A few things: 1. My experience with my M10M is that it works like a medium format camera. The effective pixel use is mind boggling and reminds me of my Mamiya 7. It feels like I’m shooting 100mp files. This begs the question: for people who think that the M10M will become obsolete and they will wait for the M11M - what else do you need? 24mp was great, 40mp (especially monochrom) is an insane amount of info, 60mp will lead to huge files which will not lead to any additional benefits. 2. 60mp handheld is a real challenge. I tried the M11 and unless you keep a high speed, it will not be sharp. 3. The high ISO may not be important to everyone but go shoot in a music club with an M6 or M11, you’ll quickly be hitting 3200-8000 ISO in no time. The files might look cool but the noise becomes an issue which is NEVER the case for the M10M.
I love your reviews Hugh. They are serious, reflective, personal and considered and yet not overly so. Life is too short. Lets go out and take some shots. Who knows, one of them might be a masterpiece..
Would be certainly interested and fun. However, I assume the differences can be seen only when printed really big and will depend heavily on the glass used as well as how much the files needed to be pushed in post. Also, the workflow is different and one may prefer either one for reasons. 😅
Hugh, the coolest line ever for any M11 vs. M10M discussion or for any photographic content on RUclips: «stop watching me, go out and shoot». No messing about, it kills this discussion by its root in a very good way. Like a plot twist at the end of a good movie. You’ve nailed the message in my opinion! Warm regards from Oslo!
I got an m10 Monochrom and after playing with it for a month, returned it and got an M11. I must say, I do miss the M10 Monochrom immensely; However, I don't regret purchasing the M11. Only thing is, I wish I could have both! With all that said and done, if I had to do it all over again, I would keep my M10 Monochrom and save enough to buy M11 at a later date. As the Gentleman said, it all is a personal choice and preference.
Interesting perspective! I’ve been torn for a long time for the same reason regarding my M-A. I badly want a digital M Monochrom (M11 Mono one day, I hope), and the only way I could probably afford it earlier is by selling my M-A. Voices have told me (both mine and that of others) that I should hold on to my M-A. I would hate myself if I sold it for a digital Monochrom which becomes outdated every 4-5 years. My M-A is still as relevant today as it was at its announcement in late 2014. I think I’ll just need to keep saving for that latest Monochrom instead of selling either my M-A or any M lens I’ve got.
You make a very compelling case for the M11. I am happy with my M10R so the M11 is probably not on my immediate horizon. However the easy battery and card access is tempting. As for b&w, I wrestled for years over shooting with an M mono or converting. I see more comfortably in color so to satisfy my b&w "itch" I opted for a Q2 Mono. Problem solved (for me). Parenthetically, the first year shooting with the Q2 Mono I found myself shooting more video than stills. That's been a lot of fun.
I am with you on the sharper looking photo from the M11, noise/grain doesn't bother me like it seems to bother other people. I used to find shooting with HP5+ gave me just the right look of some grain but not enough to interfere with my image.
I have a Q2 and an M10M. This setup suit me well. Personally I can live with only BW, but you know in life, sometimes you gonna help your wife to take some portrait, some doggy photos, and my wife making pearl fashion accessories and cookies so I need a lens with Macro. The Q2 fits well, an all rounder. When I’m creating my own photo on the street I don’t need Macro and color so I use my M10M for street and create photo that I wanna create. The Q2 is more like satisfying others, since most people likes color and product shots somehow need color.
Always loved your channel and most fo the videos, todays was no exception. I wish I had the disposable income that would allow me the extravagance of purchasing the M11, I suppose I will have to make due with my M8.
Hugh, I am so happy with my M11 and Voigtländer APO lenses.. Everything you said in your video I agree with. As much as I loved my M10M the M11 is just head and shoulders such a pleasure to use
I bought the Voigtländer 50mm APO and the results are great. I got unlucky with my copy of the lens though - the focus ring does not engage correctly with the lens, there is a little play in between turning the ring and it engaging. I sent it back on warranty, hoping to get it fixed soon. I never had this problem with any Voigtländer lens, so I do not know how much of a QA issue it is at large. Maybe look out for it when you get a Voigtländer lens.
Hugh, my biggest concern with the M11 and its high resolution is to what extend it can be used hand held to produce tack sharp images at 36MP and 60MP. I find that at 24MP on my M10, I can apply the 180 degrees focal length to shutter speed rule: with a 50mm lens I get consistently tack sharp results at 1/50s or faster handheld (without any kind of support, the way an M camera should be used). It's obvious this rule does not apply the same way on 40MP for the M10 Monochrome or M10R and certainly not for the M11 at 36MP or 60MP. I've seen RUclips reviews of other M11 owners who confirmed this concern in their own results and they state that they had to up their shutter speeds considerably at 36MP and 60MP to get sharp results to make use of the higher resolution. Or use a tripod - which in my opinion somewhat negates the reason to carry such a compact camera in the first place. I think this issue/concern makes for a great video topic on your channel. Here are some ideas: * How does the non-stabilized M11's high resolutions (36MP, 60MP) change requirements for faster shutter speeds compared to the M10's 24MP and the M11's 18MP? How many stops faster shutter speed is needed for perfectly sharp results at high resolution for a given focal length? Using 50mm as an example is good as it's slightly longer than normal and issues are more pronounced, yet it's a very popular focal length and not too long. When accounting for the need of faster speeds, what is the impact on noise performance/image quality when comparing the M11 to the M10? * Hasselblad and Fuji provide stabilized, high resolution cameras at 100MP in similar price ranges as the M11. To what extend is a "medium format" (if you want to call these slightly larger than 35mm format sensors that) camera with IBIS a better option than an M11 without any stabilization? Obviously, Hasselblad is aiming at Leica with how they are marketing their latest camera in terms of handheld street work. * Your views on where the SL line of cameras will end up, assuming it will benefit from the 60MP sensor in the next iteration and the fact it has great IBIS. If you have to choose between an SL3 with 60MP and no need for a tripod versus the M11 and the need for a tripod for equal results, how does that compare to you? Just some ideas.
