It appears, that Lightroom automatically applies some noise reduction to Leica files, which I didn't notice. However, there still is a clear difference between the Leica and Lumix high ISO performance. If you download my RAW samples, please make sure you use the same settings for both files, if you compare them,
Yes, I've often noticed Adobe doesn't convert or 'develop' to jpeg as well as the camera does. The software doesn't always understand the camera. The software is fine for correcting small faults but if the photo is good it serves little purpose. If the photo is poor, and I take a lot of those, it goes in the bin. I shoot jpeg+raw but I do not want to spend hours post-processing, partly laziness. I shall use the raw if I want to change the look of the photo but more often than not the camera has made a better job of it than I can. Another way to look at it is the manufacturer will have spent a lot of money developing the 'engine' attuned to the camera whereas Adobe software is general purpose and often has certain peculiarities.
@@jeffslade1892 its a big mess of software to learn, so I understand your point and mostly agree. I would say its worth remembering adobe also spends lots of money on their software. Saying that, I do think the cameras can make excellent output without adobe etc, though I would say the quality of the shot has nothing to do with whether of not it needs post processing. Many of the greats used the darkroom extensively, cropped, dodged and burnt their way to their iconic shots. I dont think either way is better, just both have there uses, like shallow depth of field or hdr, over used and a little boring, but when used to good effect with purpose, wonderful and beautiful shots come out.
@@kalisti2323 @Jeff Slade computational imaging is well overdue for cameras. Manufacturers are still holding their breath on the power of the Raw file that’s being taking over gradually with every new major smartphone release by its powerful computational imaging advances. Camera manufacturers continue to sleep and their slice of cake is being eaten by smartphones.
@@kalisti2323 If I want to reprocess a good shot I will use PS or LR on the raw, maybe to stack or combine shots or do something clever, but I shall only keep raw for up to 2 years and then delete them en masse, they take up too much space. If I haven't used them by then, I'm not going to. The best single shots though don't need redeveloping, or they can be redeveloped in the camera, a jpeg may only want cropping. Imo Adobe's software tries to be something for everyone but often fails to properly understand some makes' raw files, and makes a proper breakfast of it.
I received a copy of your magazine yesterday and really enjoyed it. You did a great job with the layout. Especially liked the macro shots of the insects. Was surprised you didn't include any images with the G9.
I think shooting colour RAW and then converting to B&W is good enough. If I really wanted B&W for big prints, I would rather invest into an old 35mm or 4x5 film camera (and an extension on the house for the dark room, I guess that's included in the equivalent budget of the M10). Thank you Matti, have a great day!
@@mattisulanto it should offer a good value for the money anyway. Would you be able to tell the difference between the Leica and my trusty GX80 on a mobile screen or even a laptop iPad. ? I used the S1 with the super sharp 50mm 1.4 via Lumix UK on a loan, I certainly saw a difference on larger screens in colour. In black n white...no. The 20mm 1.7 on my G9 is hell of a sharp lens. In this case I guess this camera is for an extremely extremely niche audience.
@@ofmetalphilosophy4837 I don't think anyone can tell the difference between a "real" camera and a phone camera on Instagram, if both pictures were properly executed. You can of course show off with a real camera and make some insane bokeh or whatever, but other than that, it would be hard to tell the difference just by looking at the sharpness or tonality.
The differences are that with a monochrome camera - 1. You have no choice and hence possible psychological hesitance when you are shooting. 2. “Value” is relative to the photographer/buyer. Personally the M10 Monochrom is too expensive for *me* (I COULD buy it but it wouldn’t be wise) but for others, especially those who make their living as a b&w photographer, then it makes total sense.
I enjoyed this review very much. I shoot with a Sony A7RIII and get excellent B&W conversions from it. Most of my work iends up being B&W hence I also shoot with a Leica Monochrom (M9) version. The M10 Monochrom is very tempting but for now, I’ll stick to my kit.
I love the M10 Monochrome. It’s a definite buy for me. That and the Leica APO-Summicron-M 35mm f/2. Definitely must haves. And in many ways cheaper than other cameras, because the philosophy for many Leica owners is that you buy one lens and one camera for life. Leica is the cure for G.A.S.
I hope Leica makes an SL2 or Sl2-s monochrome camera. I own an SL2 and have now 9 Leica M mount lenses. I would buy any Megapixel Leica would produce. 40mp would be plenty for me. My gripe with the rangefinder is I am spoiled with the 5.7mp SL2 EVF, and I never have to worry about external optical VF, parallax or close focus.
@@mattisulanto I have l mount close up adapters so I can fill the frame better with my M lenses. Matt Osbourne does this with many of his portraits and his B&W pics of those beautiful models he poses are great. He uses film, but digital would be at least as good. Without the adapter most RF lenses only focus to 0.7 meters. EVF with both magnification, peaking and IBIS and the ultra high EVF megapixels makes wide angle photos and close up photos a big advantage with an SL2.
Leica release the Q2 monochrome, and it had another advantage you see the EVF and rear LCD in B&W, so you now know how the scene looks before you take a picture. Most people have trouble imagining a B&W version of what they see in color. Monochrome composition is made easier when you see it in real time
I had a chance to shoot a few pics with the M10Mono - took the images home, did a lot of pixel peeping and rammed the sliders all over the map. I was so impressed I bought the Q2Mono and it's my favourite and most creative-assist camera!
