The Monsters in Undertale Are Just Expressing Themselves
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- Опубликовано: 29 сен 2024
- Wanted to try out a solidjj-style comedy video about my favorite game. Maybe it's even funny.
Made with help from @Funknovalu.
Oh, and happy early anniversary.
"Stop playing the victim, you attacked Frisk first"
"If those monsters could read, they would be very upset"
technically it's your turn first every battle except for sans, so you can't really say they attacked first if you're trying to kill them from the beginning
If u kill them in first route itself defense if it's you trying to do a second run then your evil
@@EEE.654You encounter them without choice and a some of the time you can’t run away the first turn. Also, even if you act the first turn, they still attack you so they obviously aren’t using it as self defence
@@EEE.654 If you're doing pacifist they attack first cause you ain't hitting the fight button.
If someone attacks you, realizes you're stronger, and then backs away with their hands up, killing them isn't self-defense. The monsters surrender halfway through the battle if you use violence.
Completely ignores whimsum who can’t hurt you unless you actively try to hurt yourself and when you talk to, it runs away
@@aresrivera9744 Then why does he start the encounter in the first place?
@@santiagojoaquinrojas9435 if you read the text it says “whimsum approached meekly”
An encounter does not mean a battle . Dating somebody or hanging out count as an encounter as shown with alphys papyrus
@@santiagojoaquinrojas9435 who said whismun started the encounter, if Shyren is anything to go by, frisk can also start encounters themselves “Shyren hides in the corner but somehow encounters you anyway”
Isn't whimsum like a bug?
Hey Frisk, what about Papyrus, who specifically is the only person who CANNOT kill you.
He spares you before you can kill him, so its more that he's the kindest monster in the underground or whatever
He's very evidently still alive in the video lol
He said something along the lines of
“BUT IF I CAPTURE YOU, THEY MIGHT NOT LET YOU GO…”
“AGH! WHO CARES? JUST GIVE UP ALREADY!”
just because someone doesn’t kill you doesn’t make you a threat
especially since he specifically disengages when you’re at 1HP
papyrus is just beating you almost to death
it’s kind of better than outright killing them, but papyrus would still be a reasonable threat, especially with the fact that you’ve only made it through his puzzles so easily because you were *extremely* lucky
@@stellarisplayer7798 ok?
Completely successful, I cracked up 7 times
Flowey: NO, YOU HAVE TO OBEY ME!!!
*The 7 human times you cracked up:*
Why does this make me crack up too lol🤣
Ooooohh, so that's why they were sealed underground. It was really hard to tell who was a threat and who was friendly, but still a threat
if you were a monster im pretty sure youd attack frisk, idk if i would be very kind to the race that commited genocide and sealed my kind underground in a death prison with no escape but human souls.
They were sealed underground because humans are racist. Reminder that the "war" before they got sealed was more like a genocide, thousands of monsters died, not a single human died.
@Rogueboss2budgetedition yes, it makes sense that monsters attack Frisk while In the underground, but I meant that while they were above ground, I thought they maybe used magic to express themselves, resulting in people getting hurt, resulting in the war and sealing underground.
@@johnwilliamson4368wasn't the actual reason that the humans feared the power monsters gained when absorbing a human soul and so that's why they started the war?
@@ahmed4363 dunno, was it?
"A monster tries to kill me for no reason and no one bats an eye, but when I kill him in self-defence, everybody loses their minds."
_-Frisk Undertale_
I dont really get this argument, cause the only time you really get guilt tripped for killing is if you kill Papyrus, who physically can't kill you
@@aaronking2020 physically can but wont
If you fight a normal monster long enough, you can spare them
@@Bossfanboyyeah, how does that change anything?, he still tried to kill you first, if he dies while you are defending yourself its not your fault
@@Santifanz If the momster surrenders, and you attack them anyways, is that defense?
I think that a lot of neutral routes are justified, but geno and some of it’s aborted neutral runs aren’t, because in those, frisk ACTIVELY HUNTS the monsters down
Real.
Basically, high LV neutrals aren't justified and genocide isn't, the game says this itself, during sanses judgement, if you have LV 2 he doesn't blame you
If I knew these monsters wanted to exterminate my entire race, I'd hunt them down too to protect humanity.
And Frisk does know this.
Geno route is mostly justified. It only stops being justified when you target Jerry or Monster Kid.
And it only becomes harmful to humanity once you find out Chara betrays Frisk.
@@OmegaChase1002 so basically what you’re saying is
Committing genocide on people who BY LAW are required to attack you and your people is justified because their king made that law
You also basically said
Genocide is ok because he started it!
@@kirby47897 none of the town npcs seem to be facing consequences for not attacking you so whats the field monsters excuse
Frisk a literal child getting stabbed/burned/shot defends themselves
The game: Time to go to the BAD PERSON CORNER
They don’t get hurt, their soul does.
@@robertwyatt3912 and _their_ soul is a part of...?
@@Бобёр-ю8г nothing. You literally see it leave their body every time a battle begins
@@robertwyatt3912 Bro, that's not literally what happens. The battle system is all symbolic, and the soul obviously represents Frisk.
@@HumanoidDerpling no it doesn’t characters such as papyrus mentioning the red heart during the hangout and other monsters make active reference to the battle menu it’s not just a symbolic, or game mechanic thing
This has serious "the Empire was right" vibes lmao
Even if they are unaware, killing them would still be self defence.
Also SURELY most of them are smart enough to know that what they are doing is injuring you.
The media litteracy is dead *echo*
…Magic Bullets.
