China's 7nm Chips: SMIC N+2
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- Опубликовано: 21 авг 2024
- In this brief video, I want to say a few thoughts about SMIC's N+2 node - the 7 nanometer leap forward.
Links:
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"Don't be sorry. Just be better."
That is some cold hard truths.
Or as gamers say: "Git Gud".
BOI
your profile pic takes me back
@@ivanwong7456 get sweaty
Yeah go around the streets with this snarky attitude. You wont make it more than a few minutes.
As a skeptic of the bubble tea industry, I'm very keen to hear your breakdown and learn more about it.
I too look forward to a bubble tea expose
More like Bubble explode at this point, China, again.
@@kevind843 What is 'bubble tea'?
@@gregparrott a tea which has ice bubblea
I thought it was Boba Tea. It has boba (tapioca pearls) in it .. I guess the are kinda like bubbles.
Your information about the Chinese 7nm chip is very accurate. Now Huawei released the Mate 60 Pro.
That's assuming the kirin 9000s is made by SMIC
@@The_Balloit is confirmed
This is a point last year, however, today when we look at SMICs annual P&L, there is no sign of any income on this area.
Look at how HuaWei protect the chip source, it must be a new source unexposed.
Now they have new chips of 5 and 3nm in mass production for handphone, CPU, GPU and HuaWei AI chips, this new chip source is likely developed a new solution.
@@liwenhu5864they did the 9010 and SMIC Will put a 5 nm chip on the market with SAQP ay the end of 2024 with plans for a 3 nm node.
This entire week I was waiting for this! Thanks for the work
Same!! Exited for the video
Where do you get your news about this kind of topics
@@spritsnovalbertos8409 Teaching Chinese kids to h*te America and Japan, the so-called "Foreign Dev*ls" .
ruclips.net/video/ivB-GR_5bsU/видео.html
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CCP is an immature government that teaches its Young generation hatred towards foreigners. This is State-sanctioned hate not by individuals.
ruclips.net/video/27apFXwoNQE/видео.html
.
CCP teaching children to hate foreigners especially westerners.
By Dee Chen from China
ruclips.net/video/h1sIAgMU6bw/видео.html
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It doesn't need to take a few years. Seems like you underestimated the resilience, determination and perseverance of the people of China. It's in the blood. You should have knew it better as an ethnic Chinese.
can't be surprise, as an ethnic chinese he's never ceased to impress me when it comes to china, these people thing by being so blatantly biased toward china they'll be consider American, you can see the same pattern with some Russians living in the west.
Extremely underrated channel, I've learnt more about semiconductor from the channel than any other sources
Wait until you hear about his newsletter… 😳
The level of detail, dept and variations in his subject matter is what gets me.
@@alexanderphilip1809 Only a little bit more then you can pick up in generic financial newspaper. :/
@@alexanderphilip1809 me too. This guy seems genuine.
I work for Intel and love these videos. They're super well researched, the information is presented in a very well organized manner, and his presentation is great. His timing is also on point.
It's difficult to talk about China, Taiwan, and US all in one video without devolving into a shitshow these days, yet you manage to do it regularly. Love your content ❤
bcz ppl are hateful and stupid. I love china and my chinese pen pals. MSM is full of manipulation.
nationalism is really stupid. It's just bad for us as a civilization.
Taiwan *is* China.
It drives me crazy the amount of sensationalism. People saying that the US or China are going to implode and collapse any day now; which theyve been predicting for China since they really started becoming capitalist and opened up in the 90s which they thought would kill the CCP, and they've been predicting about the US since the 2007/2008 collapse and especially since Trump took office in 2016 and later Biden in 2020. So theyve been about a week from collapse for around 15-30 years
It is a shame we can't all get along. Hate geopolitics.
YT also loves to demonitized videos when it comes to talking about China (and of course Taiwan). Even if the video isn't pure bias and touches lightly on facts.
I do think many countries need to get their behinds in gear though to be self sufficient. Globalization is a blessing but also can be a curse. Look at Russia who we come to realize can't make many parts for their weapons and source components from specialized western companies with shell companies and such. The amount of western tech found in the Ukraine is quite outstanding from what I'm told.
You are not just a guy with a youtube channel. I am constantly amazed the information you provide is free. And you can explain stuff so even I can understand this complicated industry.
@Hans Krieger you are right
This channel is fair, politically neutral, precise, highly technical yet easy to follow and understand. Great Job. Looking forward for more to come. Subscribed.
very far from being politically neutral
Politically neutral, no: Arguably being pro Western is not neutral. Objective though I'd say the channel is, the channel does actually give China it's due
haha
@@monkev1199 for a Taiwanese guy... is almost PRO China.
I remember back 6 years ago same taiwanese media said that China is 30 years behind, in semiconductor manufacturing , they will never catch up to Taiwan's 14nm tech. Few years later China start mass producing 14nm chips. I even remember YOU (Asianometry) said China is too far behind to catch up. Now they are doing 7nm. What is even funnier is back 15 years ago when Taiwan's HTC was reigning supreme before Apple's iPhone and even Nokia, everyone thought China will never be able to produce smart phone. Look where we are now. i will predict in the next decade they will not only catch up but surpass everyone in semiconductor technologies and have complete dominance of the market except for the few survivors of the shuffle.
As a Chinese, it is also unbelievable for me to see the progress of technology. When I was an undergraduate at university in 2009, we students feel humiliated about chinese made copycat mobile phones. At that time, the market is dominated by nokia, samsung. Then 10 years later, we can make good mobile phones like huawei, xiaomi, oppo.
