Blue Jays take out Berrios despite his great pitching, a breakdown
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- Опубликовано: 22 авг 2024
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Seeing him watching the celebration afterwards from the dugout was really sad, especially after the underrated return-to-self year he’s had
Especially because he was Minnesota's number one starter for years -- that could have been him out there celebrating. As a lifelong Twins fan, I wish he were.
It wasn’t John Scheinder decision though, it was higher ups..
@@rk3739the decision to take him out after 3 came from above?
@@pipogonzalez2174 ya it’s all the sport radio could talk about today. The analytic team and upper management made the call before the game. John Scheinder had to listen to them. He had little say in the matter.
@@rk3739 unbelievable
Smart move to pull Berrios when they did. They'll need him ready to go for the opening week of the 2024 regular season.
💀
as a Jays fan, this team deserves all the shaming it can get and then some. It's f*cking disgusting the amount of talent that this team has and how little they have to show for it.
all they know how to do is swing at every pitch. That's the reason they can't get offense. Can't hit if you swing and miss every pitch.
At least you’re not a white Sox fan
@@sdaftermath123 or yankees! lol
Cmon bro they're not going to let a Canadian team win another world series. $$$$$$$$$
You don't deserve a seat at the Skydome after that comment. Stay at home or find another team.
This is going to be remembered as an all time boneheaded move by the front office. Poor Jose.
As a Yankee fan we have had more than our share of bad moves and this one is reaching up to our level of idiocy.
*mariner fans have entered the chat*
In fairness... the offense did nothing and took very little to no accountability
Stupid move by Schneider
If your coaching decisions are predetermined or inflexible then your not coaching.
Talk about stabbing a pitcher in the back. He pitched a gem, was totally in control. Horrible call to bring in another pitcher.
not even the first time this manager did this shit
And his energy was focused... He was completely in the game. Manager sucks.
You’re not an MLB manager and you don’t have a time machine to view alternative realities. Elite MLB batters get better after they’ve seen the same pitcher multiple times, and the top of the order was about to come around for a third time. Sometimes it doesn’t matter how good of a pitcher you are.
@@nws6146 neither are you. manager was wrong this time. why are you arguing for no reason?
@@nws6146lol you act like pitchers have never thrown complete games before.
Schneider already had a vacay planned that he didn’t wanna cancel.
@@elaspic😂😂
@@elaspicI keep seeing people saying Cancun. I know it’s not funny if you have to explain it, but I’ve just got to know why I keep seeing it.
@@reedl.wilton312 In any North American sport, being eliminated means you're going to Cancun. With hockey, they also say it's time to go golfing.
@@reedl.wilton312 Cancun is a popular off-season vacation spot for many of the top leagues in north america, particularly among NBA players. It essentially is saying that there season is over.
@@hunter22x Gotcha. Thanks!
Thanks so much for making 90% of this breakdown on Berrios' excellent pitching, and only 10% on the Jays' awful decision making.
The decision to remove Berrios from the game is 100% the reason Vladdy getting picked off at 2nd wasn't on the front page of the Sun today.
Vladdy getting picked off at second was way worse than the pitcher getting pulled like this. How do you get picked off at second with your best hitter up with runners on second and third... Bo was putting together a good AB too. Vlad Jr deserves so much blame. Wtf is he doing that far off the base in that situation? You CANNOT let that kind of thing happen. He deserves to be ridiculed to no end for that. You just can't let that happen. What a stupid mistake.
@@birdwatcher1337the lead wasn’t even that bad, the problem was the crowd noise was so loud he couldn’t hear the third base coach. If he can hear his third base coach that pick never happens.
@@HankusHillus are you for real? You need to hear your third base coach to not get picked off? Lmao whatever.
@@birdwatcher1337 nope, but it certainly helps if you can hear your third base coach yell “BACK!” When the shortstop is creeping in for a pickoff. Vladdy is fat and a bad baserunner but that pickoff still never happens if he can hear the third base coach.
@@HankusHillusjust excuses. Doesn't matter if he couldn't hear the 3B coach, he should've been aware and paying attention instead of falling asleep in a elimination game.