@@patrickjclarke Not going to happen. There is no space in the body. At least not according to Leica. Also, this would only work flawlessly with correctly 6-bit encoded lenses as the IBIS needs to know the actual focal length of the lens. You would have to manually set the focus length with the IBIS system for every lens without 6 bit encoding. I guess this information could be taken from the rangefinder coupling of the lens that engages the correct frame lines. What I find interesting is that Leica chose to make the M11 higher resolution AND reduce the weight of the camera considerably, a combination of choices that does not make much sense to me. A heftier camera body provides more inertia and a more stable platform for longer shutter speeds. For that reason alone I would probably prefer the brass M11 over the aluminum M11.
For a 50mm lens you need a shutter speed of 1 to 2, i.e. 1/100 and 1/150 for 50/0.95 x2d is too heavy for street, much worse in manual control and has a very small selection of optics compared to Leica M. It's best role is landscape and portrait. I dream about M autofocus only when shooting a portrait on a 50/0.95 lens)))
Hugh: I have a a Leica Q2 & a Q2 Monochrom. Both great cameras, but the monochrom really shines for B&W. I also have a Leica SL2 with various lenses, so I am waiting for an SL2 Monochrom to appear!
I chose the M10-M rather than the M11 because I wanted a B&W camera, not a color camera that I could render B&W from. I've been doing B&W rendering from color captures in digital for decades now, and I find it easier to simply work entirely in B&W using traditional tools - B&W Yellow, Red, Orange, and Green filters - which, with the M10-M's astonishing sensitivity and dynamic range at high ISO, don't limit what I'm doing. I don't make huge prints so the "measly" 40 Mpixel sensor seems enough ;) ... and the M10-M's feel and and dynamics in use suit me just fine. The question of whether I also want an FF color camera is an open issue ... I use a Leica CL for my color work at present, as well as a Hasselblad 907x, and I could see trading off both of those for an M11 or M10-R. But I'm not ready for that move yet. IN the end, I agree with you ... which camera you pick is really a matter of what suits your personal or professional needs best at the level of equipment capability and quality evident in the M10-M or M11. Just pick what suits you and go make photos. :)
The other day we were in conversation with Leica M6 as an equipment to get the pleasure of having it in your hands while you shoot with it or you might be able to shoot the same pictures with a crude less expensive camera and in the discussion I mentioned about having your pictures on films and getting them finished in the dark room days is almost going to see its long and tedious journey dethroned from the grandeur of its life!! So much left unsaid in my former remarks for the future of photography which is definitely so fascinating and breathtaking to conceive of!! Nostalgia is good old days of films but the truth is the newest and ablest will make its way!! In this video if ask me to choose which one, I'll be in favour of M11 rather than monochrome M10, the only unique reason is the ease of switching from color to monochrome in a single expensive but prestigious and high precision tool and above all the pleasure of taking pictures with such an equipment that no other one is capable of summing up all these in a single tool!! I will get away with an M11 if I have to convey my message by a monochrome shot but I wouldn't if I require it for a color shot had I chosen M10 and remained handicapped until I would be able to buy another for a different purpose!! The resolution at higher ISO differs in pictures from a monochrome one, as I could apprehend is that a color film blends only three primary Colors of white light to make get the hues in monochrome transformation and actually it misses a lot of band width to grade up or down the grey scale and hence it lags in giving the same gradation of grey scale out of a monochrome films of a certain ISO level!! This is probably the reason at ISO 2500 monochrome shots differ in almost the same equipments!! But we are in a different age when mirrorless are all the rage and it's getting better every day and growing up at a huge pace!! I was just mentioning how films will ably replaced by modern sensors to give pleasant jolt to film photography!! Newest sensors would be capable of reproducing such near nature colors that we have ever seen yet!! We actually reproduced color in the final best print way different from actual color of nature it's just an adjustment that our brains make to label a picture a near perfect representation of natural color!! So we see a marked color difference from the ones those are created by different photographers of the same scene or tone!! Hence nobody even today, till this moment, is able to say the prefect color from the natural one!! In the coming days sensors would be able to liquify the whole band width available from a certain area of a picture frame which corresponds to band width of the same color missing no information in this tiny spot to liquify and blend to reflect back the truest sense of natural color and the the process will be done all over the image area to get the ultimate one color shot and this done you don't have to buy another tool to get different levels of noise in even a monochrome shot!! Focusing and other technicalities have already have a strong foot on the fray!!