I think the reason is simple. I am just above 30 years old. For my generation, 70% students prefer science and technology in university. In senior high school, best students prefer science and technology. Meanwhile, the most smart student in us becomes lawyer, reporters, working for Wall Street. That's is why we can catch up so quickly.
They love stealing technology.... it’s more than likely faulty like more of their ”cutting edge" technology. Their military technology is a great example of both :)
@@blank1778 haha, 5G, hypersonic missile.who give the courage to say so.
World does not stand still.
since when Zhina has been mass-producing 14nm chips? I haven't come across with any news except Zhinese propaganda to support this claim. Not even SMIC's financial reports support this claim.
Anyways you can always dream on, just like how Zhina keeps blabbing on homegrown jet engines for decades
Been waiting for your take on the mate 60 with kirin9000s😊
this guy is ahead of his time
I discovered your channel a while ago and I have to say this is one of the better info-tainment channels I subscribe to. Really fascinating insights into something that is increasingly becoming crucial to how we live our lives. Keep up the good work!
Regarding that statement in the beginning: That is one of the bigger reasons I like this channel so much. You seem to be able to paint a realistic picture of these industries without showing preference (besides topic selection). Something modern media is unfortunately severely lacking. Not that you're a news channel:), but I think you get what I'm saying.
Yield is the key. You can have 1 nm nodes but if you spend a year just to get one such chip produced, it means nothing. We'll see.
underrated comment.
I guess you could call it an elite hobby
TSMC came up with their 7 nm node back in 2017 while EUV only became available in 2021. So, TSMC's 7 nm too was based on DUV. If they had no issue with yield, then there's no technical reason why SMIC will have a yield issue. At best, it might take SMIC a few years for them to catch up. Or, maybe they are already there, let's see.
@@aniksamiurrahman6365 Every company faces its own set of technical challenges, your analogy overlooks this aspect of technical know-how within a firm. Samsung and Intel both have plenty of EUV machines for a number of years now, yet both are behind on yield and struggle on the cutting edge.
@@aniksamiurrahman6365 What are you on about? EUV has been available to TSMC for much longer than 2021. Their first high-volume manufacturing using EUV was announced in 2019, and even before then they could produce chips using EUV though yield might not have been sufficient for a HVM environment.
Great to watch a rare, well-made, balanced show in these times!
SMIC doesn't operate in an open market. You rightfully mentioned Huawei's HiSilicon division which cannot use TSMC anymore to fab their Kirin CPUs. I'd say they'd happily take whatever SMIC has to offer here. N7 equivalent is not too shabby! Russian clients cannot use TSMC anymore either. So there will surely be a plenty of demand.
How big is Russia market?
@@zzip0 I dunno. But some chips have definitely been fabbed at TSMC. For example, Baikal and Elbrus.
If its going to be cheaper than TSMC, etc. then itll get customers eventually.
@@zzip0
Russian is just a icing on the cake, the Chinese market consume about 60% of the worldwide market, imagine losing the 60% sales.
@@gamerdudegamerdude4961 Nah, they don't have to, my point is that they don't compete with TSMC for many and probably enough customers really.
Prophetic video, near to omnipotence. +1000!!!
Probably the best channel about electronics and semiconductor manufacturing. I learned so much, it helps me so much because I study electronics engineering. Thanks for your content, keep going.
I’m really grateful for your objective approach to these topics. Very hard to find on the internet and in media
1/3 Yay! You have a "Thanks!" button... I've been trying to fling you a tip for ages, Paypal didn't work. Now if only I could enter the amount... I'll have to do several "drops"... Keep up the excellent work and appreciate your civility.
I've just realised, one day, in the year 2100, some random Chinese kid will laugh about TSMCs 2nm tech, thinking about how ancient it is.
bro, i want VR porn by the time i'm 80. if i cant do it when im old, ill just do it in the virtual world
A year afterward, your prediction is precise that the Kirkin 9000 shipped with Mate 60 Pro is based on SMIC N+2.
yes, just that looks like they did it a lot earlier than he expected.
Nice informative job. You walked through that entire subject field, full of landmines, and I never heard a single 'Click'. Damn fine footwork.
Here because of the Kirin 9000😮
Clean, straightforward and neutral as always. Thank you!
@Asianometry we got an n+2 kirin 9000s
And one year later, it's in the next Huawei phone.
This is 1 year ago. Now 7nm is normal or commercial grade tech in China. Now smic looking into 3nm. USA company only can done up to 28nm. After that no more.
A good amount of SMIC engineers and researchers are from TSMC(already explained in the video). That's why I think n+1 is similar to TSMC n7.
Wouldn't surprise anyone if the US only allow TSMC to install future EUV machines in its plants in the US and only allow Americans to operate them. The US wants the latest node and only it can have the latest node
It's not just similar, it's almost a carbon copy. This just reaffirms exactly what TSMC claimed years ago. SMIC and many other Chinese foundries (most of which failed) stole IP from TSMC.
Taiwan is a risk. leaking tech to china. western companies should more invest in Korea.
@@wakannnai1 whenever China does something successful, y'all just say that it's a copy immediately. Just like how the US accuse China of IP Thief on 5G tech until it's getting less and less reliable
@@wakannnai1 can't call it stealing if the n+1 technology is from former tsmc engineers/researchers.
And I would wait for additional information before calling it a carbon copy. We only know it's a close copy to TSMC 7nm process technology, according to a single quote from techinsights: "initial images suggest it is a close copy of TSMC 7nm process technology".
Is it still a close copy after looking it deeper? Did it violates TSMC intellectual properties? They probably discussed it in the report, but since it's not accessible to us. We simply don't know.