It's an elimination game! What the hell are you saving him for?!
Next season, obviously!
They werent saving him. They thought they were big brained and switch put for the lefties
I mean, I suppose one could argue "what are you saving the bullpen for?" As well, but like, if the guy's on it, the guy's on it. Keep him in until there's evidence they've figured him out. Wait for two straight hits or two straight walks or a homer or something.
@@reaganharder1480I’m not sure you do that in a 0-0 game with 47 pitches in the fourth inning. He was doing perfectly fine.
They weren't saving him for anything, it was a pre-planned thing to force match ups against a lefty and I guess deplete the Twins bench. Good on paper (maybe), friggin' dumb to actually do when you saw what Berrios was doing. So, so dumb.
And thank you to jomboy for shining a light on this. Management in toronto is run by chat GPT.
Even ChatGPT would have left Berrios in after only pitching 47 pitches. This was either just a totally boneheaded call or some kind of big money was involved in throwing this game.
As a non-baseball fan who pretty much only knows baseball through this channel, you're description of the various pitches and the thoughts behind them was so insightful. Within two minutes I felt like I had a real grasp on what a pitcher is trying to do, and what the batter is contending with. Great stuff.
There's a reason Atkins and Shapiro went with back-to-back rookie managers in Montoyo and now Schneider. They don't need a manager, they just need a yes man that will do whatever the analytics dept tells him to do. Can't imagine a veteran manager like Terry Francona or Bruce Bochy letting the front office dictate every move for him.
I realize there was a money issue but I can't understand having some of the most exciting baseball in over a decade and then Rogers deciding "Hey, I want what the Cleveland Indians are having." in 2016. ChatGPT could manage the Jays for all they care.
Same teams but switch managers and the results are 180* different. Didn't Schneider and the entire front office staff realize Minn was where Jose started? Absolutely disgusting what they did. Notice Walker leave the dugout and head to clubhouse? He wanted NOTHING to do with that.
@@4spdragtop Schneider is way over his head. AAA coach at best. And no balls.
Sounds exactly like the New York Yankees. WHY is the front office getting involved and not letting the manager, you know, manage the game?
Bochy did this all the fucking time tf
The picture floating around of him watching the twins celebrate from the dugout is nothing short of heartbreaking.
Only thing I hate about playoff baseball is the short leash many coaches give their pitchers. I don't understand it. You spend 162 games playing the game a certain way only to change how you play them in the playoffs. Let him pitch, there is no quarantee the next guy you bring in will be accurate or have his stuff. Joe Maddon did the same thing with Hendricks, and so did Bruce Boche with his entire pitching staff in SF.
There were a few Cubs who said they won it in 2016 DESPITE Maddon's coaching. Just sucks.
I disagree re: Bochy. He definitely cost the Giants the series in 2016, but he was usually willing to stick with his starting pitchers unless they showed early on that they didn't have it, and even then he only pulled them when they got into high leverage situations
@@tkbikesnc6079 Maddon completely overused Chapman in the WS that year. Chapman was clearly gassed and blew the save in game 7, but he (and Maddon) got bailed out by the offense.
@@Il_Exile_lI Meh, Chapman is notoriously unable to get things done in the playoffs. That's nothing new for him in that Cubs series. He's been the same way since. Very little postseason success.
Reminds me when Cash pulled Snell in the 2020 WS because it was third time through the order, even though Snell was statistically better 3rd time through than 2nd time.
As a Jays fan, our manager needs to be fired. This isnt the first time his poor decisions have lost us games
Schneider was just following orders. Fire Atkins and his computer nerds.
Wasn't even his decision, but in the end he's the manager and he didn't have the balls to overwrite the other coaches and keep him in, but it's not just Schneider that needs to be fired. Ross Atkins is too addicted to analytics and needs to go and Guillermo Martínez the batting coach needs to be gone. At this rate just clean house and get rid of Pete Walker too.
Bro that was one of the worst decisions I've ever seen lol it is almost as if they actively tried to lose the game!
All season I was like WTF with our decisions about pulling pitchers
@@EnrageD420Not Pete Walker, but everyone else for sure.