1:49 Who tf is that
i don't think the point of undertale was ever that "killing isn't justified", but moreso "violence isn't always the answer." pacifist to me has always been a story about rising above conflict and looking on both sides of the situation.
killing monsters is 100% justified on your end, they're attacking you and self-defense is something that is perfectly rational.
but considering what they've been through and what they're trying to accomplish killing you is also 100% justified on THEIR end. so until someone rises above this and works out a solution that helps everyone, the war between humans and monsters is going to be a continuous cycle of bloodshed with no good ending in sight. a justified action =/= best course of action
also i think a lot of people are forgetting something about the monsters - when they were sealed underground they didn't immediately go into "human killing" mode, they tried to live in peace. asriel's death was the straw that broke the camel's back - that's when asgore decided that they need to take back what they lost.
there's some friendly monsters, as in NPCs as well that are only there to have a chat with or sell things. gerson, sans, burgerpants, the temmies...
it's just this. if the monsters win? well humanity is basically doomed. got a neutral ending? monsters are doomed to more lifetimes of suffering. pacifist ending? both sides finally make peace and live in harmony on the surface - and that's the kind of ending to strive for.
100% correct. I'm not sure if I'm using this term correctly, but I think a lot of people here are suffering from media illiteracy, and are only seeing the game under a black and white lens.
yep.
The #1 problem with Undertale's message is those Monsters *ABSOLUTELY* had it coming. Like, there's nothing innocent about them!
I mean pretty sure 80-90% of those monster didn't even know Frisk is Human
@@dynamitoriel9056 PFF they just see a kid and decide to throw hands.
@@Reginald_Ritmo in what universe is offering lunch, mildly insulting you, singing, washing, healing, or petting a violent attack? you're just super allergic to magic, it's like a kid made of sugar in a water fight.
if you were a monster im pretty sure youd attack frisk, idk if i would be very kind to the race that commited genocide and sealed my kind underground in a death prison with no escape but human souls.
Friendly reminder that humans commited GENOCIDE(it was a genocide rather than a war because the humans started it, they killed thousands of monsters and no humans were killed) on monsters and sealed them in a death prison with no escape but human souls all because they were scared "but the monsters could destroy humanity!" That does not excuse genocide.
Honestly really funny this comes up as I'm writing a document on which Undertale encounters I can make a case for justifying murder for. The current consensus is, not many, but I think the funniest takeaway from it so far is that I can absolutely justify murdering Toriel but can never justify killing Jerry.
jerry licks its fingers, it has to go.
I'd like to see your argument for killing Toriel
Funny thing is at the end of the day it’s not frisk killing it’s us. So still it’s morally wrong
@@DaviUndertale Not OP, but Toriel essentially assaults a child (by burning them) to keep them hostage, and dies very unexpectedly if the child fights back.
Considering that most children can’t time travel, I would not blame a child for killing someone under those circumstances.
@@DaviUndertaleShe's throwing fire at a child and tried to put living with a human child unconsensually over saving an entire race of monsters.
This is why the Neutral Run is 100% the most realistic outcome and canonically I think it’s safe to assume that Frisk would never get Pacifist on the first try, you gotta reset.
Well yeah, of course there's got to be a reset, Flowey resets it back after the Omega Flowey fight so you can get a true pacifist ending.
Realistically a kid would just run away from all encounters
@redbepis4600 That actually matches with their personality, too. The bandage always allows you to run away from random encounters and sans states in a pacifist run that when they run they do it with a smile (which considering pacifist is the route where you learn their name and they show the most personality, correponds to what they'd actually want to do. Especially since they seem to dislike using violence, shown by hitting the dummy, where they feel bad until you get at least LV 5+)
@@redbepis4600 what about the fights you can’t run away from? undyne canonically has a method to keep foes in place, and there’s a few other encounters that you can’t run away from.
the neutral non backseated run is literally part of the intended experience, i find it sad how very few people realize the discovery of the different routes are by themselves a spoiler
Missed opportunity to bring up Toriel being nice to you...
Then trying to fire ball you once you try to leave.
And then getting mad at certain people for trying to kill you while never acknowledging that she could have deescalated the situation the entire time
She literally won’t kill you tho. If you have low hp she misses her attacks.
@@PotatioBaconio She still attacks you WITH FIRE.
@@zangryomani1257 if Toriel is so bad for non-lethally fire-blasting you, how bad is the player for murdering possibly dozens of people?
@@PotatioBaconiotoriel can kill you, yeah she tries to avoid you but she still can kill you
Shut up Flowey, you don't have the say here since you tried to kill me.
And he's the one that taught us the famous "Kill or be killed" phase.
@@unknowed5048 He's right, but his reasons for telling us were wrong.
I'm pretty sure Flowey attempted Genocide, and criticises us for killing Toriel.
Shoutouts to the MVP Papyrus, the only monster who can’t kill you. He just sends you to his totally not suspicious garage.
@@edcola6671 he even heals you to full HP, it’s like someone beating you up then paying for your medical bills with their own money
@@TEMP-vm1mtI wish Toriel healed me.
Yeah the monsters were definitely trying to kill you and they are in the wrong for that. My interpretation of the pacifist story is that people who do bad things often have a reason and it's not out of pure malice. This doesn't justify their actions or make them right, but trying to understand their side can help you to reach a better solution.
the only monster you should spare realistically is papyrus, because if its your first time fighting him and playing undertale you will die a couple of times, that and he doesn't kill you
Not really. He actively tries to kidnap you, and still hurts you.
@@Krupnik8 To be fair, when you have him on the brink he DOES surrender. If he's running low on HP he'll do the really cool regular attack bit early, so he'll always spare you before you can actually kill him.
@@themustachioedfish5988 Yea, but if somebody tries to kidnap you in real life, you ain't gonna let that slide are you?
@@Krupnik8 I mean, IRL I don't think I could bring myself to kill someone in that situation either. Like if someone's actively attacking I could probably do it but not if they're backing off.
@@themustachioedfish5988 Oh well, uh. I don't really know what to type now... Have a good afternoon(?)
Neutral is justified, true pacifist is summed by by flowey in part of his geno dialog "i solved all of their problems flawlessly" true pacifist is the perfect ending, not the realisitic one, since its impossible to get on a first playthrough before seeing a neutral ending.
