If you like this style of content, I have another video going over the full story of Fallout 1 in the same style 🙃 ruclips.net/video/D7g0F94nVcE/видео.html
What if Saint Monica took the name Monica? I heard it at least was once common practice for Catholics to choose a "Christian name" once they converted.
One of the creators of Fallout, Timothy Cain, has stated that he partially based the Brotherhood off of the Catholic monks in the book “A Canticle for Leibowitz”. If you haven’t read this book, I highly recommend it.
@jacobzanardi1930 another book they took inspiration from, specifically when it came to creating the Arroyo tribe and seeing how a post apocalyptic tribal societies would spring up, is called Earth Abides. It is also pretty good
Would be really cool to see a faction of Catholic missionaries from Rome arrive on the east coast only to find that all the american wastelanders are either children of Atom, Brotherhood or Protestants.
Have you ever played the after the end mods for Crusader kings 2 or 3? The mod is set in a post-apocalyptic America where we have reverted back to the medieval era. The mod has it’s own Catholic Church that established a new papacy based in Cincinnati due to lack of contact with Rome.
Man I hate that we’ll never get a character like Joshua graham again it’s just gonna be a bunch of guys that talk like they’re in a highschool production of grease
@@steverambo4692I'm currently developing a TTW glowing ghoul companion mod; got my friend with a deep mature smoker voice to do the voice work. He recites like Joshua but he is waaay more about vengeance. Currently stuck on a quest script that puts the character in jail like skyrim when you commit a crime in the underground. Edit: I gave up and started modding Arma 3. I might return to the project but I am having a hard time finding time.
@@dubuyajay9964 Maybe it’s me being a Papist but I love that novel. I came upon it by chance. The Church has endured even when she was strangled in her infancy under Roman persecution. She has seen the rise and fall of empires, the birth and disappearance of nations, and the full transformation of languages. What’s a couple atomic bombs but a hurdle?
"The Church was buried in the catacombs; she rose again with Constantine. She died in the Dark Ages; she rose again with Charlemagne. She died with the Renaissance; she rose again with the saints of the Counter-Reformation. You cannot kill the Catholic Church."
As a devout Catholic and an avid gamer, I thank you for this video. Fallout has a surprisingly positive depiction of Christianity given its otherwise latent cynicism on most human ideologies (and I especially applaud the series trashing cults like the Children of Atom in Megaton lol)... you can especially see this through Joshua Graham, who said, rather grimly, “Any society that derives it’s power and authority from the will of man alone lives apart from God and will crumble in the end.” We see how the Legion, who is the complete antithesis of his understanding of Christianity, is doomed. Without Caesar, the Legion will undoubtedly crumble, and so will its false, recreated cult of Mars. Caesar is mortal, and his focus on martial values and efficiency will not keep these men together once he's gone. Even NCR, though there's some vague mentioning of God and Christian principles in their documents, isn't shown favorably by Graham either, since its main focus is on material comfort. An understandable want given how awful the wasteland is, but ultimately, if Joshua is right... "Better to be clean than comfortable".
@Over-Lored I appreciate how you pointed out weird, either intentional or unintentional, inaccuracies in the various faith traditions, such as Graham potentially being Trinitarian despite being LDS, or Father Clifford's Saint Monica not being exactly like the real Saint Monica. Shows research and honor towards the different churches. Side note, Diego being called an "acolyte" and not a "seminarian" feels like they didn't want to be too on the nose with the Catholic aesthetic haha
@@ZachCarr1991 that does make sense but Mormons don't exactly believe the teachings of Jesus Christ and the way he's says and teaches is more non denominational
@@WelshflagBeareridk bout you but mormons seem to really like Christ and follow his teachings, and plus if you really look deep into their doctrines they'd seem non denominational because they dont believe it's the church that saves you, its just the church that holds the God given authority and keys to act in God's name
If Fallout's attention was to ever set in Europe, the changes to the Swiss Guard into a wasteland army, the rebirth of the Papal States and the reburth of the Knights Hospitaller would be almost mandatory. I mean, it is pretty certain that this things would happen
The Vatican for sure has locations and protocols in place for a worldwide nuclear emergency. You can count they would probably have wrote down the unbroken line of succession of popes from the bombing to the present.
The fact that there is a St. Monica, means that knowledge of her somehow made it across the Atlantic and all the way to Rome, where after years of consideration the Cardinals decided to start a canonization process which takes years really and eventually declare her a Saint
As an inquirer into the Orthodox Church I would love to see how it could’ve survived in America but because of our small population I feel an Alaskan Fallout would have to be the proper setting considering Sts. Herman and Innocent of Alaska
Orthodoxy especially western rite is growing so strongly in America, especially in Appalachia and the south so realistically there could be factions throughout the country
I do recall having been handed a copy of “Paradise Lost” by a character in Fallout 3. In the Underworld, iirc. This actually prompted me to find the epic poem IRL and, boy, is it EPIC.
@@user-Kova15 Is your sole purpose just to trash people for giving a factual account of something? He literally said: "...the word Bethesda is a pool in Biblical Jerusalem, believed to have healing powers." You felt it was necessary to make that comment. Do you feel you have to publicly slag off everything you personally don't believe in or understand? Are you afraid that if you miss an opportunity, people might think you're a religious nut? Whether or not the belief that the pool had healing properties is valid, your comment adds nothing to the discussion, and serves only to highlight your own bigotry and prejudice. That's a massive shame.
@@raphaelmerriman4901absolutely agree. I'm not religious myself but I still find it quite interesting, so I don't really understand what's the Deal with that Person. It's like saying the Sky is blue and then being called stupid for it. It was just a Fact about something, so acting like that is weird
@@Firestar-TV That's it exactly; it's interesting. My name, for example, means "God heals", or "healing of God". Presumably our culture-free friend would say "So your name is completely nonsensical, then!" Because it's important to him to say so, for reasons only he will ever understand...
Crazy how a dlc (which is also probably the weakest of the four) created two of the best characters in the entire franchise, with one being dead for decades. Right up there with Marcus and the Master in terms of writing.
Off topic but i noticed that Christianity has been almost entirely removed from Fallout. Fallout 4 and 76 made absolutely zero references as far as I've seen. I understand that not everyone believes in this stuff but it's been part of the series' theme since the beginning. Thankfully the Fallout show seems to have brought this back.
Fallout 4 and especially 76 had a fair amount of references. Especially 76 with the ideas of the Moth-man Cult arising out of southern Baptist groups. However there wasn't much more I could illuminate about it to dedicate a portion of the video on.
There is also the 76 character Rev. Delbert Winters, who after the bombs dropped, questioned his faith and why he wasn't raptured with the others. After the responders came to flatwoods he gave his church to them so they could establish an outpost and volunteered with the group, devoting himself to cooking for the survivors, running the book club where he talked about the Bible and god, and also held nightly survivor's guilt meetings. You also learn quite a bit from his notes, like how to make things into soup and other recipes and survival tips.
@@darkmagician2904 Its sad how in the fallout universe the most polite and helpful people are destroyed. I guess it's realistic. I'm sure a lot of evil people and hostile groups would act as if they're wounded or surviving in order to get supplies or even take over an area.
@marcfilms999 ya, vault 94 from fallout 76 is a great example of that. All they wanted was to help people in the wasteland, but the people they were trying to help were too suspicious of them. Just because they were pacifist and helping everyone.
Great video! One correction though is that the New Canaanites aren’t trinitarian, when Daniel refers to the father, son, and holy spirit he’s referring to the Mormon context of the godhead.
This is absolutely correct; mainstream Christianity acknowledges the Trinity, which is three persons in the one Godhead, (in layman's terms, the Father is God, Jesus is God, and the Holy Spirit is God), while the pseudo-Christian organisations (Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Scientists, etc) consider each one an unrelated entity (The Father is God, Jesus is not, and the Holy Spirit is lucky to even be mentioned). From a non-christian perspective, this may feel like splitting hairs, but as the Trinity is a central tenet of the Christian faith, it's often the point on which we can determine whether a faith or belief system is Christian, or simply pretending to be (this isn't a judgment on true believers within those religions, but an observation on the origin of the them, especially when you examine the possible motivations of the founders).
@raphaelmerriman4901The “Mormons”aren’t Unitarian like many of the other non trinitarian groups like JW’s. We believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are completely distinct in the full modern sense of the word, but are one in thought, purpose, and will, kind of like a hive mind in a sense with independent wills within the hivemind, if that helps you understand it better. Furthermore, in the LDS view we believe that all spirits eternally pre-existed, and that the Father gave our intelligences spirit bodies, and then physical ones as part of the Plan of Salvation. Thus we do not believe like some folks claim that Jesus was a “created being”, and furthermore we reject creation from nothing, instead we hold to the belief of Creatio Ex Matera.
