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I dunno if you’re trying to drag the video out, but listing off every number for all these things is really tedious and turned me off to this channel…just make a freakin plot or graphic and show it a few seconds, focus on the analysis rather than droning off a list of numbers in repeating the same sentence structure - it’s mind numbing.
I pitched since I was 11. At 14-15 I was throwing around 75. I moved, and joined a rec league because tryouts were already finished. Because of my velo I was pitching most games and despite the pitch cap, throwing at my max velo every game screwed me up so badly. Rotator cuff issues, shoulder blade issues, forearm issues, and eventually weakness, numbness, tremoring, pins and needles in my finger tips. I was told after seeing a sports doc that I had a hole through the middle of my UCL (Tommy john). Take care of yourselves out there guys, don't throw junk while you're still growing, and don't overtrain and over practice. Just because you're told you can pitch 4 innings doesn't mean you always should. Health before wealth, I don't wish my arm issues on anyone.
_'4 innings'_ ?! *LOL* It was a rare occasion indeed when I failed to go the full regulation 6(LL) or 7(high school, Babe Ruth L, Thoroughbred L) often continuing into extra innings if the situation called for it and I threw pretty much nothing but "heat". Unless , I just didn't "have it" that day - for whatever reason - it *never* occurred to me or anyone else that I'd relinquish the ball without finishing what I'd started...for what; some bum worse than me to assume the mound and procced to destroy all of my hard work? Sidenote: I HATED pitching, didn't have the patience, mentality or temperament for it ..did it only because coaches and teammates begged me to ..would much rather have spent my time roaming the outfield even strapping on the ol' "tools of ignorance" and crouching behind the plate was more appealing than having to worry about pitching out of the stretch, keeping runners close to the bag, a batter's profile(strengths and weaknesses) Anyway, never had any "issues" with my arm and I was hardly refined in my approach(never considered myself much more than a "thrower" as opposed to a true practitioner of the art; a "pitcher" in other words) flirted with 90 at my peak. I can attribute my success to either dumb luck in the genetic draw or the "gods" having mercy on me
@@tommyriam8320 you wrote a whole essay just to laugh at me for saying you don't always have to pitch 4 innings when you're at you're at an age where you're told not to mess up your arm LOL. okay buddy, your high school games aren't worth injuring yourself over. maybe to you they are.
Lotta factors here -- I also think when pitch count became demonized for pitcher health and longevity, it encouraged pitchers to redline every pitch. Back when starters were going deep into games every start they weren't going all out on every fastball they threw.
They should be like in F1, you can change the pitcher if it get an injury, but the team gets a penalty. I am sure they will trade off speed for less injury to avoid penalties. Just like in F1 they now build robust reliable engines over more powerfull ones (but less reliable) just to avoid penalties
I feel a big part is this new age of biomechanics where people try to mold their mechanics to what’s “ideal” for velocity and it’s not natural to them. Some people are just not born to be able to throw that hard for a long period of time
This gotta be true, I was a sophomore in HS throwing upper 60's and by my senior year I was peaking 80MPH, as a sophomore i had VERY good accuracy but it was the speed that kept me from varsity despite going 22.1 innings without allowing a walk on JV. Senior year started rocky with my 2nd game I allowed 9ER, then the next game I had to pitch is when I "learned to pitch" I had to face the defending state champions, had to have a different approach, I did, I knew I couldn't power through em so I had to read each batters stance and find the hole to get an out, 3 k's 1 BB, 3 H, 2 ER, probably around 60 pitches in the CG. My senior year I had a lot of games where I pitched 100+, including an extras game where i pitched 8 innings, 2er in the 1st, no hits the next 7 ,1 BB my last start before college was my PR at 13 k's in 6 innings, 2ER, 1BB, CG around 90 pitches Speed is NOT key, the ability to read the batter and understand their motion can help you out a lot whether you want a strike or a ground out I always followed a natural motion while pitching even though my throwing arm goes way behind my back, like if my arms were at 210 degrees
I have been watching baseball since the 1950s. Yeah, I'm old. Baseball did the right thing, putting a clock in the game. It offsets players stepping out of the batter's box after every pitch to adjust their batting gloves, which we not worn "back in the day". If baseball wanted to make the game truly exciting, they would move the mound back 10 feet and move the fences back 50 feet. The game would be so full of action that they would have to make it an every-other-day sport due to player fatigue. Actually, baseball expert George Will has said that the mound should be moved back, I don't think he was talking about 10 feet, but move it back a couple of feet anyway.
I don’t know. Distances are sacred in baseball. 90 feet between bases is the soul of perfection. But fence distance is fluid. I agree we need more spacious outfields for more exciting games.
baseball looked into this. Theo Epstein said that moving the mound back will cause more issues with sliders and curveballs since they will drop more. A more simpler solution would be to limit the number of pitchers in a game to 3-4 to force starting pitchers to go longer. It will bring down the velocity and let batters see pitchers the 3rd time through when the batting averages go up by 100 points.
Make the ball out rubber, add pot holes to the outfield, hurdles between 1st 2nd and 3rd, hitting a home run adds a second ball into play like pinball till your side is out, pitcher has to throw both balls at once, put a slip and slide into home and sure let's make it 800 feet to each corner of the outfield and 1000 in the middle. Ummm..... what else. Play in all weather conditions and when it's a double header I want it to mean two games simultaneously on the same field. And free drinks for 3min after every walk. Gotta get the crowd into the chaos as well.
Might be that the solution is a lighter ball but keep the same size. A lighter ball will slow down faster before reaching the batter so speed wouldn't be as useful. Increasing the distance between the pitcher and the batter at the same time would also require a more technical pitcher than a faster pitcher. Of course it will also result in the ball not going as far when it's hit by the bat.
Table tennis rules changed in 2000, making the ball bigger. This was to slow it down as the sport had just become excessively fast. And it worked! I think it made table tennis way better. Perhaps baseball needs to do something similar since people are essentially becoming too good at throwing.
The pitcher would still throw with the same effort and force. This wouldn't reduce injury incidents, you're right about making it an easier ball to hit though.
@@Teckiels24You do realize that The doctor meant that by throwing so hard, the arm can’t handle it. Making the ball heavier will slow down velocity, but the players will try and use the same force and effort. For example. If you threw a baseball at 100 mph. It would have the same effects of trying to throw a heavy metal ball at 50 mph while doing the same mechanics. You misinterpreted the doctor.
@@CosmicStar3 blah, blah, blah there is zero science behind what you are saying. The only way to verify this is in real life, not a youtube comment section. For me personally, throwing a tennis ball hurts my elbow more than throwing a baseball which hurts more than throwing a softball. According to that doctor, it's the same for everyone, there is a limit to the amount of velocity (really acceleration) that your connective tissue can handle
Agree I have always felt it’s to much baseball and throwing at to young of an age. No reason for 8-13 year olds to be playing baseball year round. Once you hit high school maybe but not when so young and growing .
@@shawn-zx9xtagree with that as well These youth coaches want to win so they can build up their travel teams and brands. They could care less about a kids arm health.
@@user-dp5go8hr6w We weren't even allowed to practice certain pitches. Mind blowing what little league has turned into and what seemed to be common knowledge is completely gone and accepting of inevitable Tommy jon. Nolan Ryan existed before all this!
Im 22 now but when I was about 15 my little brother was on a state championship little league team and the pitcher was the best in the whole state throwing 70+mph at 12 yrs old and by the end of the season he was having full blown shoulder surgery and doc said he will probably never throw competitively again. 12 years old man, shoulder gone. Ive had injuries as well so it hits home to know these kids are training to hurt themselves. I know very little about baseball but it seems like we should force the pitchers to stay in even longer? Make it impossible to be throwing that fast all game and start teaching young children to throw the ball differently because fast isnt sustainable for a full game. Who knows, would like to see a change tho.
also Greg's teammate Jamie Moyer a great pitcher who started 2 years before Greg on the Cubs and finished his career all the way in 2010 throwing 70-80mph his entire career with great success
True enough. But also, people think of Maddux as a soft-thrower, when he was actually competitively fast. He was pitching fastballs in the low-90s, but that was with the old measuring system that measured at the plate. His actual throwing velocity at the arm was 94-95mph, so he still had some heat before throwing a 2-seamer or change-up that would be pinpointed while causing batters to buckle at the knees.
With all the injuries, hopefully the coaches and statisticians will realize that its more efficient to pitch with the goal of getting ground ball outs. Greg Maddux is the best pitcher I've ever seen for that reason. He was not afraid to let his defense do their jobs. He was not afraid of contact. That's why he could occasionally through complete games with only about 80 pitches. A one-pitch ground ball out with a 70 mph sinker gets the job done exactly as much as an 8-pitch strike out with 8 95+ mph fastballs and a couple balls and fouls, and is much better for your arm.
As a 19 year old, Ive seen kids in middle school throwing a full bag of pitches and topping out at 70-80 mph, that’s not good for their health as they are still growing
@Bottomoftheinning Greg Maddux didn't even throw soft. If you look at how hard he was throwing at his peak he threw about league average or slightly higher He only looks slow because everyone compares him to the other best pitchers of all time which tend to be guys who throw extremely hard
@@BottomoftheInningHow does throwing fastballs over 90 mph compare, injury-wise, with throwing breaking balls or knuckleballs? Are there different or more demanding mechanics in throwing any of those? They wanted more home runs so they shrunk the dimensions of the ballparks, didn’t they? I think the big parks were more exciting. If the game reduces down to primarily strikeouts, walks or HRs, it’s going to be dull. Side note: seeing home runs hit in person in the ballpark is much more thrilling than on TV. TV has the slow-motion replay, but watching a game in person is awesome. Well, if you have a nice crowd. When people get up 15 times during a game to walk in front of you to get more beer, it loses the magic.
I threw pitching camps and played ball all the time when young. I was throwing 75-78 when I was in middle school. This was over 30 years ago. Didn't hurt me. And I threw more pitches than most especially in games as I was a lefty with movement and would run counts up to setup hitters.
As a lifelong Texas Rangers fan I can think back to the time when they had 2 outstanding young pitching prospects in their farm system, Brian Allard and Danny Darwin.. I remember farm director Joe Klein talking about the fact that Danny Darwin's fastball had been clocked as high as 93 mph. A legit flame thrower. Things have changed a lot in the past 45 years 😅
The stat-based approach has also changed hitting itself. Stats have decided home runs are of ultimate value. Guys used to have all kinds of variation to their swing but now it seems like most guys have essentially the same swing: load up and try to sock a dinger every time. We used to call this the "hero cut" when I was a kid. Pitching is part of the big rise in K rates but so is this approach. Nobody wants to be Tony Gwynn or Wade Boggs these days.
This is a parroted point that I just don't think is true unless you are looking for it. The teams that go far in the playoffs and world series winners all have high batting averages and low strikeout rates aka not "hero cutting". Also there is still dudes Gwynnin and Boggin every year. Arraez on the Marlins hit .354 with 203 hits last year for example. Plenty of dudes still hit for average and are typically your leadoff/2 guys on the team. If you focus on dudes who consistently hit 3/4/5 in lineups, then launch angle hero cuts are obviously true, but it always has been since Ruth and Mantle lol.
@@Rudipuagreed. I think the k’s are as much about the pitching as anything. Also, the guys who are hitting 3/4/5 are usually able to hit for average and home runs.
@@RinslerRR I still think its just pitching. 20-30 years ago, your average dudes weren't throwing 95mph minimum with 12 inch+ breaking pitches outside of the aces. Now the 4 and 5 pitchers all have nasty stuff and it seems every guy out of the bullpen throws 98 with something gross on the side. I really do think with the "new" media focus on launch angle and WAR and OPS+, people are just projecting that all hitters care about is stats and sabremetrics say swing big or go home; when in reality it seems quite the opposite amongst most teams. If you focus on the Yankees/Dodgers, which are the only 2 teams in baseball according to a lot of networks, then yeah they load up on those kind of guys 1-9. The diamondbacks, astros, nationals, orioles, rays, guardians, royals all still hit to get on base with the traditional power dudes hitting in the middle. I don't really follow any teams closely outside of the whitesox and playoff teams, but I'm just not seeing dudes take these wild hacks and trying to get under the ball like I hear in the media all the time. You still even see guys choke up or take quicker swings on 2 strikes just like forever ago.
It's harder to get guys on base, so the value of a base hit isn't what it used to be since hitters are more often up with 1-2 outs and no one on base. I don't think swing angles are the problem. Matching the plane of the pitch makes you more likely to make contact, not less likely. Lower batting averages have to do with the increased skill of pitchers and very little with anything they're doing at the plate.