Is almost time for a follow up!
Well, well, well, it's here the 7nm chip from China. For those who said "can't be done" , please, standup.
they have been kneed down to the japs and uncle sams since forever
Dunno why media is so shocked now when it was already known more than a year ago… or maybe they shocked over5g
@@SujeetRaj711 the shocking part is not that china can do it, it's that they could commercialize it and make good lithography machines with high yield.
I cannot wait for SMEE to crush ASML within a decade
time is on china's side
@@evanh9301 Is it?
@@evanh9301 If China is spending 50$ billion a year on chip research. more like money is on China's side.
China should just buy out ASML employees Or who ever is needed to make an ASML EUV chip printing machine.
I doubt anyone can resist 1$ billion. 99% of ASML employees are probably paid less than a million per year.
@@The_Ballo
Man I like your style of videos. You are not biased, give fair opinion about fact, all the while providing good information. Good work.
What’s interesting as an American observer is the rationale for the export bans. While the bans are ostensibly done on national security grounds, China / SMIC arguably has ‘good enough’ technology today to meet their defense & national security needs for a decade or more. This is in stark contrast to Russia which you’ve previously covered. The only area where the sanctions will hurt (for intelligence / defense purposes) is data center chips, but the impact is primarily going to be slower, hotter, and less power efficient chips than the west uses. What it’s not going to do is prevent China from achieving any of their computational objectives - it’ll just take longer and/or require more chips. For other uses - guidance systems for missiles, chips for their fighter jets, their aerospace program, etc - the 7nm chips they’re producing with multi patterning are more than capable of serving their needs for decade(s) to come.
The real damage will be in consumer products manufactured by SMIC for their domestic market, but that obviously does nothing for national security for either China or the west.
China will export to Russia without reservation.
Great analysis. US foreign policy often time is just political sabre rattling.
Your analysis suggests a sobering strategy for China vs Taiwan: just destroy Taiwan, not try to save the fab business. Break many western products while continuing to offer Chinese alternatives.
The bad news is that as long as there is a demand and people are willing to pay for it, the SMIC will continue to develop chips that will actually match or exceed western Chips and their domestic market is huge.
The export ban is extremely important. Otherwise the Chinese will steal it. It had happen so many time before. Just look at high speed railway, Japanese help China to build it, And now CCP claimed it is as their own invention and outbid Japan in the foreign train project. They are even lazy enough to change the shape of the engine car.
Also, why help the enemy that you will go to war in future?
Thank you once more for the insightful analysis. Can you please talk about Chinese "homegrown" EUV lithography machines or the pursuit in of it? There have been some interesting IP legal battles between ASML and XTAL. And how far is SMEE from developing EUV lithography machines?
And does it even matter at this point? Have we not reached the end of optical lithography?
@@PalCan china doesn't have those yet
@@didyoumissedmegobareatersk2204 yeah I know but they're pursuing it that's why I ask
What did you mean when you asked "have we not reached the end of EUV" when you know China doesn't even have it yet and is pursuing it and it's cutting edge tech only one company can make?
he can't comment on things he doesn't know. SMEE shipped&deployed its first 28nm DUV ("wet", so called 193i tech) machine in 2021, there were a photo circulating on chinese internet that SMEE's senior management made that claim in a not very public (internal?) conference spring 2022, and it is some-what widely known in China SMEE's next major task is to scale up its production. This SMEE DUV machine is capable of , at least in theory, making n7 chips, but there are rumors saying it isn't as reliable as ASML counterparts... yet.
Just a note to say they don't need to be economically competitive when
1. Processors are a matter of national security
2. Because of that, the Chinese government accept that some things in life just have to be paid for from central funds and so will subsidise it to the hilt.
3. They have around a 3.5 trillion surplus with which to do so.
They just need to be good enough for now, better than, comes later.
they dont have to subsidise anything. the chinese companies have no choice but to buy chinese chips, and any older nodes the us wants to sell(thus hoping to prevent china from developing while keeping all of china's market share), china can just add tariffs to those chips and make them uncompetitive with what china produces plus any Chinese tech companies can see the million bans on successful Chinese companies for doing nothing but being Chinese and successful and will naturally buy Chinese chips where possible, otherwise they are dumb and deserve to be sanctioned to death and smarter Chinese companies will take their market share. And soon, with immense opportunity to be had and plenty of funds around china, companies like SMIC will become competitive with the best nodes out there, since physics works the same in us as in china and china has the stem talent, it only a matter of time. and as soon as china is competitive the us and co can say goodbye all markets outside of their own countries.
Meanwhile Bloomberg was saying China could only produce 14nm 7 months ago. And then there is this guy.
well Huawei just release a china made 7nm kirin 9000 chip
After china can made this chip into international market,all Device like Smartphone and Even PC Parts would be cheap as Potato Chips
I really wanted this to happen, it benefits all consumers in the world!
I am reading US CHIP act and trying very hard to find POTATO, LOL.
@Yarxk How about RTX A6000., that 48 GB mem, I want it so badly but too costly now.
Glad to see Liang get some attention here, he does not even have a English wiki page. However, US already put a gun to TSMC's head to build Arizona
It doesn't matter if China chips are not performing as good as other company chips. If China can make the chip at a fraction of the other company cost, then China will win in the end.
In semiconductor foundry, china doesnt have as much of a cheap labor advantage as equipment productivty and yield are thr major drivers of costs, especially at the leading edge
It doesn't have to be as cheap neither. To China it's the difference between zero and one, live and death. The Chinese government and public institutions are willing to pay more for less as long as the chips are homegrown.