Twins fan here. MAD RESPECT to Berrios. He displayed a lot of maturity and class in the way that he handled that.
Jays fan here: good luck to the Twins! Cheering for them now.
Loved seeing the overlay of the pitches. Thx for the work that goes into showing us that👍
Berrios was on FIRE!!! Shame on the Toronto Blue Jays organization for doing this to him, their players, and their fans. Shame! Shame! Shame!
As a twins fan it felt like you guys did us a favor
That was Grady Little type stuff right there
Yep, I don't get it. These coaches try and overmanage and make dumb moves they would never make in the regular season. Berrios gave up 0 runs and didn't even hit 50 pitches and he was yanked. Make it make sense.
@@loviepittsburgh2222
His pitching line: 3 IP's, 3 Hits, 1 Walk, 1 Earned run, 5 K's.
Schneider giving Berrios the quick hook is NOT the reason the Jays are out of the post season. Jose Berrios is NOT Sandy Koufax. Or Justin Verlander, and a ton of others.
The check cleared. That's all they care about.
After rewatching this Kikuchi actually didnt pitch bad other than the walk. Both of those ground balls couldve been outs if the infielders were positioned slightly different.
I noticed that as well, and was surprised Biggio didn't come up with the ball cleanly to turn that first hit into an out. It's not Biggio's fault, hence the no error on the play, but this inning could've easily been a shutout inning.
Agreed, Kikuchi wasn't bad, just got put in a tough unfamiliar spot and had some bad luck on ground balls. Offense shat the bed this series, but that's no surprise.
Kikuchi was definitely a-ok, but man was Berríos rolling
He was okay but Berrios was amazing, that still matters
9 innings and no runs. The offense was the issue.
We know Schneider didn't maje that call. Analytics department did. But he should've had the jam to stick up for his pitcher and tell them to piss off.
Those pitch sequences and combos were insightful, thank you. On Kikuchi, aside from the walk, he actually induced 4 consecutive groundballs. The first ruled infield hit after Biggio fails to complete the play. The second gets through, as you say with the infield in. The 3rd was a perfect double play ball, and 4th that no one talks about was again an easy out. More rotten luck than anything else.
This is like the Blake Snell moment vs the Dodgers
Yup. It'd be interesting to see how many times prematurely taking out a starter having a AMAZING performance has actually paid off vs not.
It's even worse. Snell was facing them for the 3rd time in the 6th inning. Berrios, 2nd time 4th inning. It's absolutely unprecedented and inexcusable.
Was thinking the same thing. Bizarre they pulled Berrios, regardless of any game-plan.
pulling blake snell at least made MORE sense
The Jays were so poorly managed this year, it's a wonder they were still able to make the playoffs in spite of it all.
Schneider belongs in AAA. No business being in the MLB
The wildcard is barely the playoffs
they got in thanks to other teams losing more. They celebrated after two straight losses to the Rays to end the season. This team ain't it
@@jdeighan"they got in thanks to other teams losing more"
Generally that's how making the playoffs happen 😂
specifically at the end of the season though@@Roller11111
To be honest, I really don’t know shit about baseball except for your basic do you know who is who of the 80s and 90s but I love watching the videos here because they explain so much to somebody who doesn’t know anything and watching the overlays from each pitch to pitch is really really cool.
Not only that, but my wife is a big baseball person and I can keep up in conversation when she starts asking about it or talking to her friends about baseball so thanks for that
Berrios had a bounce-back year and was ready for this game. And not excusing the Vlad pick-off (inexcusable), but I wouldn't be surprised if all of them were shell-shocked.
That really sucks for the original pitcher to have everything he built fall apart so quickly
Sometimes as a manager you have to abandon the initial plan and go with your gut feeling
We've been saying this for years. But the manager has to bend to the front office who wants to go by analytics and follow the plan. It's ruining baseball. If it was solely left to Schneider, he would have trusted Berrios pitch himself out of trouble.
If you knew Jays would score only 1 run over 2 games, you'd be predicting 100% of the time they would lose the series no matter how good their pitching.