As a non-American who is not really baseball "fan" but is fascinated by it, I think this is the sort of game that gets its heart ripped out by professionalism and min-maxing more so that other games. Rules that force people to quit or stop them making money, stopping advertising, etc. might be ways of preventing boring theorycrafting and inhuman demands. Basically enforce amateurism, or change the physicality of it, use heavier balls or reduce the number of fielders, etc. etc.
Well, many of these pitchers who can throw 97mph fastballs also have problems locating the strike zone. They get their strikeouts but it may take 7 pitches to get that out. Over time that adds up, and teams don't want starters to throw more than 100 pitches per game.
In the 1970's, no pitcher who was the season leader threw less than 18 complete games. In the 21st century, no team has totaled more than 16 complete games in a season.
My favorite part of baseball is the pitching, the movement, the strategy, watching pitchers develop and change overtime...and now its all fastballs and injuries. I was in high school when Maddux was with the Cubs and watching him target pitches, pitches with movement was unbelievable.
Fastball usage is actually incrementally decreasing league-wide every year. Of course this won't do anything to help reduce injuries, only increase them as high spinrate and velocity are simultaneously the biggest attributes to having success as a pitcher and injuries.
"My favorite part of baseball is the pitching, the movement, the strategy, watching pitchers develop and change overtime" And it being the only thing that even happens in the game (other than people standing around fiddling with their gloves of course)
Unfortunately, the damage starts at a young age these days. Travel ball has gotten younger and more out of control. Parents living vicariously through their children pushing for them to be the absolute best 10 year old pitcher in their league for a relatively meaningless season in a declining game. I'm a nurse practitioner who has worked in orthopedics for the majority of my career now. I started in hand surgery, which is a misnomer because I really specialized in everything from the shoulder down. The reality is no kid should throw competitively year round. Pitchers should have at least 3 months of rest. If the kid plays catcher, then he really shouldn't be pitching and vice versa. Kid's should also continue to play more than one sport to develop other muscular groups, coordination and overall athleticism. We are also seeing an epidemic of ACL/Knee injuries in girls sports, particularly soccer and basketball because of a lack of development other actives use to provide to single sport kids. Girls sports really got the club game going and made single sport focus the fad that it's become. We are seeing this in almost every sport now, from the youth ranks through the pros. So many pro athletes can't stay healthy to save their lives. Look at what's happened to the running back position in professional football. They train year round. Our bodies were never designed to be that big, that fast and trained that relentlessly year round...then take the beating of an NFL season. Over training is a serious problem. I see athletic trainers doing this with their athletes constantly. If you want to build speed, you don't have the kids sprint at 100% any more than 2-3 days per week max. You should have them alternating speeds when they are training and progress through various intervals. Long story short, it's time to let kids be kids again. Encourage multiple sport participation and try to keep things fun. You don't have to throw hard to be a great pitcher. Teach them control, a good change up and to work the corners. Breaking pitches are unnecessary in the youth ranks. Stop letting uneducated coaches teach kids bad habits. I appreciate parents willing to volunteer their time but they should understand their limitations and not introduce techniques, habits or concepts they don't fully understand the consequences of (the curveball for example).
The sad truth is most of these coaches don't care about the kids futures they care about winning games so they use them and push them regardless of the damage it might do.
Another reason strikeouts keep going up is the approach hitters take. Many more hitters are swinging for the fences in situations where they didn't 30+ years ago. The majority of players used to shorten up and just try to put the ball in play with 2 strikes or hit behind the runner to move them to 3rd with less than 2 outs.
It's still early April and already two top tier pitchers have injured their elbow ligaments, Bieber and Strider. And Cole also had a scare. TJ surgery is becoming a plague among pitchers.
This is why when I pitch during pickup baseball I don’t throw fastballs and don’t use my pointer finger when I throw curve balls. I only use my middle finger to throw curve balls. The muscle that goes around human elbows is connected to the pointer finger. When you use the pointer finger, the muscle that provides the bulk of the power is this muscle. When it tears the resulting surgery needed to heal it is Tommy John surgery. If you don’t use this muscle, you won’t lose this muscle or injure this muscle.
This point is parroted so much and I just don't find it to be true. Yeah if you focus on guys that typically hit 4/5 (power hitters) its true, but its always been true back to the 50s lol. The teams that always go deep in the playoffs and win the world series always are in the top end of batting average and low end of strikeouts. The exception being the Braves in 21 who had high average, high SO. There is certainly a higher focus on launch angles in broadcasts in recent years after a homerun, but I would hardly call it a plague affecting baseball. Still plenty of run manufacturing done around the league, especially amongst the better teams.
So why were games well under 3 hours in the 70's, 80's and decades prior? The fact that some pitchers were taking a minute in between pitches was ridiculous. There were batters that stepped out and readjusted their batting gloves after taking a pitch and not even swinging. BTW, the pitch clock is not a new rule in baseball, it's a very old rule that was never enforced and the technology (lack of) made it difficult to ever follow through with it. The pitch clock is not the problem, although it should not be decreased any. MLB needs to leave it and not shorten the time in between pitches even more. Years ago pitchers pitched well over 100 pitches a game and went well past 5 innings a game. Today we see the "magic" number 100 and when that started, it was the ruination of pitchers. Now we have pitchers that are tired after 5 innings and if they go longer, the manager usually takes them out as soon as they are near 100 pitches. Combine pitchers not being stretched out to go past 100 pitches regularly, add in increased velocity and take into account the fact that pitchers are adding new pitches to their repertoire, and you have a recipe for disaster. Pitchers need to tone down the velocity a little bit, be stretched out to go past 100 pitches and be allowed to pitch past 5 or 6 innings regularly. Pitchers did it years ago and they didn't "burn out" and they definitely didn't suffer injuries the way we are seeing today. We are seeing far too many specialists in baseball pitching and it's created a lack of arm stamina for pitchers. No more limit of 100 pitches and no more pulling pitchers out after 5 or 6 innings. Keep the pitch clock, maybe add a couple of seconds and leave the other new rules in place and we will continue to see the return of fans to baseball. Hopefully, it will one day be our "National Pastime" once again. Besball has been berry, berry, good to me.
This is probably the best analysis of the problem I have seen to date. One thing was missing. As a pitcher when you know that at 100 or basically the third time around you are done. So you throw as hard as you can for that short amount of time. If you know that you will pitch as long as you are effective, mentally you know you need to pace. Sort of like the difference between running a mile and a marathon.
You answered your own question when you brought up pitchers pitching well over 100 pitches. The pitch clock was brought in to counter the dozens of pitching changes per game that slowed the game to a crawl.
I have to say, as an ortho resident, the whole "short recovery" leading to increased tendon/ligament injury makes little sense. Injuries of this nature are mostly commonly acute, traumatic (think a football player who gets his knee bent the wrong way by a hit) or long term wear and tear. The wear and tear injuries have a a large amount variability in terms of what the major factors have the greatest influence and current research has yet to produce a complete/conclusive model. While my research has been focused on ACL repair, so I'm not an expert when it comes to UCL, the time in between reps should not be a factor unless it leads to a severe breakdown in form. The muscle ligaments are not themselves metabolically active and thus don't have the potential to "recover" in the sense a muscle would. In my opinion, the way pitchers are gripping the ball so tightly to produce the higher spin rates is the most impactful on UCL injury rates. I'm sure velocity is a factor, however, I think if you investigated it be more related to the pitchers mechanics. Again I have not personally conducted any UCL research so this is just my two-sense based on my general MSK knowledge. I think its also worth noting that UCL injuries were already rising prior to the introduction to the pitch clock (I think the pitchers are just using this as an excuse to get rid of it personally).
If his fastball is 99-102mph, a 90mph pitch would have the same effectiveness as a 95mph fastballer throwing an 87mph changeup. It's not about throwing soft, but throwing softer to disrupt the rhythm. The real craziness is with the 94-96mph sliders.
Dude all these radar gun readings are elevated by 2-3 MPH compared to pre 2010s even. At least pre 2000s for sure. They’re measuring velo now to show maximum pitch speed since viewers are obsessed with stuff like that. Makes their current players look better.
@@HT-sm9dm I have no idea how true this is but I heard the shift was from measuring the velocity at the point of where the pitcher is releasing vs the speed of the ball when crossing home plate like it used to be. Not sure if that's true or not though. I think it was in a documentary I saw about Nolan Ryan.
The 3 True Outcomes: watching 2 guys play catch, another guy stand between them waving a stick, and 7 other guys standing around scratching their butts
Days are gone The Fing Royals made the WS in 2014 hitting like 98 total hr's that season. Then again their D and pitching lead the way but damn they played small ball well
@@Michael-sb8jf Haha, 2014 world series, the Royals and Giants, neither team known for their incredible power. And of the three teams the Giants faced in the World Series this century, the only one they didn't dominate was the timely/contact hitting team..
The biggest reason pitches are faster now is because back in the day they measured it near home plate now it is when it leaves the hand. Same as home runs. The outfield been moved in. The players today wouldn’t even be near Babe Ruth, Mantle or Han Aaron’s. Today they should all have an * by the record so you can reference how much easier it is.
This may be counterintuitive, but what's needed is a heavier workload on starting pitchers. The mentality now is throw as hard as you can for as long as you can, then let the next guy come in and do the same thing. If you're expecting the starter to go at least seven innings, and, yes, even complete a few games, this forces the starter to pace himself, to find a comfortable working speed, getting outs with location and movement, then reach back for that little extra when needed. 120 pitches at 80% effort is going to do less arm damage than 70-80 pitches at 100%. The counterargument I hear all the time is "But the hitters now are too good, everybody in the lineup can hit a home run, you need to go all out with every batter." First of all, we need to get rid of the DH, the opposing pitcher's at bat provides a much-needed break. Second, a slower pitch is harder to take deep than a faster one, the batter needs to generate more bat speed instead of letting the pitcher do all the work. This means that a pitcher who can change velocity can make a batter who is only interested in home runs look awfully foolish. I would propose requiring a pitcher to remain in the game (barring injury) for at least six innings while the possibility of a quality start still exists. I would also change the three batter minimum to requiring the reliever to remain in the game until either the end of the inning or until a run scores, this could be one batter, or it could be four of five. Seems more natural than an artificial arbitrary number. To me fewer pitchers equals better pacing, which leads to fewer injuries, and also leads to more exciting (i.e. less TTO) baseball.
So basically the Japanese way. Starting pitchers are considered warriors over there. Pitchers at the top of the rotation are expected to give as little work for their bullpens as possible in their start days, or even a day off, even if it costs a few earned runs and winning decisions for said top pitchers.
Im sorry but no. If you look at the stats for hitters on their third time facing the same pitcher their OBP is easily over 400 so its just dumb to make pitchers pitch Also the thing about making the pitcher do the work is only true to a point. If you look at the data there are barely any HR hit off of super hard fastballs because of how much vertical movement they have. Just because its "slow" for mlb standards doesn't mean the ball still won't fly off the bat because its going 90 mph
@@cubsfanman-nx6pg The thing about stats is that they are only numbers. If pitchers throw as hard as they can, they are typically starting to tire out by the third time through. If they paced a bit they would still have their stuff.
@@matthewgreiner2766 Or they'd be pulled from the game two innings earlier because they'd have given up 5 runs and a dozen hits because they were throwing softer, easier to hit pitches. This has been an arms race for a long time, and just remember: 2023's runs/game was at the same rate as it was in 2002, during the Steroid Era. Batters have gotten a whole lot better over the years, pitching has pulled ahead by a bit with the focus on spin rates and velocity, but not by all that much.
As a big MLB Fan, this season has been so frustrating. I'm sick of seeing endless strikeouts and weak contact. Almost all batters better swing at that first pitch if it's a strike because once you get 2 strikes you've basically had it with the spin rate, movement that the pitchers have now.
As of writing this (mid-June 2024) all 8 of the "great pitchers" mentioned at the end are on the long-term IL or just coming back from long IL stints, many of them with TJ-type injuries, and 3 of them on their second TJ.
Yeah, pitching may reach a point where throwing harder has diminishing returns if the injuries reduce longevity to a certain point. In the NFL, this point is kinda moot since longevity is so short, esp for RB. Maybe the demand for throwing faster will mean salaries are so high that pitches still go for it. Luckily for the sport, the best pitchers are not always the hardest throwing. There will always be a place for the artful pitcher who finds a way, whether by changing speeds/planes/arm angle or whatever, finds a way to mess the batter up consistently.