@@sumonechan8514 that should be respectful. In USA, the feds and media are against Elon Musk and his companies. And there are no 5 year plans or anything being transparent to the people of what the government is executing. To believe that transgender pronouns took 2 years to formulate and institutionalize, it really makes me think where is the plans for better infrastructure or logistics, highspeed rails to supplement online businesses and the future. Or even healthcare system/insurance company inefficiencies, etc. But.... Transgender pronouns took a huge slot in government effort
@@doctorwilly what about supply chain and economy of scale?
@@mbian0same762 not sure if i understand the question. Could u clarify
China is determined, they are patient, and they have long plan. Even this node is only for domestic they see it as a step forward. Reg extreme UV they are certainly working furiously behind the scenes to make their own - their goal is domestic mastery.
Note internal market is huge, so plenty of volume to practice
China needs a Stalin style 5 year plan, More involvement of SOE's and more ruthless draconian targets. A war with the U.S is coming thus it is urgent that China catches up and surpasses them within a short period.
12:57 Japan's fall in semiconductors were due to the tech spies (Information Specialists) of USA's pentagon. I learned this from the documentaries on RUclips. Correct me if I'm wrong.
This channel has information about Japan's rise and fall in semiconductors that doesn't align with what you're claiming.
Extraordinary claims require proof, other wise you're just spouting anti american conspiracy nonsense
@@Bearded.Jim1989 i did write it a few times, but the censorship is heavy, removing my comment.
Take a look at "Special Duty
A History of the Japanese Intelligence Community", written by Richard J Samuels, Professor and Director of the Center for International Studies at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
Another article here:
Japan's electronics empire draws spies from East and West
December 21, 1982, By Geoffrey Murray.
Which also iterates over the Nixon administration has put Japan under the rug and looked towards China with positive propaganda in the 1980's. And it also states that Japan did not have anti-espionage laws early on to protect their side.
@@superheaton RUclips is heavy with censorship that is true.
Japan's electronics isn't as good as the west. They mainly improve/tweak western technologies ie. lowering production costs.
Japan used to be in China's position as a low cost producer up until they themselves become a developed country. Japan's economy has since stagnated in 1995 and continues to this today.
China, like Japan won't be able to surpass the west, mainly America, due to their inablity to innovate such as creating their own sophisticated technologies and their demographics are more older on average than America and a couple other countries.
Most countries, Japan and China included, are facing an aging and declining populatuon. Which in turn wil lead to slower economic growth.
@@Bearded.Jim1989 i agree with your points. But, the espionage today is still happening. A lot of secretive undiscussed missions happening in each relevant country, Russia, Canada, China, USA, UK, S. Korea, N. Korea, Japan, etc., hard to do a complete list. They are spying on each other.
Just beyond espionage, I was wondering would it be and could it not be possible, if everything is open source, just like medicine on PubMed, or Nature magazine. As in no secrets. This may not happen, but it seems extremely wasteful to have all these CIA high paying positions for information specialists etc to carry out missions in order to find new tech secrets when we all possess the abilities to solve problems. It is like a student out on a mission to copy someone's homework or finding the solutions manual for their textbook questions.
Not only do china have 5nm chips, they are mass producing 28nm lithography machine. Currently testing their 5nm lithography machine and once verified it will go into mass production.
creating litography machine more difficult than chip
"Starts evaporative heater for mining salt"
Seriously tho, i love your videos, gives me an idea of whats going on in tech without having to do all the research 🙂 thanks!
You know i was thinking of doing evaporative watercooling for my computer back in the day, so Pentium 4 era. I figured i would end up spending less than half a litre of water a day to run it.
But i didn't want the loop to get salty, so i didn't do it.
@@SianaGearz 😆😆😆😆😆😆
@@SianaGearz like placing a small intercooler in the setup?
Can you talk about the Huawei Mate 60 situation, it;s Kirin 9000s chips could be used SMIC N+2
2/3 Yay! You have a "Thanks!" button... I've been trying to fling you a tip for ages, Paypal didn't work. Now if only I could enter the amount... I'll have to do several "drops"... Keep up the excellent work and appreciate your civility.
Way ahead of the curve over here. Thank you Asianometry
Huawei is now releasing a phone at 7nm
A ban is not expected to completely block something, just decrease volume, delay and make it a headache.
yep... so many Huawei telecom systems in US... good thing is not completely blocked.
What an amazing prediction just one year ago, without any announcement, disclosure, advertisement, the mate 60 Pro quietly start selling on Huawei's website 28/08/2023, and it sold out in less then 5 mins. The mobile soon get pulled apart, videoed and analysed around the globe, then the details of the CPU came out as N+2 7nm chip. The new era started.
I really like this phrase: Everyone can be creative when challengues are faced.
I'm not sure how well will be China at the end of the decade but if USA fails in its bans. A lot of high profile industries in Europe and East Asia will become less competitive against Chinese companies because of the exclusion in their techonological development.
This entire video is incredibly misleading. SMIC's 7nm process has been proven to be a pirated version of TSMC's 7nm process. Despite this, it's very unlikely this node is anywhere close to usable as yields would be garbage on this node due to the lack of EUV equipment. SMIC does not have any EUV machinery nor will they ever be able to obtain it since they need to get it from the US. With Sino-US relations at a historic low, this becomes impossible. There's no path forward despite the fanfare of the announcement.
@@wakannnai1 Tsmc 7nm yield using duv still acceptable, 5nm is the part where it has yield problem... smic, 7nm by theory also has no problem with it... not when it reached 5nm.
