tongue anchored to the bottom lip
Look up Bahb Civiletti who co wrote trumpet Secrets with Jerome Callet
Also Rich Colquon
I feel like with TCE the tongue is always arched against the top teeth - or is that just for the extreme upper register?
@@trumpetthoughts
Yes you move your tongue as you ascend and descend it’s anchored to bottom lip
What trumpet model do you have?
Well, I have several. 🤣
This one is my Edwards X-13, available here: erniewilliamson.com/search.aspx?searchterm=edwards
Thank you👍
You say that you leave the tip of your tongue at the top of your bottom teeth, but at 04:05 it looks more like the toungue is behind your teeth.
Yeah, I'm still experimenting. I essentially want the top of my tongue even with the top of my bottom teeth so that the airstream is being directed to my embouchure.
Is this like you woul say "LLLLLL" why you play. If you say L your tonge does this move? Or is your tongue more like "ssssss"?
Oooh - interesting idea! It moves from sssss to LLLLLL
If you want to go further up try closing your yaw slightly at the same time. Needs training but yeah..
I have noticed that. Gotta be careful with that jaw movement - can get too chippy if not careful.
I love that the “god-given” ability to hit insanely high notes boils down to mastering a technique of tongue placement and is completely demystified.
I would be concerned with what putting the tongue behind or on the lower teeth does to clarity and lightness of tonguing for classical articulation. I know some fine classical players do it. I think in recommending a radically different contact/release point for the tongue, both on the the tongue and on the gums or teeth, it might be good to discuss its effect on articulation.
Certainly! I do think most pro players actually articulate this way. I know that Jens Lindemann has publicly stated that he articulates this way.
Congrats. You’ve discovered tongue controlled embouchure per Jerome Callet.
I don't think that's what I'm doing, although it was what I was trying to figure out when I discovered this...
Your comment led me down the rabbit hole of trying to learn TCE again, which has been very helpful. So - thanks!
Yes i articulate like that i use arch my tongue when i play high register using ah ee
Fantastic!
It has nothing to do with oral resonance. The resonance oral cavity is a myth which is easily dispensed. The pitch doesn't change unless the lips change, period. Regardless of what you do, or do not do, with the tongue.
When you said "this is a C" and then you produced a whistle. Do you not realize that your whistle is TWO OCTAVES higher than the note on the instrument you claim that "resonance" associates with?
The resonance of any significance is the instrument. Not the oral space.
The likelihood that a weak oral resonance frequency corresponding to the frequency of the fundamental of the pitch played is ZERO. Again the resonance modes in the oral tract are FAR higher in frequency than the pitch played. The oral resonance also further weakens as the space becomes less symmetrical as the tonge moves further into it.
The tongue also does not "compress" the air.
Hi Darryl -
Yes, I am aware the resonance of the whistle is in the double c range. I think shaping the resonance of the oral cavity can emphasize those upper harmonics that are present in all notes.
I do know that using this tongue level approach removes much of the strain from the lips. I would not disagree with you that the lips are also changing with the change of the tongue level, but it is not as much as when I pull the tongue back from behind the bottom teeth.
And while I think you may be right that the tongue doesn't compress the air, it definitely is adding resistance, which then creates compression as you release the air (aka you blow against the raised tongue/reduced oral cavity).
@@trumpetthoughts resistance by the tongue REDUCES the air pressure available to the aperture. It does not increase it. There is already MORE than enough resistance by the lip aperture and instrument tone such that the lung air pressure exists at the aperture. Narrowing the path before the aperture with a pronounced tongue arch does NOT further increase the air pressure that the lungs provide. It actually reduces the pressure of the air that reaches the aperture, requiring even more exhalation effort. That exhalation effort is ALWAYS the ONLY source of air pressure. (popularly referred to as "compression" )
Yes, moving the tongue is helpful for many players
and is related to embouchure muscle manipulations and embouchure posture. I do not discourage it. But It has nothing to do with the popular myths that attempt to give the tongue some direct causative credit for the pitch played by some "air speed" or "oral resonance". It's just popular verbiage that players hear and repeat.
@@darryljones9208 I'm reading what you are writing with an open mind, but it is just not lining up with my experience. I can definitely change pitch substantially without any noticeable embouchure change.
@Trumpet Thoughts I am kind with Daryl here. I ve been struggling to use my tongue as anchor to change pitch. It never works for me. Seems like aperture control and abdominal pressure helps with higher notes. My consistent limit Is up to high D and sometimes high E, my tongue shape ana anchor oesn't help me achieve those higher pitches at all. I am going to keep on trying 😓
@@da11king it's all deceptive. Every player that controls pitch does that by fine control of the lips.Some then deny it and say "it's ALL the tongue " then follow that with all sorts of bonus "sciencey" nonsense. They make videos and write books. It almost a religion of trumpet players. Usually "air- speed" or "oral resonance " or they say "it's the same as whistling " etc. ALWAYS discounting the lips or even completely denying that the lip aperture is the ultimate control. It's just something trumpet players do. They hear it and repeat it.
🤣 Another high note fix?!
The most important kind! 🤣
Der kann keinen normalen Ton blasen. Alles selbsternannte Experten. Der Ton macht die Musik. Siehe Maurice Andre James Morrison u. Viele andere
He’ll get there. As said in the video, he’s still experimenting. And there is no way Andre, Ferguson & Chase hit those very high notes just using embouchure & force. These guys, and many others, just never talked about it.
If Claude Gordon’s books were any good people like you wouldn’t have to waste your time putting up videos on RUclips. And even then you don’t seem to have achieved success. I bought them over 30 years ago when I was young and naive and I think they were counterproductive because despite my best efforts I made zero progress with my range. Time would have been much better spent on solving musical problems rather than feats of athleticism.
Yikes, man. Who hurt you?
I used to play the opposite way. I played professional trpt in L.A., Hollywood, Long Beach, some studio work, etc. back in the 70's - 90's and I would ANCHOR the tip of my tongue all the way down below the bottom of my lower teeth. When ascending I would open my jaw (lower it as in saying awe, much like Dave Stahl does) all the way to Triple 'C'.
Would you lower your jaw because your tongue was rising forward and kind of elongating in the front of your mouth? I could see that...