@@joelwexler Maddux would absolutely still be fine, he was adaptable and crafty af. All pitchers are products of their time, they use what works. If Maddux came nowadays, he would adapt to what gets major league hitters out. I mean, Lance Lynn and Mark Buehrle also had success in recent seasons. Greinke, Kuchel, Ryu, Glavine, Schilling late in his career. You also have to remember that bullpens can be more successful when put out relievers with contrasting pitching styles. Tampa Bay has been great at that, having all sorts of weird arm angles, and styles of pitchers. I highly doubt that pitchers could reach 120mph without the aid of performance enhancing drugs or some future type of surgery. And if the injuries to pitchers continue to get worse, I don’t think all pitchers would just blindly push forward with this trend of “lift heavier, throw harder”. Pitchers are more cerebral than on average than other baseball players and wouldn’t want to just play two seasons throwing extreme gas then not being able to throw anymore.
@@joelwexler The army is already using those existing-skeleton type braces on the legs/hips of soldiers to let them lift heavier weights with ease. But the rotator cuff is the most complex joint in the body. There is no surgery possible at the moment to repair a torn rotator cuff while preserving the range of motion, and that range of motion is crucial for pitching. The elbow is a simpler joint and even then, pitchers can only really have two Tommy John surgeries and after that, when the elbow is done, they retire. Therefore, it’s super unlikely we’ll see any sort of surgery that would allow super-human rotator cuff strength. The complex anatomy of that joint may be one of the main factors in limiting how hard pitchers can throw. It’s interesting regardless, who knows what kinda training or technique future players might come up with. Right now, seems like Japan might be producing the best pitchers. The way Yamamoto throws heat with his stature, effortless delivery. And the way Japanese pitchers use sinkers, which might be the pitch of 2024. They seem to know what’s up when it comes to pitching mechanics!
@@ThomasPoorman they could do that but word would spread about that sort of pitching culture and it would hurt the team. If all teams do that then it’s more a players union issue. The league is taking notice of the injury trend, I hope they take it seriously and find some solutions. Sadly, MLB reallly loves to pimp the flamethrowers as a draw since they are worried about baseball being too boring.
Thanks for the video, great info. One important thing to consider regarding the higher strikeout rate is the impact of the change in hitting philosophy over the years to focus on launch angle and "full swings" regardless of the count. Admittedly I don't have sources on this and I don't know exactly when this trend started, but there has been a shift in mindset and today guys are trying to knock every single pitch out of the park all the time. No matter the count, the swings seem to be all about power and very little about bat control and there seems to be no accountability for the resulting higher strikeout rates at all. This doesn't offset your points about pitching getting too good, but this shift in hitting mindset is definitely isn't helping with strikeout rates at all.
You can also see this trend in the amount of home runs being hit as well. From the 90's on, home runs have been steadily rising along with the pitch speed metrics. You could also argue the hotter on average games have become, the higher the average bat exit speed velocity. There are so many factors, but the game has certainly changed from chess-like pitching strategy to brute force; more strikeouts and more home runs.
Baseball in this century has become increasingly unwatchable. For years every sports writer mentioned how long the games were getting, without mentioning how obvious the reason was: pitchers were taking ages to pitch. Guys like Papelbon were among the worst offenders, taking 15 minutes to throw 15 pitches. And the result: strikeout after strikeout after strikeout. Thanks, but these 3.5 hours on a Sunday afternoon can be spent doing something else. So to the pitchers complaining about the pitch clock: you brought this on yourselves. Go back to a recording of games in the 1960’s through most of the 1990’s, and watch how quickly the pitchers worked.
My 10 year old son is his 12u and 10u teams best pitcher. I was not a “baseball dad.” We were a football family. But he was good at baseball so I let him play it but never would do the traveling teams. Just his regular team, until I was talked into letting him “play up” when he was 8 years old on a 10u team. And that’s when I saw how bad it can get. Again my kid was 8. And I didn’t know shit about baseball, and this team was a middle of the road team who had a very nice guy for head coach. A guy I was friends with from way back. However, after their older pitcher kept having mental meltdowns and the other older pitcher couldn’t throw a strike to save his life, he called on my son. That was the very first game of the season. My son pitched in every single game the rest of the season but 2. The pitch count was not changed for his age, and even if it was, an 8 year old should not be throwing 85 pitches a game every 2-3 days. At the time I didn’t know, I just was happy for my boy to be pitching and overcoming nervousness of throwing to kids much older and bigger then he. But then a few months after the season ended, he played football, and was quarterback, and that’s when the pain started. Long story short luckily for us the doctor caught it in time and we rested him and his arm the rest of the year while doing intense rehab. I let him play baseball still, but his coaches are now told by me that he does not throw over 50 pitches ever, and if he’s throwing, he’s getting a full 4 days rest. Dont let these coaches fuck your kids up
This is a great video and I understand the point you are making with Maddux as he had incredible command of and movement on all of his pitches, but there is a bit of revisionist history with him going on in general. I'm not just talking about your video, but about the way that people speak about him in general. There's this myth of him as some bespectacled, professorial pitching genius who never threw hard. He was not, for the prime of his career when he was an elite pitcher (probably the very best pitcher in baseball), some soft-tossing starter. The dude had a notably above average fastball for his entire peak by the standards of that era. He was touching 94 or 95 and sitting at 92 or 93 with his fastball when the league average fastball for right-handed starters was barely 90. He wasn't Randy Johnson, but the guy threw hard enough to blow it by you if you tried to sit on his slower stuff. It was absolutely a key part of how he got guys out. His velocity allowed his breaking ball and changeup to be more deceptive because he had enough juice to force people to get ready for the fastball. When he lost velocity he became less deceptive and he was just average or maybe a tick above as a pitcher. His command and movement are what separated him from other guys who threw similarly hard or harder, but if he'd always just been a soft-tosser then he'd be a pretty average or maybe slightly above-average starter.
Modern scouts aren't as concerned about pitch speed as they are SPIN Rate. And although they are connected in some ways, most scouts would take a guy who can spin the ball at an elite levelover a flaming fastball. Unless the guy is touching triple digits without maximum exertion, they only care that they can locate their fastball because every MLB hitter can hit just about any fastball.
You also need to know that the way the pitch speed is measured. The pitches used to be measured 10 ft from the plate, now it's 50 ft from the plate. An 85 mph pitch in 1980 was actually low 90s.
That is irrelevant. He didn’t mention velocity from the 1980s for comparison. You were just looking for a reason to mention that erroneous point. Way to go
Jamie Moyer played until he was 49 years old while remaining healthy for the majority of 25 seasons....his career average fastball velo was 81.6 mph. Yet when he was asked what made him effective for so long he didn't say his breaking pitches or changeup.... he said it was his ability to change velo on his fastball. My point is that even though he couldn't overpower you throwing his hardest, he was still willing to take some off and throw an 80% fb knowing it was the change of pace that would keep hitters from sitting on his fb. Velo is cool and fun to watch but the increasing reliance on it is dangerous to the health of pitchers and makes the odds of seeing another Jamie Moyer slim to none. I spent most of my 20's as a scout then crosschecker for a certain NL organization...my job was to go out and find hard throwing pitchers with high spin rates knowing damn well they'd nearly all be under the knife within the first 18 months of turning pro (especially the hard throwing high schoolers). MLB teams were and still are willing to take that risk by stocking their organization with hard throwers bc "speed kills" and if one goes down they'll just bring up the next. The art of pitching is dying and longevity is becoming a thing of the past. It's easy to blame youth/travel baseball organizations, velo training, year round baseball, etc but they are only placing emphasis on velo and spin bc MLB organizations did it first. it's sad, but it's just a reflection of what they are seeing at the highest levels of the sport.
Correct me if wrong, the power pitching movement is a response to the steroids era offense, and the TTO increase is the attempt to improve run production in response to the power pitching movement. Just the fact that teams across the board are putting more power arms on their roster probably means it's easier to throw max effort right down the middle and get away with it than finesse your way to get outs, though I don't have the data to back this up. All sports are trending towards higher efficiency, not just baseball.
I heard about this problem years ago. The main solution I heard proposed was about moving the plate back so the ball had to travel farther, giving batters a better fighting chance vs. these lightning fast pitchers. Otherwise baseball becomes a giant snoozefest that's not fun to play and even less fun to watch.
The most dominating pitcher in my little league was a curveball thrower. Dominated. But, moving up to Babe Ruth league, mound was further back, and he couldn't compete. HIs arm was curved from throwing too many curve balls, and they told kids just throw fastballs. We all wear out, and if you overuse, you get injured. Year-round baseball is bad, and most get sick of the game. Ban travel teams, let more kids from other side of the street play, since baseball looks like the Masters Tournament.
A lot of this is the way hitters are scouted as well; The era your assessing corresponds with the death of the contact hitter, and the death in the minor league system of teaching hitters to be able to take an approach and choose where they hit the ball [forcing defenses to defend the whole field].These two changes in scouting have ruined baseball as an entertainment product by producing endless strikeout/homerun situation. If you go back and watch tape of playoff baseball from the "before times", you'll quickly conclude that the players trained in the 80's had whole different skillsets that would give absolute fits to unprepared modern teams. It's very unclear to me how teams from these different eras would interact in direct competition, but it is clear that teams from previous eras would totally shock modern teams in how they played.
Pitchers are also being taught an increased assortment of pitches, which places extra stress on the arm. Where once the average starting pitcher threw a fastball, a curve, a slider and a change-up, it's common now to see someone feature six or eight pitches. This is what team scouts and management are looking for. And of course, as this video points out, emphasizing sheer velocity and developing training regimens to achieve increases in that department brings young prospects closer to the threshold of injury.
I feel that a big cause for the increase in strike outs is the poor decision making of strikers. A point is a point, and no matter how good of a striker you are, you can't hit every ball for a home run.
I loved "Whitey Ball" in St. Louis back in the 80s. Bunts, double steals, hit and run. That was exciting baseball to watch. But Sabermetrics says those things don't pay off, even though the Cardinals went to the World Series three times in the 80s. I quit watching long ago.
I dont feel fortunate. I feel bored. No one tunes in to watch pitching. We want to see homeruns, hits, runs scored. Baseball has become exceedingly tedious. Solution is very simple. Just force starting pitchers to go 7 innings minimum. Watch them reduce their velocity to last longer.
I have the solution. First, limit teams to ten pitchers, and eliminate the practice of calling up a pitcher to start one game, then sending him back to the minors. Also, require that any pitcher called to the majors must remain on the roster for two weeks. Finally, allow position players to pitch only in extremely lopsided games. This will result in pitchers having to pitch a lot more innings, therefore conserving themselves and not throwing so hard. This will mean fewer injuries, and less pitcher domination. They might also consider what they did in 1969, and lower the mound a bit. And I would eliminate every rule change that has occurred during the Manfred regime. He has done nothing, absolutely nothing, for the game, with two exceptions. He got us a season in 2020, and he managed to get a CBA. Other than that, the man has done nothing but damage this great game. I'd love to see them go back to 1970. No Designated Hitter, which is an abomination, and no second place teams in the post season. I could go on! Excellent, informative video!
I don't even watch baseball or know anything about it, but it's really funny to me that the solution the officials put out was basically "You wanna injure yourself and hurt your career with these inhuman throws? Fucking go ahead, see if I care"
this also spills into the realm of pro disc golf. pros like Eagle McMahon and Paul McBeth have already had surgery before the age of 30. becoming too common in recent years
The documentary Fastball noted that the human eye is not fast enough to focus, predict where the ball is going, and get the bat on the ball from 60' 6" away (it's closer than that when measured from the release point). Most 100+ mph pitches are out of the strike zone, so, unless the hitter has two strikes, if they sense the pitch is that fast, they should just let it go - easier said than done. However, if the documentary is right and 100 mph becomes more common with accuracy, the solution might be to move the mound back.
I played year round travel ball from 8 years old to 16. I would pitch at least one complete game a weekend, and there were no pitch limits for travel ball at the time. When I was 12 I started going to PT for numbness in my elbow but pushed through the pain. Then I had labrum surgery when I was 15 and couldn’t throw well anymore. My velo was up to 85 when I was 15 before my final injury. Do not pitch year round, and focus on good mechanics and strength training.
When golfers starting hitting farther courses like Augusta moved the tee boxes back. Does the mlb need too do the same and move the mound back? Would that help?
Baseball is the only sport where players are encouraged (implicitly demanded) to go max effort 100% of the time. This is the fault of the general managers and the head coaches who have essentially told amateur pitchers that the only way to get to the show is to push their arms to an unhealthy degree.
