Cheng Style Baguazhang (Bagua) and its Founder, Cheng Tinghua
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 17 ноя 2024
- This video introduces Cheng Tinghua and discusses some details of Cheng Style Baguazhang.
Topics include:
1, Who was Cheng Tinghua? (0:55)
2. Why does Cheng style Bagua have a special position in the Bagua system? (7:12)
3, Main branches of Cheng style Bagua. (12:16)
4, Demonstration. (18:35)
5, Lessons learned from Cheng Tinghua (22:27)
Connect with me:
Facebook: / hai.yang.int. .
Twitter: / yanghaimontreal
Odysee: odysee.com/@Ha...
Email: Hai.Yang@daoi.org
Check out my videos introducing the internal styles:
Tai Chi Overview: • Tai Chi Overview
Ba Gua Overview: • Ba Gua Overview
Xing Yi Overview: • Xing Yi Overview
Xiu Dao (Daoist Meditation) Overview: • Xiu Dao (Daoist Medita...
Internal Style Lecture Series: • Internal Style of Prac...
Comments section rules:
No hate
No discrimination
No spam
No politics
#InternalKungFu #InternalMartialArt #InternalStyle #HaiYang #XingYi #TaiChi #BaGua #Montreal #内家拳 #武术 #形意 #太极 #八卦 #杨海
I just noticed that I mistakenly said 42 instead of 52 regarding Cheng Tinghua's age but the information in the subtitle is correct. Sorry for this.
Also, to reiterate a key point that could cause confusion: Circle walking and circular pattern stepping are two completely different things (09:04)"
Master Yang, you have never sounded confusing to me, sir. I appreciate your use of logic and common sense. Thank you very much.
Thanks. I received a message from one of my students. He recommended that I should clarify these contents in order not to create any potential confusion that against my intention. Again, thank you for your support.
Great.
The boxers or military people at the time were the biggest failures in Chinese military history. This is why China learned from Japan to switch to guns with blades on them and trained this way for the rest of the century. Traditional martial arts only gained popularity after it was considered a 'healthy exercise' to nationalize in schools. Before that, it was very much useless, especially in military combat.
Well, not that true. Before we make any conclusion, research should be done. But thank you for your input.
Master Yang, you are the BEST !! Hope to see you soon !!
Excellent point you made about not exceeding 120° in arm posture. It’s very clear how this would result in a great loss of power.
Thanks,
great video as always,it would be very interesting to see a video of you explaining the 64 hands straight form in cheng baguazhang.
I will make more videos. Thanks for your suggestion.
Thank you again for another insightful discussion of the internal arts. I am looking forward to seeing your upcoming videos on Cheng Bagua applications.
I would love to see a video explaining the early Bagua stepping patterns you discussed in more detail.
Yes, that will be a good idea. This video is already too long and hard to add more videos. Thanks for your comments.
It was a real treat watching this Video. The Chen style Bagua is my favorite Internal Chinese Martial art. The Chen style Bagua, with its Mudwading step, Swimming body movement and soft power, is, in my opinion, one of the most beautiful traditional Chinese martial Arts. However, I'd like to point out one error: Master Liu Jingru's Bagua does not seem to belong to the high posture or Small frame Cheng Bagua Lineages: Master Liu Jingru Bagua seems to be more characterized by a large frame and low basin stances, similar to Master Sun Zhijun. The difference between these two large frame-low Posture Masters is that Jingru's Bagua belongs to the Li Wenbiao Lineage. And, according to one article, since Li Wenbiao--one of Cheng Ting Hua's best students--was a Military man and fighter, Wenbiao's Lineage is characterized by more overt and harder displays of power. On the other hand, according to one article, Sun Zhijun's Bagua was softer , more acrobatic and flowing, and Sun Zhjun seemed to take his Bagua in the direction of Modern Wushu and Performance in Competitions(this notwithstanding the fact that Sun Zhijun was considered by many to be Beijing's best Bagua Fighter!) But sometimes a Picture is worth a Thousand words, so let's take a look:
Master Liu Jingru demonstrates his 8 Mother Palm New Frame Bagua:ruclips.net/video/eCE0YxLLhAA/видео.html
Master Liu Jingru Demonstrates 8 Mother Palms in Medium Low Posture: ruclips.net/video/w6aAnaPDxjw/видео.html
Master Ma Lin Cheng, a Student of Xu Lifang, seems to be closely related to Cheng Youxin's Small Frame-High Posture Lineage:
Master Ma Lin Cheng Demonstrates 8 Mother Palms( 8 Basic Palms):ruclips.net/video/JHWgxdpVibQ/видео.html
Thank you for your comments. Actually, regarding the classification of different postures, I have consulted a few friends of mine in Bagua community in China. Our shared agreement is that it should be based on the main forms, especially the first three palms. Of course, any branches have low-posture movement but it does not have much impact on the overall-structure. I knew Liu jingru him in person back to many years ago and being categorized to high posture or natural posture does not have any negative issues here, it is a way to classify a system based on many criteria. As for Sun Zhijun, I never met him in person but his form is Cheng Dianhua's line, and I like his practice a lot. With other Bagua practitioners together, I am not judge something based on the fighting ability but more based on the practice and technique system. I have seen Ma Chenglin's video on RUclips before but no personal contact. I may call him on the phone one day to ask him more about his practice by myself so that it would be clearly in certain topics.