Great content. Problem is the people that pixel peep at this are the ones that don’t shoot with them and just look at them in a cabinet… I recently sold my Q2M for a Q2 for the same reasons you state
I tried the Typ 246 at the time, and I really liked it. I let time pass and a year ago, trying the M10M, I fell in love with it and decided to buy it used because it was out of production. My appreciation is not only for the quantity of pixels which is perhaps too much, but the very large dynamic range which can make me recover even a lot of the underexposed areas. I repeat: exceptional dynamic range, and wide range of grays, even if the pixels are excessive. I can't compare it to the M11 because for me there remain two parallel ways of photographing, as if I were to photograph with my M7 with a roll of B/W or color film. Taking photos in B/W with a means dedicated to doing just this and which doesn't take videos is priceless and satisfying. Luca, Bologna
I have admittedly a rather eccentrically ideological view about this. For me this is an apples and pears argument, because these two cameras are not the same at all, and therefore not really comparable, in the key ways that matter to me. For twenty years I (almost) shot nothing but black and white film. That was a completely deliberate choice, for various reasons. I saw in bnw, thought in bnw, ate, slept, dreamt in bnw. Most people did, who loaded their cameras each time with Ilford FP4 or Kodak Plus-X. Now, digital gives us the choice, and not even 36 exposures at a time. Being sceptical about such flexibility is perverse, right? Yet it troubles me. Digital photography is a colour recording medium, so to me a digital camera is the equivalent of a film camera loaded with Ektachrome. It shoots in colour, ergo you think in colour. Later, in post, you can desaturate if you like. But that troubles me too. Every time I try it, and I don’t very often, I feel like I’ve done something underhand, inauthentic: as if I’m only doing it because my colour picture didn’t quite work out and maybe the alternative gives me a better chance with it somehow. I bang up the contrast, I blacken the sky, I crush the shadows, all so that I can make a picture a bit like the great Bill Brandt did. Even he cheated! By substituting plain skies with moody ones in the darkroom. And, in short order, I’m a very long way from the original scene I visualised, so far that I’ve not been true to it in any way at all. At least when I start with a true bnw medium, I’m considering what’s in front of me ONLY in those terms. I know, know. It’s a controversialist position to take, emotional rather than pragmatic. But it explains why I am so admiring of Leica for making the Monochrom in the first place, unlike any other manufacturer. Their view is plain: a dedicated bnw photographer deserves a fully and unalterably black and white camera, optimised for the medium. There is no compromise, no split intention, no hedging of bets. No second chance later. Black and white is historically axiomatic to the medium of photography and is still the purest form of photographic expression, partly because it is unique to the medium. When I really want it, I pick up a film camera again. The answer to the conundrum in this video is not batteries or usb charging or the Visoflex or any of that useful stuff. It’s whether you want to carry a colour camera, or a black-and-white one.
Very nice on point summary Hugh. The only people who would argue for an M10 monochrome are those who haven't used an M11. As for high ISO - yeah ...nahhhh. Who really cares about 12500+ ISO nuffery....such a narrow user case 'reason'...to buy a camera. Interesting you have opted for the Voigtlander 50 apo - amazing value for money lens - show me the difference between and the Leica 50 APO - at what ...8X the price difference? Again - yeahhh naaah...cheers Pete
I just bit the bullet and have started the process of swapping my M10M & Sl2s for an M11. The whole using filters drove me nuts. And I much prefer my own colour to monochrome mixes. I thought the SL2s was going to be the perfect answer but it’s huge. Do I really need high iso? The other reason for the change is USB charging… electronic high speed shutter, and electronic metering. I know I will be setting mine to spot (if it has that) as soon as it arrives…. Thanks again Hue
Go out and shoot? Well jokes on you Hugh. Just to spite you I'm going to re-watch the budget gourmet Leica series now to think on whether I really need an upgrade from my M Typ 246. PS: Speaking of the M ecosystem, I'd really love to hear your thoughts on the new Pixii rangefinder
It's interesting that the M11 shows a higher resolution. Yes, the M11 has more pixels but the M10M has no Bayer filter. So I expected the resolution to be more equal.
@3BMEP - Is the Leica M-monochrom (Type 246) still a viable option in 2024? I realize that I can get Hasselblad X1D II for around the same price but I kind of have my heart set on stepping into the Leica world.
Finally someone else who wants to set ISO to a main dial. Do you know of any other non-Leica cameras that allow this (set the front or back dial to ISO without having to first press another button)? I'm not sure why this is a rare feature, but as a new photographer I was surprised when I couldn't do it on my Z6, and some googling tells me you can't do it on most cameras (except arguably Fuji, and even then that's not exactly what I want. Ideally I could set the thumb or pointer finger dial).
You had me curious, I decided to see if I could set that up on p mode and yes you can have full iso control with the dial wheel on my Olympus and panasonic cameras. Also on my x100v but for some reason much more complicated to set it up.
Pentax SLRs tend to have the option, mostly. They tend to have three control dials--traditional thumb rear and pointer front dials, but also a 3rd custom dial on the top. On a KP or K1, the function of this dial is set by a separate function dial, and the K3 III has a button to toggle with the top LCD. The function could be ISO, exposure compensation, program line, jpeg presets (swap easily between color and BW), drive mode, HDR settings, and nearly anything. It's really easy to just leave it as an ISO dial, and have Shutter, Aperture, and ISO all as dials at the same time.
Thanks for this Hugh. Some - I've no experience so no opinion - is that the M10 monochrome has better tonality (micro contrast) and this is why a dedicated monochrome sensor is best. Beats me if any of this really matters.
Apples to apples, same base sensor to same base sensor, that's true, but that's where it gets tricky as the higher resolving power of the M11 seems to give you better overall detail and range of tones which might negate the slightly higher dynamic range (at ISO 800 it's a little over half a stop) and the non bayered sensor.
@@patrickjclarke Thanks. There are videos and websites showing what is claimed to be a superior image from the monochrome sensor. From what I've seen, sometimes there is a difference - but other times it isn't so apparent. The differences, if there are any really, are only visible when two identical images are compared. Without the comparison you'd never be able to tell if the image was converted or came from the dedicated monochrome camera. It's all what you are accustomed to.