Most people look at baseball as a bunch of guys standing around for 3 hours with a few spurts of action and lots of spitting. I get it, when they’re playing they are at 100%.
just started watching MLB this year and my eyes are glued to Yamamoto. He's 3 games into the season and I think he's doing okay. I get excited whenever he gets a strikeout, there's this thrill when he gets the batter with his splitter/curveball. I was always wondering why something feels lacking whenever I watch full matches, then I realized, from a batter fans' point of view, it gets kinda boring if the batters keep on getting striked out. But it's also fun when the entire stadium screams if people go run for the bases or try to steal one. I also remember that game where Ichiro threw a ball to the third base, outing the runner, that was crazy. Seeing this video got me worried, saying how there's more strikeouts than hits and the TTOs are getting higher compared to the previous years. Hope everything goes well for the MLB (sorry if I didn't get some of the technical words right lol)
I remember in high school my buddies younger brother had a 87 mph fastball. He pitched left handed. He was right handed. He was saving his right arm for college lol. Ended up getting burnt out on baseball and gave it up to join the military and get married. Always wondered what could have been b it in any case I think he has a happier life now.
There's this Korean pitcher who throws like average 85 miles fastball, but he won 100 games in his career and somehow tricked the umps with his breaking balls getting unreal strikeouts. He never got into a serious injury but still was one of the greatest. +of course in the Korean league, and he was never tested in a world cup due to his slow speed.
The game has totally changed from its origins. Baseball originally centered around fielding and baserunning. Pitchers were supposed to serve the ball up to get hit, then the defense jumped into action.
I've said this for many years. Pull back the pitcher's mound distance from home plate at least 5-10 feet to facilitate more play on the field while decreasing the innings from 9 to 7 for time constraints. Baseball has devolved into just a pitcher/batter duel when viewers really want to see home runs and more action on the field. At the end of the day, if the game is not entertaining for the fans, it will die off and that is what we are witnessing. Too many diehard fans stuck to tradition and resistant to change will kill it off in my opinion.
First off baseball isn't dying. Its extremely popular in Japan and pretty much every Latin American country. Not everyone wants to see more balls in play. Maybe some do but in my opinion a rollover to third base is way more boring than a strikeout on a filthy curveball I agree with the pace of play but shortening the innings wouldn't help at all. The problem is that 9 innings used to take 2 hours and now it takes 3. We still want 9 innings but we dont want it to take 3 hours
There is one universal truth in baseball. Fans love it when their team scores, especially when a player hits a home run. There is nothing wrong with being a pitcher and having good innings, but when you have a game where both teams are not scoring runs this puts more pressure on the pitchers and the fans will lose interest since no offense is being produced. It is insane the amount of Tommy John surgeries over the years and it doesn't seem like it will stop anytime soon.
It would likely increase contact rates on fastballs, however with today’s breaking balls it might be even more difficult to hit. Imagine what these pitches can do with these spin rates with a few opportunities for revolutions
@@supergaga1712 Wouldn’t that also increase the occurrence of balls too though? Or do you think they’d be able to keep it in the strike zone (or make batters swing and miss) from further out while simultaneously making it more ambiguous to hit?
Really shows how Nolan Ryan was in a good way a freak. One thing I must point out is how important leg strength is with pitching (or most athletic endeavors). Ryan stressed that a lot during his pitching days.
Just now getting back into baseball after being benched and told to quit my high school baseball team with a .380 batting average and .750 on base % for “not making plays” on third base with nothing coming my way with our pitchers Post vent, love me stats because you can see so much of the story by watching the numbers and you get things like this video
What is crazy is Leo Mazzonne the former Braves pitching coach. Had the pitchers doing more on their off days than any other coach in the history of the game, but those horses he had never got hurt. I think it is several things causing the injuries, the commissioner is clueless to think it is just one thing causing it.
Just to let you know... at the (about 2015) mark, the radar guns stopped reading the ball as it crossed the plate or was midway to home plate (sometimes, this inconsistency is what caused 102 MPH deliveries and 86 mph delivers. After that time period, one saw the velocities go SUBSTANTIALYY upwards. The reason? DSIMPLE< the Juggs guns (et al.) started measuring the ball coming out of the pitchers'' HANDS, not at or on thew way to home plate and the balls had not had time to slow down all that much as with balls delivered to the plate or halfway on their way TO THE PLATE. Think that I am kidding? Go look at that period of time, pitchers throwing 'GAS' at 91mph came back just a matter of a few seasons later throwing 97-98 mph. The SOLE reason was wear the radar gun measured the pitch. At the plate, and on the way from the mound to the plate was 7-9 % slower in velocity than when the pitch was actually first turned loose. That was where the sudden increasing of velocity came into being. Yes, the athlete's got better, trained better, etc., but not a 7-9% increase -- in just a few years. It was solely limited to the point at which velocity was measured i.e., right out of the hand, or at the batter's box.
The increase of velocity has nothing to do with players throwing harder its because of the stitching of the ball. It's tighter now compared to before. Meaning there is last drag. This also means pitchers must put more torch on the ball when throwing breaking balls hence the increase in injuries.
Can't say but I've watched many a game where the pitcher tried putting the batter and the crowd to sleep. Gibson, Ryan, seaver all worked quick. It's more the emphasis on hard throwing is more to blame.
I read that, regarding pitching injuries, a major contributing factor is that youth sports has gotten freakin' ridiculous. There are more games in more leagues that kids play in, even aside from their school teams. By the time they reach the majors, they've already thrown thousands of pitchers more than, say, Sandy Koufax did at the point he hit the majors.
I think the one of the issue with these arm injuries is pitch counts. I remember when I was young growing up in the 80s and 90s I threw everyday all day long. And I was 145 lb kid that threw in the mid to low 80s. I never had no issues with my arm. But I literally threw every single day as much as I possibly could I loved it. But I also learned how to use the bigger core muscles in my body and not just my arm. I was fortunate with a little league coach that was a firm believer in hip to shoulder separation. Use your bigger core muscles to throw not your arm It's very poor pitching mechanics and people's arms are not use to throwing so much all the time because they limit them so much.
With max effort velo, spin rates, and wiffs being the main commodity scouts look for, and more teams trending towards developing pitchers to maximize those skills I don't see how this is going to get any better in the future. Especially when pitching to contact is artificially made harder via the shift restrictions, teams that stress pitching over throwing and keeping their guys healthy in lieu of high strikeout rates are always going to lose. It's not something the league can regulate either and I wouldn't want them to. I already hate pitch timers and shift restrictions, if the league proposes a 'speed limit' of sorts to keep guys healthy it will be the last nail in the coffin to killing the game.
The reason they’re looking for pitch speed is because it’s by far the most important attribute. They know that the only irreplaceable trait in a pitcher is their speed. Speed is everything. The faster the pitch gets, the closer it comes to being unreactable. With every mph faster that the pitch gets, the difficulty of hitting it goes up exponentially because a faster ball comes closer to approaching the limit of human reaction time, which is the only part of the pitch that truly has no counter play. All other aspects of pitching can be adjusted to or practiced for, this isn’t the case with reaction time. A blistering pitch is the greatest equalizer in baseball, and nothing can change that until humans get robotic nervous systems.
this is why cricket is better for entertainment, and injury. Speed isn't the only thing that gets wickets. And then the bowling action doesn't strain muscles, tendons and ligaments, and injuries while bowling are kinda unheard of.
Cricket is fascinating. For baseball, it's the popular Commonwealth version of the sport that Americans ignore, for Darts, it's the more popular (but still not) American version of the sport that the Commonwealth nations ignore.
@@DerekCroxtonWestphalia Hundreds of millions of people watch many 5 day test matches every year. Just because you don't think you would watch a game that spans multiple days, doesn't mean others don't. Millions do. For many countries this is the national sport, with the national first grade teams being very well liked and watched.
Thank's everyone for the support on the video! Means a lot to me. If you enjoyed it, please subscribe for future videos! This channel is just getting started. The storytelling and editing will only get better!
Why not change your channel name to Top of the Inning?
So basically, a stupid and boring game is getting even more stupid and boring.
No. The word is LOCATION, not accuracy. How to say you don't know baseball without saying you don't know baseball.
I dunno if you’re trying to drag the video out, but listing off every number for all these things is really tedious and turned me off to this channel…just make a freakin plot or graphic and show it a few seconds, focus on the analysis rather than droning off a list of numbers in repeating the same sentence structure - it’s mind numbing.
Similar to 1968, after which the mound was lowered.
I pitched since I was 11. At 14-15 I was throwing around 75. I moved, and joined a rec league because tryouts were already finished. Because of my velo I was pitching most games and despite the pitch cap, throwing at my max velo every game screwed me up so badly. Rotator cuff issues, shoulder blade issues, forearm issues, and eventually weakness, numbness, tremoring, pins and needles in my finger tips. I was told after seeing a sports doc that I had a hole through the middle of my UCL (Tommy john). Take care of yourselves out there guys, don't throw junk while you're still growing, and don't overtrain and over practice. Just because you're told you can pitch 4 innings doesn't mean you always should. Health before wealth, I don't wish my arm issues on anyone.
_'4 innings'_ ?! *LOL* It was a rare occasion indeed when I failed to go the full regulation 6(LL) or 7(high school, Babe Ruth L, Thoroughbred L) often continuing into extra innings if the situation called for it and I threw pretty much nothing but "heat". Unless , I just didn't "have it" that day - for whatever reason - it *never* occurred to me or anyone else that I'd relinquish the ball without finishing what I'd started...for what; some bum worse than me to assume the mound and procced to destroy all of my hard work? Sidenote: I HATED pitching, didn't have the patience, mentality or temperament for it ..did it only because coaches and teammates begged me to ..would much rather have spent my time roaming the outfield even strapping on the ol' "tools of ignorance" and crouching behind the plate was more appealing than having to worry about pitching out of the stretch, keeping runners close to the bag, a batter's profile(strengths and weaknesses)
Anyway, never had any "issues" with my arm and I was hardly refined in my approach(never considered myself much more than a "thrower" as opposed to a true practitioner of the art; a "pitcher" in other words) flirted with 90 at my peak. I can attribute my success to either dumb luck in the genetic draw or the "gods" having mercy on me
@@tommyriam8320 you wrote a whole essay just to laugh at me for saying you don't always have to pitch 4 innings when you're at you're at an age where you're told not to mess up your arm LOL. okay buddy, your high school games aren't worth injuring yourself over. maybe to you they are.
@@domz1781 _'[I]wrote a whole essay just to'_ lament the lost art and craft of pitching in the modern game of baseball.
Everybody and their brother throws 98+. Even guys coming out of the bullpen I've never heard of.
You’d probably enjoy the anime ”Major”
Lotta factors here -- I also think when pitch count became demonized for pitcher health and longevity, it encouraged pitchers to redline every pitch. Back when starters were going deep into games every start they weren't going all out on every fastball they threw.
They should be like in F1, you can change the pitcher if it get an injury, but the team gets a penalty. I am sure they will trade off speed for less injury to avoid penalties. Just like in F1 they now build robust reliable engines over more powerfull ones (but less reliable) just to avoid penalties
Yes they were watch the greatest years of pitching the 60s!!!
I feel a big part is this new age of biomechanics where people try to mold their mechanics to what’s “ideal” for velocity and it’s not natural to them. Some people are just not born to be able to throw that hard for a long period of time
You also have life long pitchers. This is akin to the medieval archers spending decades building their body for the longbow.
Nolan Ryan said he got a strong arm throwing newspapers as a kid.
This gotta be true,
I was a sophomore in HS throwing upper 60's and by my senior year I was peaking 80MPH, as a sophomore i had VERY good accuracy but it was the speed that kept me from varsity despite going 22.1 innings without allowing a walk on JV. Senior year started rocky with my 2nd game I allowed 9ER, then the next game I had to pitch is when I "learned to pitch" I had to face the defending state champions, had to have a different approach, I did, I knew I couldn't power through em so I had to read each batters stance and find the hole to get an out, 3 k's 1 BB, 3 H, 2 ER, probably around 60 pitches in the CG. My senior year I had a lot of games where I pitched 100+, including an extras game where i pitched 8 innings, 2er in the 1st, no hits the next 7 ,1 BB
my last start before college was my PR at 13 k's in 6 innings, 2ER, 1BB, CG around 90 pitches
Speed is NOT key, the ability to read the batter and understand their motion can help you out a lot whether you want a strike or a ground out
I always followed a natural motion while pitching even though my throwing arm goes way behind my back, like if my arms were at 210 degrees
@@CoVaultme when I play mlb the show
For real. Chasing velocity and spin rate is killing these kids arm.