Thanks Matti! Basically, I agree with your conclusion that though Leica images have slightly more detail in general both cameras can be considered on par. Does it make sense for me to have separate B&W camera? It would have sense if there would be B&W LED displays because in color LED displays we constrained by 256 grades of grey only. I event think the B&W film photography makes more sense in case if photographs are printed using optical enlarger. If the B&W films are digitalized the tonal grades are also lost either in the scanner or (in case the scanner is true B&W) in ultimate LED display used for viewing. In general modern visualizing electronics provide great enhancement in color imaging comparing with color film photography of the past but we seem lost greatness of B&W photography with all these new electronic devices.
I would definitely buy a dedicated monochrome canera, but prices are insane. Camera companies went from better serving corporations and the rich to catering to amateurs, but that wasn't enough. They had to jack prices so we could barely afford more than one camera. This after selling us digital cameras they had no compatible lenses for.
I'm surprised that Fuji hasn't issued a B&W version of one of their 'street' cameras. At the price point they'd likely offer, I might be in the market for one.
My guess is, that it would be too much a niche product and a normal color camera can do good enough B&W. However, I'd be happy to see another monochrome camera too.
I enjoyed the voice over while you shooting video of yourself. Your videos have definitely improved because of it. I'm happy for you. Keep up the good work. After all you are in the business of entertainment.
Please make a video about Leica m10D next. I wish Leica would combine that and monochrome camera into one. I would do a heist to Rajala to get on of those!
On the sharpness test I wonder if the small difference is not, in substance, attributable to the lens. I owned a Sigma 45 and used it on an SL2. It is built like a tank. Incredible value for the price. It was, however, noticeably softer throughout the aperture range than my SL zoom. It might be that the 35 summarit, now discontinued was probably 3-4 times the price of the Sigma. ,. The Leica really ought to be better on this score alone for the extra outlay. I used an M246 for a year before changing it for the Q2M. There is a discernible extra degree of clarity and punch to the fine details in complex scenes ( think individual blades of dune grass, highly textured foreground rocks) from the Q2M than I get from my SL2 and so I too think there is some gain in sharpness/resolution still coming from removal of the colour filter but the gap has narrowed a lot.
All Leica cameras (SL and M) guess / calculate an approximate aperture which is added to the EXIF data when using M lenses as they have no means of recording the actual aperture settings. Interestingly the Maths Photographer compared the M10R colour with the SL2 (same base sensor as the S1R) and found the highlight recovery was terrible on the 47mp sensor, but excellent on the M10R.
Thanks. If you read the comments you can see that approximately quite many have already told me that same thing about the aperture😀 I can’t say anything about the M10R, because I have never even seen the camera.
The reason for the discrepancy in the EXIF data for the aperture is because the Leica has no idea what aperture the lens is actually set to due to their being no mechanical or electronic communication between the camera body and lens. The camera estimates the aperture for EXIF purposes.
Unfortunately your test not showing the best what Monoscrome can do. Distant greenery always looks messy on Bayer sensor, as details there are close to pixel size. Monochrome just always looks perfect there.
Did you not compare to the Lumix monochrome Photo-Styles? These usually produce better images than LR conversion. They also allow you to use various B&W colour filters to emphasise contrast, such as that red roof, and now we can fiddle with the grain size too. The camera understands its own Bayer when it scrubs the colour data but the pixels still have their RGGB filters, so some data has to be lost. Does the M10 Mono model different mono film stock?
I decided to do it like this. The M10M does not have different photo styles, but it has some toning options. Please watch my other M10M video too for more info.
The aperture numbers for the Leica are often wrong because the Leica lens is totally manual. There is no electronic communication between the lens and the camera. Therefore the camera is required to make an estimate of the aperture based on other factors of the exposure. All M cameras are like this.
I like the idea of a specific b&w camera but it would be a luxury I cannot afford. I'll be happy enough to render colour to b&w. The Leica is marvellous but it's like having the best car in the world, which only works on 10% of the roads. Too restricted.
I rather shoot raw and keep the color. But I've seen Fuji monochrome they look really nice. There is a place people send their Fuji cameras to have the filter removed. I do like Fuji black and white. I have the X-E1 and the 27mm f2.8 very nice black and whites with Lightroom. Only downside is DXO PhotoLab and DXO PureRaw don't support X-Trans sensors. So best to keep your ISO low. Or use Topaz DeNoise if you have to or Lightroom Luminance to remove noise.
Digital Leica M cameras don't know the actual aperture setting, because there's no digital contacts from lens to body. They have a small light sensor (or they had, can't see it on the monochrome, but maybe it is integrated into the rangefinder by now) and try to calculate from the ambient light hitting this small light sensor compared to the readings from the light meter which aperture you might have set. They err quite often. EDIT: Spotted the light sensor, it is in the front corner right-hand to the shutter-speed dial, somewhat above the small rangefinder window. Where it sat since the M8 (but it was somehow more prominent in the early models).
I think only the high iso test is revealing. Sharpness and colour rendering can be explained by the difference in equipment/procedure. (and as you said is not critical) It makes it more and more difficult to find a niche where this €10K camera would fit in.
I'd love to see a removable Bayer filter so one could switch between B&W and RGB with the same body. I wonder if that would be technologically feasible. I can get great B&W results with DxO software (Silver Efex Pro in particular), but it would be nice to have every photosite dedicated to only showing greyscale values. That and Leica glass would work well for me. Obviously, one could carry a Monochrom and another M10, and why not mount a 50 Noctilux and 28 Summilux and stuff a 75 or 90 Noctilux in your (parka) pocket--it's only money... Too bad I like to shoot longer FLs.
So my question is this: What is the difference on a LUMIX camera between using Photo Style set to Monochrome or instead using one of the 3 different Monochrome filter settings? And how are any of these affected by modifying the contrast, saturation or tone settings within the monochrome choices? Worth an entire video, I would think...