So, again, thank you for your comments. and you are very welcome to share your experience here.
Fascinating as usual, considering how most circular stepping is now viewed as a trade mark for most schools, love the fact that wrestling was not considered as a martial art, assuming that is due to wrestling being as entertainment in the imperial court? Also very interested in your view of “Pan Gun” or twisting root as a practice in Xing Yi Chuan an it’s relationship to Ba Gua Zhang circle walking if any.
Thank you again for sharing.
Thank you for your comments. I think I will make a video to talk about Pan GEn in the future. Great topic you have mentioned! Thanks again.
Thank you, for your wonderful films. Very interesting.
Glad you like them!
.
thank you for showing the zigzag stepping, I had never heard of that before!
Glad you like it.
谢谢师傅的心机来解释历史和图路🙏
You are very welcome.
Thank you for this very interesting course. I always thought circle walking came from Dong Haichuan.
The explanation on angles was particularly useful: the bad habit of changing the shoulder angle rather than the hip angle is something I see a lot and needs constant correction.
In my opinion, it is also clear that your lineage places you in the perfect position to understand the specifics of Cheng style. I can't wait to hear about the stepping and wrestling techniques in your next videos!
Thank you for your comments. We all have our perceptions but things will be clearer when we check with others' opinion:)
Amazing dissertation and explanation. I used to see that waist/hips error also among many Yin style practicioners, thank you for solving with precision and 'simplicity' this and many other errors. Very interesting also the argument of the middle height training comprehending the lower and higher into itself. In Yin style we used to train just middle and low and yes, as you said we could see a Shaolin JinGang form made up of 8 hammers (directions of force) which was changed with Baguazhang flavour before the baguazhang forms (wulongquan normally) as traditionally passed down to the beginners in Wang Zhuang Fei lineage. Really love your presence and effort in spreading correct knowledge!
Thank you for your comments. It's good to know that you practice Yin style. Yin style is great! I was not lucky enough to practice this style as a system. I only studied a bit with a friend of mine when I was a teenager. In Tianjin, there were not many Yin style teachers back then, or I would have practiced this style more! This is why in this video, I only can talk about Cheng style instead of any other styles based on my knowledge and experiences. However, like you said that mistakes in practice are the same, no matter which style...it is practitioner makes the style good, not the style makes the practitioner good. Again, thank you for your input!
Have you done a video showing the lower middle and high postures and their usages in the form of Bagua? I’m trying to learn the martial art but not sure which would be best as a beginner who doesn’t have great leg flexibility for lower movements but would like to have them and a firm foundation to my martial arts.
the Liu Bin group were the people who kept chengs teachings alive in south district bejing. they did some great research and developed cheng bagua. im glad I got a chance to study Liu Bin method from Zhang Jie. we use circle walking as well as spiral walking, eventuall zigzag. the difference to me is you dont ever hold a stance, it all flows into one continuous action. I find it very weird to say that shui jiao is not considered a martial art, as a westerner. thanks for sharing.
Thanks for sharing. However, what I said that Shuai Jiao is not considered as a martial art in China since it is a parallelly developed training system. It is a tradition, not based on anything else. I just share the information of this tradition with the community.
Great to know that Liu Bin group. However, what I talked in my video is about what the early stage of Bagua's practice, nothing to do what people are practicing now: for sure I ask my students to focus on circle walking too.
I had been recently thinking about the possibility of the wrestling connection you mention, but with no way of researching it, then by suprise you give the perfect answer to that question without me having to even ask it!
Thank you for making these videos on bagua, alongside your other videos and the level of technique and power you show in them being superior to the weak and sloppy demonstrations of other teachers, they are the best information out there, a really strong example for students.