I have been watching baseball since the 1950s. Yeah, I'm old. Baseball did the right thing, putting a clock in the game. It offsets players stepping out of the batter's box after every pitch to adjust their batting gloves, which we not worn "back in the day". If baseball wanted to make the game truly exciting, they would move the mound back 10 feet and move the fences back 50 feet. The game would be so full of action that they would have to make it an every-other-day sport due to player fatigue. Actually, baseball expert George Will has said that the mound should be moved back, I don't think he was talking about 10 feet, but move it back a couple of feet anyway.
I'm just hoping bananaball will take flight
the mound doesn't need to be moved back, just flattened a little, accomplishes the same goal.
I don’t know. Distances are sacred in baseball. 90 feet between bases is the soul of perfection. But fence distance is fluid. I agree we need more spacious outfields for more exciting games.
baseball looked into this. Theo Epstein said that moving the mound back will cause more issues with sliders and curveballs since they will drop more.
A more simpler solution would be to limit the number of pitchers in a game to 3-4 to force starting pitchers to go longer. It will bring down the velocity and let batters see pitchers the 3rd time through when the batting averages go up by 100 points.
Make the ball out rubber, add pot holes to the outfield, hurdles between 1st 2nd and 3rd, hitting a home run adds a second ball into play like pinball till your side is out, pitcher has to throw both balls at once, put a slip and slide into home and sure let's make it 800 feet to each corner of the outfield and 1000 in the middle.
Ummm..... what else. Play in all weather conditions and when it's a double header I want it to mean two games simultaneously on the same field.
And free drinks for 3min after every walk. Gotta get the crowd into the chaos as well.
12:05
He gives 5 examples of veteran pitchers "dominating lineups" and ALL FIVE are injured now.
Shit... lmao
Every single pitcher he mentioned is injured right now, including the young guys
I honestly don't know why he included Manoah when he struggled the entirety of last season lol
Might be that the solution is a lighter ball but keep the same size. A lighter ball will slow down faster before reaching the batter so speed wouldn't be as useful. Increasing the distance between the pitcher and the batter at the same time would also require a more technical pitcher than a faster pitcher.
Of course it will also result in the ball not going as far when it's hit by the bat.
@@derekwong1356 Manoah got roughed up by a Single A team during rehab a week ago.
Table tennis rules changed in 2000, making the ball bigger. This was to slow it down as the sport had just become excessively fast. And it worked! I think it made table tennis way better. Perhaps baseball needs to do something similar since people are essentially becoming too good at throwing.
Just oil the ball😂
The pitcher would still throw with the same effort and force. This wouldn't reduce injury incidents, you're right about making it an easier ball to hit though.
@@Christopher_S7:43 "velocity itself is a risk factor for injury" I'll go with the doctor's opinion on this one, sorry random youtube guy
@@Teckiels24You do realize that The doctor meant that by throwing so hard, the arm can’t handle it. Making the ball heavier will slow down velocity, but the players will try and use the same force and effort.
For example. If you threw a baseball at 100 mph. It would have the same effects of trying to throw a heavy metal ball at 50 mph while doing the same mechanics.
You misinterpreted the doctor.
@@CosmicStar3 blah, blah, blah there is zero science behind what you are saying. The only way to verify this is in real life, not a youtube comment section. For me personally, throwing a tennis ball hurts my elbow more than throwing a baseball which hurts more than throwing a softball. According to that doctor, it's the same for everyone, there is a limit to the amount of velocity (really acceleration) that your connective tissue can handle
what's harming pro pitchers is playing baseball year round as youths
Agree
I have always felt it’s to much baseball and throwing at to young of an age. No reason for 8-13 year olds to be playing baseball year round. Once you hit high school maybe but not when so young and growing .
I wonder how many potential mlb players were destroyed by over training in Japan
@@user-dp5go8hr6w they also don't need to be throwing anything but fastballs and change ups until their arms are fully developed.
@@shawn-zx9xtagree with that as well
These youth coaches want to win so they can build up their travel teams and brands. They could care less about a kids arm health.
@@user-dp5go8hr6w We weren't even allowed to practice certain pitches. Mind blowing what little league has turned into and what seemed to be common knowledge is completely gone and accepting of inevitable Tommy jon. Nolan Ryan existed before all this!
Im 22 now but when I was about 15 my little brother was on a state championship little league team and the pitcher was the best in the whole state throwing 70+mph at 12 yrs old and by the end of the season he was having full blown shoulder surgery and doc said he will probably never throw competitively again. 12 years old man, shoulder gone. Ive had injuries as well so it hits home to know these kids are training to hurt themselves. I know very little about baseball but it seems like we should force the pitchers to stay in even longer? Make it impossible to be throwing that fast all game and start teaching young children to throw the ball differently because fast isnt sustainable for a full game. Who knows, would like to see a change tho.
As much as I loved Tim Linecum being undersized flame thrower watching Maddux baffle batters was poetry in motion.
also Greg's teammate Jamie Moyer a great pitcher who started 2 years before Greg on the Cubs and finished his career all the way in 2010 throwing 70-80mph his entire career with great success
True enough. But also, people think of Maddux as a soft-thrower, when he was actually competitively fast. He was pitching fastballs in the low-90s, but that was with the old measuring system that measured at the plate. His actual throwing velocity at the arm was 94-95mph, so he still had some heat before throwing a 2-seamer or change-up that would be pinpointed while causing batters to buckle at the knees.
Tim wasn't known for his heat.
m.ruclips.net/video/uZdv-TtiMkg/видео.html
... I'm sorry? He threw a 97 MPH 2-seamer@@keithjoseph128
With all the injuries, hopefully the coaches and statisticians will realize that its more efficient to pitch with the goal of getting ground ball outs. Greg Maddux is the best pitcher I've ever seen for that reason. He was not afraid to let his defense do their jobs. He was not afraid of contact. That's why he could occasionally through complete games with only about 80 pitches. A one-pitch ground ball out with a 70 mph sinker gets the job done exactly as much as an 8-pitch strike out with 8 95+ mph fastballs and a couple balls and fouls, and is much better for your arm.
As a 19 year old, Ive seen kids in middle school throwing a full bag of pitches and topping out at 70-80 mph, that’s not good for their health as they are still growing
With everyone prioritizing velocity, its only going to continue. Need more Greg Maddux's of the world
@Bottomoftheinning Greg Maddux didn't even throw soft. If you look at how hard he was throwing at his peak he threw about league average or slightly higher
He only looks slow because everyone compares him to the other best pitchers of all time which tend to be guys who throw extremely hard
@@BottomoftheInningHow does throwing fastballs over 90 mph compare, injury-wise, with throwing breaking balls or knuckleballs? Are there different or more demanding mechanics in throwing any of those?
They wanted more home runs so they shrunk the dimensions of the ballparks, didn’t they? I think the big parks were more exciting.
If the game reduces down to primarily strikeouts, walks or HRs, it’s going to be dull.
Side note: seeing home runs hit in person in the ballpark is much more thrilling than on TV. TV has the slow-motion replay, but watching a game in person is awesome. Well, if you have a nice crowd. When people get up 15 times during a game to walk in front of you to get more beer, it loses the magic.
@@BottomoftheInning I agree 100%
I threw pitching camps and played ball all the time when young. I was throwing 75-78 when I was in middle school. This was over 30 years ago. Didn't hurt me. And I threw more pitches than most especially in games as I was a lefty with movement and would run counts up to setup hitters.
As a lifelong Texas Rangers fan I can think back to the time when they had 2 outstanding young pitching prospects in their farm system, Brian Allard and Danny Darwin..
I remember farm director Joe Klein talking about the fact that Danny Darwin's fastball had been clocked as high as 93 mph.
A legit flame thrower. Things have changed a lot in the past 45 years 😅
The stat-based approach has also changed hitting itself. Stats have decided home runs are of ultimate value. Guys used to have all kinds of variation to their swing but now it seems like most guys have essentially the same swing: load up and try to sock a dinger every time. We used to call this the "hero cut" when I was a kid. Pitching is part of the big rise in K rates but so is this approach. Nobody wants to be Tony Gwynn or Wade Boggs these days.
This is a parroted point that I just don't think is true unless you are looking for it. The teams that go far in the playoffs and world series winners all have high batting averages and low strikeout rates aka not "hero cutting".
Also there is still dudes Gwynnin and Boggin every year. Arraez on the Marlins hit .354 with 203 hits last year for example. Plenty of dudes still hit for average and are typically your leadoff/2 guys on the team.
If you focus on dudes who consistently hit 3/4/5 in lineups, then launch angle hero cuts are obviously true, but it always has been since Ruth and Mantle lol.
@@Rudipuagreed. I think the k’s are as much about the pitching as anything. Also, the guys who are hitting 3/4/5 are usually able to hit for average and home runs.
Jeff O'neil does... and even though I hate that he's a Mut, I respect his grind.
@@RinslerRR I still think its just pitching. 20-30 years ago, your average dudes weren't throwing 95mph minimum with 12 inch+ breaking pitches outside of the aces. Now the 4 and 5 pitchers all have nasty stuff and it seems every guy out of the bullpen throws 98 with something gross on the side.
I really do think with the "new" media focus on launch angle and WAR and OPS+, people are just projecting that all hitters care about is stats and sabremetrics say swing big or go home; when in reality it seems quite the opposite amongst most teams. If you focus on the Yankees/Dodgers, which are the only 2 teams in baseball according to a lot of networks, then yeah they load up on those kind of guys 1-9. The diamondbacks, astros, nationals, orioles, rays, guardians, royals all still hit to get on base with the traditional power dudes hitting in the middle.
I don't really follow any teams closely outside of the whitesox and playoff teams, but I'm just not seeing dudes take these wild hacks and trying to get under the ball like I hear in the media all the time. You still even see guys choke up or take quicker swings on 2 strikes just like forever ago.
It's harder to get guys on base, so the value of a base hit isn't what it used to be since hitters are more often up with 1-2 outs and no one on base.
I don't think swing angles are the problem. Matching the plane of the pitch makes you more likely to make contact, not less likely. Lower batting averages have to do with the increased skill of pitchers and very little with anything they're doing at the plate.
As a non-American who is not really baseball "fan" but is fascinated by it, I think this is the sort of game that gets its heart ripped out by professionalism and min-maxing more so that other games. Rules that force people to quit or stop them making money, stopping advertising, etc. might be ways of preventing boring theorycrafting and inhuman demands. Basically enforce amateurism, or change the physicality of it, use heavier balls or reduce the number of fielders, etc. etc.
I miss the days when pitchers faced hitters a third time around. Nothing is cooler than a CG
Well, many of these pitchers who can throw 97mph fastballs also have problems locating the strike zone. They get their strikeouts but it may take 7 pitches to get that out. Over time that adds up, and teams don't want starters to throw more than 100 pitches per game.
In the 1970's, no pitcher who was the season leader threw less than 18 complete games. In the 21st century, no team has totaled more than 16 complete games in a season.
An effective pitcher knows how to handle batters the third time through the lineup.
Eovaldi isn't scared of it
Yeah analytics says they shouldn't so teams don't unless he's cruising along and throwing a no no
My favorite part of baseball is the pitching, the movement, the strategy, watching pitchers develop and change overtime...and now its all fastballs and injuries. I was in high school when Maddux was with the Cubs and watching him target pitches, pitches with movement was unbelievable.
Fastball usage is actually incrementally decreasing league-wide every year. Of course this won't do anything to help reduce injuries, only increase them as high spinrate and velocity are simultaneously the biggest attributes to having success as a pitcher and injuries.