@@savsmaster4183 Thank you for taking the time to explain this. While you and I have different beliefs about the identity of Jesus (among other things), I'm aware this is a discussion of Christianity in Fallout, and not a theological debate, so I hope my original comment wasn't mistaken for fighting talk, although it may have been somewhat clumsy, for which I apologise. On something of a tangent, the LDS movement figures prominently in The Expanse, and is even a significant plot point at one stage. That was the first time I recall seeing a specific real-world faith treated with something approaching genuine respect (they also presented a Methodist pastor in the same way).
As a Christian myself I appreciate the discussion about Jesus in media it’s nice to see non believers or maybe believers portray the Gospel in an accurate manner in any media thanks for the video may God bless you all
Yes, something I discuss with one of my friends (who is a Catholic priest) is that one of the best things that can be done for Christianity is its mere exposure in media. It is okay to depict the faults in the behavior of Christians, it is okay to portray Christians and the faith as good, but the current status quo is that any depiction at all is seen as taboo. Any portrayal that is not libel, slander, or bigotry should be accepted. There should be more depictions of the faith in media, though it cannot be steeped in proselytizing or else you end up coming off as overbearing and preachy like most Christian media, which makes for a boring watch or in the case of video games, boring play. Christianity is strong enough to be tested in media without resorting to the assumption that all atheists were abused as children or are just rude cynics. When you are trying to preach to atheists, you do not tell them they must convert, you must instead show them why they should.
Dunno if you're religious or not, but as a very faithful Catholic, thank you for being extremely in depth and respectful. Great vid, you have to do more videos like this on various historic topics!
Thank you for the kind words. I will be making more of this style of videos though perhaps not so focused on religion but other historical concepts as well. :)
For any readers out there I definitely gotta recommend the fanfiction story called "Paul's Letter to Rome" for a nice author's take on New Canann. The author's not done but it's a pretty great story so far.
The opening monologue is one of the best things to happen to Christianity for a while imo. It reignited the passion in many young Christian’s who played NV and maybe those who didn’t believe and now do. *Christ is Lord*
Aa an Orthodox myself I'd be interested in seeing how the Ortodox church is doing. It wouldn't suprise me to see missionaries from the various monasteries traveling up and down the Pacific coast in the NCR.
Hello there, fellow Orthodox Christian ☦️. I'm not a fan of the fallout series (no hate, just not my thing) but I clicked on this video, solely because of the icon of Christ on the thumbnail. Cheers 👍
One note I would suggest on your two options for Saint Monica - I think there is a third potential option. Rather than their memory of Saint Monica having been simply forgotten or corrupted, or that Saint Monica is just someone else - I think it very likely that the changing of her life story may have been an active choice by the post-war clergy to adapt her story to give it continuing relevance in a post-war world. The birth of two ghouls suggests the notion of miracle birth - which is central to Christian theology, and the other elements can make St Monica's life relatable in a way the pre-war world, even the medieval world is not. Still a corruption in a sense - but a willing one, done for a purpose.
I had the same idea when I was listening to the sermon. While it's common for aspects of pre-war culture and history to be distorted through the loss of knowledge and records, such as the Capital Preservation Society's distorted retelling of American history, it's even more interesting to see how the fragments and ideas of the past are re-contextualized and adapted to fit contemporary problems. For example, the Kings gang in Freeside emerged not only because a pair of guys found a bunch of Elvis recordings and memorabilia but also because they sought to bring a sense of stability and community to the slums outside of the New Vegas Strip. The King's ideology, which is centered around the belief that "every man is a king in his own right," emphasizes not only their opposition to Mr. House's and the NCR's heavy handed governance but also a general respect for your fellow man. Of course, all of this is wrapped up in the self-confidence of an Elvis impersonator but that only enhances the effect, giving the gang's members the confidence to stand up to entities vastly more powerful than them.
The founder of Shady Sands and the NCR was an adherent of a Dharmic religion, possibly Hinduism? I think Tim Cain was inspired by Mahatma Gandhi when he created President Aradesh.
Saint Monica coming from Great Lanta makes me wonder if Atlanta as a whole is considered a sort of holy land for post-apocalyptic Catholics. Just for my own pen and paper Fallout campaign, I'm imagining the CDC being the "Holy See" (or Holy C), with its own set of popes and cardinals!
Kind of ironic considering how evangelical Atlanta and the region around it is. There could be a whole mini Israel vs Palestine situation there where Catholics see Atlanta as a holy place, while it’s populated by mostly Protestants.
@6:41 Point Lookout and Far Harbor were the best dlc's Bethesda every made imo. I wish they would just embrace the setting and give us a Fallout Louisiana already
“The light shineth in the darkness and the darkness did not comprehend it.” Maybe the significance of this to Graham is that when he was set on fire by the Legion, and he miraculously survived going on to forever haunt legionaries’ dreams, the light of the Holy Spirit shined on the dark forces of Caesar and they were left so bewildered and terrified that even mentioning Joshua’s name warrants an instant death sentence.
I’m hoping that a future Fallout game can take influence from the book of Judges. Where the player character acts like the last of the Judges and helps to choose the next ruler of the wasteland like how Judges leads into Samuel and Kings.“In those days there was no order in the wasteland, everyone did what was right in their own eyes.” But first I hope Bethesda gets their shit together.
There's a really fun mod for Hearts of Iron 4 called Old World Blues which contains multiple fan made, but rather high quality playable Christian factions. For those who enjoy strategy sim games I'd highly recommend checking it out.
The Brotherhood of Steel seems to be heavily influenced by the Catholics in the book A Canticle for Leibowitz. A group of Catholic monks that are set on finding and preserving pre-war knowledge and keeping it safe from the people trying to destroy it.
Further linking them, the brotherhood of steel was originally inspired by the order of Leibowitz from the novel a canticle for leibowitz. An order based heavily on catholic monks living in the post apocalypse dedicated to preserving humanities scientific knowledge
Normally really cautious about Christianity in games (because things depicting God could easily step over into being blasphemous etc) but the beginning narration and how you discussed it was really interesting and well done. Great vid! (For context, I have only played a little of one of these games so I have almost no context lol)
Accurate in the way it removes agency from the seemingly indigenous population through 2 civilized saviour figures and bastardizes our Navajo language. Even the game's lead designer, JSawyer regrets the entire DLC falling into negative tropes and the use of indigenous languages, he also wishes they had hired indigenous consultants to do a once-over on the DlLC.
@@CastleAliens That changes nothing. JSawyer still has some amount of regret over the project and acknowledges that the DLC's story cleaved a little too close to its source material (Lawrence of Arabia and The Mission), he also acknowledged that the tribes are not given enough agency in the story and look up to two "civilized" savior figures, and suggests it probably would have been a good idea to bring in Indigenous consultants from the American Southwest to make sure they weren't falling into negative tropes. He also acknowledges that the naming of characters, and more importantly the languages, should have been given a second pass. Still think I'm reading to deep into something shallow? If anything, the amount of thought put into it by the developers is shallow. Clearly they you never bothered to understand how well we Diné protect our language. Like, did everyone in this country just up and forget we were code-talkers? Our language is our greatest asset. Even info available online about our language is sparse and what info is there, is always incorrect and incomplete. Even when our language is spoken in media (I.e. MGSV) it's incorrect. Not sure how much time you've spent on a rez or around natives, but we're usually not that inclined to share our language with outsiders, and we're even less inclined to teach them Josh Sawyer's Germanophile conquest of the Navajo is one of the worst parts of the Honest Hearts DLC. The notion that we Navajo, a people with a strong cultural/ethnic identity and oral tradition who managed to survive the war would see our language and culture subsumed by the German of a few tourists we deigned to shelter is just maddening to me as a Navajo and it hearkens back to my experiences in boarding school. Though almost certainly unintentional, there is a very Euro-centric, colonial "white man's burden" sort of mindset baked into the idea that us Navajos could be so incompetent and so fragile in our cultural identity that we'd need German tourists to guide us through the new post-nuclear world Today we number around 400,000 and about 100,000 of our tribal members speak Diné bizaad; we're one of, if not the largest extant indigenous societies left in North America. Despite the US government and BIA actively trying to destroy our cultural identity, language, etc. for over a century, we've survived with far more intact than most indigenous peoples can say for themselves. The notion that we Navajo, of all people, would forget ourselves when Bostonians are running around dressed like colonial militia and the Brotherhood of Steel are, in House's words, "gallivanting around the Mojave like knights of yore," despite being less connected to those histories and cultures than we Navajo people are to our own culture and language, carries a shitload of racist baggage and it leaves a sick taste in my mouth.