I agree with you about the M11 and the 50mm Voigtlander APO. It is the combination I reach for most out of my bag. When I want to shoot B&W, I also go for the Q2 monochrome. I am carrying both in my Billingham Bag. Perhaps I should consider converting the M11 files to B&W., but I love shooting the Q2M. First-world problem, should I carry the weight of the Q2? Egads, I should just thank my lucky stars.
For half the price of a M11M, I bought a mint M10M. Frankly speaking, the evolutions on the M11 are welcome. But for me, the M10M is the cake and the M11's "plus" are the icing on the cake : I don't see why I'll pay around 5000€ for the icing. However, to each his own.
I wonder, and I know it's more futzing, but if you ran DxO DeepPrime on the M11 files, would you get much closer ISO to ISO in noise as it climbs? Now, of course you could do the same on the M10M file, but if the M11 with DeepPrime could match stock M10M noise, then the superior detail retention of the M11 would always give you an advantage...and I dare say that if you used Cobalt Images CMOS or CCD Monochrom plug-in you'd probably get superior tonality out of the M11. I have an M240 and shoot 98% BW and using DeepPrime AND Cobalts CCD Monochrom, I am getting files that are shockingly good, and better than the M9M and tonally on par or better than the M10M in my opinion.
I suppose you could summarise the answer with one concept: budget. If you can afford the M11, get it, because it's better. Otherwise, the M10M will do you very nicely. Or you could wait for the M11 Monochrom.
If Leica made a monochrome version of the D-Lux 7 (ok, if Panasonic made one), I'd buy one of those. That'd be fun, at a fun-sized-price. Seems too niche otherwise.
Nice comparison. However, many Leica reviewers do not address the poor longevity of Leica upgrades. Between January 2017 and January 2022 (just 5 years), Leica released 5 new M cameras (M10, M10P, M10Mono, M10R and M11), each one touting superiority over the previous version. Reviewers should comment on the very, very poor lifespan of each M upgrade when suggesting that the upgrade is justified by image improvement.
Another good video - thanks. I have to say though, I for one find something appealing in futzing around with the baseplate on my M. I'm a little sad that Leica seems to be moving away from it. It's a legacy design implement that is part (albeit a very small part) of what made an M, an M.
I still think someone should do a test on how long it takes someone to pop off the baseplate to get the SD card out of the M10 and double-pumping the M11 battery out for the same...my guess it's not significant...oh, and since I shoot an M240 with classic metering only, when do i need to take the battery out anyway? ;)
@@johnkasianowicz6536 Yes, logically, what you say makes sense - it's logical. :) I had the baseplate on my M6 where it was needed (of course), and my Type 240 (where it isn't needed... but I still love it being there). I'll trade in the 240 for an M10P or maybe even an M10R around Xmas time. I'm very happy that both models have the baseplate. Totally not required... but it somehow feels right to be there. It's like an upside-down lid that makes the camera body feel complete. Solid. Ready for action. Congrats on the M11, by the way. It's a beauty (even if it's missing the 'bottom lid'). :)
pixel peep pissing contests are becoming so banal at modern sensor size / megapixel levels sharpness and detail rarely make the best image dynamic range certainly is the most compelling justification
Monochrome is really niche. Only if you need a monochrome sensors. Otherwise just edit the color RAWs. Are you taking pictures in the middle of the night in a cave? So maybe better get the regular M. Who shoots ISO25000?
Well Hugh, you are cherry picking using the M11's limited and artifact littered electronic shutter. Try that resolution test again with the M11 using its mechanical shutter...I dare you.
I disagree. You’re confusing contrast with outright resolution, and most of what I’m assuming you’re claiming as high resolution is contrast arising from large digital artefacts or what we once would have referred to as grain, which is not available in the monochrome, because it has no digital artefacts because it has no photo sites, as it only records the luminance values.
A few things:
1. My experience with my M10M is that it works like a medium format camera. The effective pixel use is mind boggling and reminds me of my Mamiya 7. It feels like I’m shooting 100mp files. This begs the question: for people who think that the M10M will become obsolete and they will wait for the M11M - what else do you need? 24mp was great, 40mp (especially monochrom) is an insane amount of info, 60mp will lead to huge files which will not lead to any additional benefits.
2. 60mp handheld is a real challenge. I tried the M11 and unless you keep a high speed, it will not be sharp.
3. The high ISO may not be important to everyone but go shoot in a music club with an M6 or M11, you’ll quickly be hitting 3200-8000 ISO in no time. The files might look cool but the noise becomes an issue which is NEVER the case for the M10M.
Your voice is so comforting. Another layer of goodness to the excellent information. : )
😊🖖🏻
I love your reviews Hugh. They are serious, reflective, personal and considered and yet not overly so. Life is too short. Lets go out and take some shots. Who knows, one of them might be a masterpiece..
😊🙏🏻🖖🏻
I’d like to see m11 vs hassleblad x2d
Would be certainly interested and fun. However, I assume the differences can be seen only when printed really big and will depend heavily on the glass used as well as how much the files needed to be pushed in post. Also, the workflow is different and one may prefer either one for reasons. 😅
Hugh, the coolest line ever for any M11 vs. M10M discussion or for any photographic content on RUclips: «stop watching me, go out and shoot». No messing about, it kills this discussion by its root in a very good way. Like a plot twist at the end of a good movie. You’ve nailed the message in my opinion! Warm regards from Oslo!
Delighted you experienced it as I’d hoped, Csaba - thank you! 😊🖖🏻
Thank you for making this clip, it really helped! I was struggling these couple of weeks on which one to buy between the two.