"My favorite part of baseball is the pitching, the movement, the strategy, watching pitchers develop and change overtime"
And it being the only thing that even happens in the game (other than people standing around fiddling with their gloves of course)
Unfortunately, the damage starts at a young age these days. Travel ball has gotten younger and more out of control. Parents living vicariously through their children pushing for them to be the absolute best 10 year old pitcher in their league for a relatively meaningless season in a declining game. I'm a nurse practitioner who has worked in orthopedics for the majority of my career now. I started in hand surgery, which is a misnomer because I really specialized in everything from the shoulder down. The reality is no kid should throw competitively year round. Pitchers should have at least 3 months of rest. If the kid plays catcher, then he really shouldn't be pitching and vice versa. Kid's should also continue to play more than one sport to develop other muscular groups, coordination and overall athleticism. We are also seeing an epidemic of ACL/Knee injuries in girls sports, particularly soccer and basketball because of a lack of development other actives use to provide to single sport kids. Girls sports really got the club game going and made single sport focus the fad that it's become. We are seeing this in almost every sport now, from the youth ranks through the pros. So many pro athletes can't stay healthy to save their lives. Look at what's happened to the running back position in professional football. They train year round. Our bodies were never designed to be that big, that fast and trained that relentlessly year round...then take the beating of an NFL season. Over training is a serious problem. I see athletic trainers doing this with their athletes constantly. If you want to build speed, you don't have the kids sprint at 100% any more than 2-3 days per week max. You should have them alternating speeds when they are training and progress through various intervals. Long story short, it's time to let kids be kids again. Encourage multiple sport participation and try to keep things fun. You don't have to throw hard to be a great pitcher. Teach them control, a good change up and to work the corners. Breaking pitches are unnecessary in the youth ranks. Stop letting uneducated coaches teach kids bad habits. I appreciate parents willing to volunteer their time but they should understand their limitations and not introduce techniques, habits or concepts they don't fully understand the consequences of (the curveball for example).
Youth sports in general have become toxic, it is sad to see. Everyone thinks little Timmy has a chance.
well done.
Nah my kid is throwing 90+ balls
I hope no one actually read this long-winded garbage
The sad truth is most of these coaches don't care about the kids futures they care about winning games so they use them and push them regardless of the damage it might do.
Another reason strikeouts keep going up is the approach hitters take.
Many more hitters are swinging for the fences in situations where they didn't 30+ years ago.
The majority of players used to shorten up and just try to put the ball in play with 2 strikes or hit behind the runner to move them to 3rd with less than 2 outs.
It's still early April and already two top tier pitchers have injured their elbow ligaments, Bieber and Strider. And Cole also had a scare. TJ surgery is becoming a plague among pitchers.
As long as we keep prioritizing velocity, this will be the common trend
Ohtani got surgery too
Factually incorrect. 2022 and 2023 had the least amount of TJ surgery in pro baseball since 2016(excluding 2020 for obvious reasons).
if you watched Strider's career so far you knew it was only a matter of time. Dude is built like Greg Maddux but trying to throw like Nolan Ryan.
@@Nolan-55 regarded
This is why when I pitch during pickup baseball I don’t throw fastballs and don’t use my pointer finger when I throw curve balls. I only use my middle finger to throw curve balls. The muscle that goes around human elbows is connected to the pointer finger. When you use the pointer finger, the muscle that provides the bulk of the power is this muscle. When it tears the resulting surgery needed to heal it is Tommy John surgery. If you don’t use this muscle, you won’t lose this muscle or injure this muscle.
Batters are also swinging for the fences more and more. Launch angle has mattered more than connecting and getting a base hit.
Just a game of homers and strikeouts right now.
Yup, even small guys who traditionally would have been focusing on a high BA are now swinging for the fences
pitchers saved balls and proved they are screwing with the balls over the years. It's about pleasing fans not historical integrity of the game
. also buncha juicers
This point is parroted so much and I just don't find it to be true.
Yeah if you focus on guys that typically hit 4/5 (power hitters) its true, but its always been true back to the 50s lol.
The teams that always go deep in the playoffs and win the world series always are in the top end of batting average and low end of strikeouts. The exception being the Braves in 21 who had high average, high SO.
There is certainly a higher focus on launch angles in broadcasts in recent years after a homerun, but I would hardly call it a plague affecting baseball. Still plenty of run manufacturing done around the league, especially amongst the better teams.
So why were games well under 3 hours in the 70's, 80's and decades prior? The fact that some pitchers were taking a minute in between pitches was ridiculous. There were batters that stepped out and readjusted their batting gloves after taking a pitch and not even swinging. BTW, the pitch clock is not a new rule in baseball, it's a very old rule that was never enforced and the technology (lack of) made it difficult to ever follow through with it. The pitch clock is not the problem, although it should not be decreased any. MLB needs to leave it and not shorten the time in between pitches even more.
Years ago pitchers pitched well over 100 pitches a game and went well past 5 innings a game. Today we see the "magic" number 100 and when that started, it was the ruination of pitchers. Now we have pitchers that are tired after 5 innings and if they go longer, the manager usually takes them out as soon as they are near 100 pitches. Combine pitchers not being stretched out to go past 100 pitches regularly, add in increased velocity and take into account the fact that pitchers are adding new pitches to their repertoire, and you have a recipe for disaster.
Pitchers need to tone down the velocity a little bit, be stretched out to go past 100 pitches and be allowed to pitch past 5 or 6 innings regularly. Pitchers did it years ago and they didn't "burn out" and they definitely didn't suffer injuries the way we are seeing today. We are seeing far too many specialists in baseball pitching and it's created a lack of arm stamina for pitchers. No more limit of 100 pitches and no more pulling pitchers out after 5 or 6 innings. Keep the pitch clock, maybe add a couple of seconds and leave the other new rules in place and we will continue to see the return of fans to baseball. Hopefully, it will one day be our "National Pastime" once again. Besball has been berry, berry, good to me.
ion know nothing abt baseball so now wonder my parlays get sold by going over because these mfs be on the bench for rest of the game shit be crazy
This is probably the best analysis of the problem I have seen to date. One thing was missing. As a pitcher when you know that at 100 or basically the third time around you are done. So you throw as hard as you can for that short amount of time. If you know that you will pitch as long as you are effective, mentally you know you need to pace. Sort of like the difference between running a mile and a marathon.
You answered your own question when you brought up pitchers pitching well over 100 pitches. The pitch clock was brought in to counter the dozens of pitching changes per game that slowed the game to a crawl.
@@matthewgreiner2766
Great point. 👍
I have to say, as an ortho resident, the whole "short recovery" leading to increased tendon/ligament injury makes little sense. Injuries of this nature are mostly commonly acute, traumatic (think a football player who gets his knee bent the wrong way by a hit) or long term wear and tear. The wear and tear injuries have a a large amount variability in terms of what the major factors have the greatest influence and current research has yet to produce a complete/conclusive model.
While my research has been focused on ACL repair, so I'm not an expert when it comes to UCL, the time in between reps should not be a factor unless it leads to a severe breakdown in form. The muscle ligaments are not themselves metabolically active and thus don't have the potential to "recover" in the sense a muscle would. In my opinion, the way pitchers are gripping the ball so tightly to produce the higher spin rates is the most impactful on UCL injury rates. I'm sure velocity is a factor, however, I think if you investigated it be more related to the pitchers mechanics.
Again I have not personally conducted any UCL research so this is just my two-sense based on my general MSK knowledge. I think its also worth noting that UCL injuries were already rising prior to the introduction to the pitch clock (I think the pitchers are just using this as an excuse to get rid of it personally).
Watched a game with a pitcher that threw a 90+mph change-up! How is that a change-up?!
Crazy right
You should take a look at Johan Duran of the Twins
If his fastball is 99-102mph, a 90mph pitch would have the same effectiveness as a 95mph fastballer throwing an 87mph changeup.
It's not about throwing soft, but throwing softer to disrupt the rhythm. The real craziness is with the 94-96mph sliders.
Dude all these radar gun readings are elevated by 2-3 MPH compared to pre 2010s even. At least pre 2000s for sure. They’re measuring velo now to show maximum pitch speed since viewers are obsessed with stuff like that. Makes their current players look better.
@@HT-sm9dm I have no idea how true this is but I heard the shift was from measuring the velocity at the point of where the pitcher is releasing vs the speed of the ball when crossing home plate like it used to be. Not sure if that's true or not though. I think it was in a documentary I saw about Nolan Ryan.
We need steroids back to crack home runs with 30 inch forearms 🤣
The 3 True Outcomes: watching 2 guys play catch, another guy stand between them waving a stick, and 7 other guys standing around scratching their butts
The Braves beat the Phillies 9-3 on opening day without a homerun. Wasn’t much standing around that day🤷♂️
@@snowyfragrant6029 sounds like a once in a lifetime event
@@shoface1798 in 2017 I went to Phillies/ nationals second game of the season. Phillies scored I believe 13 runs without a homer.
@@SportsPlug-cp1eq nah 100x more enjoyable than football or basketball when u really understand the game.
@@SportsPlug-cp1eq watching Phillies @ nats rn actually
There are more strikeout because there are no contact hitters anymore. The batter hits a home run or a strikeout. Zero or hero.
imho those are boring games. i'd rather games with weaker pitchers and hitters so that the ball stay in the field and people are running.
Exactly.
Days are gone
The Fing Royals made the WS in 2014 hitting like 98 total hr's that season. Then again their D and pitching lead the way but damn they played small ball well
No more Wade Boggs... that style going the way of the dodo bird
@@Michael-sb8jf Haha, 2014 world series, the Royals and Giants, neither team known for their incredible power.
And of the three teams the Giants faced in the World Series this century, the only one they didn't dominate was the timely/contact hitting team..
The biggest reason pitches are faster now is because back in the day they measured it near home plate now it is when it leaves the hand. Same as home runs. The outfield been moved in. The players today wouldn’t even be near Babe Ruth, Mantle or Han Aaron’s. Today they should all have an * by the record so you can reference how much easier it is.
Yeah athletes have somehow gotten worse
Delusional
This may be counterintuitive, but what's needed is a heavier workload on starting pitchers. The mentality now is throw as hard as you can for as long as you can, then let the next guy come in and do the same thing. If you're expecting the starter to go at least seven innings, and, yes, even complete a few games, this forces the starter to pace himself, to find a comfortable working speed, getting outs with location and movement, then reach back for that little extra when needed. 120 pitches at 80% effort is going to do less arm damage than 70-80 pitches at 100%.
The counterargument I hear all the time is "But the hitters now are too good, everybody in the lineup can hit a home run, you need to go all out with every batter." First of all, we need to get rid of the DH, the opposing pitcher's at bat provides a much-needed break. Second, a slower pitch is harder to take deep than a faster one, the batter needs to generate more bat speed instead of letting the pitcher do all the work. This means that a pitcher who can change velocity can make a batter who is only interested in home runs look awfully foolish.
I would propose requiring a pitcher to remain in the game (barring injury) for at least six innings while the possibility of a quality start still exists. I would also change the three batter minimum to requiring the reliever to remain in the game until either the end of the inning or until a run scores, this could be one batter, or it could be four of five. Seems more natural than an artificial arbitrary number.
To me fewer pitchers equals better pacing, which leads to fewer injuries, and also leads to more exciting (i.e. less TTO) baseball.
So basically the Japanese way. Starting pitchers are considered warriors over there. Pitchers at the top of the rotation are expected to give as little work for their bullpens as possible in their start days, or even a day off, even if it costs a few earned runs and winning decisions for said top pitchers.
I'm with you on the DH, but it will never go away.
Im sorry but no. If you look at the stats for hitters on their third time facing the same pitcher their OBP is easily over 400 so its just dumb to make pitchers pitch
Also the thing about making the pitcher do the work is only true to a point. If you look at the data there are barely any HR hit off of super hard fastballs because of how much vertical movement they have. Just because its "slow" for mlb standards doesn't mean the ball still won't fly off the bat because its going 90 mph
@@cubsfanman-nx6pg The thing about stats is that they are only numbers. If pitchers throw as hard as they can, they are typically starting to tire out by the third time through. If they paced a bit they would still have their stuff.
@@matthewgreiner2766 Or they'd be pulled from the game two innings earlier because they'd have given up 5 runs and a dozen hits because they were throwing softer, easier to hit pitches.
This has been an arms race for a long time, and just remember: 2023's runs/game was at the same rate as it was in 2002, during the Steroid Era. Batters have gotten a whole lot better over the years, pitching has pulled ahead by a bit with the focus on spin rates and velocity, but not by all that much.
8:09 ain’t no way bro is named Gay Blacks
200 years from now:
"Are 175 mph fast balls too fast for the average hitter? We are seeing record high strike outs"
And a staff that has two starters that go no more than two innings, and the rest all relievers/closers🤣
Yeah, with cyborg arms! 😂
As a big MLB Fan, this season has been so frustrating. I'm sick of seeing endless strikeouts and weak contact. Almost all batters better swing at that first pitch if it's a strike because once you get 2 strikes you've basically had it with the spin rate, movement that the pitchers have now.
lets be real it will be more like no more baseball cause its to dangerous ;D
And bunt homers are at an all time high!