If I had the opportunity to buy an MFT camera with a B/W sensor, I would buy it. As i still primarily shoot b/w analogue, it would be the right digital addition!
maybe I'm wrong on this, but given that sensor pixels capture light in RGB values, the Leica camera must be applying a B&W process in camera. I have to say that I cannot see the point of a B+W only camera. There are an infinite number of ways, and a myriad B+W presets for processing RAW files so I'll save my money ...
The idea is to have more fine discretization of B&W images than rendered via RGB by assigning R, G and B the same magnitude. One can convert RBG 12-14 bit RAW to 16 bit greyscale TIFF and thus preserve at least 2^14 shades of grey. But there's not available displaying technology at present.
Maybe it is just me, but I preferred the Lumix images, except for the high ISO ones which were obviously better. You would have to be really dedicated, and rich, to buy such a niche camera as the Leica. Still, it is an interesting camera to contemplate.
Me too, I don't know if it's my eyes or monitor but I saw more detail and sharpness in the Lumix images, nothing that couldn't be attributed to lens or processing differences though. Contrast varied but that's likely down to changing light in between shots. Having RAW images in color would make it easier to edit for a black and white final image as well since you can easily make saturation and contrast adjustments based on color values. This gives you a lot more control. I would have thought a dedicated black and white sensor would have given much better results than shown here but looking at them side by side I'd never pick the Leica based on image quality although it's tough to really determine that from a a RUclips video. Although I don't think the Leica image is good enough to spend more money on (I actually think it looks worse), I had the money I might get one for the form factor and design.
Hell Sir, very informative, as usual! I have S1r, and I am very happy about the output of it! Could you please suggest B&W setting for S1r, for contrasty pics? Thank You!
If you want in camera B&W for jpeg, select one of the Monochrome Photo Styles and then use the Highlight and Shadow sliders to fine tune to your taste. Experiment and see what you like. Camera menu > Photo Style.
To me, the whole point of the M10M is low light photography - daylight differences are clearly visible but not worth the $$$. At night, that view changes completely - the M10M is by far superior in tonality, grain, practical use. Just depends on where you hang your heart… (money aside)
If you show pictures without labeling there is almost no difference in sharpness. At least no $5000 difference for sure.... And if you shoot on 50mm F1.4 lens it will even more sharp. At low light it is better, I think, while it can use larger area per pixel (1 big instead of three RGB) as well that 40MP and 47 MP its about 20% of extra area per pixel.
Did not think the comparison was apples to apples. Not sure if the Lightroom preset was good enough, in my opinion, after the preset was applied to the S1R, it wasn’t raw anymore. I wonder if you applied the same preset to the Leica file and compared the before and after to itself would there be a difference. Also, does the S1R have an option to shoot monochrome in camera? If it does, that would eliminate have to use a Lightroom preset. This, giving a more level comparison.
Like I said in the video, there are probably many ways to do the same comparison. Of course it's not apples to apples, because the other camera is monochrome and the other is color.
Chromatic rendition of the Leica is probablely questionnable with reds so dark. It looks like orthochromatic . The S1r is not wellknown for his high iso performance ( the weakest among its peers 40/50 Mpx) but the Leica looks amazing. Each photosite receive 100% of the light. Same thing regarding details rendition , each photosite makes 100% of the job.
Lumix has monochrome mode too. You can shoot in monochrome and jpg fine. The look you can control by settin sharpness, contrast, filter (and grain). The comparison best shoot with Leica vs. best shoot with Lumix direct out of camera would have been important! The darker performance of red tones with Leica for example depends on the settings and is not suitable for comparison. The story of Leica M10 is a matter of making a cult out of a rediculous piece of high-tech camera that is colorblind. Nowbody needs a Leica M10 to shoot black & white pictures. Especially Lumix users are provided with three outstanding monochrome modes! - Nevertheless, dear Matti Sulanto, many thanks for your videos! We'll se us!
Yes, I'm fully aware of the Lumix Monochrome settings and I have a video about that too. However, when you make comparisons and if you decide to compare every possible variation or option, the amount of work accumulates really quickly. There are dozens of variations of the Lumix Monochrome, if you use every optional setting. So, I decided to do it like this mainly because I don't shoot jpeg very often. Maybe my next comparison will be something else😀 It's good to remember, that if I feel some camera/lens is useless, it's only my opinion and someone else may find that same camera/lens very much useful.
@@mattisulanto I see and you're right. But pixel-peeping doesn't help, if I'm considering to purchase or not the Leica M10. As a Lumix fan I am bound to say, that my GX9 and my G9 provide nice varieties of first class b&w shooting too.
@@andreasrochow5170 I don't think anyone is going to buy the M10M based on my videos. I made this video, because not everyone can borrow the M10M and try it.
I love BW. I have a Sigma sd Quattro where I removed the IR filter to. Make. BW shots. But... I love my S1R too. Does it is possible to create a BW profile and share with us?
Hi Matti :) No, I will not buy a monochrome camera, today that seems like a stupid idea. I often walk a whole day with my camera in black and white mode, but I know that if I want I can make color images of every shot if I want to. With a monochrome camera you need to use filters, with colors you have multiple "filters" on the computer.
It seems the only available technology to viewing B&W photographs is to use 10-bit LED color display supported by laptop (perhaps MacBook PRO is capable). In this case there will be displayed 2^10 shades of grey. It's significantly better than 8 bit. Need to keep in mind: just 10-bit monitor is not enough. 1) computer (Operational System) must be able to output 10 bit RGB to monitor. 2) RAW files should be converted to 16-bit TIFF greyscale format files and the viewer program must be able to process images as RGB 10 bit.