The crazy part is the fact that you can spare everyone in the game on the first playthrough. You can get through the entire underground without Killing anyone on a first playthrough, it's just that you can't get through a first playthrough without fighting anyone. You have to fight Asgore and Flowey, those are the only two monsters you can't avoid fighting, minus Undyne if you count the fake punch, which I don't.
Fun Fact:
Since UT will always remember that you have completed a route before, there's a shortcut to Undyne's letter, leading straight to True Pacifist
@@prosto_a_user That's only true in the case of a genocide run, because even a true reset doesn't completely get rid of a genocide run.
I love expressing myself too!! (There are no bodies in the basement I swear)
If me singing, playing, telling jokes or healing someone kills them because they turn out to be some alien with completely different biology, that's not really my fault.
@@stm7810
If you recognise that they are damaged by it, continue, and then let them die as a direct consequence of your actions, then that really is your fault.
@@gamerdomain6618 they don't notice though, what are they meant to stare at your HP bar all the way over there?
@@stm7810
If we see a battle portrait of the enemy during an encounter, then I'm pretty sure that the same goes the other way around, and I'm pretty sure that a small child wouldn't stay completely stonefaced while being actively maurauded.
Don't bring up how they're a silent protagonist and literally never emote, because for all we know, that's mostly just stylistic representation with how often acts or cutscenes describe you as speaking.
@@gamerdomain6618 I won't say they have a neutral expression due to the sprite but because of all the dialogue that jokes about it, the only time they emote is smiling on Genocide encountering an enemy. that's the absurdity in Sans saying he's reading your face.
I feel like this is the exact reason why Neutral is required before true pacifist can even happen. Because Toby doesn’t expect anyone to spare everyone on their first run, and if they spared Flowey he tells you that all the people who you did spare could be living a better life.
Undertale is a morally grey game and people always forget about the many Neutral endings that exist because Pacifist isn’t necessarily the easiest thing to do but it is the better thing to do. No you're not obligated to save them, but what the hell are you doing with that power then?
THIS, I feel like people actively forget pacifist is not meant to be the first route you take,
People forget that the game doesn’t hate you for killing monsters. It’s the early fans that hated people for killing the monsters. The game doesn’t really care and just guides you towards the right path (and if you kill papyrus the only slack you get is his literal brother disliking you)
Uhh I'm escaping the underground
I completely agree, but this Is the meta way of seeing undertale and tbh Undertale kinda shifts between being a self-concsious narrative and being a intern narrative, kinda reminds me of the way homestuck Is narrated.
@@gamercentral2417The game only hates you for going out of your way to inflict as much suffering as possible purely to see what would happen. I think we can all agree that the Genocide ending is immoral.
Screw it, I’ll join the flame war.
If someone’s method of expressing themselves causes you physical harm, you have no obligation to be friendly to them.
Literally every monster in undertale, sans (ha) Papyrus will kill you if you’re not careful.
Ergo, killing in self defense, regardless of the intentions of your attacker, is justified.
And don’t give me that “you’re basically immortal so it’s okay” schtick. One, neither the player or Frisk know that initially. Two, the monsters don’t know that. Three, even if you do know you can’t really die, dying is still very painful and can be very traumatic, especially for a child. So even if you’re “immortal,” you have no obligation to go through dying over and over again on the off chance you can save someone else, especially if they’re actively hurting you and causing you to die.
TL:DR: You have no obligation to help someone who is hurting you, intentionally or not.
@@nappa1381 Papyrus is literally incapable of killing you, also he spares you on low hp so papyrus is kinda the one exception
@@TEMP-vm1mtsort of, but he still beats a little kid to a pulp before trapping them in a cage. Also if Frisk stayed trap, Undyne would end up killing Frisk in it. Purposely or not, Papyrus would get you killed.
@@BrenninEthan903 but the thing is you can easily escape the trap and refight papyrus, where at low HP he will spare you and let you go, if you lose 2 more times papyrus will literally let you skip his fight, granted papyrus is doing the wrong thing, but in my opinion it doesn’t warrant murder especially when there is another option, TLDR: Killing papyrus isn’t justifiable
@@TEMP-vm1mt Papyrus doesn’t know you can just easily escape his cage though. He thinks he made the cage good, because he’s just goofy. Papyrus still had the intent to leave you trapped in there, then turn you in to Undyne so she can kill you and he becomes a Royal guard member. He may not kill you, but he still beats you to a pulp and leaves you in a painful state before shoving you into a cage. But killing him after he offers to skip his fight is no longer justified in killing him, as you chose to fight him and kill him.
@@TEMP-vm1mt The problem with your argument is you’re operating on the knowledge you already have. A new player won’t have that knowledge.
They don’t know Papyrus won’t kill them. They don’t know if getting captured will end with them being killed.
Either way, you can easily argue that the player is justified in attacking Papyrus if they believe their life is in danger because of him.
Lets not forget tgat asgore declared any human who fell down to be killed. They literally have a motive.
The argument that they fight you because they need your soul to come to the surface is valid and makes a lot of sense, until you have Dogami and Dogaresa who end up believing that you are a puppy. Gerson knows you're human but he doesn't try to confront you or anything.
So the plot falls apart a bit because it means that there are monsters facing you for what reason?
Yeah the problem its a lot monster doenst know you are human, becuse never see one
@@Emuotori_fr "Dogami and Dogaresa who end up believing that you are a puppy"
Yeah.They don't believe that at first.
Gerson doesn't believe in whatever asgore is saying. THis is explict.
Perhaps try paying attention?
@@crazygamingoscar7325 Dogami and Dogaressa used smell to determine if Frisk was a human, yet they assumed they were one, because Frisk had a "weird smell". this is the sole reason, if player chooses to spare them after rolling around in mud and letting them re-sniff Frisk, they end up thinking Frisk might be a lost puppy.
and where does it state about "Gerson not believing whatever Asgore saying"? show me the exact line where it is directly written and elaborate on how does it affect the person's point about Gerson KNOWING that Frisk is a human, yet not attacking one.