So bring in bum , take out a guy who could maybe give you 7 shutout innings .the 2runs they handed Twins was enough
Schneider did the exact opposite of what he did last year; instead of keeping a pitcher in too long and letting him get ripped up, he took a pitcher that was flying high out too early and the bullpen collapsed like a $5 lawn chair.
Imagine being in a three-legged race and the guy you are literally tied to punches you in the face.
This is the same thing that happened last year against the Mariners when he pulled Gausmen in the wild card round
Even as a Twins fan that is crushing to see! Berrios was dialed in and killing it!
Loved this. Great content. Fascinating the whole way through.
As a Twins fan who really liked Berrios when he was a Twin... however, he's always looked special his first and even second trip through order, but that sequencing doesn't have much other variety that is efficient, and that's what always got him in trouble late... late 4th, 5th, 6th innings he could never hold through
This is the comment I was looking for.
He's truly a great pitcher, and his stuff is as good as it ever was.
That being said, he never did well after anyone saw him twice. I don't think many SP have great luck the third time through, but for whatever reason Berrios always had it the worst.
However, he was only through 12 batters so he had a bit more available to go, especially at only 47 pitches.
I love these videos. I learn so much. Baseball is pretty interesting when you understand how the pitches work.
Can you imagine Gibby taking instructions from the front office in game? Yeah right. Everyone know who made this call. Buck sound like he was about to invade the dugout and take over. He said it perfectly when he was talking about you know what you’re getting from Berrios you don’t know what you’re getting from Kikuchi. Embarrassing.
It was a top down decision. Numbers are great but they don't take into account momentum or emotion. Taking someone really hot out of the game kills a teams spirit.
Just like how they sat Davis Schneider when he was in the midst of a hot streak
@@jdeighanExactly. We shouldn't be surprised. This is like management at most corporate company's and Rogers is the corporate of the corporate in Canada. Management does not value the front line employees opinions as they are deemed to be to focused on the front line. The reality is most people on the front line know what needs to be done as they actually see how granular numerical analytics can negatively impact results. Wouldn't surprise me if this was a top down decision from Rogers. Jay's failed out just as Hockey season starts. Rogers owns the NHL broadcast in Canada and stands to earn more hyping a multi-month, multi-team broadcast ownership than just the Jays. Speculation, but I wouldn't put it past Dead Ted and the Boys.
As a bluejays fan, I dreaded this breakdown. Oh my lord.
Love the overlay breakdowns 👌
Great breakdown. The stuff he had in that start is the best example of why they gave him $130M, and they pull him at 47 pitches. Drives me nuts as a Jays fan
Analytics gave the Twins a gift. Bet the Twins dugout all looked at each other and said we got this when Berrios was yanked. Reminds me of when the Rays yanked Snell a few years ago.
I don't care what plan you have when it comes to baseball. All plans go on hold when your pitcher is dominating.
It's crazy to take a SP out of a start like that without it being bc of fatigue.
the espn broadcasters thought he must've been injured when they bullpen started throwing
As a Twins fan, I’m obviously glad he got pulled since it lead to us winning. But it was also sad to see him watching the celebration. He was the twins top pitcher for years.
I still remember the first time he matched up with the White Sox. (My favorite team) I saw that Slurve one time and he instantly became one of my favorite pitchers. He used to destroy us when he was a twin.
It’s important also to note that he walked Royce Lewis in his last PA, a guy who went yard twice the day before and would obviously be pitched away from anyways
Said this in some other places, but even as a Twins fan I was sad to see Berríos pulled 😔 He could’ve gone through seven innings in my opinion
Craziest overlay in Jomboy history and that’s saying a lot. Thank you sir
As a lifelong Twins fan...
I approve the decision 💯
Might as well do a breakdown of Bichette getting thrown out at home by Correa next to complete the weekly/postseason dumb of the Blue Jays
Analytics at its finest. If I was on one of those players I’d smash every analytic device/tablet in the dugout.
Tablets, can't stand the sight of them.
@2:19 This is why we love Jomboy. I don't watch baseball on TV (grew up going to Angels v Dodgers) but I never miss a Jomboy + learn/laugh so much!