I have a 10 bit monitor connected to my Mac Mini M1, but I have no idea what the true color depth is. However, there is still big difference between a cheap and a good monitor, regardless of the bit depth.
@@mattisulanto Basically video adapters render 24 true colour RGB, 8 bit per channel. 10 bit monitors use extra 2 bits to justify brightness and contrast for particular image. I read that Canon and Nikon now produce native 10 bit JPEGs which can be handled as 10 bit by certain video cards, presumably on Macs.
@@mattisulanto Some state those who look at it disappointed -- ppl are incapable to perceive such fine grained color palette but capable to perceive tonal depth. So perhaps 10 bits make sense for B&W.
@@sstansm7f I suppose it depends on the photo, if you are going to see much difference compared to a normal 8 bit jpeg. I guess people expect something unreal and then they are disappointed, when the picture looks like any jpeg.
“Quality, not quantity” was Robert Pirsig’s motto in ‘The art of Motor Cycle Maintenance’. For those who want to experience that Quality, the Leica is the way to go. I bought a brand new diesel engine for my boat at half the Leica’s price, and Leicas are unfit to move boats.
I have seen many Leica Monochrome photogs pictures. So far only very few are capable of decent results from it. If you have time, LTM, M film cameras will do better BW for less money. And if here is no rangefinder style photography involved where are many not expensive film cameras.
Thanks. Sure, film is a good alternative, but also a different medium and not suitable for everyone. Also "better" is a matter of personal taste, of course. Don't get me wrong, I like film.
I wanted one as soon as I saw it, its a shame only leica love photography enough to make mono cameras XD jk, but it would be nice to have an option cheaper. Lumix has some lovely mono profiles, so really its probably better not to make niche products like this in the current camera landscape. Noise doesnt offend me that much :D Gorgeous piece of kit though!
@@mattisulanto This is why. There is no electronic linkage between the lens and the camera so each camera utilizes a secondary light meter outside the optical path to estimate the ambient light. It compares that against the shutter speed, ISO and lens specs, then estimates the aperture used. But since the secondary meter isn’t through the lens, it is just an estimate. Sometimes it matches. Often it’s off by a stop or two
I would love a dedicated monochrome camera that is definitely more affordable than the Leica M10. I would use it along side one of my other cameras every time I go out to take photos.
Probably, but with a B&W camera you can't make color pictures at all, but with a color camera you can make both. Even at the same time. That was my point, when I said you sacrifice colors. By the way, I really like your Instagram😀
@@mattisulanto Ridiculous reply……fact is they are different cameras and are a totally different way of using them. Why not compare a view camera with a point and shoot next time?
@@g4lamos The idea was to compare a dedicated monochrome sensor camera and a bayer array sensor camera. These two have almost the same resolution and therefore, in my opinion, it makes sense to compare them. If you watched the video, you probably noticed, that I was not comparing the cameras, but the image quality of the cameras. Anyway, I wish you all the best and I hope you can find many other comparisons on RUclips, that make sense to you😀
It appears, that Lightroom automatically applies some noise reduction to Leica files, which I didn't notice. However, there still is a clear difference between the Leica and Lumix high ISO performance. If you download my RAW samples, please make sure you use the same settings for both files, if you compare them,
Yes, I've often noticed Adobe doesn't convert or 'develop' to jpeg as well as the camera does. The software doesn't always understand the camera. The software is fine for correcting small faults but if the photo is good it serves little purpose. If the photo is poor, and I take a lot of those, it goes in the bin. I shoot jpeg+raw but I do not want to spend hours post-processing, partly laziness. I shall use the raw if I want to change the look of the photo but more often than not the camera has made a better job of it than I can. Another way to look at it is the manufacturer will have spent a lot of money developing the 'engine' attuned to the camera whereas Adobe software is general purpose and often has certain peculiarities.
@@jeffslade1892 its a big mess of software to learn, so I understand your point and mostly agree. I would say its worth remembering adobe also spends lots of money on their software. Saying that, I do think the cameras can make excellent output without adobe etc, though I would say the quality of the shot has nothing to do with whether of not it needs post processing. Many of the greats used the darkroom extensively, cropped, dodged and burnt their way to their iconic shots. I dont think either way is better, just both have there uses, like shallow depth of field or hdr, over used and a little boring, but when used to good effect with purpose, wonderful and beautiful shots come out.
@@kalisti2323 @Jeff Slade computational imaging is well overdue for cameras. Manufacturers are still holding their breath on the power of the Raw file that’s being taking over gradually with every new major smartphone release by its powerful computational imaging advances. Camera manufacturers continue to sleep and their slice of cake is being eaten by smartphones.
@@kalisti2323 If I want to reprocess a good shot I will use PS or LR on the raw, maybe to stack or combine shots or do something clever, but I shall only keep raw for up to 2 years and then delete them en masse, they take up too much space. If I haven't used them by then, I'm not going to. The best single shots though don't need redeveloping, or they can be redeveloped in the camera, a jpeg may only want cropping.
Imo Adobe's software tries to be something for everyone but often fails to properly understand some makes' raw files, and makes a proper breakfast of it.
@@aviatorman8 I've no idea what cameras you are using. I've got a smart phone, at best it takes holiday snaps, and that is enough for most people.
I received a copy of your magazine yesterday and really enjoyed it. You did a great job with the layout. Especially liked the macro shots of the insects. Was surprised you didn't include any images with the G9.