@@TotallyNotFanatic25
"this is the sole reason" Yeah and they're correct. Dogs have good senses lmao.
"Gerson not believing whatever Asgore saying"
I'm so GLAD YOU ASKED!
"Long ago, Asgore and I agreed that escaping would be pointless... I felt a little betrayed when he changed his mind."
Also
"Eh, fight you? No, i'm not a hero."
even on geno bro doesn't want to fight you, because he's smart enough to know that a human could flatten him.
So, considering gerson doesn't want to escape, I would deduce that frisk being a human has... let me calculate... precisely... 0% relevance to him.
The best counter argument against this the fact that you literally cannot die. To quote Sans: “If you have some sort of special power… isn’t it your responsibility to do the right thing?”
It may be the "best counter" but it definitely does not invalidate it
The best counter argument against this is the fact that dying is really traumatic for a child, fucking hurts and they don't know that.
there's also the fact that monsters usually become spare-able when they're on low enough HP
My counter is if ur the royal judge shouldn't u be able to judge others and not just one child who is younge and only seen violence in the underground
dying kinda hurts tho
It does feel like the "expressing themselves" part feels a bit taked on. You should spare monsters because they're not truly evil and you're a time traveller who can undo your death and change the world for the better, i think that's enough justification.
I think it's more like people are taking that sentence the wrong way. When I read that line I just assumed it ment something along the lines of Toriel doing party tricks with fire, or even just cooking with it. It's just that she can simultaneously use that fire for combat.
I think the game was just trying to say that magic can be used for both self expression and confrontation. It just didn't state the confrontation part because well...that's kind of obvious.
@@magic2546 you're honestly right
Okay what about the other 6?
since everyone is going at it in the comments here's a quick reminder that in the actual game they way the flowey tells you to do the pacifist route here is by straight up telling you there's another ending.
the way he words it implies that sparing everyone is just a test of mental strength and he never actually brings up whether or not it's justified in this portion of the game
toriel's really the main one who doesn't really want you to kill anyone, and flowey is just guilt tripping you throughout the game because he's a prick.
can you really blame someone like undyne for being mad when you kill someone? a lot of those monsters are her friends. biased as she is her dialogue implies she still is aware that you're a hell of a lot stronger than the average monster
sans' judgements are pretty reasonable. when you do pacifist he mentions its pretty clear that it was out of determination rather than naivety.
a lot of monsters are actively trying to beat up or kill the human but at the same time napstablook, the amalgamates and basically every random encounter until core are there to just shoot bullets without any real intent to kill you. i think monsters just aren't at any risk of killing each other with bullets, but humans (frisk and clover specifically for being player characters) can get hit by them.
i think a similar idea applies to darkners, a lot of them don't seem to have any reason to kill the heroes besides the prophecy, being hired by the guys who want to stop the prophecy, jevil wanting to commit murder for kicks and spamton specifically wanting kris' [HEART SHAPED OBJECT] so he can be 100% off.
I like how everyone thinks this book has deep lore implications when it's likely just a Touhou reference
Fr. Even before I got into Touhou I interpreted that line as just party tricks with water magic or something. It's not that hard to imagine magic being used for both fun and combat.
@@magic2546 Koishi! Also yeah, I like the idea of monsters playing dodgeball with non-harmful magic just like in Touhou where a lot of Danmaku is said to feel like getting hit with a dodgeball
There’s also a lying book that says humans can’t use magic, despite humans literally using magic to make the barrier. Monster history is spotty at best. Can’t even spell Library right and you expect me to trust them with history?
y'know what's absolutely hilarious is that 80-90% of the monsters you fight don't know you're a human and therefore aren't, like, actually trying to kill you
*you're just that weak*
now imagine if they actually *were* trying to kill you
yeah, like Undyne is half blind and still kicks your butt just by trying, Muffet isn't trained in any way, the power of Sans is that he's trying.
I've always imagined that's what a hard mode would actually be for Undertale - in a Toby Fox fashion, maybe flowey puts a taped sign on your back that says "I'm human" and tips off the monsters who then actually try
nothing a little LOVE can't fix
i love the frisk hat kid sprite, super funny
Counterargument: it takes less effort to spare monsters than kill, them, froggit? Just compliment them once to spare, otherwise hit them twice to kill, Whismun: literal first turn spare, Loox: Don’t pick on them, and it takes like 4 turns to kill them, Vegitoid? Eat green bullet once, I could go on, but I’ve made my point. Besides most monsters spare you when their hp is low enough so self defense doesn’t really even apply
Maybe it’s mostly the bosses that even though have their motives still go out of their way to hunt and kill you
@@arthurdias6860 fair enough but the video makes reference to random encounter monsters such as pyrope, and the royal guard dogs take like 1 or 2 pets for the most part, the exception being greater dog and the dogi
I used to believe monsters in Undertale were hypocritical in attacking the human, but now I see the matter through the context of racial division and a people forced to such extremes because of their oppressors. If your people were trapped and the only KNOWN way to set them free was to kill 7 of the opposition, you’d be a fool to let 7 live for the price of 100s continuously suffering. It’s like the Batman not killing the Joker thing, in the specific sense that not killing is the worst option.
While Undertale does encourage sparing and pacifism, it’s not blind to the fact these things get messy sometimes. Perhaps monsters shouldn’t be so eager to kill a human they don’t know, but similarly perhaps a descendent of the humans should be the one to show kindness first, righting a wrong in a way.
why should a kid that had nothing to do with the events that got the monster trapped be the one to accept people trying to kill them
Counterpoint: they could have just let them die of natural causes
That's the funny thing about undertale, is not really about the morality of your actions but about the cause and effects of a cosmic time hopper toying with an isolated loop in time.
in fairness, the game isnt totally against your decision in neutral runs, its specifically flowey that wants you to try and be better for his ulterior motives, and sans being aware of the concept of resetting, wanting you to take advantage of that ability and give the underground the best timeline it can get.
still though, i wish monsters would be more apologetic about attacking you. im not totally convinced the book in snowdin is trying to convince you that the monsters were just chillin with harmful magic attacks going everywhere. toriel warns you that monsters would consciously try and kill you, and thats exactly what happens. so i wish that when you spare them and see them again later in the overworld or in following encounters, that they'd apologize for their behavior.
and aslo that they'd stop fucking attacking as soon as they become sparable, it makes zero sense to me that they keep targeting and hurting your soul after becoming friendly
I feel you on that last point. There would be times where I get hit or die after meeting the sparing conditions, and I would just think "why are you even still attacking me?"
