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Adrian Rogers Calvinism The False Doctrine of Election- Correctly Understanding The Potter and Clay
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- Опубликовано: 19 авг 2024
- In the original text, it is the "Middle Voice" that clearly refers to the vessel "hardening itself" - not the potter.
ROMANS 9
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
All a question of interpretation
Time will tell see who will be
Saved and who wont
God will do the saving
And the separating!
"I'd rather scare you into Heaven than to lull you into Hell" Adrian Rodgers-
Fortunately, Mr. Rodgers you accomplish neither. It is the Spirit that awakens the "dead in trespasses " sinner of Romans 3:10-18. That person is the Natural man of 1 Corinthians 2:14 who has no ability or inclination toward Christ. Of the people who hear about Christ 95% reject Him and they go to hell. Those who have never heard, probably in the billions, go to hell .. So the 2 or 3% who become believers must be so very humble or very intelligent to be able to somehow understand and figure out what their problem is. Do you understand what you are saying you believe. The God who spoke the universe into existence must have the permission of a spiritually dead person [ see verses above] before He can save them. because without their permission to "ask Jesus into their heart" they will go to hell. Makes you wonder what your biblical understanding of Omniscience and Omnipotence is. The God of the bible has "always known everything knowable" and He doesn't need the permission of a spiritually dead person in order to save him. On top of that Greek grammar explains the truth that non come to God unless they were drawn and that before the creation of the earth. Those of you who do not believe in and understand the Sovereignty of God please present your theology as what you believe and not be so dogmatic. It is embarrassing to listen to you.
@Bob Wood, very good observation. Couldn’t have said it better myself.
@@bobwood5146 Is God sovereign? Of course, He is.
The Biblical understanding of God’s sovereignty recognizes that He is King of Kings, Lord of lords, the Highest Authority to which we may appeal, Giver of the law, Judge and Grantor of mercy. In this sense, truly God is indeed sovereign!
*“For the Lord, the Most High, is to be feared, a great king over all the earth.” (Psalm 47:2)
*“I am the Lord, your Holy One, the Creator of Israel, your King.” (Isaiah 43:15)
*“To the King of the ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.” (1 Timothy 1:17)
All believers agree that God is sovereign. The problem is that for my Reformed brethren, the term 'sovereignty' takes on a meaning that goes beyond its original definition.
When the sovereign of a kingdom or state promulgates laws and decrees, these are either freely obeyed or freely transgressed by its inhabitants. If an inhabitant decides to do evil, for example, to commit murder, this volitional decision escapes the control of the sovereign.
However, Calvinists argue that in the theological realm, the term 'sovereignty' transcends its original meaning. In their systematic, God cannot be sovereign if it is not He who decrees, commands, and causes absolutely everything that comes to pass. In their attempt to defend God’s sovereignty at unbiblical levels, Calvinists have created a 'god' very different from the God of the Bible. In fact, the Calvinist version of God is, in many ways, the real villain of human history, not the devil himself. Why? Because in the version of God that Calvinism presents to us, it is God Himself, and not the devil, who is the true author of evil. The devil is just a poor pawn in this macabre and cruel game, where the freedom and agency of the created beings is pure illusion.
Brother Bob, please, save your strawmanning by saying things like, "The God who spoke the universe into existence must have the permission of a spiritually dead person [ see verses above] before He can save them. because without their permission to "ask Jesus into their heart" they will go to hell." It is embarrassing to read you.
@@VictorFelipe82 Read John 15:16 and also all the verses where Jesus tells people NO one comes to him unless the Father who sent me draws him. Also, Jesus says in 1 verse ...I will lose NONE of whom the father has given me but will raise them up in the Last day. Sovereign actually means to have complete power to do as one wills. Election and predestination are not a bad thing, it's absolutely fair and just by God the Father
@@sarahgracebrooks2629 Morning, sister Sarah. Thanks for participating.
1.- I have read my Bible. I know what John 15:16 teaches. You're taking a verse that should not be used to create a universal doctrine. Here Jesus is addressing his disciples. So it's an actual historical account, in which Jesus is in fact choosing His own disciples.
2.- You bring up John 6:44, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, ...". Again this refers to a historical event. You can't use this to mean that some are chosen to believe while others are passed over for reprobation. Remember that Jesus's main ministry regarding evangelism while He was in the flesh was to bring the good news of salvation to the House of Israel. So this is referring to those who already belonged to the Father at that specific historical moment in which the passage in question unfolds were already believers in the Father, but they had not yet been led to trust in the Son. They had been walking in covenant with the Father through the Law of Moses. However, this was a new era in the history of God's relationship with man. This was the transition from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant in the Son of God. They already honored the Father, but now they would honor the Son through the testimony of the Father. The Father was giving "all things" to the Son (John 3:35, 1 Corinthians 15:24-28). All those who already trusted in the Father were being led by God in the hands of His Son. And, of course, only those who valued God's testimony would be influenced to embrace His Son (John 6:45).