@@CastleAliens That changes nothing, bud. JSawyer has personally expressed some amount of regret over the project and acknowledges that the DLC's story cleaved a little too close to its source material (Lawrence of Arabia and The Mission), he also acknowledged that the tribes are not given enough agency in the story and look up to two "civilized" savior figures, and suggests it probably would have been a good idea to bring in Indigenous consultants from the American Southwest to make sure they weren't falling into negative tropes. He also acknowledges that the naming of characters, and more importantly the languages, should have been given a second pass. Joshua Graham isn't looking good from a Native American perspective and neither is the entire Honest Hearts DLC, but that doesn't matter to people who like him and it especially doesn't matter to the people like you who subscribe to mormonism and you people will disregard any legitmate and real criticism because you don't want to hear it and just like Joshua, you'd prefer for us to have zero agency and zero voice in the matter. Josh Sawyer's Germanophile conquest of the Navajo is one of the worst parts of the Honest Hearts DLC. The notion that we Navajo, a people with a strong cultural/ethnic identity and oral tradition who managed to survive the war would see our language and culture subsumed by the German of a few tourists we deigned to shelter is just maddening to me as a Navajo and it hearkens back to my experiences in boarding school. Though almost certainly unintentional, there is a very Euro-centric, colonial "white man's burden" sort of mindset baked into the idea that us Navajos could be so incompetent and so fragile in our cultural identity that we'd need German tourists to guide us through the new post-nuclear world Today we Dinè number around 400,000 and about 100,000 of our tribal members speak Diné bizaad; we're one of, if not the largest extant indigenous societies left in North America. Despite the US government and BIA actively trying to destroy our cultural identity, language, etc. for over a century, we've survived with far more intact than most indigenous peoples can say for themselves. The notion that we Navajo, of all people, would forget ourselves when Bostonians are running around dressed like colonial militia and the Brotherhood of Steel are, in House's words, "gallivanting around the Mojave like knights of yore," despite being less connected to those histories and cultures than we Navajo people are to our own culture and language, carries a shitload of racist baggage and it leaves a sick taste in my mouth. Even Josh Sawyer himself regrets the DLC and use of indigenous languages in Honest Hearts and Joshua Graham and Daniel's white savior roles, but people don't want to hear that and will gladly disregard the words coming from the games lead director. The dissonance to keep people from criticizing their beloved IP is very real with New Vegas fans. I should clarify I'm also a fan of the game, despite my problems with it and I have over 3,000 hours in game on steam. Still think I'm reading to deep into something shallow? If anything, the amount of thought put into it by the developers is shallow. Clearly they you never bothered to understand how well we Dine protect our language or our bitter history with such religions and your "missionaries". Like, did everyone in this country just up and forget we were code-talkers? Our language is our greatest asset. Even info available online about our language is sparse and what info is there, is always incorrect and incomplete. Even when our language is spoken in media (I.e. MGSV) it's incorrect. Not sure how much time you've spent on a rez or around natives, but we're usually not that inclined to share our language with outsiders, and we're even less inclined to teach them Hell, the one trope that the base game of New Vegas most strongly plays into is the narrative of the "vanishing Indian". Yet I rarely see that discussed, and when it is, people are just okay with the outright erasure of our presence or lack thereof. Like, for a place named after the Mojave people, they're quite literally nowhere to be found, on top of that there's literally zero Indigenous iconography. In reality, if you traveled anywhere in the Southwest US, it's the exact opposite. Our presence is very hard to ignore. Every gas station has signs telling us we can use our tribal cards as ID instead of state issued ID. It's pretty fucking ironic that we were erased from the land in reality and now we're being erased from the land even in media. So funny it hurts.
Not really it's not a good interpretation of actual Mormons and their culture and their beliefs considering the Mormons in the Fallout Universe are very different to the way Mormons actually exist in real life considering they deny the Trinity by Joshua Graham does affirm the trinity
I've been working on building a potential tabletop campaign surrounding Texas in the aftermath of Fallout New Vegas. In it, there's a leader of the Eastern Legion who adheres to Catholicism alongside a Super Mutant Bishop who has a cool backstory being an unwilling part of the Master's Army and regaining his free will after the Master's death. This Eastern Legion has adopted a more late Roman culture, having a Christian leadership over a population comprised of various peoples, even some who still worship Caesar as the son of Mars who ascended to godhood at Hoover Dam. Their conflict centers around fending off an ascendant Lone Star Republic, hostile Texas BoS, and the Legion of the Beast that's arisen south of the Rio Grande. Climax of the campaign is at the Alamo, of course.
Good video. Enjoyed it very much. I just found your channel due to it. If you don't have one already, a video on the multiple cults found through the wasteland would be interesting. Treeminders to the Chucrch of Atom and all the others.
I would disagree that New Canaanites became more Protestant as the years went by. How LDS people talk about the concept of the Trinity is kind of nuanced, and while English speakers usually call it the Godhead, in other languages like Spanish this is not the case. Spanish speaking LDS say Trinidad, which literally translates to trinity. They still mean the same thing when they use these different words. Joshua Graham and Daniel are interesting characters to me for lots of reasons, as they represent different ideals within Christianity, which is obviously what the writers were going for. They deemphasized the more unique aspects of Mormonism because they just wanted to talk about Christianity and religion at a broader level, but I don’t think that means that New Canaanites have abandoned their traditions as much as you speculate. So why make them Mormons at all? Probably because Las Vegas was largely founded by Mormons and Utah is pretty close, plus the idea of Mormons surviving the destruction of civilization is on brand since we have a reputation for being preppers.
@@maxopaladino have you got a counter argument? What do you think the definition of faith is? This is copied from the Oxford English Dictionary ‘strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.’
@@flynnmiddleton7102 Answer me, why should I argue with you about my beliefs if in the end you will just disagree with everything I say anyway? I will, yet, continue hanging on my Lord Jesus Christ, the King of Salvation and Mercy, and I wish he blesses you. Even though you might hate Him and His Truth.
In the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints(Mormonism) we mention a lot the triad of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, but that doesn’t mean we’re referring to a trinitarian understanding, so this could be the case with Daniel in Honest Hearts, and what is taught by the New Canaanites in Honest Hearts isn’t contradictory to what is taught within the Church.
The word “triad” is the word in Greek Christian theology for the Trinity. Christian theology historically was done first/in the East in Greek, and then/in the West in Latin. Our English word _Trinity_ comes from the Latin _trinitas_ The Greek equivalent is _triad_ or more precisely _triada_ Thus it doesn’t make sense-especially to a Christian like me, in the Greek tradition-to say “I accept the Godhead as a triad, but not the Trinity.
@justicebjorke2790 You completely missed the point I was making, in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints we baptize people in the name of The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but that does not mean we are doing so from a trinitarian understanding, and thus just because Daniel or Graham are making similar statements in forms of 3 does not mean they accept the Trinity as understood by the Christian world.
Angels are messengers of God. Specifically in Fallout New Vegas, the Courier is a messenger, the message and where it is from depends on the player. It is curious that the most couriers in the game are dead or almost dead.
joshua was the name of the one who led hebrews into promised land called canaan after moises died on the mountain nebo in moab land before reaching canaan, I doubt the reference is accidental also the name is the hebrew version of jesus
Here i remember "Maria", the unique 9 mm Pistol with a high crit chance, which the players gets shot with at the beginning of "Fallout New Vegas" and can later aquire after dealing with Benny. There is GRA DLC challenge for killing ghuls with holy weapons like this. With the "Wild Wasteland" Perk you could get Holy Hand Grenades, a reference to Monty Python.
The Mormon religion is quite different from any form of Christianity. Aesthetically it’s very similar, culturally too. But their beliefs diverge significantly. I’m not sure how connected to Mormonism the game said it was, but in the modern day Utah is diversifying when it comes to religion. Utah was once 100% Mormon, today it’s only 45%, with Christian sects of Protestantism and Catholicism combined now make up over a quarter of the population. And the rest mainly being non religious. It is possible this religious diversity (and the likely destruction of the larger religious institutions) caused followers of these sects to attempt to rebuild without the same institutional schisms, so there’s no way of knowing how Christian vs how Mormon it may be, but embracing the Trinity is a sign that the beliefs of Mormonism were likely suppressed to encourage ideological and theological unity under biblical principles.
I feel like fallout should have a focus on faith. Not just the children of Atom cuz I feel like they’re played off like a joke or loons. But both post religions and prewar. Imagine if in the next Fallout game we meet a tribe of Jews or meet a prewar ghoul Muslim. In the wasteland I think with how hard life is. It’s not entirely possible go to religion for both answers to the world and meaning.
In the fallout show, Vault 33 also has some kind of minister who officiates Lucy's wedding, though he later is killed by the raiders. Fallout 2 also had a cut abbey, based on the book canticle for leibowitz.
The gun is named "the light shining in the darkness", the darkness represents his enemies. The gun blazes over them and they die in incomprehension because they don't have faith in Jesus who said "I Am The Light of the World"
I really enjoy these aspects of Fallout. Like even in an alternate universe the inclusion of religion is really interesting. Like as minor as it is in Fallout 3 I did really like Father Clifford and the fact he is mentioned by Marcella in Point Lookout and her own mission and stuff. And of course Joshua Graham needs no explanation with how epic he is but also Daniel sticking with his own ideals.