Kinda weird how pretty much all the monsters are very chill guys that simultaniosly try to kill you the moment they saw you
this post has been approved by vengeance clover
Thank you! That’s what I’ve been saying! What the game tells me and what’s actually happening are two completely different things!
In all seriousness I do kinda wish Undertale itself brought this up. I love it’s message but I don’t like how they had to simplify this very morally grey part it to just-“violence bad. Absolute pacifism good.”
Sans did mention that you have a ✨special power✨ (read: save/load power; determination) so it's your responsibility to do the "right thing".
@@abdillahahmad7025 cool that doesn't invalidate what the video brings up though
@@abdillahahmad7025No it's not i do whatever i want to 💀
@@ChrolloMana so by your logic you could murder an entire family because you do whatever you want to, and still be justified, right?
@@fsplace1238 it'd be more like, it's not my responsibility to go out of my way to spare my would be murder just because I technically can.
1:06 i heard the Subspace Tripmine sound
Humans have much lower hp then monsters, so monsters attacking other monsters won't do much harm.
Monsters also have much lower defense, at least in the files. In game, frisk starts with 10 defense, which is subtracted by 10 in the menu as you level up to the point where you gain defense naturally, but lorewise frisk has 0 at and df and lv 1, so they're incredibly weak compared to even frog it and whim sum. 20 hp is nothing compared to most monsters, as you stated, and frisks nonexistent defense only makes things worse. Most of the other comments are pretty accurate too.
the counter argument to this is literally
Papyrus
He says something along the lines of
“BUT IF I CAPTURE YOU, THEY WON’T LET YOU GO…”
“AGH! WHO CARES? JUST GIVE UP ALREADY!”
to be fair in the case of killing papyrus, he only spares you if you’re literally at 1 HP. sure, it’s better than being *killed*, but it’s not like papyrus is 100% innocent just because he always ends up sparing you at the last second.
we also don’t really have much reason to trust he wouldn’t continue to be a threat. we get insanely lucky in his puzzles with him accidentally making a trail for the electric maze puzzle that would otherwise be extremely painful, the tile puzzle being incredibly easy and papyrus deciding against the gauntlet of deadly terror at the last second. we don’t even get lucky in the ice puzzle, we’re only surviving more than one attempt of the ice puzzle because frisk can’t take fall damage.
toriel would also be a reason not to trust papyrus, since she was probably the most trustable person in the underground at this point of the game, but as soon as you try to leave she beats you up.
@@goommooster7572You actually physically cannot kill him until he stops fighting though. There is no way you can kill Papyrus before he shouts to you that he is done fighting and ready to let you go
@@goommooster7572I mean his puzzles aren’t really dangerous, I don’t think luck has anything to do with it, even if you intentionally run into the electric wall, you won’t lose any HP, meaning it isn’t really harmful, regardless, he spares you on low hp, you can’t claim self defense if the person you’re attack backs off immediately
@goommooster7572 Of course Toriel's gonna be extremely hesitant to let you leave, she lost eight children/loved ones. Idk if the other souls were kids or not.
this sure isn’t the first time i’ve seen a flame war start in a youtube comments section, and it definitely won’t be the last
in all seriousness though how do people justify child murder (if said child isn’t themselves a murderer)
petting, flexing near by, healing, giving food, straight up love hearts etc aren't attacks you're just harmed by magic since you lack it.
if you were a monster im pretty sure youd attack frisk, idk if i would be very kind to the race that commited genocide and sealed my kind underground in a death prison with no escape but human souls.
@@stm7810How do they not see the child getting hurt from that?
@@Turmoil-TheKoopaKiller I mean considering all the attacks are hitting the soul and not the body (The characters make several references to you controlling the heart so it’s not just a game mechanic) it might be harder to tell
@@shmasonwhatever3756 No one saying the monsters are justified in doing what they do, child murder is bad, but that doesn’t give the excuse to murder in return
1:51 A HAT IN TIME! ❤
human kid
magic and bullet patterns are the monsters' favorite form of self-expression, snowflake
their birthday cards are "average sans battle fangames" (which is actually way cooler than our birthday cards)
(also yeah that's canon they have bullet pattern birthday cards)
also i absolutely cracked up at the pyrope part
yeah, it's like if someone secretly made of sugar got into a water fight, or someone with a nut alergy showed up at my place without warning. the difference between guards and civilians is guards know your magic alergy.
This was my issue with undertale, you are the bad guy when you kill the monsters when they try to murder you so they can steal your soul.
Thats what ticked me off the most... I never understood why Monster need an "ability" to express themselves via dangerous attacks and shit, instead of simply talking in the beginning. They only do the talking when the battle is going for long or when you do genocide, which is stupid tbf
I kind of just assumed magic was used for both self expression and combat. I don't understand why that's so hard to comprehend.
@@magic2546 Well thats my problem, why do they need magic to express themselves. Why cant they express themselves with words?
@@clayjay2753 Let me make myself more clear. There are likely non lethal ways to use magic in order to express yourself. Napstablook might even prove this if you look at his "sorry, not feeling up to it right now" attack. But sense most enemies are actively trying to kill you, they use lethal magic instead.
@@magic2546 No dude you dont get what I meant, I asked WHY do they need to resort to magic in order to express themselves, not HOW they do it.