As of writing this (mid-June 2024) all 8 of the "great pitchers" mentioned at the end are on the long-term IL or just coming back from long IL stints, many of them with TJ-type injuries, and 3 of them on their second TJ.
Yeah, pitching may reach a point where throwing harder has diminishing returns if the injuries reduce longevity to a certain point.
In the NFL, this point is kinda moot since longevity is so short, esp for RB. Maybe the demand for throwing faster will mean salaries are so high that pitches still go for it.
Luckily for the sport, the best pitchers are not always the hardest throwing. There will always be a place for the artful pitcher who finds a way, whether by changing speeds/planes/arm angle or whatever, finds a way to mess the batter up consistently.
If a Maddox, or "worse", Jamie Moyer comes up now, does he even get a chance?
@@joelwexler Maddux would absolutely still be fine, he was adaptable and crafty af. All pitchers are products of their time, they use what works. If Maddux came nowadays, he would adapt to what gets major league hitters out.
I mean, Lance Lynn and Mark Buehrle also had success in recent seasons. Greinke, Kuchel, Ryu, Glavine, Schilling late in his career.
You also have to remember that bullpens can be more successful when put out relievers with contrasting pitching styles. Tampa Bay has been great at that, having all sorts of weird arm angles, and styles of pitchers.
I highly doubt that pitchers could reach 120mph without the aid of performance enhancing drugs or some future type of surgery. And if the injuries to pitchers continue to get worse, I don’t think all pitchers would just blindly push forward with this trend of “lift heavier, throw harder”. Pitchers are more cerebral than on average than other baseball players and wouldn’t want to just play two seasons throwing extreme gas then not being able to throw anymore.
@@joelwexler The army is already using those existing-skeleton type braces on the legs/hips of soldiers to let them lift heavier weights with ease. But the rotator cuff is the most complex joint in the body.
There is no surgery possible at the moment to repair a torn rotator cuff while preserving the range of motion, and that range of motion is crucial for pitching. The elbow is a simpler joint and even then, pitchers can only really have two Tommy John surgeries and after that, when the elbow is done, they retire.
Therefore, it’s super unlikely we’ll see any sort of surgery that would allow super-human rotator cuff strength. The complex anatomy of that joint may be one of the main factors in limiting how hard pitchers can throw. It’s interesting regardless, who knows what kinda training or technique future players might come up with.
Right now, seems like Japan might be producing the best pitchers. The way Yamamoto throws heat with his stature, effortless delivery. And the way Japanese pitchers use sinkers, which might be the pitch of 2024. They seem to know what’s up when it comes to pitching mechanics!
Yeah but if a team has a 4 year contract with a pitcher, they can just wear out their arm and then they’re some other team’s problem to deal with
@@ThomasPoorman they could do that but word would spread about that sort of pitching culture and it would hurt the team. If all teams do that then it’s more a players union issue.
The league is taking notice of the injury trend, I hope they take it seriously and find some solutions. Sadly, MLB reallly loves to pimp the flamethrowers as a draw since they are worried about baseball being too boring.
Thanks for the video, great info. One important thing to consider regarding the higher strikeout rate is the impact of the change in hitting philosophy over the years to focus on launch angle and "full swings" regardless of the count. Admittedly I don't have sources on this and I don't know exactly when this trend started, but there has been a shift in mindset and today guys are trying to knock every single pitch out of the park all the time. No matter the count, the swings seem to be all about power and very little about bat control and there seems to be no accountability for the resulting higher strikeout rates at all. This doesn't offset your points about pitching getting too good, but this shift in hitting mindset is definitely isn't helping with strikeout rates at all.
I can't be the only one who noticed the name on one of the referenced articles. Gabe laques 😂
Was looking to see. Hahahaa
His parents knew exactly what they were doing 😂
I skimmed the comments looking to see if someone had mentioned it. LOL
You can also see this trend in the amount of home runs being hit as well. From the 90's on, home runs have been steadily rising along with the pitch speed metrics. You could also argue the hotter on average games have become, the higher the average bat exit speed velocity. There are so many factors, but the game has certainly changed from chess-like pitching strategy to brute force; more strikeouts and more home runs.
The goat is back. Excited for videos this season.
…… he has 4 total vids wtaf r u talkin about
Circumstantial proof this channel is a content mill in progress
Baseball in this century has become increasingly unwatchable. For years every sports writer mentioned how long the games were getting, without mentioning how obvious the reason was: pitchers were taking ages to pitch. Guys like Papelbon were among the worst offenders, taking 15 minutes to throw 15 pitches. And the result: strikeout after strikeout after strikeout. Thanks, but these 3.5 hours on a Sunday afternoon can be spent doing something else.
So to the pitchers complaining about the pitch clock: you brought this on yourselves. Go back to a recording of games in the 1960’s through most of the 1990’s, and watch how quickly the pitchers worked.
This videos needs to have AT LEAST 100k MORE views then it has now
They should push the mounds back
wish granted
My 10 year old son is his 12u and 10u teams best pitcher. I was not a “baseball dad.” We were a football family. But he was good at baseball so I let him play it but never would do the traveling teams. Just his regular team, until I was talked into letting him “play up” when he was 8 years old on a 10u team.
And that’s when I saw how bad it can get.
Again my kid was 8. And I didn’t know shit about baseball, and this team was a middle of the road team who had a very nice guy for head coach. A guy I was friends with from way back.
However, after their older pitcher kept having mental meltdowns and the other older pitcher couldn’t throw a strike to save his life, he called on my son. That was the very first game of the season.
My son pitched in every single game the rest of the season but 2.
The pitch count was not changed for his age, and even if it was, an 8 year old should not be throwing 85 pitches a game every 2-3 days.
At the time I didn’t know, I just was happy for my boy to be pitching and overcoming nervousness of throwing to kids much older and bigger then he.
But then a few months after the season ended, he played football, and was quarterback, and that’s when the pain started. Long story short luckily for us the doctor caught it in time and we rested him and his arm the rest of the year while doing intense rehab. I let him play baseball still, but his coaches are now told by me that he does not throw over 50 pitches ever, and if he’s throwing, he’s getting a full 4 days rest.
Dont let these coaches fuck your kids up
This is a great video and I understand the point you are making with Maddux as he had incredible command of and movement on all of his pitches, but there is a bit of revisionist history with him going on in general. I'm not just talking about your video, but about the way that people speak about him in general. There's this myth of him as some bespectacled, professorial pitching genius who never threw hard.
He was not, for the prime of his career when he was an elite pitcher (probably the very best pitcher in baseball), some soft-tossing starter. The dude had a notably above average fastball for his entire peak by the standards of that era. He was touching 94 or 95 and sitting at 92 or 93 with his fastball when the league average fastball for right-handed starters was barely 90. He wasn't Randy Johnson, but the guy threw hard enough to blow it by you if you tried to sit on his slower stuff. It was absolutely a key part of how he got guys out.
His velocity allowed his breaking ball and changeup to be more deceptive because he had enough juice to force people to get ready for the fastball. When he lost velocity he became less deceptive and he was just average or maybe a tick above as a pitcher. His command and movement are what separated him from other guys who threw similarly hard or harder, but if he'd always just been a soft-tosser then he'd be a pretty average or maybe slightly above-average starter.
Dude seriously everyone talks about Maddux like hes a soft tosser just because we only have good pitch speed date from when he was like 35
Modern scouts aren't as concerned about pitch speed as they are SPIN Rate. And although they are connected in some ways, most scouts would take a guy who can spin the ball at an elite levelover a flaming fastball. Unless the guy is touching triple digits without maximum exertion, they only care that they can locate their fastball because every MLB hitter can hit just about any fastball.
You also need to know that the way the pitch speed is measured. The pitches used to be measured 10 ft from the plate, now it's 50 ft from the plate. An 85 mph pitch in 1980 was actually low 90s.
That is irrelevant.
He didn’t mention velocity from the 1980s for comparison.
You were just looking for a reason to mention that erroneous point. Way to go
@@BB-fo5mrit's not irrelevant because there were plenty of guys who threw hard. They clock you right out of the hand now, that's not a true indicator
Thank you for stating the obvious. I understand that.
It’s irrelevant, in terms of the point being made.
This has gone over your heads
@@BB-fo5mr I love it when a narcissist states their very clear "opinion" as if it's a fact.
Jamie Moyer played until he was 49 years old while remaining healthy for the majority of 25 seasons....his career average fastball velo was 81.6 mph. Yet when he was asked what made him effective for so long he didn't say his breaking pitches or changeup.... he said it was his ability to change velo on his fastball. My point is that even though he couldn't overpower you throwing his hardest, he was still willing to take some off and throw an 80% fb knowing it was the change of pace that would keep hitters from sitting on his fb. Velo is cool and fun to watch but the increasing reliance on it is dangerous to the health of pitchers and makes the odds of seeing another Jamie Moyer slim to none. I spent most of my 20's as a scout then crosschecker for a certain NL organization...my job was to go out and find hard throwing pitchers with high spin rates knowing damn well they'd nearly all be under the knife within the first 18 months of turning pro (especially the hard throwing high schoolers). MLB teams were and still are willing to take that risk by stocking their organization with hard throwers bc "speed kills" and if one goes down they'll just bring up the next. The art of pitching is dying and longevity is becoming a thing of the past. It's easy to blame youth/travel baseball organizations, velo training, year round baseball, etc but they are only placing emphasis on velo and spin bc MLB organizations did it first. it's sad, but it's just a reflection of what they are seeing at the highest levels of the sport.
Correct me if wrong, the power pitching movement is a response to the steroids era offense, and the TTO increase is the attempt to improve run production in response to the power pitching movement. Just the fact that teams across the board are putting more power arms on their roster probably means it's easier to throw max effort right down the middle and get away with it than finesse your way to get outs, though I don't have the data to back this up. All sports are trending towards higher efficiency, not just baseball.
I heard about this problem years ago. The main solution I heard proposed was about moving the plate back so the ball had to travel farther, giving batters a better fighting chance vs. these lightning fast pitchers. Otherwise baseball becomes a giant snoozefest that's not fun to play and even less fun to watch.
177 views is crazy for this video you definitely deserve more bro keep it up
Thanks Man! Appreciate it
Ooh he did get some and more
this shit blew up lmao
The most dominating pitcher in my little league was a curveball thrower. Dominated. But, moving up to Babe Ruth league, mound was further back, and he couldn't compete. HIs arm was curved from throwing too many curve balls, and they told kids just throw fastballs. We all wear out, and if you overuse, you get injured. Year-round baseball is bad, and most get sick of the game. Ban travel teams, let more kids from other side of the street play, since baseball looks like the Masters Tournament.
Sounds like the roids have gotten better.😮
Sounds like jealousy
A lot of this is the way hitters are scouted as well; The era your assessing corresponds with the death of the contact hitter, and the death in the minor league system of teaching hitters to be able to take an approach and choose where they hit the ball [forcing defenses to defend the whole field].These two changes in scouting have ruined baseball as an entertainment product by producing endless strikeout/homerun situation.
If you go back and watch tape of playoff baseball from the "before times", you'll quickly conclude that the players trained in the 80's had whole different skillsets that would give absolute fits to unprepared modern teams. It's very unclear to me how teams from these different eras would interact in direct competition, but it is clear that teams from previous eras would totally shock modern teams in how they played.
Pitchers are also being taught an increased assortment of pitches, which places extra stress on the arm. Where once the average starting pitcher threw a fastball, a curve, a slider and a change-up, it's common now to see someone feature six or eight pitches. This is what team scouts and management are looking for. And of course, as this video points out, emphasizing sheer velocity and developing training regimens to achieve increases in that department brings young prospects closer to the threshold of injury.
Ligaments and tendons can be adapted to the stress of throwing is just takes longer than ur muscular structure overall to get stronger.
It looks like we're the only two here that know that.
I feel that a big cause for the increase in strike outs is the poor decision making of strikers. A point is a point, and no matter how good of a striker you are, you can't hit every ball for a home run.
Billy Bean and Sabermetrics have ruined baseball. Bean hasn't won shit, either
True, but imagine Beane with money and you have the Houston Astros...
I loved "Whitey Ball" in St. Louis back in the 80s. Bunts, double steals, hit and run. That was exciting baseball to watch. But Sabermetrics says those things don't pay off, even though the Cardinals went to the World Series three times in the 80s. I quit watching long ago.
@@SportsPlug-cp1eq Cheaters . . . Go Yankees.
I dont feel fortunate. I feel bored. No one tunes in to watch pitching. We want to see homeruns, hits, runs scored. Baseball has become exceedingly tedious.