Thank you for your comments. I think it's time for us to improve the overall standard of our community by sharing information together.
@@HaiYangChannel I could not agree more, I very much appreciate someone I can trust spreading information about such unappreciated arts.
I will not disrespectfully name any well known teachers, but someone without discipline and respect enough for themselves or their art to remain fit and healthy make it hard to trust that they had enough discipline to truly learn or transmit their art properly.
On a similar note, I must pass on my appreciation that your xingyi is crisp and powerful as opposed to many who show it as limp and wavering, it made me appreciate it as a serious art, and start looking for the deeper forms to arts I might have thoughtlessly discounted, which seriously helped me grow when I had needed it several years ago.
Thank you for your encouragements. Again, as a martial artiest, we should share our information together without bias. People can see that I do not make any statement without evident and source of information. We should separate stories from history.
Thank you for knowing English language!!!
Oh. Thanks. Still improving it:)
Thank you for all your valuable information. It is greatly appreciated
You are so welcome!
As usual, fantastic information on the topic. 谢谢 🙏
Glad you enjoyed it!
Thank you so much for your excellent videos, you are clearly a true master, and a scholar
You are very welcome.
Just discovered this new series of videos. What an amazing treasure of knowledge! Thanks a lot for sharing this with us.
May I ask whereabouts are you teaching nowadays?
Thank you for your comment. I hope you like these videos. I am in Montreal, Canada.
Great video. Thanks for sharing.
Are you willing to do a series on the Wu Style Tai Chi Chuan?
Hello, I do not know Wu style enough, unfortunately. thanks,
Very nice demonstrations again - and a great little history lesson.
Glad you enjoyed it
Thank you, again, Sifu...this is so informative and interesting.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Thanks! Very interesting. Please make a lecture about Sun Lutang!
Not sure it is a good idea or not since I do not want to argue with others online. Thanks,
Ma Gui had no martial art training prior to meeting Yin Fu and studying directly with Dong Hai Chuan. Cheng Ting Hua at least practiced shuai jiao. Therefore Ma Gui was taught and practiced pure Baguazhang from the beginning. Due to having no prior training, Dong Hai Chuan had to teach him completely in Baguazhang to develop the bagua body necessary to make the techniques effective. The others, while very skilled, mixed in their prior training with what Dong Hai Chuan taught them. All of those systems are Baguazhang but, speaking objectively, due to the fact they mixed their previous training, then realistically those styles are hybrids.
Yes, everyone wants to speak objectively. And I did not mention Ma Gui's name since according to the Chinese martial art tradition, he is the third generation of Bagua even though he studied with Dong directly. I only talked about the second generation of Bagua like Cheng Tinghua but not deny others at all. So thank you for adding Ma Gui's name here.
Thanks a lot for sharing your knowledge ! Do you consider Master Zhang Zhao Dong as a disciple of master Cheng or master Dong ? Or Both?
He was a disciple of Dong Haichuan for sure. Because Dong Haichuan supervised his practice with Cheng Tinghua and Dong accepted him as a disciple. That is the martial tradition in both technique and lineage without any doubt. Thanks,
Hai Yang thanks for your response !
Very nice video! I like your approach of using the training methods (characteristics) to categorize the styles instead of the (oral) history.
Interestingly, actually Yin style today has a lot more variation than Cheng style, despite Cheng Tinghua's early passing away - not only are the forms different, but the characteristics and flavor are often totally different. Not sure about the reason for this. Perhaps it was due to the original styles of those teachers (before bagua) as well.
Thanks for your comments. To analyze a style with historical and personal experience can dramatically minimize some level of potential mistakes caused by many reasons. I practiced Cheng style and its different branches, I think I can talk about this style only.
Like you said here that Yin style has a lot of branches as well and I have never invested my time to analyze it. Also, I try to talk about some general principles in martial art practice based on my open-minded attitude toward others in this community.
Again, thank you for your understanding and support.
Cheng Tinghua's photo was discovered by (师爷）Sun Zhijun as he knew other ppl in the photo. Zag zag or circular isn't the key. Without walking on the Circle, the power won't be consolidated（合跨）. Mud- step walking lower posture is easy to practice hip, waist and back. When u do this way, waist in and out will move the whole spine.
I agree with you but only some statements will not help much.
Thanks for all your clarifications
My pleasure!