@@wakannnai1 ... Pirated version ha ha... Every major technology China employs only exists through theft and espionage... The world has been so tolerant of this, consumers generally don't even care. This needs to change.
@@wakannnai1 before this, they said the best China can produce is 14nm. I'm betting they will pull a surprise as they've done so in spite of the 'experts' opinions.
@@wakannnai1 This channel is anything but a fanfare China news outlet; but then again you seem to be new here. Just like your life, there's no path forward! :)
8:28 it’s his resignation letter, but more like his way of saying: “acknowledge my greatness” lol
He basically said he didn’t join the company for money, but to help with his achievement. Now he is resigning because after 3 years he had helped the company advance 5 generations of chip making, a process that would’ve taken other companies 10 years.
After boasting about it, he was like: “I’ve accomplished all conceivable goals, peace out.”
What a Chad 😂
He did something great, yet I read that he also brought a quite toxic culture to SMIC to the point where his projects and his people must be given absolute priority regardless of economic feasibility at the expense of more mature but also "profitable" processes. Anyway, it can also be very political.
@@GoogleUser-ee8ro well, he has a very difficult personality and demands absolute respect even from higher ups.
Just because you have an unpleasant nature and dislike people, this is no obstacle to work.
@@thomaszhang3101 just imagine how much further he could go if he were more pleasant to work with. having co-workers that actually WANTS to work with you/talk ideas out is a lot more valuable that one would think.
@@jolp9799 one thing is for sure, most people with his temper never made it where he is today and probably for good reasons. He is definitely an odd ball
I have been waiting for this ever since I heard that seven nm was achieved in China!
More than 20 years ago, Westerners ridiculed the Chinese for not making mobile phones. Today, Chinese-made smartphones are all over the world. Fifteen years ago, the Japanese believed that Japan's high-speed rail was unmatched, and now China's high-speed rail has surpassed any country in the world. Twenty years ago, the US GPS ruled the world. Today, US military pilots use Beidou satellite navigation as a backup navigation system on their fighters. Back then, the US blocked China from participating in the ISS project through the Wolfe Clause, but today Chinese astronauts on their own Tiangong space station will soon witness the disappearance of the ISS from space.
The same is true of today's high-end chips. In ten years, China will make Qualcomm and other brands a historical term in people's memory.
the greed of the west ruined them and empowered china into a super power LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
The mining rig where the chips came from was manufactured in June or July 2021 and TechInsights only recently got hold of one and realized the breakthrough. The mining chip isn't as sophisticated as SoC and x86 processors but its also a year old so hard to judge SMIC's capability now.
Because of US' love of sanctions, a lot of China's latest tech achievement are not announced and there is a growing gap in what US thinks China can do and what China actually can do.
Jon and a bunch of people in the comment think this is stolen TSMC tech (the Chinese can only steal syndrome) and China have to follow ASML and TSMC's path of development to N5, N3.... That view failed to take into account:
1. China know EUV is possible so less travel down the wrong path
2. EUV is the current standard because of technological limitation in the 90s' and 2000s' (ASML shipped first prototype in 2010). With 2020s' tech, aspects and steps of current EUV machines can be simplified/skipped
3. China know High NA EUV is coming and efforts are on both EUV and High NA EUV. Like going from no phone to mobile phone, it doesn't have to wait years before starting researching the next tech
4. No other country have a combination of leading lithography industry, leading foundry, and chip designers and these people talks to each other.
The last time this combo appeared was 70 and 80s' Japan. Korea and Taiwan have leading foundry but cannot build lithography machines nor design chips. Netherlands/Germany/EU have the best lithography industry but way behind in foundry and design. The US have best designers and leading foundry but lithography is foreign IP. Talks between the entities would involves foreign trade secret laws
i find it hilarious that smic has publicized it was preparing n+2 for mass production and been shipping n+1 in the beginning of 2021 like feb or mar and talking how they had to overcome never receiving the euv machine they bough 3 years earlier, but ppl are finding just now it was no BS...
they got smarter and this time are saying their new fabs are 28nm and mature processes only (they have 4 i think under construction), now US is bullying the dutch again to block even the possibility of 14nm on the new fabs and asml is complaining again (i remember reading they complained the first time too, but their government pushed the ban).
I think the first chinese EUV could come out around 2030, Tsinghua University already has an ongoing project to make a newer SSMB EUV (higher power than ASML's LPP EUV). They've promised to bring out a prototype model by 2025-26. Then give or take a few more years for commercialization.
You're confusing China with Taiwan. China has the capacity to build simpler chips (i.e. NAND memory) but will never catch up to foreign CPU designs.
@@user136002 That's stupid, Huawei's HiSilicon Kirin processors were competing with the most advanced Qualcomm and Apple processors before Trump's sanctions. Intel itself has said it expects serious competitors to arise from China in the field of PC processors.
@@xBlackWind Kirin is a barely modified version of the base ARM design and is effectively dead. It was never competitive against apple. Intel says a lot of stupid things.
7nm is still WAY better than what most ICs use. If 7nm gets so ubiquitious it could trickle down into older ICs getting remade into smaller nodes meaning smaller packages and more power efficiency (except some products that actually get worse at smaller nodes) in everyday devices such as standard transisitor devices like Gates or such
No chance, DUV N7 is financially unviable.
Eventually EUV N7 will trickle down when it becomes affordable, as the capacity gets installed.
@@MostlyPennyCat I meant more like intel style 7nm or intel7 as its called or 10nm+++ as intel called it even tho transistor count is basically the same to most other 7nm nodes
@@AlpineTheHusky
Sorry, I've got a bit lost, I'm not sure what we're talking about.