Solution is very simple. Just force starting pitchers to go 7 innings minimum. Watch them reduce their velocity to last longer.
Yup and if they have a legitimate injury a position player has to pitch the remaining innings so they can't fake their way to middle relief pitchers.
I have the solution. First, limit teams to ten pitchers, and eliminate the practice of calling up a pitcher to start one game, then sending him back to the minors. Also, require that any pitcher called to the majors must remain on the roster for two weeks. Finally, allow position players to pitch only in extremely lopsided games.
This will result in pitchers having to pitch a lot more innings, therefore conserving themselves and not throwing so hard. This will mean fewer injuries, and less pitcher domination.
They might also consider what they did in 1969, and lower the mound a bit.
And I would eliminate every rule change that has occurred during the Manfred regime. He has done nothing, absolutely nothing, for the game, with two exceptions. He got us a season in 2020, and he managed to get a CBA. Other than that, the man has done nothing but damage this great game.
I'd love to see them go back to 1970. No Designated Hitter, which is an abomination, and no second place teams in the post season.
I could go on! Excellent, informative video!
As cool as Nolan Ryan smoking batters was. Watching Greg Maddox mind fuck batters was pure bliss
This video reminds me I’m not the only one whose heart breaks when my feed shows a hs kid throwing high nineties.
I don't even watch baseball or know anything about it, but it's really funny to me that the solution the officials put out was basically "You wanna injure yourself and hurt your career with these inhuman throws? Fucking go ahead, see if I care"
great video bro keep up the good work
Thanks bro! I'll keep them coming
this also spills into the realm of pro disc golf. pros like Eagle McMahon and Paul McBeth have already had surgery before the age of 30. becoming too common in recent years
The documentary Fastball noted that the human eye is not fast enough to focus, predict where the ball is going, and get the bat on the ball from 60' 6" away (it's closer than that when measured from the release point). Most 100+ mph pitches are out of the strike zone, so, unless the hitter has two strikes, if they sense the pitch is that fast, they should just let it go - easier said than done. However, if the documentary is right and 100 mph becomes more common with accuracy, the solution might be to move the mound back.
I played year round travel ball from 8 years old to 16. I would pitch at least one complete game a weekend, and there were no pitch limits for travel ball at the time. When I was 12 I started going to PT for numbness in my elbow but pushed through the pain. Then I had labrum surgery when I was 15 and couldn’t throw well anymore. My velo was up to 85 when I was 15 before my final injury. Do not pitch year round, and focus on good mechanics and strength training.
We need a Maddux resurgence
That was beautiful!
Damn that's why in stories when people get a certain level the game gets boring. Everyone is getting better than the previous ones.
When golfers starting hitting farther courses like Augusta moved the tee boxes back. Does the mlb need too do the same and move the mound back? Would that help?
This was my fiest thought. Move the mound back 1 or 2ft. Increases the relative importance of accuracy.
Here’s my opinion. Deaden the ball. Make homers less attractive, pitchers will go for more pitch to contact approaches
Baseball is the only sport where players are encouraged (implicitly demanded) to go max effort 100% of the time. This is the fault of the general managers and the head coaches who have essentially told amateur pitchers that the only way to get to the show is to push their arms to an unhealthy degree.
Baseball is definently not the only sport that does that lol what are you on
@@cubsfanman-nx6pg Compelling argument.
Most people look at baseball as a bunch of guys standing around for 3 hours with a few spurts of action and lots of spitting. I get it, when they’re playing they are at 100%.
just started watching MLB this year and my eyes are glued to Yamamoto. He's 3 games into the season and I think he's doing okay. I get excited whenever he gets a strikeout, there's this thrill when he gets the batter with his splitter/curveball.
I was always wondering why something feels lacking whenever I watch full matches, then I realized, from a batter fans' point of view, it gets kinda boring if the batters keep on getting striked out. But it's also fun when the entire stadium screams if people go run for the bases or try to steal one. I also remember that game where Ichiro threw a ball to the third base, outing the runner, that was crazy. Seeing this video got me worried, saying how there's more strikeouts than hits and the TTOs are getting higher compared to the previous years. Hope everything goes well for the MLB
(sorry if I didn't get some of the technical words right lol)
Very well made video
appreciate the kind words!
I remember in high school my buddies younger brother had a 87 mph fastball. He pitched left handed. He was right handed. He was saving his right arm for college lol. Ended up getting burnt out on baseball and gave it up to join the military and get married. Always wondered what could have been b it in any case I think he has a happier life now.
This is the main reason I don't watch baseball anymore. It's no fun if nobody can hit the ball
Then you are welcome to cricket.
It's same but with more dinamics of Skill,.
There's this Korean pitcher who throws like average 85 miles fastball, but he won 100 games in his career and somehow tricked the umps with his breaking balls getting unreal strikeouts. He never got into a serious injury but still was one of the greatest.
+of course in the Korean league, and he was never tested in a world cup due to his slow speed.
Viewership increased because of broadcasting into Japan and Korea. Maybe ??
The game has totally changed from its origins. Baseball originally centered around fielding and baserunning. Pitchers were supposed to serve the ball up to get hit, then the defense jumped into action.
I've said this for many years. Pull back the pitcher's mound distance from home plate at least 5-10 feet to facilitate more play on the field while decreasing the innings from 9 to 7 for time constraints. Baseball has devolved into just a pitcher/batter duel when viewers really want to see home runs and more action on the field. At the end of the day, if the game is not entertaining for the fans, it will die off and that is what we are witnessing. Too many diehard fans stuck to tradition and resistant to change will kill it off in my opinion.
First off baseball isn't dying. Its extremely popular in Japan and pretty much every Latin American country.
Not everyone wants to see more balls in play. Maybe some do but in my opinion a rollover to third base is way more boring than a strikeout on a filthy curveball
I agree with the pace of play but shortening the innings wouldn't help at all. The problem is that 9 innings used to take 2 hours and now it takes 3. We still want 9 innings but we dont want it to take 3 hours
Sounds like you have had horrible opinions for many years.
There is one universal truth in baseball. Fans love it when their team scores, especially when a player hits a home run. There is nothing wrong with being a pitcher and having good innings, but when you have a game where both teams are not scoring runs this puts more pressure on the pitchers and the fans will lose interest since no offense is being produced. It is insane the amount of Tommy John surgeries over the years and it doesn't seem like it will stop anytime soon.
As if baseball couldn't get more boring.
Best Baseball I ever watched was mid 90s to early 2000s. They should let em juice the stuff Bonds, Sosa and McGuire did. The glory days.
There should be a league approved and distributed grip aid and you can test it, the ball, the players hand and all that to verify compliance
Why don’t they just move the pitcher back?
lol that’d change everything to much
It would likely increase contact rates on fastballs, however with today’s breaking balls it might be even more difficult to hit.
Imagine what these pitches can do with these spin rates with a few opportunities for revolutions
@@supergaga1712 Wouldn’t that also increase the occurrence of balls too though? Or do you think they’d be able to keep it in the strike zone (or make batters swing and miss) from further out while simultaneously making it more ambiguous to hit?
Really shows how Nolan Ryan was in a good way a freak. One thing I must point out is how important leg strength is with pitching (or most athletic endeavors). Ryan stressed that a lot during his pitching days.
So baseball manages to be really dangerous while also being extremely boring to watch? What an achievement 😂
Maybe shorten the baseball season. Every other sport seems to do just fine without the fluff, and injuries will certainly go down.
Problem is baseball.
Just now getting back into baseball after being benched and told to quit my high school baseball team with a .380 batting average and .750 on base % for “not making plays” on third base with nothing coming my way with our pitchers
Post vent, love me stats because you can see so much of the story by watching the numbers and you get things like this video
It’s funny that baseball has become dominated by pitchers, while cricket has gone the other way and is now dominated by batters 🏏
What is crazy is Leo Mazzonne the former Braves pitching coach. Had the pitchers doing more on their off days than any other coach in the history of the game, but those horses he had never got hurt. I think it is several things causing the injuries, the commissioner is clueless to think it is just one thing causing it.
Start watching cricket.
Just to let you know... at the (about 2015) mark, the radar guns stopped reading the ball as it crossed the plate or was midway to home plate (sometimes, this inconsistency is what caused 102 MPH deliveries and 86 mph delivers. After that time period, one saw the velocities go SUBSTANTIALYY upwards. The reason? DSIMPLE< the Juggs guns (et al.) started measuring the ball coming out of the pitchers'' HANDS, not at or on thew way to home plate and the balls had not had time to slow down all that much as with balls delivered to the plate or halfway on their way TO THE PLATE. Think that I am kidding? Go look at that period of time, pitchers throwing 'GAS' at 91mph came back just a matter of a few seasons later throwing 97-98 mph. The SOLE reason was wear the radar gun measured the pitch. At the plate, and on the way from the mound to the plate was 7-9 % slower in velocity than when the pitch was actually first turned loose. That was where the sudden increasing of velocity came into being. Yes, the athlete's got better, trained better, etc., but not a 7-9% increase -- in just a few years. It was solely limited to the point at which velocity was measured i.e., right out of the hand, or at the batter's box.
The increase of velocity has nothing to do with players throwing harder its because of the stitching of the ball. It's tighter now compared to before. Meaning there is last drag. This also means pitchers must put more torch on the ball when throwing breaking balls hence the increase in injuries.
To see a pitcher like Maddox again would be magic.
Can't say but I've watched many a game where the pitcher tried putting the batter and the crowd to sleep. Gibson, Ryan, seaver all worked quick. It's more the emphasis on hard throwing is more to blame.
Well, I was concerned that Spencer Strider might get injured trying to throw so hard. Turns out I was correct in being concerned.
I read that, regarding pitching injuries, a major contributing factor is that youth sports has gotten freakin' ridiculous. There are more games in more leagues that kids play in, even aside from their school teams. By the time they reach the majors, they've already thrown thousands of pitchers more than, say, Sandy Koufax did at the point he hit the majors.
Back in the day pitchers went deep into games every time they took the hill , today they average 5 innings and get paid 10 times more money
I think the one of the issue with these arm injuries is pitch counts. I remember when I was young growing up in the 80s and 90s I threw everyday all day long. And I was 145 lb kid that threw in the mid to low 80s. I never had no issues with my arm. But I literally threw every single day as much as I possibly could I loved it. But I also learned how to use the bigger core muscles in my body and not just my arm. I was fortunate with a little league coach that was a firm believer in hip to shoulder separation. Use your bigger core muscles to throw not your arm It's very poor pitching mechanics and people's arms are not use to throwing so much all the time because they limit them so much.
To be fair there's way more stress put on your arm when you're throwing 100 as opposed to 80
With max effort velo, spin rates, and wiffs being the main commodity scouts look for, and more teams trending towards developing pitchers to maximize those skills I don't see how this is going to get any better in the future.
Especially when pitching to contact is artificially made harder via the shift restrictions, teams that stress pitching over throwing and keeping their guys healthy in lieu of high strikeout rates are always going to lose. It's not something the league can regulate either and I wouldn't want them to. I already hate pitch timers and shift restrictions, if the league proposes a 'speed limit' of sorts to keep guys healthy it will be the last nail in the coffin to killing the game.
The reason they’re looking for pitch speed is because it’s by far the most important attribute. They know that the only irreplaceable trait in a pitcher is their speed. Speed is everything. The faster the pitch gets, the closer it comes to being unreactable. With every mph faster that the pitch gets, the difficulty of hitting it goes up exponentially because a faster ball comes closer to approaching the limit of human reaction time, which is the only part of the pitch that truly has no counter play. All other aspects of pitching can be adjusted to or practiced for, this isn’t the case with reaction time. A blistering pitch is the greatest equalizer in baseball, and nothing can change that until humans get robotic nervous systems.
this is why cricket is better for entertainment, and injury. Speed isn't the only thing that gets wickets. And then the bowling action doesn't strain muscles, tendons and ligaments, and injuries while bowling are kinda unheard of.
Yeah but nobody wants to watch a single game that lasts 2 days.
Cricket is fascinating. For baseball, it's the popular Commonwealth version of the sport that Americans ignore, for Darts, it's the more popular (but still not) American version of the sport that the Commonwealth nations ignore.
@@DerekCroxtonWestphalia Hundreds of millions of people watch many 5 day test matches every year. Just because you don't think you would watch a game that spans multiple days, doesn't mean others don't. Millions do. For many countries this is the national sport, with the national first grade teams being very well liked and watched.
There was Randy, there was Maddox… but then, there was _Pedro!_