3.- I hope you've been reading what I'm sharing so far. Sister, you seem to be one of those read-only Calvinists, who simply go through the mechanics of skimming through the text but do not actually stop to analyze what is written. I'm saying this because you wrote "Sovereign actually means to have complete power to do as one wills.", but you bring no Scriptures to back that up, while I used Bible verses to support the concept of sovereignty. In fact, my first comment was exclusively devoted to explaining what sovereignty actually means. So I won't go over it again.
4.- You said "Election and predestination are not a bad thing". And I finally agree with you. Yes, election is part of God's plan, and predestination is part of God's plan. Yes, election and predestination belong to our sovereign God. Election and predestination are indeed found in the Bible. The problem is that you have in your mind a Calvinistic understanding of election and predestination, not the biblical meaning of election and predestination. Due to time constraints, we can just summarize both concepts as follows: Election basically has to do with God electing Israel to be the people from whom our Redeemer, the Lord Jesus Christ, would manifest in the flesh. (Genesis 12:1-3, Deuteronomy 7:7-9, Romans 9:4-5, Romans 9:10-13, Galatians 3:16, Ephesians 1:4, etc.). Predestination basically has to do with God decreeing in advance the destiny (pre-destinated, set the destination in advance) of those who, by their own faith, would reconcile with Him through His only begotten Son, our Lord Christ Jesus. So predestination doesn't have to do with "who is going to be in Christ" but with "where we are going in Christ" o "what we are becoming in Christ". (Romans 8:28-30, Ephesians 1:5, etc.).
God bless, sister Sarah.
Calvinism doesn’t bother to incorporate the Old Testament reference of the potter and the clay. It is abundantly clear the clay became marred in His hand. He didn’t mar it purposefully, but through virtue of itself it became corrupted. Then we see if one repents God will relent upon the disaster He intended to bring. It’s far less genetic or binary than what Calvinism would like to advertise, as biblically you can switch from being a vessel of wrath into one of mercy. The potter makes the rules we just live under His system. Choose wisely
Very touchy subject indeed compare Israel punishment and the Holocaust.
Only calvinism will prevent you from hearing
Unbelievable how bad this exegesis is. Ear tickling.
Since Mr. Rogers passed away he has become a believer in God's electing grace.
He's mainly arguing against double predestination.
When I hear what he says about Romans Ch. 9 I know that he has a twisted understanding of Predestination. In that scripture Paul is simply telling us that that God
has people he chosen for mercy and those he has to receive justice.
He obviously doesn't understand the making of pottery. Some break up during the firing process. Rodgers was an SBC guy so there is that...
2:11 this man is WRONG! For Jude says "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ORDAINED to this CONDEMNATION" and Paul says "For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will BELIEVE the lie and so that all will be CONDEMNED who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness”
This is false. He denies the sovereignty of God and the clear teaching of scripture.
Why is it that you Calvinists have a problem with the doctrine that people other than yourselves can be saved? Have you ever felt sorry for anyone who isn't "chosen for heaven" as you believe? Seems as if you'd all be deeply offended if you really found out salvation is given to "whosoeve will" and that God really is "not willing that any should perish."
@@ChildOfThe1970sI fully agree with you! It’s funny that he still has no answer
Okay, Calvinist.... put YOURSELF in the place of someone whom GOD has denied access to heaven. You lot have NO problem saying it is GOD'S GOOD PLEASURE or *SOVEREIGN CHOICE* in sending MILLIONS to HELL. BUT What if YOU were in that number God CHOSE to torture for all eternity?
Would you be willing to look up Isaiah 42:1. Who is that verse referring to? Messiah? Okay then, if "ELECTION" is to SALVATION, does that mean the Jesus had to be ELECT to SALVATION before He could decide who HE would choose for heaven?
If SOVEREIGNTY means God is IN CONTROL, then WHY can't HE choose to give humanity a choice. See, the conditions are still HIS. GOD issues the invite, HE sets down the rules. John 3:16, 17
SERIOUSLY! I'd sooner cozy up to the iceberg that sunk the Titanic than to try to explain God's LOVE to a CALVINIST. You lot would give an ICEBERG brain freeze! ABSOLUTELY HEARTLESS!
THANK YOU!!!!!!!! @@ChildOfThe1970s P.S. I'm also a child of the 70's. My favorite movies are going to be 50 this year and I'll be turning 60. YIKES. But it's still not as scary as trying to explain LOVE to a CALVINIST. Oh..... have you ever read Dave Hunt's book *"What LOVE is THIS?"* If you can get it, get it! My copy is practically a coloring book with all the highlighting!
There's also a verse in Titus2:11 that says the grace (unmerited favor) that has brought salvation has come to ALL people. The tragedy that too many reject the offer doesn't nullify the offer. Either Christ died for EVERYONE or HE didn't die for ANYONE because there is NO partiality with GOD. (Romans 2:11 @@ChildOfThe1970s