Awesome! Thank you! There are going to be more issues in the future with more room for other cameras, like the G9.
I think shooting colour RAW and then converting to B&W is good enough. If I really wanted B&W for big prints, I would rather invest into an old 35mm or 4x5 film camera (and an extension on the house for the dark room, I guess that's included in the equivalent budget of the M10).
Thank you Matti, have a great day!
I can only dream about and remembering old days what there were no other way around only to spend nights with the enlarger and solutions.
Thanks.
Tbh I can't understand the use of monochrome sensor on a camera that costs an arm and a leg.
So if a camera costs an arm and a leg it should at least take color pictures?😀
@@mattisulanto it should offer a good value for the money anyway. Would you be able to tell the difference between the Leica and my trusty GX80 on a mobile screen or even a laptop iPad. ? I used the S1 with the super sharp 50mm 1.4 via Lumix UK on a loan, I certainly saw a difference on larger screens in colour. In black n white...no. The 20mm 1.7 on my G9 is hell of a sharp lens.
In this case I guess this camera is for an extremely extremely niche audience.
@@ofmetalphilosophy4837 I don't think anyone can tell the difference between a "real" camera and a phone camera on Instagram, if both pictures were properly executed. You can of course show off with a real camera and make some insane bokeh or whatever, but other than that, it would be hard to tell the difference just by looking at the sharpness or tonality.
The differences are that with a monochrome camera - 1. You have no choice and hence possible psychological hesitance when you are shooting. 2. “Value” is relative to the photographer/buyer. Personally the M10 Monochrom is too expensive for *me* (I COULD buy it but it wouldn’t be wise) but for others, especially those who make their living as a b&w photographer, then it makes total sense.
I enjoyed this review very much. I shoot with a Sony A7RIII and get excellent B&W conversions from it. Most of my work iends up being B&W hence I also shoot with a Leica Monochrom (M9) version. The M10 Monochrom is very tempting but for now, I’ll stick to my kit.
Thanks! The M10M is a very nice camera, if you can afford it😀
I love the M10 Monochrome. It’s a definite buy for me. That and the Leica APO-Summicron-M 35mm f/2. Definitely must haves. And in many ways cheaper than other cameras, because the philosophy for many Leica owners is that you buy one lens and one camera for life. Leica is the cure for G.A.S.
I hope Leica makes an SL2 or Sl2-s monochrome camera. I own an SL2 and have now 9 Leica M mount lenses.
I would buy any Megapixel Leica would produce. 40mp would be plenty for me. My gripe with the rangefinder is I
am spoiled with the 5.7mp SL2 EVF, and I never have to worry about external optical VF, parallax or close focus.
That VF is really nice indeed and a monochrom SL would be much more contemporary, of course.
@@mattisulanto I have l mount close up adapters so I can fill the frame better with my M lenses.
Matt Osbourne does this with many of his portraits and his B&W pics of those beautiful models he
poses are great. He uses film, but digital would be at least as good. Without the adapter most
RF lenses only focus to 0.7 meters. EVF with both magnification, peaking and IBIS and the ultra high EVF
megapixels makes wide angle photos and close up photos a big advantage with an SL2.
Leica release the Q2 monochrome, and it had another advantage you see the EVF and rear LCD in B&W, so you now know
how the scene looks before you take a picture. Most people have trouble imagining a B&W version of what they see in color.
Monochrome composition is made easier when you see it in real time
Yes, the Q2M is more contemporary camera.
Simple, but great review !, Thanks, from Bs. As., Argentina.
Thanks for watching!
I do love the L Monochrome D profile on the newer LUMIX cameras. How would that compare in a straight out of camera comparison?
Lumix Monochrome profiles are really nice. I have to see, if I have time to make a comparison before I have to return the Leica.
I had a chance to shoot a few pics with the M10Mono - took the images home, did a lot of pixel peeping and rammed the sliders all over the map. I was so impressed I bought the Q2Mono and it's my favourite and most creative-assist camera!
Thanks for sharing.
Thanks Matti! Basically, I agree with your conclusion that though Leica images have slightly more detail in general both cameras can be considered on par. Does it make sense for me to have separate B&W camera? It would have sense if there would be B&W LED displays because in color LED displays we constrained by 256 grades of grey only. I event think the B&W film photography makes more sense in case if photographs are printed using optical enlarger. If the B&W films are digitalized the tonal grades are also lost either in the scanner or (in case the scanner is true B&W) in ultimate LED display used for viewing. In general modern visualizing electronics provide great enhancement in color imaging comparing with color film photography of the past but we seem lost greatness of B&W photography with all these new electronic devices.
Thanks for your opinion, again😀
I would definitely buy a dedicated monochrome canera, but prices are insane. Camera companies went from better serving corporations and the rich to catering to amateurs, but that wasn't enough. They had to jack prices so we could barely afford more than one camera. This after selling us digital cameras they had no compatible lenses for.
I'm surprised that Fuji hasn't issued a B&W version of one of their 'street' cameras. At the price point they'd likely offer, I might be in the market for one.
My guess is, that it would be too much a niche product and a normal color camera can do good enough B&W. However, I'd be happy to see another monochrome camera too.
I would definitely buy one.
I am waiting for the perfecr Street Leica to appear.... The Lumix SX8 Full Frame with Tilt EVF 📸😂👍
I enjoyed the voice over while you shooting video of yourself. Your videos have definitely improved because of it. I'm happy for you. Keep up the good work. After all you are in the business of entertainment.
Thanks.
Please make a video about Leica m10D next. I wish Leica would combine that and monochrome camera into one. I would do a heist to Rajala to get on of those!