If such a small sect of Christianity like Mormons have survived at 200 years in the Wasteland there is no doubt in my mind that other Christian sects have survived like Catholicism Orthodoxy and Protestants it's probably just that we don't see them in game. Because one Bethesda doesn't really care about adding to the lore that much. And I think they just don't want to accidentally disrespect Christians because we are the main religious group today. But it would be cool if we ever got a game and let's say grease or Russia or we could see how the Orthodox Church is doing after the bombs dropped especially would be cool to see Mount Athos in the Fallout world considering it's a giant Island full of monks I would love to see how they have adapted to the Fallout world. But as a Orthodox Christian I would love to see Orthodoxy represented in more media. Especially in video games. It strikes me as very odd that the stalker franchise Never Dies into Russian Orthodoxy. Is it Orthodoxy is the biggest thing in Russia it's the biggest religion that is practiced survived more persecution than probably any other religious group in the world especially during Stalin's era and even now is being persecuted pretty badly by the Ukrainian government One more note Catholicism has over a billion members of worldwide as of this day and age I'm surprised we don't see more Catholics in the Fallout World especially in New Vegas because South Americans love themselves to some Catholicism
Well technically their beliefs shifted to not be stricly mormon but rather generalized protestant which makes sense as in a post apocalypse there would be less people to form various groups that disagree with each other I agree it would be cool to see how orthodox church handled it but itd be interesting to see russia in a fallout game in general
It's not official canon, but in Fallout: London the Catholic Church survived the bombs. You can visit St. Paul's Cathedral, which now provides shelter and community to the displaced and needy in London. The cardinal that administers to the church is a ghoul from the day the bombs fell.
I always wanted a knights templar style faction. Where they wear old knights armor they found and use a mix of swords, bows and some types of guns. I recently became Christian again. Trauma made me atheist for a long time. Over the years I've slowly changed. Went from atheist at 20, agnostic at 22, a religion theorist at 25 and now a Christian at 28. My mom is catholic. From what I studied of catholicism it seems like the branch I like the most. I don't think I will ever belong to a specific church but follow the teachings of the bible as well as parts of the church itself.
The difference between the Catholic church and the Orthodox Christian church is that the latter refused to make any changes (keep up with the times) as time went on- as it believes that since The Lord is unchanging, so too is the way to praise and follow Him. So who knows, u might find it even more agreeable than the one u currently like best...
@@l.t.6549 I've looked into orthodoxy. Its certainly something I'm interested in also. I of course don't agree with everything the catholic faith teaches or does. Not sure if you know this youtuber, but Andrew Wilson has made orthodoxy sounds more in tune to what I believe in as well from a political side.
Its also important to note that History itself is repeating in fallout with the roman empire once again coming into being with Cesars legion. The purpose of showing the Christian faith in the series is to reflect our real world History, it being a force for civilisation.Many people believe all Religions are mostly the same but this is false. It makes a big difference if the god you believe in tells you to love the Person next to you as much as yourself or if his name is immortan joe
If I were to hazard a guess as to religious demographics of the NCR, I suspect the three most prominent religions would be Christianity, Dharma (as practiced by Aradesh), and Hubology (as seen in Fallout 2).
talking about roman empire we have that quirky faction in new vegas called caesar's legion that trying to immitate the ancient civilisation, and on the other side ncr who are struggling to stop them in taking over their land (like jews against romans in the jesus' time), in the same time we have bos hiding in the bunker like early christians in post jesus time, quite intriguing if you focus on deeper meaning
There are churches in fallout, if you look around the churches there are little clues about Christianity, like a note saying "just lie" or a collection of dead children hidden in the attic.
The suvivor of the bombs, those who saw the bomb drop would keep the fate until the next generations would turn into paigan religions or maybe does who saw the bombs drop would keep the fate and teach the next generations and pass them the torch.
If a Fallout game in Europe happened, probably around in Italy or France, Christianity is very pronounced on those areas, as in France, during the dark age, the last knights of thr Templars was wiped out alongside it's Grandmaster De Molay, and this was portrayed in the starting scene of Assassin's Creed Unity. And the M1911 and the Browning Hi Power maker, John Browning from what I've heard is a mormon or a Christian based on what i heard.
The templars were partly wiped out, and partly exiled from France into England by christians because they, after having spent time in the desert as crusaders, had secretly turned to the Cabala- which included practices such as ritualistically "relieving themselves" on the Cross (as an initiation ritual), ritualistic s0d0my, truly evil rituals involving children, etc... And were also quickly taking control of Europe's then banking system- having become so powerful in this regard, that even kings would borrow money from them, this control being pursued literally with world dominion as its goal. The Knights Templar were what is now called Freemasonry.
The templars were partly wiped out, and partly exiled from France into England by christians because they, after having spent time in the desert as crusaders, had secretly turned to the Cabala- which included practices such as ritualistically "relieving themselves" on the Cross (as an initiation ritual), ritualistic s0d0my, truly evil rituals involving children, etc... And were also quickly taking control of Europe's then banking system- having become so powerful in this regard, that even kings would borrow money from them, this control being pursued literally with world dominion as its goal. The Knights Templar were what is now called Freemasonry.
See, the religious stuff only really happens from 3 onwards. The earlier games are very clear about having other religions. If you want an interesting comparison, go look at the first 5 games. Hubology, Dharma, Plutonius, etc. Christianity is a very Bethesda era only thing.
If you like this style of content, I have another video going over the full story of Fallout 1 in the same style 🙃
ruclips.net/video/D7g0F94nVcE/видео.html
You did so well 👏 Bravo !!
You say Christianity but you show a pagan picture? I guess you aren't that smart huh?
What if Saint Monica took the name Monica? I heard it at least was once common practice for Catholics to choose a "Christian name" once they converted.
As a Catholic myself it was quite interesting to see the Catholic symbolism that you pointed out in the BoS that I hadn't even noticed before
One of the creators of Fallout, Timothy Cain, has stated that he partially based the Brotherhood off of the Catholic monks in the book “A Canticle for Leibowitz”. If you haven’t read this book, I highly recommend it.
@jacobzanardi1930 another book they took inspiration from, specifically when it came to creating the Arroyo tribe and seeing how a post apocalyptic tribal societies would spring up, is called Earth Abides. It is also pretty good
Would be really cool to see a faction of Catholic missionaries from Rome arrive on the east coast only to find that all the american wastelanders are either children of Atom, Brotherhood or Protestants.
Last time they came they found people sacrificing children on pyramids so, it’s progress
There could be a ghoul Bishop who lived pre-war that helped to continue Apostolic Succession after the war. The lore potential is insane.
Have you ever played the after the end mods for Crusader kings 2 or 3? The mod is set in a post-apocalyptic America where we have reverted back to the medieval era. The mod has it’s own Catholic Church that established a new papacy based in Cincinnati due to lack of contact with Rome.
Even though I will never be a Catholic it would be pretty cool to have a Catholic faction
*orthodox
Man I hate that we’ll never get a character like Joshua graham again it’s just gonna be a bunch of guys that talk like they’re in a highschool production of grease
You could just…yk…read the Bible…trust me bro you will learn of alot of people like Joshua in that book especially Psalms or even THE BOOK OF JOSHUA 🙏
@@JALENACE I meant more in the sense of deep character development & writing
@@steverambo4692I'm currently developing a TTW glowing ghoul companion mod; got my friend with a deep mature smoker voice to do the voice work. He recites like Joshua but he is waaay more about vengeance. Currently stuck on a quest script that puts the character in jail like skyrim when you commit a crime in the underground.
Edit: I gave up and started modding Arma 3. I might return to the project but I am having a hard time finding time.
@@Leboobs22 that sounds really cool man, good luck :)
@@Leboobs22when u finish can u comment the mod name?
The Catholic Church survived one dark age. It wouldn’t surprise me if they survived another.
"A Canticle For Leibowitz."
Imagine the pope turned into a ghoul, that would suck for all the sages that are suppose to choose the next one lol
@@dubuyajay9964 Maybe it’s me being a Papist but I love that novel. I came upon it by chance.
The Church has endured even when she was strangled in her infancy under Roman persecution. She has seen the rise and fall of empires, the birth and disappearance of nations, and the full transformation of languages. What’s a couple atomic bombs but a hurdle?
"The Church was buried in the catacombs; she rose again with Constantine. She died in the Dark Ages; she rose again with Charlemagne. She died with the Renaissance; she rose again with the saints of the Counter-Reformation. You cannot kill the Catholic Church."
They caused the dark age.
As a devout Catholic and an avid gamer, I thank you for this video. Fallout has a surprisingly positive depiction of Christianity given its otherwise latent cynicism on most human ideologies (and I especially applaud the series trashing cults like the Children of Atom in Megaton lol)... you can especially see this through Joshua Graham, who said, rather grimly, “Any society that derives it’s power and authority from the will of man alone lives apart from God and will crumble in the end.”