Looking at the wiki page: 7_nm_process
At the chapter:
*7 nm process nodes and process offerings*
Could you tell which 2 processes we're talking about?
One is, obviously, SMIC N+2 (7 nm) with transistor density of 'Unknown' but lonely at least >= 89 MTr/mm² and multipatterning under DUV.
_Personally I think this is globally financially invisible, it'll never be cheap enough compared to monopatterning EUV_
So I guess there's multipatterning on all 7nm nodes?!? Maybe SMIC N+2 isn't in as much trouble as I thought!
But looking at the 5nm wiki roadmap the multipatterning is this SALELE (Self Aligned Litho Etch Litho Etch) which describes itself as more automated (cheaper and faster maybe?)
I just don't know, but it's EUV, SMIC can't do it and I think the following processes will outsell (cheaper) and outperform SMIC:
Samsung 5LPE
Samsung 5LPP
TSMC N5
TSMC N5P
Samsung 4LPE
Samsung 4LPP
Samsung 4LPP+
Samsung 4HPC
Samsung 4LPA
TSMC N4
TSMC N4P
TSMC N4X
TSMC 4N
Intel 4
7, 5, 3 and 2 nm process pages exist on Wikipedia.
After that, on the beyond 2 nm process chapter, it speculates about a British team that has carved solid transistors out of doped monoatomic graphene but that's it.
They expect the 2nm processes to be in volume production at the end of 2025, just 2 years away and then we're back to science experiments! 😂😉
Gonna be exciting stuff, this is China's chance to really shine, if they can come up with a viable home grown solution.
They have the creativity I think, _somewhere._
But do they have the cooperation skills to leverage it?
Many people are not aware that China has made huge breakthroughs in a number of semiconductor fields that do not require very advanced processes and can already compete with the most advanced manufacturers in the market. Examples include memory, SSDs, and LCD and OLED screens.
Everyone is aware of that. That’s why it was important to try and stop or at least slow down their ability to manufacture these most advanced semiconductors, the last remaining global industry that china doesn’t completely dominate. It doesn’t really matter if it worked or not, it had to be done, china recognized very early on that they need this tech and would beg, borrow and steal to get it. The US recognized that they should try and prevent that from happening. It’s as simple as that.
@@HNedel No, China has a very long history of developing and manufacturing chips, even earlier than Japan, but at that time, chip manufacturing was non-market and dominated by research institutes, and he could not market and industrialize. At the same time this is also the status of China's chip industry in these decades, China currently dominates the low-end semiconductor industry, but the high-end semiconductor industry is dominated by the Western industry chain. Why is this? Because of the market economy. Full competition of commodities in the market economy will lead to winner-takes-all, the lagging party can not get enough profit to maintain long-term investment in research and development will lead to backwardness, and the semiconductor also relies heavily on the construction of software and hardware ecology. But if the U.S. uses an executive order to forcibly ban China's semiconductor industry will lead to a large number of funds originally used to purchase imported chips forced to flow into the original downturn in the chip industry, the huge demand will give rise to companies with strong competitiveness. China is the world's largest chip market, their domestic demand is very large, enough to support their research and development of the world's mainstream performance of the chip, and this part of the funds should have flowed to the Western supply chain, but administrative actions to force interrupt the system, which is extremely short-sighted behavior.
@@guzilayerken5013 You’re not smarter or better at long term planning than the US government. I don’t why so many smooth brains think that. The US has had the largest and most efficient economy for more than a century. That doesn’t happen by accident. US economy is even more efficient per Capita than that of Germany or Japan
@@tylerclayton6081 >The US has had the largest and most efficient economy for more than a century
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, you're serious?
@@tylerclayton6081 The US government is good at long term planning? ROFL. Are you a time traveler from the 50s?
And now with Huawei Mate 60 Pro we are seeing the results
Only if the claims the kirin 9000s being made by SMIC is legitimate
@@The_Ballo Why wouldn't it be legitimate? This looks like the sputnik moment when Americans refused to believe that Russia could put a satellite in space 😅
@@julienckjm7430 Nice gaslighting attempt. America never refused to believe Sputnik. Every American with a radio could confirm it was up there.
@@The_Ballo Yeah sure! And now you're going to say the Kirin 9000s does not exist and it's all fake, even the Huawei Mate 60 Pro! 😅
Why is it hard for you guys to admit that anybody can advance in a certain domain even if it was deemed not plausible by everybody else?!! Get over it
@@julienckjm7430 Huawei knew the sanctions were coming which is why they had a stock of Hynix chips. China has been caught before passing off Intel processors (with the label changed) as "China made" CPUs. The proof will be if they make newer and faster Kirin processors.
It is possible to make 7nm processors with DUV but it's low yield and expensive, so the phones are being sold at a loss. The whole thing feels like a propaganda event.
i had never thought there was something darker to the bubble tea industry... but now im curious to know.
Why is everyone commenting on bubble tea industry? What's in there? What's the relation with bubble tea and semiconductor? Or all you guys are just professional spammer?
@@aniksamiurrahman6365 0:05 "I was hoping to spend my weekend working on a video about the bubble tea industry, but I have gotten far more emails asking me to do this one"
@@shazmosushi Bubble tea isn't popular in the area I live in. Like at all. So, can you explain the fuss about it? In a few worlds, perhaps?
Great coverage of a tricky topic. Thanks a lot
Imagine everyone thit thus was propaganda
Now Aug 2023- mass produced 6-7 nm chips by smic
Your channel is very focussed and always put up right point. Most media is corrupt now a days.