Interesting. I studied Chung style bagua from a Korean form in the United States only to get an introduction to bagua. Is there a significant difference between Cheng and Chung or is it pinyinization? I suspect the origins are different?
Same character but in different pronouncation due to dialects.
Isn't there a all linear style of bagua? I think I read it in some book before.
I hope you might do something about dragon style bagua. Don't know much about it.
Yes, there is a linear style but circular walking style is the main practice. Thanks.
I think in Yin style are some linear forms but i am not sure.
at 10:58 - the illustration you show is from Wang Zhuang-Fei's Gong Ting Bagua -- is that from a book? if it is- can you tell me the name? thanks
Hello. That is not from a book. It is from a painting. I found that one on the Internet. I know that artist. Thanks.
@@HaiYangChannel thank you, it is a very nice illustration of Wang Zhuang-Fei's basic palms
Thanks,
Truly informative. I still am unclear on what you mean by 'circular pattern stepping'. Does that mean stepping movements that involve pivoting (i.e., swinging the body using one foot as a pivot)? My original system included several drills that involved pivoting on your front foot in the direction of the back of your body, almost like a revolving door. This was often practiced with varied angles as a defensive movement often incorporating some block or parry with the front arm, followed by a burst or jump step forward with a counter attack using either arm. I have also worked on zig zag footwork where it is the back foot passing along the 'outside' of the turn which draws the angle, which is, in a way, like pivoting on your front foot in the direction of the front of your body. Are either of these types of footwork what you mean by 'circular pattern stepping'?
Thank you so much for this lecture. I have long been a bit confused about all the differences I observed in different Cheng style masters and forms. In particular, I wondered why Liu Jingru and Sun Zhi Jun seemed to move so differently from each other. Your distinction between the three different posture levels and how they relate to the various Cheng style lineages is really helpful.
I hope that you are well and, again, am so grateful to you for producing all of these more lecture-style videos these past few weeks. They are packed with so much historical and technical information and it's a true treasure to have a high-level practitioner like you providing this kind of information in such a clear and open way. You are very generous to do this and I appreciate it more than words can say, Sifu.
Thank you for your comments. It is my honor to share my experiences with others, seriously.
Circular pattern stepping is to walking along a part of a circle (not a closed circle). Zigzag walking is more linear than a circle...
The circle walking (closed circle) came much later than circular walking.
I hope it is clear this time:)
@@HaiYangChannel Ah, I see what you mean now. Thank you. Do you associate the two types of 'pivot' stepping that I described with any particular style or lineage? I hope that my descriptions above were clear enough for you to see the movements I'm talking about. If not, I can try to describe it in more detail. Please let me know. Thank you for your response.
If I understand well, I do not think that is a traditional practice in Bagua. Or at least it is not the mainstream Bagua practice. I prefer to believe that practice is a personal choice than a common practice. Most of Chinese style do not have that kind of movement, or at least based on my practice. Thanks,
@@HaiYangChannel Well, if it's not mainstream Bagua practice, then personal choice does explain it. Thank you so much. I've often wondered why that particular step was so uncommon in any of the videos I've seen or styles I've researched. I truly appreciate you taking the time to answer my question, Sifu. Enjoy your weekend.
Thank you and enjoy the nice weekend as well.
Like what you said about this style Bague Kung Fu and I love your your video on RUclips do you got any DVDs a person can learn this from your school I would like to order from you if you DVDs
I am developing an online program but no DVDs. Sorry.
Hello, I am not a practitioner of Ba Gua, but I have practice many others in different times and at different levels of expertise. I found the angle explanation very interesting, although, I agree the optimal first angle should not be more than 100-120 degrees ideally in an average person but not every person is the same in martial biomechanics, not the same muscle strength and not the same bone structure, hence, maybe the practitioner should have some flexibility to explore further angles fornhis\her optimal performance. For the records I like your Ba Gua style.
Hello, first of all, thank you for your input. However, what I am talking about here about Bagua angle is an important principle. Of course people can practice in different way, but basic principle should be respected. Variation is not the excuse of forgetting the fundamental.
@@HaiYangChannel I completely agree with you. Thank you for our teachings.
Your..channel..if..very..good..idea...we.are..van..channel..from..indonesia..country..in...sumatra..island..thank..your..master....wushu..all..
Teleportation at 22:26 :)
Weak tripod is the reason:)
I think with enough training, your eyes will eventually see him in that instant.
thank you for your time . I thought the taoist have been circle walking for thousands of years .... so the founder didn't walk the circle ?