We see how the Legion, who is the complete antithesis of his understanding of Christianity, is doomed. Without Caesar, the Legion will undoubtedly crumble, and so will its false, recreated cult of Mars. Caesar is mortal, and his focus on martial values and efficiency will not keep these men together once he's gone. Even NCR, though there's some vague mentioning of God and Christian principles in their documents, isn't shown favorably by Graham either, since its main focus is on material comfort. An understandable want given how awful the wasteland is, but ultimately, if Joshua is right...
"Better to be clean than comfortable".
I'm glad I could do these concepts justice :)
Christ be with you brother
@Over-Lored I appreciate how you pointed out weird, either intentional or unintentional, inaccuracies in the various faith traditions, such as Graham potentially being Trinitarian despite being LDS, or Father Clifford's Saint Monica not being exactly like the real Saint Monica. Shows research and honor towards the different churches.
Side note, Diego being called an "acolyte" and not a "seminarian" feels like they didn't want to be too on the nose with the Catholic aesthetic haha
Same here bro, took the words right out of my mouth
Mormon is technically speaking not Christian or Hebrew but a odd mix of both
New vegas writing is so good, that they made a mormon character into a role model
He should have been protestant or Catholic or orthodox but Mormon come on
@@WelshflagBearer To be fair with as little communication between large distances as there is Mormonism can be seen as more reasonable
@@WelshflagBearer He is in Utah after all
@@ZachCarr1991 that does make sense but Mormons don't exactly believe the teachings of Jesus Christ and the way he's says and teaches is more non denominational
@@WelshflagBeareridk bout you but mormons seem to really like Christ and follow his teachings, and plus if you really look deep into their doctrines they'd seem non denominational because they dont believe it's the church that saves you, its just the church that holds the God given authority and keys to act in God's name
If Fallout's attention was to ever set in Europe, the changes to the Swiss Guard into a wasteland army, the rebirth of the Papal States and the reburth of the Knights Hospitaller would be almost mandatory. I mean, it is pretty certain that this things would happen
The Vatican for sure has locations and protocols in place for a worldwide nuclear emergency. You can count they would probably have wrote down the unbroken line of succession of popes from the bombing to the present.
There would also be many muslim factions if they decided today's migrant crisis was canon
@@TheWizard-zc1tv oh, absolutely. Morocco and Algeria would absolutely become sultanates and quite possibly expand again
@@TheWizard-zc1tv Not canon, Europe United and fought the arabs for Resources and won before being blown up by The Bombs.
@@yazovgaming Based
The fact that there is a St. Monica, means that knowledge of her somehow made it across the Atlantic and all the way to Rome, where after years of consideration the Cardinals decided to start a canonization process which takes years really and eventually declare her a Saint
As an inquirer into the Orthodox Church I would love to see how it could’ve survived in America but because of our small population I feel an Alaskan Fallout would have to be the proper setting considering Sts. Herman and Innocent of Alaska
Yo same. I just don't believe bethesda will care enough to make it survive though.
Considering the lore around Alaska in fallout, it would be a really interesting setting, plus having an Orthodox faction would make it even better
Orthodoxy especially western rite is growing so strongly in America, especially in Appalachia and the south so realistically there could be factions throughout the country
This videos give me hardcore shoddycast storyteller vibes
Ah, good times.
Damn, that brings me back
R.I.P.
I do recall having been handed a copy of “Paradise Lost” by a character in Fallout 3. In the Underworld, iirc. This actually prompted me to find the epic poem IRL and, boy, is it EPIC.
A Canticle for Leibowitz always reminded me of Fallout. It is probably my favorite example of post nuclear Christianity
Not to mention that the word Bethesda is a pool in Biblical Jerusalem, believed to have healing powers.
So completely nonsensical then
@@user-Kova15 Is your sole purpose just to trash people for giving a factual account of something?
He literally said: "...the word Bethesda is a pool in Biblical Jerusalem, believed to have healing powers."
You felt it was necessary to make that comment.
Do you feel you have to publicly slag off everything you personally don't believe in or understand? Are you afraid that if you miss an opportunity, people might think you're a religious nut?
Whether or not the belief that the pool had healing properties is valid, your comment adds nothing to the discussion, and serves only to highlight your own bigotry and prejudice.
That's a massive shame.
The healing powers were pagan nonsense, the truth was in Jesus who himself healed a paralyzed man at the pool, God bless you all
@@raphaelmerriman4901absolutely agree. I'm not religious myself but I still find it quite interesting, so I don't really understand what's the Deal with that Person.
It's like saying the Sky is blue and then being called stupid for it. It was just a Fact about something, so acting like that is weird
@@Firestar-TV That's it exactly; it's interesting.
My name, for example, means "God heals", or "healing of God".
Presumably our culture-free friend would say "So your name is completely nonsensical, then!"
Because it's important to him to say so, for reasons only he will ever understand...
I love being a Christian.
But you’re a Hateful Psycho 😳
Joshua Graham, best NPC in FNV.
Crazy how a dlc (which is also probably the weakest of the four) created two of the best characters in the entire franchise, with one being dead for decades. Right up there with Marcus and the Master in terms of writing.
Close between him and Ulysses for me
Off topic but i noticed that Christianity has been almost entirely removed from Fallout. Fallout 4 and 76 made absolutely zero references as far as I've seen. I understand that not everyone believes in this stuff but it's been part of the series' theme since the beginning. Thankfully the Fallout show seems to have brought this back.
Fallout 4 and especially 76 had a fair amount of references. Especially 76 with the ideas of the Moth-man Cult arising out of southern Baptist groups. However there wasn't much more I could illuminate about it to dedicate a portion of the video on.
Several NPCs mention God in 76. A lot mention of how God could let this happen, some think its a punishment, some pray that they'd be safe and so on.
There is also the 76 character
Rev. Delbert Winters, who after the bombs dropped, questioned his faith and why he wasn't raptured with the others. After the responders came to flatwoods he gave his church to them so they could establish an outpost and volunteered with the group, devoting himself to cooking for the survivors, running the book club where he talked about the Bible and god, and also held nightly survivor's guilt meetings. You also learn quite a bit from his notes, like how to make things into soup and other recipes and survival tips.
@@darkmagician2904 Its sad how in the fallout universe the most polite and helpful people are destroyed. I guess it's realistic. I'm sure a lot of evil people and hostile groups would act as if they're wounded or surviving in order to get supplies or even take over an area.
@marcfilms999 ya, vault 94 from fallout 76 is a great example of that. All they wanted was to help people in the wasteland, but the people they were trying to help were too suspicious of them. Just because they were pacifist and helping everyone.
Great video! One correction though is that the New Canaanites aren’t trinitarian, when Daniel refers to the father, son, and holy spirit he’s referring to the Mormon context of the godhead.
Thanks for pointing that out!
This is absolutely correct; mainstream Christianity acknowledges the Trinity, which is three persons in the one Godhead, (in layman's terms, the Father is God, Jesus is God, and the Holy Spirit is God), while the pseudo-Christian organisations (Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Scientists, etc) consider each one an unrelated entity (The Father is God, Jesus is not, and the Holy Spirit is lucky to even be mentioned).
From a non-christian perspective, this may feel like splitting hairs, but as the Trinity is a central tenet of the Christian faith, it's often the point on which we can determine whether a faith or belief system is Christian, or simply pretending to be (this isn't a judgment on true believers within those religions, but an observation on the origin of the them, especially when you examine the possible motivations of the founders).
@raphaelmerriman4901The “Mormons”aren’t Unitarian like many of the other non trinitarian groups like JW’s. We believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are completely distinct in the full modern sense of the word, but are one in thought, purpose, and will, kind of like a hive mind in a sense with independent wills within the hivemind, if that helps you understand it better. Furthermore, in the LDS view we believe that all spirits eternally pre-existed, and that the Father gave our intelligences spirit bodies, and then physical ones as part of the Plan of Salvation. Thus we do not believe like some folks claim that Jesus was a “created being”, and furthermore we reject creation from nothing, instead we hold to the belief of Creatio Ex Matera.
@@savsmaster4183 Thank you for taking the time to explain this. While you and I have different beliefs about the identity of Jesus (among other things), I'm aware this is a discussion of Christianity in Fallout, and not a theological debate, so I hope my original comment wasn't mistaken for fighting talk, although it may have been somewhat clumsy, for which I apologise.
On something of a tangent, the LDS movement figures prominently in The Expanse, and is even a significant plot point at one stage. That was the first time I recall seeing a specific real-world faith treated with something approaching genuine respect (they also presented a Methodist pastor in the same way).