@@clayjay2753 Is there any reason they can't use magic to express themselves? It was just an extra bit of flavor text to add world building. I don't understand why you're acting like that can't exist for some reason.
This is THE Frisk voice
Lol, it's like in Touhou but actually deadly
Pretty much.
The monsters attack you because they want to be free and because they think humans are evil. Undyne shows this. That doesn't justify their attacks to Frisk, but the pacifist route is literally us showing the monsters that not all humans are evil, and that they don't need to fight.
You can also self defend, as if you lower a monster's hp enough, they will spare you.
not at all, since most of the monsters don't know how a human looks like
undyne for example never fought a human before, she just knew how a human looks like because of anime lol
@@Emuotori_fr Huh.
@@Emuotori_fr To be entirely honest it's not stated which monsters recognize humans or not. I mean, it would make sense that the majority of monsters that recognize them are the ones that attack you, while the ones that don't are the NPC s and Vulkin
@@Bossfanboy The argument that they fight you because they need your soul to come to the surface is valid and makes a lot of sense, until you have Dogami and Dogaresa who end up believing that you are a puppy. (and they are part of the Royal guard), Gerson knows you're human but he doesn't try to fight you or anything.
So a half of the argument falls apart a bit because it means that there are monsters facing you for what reason if they don't even know you're a human?
Frisk shoulda just scratched on the doors to the ruins like a cat let out of the house if they weren’t prepared for the danger of the underground
wow.. honestly, this made my day..♥
Nah, Undertale's core meaning has a SERIOUS problem. I can't do anything else but agree.
i love the idea that flowey agrees with frisk on some level about the whole "their magic is actively dangerous to be around unless they go through the effort to make it harmless" but is willing to gaslight them into thinking they're in the wrong so that he can ultimately become asriel
honestly undertale does a horrible job making you feel bad for anyone you kill outside of the genocide route
Im here before this blows up
I express my love towards some of the monsters from Undertale. There’s some cute ones here, hot ones there, and my personal preferences are Mad Mew Mew, Temmie and Muffet (from only the classic Undertale).
the papyrus interjections are what make this great
Frisk has a right to defend themself
Shut UP Israël supporter
The argument of “you attacked first, so you’re wrong.” Is literally the dumbest thing ever. Idk about you, but if someone walked up to me with a weapon with the intent to hurt me and I got first move, I’m attacking before I can get harmed. I’d like to see you wait to get hit first, have fun being in pain while trying to fight back, or bleeding out on the floor! “They surrendered after you beat them up.” Wish I can say the same for myself, they seem willing to annihilate me instantly with no hesitation. And no, some random 10 year old shouldn’t be responsible for taking beatings just to spare monsters, or fixing a bunch of personal issues some of them have, and especially freeing them all BECAUSE of the sole reason of having the power to restart and refuse death. I can imagine dying still hurts, and is scarring for a child, guilt tripping a literal 10 year (looking at you mainly, Sans) because they didn’t use their power the way YOU wanted them to is not your place to judge. I wouldn’t blame Frisk for wanting to kill monsters even more after dying. If Frisk kept doing genocide on purpose over and over, THEN you’d have a point. I don’t see anyone trashing this hard on Asriel/Flowey for this, considering he had this power once too, yet never used it to amount to anything.
@@BrenninEthan903 “ I don’t see anyone trashing on asriel/flowey for this” probably because Flowey didn’t have a soul and didn’t have the capacity to feel regret or love, and though it’s true, you’re not morally obligated to spare them, you don’t really lose anything from sparing them, so yeah it’s overall better to just spare them at low hp
I don’t know about you but if I was attacked, then beat up my attacker, and they were begging me to let them go, I would probably let them go (or alternatively call the police but that’s not applicable in UT), and walk/run away, not my problem anymore
@@TEMP-vm1mt they still attack after being separable, so it’s still considered self defense in that case. They don’t beg for their lives either. They also don’t care if Frisk is near death. Killing them would make Frisk stronger, I can see Frisk wanting to not take any chances on dying more and more, and wanting to be prepared for future battles.
@@BrenninEthan903 they still attack after their name turning yellow true, however the fight still ends with YOUR turn, it’s still entirely up to you to kill them, and while they don’t beg for their lives, their name is in yellow, which could just be a game mechanic but since multiple characters acknowledge the fact that we control the soul in battles, I’m also inclined to believe it’s not just a game mechanic, also while they don’t spare frisk at low hp, that doesn’t make it right for frisk to do the same thing as the monsters, 2 wrongs don’t make a right, whatever happened to being the bigger person??? Also I didn’t address this earlier, but you mention frisk doing genocide on purpose, however you can’t really do genocide on accident (you have to kill 20 Monsters in the ruins to even start the route), and in genocide, any defense for frisk flies out the window, after snowdin they’re straight up smiling when they find a monster
@@TEMP-vm1mt never said genocide could be done on accident though, really don’t know why you mentioned that. Not sure if being the bigger person can apply to this dangerous life or death situation where every monster wants to kill you, I really only meant Frisk killing monsters they meet to get stronger, so neutral. Also, I don’t think the player is a character in Undertale, people only have been saying that because of Deltarune, which are two separate games, but this is a whole new topic and we’ll be here all day talking about that.
@@BrenninEthan903 sorry I misunderstood the Geno comment, the way you said on purpose over and over, kinda implied it could be done on accident
The most realistic play through of Undertale is one where you basically beat every monster into sparing range, and if they don't surrender, you kill them.
Toriel goes out of her way not to fight you so she lives
Papyrus surrenders when you get him low enough
The dogs all attack you very armed so they die
Undyne dies for the same reason the dogs do
Metatton probably lives since you really don't want to commit a murder on a celebrity on live television
Asgore is killed because we don't have a choice there
Flowey is definitely killed because he deserves it
counterpoint, dogs are soft. always pet the dogs.