I'm quite happy with my Xiaomi mobile costing a fraction of iphone and Samsung.
Did SMIC N+2 make the 5G HiSilicon Kirin 9000S on Huawei Mate60pro ?
😍so happy to see a video up to date with current news without patreon
The biggest dynamo for Chinese high tech development has been American sanctions most of the Boomerang variety.
That is the farthest from clever one can get!
The farthest from clever was 40 years ago, when the US thought china would be docile and happy if allowed to export anything more than a pencil to the west. This is just the rude awakening from that mistake. Letting china run with it unimpeded would have been the bigger mistake at this point, once they asserted dominance in every other industry and this was the last remaining tech they didn’t possess.
@@HNedel nothing is impossible. It's just a matter of time. It takes me 4 to 5 years to mastered the roulette game.
@@loorobert6430 are you one of those people banned from Vegas and Atlantic City? And what does gambling have to do with semiconductors? Sure they can learn, the question is how fast can the gap be closed.
@@HNedel so looking at china behaviour now will the usa do same mistakes with Incia
"But insurmountable? Nothing is." Brilliant.
These are getting better and better. The effort you are putting into this venture is really showing.
Also, can't wait for the bubble tea video!
The funny thing is US can command a Netherlands company not to sell their products to a certain customer and they comply without resistance.
brilliant channel, you cover an eclectic range of technology, manufacture and industries. always suprising how things that i know zero about and have zero involvement with, are so fascinating and interesting to me
Glad to see Сhina catching up. The more so when this process is driven, to a large extend, by the U$ doing its best to slow them down.
Man, your channel is so good. I love how professional you are, keep up the good work
3/3 Yay! You have a "Thanks!" button... I've been trying to fling you a tip for ages, Paypal didn't work. Now if only I could enter the amount... I'll have to do several "drops"... Keep up the excellent work and appreciate your civility.
we look forward the N+3 and GAA
I hope that China can pull it off for, if nothing else, higher supply and faster development. More people working on something can only be a benefit for the people who want that thing, and I don't care one way or the other about who "wins" in some kind of weird race between countries. I just want better computers, and this is a good thing for that.
Just added competition.
If we have China Korea and USA all providing chips, it's good for us as consumers.
as a consumer, we still in competition with the bitcoin miners but with the competition of supply, consumer will win at the end, while maintaining the status quo of bitcoin miners
People just think that this is about US vs China. But it's more, imagine if China had truly decided to respect the IP of other countries China has long been the rip it off from other countries king.
@@johnjacobjinglehimerschmid3555 honestly, I think IP and copyright are just excuses to not innovate. We'd be better without them and China ignoring them makes it so that more innovation happens
get your paws out of Taiwan
finally the vids about SMIC 7nm!!!!
Even at this stage, it is an unbelievable success for China. So diligent they are.
I know nothing about this but I’ve been watching this for a few months. It’s pretty interesting
China just need time to produce theirown DUV and EUV machine
I for one would appreciate a bubble tea video. I love bubble tea... That said, this was an extremely interesting video haha. I've been wondering where SMIC went after the sort of went dark for several years after their 14nm node
Sanctions work!
They forces your own development to accelerate.
It will be interesting to see how long before ASML regrets not being allowed to sell to China.
I wonder if a X-ray synchrotron source wouldn't be viable in chip foundries this decade.
ASML has stated they expect the ban on sales to China to backfire already and were opposed to it.
@@rasmysamy2145 the news is not political friendly. Therefore, not much attention were paid on it back then.
@@rasmysamy2145 at least they were honest about that
It's not ASML, it's the americans been the obstacles.
They don't work.
Look at what's happening now, but you can continue to believe whatever the hell you want and live in your own bubble.
Kirin 9000s is N7+
n+1改良版
@@quebuwanger5679 Nope, they are using huawei modified second-hand nikon DUVs, kind like some sorts of pre/sub-EUVs, not the kind of DUVs we know. And this chips are not fabbed by SMIC, but by huawei's own fabs in shenzhen and wuhan city with technical help from SMIC.
@@wbyoung4280source?
13:23 I think Castlevania patent infringed that from God of War (2018). Its design is 99% identical to Sony Santa Monica's.
Kratos - Do not be sorry. Be. Better.
Every major economy started copying someone else first and just selling cheaper but to keep growing they must eventually start innovating. China no doubt already started to innovate. The only question is if they can innovate faster than everyone else.
China doesn't have to innovate faster. China will be fine with one or two generations behind.
@@snslifestyleorg I see a combination of China catching up and the west faltering. Look at Intel. They're having a hard time getting anything right these days.
@@quademasters249 The West still leads in semiconductor technology, but the 7nm breakthrough by China is significant.
@@snslifestyleorg I guess it depends on whether you consider Taiwan "the west". I guess they align west. Intel can't compete with TMSC anymore. Which I find quite disappointing.
@@quademasters249 Taiwan uses Western technology while China uses some indigenous equipment due to sanction. Meanwhile China memory Chip technology is already on par with the West, which is another breakthrough.
Intel bet on the wrong processing technology and failed which enabled AMD to race ahead of Intel with its 7 nm CPU.
INB4: I just commented China shipping 7nm rigs on an earlier video about a few hours ago.
I'd like to add that: though they shipped 7nm, I would not call it at par with TSMC's 7nm tech. But China is catching up faster than anticipated.
Perhaps true cause if it's at least on par with TSMC N7, Huawei would have used them already.
Their Kirin is still stuck without any new improvements.