The algorithm is definitely working today. Great video. Subscribed and looking forward to binging your fallout playlist
Thank you so much! I hope you enjoy
@@Over-Lored If this video is anything to go by, I'm sure I will. Good luck growing your channel ☺️
As a Christian myself I appreciate the discussion about Jesus in media it’s nice to see non believers or maybe believers portray the Gospel in an accurate manner in any media thanks for the video may God bless you all
Yes, something I discuss with one of my friends (who is a Catholic priest) is that one of the best things that can be done for Christianity is its mere exposure in media. It is okay to depict the faults in the behavior of Christians, it is okay to portray Christians and the faith as good, but the current status quo is that any depiction at all is seen as taboo. Any portrayal that is not libel, slander, or bigotry should be accepted. There should be more depictions of the faith in media, though it cannot be steeped in proselytizing or else you end up coming off as overbearing and preachy like most Christian media, which makes for a boring watch or in the case of video games, boring play. Christianity is strong enough to be tested in media without resorting to the assumption that all atheists were abused as children or are just rude cynics. When you are trying to preach to atheists, you do not tell them they must convert, you must instead show them why they should.
Dunno if you're religious or not, but as a very faithful Catholic, thank you for being extremely in depth and respectful. Great vid, you have to do more videos like this on various historic topics!
Thank you for the kind words. I will be making more of this style of videos though perhaps not so focused on religion but other historical concepts as well. :)
Thanks for understanding religion is one of two popular schools of thought.
For any readers out there I definitely gotta recommend the fanfiction story called "Paul's Letter to Rome" for a nice author's take on New Canann. The author's not done but it's a pretty great story so far.
The opening monologue is one of the best things to happen to Christianity for a while imo. It reignited the passion in many young Christian’s who played NV and maybe those who didn’t believe and now do.
*Christ is Lord*
Aa an Orthodox myself I'd be interested in seeing how the Ortodox church is doing. It wouldn't suprise me to see missionaries from the various monasteries traveling up and down the Pacific coast in the NCR.
Hello there, fellow Orthodox Christian ☦️. I'm not a fan of the fallout series (no hate, just not my thing) but I clicked on this video, solely because of the icon of Christ on the thumbnail.
Cheers 👍
One note I would suggest on your two options for Saint Monica - I think there is a third potential option. Rather than their memory of Saint Monica having been simply forgotten or corrupted, or that Saint Monica is just someone else - I think it very likely that the changing of her life story may have been an active choice by the post-war clergy to adapt her story to give it continuing relevance in a post-war world. The birth of two ghouls suggests the notion of miracle birth - which is central to Christian theology, and the other elements can make St Monica's life relatable in a way the pre-war world, even the medieval world is not. Still a corruption in a sense - but a willing one, done for a purpose.
Very true. An equally likely possibility.
I had the same idea when I was listening to the sermon. While it's common for aspects of pre-war culture and history to be distorted through the loss of knowledge and records, such as the Capital Preservation Society's distorted retelling of American history, it's even more interesting to see how the fragments and ideas of the past are re-contextualized and adapted to fit contemporary problems.
For example, the Kings gang in Freeside emerged not only because a pair of guys found a bunch of Elvis recordings and memorabilia but also because they sought to bring a sense of stability and community to the slums outside of the New Vegas Strip. The King's ideology, which is centered around the belief that "every man is a king in his own right," emphasizes not only their opposition to Mr. House's and the NCR's heavy handed governance but also a general respect for your fellow man. Of course, all of this is wrapped up in the self-confidence of an Elvis impersonator but that only enhances the effect, giving the gang's members the confidence to stand up to entities vastly more powerful than them.
Catholics famously have done similar things for centuries, so it is possible.
@@marcellinma6169 reminds me of Huey Long.
The founder of Shady Sands and the NCR was an adherent of a Dharmic religion, possibly Hinduism? I think Tim Cain was inspired by Mahatma Gandhi when he created President Aradesh.
Saint Monica coming from Great Lanta makes me wonder if Atlanta as a whole is considered a sort of holy land for post-apocalyptic Catholics. Just for my own pen and paper Fallout campaign, I'm imagining the CDC being the "Holy See" (or Holy C), with its own set of popes and cardinals!
Kind of ironic considering how evangelical Atlanta and the region around it is. There could be a whole mini Israel vs Palestine situation there where Catholics see Atlanta as a holy place, while it’s populated by mostly Protestants.
@6:41 Point Lookout and Far Harbor were the best dlc's Bethesda every made imo. I wish they would just embrace the setting and give us a Fallout Louisiana already
As a Buddhist from a Christian family, this is fascinating
It is really interesting seeing all the Christian iconography and symbolism
“The light shineth in the darkness and the darkness did not comprehend it.”
Maybe the significance of this to Graham is that when he was set on fire by the Legion, and he miraculously survived going on to forever haunt legionaries’ dreams, the light of the Holy Spirit shined on the dark forces of Caesar and they were left so bewildered and terrified that even mentioning Joshua’s name warrants an instant death sentence.
if i lived through what the burned man did id probably become religious too
I’m hoping that a future Fallout game can take influence from the book of Judges. Where the player character acts like the last of the Judges and helps to choose the next ruler of the wasteland like how Judges leads into Samuel and Kings.“In those days there was no order in the wasteland, everyone did what was right in their own eyes.” But first I hope Bethesda gets their shit together.
There's a really fun mod for Hearts of Iron 4 called Old World Blues which contains multiple fan made, but rather high quality playable Christian factions. For those who enjoy strategy sim games I'd highly recommend checking it out.
Joshua graham 😎
The Brotherhood of Steel seems to be heavily influenced by the Catholics in the book A Canticle for Leibowitz. A group of Catholic monks that are set on finding and preserving pre-war knowledge and keeping it safe from the people trying to destroy it.
The Brotherhood of Steel is based on the book Canticle for Leibowtiz
Further linking them, the brotherhood of steel was originally inspired by the order of Leibowitz from the novel a canticle for leibowitz. An order based heavily on catholic monks living in the post apocalypse dedicated to preserving humanities scientific knowledge
Normally really cautious about Christianity in games (because things depicting God could easily step over into being blasphemous etc) but the beginning narration and how you discussed it was really interesting and well done. Great vid! (For context, I have only played a little of one of these games so I have almost no context lol)
Honest Hearts is quite honestly the most accurate depiction to mormonism made by a nonmormon
Accurate in the way it removes agency from the seemingly indigenous population through 2 civilized saviour figures and bastardizes our Navajo language. Even the game's lead designer, JSawyer regrets the entire DLC falling into negative tropes and the use of indigenous languages, he also wishes they had hired indigenous consultants to do a once-over on the DlLC.
@@Bister_Mungle they're missionaries dude, and its the courier who saves them who can be any race
@@CastleAliens That changes nothing. JSawyer still has some amount of regret over the project and acknowledges that the DLC's story cleaved a little too close to its source material (Lawrence of Arabia and The Mission), he also acknowledged that the tribes are not given enough agency in the story and look up to two "civilized" savior figures, and suggests it probably would have been a good idea to bring in Indigenous consultants from the American Southwest to make sure they weren't falling into negative tropes. He also acknowledges that the naming of characters, and more importantly the languages, should have been given a second pass.
Still think I'm reading to deep into something shallow? If anything, the amount of thought put into it by the developers is shallow. Clearly they you never bothered to understand how well we Diné protect our language. Like, did everyone in this country just up and forget we were code-talkers? Our language is our greatest asset. Even info available online about our language is sparse and what info is there, is always incorrect and incomplete. Even when our language is spoken in media (I.e. MGSV) it's incorrect. Not sure how much time you've spent on a rez or around natives, but we're usually not that inclined to share our language with outsiders, and we're even less inclined to teach them
Josh Sawyer's Germanophile conquest of the Navajo is one of the worst parts of the Honest Hearts DLC. The notion that we Navajo, a people with a strong cultural/ethnic identity and oral tradition who managed to survive the war would see our language and culture subsumed by the German of a few tourists we deigned to shelter is just maddening to me as a Navajo and it hearkens back to my experiences in boarding school.
Though almost certainly unintentional, there is a very Euro-centric, colonial "white man's burden" sort of mindset baked into the idea that us Navajos could be so incompetent and so fragile in our cultural identity that we'd need German tourists to guide us through the new post-nuclear world
Today we number around 400,000 and about 100,000 of our tribal members speak Diné bizaad; we're one of, if not the largest extant indigenous societies left in North America. Despite the US government and BIA actively trying to destroy our cultural identity, language, etc. for over a century, we've survived with far more intact than most indigenous peoples can say for themselves.
The notion that we Navajo, of all people, would forget ourselves when Bostonians are running around dressed like colonial militia and the Brotherhood of Steel are, in House's words, "gallivanting around the Mojave like knights of yore," despite being less connected to those histories and cultures than we Navajo people are to our own culture and language, carries a shitload of racist baggage and it leaves a sick taste in my mouth.
@@CastleAliens That changes nothing, bud. JSawyer has personally expressed some amount of regret over the project and acknowledges that the DLC's story cleaved a little too close to its source material (Lawrence of Arabia and The Mission), he also acknowledged that the tribes are not given enough agency in the story and look up to two "civilized" savior figures, and suggests it probably would have been a good idea to bring in Indigenous consultants from the American Southwest to make sure they weren't falling into negative tropes. He also acknowledges that the naming of characters, and more importantly the languages, should have been given a second pass.