I'd make a video on every M Leica, if I only could easily borrow them😀 This was a lucky coincidence, that I was able to borrow the M10M.
On the sharpness test I wonder if the small difference is not, in substance, attributable to the lens. I owned a Sigma 45 and used it on an SL2. It is built like a tank. Incredible value for the price. It was, however, noticeably softer throughout the aperture range than my SL zoom. It might be that the 35 summarit, now discontinued was probably 3-4 times the price of the Sigma. ,. The Leica really ought to be better on this score alone for the extra outlay. I used an M246 for a year before changing it for the Q2M. There is a discernible extra degree of clarity and punch to the fine details in complex scenes ( think individual blades of dune grass, highly textured foreground rocks) from the Q2M than I get from my SL2 and so I too think there is some gain in sharpness/resolution still coming from removal of the colour filter but the gap has narrowed a lot.
Thanks for sharing.
All Leica cameras (SL and M) guess / calculate an approximate aperture which is added to the EXIF data when using M lenses as they have no means of recording the actual aperture settings. Interestingly the Maths Photographer compared the M10R colour with the SL2 (same base sensor as the S1R) and found the highlight recovery was terrible on the 47mp sensor, but excellent on the M10R.
Thanks. If you read the comments you can see that approximately quite many have already told me that same thing about the aperture😀 I can’t say anything about the M10R, because I have never even seen the camera.
Took a GX80, 12-32 and 45-175 to Australia. Small and flexible. The 45-175 is great.
The reason for the discrepancy in the EXIF data for the aperture is because the Leica has no idea what aperture the lens is actually set to due to their being no mechanical or electronic communication between the camera body and lens. The camera estimates the aperture for EXIF purposes.
Thanks for sharing. Did you by any chance have a look at the other comments. You are maybe the 10th commenter to share that same thing😀
@@mattisulanto I did look, but not to the end. Apologies.
Unfortunately your test not showing the best what Monoscrome can do. Distant greenery always looks messy on Bayer sensor, as details there are close to pixel size. Monochrome just always looks perfect there.
Did you not compare to the Lumix monochrome Photo-Styles? These usually produce better images than LR conversion. They also allow you to use various B&W colour filters to emphasise contrast, such as that red roof, and now we can fiddle with the grain size too. The camera understands its own Bayer when it scrubs the colour data but the pixels still have their RGGB filters, so some data has to be lost.
Does the M10 Mono model different mono film stock?
I decided to do it like this. The M10M does not have different photo styles, but it has some toning options. Please watch my other M10M video too for more info.
I could go for a reasonable priced Sony A7RV Monochrome & benefit from interchangeable sharp lenses
I would like a comparison between M!0 and film camera eg Leica MP
That would be nice, and who knows, maybe some day.
The aperture numbers for the Leica are often wrong because the Leica lens is totally manual. There is no electronic communication between the lens and the camera. Therefore the camera is required to make an estimate of the aperture based on other factors of the exposure. All M cameras are like this.
That's probably the case, because I remember having the same issue with other M cameras. It's worth mentioning it in the video, though.
I like the idea of a specific b&w camera but it would be a luxury I cannot afford. I'll be happy enough to render colour to b&w. The Leica is marvellous but it's like having the best car in the world, which only works on 10% of the roads. Too restricted.
I’d like to see prints done with you not knowing which one is which and see if you could tell the difference.
That would be great and maybe worth experimenting in the future with some other cameras or subjects.
Yes, I just bought the Q2 monochrome and I believe I will get the M11 monochrome next.
That sounds awesome.
@@mattisulanto Better still, I'm hoping Leica will bring out a Monochrome SL2/SL2s as I prefer it over the rangefinder M10/11.
I rather shoot raw and keep the color. But I've seen Fuji monochrome they look really nice. There is a place people send their Fuji cameras to have the filter removed.
I do like Fuji black and white. I have the X-E1 and the 27mm f2.8 very nice black and whites with Lightroom. Only downside is DXO PhotoLab and DXO PureRaw don't support X-Trans sensors. So best to keep your ISO low. Or use Topaz DeNoise if you have to or Lightroom Luminance to remove noise.
Thanks for sharing.
Digital Leica M cameras don't know the actual aperture setting, because there's no digital contacts from lens to body. They have a small light sensor (or they had, can't see it on the monochrome, but maybe it is integrated into the rangefinder by now) and try to calculate from the ambient light hitting this small light sensor compared to the readings from the light meter which aperture you might have set. They err quite often. EDIT: Spotted the light sensor, it is in the front corner right-hand to the shutter-speed dial, somewhat above the small rangefinder window. Where it sat since the M8 (but it was somehow more prominent in the early models).
I think only the high iso test is revealing. Sharpness and colour rendering can be explained by the difference in equipment/procedure. (and as you said is not critical)
It makes it more and more difficult to find a niche where this €10K camera would fit in.
Thanks. See my pinned comment also.
I'd love to see a removable Bayer filter so one could switch between B&W and RGB with the same body. I wonder if that would be technologically feasible. I can get great B&W results with DxO software (Silver Efex Pro in particular), but it would be nice to have every photosite dedicated to only showing greyscale values. That and Leica glass would work well for me. Obviously, one could carry a Monochrom and another M10, and why not mount a 50 Noctilux and 28 Summilux and stuff a 75 or 90 Noctilux in your (parka) pocket--it's only money... Too bad I like to shoot longer FLs.
Thanks for sharing.
So my question is this: What is the difference on a LUMIX camera between using Photo Style set to Monochrome or instead using one of the 3 different Monochrome filter settings? And how are any of these affected by modifying the contrast, saturation or tone settings within the monochrome choices? Worth an entire video, I would think...