Only if you take what China says at their word which Asianometry tends to do too much, but he does add some asterisks here. What is weird though is him saying that they should take pride in their accomplishment. I am like, why should they take pride and why should we congratulate them? China isn't some dirt poor underdog.
@@oohhboy-funhouse At 5:18 Jon seems to imply that SMIC is getting to N-7 by stealing TSMC trade secrets. If that is proven true, I don't know what is to congratulate about the Chinese achievement. Do we congratulate a cheater on getting a high score on an exam by stealing a copy of the exam beforehand?
@@oohhboy-funhouse 2:31 he's taking this '99% similar' as the words he relies on.
@@oohhboy-funhouse its called sportsmanship
"... SMIC's Long March" ... I see what you did there 😆
Well the participants in the Long March ultimately succeeded and united China.....
the issue is japan benefit from selling DUV, since they can't compete with EUV for market outside China. so it is not in their national interest to listen to the US on this. if Japan believe this was an issue, they would have ban the sale without US saying anything. Japan in fact know well that DUV sales has increase 10 times in the last few years, it is impossible that they have not already consider the issue. US can force ASML to stop selling since they use US tech, but Japan doesn't use US tech. there is no power for US to block it if Japan want to sell it.
The US can pretty much tell Japan what to do. They're occupying an entire Japanese island for crying out loud. The Japanese will have to listen to whatever the US says. They don't have a choice.
It is a tough decision to make but I wouldn’t say it is so clearly the worst option for Japan lol. Japan is preparing for hot war with China at this point, they may have to consider the cost/benefit analysis of how the export bans hurt on china’s economy and slow down their military efforts vs the short term income for japan
Japan hates CCP....
It's very uncomfortable how much the US intervenes with markets when its interests are on the line; even if it was temporarily, it's clear this is a regular strategy used to prevent other countries from rising above with their economies; then was Japan, now it's China's turn with Huawei, ASML bans, etc. At least be more honest and drop the "free market" ideology charade.
Oh, and also very ironic how US semiconductor industries "learned" from their good friends from Japan.. but if certain Asian countries "learn" from west enterprises, we call that "stealing" and "copying". The double standard is mind-blowing.
EXCELLENT : RED CHINA IS GREAT
1/3 [AGAIN. If it turns up twice... bonus] Yay! You have a "Thanks!" button... I've been trying to fling you a tip for ages, Paypal didn't work. Now if only I could enter the amount... I'll have to do several "drops"... Keep up the excellent work and appreciate your civility.
The scale of this is amazing, the Chinese building the entire value chain
Hi *Thank you for all your videos.* They are great and explain things very well. *I have one suggestion* - when you refer to videos that you have made in the past (such as the multi-patterning one you referred to in this video), it would be useful to put the link either in the description or in the linked videos. Thanks
The next Fast and Furious movie will be smuggling EUVs to an "unknown location in Asia"
I love your videos and are shocked they don't have move views. I wonder how the current market conditions in China will effect SMIC and their move to n+2. Also the new US Chip Act that was passed a few days ago.
It doesn't matter smic o tsmc Chinese people are the master unless you believe Taiwan is not China.
7 months ago: china is years and years behind
7 months later : china has 7nm fabs while the united States has 10nm fabs
If Taiwan is gone then china is technically ahead
one month in China is actually years in US. so the statement is actually right.
the fact that chinese 7nm chips turned up in a finished commerical product means they were in production months before they were discovered by the west.
Just came across your channel and appreciate what you do, thank you and hope all is well
Thought you'd appreciate being told that alumni is plural, and alumnus(male) or alumna(female) is singular. Always very impressed by your research skills and ability to make connections where others have not.
Dude, we speak English. Not Latin. In English the 'correct' usage of a word is _exactly_ 'how is it used in the population?'. The 'correct' usage of a word is not 'I have a book that says to use it this way, so you're wrong if you don't!'
FFS, learn how to brain.
@@Efecretion him being correct hurt your ego
@@Efecretion He was actually talking about English, not Latin. And by “book” do you mean English dictionaries?
PS: your username checks out.
Technically, alumni is plural, and aluminum is the singular. (And alumina is feminine, because women historically developed oxides for graduation ceremonies, though that distinction is seldom made in modern English.)
@@doodeedah6409 Yes he means dictionaries, as it's the usual argument of authority from prescriptive linguists and grammar nazis.
Like the word aquarium, Latin words are often used in only one of their forms. This applies in casual speaking as well as in several other official languages.
For China's semiconductor and high tech industry its practically a do or die situation, and their engineers and scientists have to deliver otherwise China will never be able to advance technologically and transition their economy from low tech to high tech. Its really a race condition since China is moving from low tech dirty industry to high tech to increase the income of their people and raise their standards of living!
Life is all about challenges and such obstacles can slow the progress but the match forward needs to continue and life goes on.....
physics works the same everywhere on earth and if its possible its just a matter of time and money to develop it. money china has plenty of, time is more important, but its not like china will collapse if it doesn't have the most advanced nodes by next week. military chips around the world are virtually all on way older nodes and china can make those easily. and vast majority of civilian items uses no more than 14nm. at worse the chinese get to use mid-range phones and slower PCs for a while.
in essence it a us strategy that is doomed to fail.
Who are the after viewers of huawei mate 60 pro released 😅
There is absolutely no 3rd party confirmation of where that CPU was manufactured. We have a bunch of talking heads reading labels as though China wasn't caught red handed passing off Intel chips as China-made in the past. If they run out of stock and people start receiving slow phones you'll know I'm right.
@@The_Ballotechinsight already break up the Kirin 9000s chips and found that it was made by 7nm SMIC chips. You need to get off your coping mechanism