I am so pleased with my M11 purchase. First time M owner. I have learned a lot.
Finally someone said it: they’re both wonderful.
I got an m10 Monochrom and after playing with it for a month, returned it and got an M11. I must say, I do miss the M10 Monochrom immensely; However, I don't regret purchasing the M11. Only thing is, I wish I could have both! With all that said and done, if I had to do it all over again, I would keep my M10 Monochrom and save enough to buy M11 at a later date. As the Gentleman said, it all is a personal choice and preference.
Interesting perspective! I’ve been torn for a long time for the same reason regarding my M-A. I badly want a digital M Monochrom (M11 Mono one day, I hope), and the only way I could probably afford it earlier is by selling my M-A. Voices have told me (both mine and that of others) that I should hold on to my M-A. I would hate myself if I sold it for a digital Monochrom which becomes outdated every 4-5 years. My M-A is still as relevant today as it was at its announcement in late 2014. I think I’ll just need to keep saving for that latest Monochrom instead of selling either my M-A or any M lens I’ve got.
You make a very compelling case for the M11. I am happy with my M10R so the M11 is probably not on my immediate horizon. However the easy battery and card access is tempting.
As for b&w, I wrestled for years over shooting with an M mono or converting. I see more comfortably in color so to satisfy my b&w "itch" I opted for a Q2 Mono. Problem solved (for me).
Parenthetically, the first year shooting with the Q2 Mono I found myself shooting more video than stills. That's been a lot of fun.
Another great, informative and concise video Hugh
Thank you 🙏🏻
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For some reason, I just love your Leica content. That said will be picking up a M11 myself soon.
Sold my M10M after buying M11. Agree with your analysis.
I'm the weirdo that hated the baseplate removal on my M4, M6, M7, and M10M. Rejoiced when they got rid of it for the M11 :)
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Good answer - right tool for the job you are doing.
I am with you on the sharper looking photo from the M11, noise/grain doesn't bother me like it seems to bother other people. I used to find shooting with HP5+ gave me just the right look of some grain but not enough to interfere with my image.
I have a Q2 and an M10M. This setup suit me well. Personally I can live with only BW, but you know in life, sometimes you gonna help your wife to take some portrait, some doggy photos, and my wife making pearl fashion accessories and cookies so I need a lens with Macro. The Q2 fits well, an all rounder. When I’m creating my own photo on the street I don’t need Macro and color so I use my M10M for street and create photo that I wanna create. The Q2 is more like satisfying others, since most people likes color and product shots somehow need color.
Always loved your channel and most fo the videos, todays was no exception. I wish I had the disposable income that would allow me the extravagance of purchasing the M11, I suppose I will have to make due with my M8.
Hugh, I am so happy with my M11 and Voigtländer APO lenses.. Everything you said in your video I agree with. As much as I loved my M10M the M11 is just head and shoulders such a pleasure to use
I bought the Voigtländer 50mm APO and the results are great. I got unlucky with my copy of the lens though - the focus ring does not engage correctly with the lens, there is a little play in between turning the ring and it engaging. I sent it back on warranty, hoping to get it fixed soon. I never had this problem with any Voigtländer lens, so I do not know how much of a QA issue it is at large. Maybe look out for it when you get a Voigtländer lens.
Thanks for the heads-up!
Thanks for sharing still happy with my M246. But perhaps because Iam more photography lover than gear lover. Anyway, I like Your videos.
So glad you do! 😊🖖🏻
Hugh, my biggest concern with the M11 and its high resolution is to what extend it can be used hand held to produce tack sharp images at 36MP and 60MP. I find that at 24MP on my M10, I can apply the 180 degrees focal length to shutter speed rule: with a 50mm lens I get consistently tack sharp results at 1/50s or faster handheld (without any kind of support, the way an M camera should be used). It's obvious this rule does not apply the same way on 40MP for the M10 Monochrome or M10R and certainly not for the M11 at 36MP or 60MP. I've seen RUclips reviews of other M11 owners who confirmed this concern in their own results and they state that they had to up their shutter speeds considerably at 36MP and 60MP to get sharp results to make use of the higher resolution. Or use a tripod - which in my opinion somewhat negates the reason to carry such a compact camera in the first place.
I think this issue/concern makes for a great video topic on your channel. Here are some ideas:
* How does the non-stabilized M11's high resolutions (36MP, 60MP) change requirements for faster shutter speeds compared to the M10's 24MP and the M11's 18MP? How many stops faster shutter speed is needed for perfectly sharp results at high resolution for a given focal length? Using 50mm as an example is good as it's slightly longer than normal and issues are more pronounced, yet it's a very popular focal length and not too long. When accounting for the need of faster speeds, what is the impact on noise performance/image quality when comparing the M11 to the M10?
* Hasselblad and Fuji provide stabilized, high resolution cameras at 100MP in similar price ranges as the M11. To what extend is a "medium format" (if you want to call these slightly larger than 35mm format sensors that) camera with IBIS a better option than an M11 without any stabilization? Obviously, Hasselblad is aiming at Leica with how they are marketing their latest camera in terms of handheld street work.
* Your views on where the SL line of cameras will end up, assuming it will benefit from the 60MP sensor in the next iteration and the fact it has great IBIS. If you have to choose between an SL3 with 60MP and no need for a tripod versus the M11 and the need for a tripod for equal results, how does that compare to you?
Just some ideas.
But I really wish M's had IBIS...take it back to the chunky M240 thicc and give me IBIS. :P
@@patrickjclarke Not going to happen. There is no space in the body. At least not according to Leica.