You are right, it would be worth another video.
If I had the opportunity to buy an MFT camera with a B/W sensor, I would buy it. As i still primarily shoot b/w analogue, it would be the right digital addition!
Thanks.
maybe I'm wrong on this, but given that sensor pixels capture light in RGB values, the Leica camera must be applying a B&W process in camera. I have to say that I cannot see the point of a B+W only camera. There are an infinite number of ways, and a myriad B+W presets for processing RAW files so I'll save my money ...
The idea is to have more fine discretization of B&W images than rendered via RGB by assigning R, G and B the same magnitude. One can convert RBG 12-14 bit RAW to 16 bit greyscale TIFF and thus preserve at least 2^14 shades of grey. But there's not available displaying technology at present.
The Leica sensor does not have any color filter and it captures only grayscale values. That's the whole point of it.
A similar comparison of the M10 Monochrom to the M10/M10P would be interesting as well. I'm sure someone has already done it though.
Red Dot Forum
Strangely I have both. Why didn’t you use the l- mount adapter to use same lens?
Well, I don't own a suitable adapter and didn't want buy it just for this one video. The Leica is not mine either.
Interesting comparison. I wouldn’t buy a dedicated monochrome camera and would be happy to convert color to bw in post.
Thanks.
Maybe it is just me, but I preferred the Lumix images, except for the high ISO ones which were obviously better. You would have to be really dedicated, and rich, to buy such a niche camera as the Leica. Still, it is an interesting camera to contemplate.
Thanks. I don't think you are alone with your opinion😀
Me too, I don't know if it's my eyes or monitor but I saw more detail and sharpness in the Lumix images, nothing that couldn't be attributed to lens or processing differences though. Contrast varied but that's likely down to changing light in between shots. Having RAW images in color would make it easier to edit for a black and white final image as well since you can easily make saturation and contrast adjustments based on color values. This gives you a lot more control. I would have thought a dedicated black and white sensor would have given much better results than shown here but looking at them side by side I'd never pick the Leica based on image quality although it's tough to really determine that from a a RUclips video. Although I don't think the Leica image is good enough to spend more money on (I actually think it looks worse), I had the money I might get one for the form factor and design.
Hell Sir, very informative, as usual! I have S1r, and I am very happy about the output of it! Could you please suggest B&W setting for S1r, for contrasty pics? Thank You!
If you want in camera B&W for jpeg, select one of the Monochrome Photo Styles and then use the Highlight and Shadow sliders to fine tune to your taste. Experiment and see what you like. Camera menu > Photo Style.
To me, the whole point of the M10M is low light photography - daylight differences are clearly visible but not worth the $$$. At night, that view changes completely - the M10M is by far superior in tonality, grain, practical use. Just depends on where you hang your heart… (money aside)
Thanks for sharing.
If you show pictures without labeling there is almost no difference in sharpness. At least no $5000 difference for sure.... And if you shoot on 50mm F1.4 lens it will even more sharp. At low light it is better, I think, while it can use larger area per pixel (1 big instead of three RGB) as well that 40MP and 47 MP its about 20% of extra area per pixel.
For the price of the leica I would be more then happy with a s1r with more lenses.
Yes. Wise choice
Did not think the comparison was apples to apples. Not sure if the Lightroom preset was good enough, in my opinion, after the preset was applied to the S1R, it wasn’t raw anymore. I wonder if you applied the same preset to the Leica file and compared the before and after to itself would there be a difference. Also, does the S1R have an option to shoot monochrome in camera? If it does, that would eliminate have to use a Lightroom preset. This, giving a more level comparison.
Like I said in the video, there are probably many ways to do the same comparison. Of course it's not apples to apples, because the other camera is monochrome and the other is color.
Chromatic rendition of the Leica is probablely questionnable with reds so dark. It looks like orthochromatic . The S1r is not wellknown for his high iso performance ( the weakest among its peers 40/50 Mpx) but the Leica looks amazing. Each photosite receive 100% of the light. Same thing regarding details rendition , each photosite makes 100% of the job.
Lumix has monochrome mode too. You can shoot in monochrome and jpg fine. The look you can control by settin sharpness, contrast, filter (and grain). The comparison best shoot with Leica vs. best shoot with Lumix direct
out of camera would have been important! The darker performance of red tones with Leica for example depends on the settings and is not suitable for comparison. The story of Leica M10 is a matter of making a cult out of a rediculous piece of high-tech camera that is colorblind. Nowbody needs a Leica M10 to shoot black & white pictures. Especially Lumix users are provided with three outstanding monochrome modes! - Nevertheless, dear Matti Sulanto, many thanks for your videos! We'll se us!
Yes, I'm fully aware of the Lumix Monochrome settings and I have a video about that too. However, when you make comparisons and if you decide to compare every possible variation or option, the amount of work accumulates really quickly. There are dozens of variations of the Lumix Monochrome, if you use every optional setting. So, I decided to do it like this mainly because I don't shoot jpeg very often. Maybe my next comparison will be something else😀 It's good to remember, that if I feel some camera/lens is useless, it's only my opinion and someone else may find that same camera/lens very much useful.
@@mattisulanto I see and you're right. But pixel-peeping doesn't help, if I'm considering to purchase or not the Leica M10. As a Lumix fan I am bound to say, that my GX9 and my G9 provide nice varieties of first class b&w shooting too.
@@andreasrochow5170 I don't think anyone is going to buy the M10M based on my videos. I made this video, because not everyone can borrow the M10M and try it.