Papyrus canonically wouldn’t be able to be beaten though, more realistic is that either you live through his attacks or get beaten up 3 times
1:03 why is no one talking about the straight up homestuck sprite here bro
Sure, they try to kill you first, but death is little more than a slap on the wrist when you can just come back every time. It’s not exactly self defense when most enemies are very easy to spare, in many cases mercy is the more efficient option and killing is actively picking the harder choice that puts yourself in more danger. You can say that you don’t owe them mercy, that they deserve it for trying to kill you, and maybe that is true, but does that make it worth it? Sure, you can justify killing a bad person, but is it better to have a dead body (or dust in this case), or someone who has become a better person? And considering the fact that the only way to get the best ending for everyone, including the many non-fightable npc’s who have never done anything to negatively impact you at all, is to spare every single monster, is it really worth it to keep everyone trapped in an eternal prison just because you’re insistent on ending the lives of those that have wronged you?
Imagine getting violently murdered over and over
Cut to ribbons
Drowned
Eaten alive by spiders
Exploded to bits
And then you’re expected to spare them?!?!!!??
Just cause you can come back does NOT mean being beaten and stabbed and skinned and eaten is fun.
It’s traumatic. And fear of pain justifies self defense.
Plus, monsters are WEAK.
So even a single hit from a, what I assume weak ass stick could kill one. Consistently. So it could be claimed that the monster just fell over and died after you fuckin tripped them
Also mercy is NOT the easier option.
@@shreehang.248 Yeah but you also make the significant mistake of thinking that anyone playing the game dies that many times lmfao.
If frisk is dying that many times, its a skill issue.
@@shreehang.248 Depending on the enemy and your stats, sparing can be much faster and easier. Plenty of enemies take 2-3 turns to spare, and you could kill them in a similar number of turns or less if you have high LOVE and good weapons, but if you only have a LOVE of one and want to kill say a hotland enemy even with a good weapon it’ll probably be harder than just sparing.
And you ultimately have a choice to spare or to kill, it’s up to you to decide, but actions have consequences. And imagine the monsters perspective, imagine being killed on sight by someone because a different monster of the same species hurt them, or because you killed them an alternate timeline you don’t even remember. Imagine longing to see the sun your whole life and never getting the chance because some woshua beat a kid up so that kid killed them instead of saving monster kind. Sure, you don’t owe it to the monsters to save them all, but if you have the choice to, even if it’s a struggle, why wouldn’t you?
Now if Flowey was placed with Player... Then I would laugh.
No one can convince me that Shyren has any kind of murderous intent, lol.
Please do a skit with Frisk and Chara
Then how come only monsters are using their magic to "express themselves" with the human and nor any other monster
Because we only see from things frisk’s perspective?
@@TEMP-vm1mt why would we see it from another perspective? Plus frisk can see magic when it's attacked or the spear of undyne so it should be possible to see that if it was true
It's really crazy how the entire fandom just waves away all the character's hypocrisy cuz of one single insignificant line of dialogue in some book in some useless room early in the game.
Missed opportunity to say “friendliness pellets”
Expressing there selves with bullets ✨magic bullets✨
With actual intent factored in, I can put it like this:
Most random encounters: attack you by total accident; some don't even wanna be there.
Royal Guards + Canine Unit: want to kill you, but only as ordered by Undyne.
Papyrus: absolutely doesn't kill.
Mettaton: was designed with human murder in mind, and even past those tendencies, i think he mostly believes successfully grabbing your SOUL would even further boost his popularity.
Sans: Only trying to kill you in Geno out of obligation (last monster left before Asgore) and to attempt to piss you off/bore you enough to make you quit.
Toriel: most likely doesn't want to kill you, as shown by the alternate pattern when you're low on health, but has to prove you're not ready for what she believes the rest of the Underground is like.
Asgore: never wanted to kill humans in the first place, but had to keep to the promise he made to his people out of grief and anger. Doesn't want to kill you, but has to for his people.
Undyne: Wants to kill you, in all 3 route types.
Flowey: Wants to kill you. Wants to kill EVERYONE.
Chara: a bit of a tricky case here; they pressed Asriel to fight back against the people of their village, and has been explicitly described as hating humanity, but whether that all maintained for the Chara we see in Geno or if they're simply misguided by our actions is never explained. Given how quickly they were okay with joining monsterkind when adopted, I personally believe they would never agree to our slaughter of monsters if they were alive. They DO press us to play another route if we repeat Genocide, too, so I don't believe they're even intentionally evil.
Jerry: jerry.
Holy media illiteracy.
Reading that one dialogue made me almost regret doing pacifist. It was like when someone says something so inconceivably stupid you instinctively clench your fist like you're ACTUALLY gonna hit them, but won't
I feel like the people that genuinely think this forget how like Multiple undertale monsters know that you can reset. The game knows you can reset, and the fact that you aren't just a 5 year old. And that the game literally tells you "Stop acting like it's self defense you literally feel no pain and can't die you are literally the god of this world. You hold a bigger responsibility to be the better person"
From the very beginning of the game, Toriel says that monsters living in the underground will attack humans, either out of fight-or-flight or loyalty to the King’s decree of every human that falls down must die. Attempting to murder someone and expressing themselves are not mutually exclusive behaviors, similar to someone using high-level kung fu to beat the crap out of someone. For a normal human child in an environment where everyone wants to kill them, self defense is not only justified, it’s downright expected.
However, Frisk is not a normal human child. They happen to have an otherworldly cosmic power that allows them to escape death entirely and alter the outcome of any situation they find themselves in. Saying that Frisk has an obligation to preserve themselves above all else is a farcical statement due to the fact that they cannot possibly die for good, and their unlimited agency over life and death in the underground should come with the burden of unlimited responsibility. To be blunt, the issue is not fighting to survive, it’s fighting to do the right thing. Sure, they could kill a monster on accident and from an outsider perspective it could seem justified, but every monster they killed is a monster that they have the power to save and chose not to.
“I understand self-defense. You were thrown into those situations against your will… …but if you have some kind of *special power*… isn’t it your responsibility to do the right thing?”