Also, this would only work flawlessly with correctly 6-bit encoded lenses as the IBIS needs to know the actual focal length of the lens. You would have to manually set the focus length with the IBIS system for every lens without 6 bit encoding. I guess this information could be taken from the rangefinder coupling of the lens that engages the correct frame lines.
What I find interesting is that Leica chose to make the M11 higher resolution AND reduce the weight of the camera considerably, a combination of choices that does not make much sense to me. A heftier camera body provides more inertia and a more stable platform for longer shutter speeds. For that reason alone I would probably prefer the brass M11 over the aluminum M11.
For a 50mm lens you need a shutter speed of 1 to 2, i.e. 1/100 and 1/150 for 50/0.95
x2d is too heavy for street, much worse in manual control and has a very small selection of optics compared to Leica M.
It's best role is landscape and portrait. I dream about M autofocus only when shooting a portrait on a 50/0.95 lens)))
Hugh: I have a a Leica Q2 & a Q2 Monochrom. Both great cameras, but the monochrom really shines for B&W. I also have a Leica SL2 with various lenses, so I am waiting for an SL2 Monochrom to appear!
An SL2/3 Mono would be attractive as hell!
I chose the M10-M rather than the M11 because I wanted a B&W camera, not a color camera that I could render B&W from. I've been doing B&W rendering from color captures in digital for decades now, and I find it easier to simply work entirely in B&W using traditional tools - B&W Yellow, Red, Orange, and Green filters - which, with the M10-M's astonishing sensitivity and dynamic range at high ISO, don't limit what I'm doing. I don't make huge prints so the "measly" 40 Mpixel sensor seems enough ;) ... and the M10-M's feel and and dynamics in use suit me just fine.
The question of whether I also want an FF color camera is an open issue ... I use a Leica CL for my color work at present, as well as a Hasselblad 907x, and I could see trading off both of those for an M11 or M10-R. But I'm not ready for that move yet.
IN the end, I agree with you ... which camera you pick is really a matter of what suits your personal or professional needs best at the level of equipment capability and quality evident in the M10-M or M11. Just pick what suits you and go make photos. :)
Great arguments
Ok. I’ll pick my Panasonic gx85 and going out to shoot right now.
The other day we were in conversation with Leica M6 as an equipment to get the pleasure of having it in your hands while you shoot with it or you might be able to shoot the same pictures with a crude less expensive camera and in the discussion I mentioned about having your pictures on films and getting them finished in the dark room days is almost going to see its long and tedious journey dethroned from the grandeur of its life!! So much left unsaid in my former remarks for the future of photography which is definitely so fascinating and breathtaking to conceive of!! Nostalgia is good old days of films but the truth is the newest and ablest will make its way!! In this video if ask me to choose which one, I'll be in favour of M11 rather than monochrome M10, the only unique reason is the ease of switching from color to monochrome in a single expensive but prestigious and high precision tool and above all the pleasure of taking pictures with such an equipment that no other one is capable of summing up all these in a single tool!! I will get away with an M11 if I have to convey my message by a monochrome shot but I wouldn't if I require it for a color shot had I chosen M10 and remained handicapped until I would be able to buy another for a different purpose!! The resolution at higher ISO differs in pictures from a monochrome one, as I could apprehend is that a color film blends only three primary Colors of white light to make get the hues in monochrome transformation and actually it misses a lot of band width to grade up or down the grey scale and hence it lags in giving the same gradation of grey scale out of a monochrome films of a certain ISO level!! This is probably the reason at ISO 2500 monochrome shots differ in almost the same equipments!! But we are in a different age when mirrorless are all the rage and it's getting better every day and growing up at a huge pace!! I was just mentioning how films will ably replaced by modern sensors to give pleasant jolt to film photography!! Newest sensors would be capable of reproducing such near nature colors that we have ever seen yet!! We actually reproduced color in the final best print way different from actual color of nature it's just an adjustment that our brains make to label a picture a near perfect representation of natural color!! So we see a marked color difference from the ones those are created by different photographers of the same scene or tone!! Hence nobody even today, till this moment, is able to say the prefect color from the natural one!! In the coming days sensors would be able to liquify the whole band width available from a certain area of a picture frame which corresponds to band width of the same color missing no information in this tiny spot to liquify and blend to reflect back the truest sense of natural color and the the process will be done all over the image area to get the ultimate one color shot and this done you don't have to buy another tool to get different levels of noise in even a monochrome shot!! Focusing and other technicalities have already have a strong foot on the fray!!
Great content. Problem is the people that pixel peep at this are the ones that don’t shoot with them and just look at them in a cabinet… I recently sold my Q2M for a Q2 for the same reasons you state
"Stop watching me, go out and shoot." Yeah baby! Images are more worthwhile than the sport of competitive camera ownership. 😉
I tried the Typ 246 at the time, and I really liked it. I let time pass and a year ago, trying the M10M, I fell in love with it and decided to buy it used because it was out of production. My appreciation is not only for the quantity of pixels which is perhaps too much, but the very large dynamic range which can make me recover even a lot of the underexposed areas. I repeat: exceptional dynamic range, and wide range of grays, even if the pixels are excessive. I can't compare it to the M11 because for me there remain two parallel ways of photographing, as if I were to photograph with my M7 with a roll of B/W or color film. Taking photos in B/W with a means dedicated to doing just this and which doesn't take videos is priceless and satisfying. Luca, Bologna
Enjoy!
I have admittedly a rather eccentrically ideological view about this. For me this is an apples and pears argument, because these two cameras are not the same at all, and therefore not really comparable, in the key ways that matter to me.