I love BW. I have a Sigma sd Quattro where I removed the IR filter to. Make. BW shots.
But... I love my S1R too. Does it is possible to create a BW profile and share with us?
Maybe I'll make some B&W settings for the S1/R in the future.
@@mattisulanto ❤️
Hi Matti :) No, I will not buy a monochrome camera, today that seems like a stupid idea. I often walk a whole day with my camera in black and white mode, but I know that if I want I can make color images of every shot if I want to. With a monochrome camera you need to use filters, with colors you have multiple "filters" on the computer.
Thanks for sharing your opinion.
@@mattisulanto :) Have a nice weekend Matti
It seems the only available technology to viewing B&W photographs is to use 10-bit LED color display supported by laptop (perhaps MacBook PRO is capable). In this case there will be displayed 2^10 shades of grey. It's significantly better than 8 bit. Need to keep in mind: just 10-bit monitor is not enough. 1) computer (Operational System) must be able to output 10 bit RGB to monitor. 2) RAW files should be converted to 16-bit TIFF greyscale format files and the viewer program must be able to process images as RGB 10 bit.
I have a 10 bit monitor connected to my Mac Mini M1, but I have no idea what the true color depth is. However, there is still big difference between a cheap and a good monitor, regardless of the bit depth.
@@mattisulanto Basically video adapters render 24 true colour RGB, 8 bit per channel. 10 bit monitors use extra 2 bits to justify brightness and contrast for particular image. I read that Canon and Nikon now produce native 10 bit JPEGs which can be handled as 10 bit by certain video cards, presumably on Macs.
@@sstansm7f I read about the 10 bit jpeg too.
@@mattisulanto Some state those who look at it disappointed -- ppl are incapable to perceive such fine grained color palette but capable to perceive tonal depth. So perhaps 10 bits make sense for B&W.
@@sstansm7f I suppose it depends on the photo, if you are going to see much difference compared to a normal 8 bit jpeg. I guess people expect something unreal and then they are disappointed, when the picture looks like any jpeg.
If only the Q2 monochrome was a little bit more affordable...
Yeah, that is really sweet. Maybe a used one some day😀
Always great videos.
Thanks again!
Panasonic need make the GX8 at version FF.
“Quality, not quantity” was Robert Pirsig’s motto in ‘The art of Motor Cycle Maintenance’. For those who want to experience that Quality, the Leica is the way to go. I bought a brand new diesel engine for my boat at half the Leica’s price, and Leicas are unfit to move boats.
Ha! Very good. And boats (or their Diesel engines) are unfit to take pictures. Balance...
@@soarfm TRUE!!!!!
I like that😀
Errrrrrrrrrrrrrr viewing on a Samsung UHD 28" monitor and the Lumix shots look better x.
They should call it "Leica M10 O", where "O" stands for orthochromatic 😂
I have seen many Leica Monochrome photogs pictures. So far only very few are capable of decent results from it. If you have time, LTM, M film cameras will do better BW for less money. And if here is no rangefinder style photography involved where are many not expensive film cameras.
Thanks. Sure, film is a good alternative, but also a different medium and not suitable for everyone. Also "better" is a matter of personal taste, of course. Don't get me wrong, I like film.
Leica M has no physical or electrical connection to body. Body tries to guess aperture by comparing external light meter vs ttl.
Thanks. Check out how many similar comments I have received😀
I wanted one as soon as I saw it, its a shame only leica love photography enough to make mono cameras XD jk, but it would be nice to have an option cheaper.
Lumix has some lovely mono profiles, so really its probably better not to make niche products like this in the current camera landscape. Noise doesnt offend me that much :D
Gorgeous piece of kit though!
Thanks.
Leica M lens coding only transmit efix information about the lens being used and not settings.
I would like them both 🤭
When you use analog Lenses you won't get the aperture information. This has nothing to do with Lightroom
You are correct, but I still can't see the aperture value in LR or any RAW developer.
@@mattisulanto This is why. There is no electronic linkage between the lens and the camera so each camera utilizes a secondary light meter outside the optical path to estimate the ambient light. It compares that against the shutter speed, ISO and lens specs, then estimates the aperture used. But since the secondary meter isn’t through the lens, it is just an estimate. Sometimes it matches. Often it’s off by a stop or two
I would love a dedicated monochrome camera that is definitely more affordable than the Leica M10. I would use it along side one of my other cameras every time I go out to take photos.
Thanks.
If you spend $10k on a BW Leica odds are you will have more than one camera .. the other color capable
Probably, but with a B&W camera you can't make color pictures at all, but with a color camera you can make both. Even at the same time. That was my point, when I said you sacrifice colors. By the way, I really like your Instagram😀
Well, if money was not a consideration, of course…
For a lot, a lot, a lot less $'s...maybe.
Lumix? Tried to buy it. After 2 faulty bodies returned cancelled and went for a Sony A7R 4. What a great piece of fate!
Do real photographers shoot raw of film? 🤣
They drink raw developer😂
this is a silly ass comparison.....theyre completely different cameras and styles of shooting....
That is your opinion and you are entitled to it😀
@@mattisulanto Ridiculous reply……fact is they are different cameras and are a totally different way of using them.
Why not compare a view camera with a point and shoot next time?
@@g4lamos The idea was to compare a dedicated monochrome sensor camera and a bayer array sensor camera. These two have almost the same resolution and therefore, in my opinion, it makes sense to compare them. If you watched the video, you probably noticed, that I was not comparing the cameras, but the image quality of the cameras. Anyway, I wish you all the best and I hope you can find many other comparisons on RUclips, that make sense to you😀