Just love your breakdowns. Even though cricket is not your sport, I would have loved to see you break down the wizardry of the late great Shane Warne in the late 90s and early 2000s as he worked batsmen over with outstanding sequences of ball control and spin
I'm a Jays fan. This is a textbook example of how you lose the clubhouse. Everyone knows how this happened. Schneider got a call from the analytics department and followed them to a T, and then proceeded to give up runs. It absolutely sucks. Berrios had a hell of a comeback season working on his weaknesses and was hitting all areas of the plate here, but analytics won out, so of course he was pulled. Again, it absolutely sucked.
Poor Toronto fans. Nothing worse than when a manager breaks everyone's hearts with one bad decision
trust me, this is the first time Schneider has made such a horrible move :(
For a sure a bad decision, but it's not all on Schneider or the staff that help make that decision. Even with Berrios kept in the game would have still been a shutout. The offense couldn't have been quieter and that Vladdy pick off on second? They never stood a chance
@@Nemisis680 But you never know how the game is different if Berrios pitches into the 7th inning. Bringing in Kikuchi gave the Twins a massive boost and absolutely destroyed the Blue Jays (they were all over Gray, just couldn't score... until the 4th)
@@henryleitch There was no guarantee Berrios would've kept it scoreless into the 7th inning, and bringing in Kikuchi actually degraded the Twins lineup with the removal of two lefty bats that destroy right-handed pitching. The Kikuchi move made it much easier for the Jays righty relievers to shut down the Twins offense.
You're correct that we never know how the game would be different. It could've been better or worse by leaving Berrios out there.
Manager is just a yes man following orders. Problem is the GM and his obsession with analytics.
Showing both pitches like that in two colors in slow motion is one of the coolest things I've ever seen.
Never having played organized baseball, I can now much better appreciate how hard it is to hit in the majors.
This is the best pitching breakdown Jomboy's ever done
Analytics is killing baseball.
Aren’t analytics supposed to be for regular season and typical situation?
Surely there is some ability for the manager to make a call in the moment. It can’t be written in stone that analytics must be followed?
I’m not letting the manager off this one
Personally, as someone that is new to baseball (and from what I've read elsewhere) analytics only works when a large sample size is present (162 game regular season) and when you're presented with both good and bad teams (averages out over the course of the season). When it doesn't work is during play off time and you're up against high quality hitting and pitching. You must rely on your players to do their job, not what a spreadsheet says. If you drop a game during the regular season, it's not that bad (if you can make up for it or course). But during the play offs, you cannot afford to drop games.
Nothing wrong with analytics per se. It's the stupid use of them that leads to removing pitchers who have entered the zone.
Not when you have a good coach
analytics are a good tool but if someone is performing let them cook
Analytics has gotten out of control.
1:22 the umpire was like “he got your ass” when he pointed at him 😂🤣🤣😂
Love the way you have the sequence of videos overlapping
For as mad as everyone is (rightfully so) at the manager for taking Berrios out... Let's not forget that the Jays only scored a single run over the 2 game series...
Great their pitching wasn't going to save them from being eliminated.
This move was ridiculously questionable but at the same time the bigger problem was the offense. Even with this move the game was held to two runs so while this will be remembered along with pulling Snell and not putting in Zach Britton the blue jays were never in this game to begin with and we're offensively in the one the day before.
My favourite type of breakdown, thank you!!!!
Great breakdown. Please post more of this!!
Basically a video of why they SHOULDN'T have taken him out 🤓
As a twins fan, I approve this message.
Y'all want Houston right ? Houston in 3.
as a non-Jays fan, Vlads beached seal impression was spot on
This is such a great pitch breakdown! thank you Jomboy!
I see Montoyo was the problem. Indeed.
Karma
Montoyo pulled out the bongos and played all night after yesterday's game.
Blue jays with a wasted season
Again.
Biggio had a horrible series
There whole offense had a horrible series!@@SSNESS
@@seanwhitehouse2274 Their
I feel that. It's gutting putting your team in a great position, having a great game, only to be pulled (planned or not) and see that position crumble
Great graphics and explanation. Look forward to more of these.