For twenty years I (almost) shot nothing but black and white film. That was a completely deliberate choice, for various reasons. I saw in bnw, thought in bnw, ate, slept, dreamt in bnw. Most people did, who loaded their cameras each time with Ilford FP4 or Kodak Plus-X. Now, digital gives us the choice, and not even 36 exposures at a time. Being sceptical about such flexibility is perverse, right? Yet it troubles me. Digital photography is a colour recording medium, so to me a digital camera is the equivalent of a film camera loaded with Ektachrome. It shoots in colour, ergo you think in colour.
Later, in post, you can desaturate if you like. But that troubles me too. Every time I try it, and I don’t very often, I feel like I’ve done something underhand, inauthentic: as if I’m only doing it because my colour picture didn’t quite work out and maybe the alternative gives me a better chance with it somehow. I bang up the contrast, I blacken the sky, I crush the shadows, all so that I can make a picture a bit like the great Bill Brandt did. Even he cheated! By substituting plain skies with moody ones in the darkroom. And, in short order, I’m a very long way from the original scene I visualised, so far that I’ve not been true to it in any way at all. At least when I start with a true bnw medium, I’m considering what’s in front of me ONLY in those terms.
I know, know. It’s a controversialist position to take, emotional rather than pragmatic. But it explains why I am so admiring of Leica for making the Monochrom in the first place, unlike any other manufacturer. Their view is plain: a dedicated bnw photographer deserves a fully and unalterably black and white camera, optimised for the medium. There is no compromise, no split intention, no hedging of bets. No second chance later.
Black and white is historically axiomatic to the medium of photography and is still the purest form of photographic expression, partly because it is unique to the medium. When I really want it, I pick up a film camera again. The answer to the conundrum in this video is not batteries or usb charging or the Visoflex or any of that useful stuff. It’s whether you want to carry a colour camera, or a black-and-white one.
These days, Simon, I’m thinking it’s a digital camera or a film camera that is the real choice. 😊🖖🏻
Awesome depth of feel about B&W Photography.
High Hugh. This time the first!
Greetings from Frankfurt - Andreas
Very nice on point summary Hugh. The only people who would argue for an M10 monochrome are those who haven't used an M11. As for high ISO - yeah ...nahhhh. Who really cares about 12500+ ISO nuffery....such a narrow user case 'reason'...to buy a camera. Interesting you have opted for the Voigtlander 50 apo - amazing value for money lens - show me the difference between and the Leica 50 APO - at what ...8X the price difference? Again - yeahhh naaah...cheers Pete
I just bit the bullet and have started the process of swapping my M10M & Sl2s for an M11. The whole using filters drove me nuts. And I much prefer my own colour to monochrome mixes. I thought the SL2s was going to be the perfect answer but it’s huge. Do I really need high iso?
The other reason for the change is USB charging… electronic high speed shutter, and electronic metering. I know I will be setting mine to spot (if it has that) as soon as it arrives…. Thanks again Hue
I hear you. Enjoy!
"Stop watching me. Go out to shoot."😂
Go out and shoot? Well jokes on you Hugh. Just to spite you I'm going to re-watch the budget gourmet Leica series now to think on whether I really need an upgrade from my M Typ 246.
PS: Speaking of the M ecosystem, I'd really love to hear your thoughts on the new Pixii rangefinder
Love when I look something up and a familiar face has the answer.
Saw your vid on your M11 purchase, Benj - congrats and enjoy!!👍🏻💯
love mono
Respect🤗
More reason to wait for the M11M?
It's interesting that the M11 shows a higher resolution. Yes, the M11 has more pixels but the M10M has no Bayer filter. So I expected the resolution to be more equal.
@3BMEP - Is the Leica M-monochrom (Type 246) still a viable option in 2024? I realize that I can get Hasselblad X1D II for around the same price but I kind of have my heart set on stepping into the Leica world.
Finally someone else who wants to set ISO to a main dial. Do you know of any other non-Leica cameras that allow this (set the front or back dial to ISO without having to first press another button)? I'm not sure why this is a rare feature, but as a new photographer I was surprised when I couldn't do it on my Z6, and some googling tells me you can't do it on most cameras (except arguably Fuji, and even then that's not exactly what I want. Ideally I could set the thumb or pointer finger dial).
You had me curious, I decided to see if I could set that up on p mode and yes you can have full iso control with the dial wheel on my Olympus and panasonic cameras. Also on my x100v but for some reason much more complicated to set it up.
Pentax SLRs tend to have the option, mostly. They tend to have three control dials--traditional thumb rear and pointer front dials, but also a 3rd custom dial on the top. On a KP or K1, the function of this dial is set by a separate function dial, and the K3 III has a button to toggle with the top LCD. The function could be ISO, exposure compensation, program line, jpeg presets (swap easily between color and BW), drive mode, HDR settings, and nearly anything. It's really easy to just leave it as an ISO dial, and have Shutter, Aperture, and ISO all as dials at the same time.
Which fast 64gb sd card do you recommend with Leica M10 monochrom?
Thanks for this Hugh. Some - I've no experience so no opinion - is that the M10 monochrome has better tonality (micro contrast) and this is why a dedicated monochrome sensor is best. Beats me if any of this really matters.
Apples to apples, same base sensor to same base sensor, that's true, but that's where it gets tricky as the higher resolving power of the M11 seems to give you better overall detail and range of tones which might negate the slightly higher dynamic range (at ISO 800 it's a little over half a stop) and the non bayered sensor.