- Sans, Neutral Route (after killing Papyrus)
I know this is satire, but:
The game never tries to tell you the monsters are harmless or don't want you ded. But it does fall on you as the immortal time manipulator to find a peaceful way out.
Like, if you're immortal, dying shouldn't really be an issue.
The funny part is most mosnters(excluding bosses and a few like the mercenaries in the core) are implied to nto know what a human looks like and are interacting with you like they would a normal monster without an itnent to kill. They just accidentally kill you, so this would justify frisk killing without time powers but not without.
As I grew up and took a step back I realized how weird it is that the game acts like you’re the guy for defending yourself and guilts. Like some I get but others they had it coming
Also heard someone once say that the game “hates players that kill monsters” and I always thought that was stupid
Me explaining why UTY genocide (or neutral, at least) should be canonised:
This is completely unrelated to the conversation but do you ever think about how a human in the underground is like if a cryptid was randomly walking through a neighborhood for humans?
Flowey, you kill because he's bored and sadistic. Neutral run players are killing in self-defence. We are not the same!
...
Sure, most of the monsters have sympithetic motives, and while taking the high ground may be heroic, but it is by no means morally mandated, when they are atempting to kill you.
@@agsilverradio2225 i understand why you think self defence is justified, but thinking the genocide route is justified when you kill glad dummy and papyrus who tried to SPARE you and didnt even ATTACK is just completely dumb logic.
Nahhh the new fairly odd parents kid XDDDD THIS DESERVES MORE VIEWS
Is that fresc Undrtayl on thumbnail?
They always came at him in a public situation and made him defend his own life, even if he wasn't happy with the devastation. Also, humanity first; xenos never.
FRISK IS GENDER NEUTRAL, HOW DARE YOU!!11!!1!1!1!! 😡🤬😡😡🤬😡😡😭🤬🤬😭😡😡🤬😭😭😭😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😭😭😭😭😭😭
The monsters are attacking cause of asgore so yeah
Love the Hat Frisk sprite
Mfs when they say 'bro the player has the option to spare,they have to do it so',bro a damn bunch of monsters wants to kill the shit out of a kid,and do i have to give all of em mercy in return?hell naw
jesus christ type thing. if someone hits your cheek, let them hit another. strange logic, assuming that Frisk is a child, not a monk who would just endure everything thrown at them without doing anything in return. i'm pretty sure that if Frisk didn't have prepared ACTions, they wouldn't have known what to do with monsters to make them spare them. like how Frisk can flirt, joke, compliment and etc. someone who literally are beating them to death?
so when people saying "there is mercy button so you should spare them", it applies solely on a player, not on a frisk from lore side.
They just messing around, it’s not they’re fault you die from a brisk touch of a soap bubble due to being human :[
Very few characters know you’re a human (Those being Asgore, sans, papyrus, undyne, and Gerson) with only 2 of those having bad intentions, one of which _cries while having to do it_
if you were a monster im pretty sure youd attack frisk, idk if i would be very kind to the race that commited genocide and sealed my kind underground in a death prison with no escape but human souls.
@@TotallyNotFanatic25if you were a monster im pretty sure youd attack frisk, idk if i would be very kind to the race that commited genocide and sealed my kind underground in a death prison with no escape but human souls.
@@Rogueboss2budgetedition and you'd be wrong. if i was a monster, i wouldn't have known Frisk was a human, since war happened long time ago, and most of monsters don't even know how humans look like. for me Frisk could be a weird monster and that's it. i'm also not a biased thing, would be cautious around a human, but not a mad lad who just attacks just because of old grudge of my own kind, smh
This is why Woshua is the best monster.
1:03 HOMESTUCK REFERENCE SPOTTED
Y'know, this would be a good argument against playing as a pacifist in Undertale...
If you didn't literally have time travel powers that makes it literally impossible to die because you control time and go back anytime you die.
You make a good point, Still, I would imagine the feeling of DYING would have an effect on the person
@@TEMP-vm1mtexcept Frisk isn’t really a person. They are a vessel for us to control throughout the underground. The only pain to come from dying is annoyance at losing progress.
@@PotatioBaconio No? Frisk has shown their own agency, in the true lab if you chose laugh at Snowdrakes mom, the narrator will specifically state “What? You didn’t do that?”
@@TEMP-vm1mt Frisks personality is nothing but a slight extension of what route the player is on. Frisk doesn’t laugh at snowdrakes mom because their on the true pacifist route, a route where you have to act compassionate to every monster, so they are more benevolent and selfless as a result. The same happens with the genocide route where they become more sadistic and remorseless because you’re on a route where you are killing everything.
Also, the twist that Frisk is their own character does little to actually give them character, other than the characters now referring to them as Frisk.
Yeah, and also people forget whos making the decisions here, it's not a scared child, it's a thing above your existente puppetering a body, the player
The other humans got to asgore probably wihtout killing anyone, otherwise, humans would have a really bad reputation
Also game mechanic and fun
Papyrus didn’t do anything wrong he just puts you in YOUR PRISON BOX
Then Undyne comes and fucking murders you.
@@Thankedsphere99 papyrus spent a long by time making that prison cell. His feelings are hurt
This is so peak
Like.
THANK YOU
yeah self defense, sure, it is basically impossible to do a genocide route without grinding, and killing the enemies who spare you from the start, but sure, keep telling yourself your in the right and there in the wrong.
This doesnt cover the genocide route, its a neutral route
genocide is wrong, no mercy is ok
@@bloodrinkernot even no mercy is ok, papyrus literally spares you on low HP there’s no excuse for murdering papyrus
@@TEMP-vm1mt he was kidnapping you, also he still beats you to the brink of death, where if it werent for a design flaw, you wouldve frozen to death
@@bloodrinker still doesn’t justify murder, especially when he literally opts to skip the fight entirely after 3 losses, you have to go out of your way to kill him, sparing him is literally the easier option, also what do you mean frozen to death?
Nothing