Joshua Graham isn't looking good from a Native American perspective and neither is the entire Honest Hearts DLC, but that doesn't matter to people who like him and it especially doesn't matter to the people like you who subscribe to mormonism and you people will disregard any legitmate and real criticism because you don't want to hear it and just like Joshua, you'd prefer for us to have zero agency and zero voice in the matter.
Josh Sawyer's Germanophile conquest of the Navajo is one of the worst parts of the Honest Hearts DLC. The notion that we Navajo, a people with a strong cultural/ethnic identity and oral tradition who managed to survive the war would see our language and culture subsumed by the German of a few tourists we deigned to shelter is just maddening to me as a Navajo and it hearkens back to my experiences in boarding school.
Though almost certainly unintentional, there is a very Euro-centric, colonial "white man's burden" sort of mindset baked into the idea that us Navajos could be so incompetent and so fragile in our cultural identity that we'd need German tourists to guide us through the new post-nuclear world
Today we Dinè number around 400,000 and about 100,000 of our tribal members speak Diné bizaad; we're one of, if not the largest extant indigenous societies left in North America. Despite the US government and BIA actively trying to destroy our cultural identity, language, etc. for over a century, we've survived with far more intact than most indigenous peoples can say for themselves.
The notion that we Navajo, of all people, would forget ourselves when Bostonians are running around dressed like colonial militia and the Brotherhood of Steel are, in House's words, "gallivanting around the Mojave like knights of yore," despite being less connected to those histories and cultures than we Navajo people are to our own culture and language, carries a shitload of racist baggage and it leaves a sick taste in my mouth. Even Josh Sawyer himself regrets the DLC and use of indigenous languages in Honest Hearts and Joshua Graham and Daniel's white savior roles, but people don't want to hear that and will gladly disregard the words coming from the games lead director.
The dissonance to keep people from criticizing their beloved IP is very real with New Vegas fans. I should clarify I'm also a fan of the game, despite my problems with it and I have over 3,000 hours in game on steam.
Still think I'm reading to deep into something shallow? If anything, the amount of thought put into it by the developers is shallow. Clearly they you never bothered to understand how well we Dine protect our language or our bitter history with such religions and your "missionaries". Like, did everyone in this country just up and forget we were code-talkers? Our language is our greatest asset. Even info available online about our language is sparse and what info is there, is always incorrect and incomplete. Even when our language is spoken in media (I.e. MGSV) it's incorrect. Not sure how much time you've spent on a rez or around natives, but we're usually not that inclined to share our language with outsiders, and we're even less inclined to teach them
Hell, the one trope that the base game of New Vegas most strongly plays into is the narrative of the "vanishing Indian". Yet I rarely see that discussed, and when it is, people are just okay with the outright erasure of our presence or lack thereof. Like, for a place named after the Mojave people, they're quite literally nowhere to be found, on top of that there's literally zero Indigenous iconography. In reality, if you traveled anywhere in the Southwest US, it's the exact opposite. Our presence is very hard to ignore. Every gas station has signs telling us we can use our tribal cards as ID instead of state issued ID. It's pretty fucking ironic that we were erased from the land in reality and now we're being erased from the land even in media. So funny it hurts.
Not really it's not a good interpretation of actual Mormons and their culture and their beliefs considering the Mormons in the Fallout Universe are very different to the way Mormons actually exist in real life considering they deny the Trinity by Joshua Graham does affirm the trinity
Thank you for your hard work!
I've been working on building a potential tabletop campaign surrounding Texas in the aftermath of Fallout New Vegas. In it, there's a leader of the Eastern Legion who adheres to Catholicism alongside a Super Mutant Bishop who has a cool backstory being an unwilling part of the Master's Army and regaining his free will after the Master's death.
This Eastern Legion has adopted a more late Roman culture, having a Christian leadership over a population comprised of various peoples, even some who still worship Caesar as the son of Mars who ascended to godhood at Hoover Dam.
Their conflict centers around fending off an ascendant Lone Star Republic, hostile Texas BoS, and the Legion of the Beast that's arisen south of the Rio Grande.
Climax of the campaign is at the Alamo, of course.
Theme song is "Ballad of the Alamo" by Marty Robins, naturally.
The lone star and the church could unite at the end to face a bigger foe
Considering most texas are christians and there is plenty of catholics
This was an interesting video! Definitely one of the more underrated parts of Fallout that not a lot of people cover. Great work!
Good video. Enjoyed it very much. I just found your channel due to it.
If you don't have one already, a video on the multiple cults found through the wasteland would be interesting. Treeminders to the Chucrch of Atom and all the others.
Criminally underrated creator wishing you lots of success !!!
Wait, you only have 400 subs?? The quality of this video is way out of proportion to your sub count!
Thank you for the kind words!
I wrote a whole essay for a theology course in how christianity is represented within this game series. Suprisingly well.
You had a good knowledge of Christianity, I’m pleasantly surprised.
I would disagree that New Canaanites became more Protestant as the years went by. How LDS people talk about the concept of the Trinity is kind of nuanced, and while English speakers usually call it the Godhead, in other languages like Spanish this is not the case. Spanish speaking LDS say Trinidad, which literally translates to trinity. They still mean the same thing when they use these different words.
Joshua Graham and Daniel are interesting characters to me for lots of reasons, as they represent different ideals within Christianity, which is obviously what the writers were going for. They deemphasized the more unique aspects of Mormonism because they just wanted to talk about Christianity and religion at a broader level, but I don’t think that means that New Canaanites have abandoned their traditions as much as you speculate. So why make them Mormons at all? Probably because Las Vegas was largely founded by Mormons and Utah is pretty close, plus the idea of Mormons surviving the destruction of civilization is on brand since we have a reputation for being preppers.
As a Christian I appreciate this dive into what the fallout universe has as far as my faith is concerned. Great video!
Faith = belief without evidence
@@flynnmiddleton7102 Flynn Middleton = Thinks he is smart, but he is not .
@@maxopaladino your the one resorting to insults.
@@maxopaladino have you got a counter argument? What do you think the definition of faith is? This is copied from the Oxford English Dictionary
‘strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.’
@@flynnmiddleton7102 Answer me, why should I argue with you about my beliefs if in the end you will just disagree with everything I say anyway?
I will, yet, continue hanging on my Lord Jesus Christ, the King of Salvation and Mercy, and I wish he blesses you. Even though you might hate Him and His Truth.
In the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints(Mormonism) we mention a lot the triad of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, but that doesn’t mean we’re referring to a trinitarian understanding, so this could be the case with Daniel in Honest Hearts, and what is taught by the New Canaanites in Honest Hearts isn’t contradictory to what is taught within the Church.
The word “triad” is the word in Greek Christian theology for the Trinity.
Christian theology historically was done first/in the East in Greek, and then/in the West in Latin.
Our English word _Trinity_ comes from the Latin _trinitas_
The Greek equivalent is _triad_ or more precisely _triada_
Thus it doesn’t make sense-especially to a Christian like me, in the Greek tradition-to say “I accept the Godhead as a triad, but not the Trinity.
@justicebjorke2790 You completely missed the point I was making, in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints we baptize people in the name of The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but that does not mean we are doing so from a trinitarian understanding, and thus just because Daniel or Graham are making similar statements in forms of 3 does not mean they accept the Trinity as understood by the Christian world.
Graham is literally me
I hope your burns heal soon!
Angels are messengers of God. Specifically in Fallout New Vegas, the Courier is a messenger, the message and where it is from depends on the player. It is curious that the most couriers in the game are dead or almost dead.
I think the Light Shining in Darkness is referring to Joshua not really recognizing God until he was literally set alight
joshua was the name of the one who led hebrews into promised land called canaan after moises died on the mountain nebo in moab land before reaching canaan, I doubt the reference is accidental
also the name is the hebrew version of jesus
The BoH is actually probably loosely based on the post-apoc Catholic monastery that protects advanced tech in the sci-fi book A Canticle for Leibowitz
Here i remember "Maria", the unique 9 mm Pistol with a high crit chance, which the players gets shot with at the beginning of "Fallout New Vegas" and can later aquire after dealing with Benny. There is GRA DLC challenge for killing ghuls with holy weapons like this. With the "Wild Wasteland" Perk you could get Holy Hand Grenades, a reference to Monty Python.
The Mormon religion is quite different from any form of Christianity. Aesthetically it’s very similar, culturally too. But their beliefs diverge significantly. I’m not sure how connected to Mormonism the game said it was, but in the modern day Utah is diversifying when it comes to religion. Utah was once 100% Mormon, today it’s only 45%, with Christian sects of Protestantism and Catholicism combined now make up over a quarter of the population. And the rest mainly being non religious. It is possible this religious diversity (and the likely destruction of the larger religious institutions) caused followers of these sects to attempt to rebuild without the same institutional schisms, so there’s no way of knowing how Christian vs how Mormon it may be, but embracing the Trinity is a sign that the beliefs of Mormonism were likely suppressed to encourage ideological and theological unity under biblical principles.