@@patrickjclarke Thanks. There are videos and websites showing what is claimed to be a superior image from the monochrome sensor. From what I've seen, sometimes there is a difference - but other times it isn't so apparent. The differences, if there are any really, are only visible when two identical images are compared. Without the comparison you'd never be able to tell if the image was converted or came from the dedicated monochrome camera. It's all what you are accustomed to.
I agree with you about the M11 and the 50mm Voigtlander APO. It is the combination I reach for most out of my bag. When I want to shoot B&W, I also go for the Q2 monochrome. I am carrying both in my Billingham Bag. Perhaps I should consider converting the M11 files to B&W., but I love shooting the Q2M. First-world problem, should I carry the weight of the Q2? Egads, I should just thank my lucky stars.
For half the price of a M11M, I bought a mint M10M.
Frankly speaking, the evolutions on the M11 are welcome. But for me, the M10M is the cake and the M11's "plus" are the icing on the cake : I don't see why I'll pay around 5000€ for the icing.
However, to each his own.
Enjoy!!
I wonder, and I know it's more futzing, but if you ran DxO DeepPrime on the M11 files, would you get much closer ISO to ISO in noise as it climbs? Now, of course you could do the same on the M10M file, but if the M11 with DeepPrime could match stock M10M noise, then the superior detail retention of the M11 would always give you an advantage...and I dare say that if you used Cobalt Images CMOS or CCD Monochrom plug-in you'd probably get superior tonality out of the M11. I have an M240 and shoot 98% BW and using DeepPrime AND Cobalts CCD Monochrom, I am getting files that are shockingly good, and better than the M9M and tonally on par or better than the M10M in my opinion.
I’d like to see what you’re seeing, Patrick!
Was your M11 replaced or repaired?? I am like Garydmorris happy with M10R so far
Replaced; no problems since! 😊
I suppose you could summarise the answer with one concept: budget. If you can afford the M11, get it, because it's better. Otherwise, the M10M will do you very nicely.
Or you could wait for the M11 Monochrom.
The only two things why i keep using the m11 over my m10-r black paint was its usb c and battery… have your m11 come back alive?
Got a replacement. Looking forward to using it next week in NYC!
Thanks for this one but … M11 vs X2D please! 😂
Love it when you use the word Schlepp 😂
So do I 🙂
Always great to see you started to worry its been like 2 week lmao
😜
Hey, where do you get those prints made?
Which ones?
You were standing next to a very large black and white print. Gorgeous.
@@gchristopherklug Printique (an Adorama company!).
Did you get your M11 back from repair yet Hugh?
Yep! Love it; no issues!
If Leica made a monochrome version of the D-Lux 7 (ok, if Panasonic made one), I'd buy one of those. That'd be fun, at a fun-sized-price. Seems too niche otherwise.
Nice comparison. However, many Leica reviewers do not address the poor longevity of Leica upgrades. Between January 2017 and January 2022 (just 5 years), Leica released 5 new M cameras (M10, M10P, M10Mono, M10R and M11), each one touting superiority over the previous version. Reviewers should comment on the very, very poor lifespan of each M upgrade when suggesting that the upgrade is justified by image improvement.
Another good video - thanks. I have to say though, I for one find something appealing in futzing around with the baseplate on my M. I'm a little sad that Leica seems to be moving away from it. It's a legacy design implement that is part (albeit a very small part) of what made an M, an M.
I understand.
I have the M11, and wouldn’t want a non-functioning baseplate on the camera. For that matter, I wouldn’t want one on any non-film camera.
I still think someone should do a test on how long it takes someone to pop off the baseplate to get the SD card out of the M10 and double-pumping the M11 battery out for the same...my guess it's not significant...oh, and since I shoot an M240 with classic metering only, when do i need to take the battery out anyway? ;)
@@johnkasianowicz6536 Yes, logically, what you say makes sense - it's logical. :) I had the baseplate on my M6 where it was needed (of course), and my Type 240 (where it isn't needed... but I still love it being there). I'll trade in the 240 for an M10P or maybe even an M10R around Xmas time. I'm very happy that both models have the baseplate. Totally not required... but it somehow feels right to be there. It's like an upside-down lid that makes the camera body feel complete. Solid. Ready for action. Congrats on the M11, by the way. It's a beauty (even if it's missing the 'bottom lid'). :)
To go out an shoot and watching you, defeats the object of creating content to watch in the first place...I´m puzzled.
M11 or M10R though. That’s the question.
Hugh…can you redo this video when the inevitable M11M monochrome comes out?
;)
CC
😜
Excellent answer to a gnawing question. Thanks for mind reading!😂
Now an m11 monochrom……😍
You’re not the only one asking for an M11-M!
for me M10M, or the M10R
Fair enough! 😊🖖🏻
pixel peep pissing contests are becoming so banal at modern sensor size / megapixel levels
sharpness and detail rarely make the best image
dynamic range certainly is the most compelling justification
Monochrome is really niche. Only if you need a monochrome sensors. Otherwise just edit the color RAWs. Are you taking pictures in the middle of the night in a cave? So maybe better get the regular M. Who shoots ISO25000?
No! I wanna argue with you in the comment section! ;-)
Well Hugh, you are cherry picking using the M11's limited and artifact littered electronic shutter. Try that resolution test again with the M11 using its mechanical shutter...I dare you.
I disagree. You’re confusing contrast with outright resolution, and most of what I’m assuming you’re claiming as high resolution is contrast arising from large digital artefacts or what we once would have referred to as grain, which is not available in the monochrome, because it has no digital artefacts because it has no photo sites, as it only records the luminance values.
$9,000 HARD PASS
I understand.