Taoist walking use Jiu Gong, Jiu Gong is not circle walking at all. Jiu Gong is a circular pattern stepping instead. Also, Daoist walking is for religious reason mostly, I studied it as well. Thanks.
👍
Thanks.
Yin Fu was the first private student of Dong for at least 10 years before Dong taught anyone else publicly but didn’t learn circle walking in his early Bagua lessons?? At what point in Yin Fu’s training from Dong did he learn circle walking then??
Who told you that Yin Fu was the students of Dong for at least 10 years earlier than others?
If you think Dong Haichuan taught the circle walking in the beginning, could you share your source information with me?
Also, let me point it out again: Circle walking is different from a circular pattern stepping.
Hai Yang I don’t have any sources on hand but you can look at most information about the history of Baguazhang in books and the internet, all the if not most of different ones I’ve read through the years have a variation of Yin Fu as DHC first student who traveled with him for ten years collecting taxes for the emperor or prince prior to DHC openly teaching Baguazhang.
Here’s a passage about Yin Fu from combatBaguazhang.com
“Yin started studying with Dong in the mid 1860’s. Dong first taught Yin Fu Luo Han Quan because this was the style being taught at the palace before training in Bagua. He spent twenty years with Dong. For ten years, he was collecting taxes for the Court in Inner Mongolia. History records that the teacher and student practiced morning, noon, and night, and it was during that time that Yin learned the entire system. He popularized the Tornado Palm and Ox Tongue Palm techniques of the Bagua system. He was Dong’s first and by far his longest serving student.”
Please, why are you talking about Yin Fu here? I am talking about Cheng Tinghua. Did I said anything wrong about Yin Fu? Or did I use the wrong photo?
Also, Who told you Yin Fu studied Luo Hanquan with Dong Haichuan? Are you serious here? In the article (combatbaguazhang.com/YinFu.html) that you are citing here, that author even said in that article that there are different versions about this and why do you only believe this one if it is the ONLY source of your version? Let me tell you, this story in that article is wrong. I have interviewed a lot of Bagua experts before and ALL of them told me that Yin Fu studied Luo Hanquan from others.
And Luo Hanquan has nothing to do with Baguazhang. So, why Dong Hai Chuan had to teach Yin Fu the Luo Han Quan (shaolin style) before teaching him Baguazhang? What's the logic here?
Furthermore, when Dong went to Beijing, he was in his later 40s or early 50s. He did not have time to train Yin Fu for 10 years ONLY and then to teach other students. That's impossible because if he did this, then he would have time to teach other students at all. Please make a simple mathematic calculation based on their ages and you will figure out that your claim is incorrect by yourself, please.
I hope my answer is clear.
Hai Yang the question was about the introduction of circle walking not Yin Fu directly he was just an example to use to clear a point! Thankyou for your reply! I wish you all the best in your teaching and study!!
If so, please focus on your point in the future. Also, please enjoy your practice.
But in our days shuai jiao practitioners much stronger then all wushu stules including Bagua,all Bagua practitioners dont know how to use their mouvements,they only do circle walking, maybe only Yin syle Bagua have some applications for example Xie Peiqi Bagua, others dont know nothing.
First of all, just let's assume your first statement about "shaijiao practitioners much stronger than..." but it has nothing to do with this video. Also, what do you mean stronger here? Body mass? or what? For the sake of clarification, could you please clarify it in more details?
Second, you said they "all bagua...only do circle walking.." but that is not true. Or at least it is not true according to my personal observation. Are you making your conclusion based on RUclips?
If you think Xie Peiqi line has some applications, then how about your second claim? Is Xie Peiqi line stronger than Shuaijiao practitioners?
Let's be logic and coherent here, please.
@@HaiYangChannel Well shaijiao practitioners much stronger in everything i mean stronger in technic in mass and other aspects.My conclusion ofcorse based on Youtoube and in comunication with some China masters in China and out of China well i saw that they forget all practical usage of Bagua.Well maybe it is bad luck and i dont saw real good masters in Bagua and Taiji. My friend lives in Taiwan and he learn Baodin Shaijiao he said that even in Taiwan practical usage of different kungfu styles very poor and that is why he start train in Shaijiao and he said that all chineese martial arts came from Shaijiao. And about Xie Peqi yes it is all RUclips because it is a first time when i saw real usage of Bagua,which i dont saw in China and Bagua seminars. Ofcourse it is just my opinion and maybe i am not right.
Hello,
I think I understand the reference and source of your information now. Thank you for your input and good luck to you practice. Have a nice day.