Great video! One of my favorite niches in fallout!
I feel like fallout should have a focus on faith. Not just the children of Atom cuz I feel like they’re played off like a joke or loons. But both post religions and prewar. Imagine if in the next Fallout game we meet a tribe of Jews or meet a prewar ghoul Muslim. In the wasteland I think with how hard life is. It’s not entirely possible go to religion for both answers to the world and meaning.
Probably.
In the fallout show, Vault 33 also has some kind of minister who officiates Lucy's wedding, though he later is killed by the raiders. Fallout 2 also had a cut abbey, based on the book canticle for leibowitz.
The gun is named "the light shining in the darkness", the darkness represents his enemies. The gun blazes over them and they die in incomprehension because they don't have faith in Jesus who said "I Am The Light of the World"
The moment I clicked I knew exactly what to expect…
I recommend "A Canticle for Leibowitz" by Walter M Miller Jr as a great example of Christian post apocalyptic literature.
14 seconds into the video and i subbed
Introduction = cold chills
Broke down when he said I been baptized twice, once in water once in flame…
You should have talked about fallouts realrion to canticle for leibowitz more really good book sad they cut the abbey for fallout 2
Honestly I like the idea of the BOS being the remnants of civilization
Great video! Just a little correction 13:35 only a bishop can ordain a priest. Keep up the good work.
I'd love to hear about orthodoxy in the fallout lore
I really enjoy these aspects of Fallout. Like even in an alternate universe the inclusion of religion is really interesting. Like as minor as it is in Fallout 3 I did really like Father Clifford and the fact he is mentioned by Marcella in Point Lookout and her own mission and stuff. And of course Joshua Graham needs no explanation with how epic he is but also Daniel sticking with his own ideals.
All I can think while watching this is "Why hasn't this been made before?"
This is an excellent subject, great video
What are the names of the chants used in this video?
If such a small sect of Christianity like Mormons have survived at 200 years in the Wasteland there is no doubt in my mind that other Christian sects have survived like Catholicism Orthodoxy and Protestants it's probably just that we don't see them in game. Because one Bethesda doesn't really care about adding to the lore that much. And I think they just don't want to accidentally disrespect Christians because we are the main religious group today. But it would be cool if we ever got a game and let's say grease or Russia or we could see how the Orthodox Church is doing after the bombs dropped especially would be cool to see Mount Athos in the Fallout world considering it's a giant Island full of monks I would love to see how they have adapted to the Fallout world. But as a Orthodox Christian I would love to see Orthodoxy represented in more media. Especially in video games. It strikes me as very odd that the stalker franchise Never Dies into Russian Orthodoxy. Is it Orthodoxy is the biggest thing in Russia it's the biggest religion that is practiced survived more persecution than probably any other religious group in the world especially during Stalin's era and even now is being persecuted pretty badly by the Ukrainian government
One more note Catholicism has over a billion members of worldwide as of this day and age I'm surprised we don't see more Catholics in the Fallout World especially in New Vegas because South Americans love themselves to some Catholicism
Well technically their beliefs shifted to not be stricly mormon but rather generalized protestant which makes sense as in a post apocalypse there would be less people to form various groups that disagree with each other
I agree it would be cool to see how orthodox church handled it but itd be interesting to see russia in a fallout game in general
@@theFORZA66 Or Greece
This was awesome! Thank you!
It's not official canon, but in Fallout: London the Catholic Church survived the bombs. You can visit St. Paul's Cathedral, which now provides shelter and community to the displaced and needy in London. The cardinal that administers to the church is a ghoul from the day the bombs fell.
I always wanted a knights templar style faction. Where they wear old knights armor they found and use a mix of swords, bows and some types of guns. I recently became Christian again. Trauma made me atheist for a long time. Over the years I've slowly changed. Went from atheist at 20, agnostic at 22, a religion theorist at 25 and now a Christian at 28. My mom is catholic. From what I studied of catholicism it seems like the branch I like the most. I don't think I will ever belong to a specific church but follow the teachings of the bible as well as parts of the church itself.
The difference between the Catholic church and the Orthodox Christian church is that the latter refused to make any changes (keep up with the times) as time went on- as it believes that since The Lord is unchanging, so too is the way to praise and follow Him.
So who knows, u might find it even more agreeable than the one u currently like best...
@@l.t.6549 I've looked into orthodoxy. Its certainly something I'm interested in also. I of course don't agree with everything the catholic faith teaches or does. Not sure if you know this youtuber, but Andrew Wilson has made orthodoxy sounds more in tune to what I believe in as well from a political side.
At 14:54 what is the background music called?
"Media Vita" This and other music are listed in description :)
The man really played Media Vita, IN TE SPERAVERUNT PATRES NOSTRIS, SPERAVERUNT ET LIBERASTI EOS! GLORIA DEI, AVE MARIA!
Its also important to note that History itself is repeating in fallout with the roman empire once again coming into being with Cesars legion.
The purpose of showing the Christian faith in the series is to reflect our real world History, it being a force for civilisation.Many people believe all Religions are mostly the same but this is false. It makes a big difference if the god you believe in tells you to love the Person next to you as much as yourself or if his name is immortan joe
Amazing job and new subscriber keep them coming I love fallout series especially Joshua Graham he’s the fallout GOAT
I would say Joshua Graham is prity much consistent with authodox mormon/lds teaching
what's the name of the song used in the intro with Joshua?
"Gregorian Chant" Listed in description along with other audio :)
@@Over-Lored thank you very much
You forgot The Followers of the Apocalypse
They're Christian? I thought they were a cult
@@yuri.tarded-m9zThey'd fit right in with the larger church considering their mission and symbols.
They're a secular group, dude...assuming Bethesda doesn't ruin them like they ruined the BoS.
If I were to hazard a guess as to religious demographics of the NCR, I suspect the three most prominent religions would be Christianity, Dharma (as practiced by Aradesh), and Hubology (as seen in Fallout 2).
talking about roman empire we have that quirky faction in new vegas called caesar's legion that trying to immitate the ancient civilisation, and on the other side ncr who are struggling to stop them in taking over their land (like jews against romans in the jesus' time), in the same time we have bos hiding in the bunker like early christians in post jesus time, quite intriguing if you focus on deeper meaning
Why was St Monica's life actually so beautiful 😭
There are churches in fallout, if you look around the churches there are little clues about Christianity, like a note saying "just lie" or a collection of dead children hidden in the attic.
Hristos Anesti!
Dunwich Co. was involved in child sacrifice. It'd be great if there was a DLC or mods that expanded on that.
Where did you get the speech at the beginning?
A quest mod "book of Eli" style is needed.
The suvivor of the bombs, those who saw the bomb drop would keep the fate until the next generations would turn into paigan religions or maybe does who saw the bombs drop would keep the fate and teach the next generations and pass them the torch.
Idk if Children of Atom or Cult of Mothman would be allies to Catholics in Fallout Universe
I’ve been listening to the New Testament read by Joshua Graham. AI slop but still cool
I'm sorry youtube showing these amazing videos is there a glitch?
13:40 In the Catholic Church, priests don't ordain priests. Also, the church in the game is set up with the pulpit at the center.
Hubology is a prewar religion in Fallout that survived the Great War. Supposed to be an analogue for Scientology
If a Fallout game in Europe happened, probably around in Italy or France, Christianity is very pronounced on those areas, as in France, during the dark age, the last knights of thr Templars was wiped out alongside it's Grandmaster De Molay, and this was portrayed in the starting scene of Assassin's Creed Unity.
And the M1911 and the Browning Hi Power maker, John Browning from what I've heard is a mormon or a Christian based on what i heard.
The templars were partly wiped out, and partly exiled from France into England by christians because they, after having spent time in the desert as crusaders, had secretly turned to the Cabala- which included practices such as ritualistically "relieving themselves" on the Cross (as an initiation ritual), ritualistic s0d0my, truly evil rituals involving children, etc... And were also quickly taking control of Europe's then banking system- having become so powerful in this regard, that even kings would borrow money from them, this control being pursued literally with world dominion as its goal.
The Knights Templar were what is now called Freemasonry.
The templars were partly wiped out, and partly exiled from France into England by christians because they, after having spent time in the desert as crusaders, had secretly turned to the Cabala- which included practices such as ritualistically "relieving themselves" on the Cross (as an initiation ritual), ritualistic s0d0my, truly evil rituals involving children, etc... And were also quickly taking control of Europe's then banking system- having become so powerful in this regard, that even kings would borrow money from them, this control being pursued literally with world dominion as its goal.
The Knights Templar were what is now called Freemasonry.
See, the religious stuff only really happens from 3 onwards. The earlier games are very clear about having other religions.
If you want an interesting comparison, go look at the first 5 games. Hubology, Dharma, Plutonius, etc. Christianity is a very Bethesda era only thing.