Dang that was an amazing breakdown! Watching those pitches cut at the last second is a talent credited to his insane pitch control. You can feel his devastation in the end.
Thank you for the great explanation of how pitching works.
I think everyone in MLB was left stunned by this move! The Twins probably sent the Blue Jays Front Office one of their bottles of Champagne! Need to sack them all! Great Channel, I should have subscribed a long time ago!
Wow those pitches were so amazingly good. This guys a pro.
I've always enjoyed watching Jose pitch. It was fun seeing him go out there and doing well... even if it was against the twins! Watching those overlays brings a whole new appreciation to the art of pitching and the difficulty of hitting. Keep it up Jomboy!
this last 3 or 4 days have been the hardest days of being a Jays fan that I can remember for a while
Jomboy, I hate that you’re a Yankees fan but man do I respect you.
I love the pitching overlays!
Reminds me of what happened to Blake Snell a few years ago in the playoffs.
Wow, never seen pitches broken down like that. Really puts what they're doing into perspective. Someone I know always says baseball is like a chess match, and this shows that very well.
Over-reliance on the bullpen has become such a regular choice by managers in the modern postseason game. I understand the strategy of wanting to throw your best stuff at the opponent every game, but it's gotten to a point where it feels more like fear than tactics to pull the starter early. Granted it is a tough balancing act to know when a starter's fatigue will be stronger than a reliever's nerves
Those are great layovers - lets see more of that!
As someone who plays ULTIMATE FRISBEE (love it when Jam breaks down sports you "might have missed") but no one can deny the baseball insight is top tier. So grateful. Love the analysis. Let me know when you need ULTIMATE FRISBEE thoughts.
Been a Jays fan forever and have been treated to some incredible pitching performance from the past. They are rare and even more rare in the post season. A 0-0 game with your guy pumped on the mound and hes thriwing a gem. Since the loss, ive read all k8nds of comments about on social media about the problem being the jays inabillity to score and thats of course a fact. But in this game, its tie and the team is watching their guy battle on the mound. It was the best i have seen Berrios pitch since becoming a Jay. That type ofperformance lifts your teammates up. It gives them confidence. Pulling him at that time, just deflated the team. Analytics is a tool, like video replay. Did the data take into consideration how zoned in Berrios was against his former team, pitching offthe mound he once occupied? Does analytics say how this was the most focused Berrios was? Whoever was part of that decision needs to stand in front of the media and expain to the fans that filled the Rogers center all season long and explsin why they knew how an outcome of a post season was going to play out before the players even took the field. Explain to the Jays fans why their theory and approach failed with Gausman the year before and Shoemaker the year before that, but continue to follow their absurd theory.
Hockey player here.... this was the equivalent of pulling out your hot goaltender during a shutout and putting the backup in. WTF is with baseball managers. The biggest game of the year and you pull out the only guy keeping you in it??
I'm from Buffalo too, so closet Jays fan since they played here during the pandemic and we are the MiLB affiliate.
Awesome reliving this moment
Joe List gave y'all a shoutout on JRE, hope it gets you guys more eyeballs on your awesome content
Masterful. Great video. Thank you
This is a pitching class with Jomboy.
There seriously needs to be an investigation into this. This was not just some dumb move; it was blatant game-fixing.
This is the 2023 version of Buck Showalter picking the mystery box instead of the boat
Contrast Torey in Arizona, letting Gallen have a long leash after the shaky 1st and he just buzzsawed Milwaukee afterwards. You gotta let your horses go in October until they're in actual peril
Jose deserved better. Damn good pitcher and a first class guy.
I don't empathize much with Toronto fans, however as a Yankee fan I emphasize with pitchers who are on fire that get pulled by the mangers for analytic reasons.
The pitching staff is incredible, the offense is just .. i have no words to explain
Was Dave Roberts the manager ?
As a die hard jays fan…. This was some of the hardest baseball I have had to watch in my lifetime
Reminds me of Snell being pulled by Cash. My heart goes out to Mr. Berrios