Sub-postmasters Are Still Being 'Pursued' By Post Office Over Horizon System Faults
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- Опубликовано: 11 фев 2024
- It has been reported that Sub-Postmasters are still being chased by the Post Office for thousands of pounds due to continuing faults with the Horizon I.T. system.
Sub-Postmaster Jacqueline Franklin says that the scandal is now in its second generation after her mother, Lillian's final years, were tarnished by repeated unexplained shortfalls.
Broadcast on 12/02/24
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#GMB #postoffice #horizon #postmasters #alanbates 
Развлечения
Time for the Post Office to be prosecuted for False Accounting.
Yes the whole way that these very decent people have been treated is disgusting and Fujitsu who have been given lots of contracts by governments and the post office are all using there power to step on these people when they are absolutely innocent of all charges and now it’s time to start locking up those in power that have been covering all this up it’s totally shameful Get these people the money they are due and NOW
@@user-dy9zj5zc7l people thought death was a better option than living due to these friends of tory .and they still did not blink.we should have a long list of mp's who defended this on tv in the past few months alone .along with the bbc and other media owned by people in parliment.
ThePost Office Directors must go to jail
That's an absolute,
The post office is awfully quick to chase any “discrepancies” but they’re not so keen to pay all of this back. Funny that.
It's called corporate embezzlement.
Post office doing what they do best.....nothing!!
Watching the inquiries shows the complete incompetence and criminal actions by the post office !!!
SHAME ON THE POST OFFICE.
shocking isnt it
@samgovani8292 "Post office doing what they do best.....nothing!!" NO, they are doing what they do best ...LYING
The whole post office board need sacking and bringing to trial for what they've done.
and past board members.
Paula Vennells is in urgent need of a personality transplant.
@@philhart4849 she found a good position in the church of england to grift futher on.
@@andydudley1775 And so the country's sociopaths continue to wreak their evil upon others.
I'm fed up with hearing politicians saying "lessons must be learnt" in this country & nothing ever gets done to fix any of the problems, everything gets kicked into the long grass where it becomes someone else's problem further down the line, every time something goes wrong (which is getting ever more frequent) we get fobbed off with promises they know they have absolutely no intention of keeping.
The shocking people at the post office namely executives and directors should be removed from their positions immediately as they have committed fraud on an industrial scale against postmasters and the public purse.Ministers that have signed off bonuses for executives and directors should be named and shamed immediately.
I'm pleased to see you use the term "shocking people at the post office" and not 'Post Office'.
Lets not forget that it is 'people' doing this, and it's 'people' that need to held account.
i think the life is priceless and worth more than paper.i doubt you see any tory thinking like this.
The government should immediately imprison all post office senior managers including those who left on massive private pensions and hold them until the inquiry ends and sentences issued.
There should be some statutory provision which allows their pensions to be frozen until the official inquiry is concluded and blamed apportioned.
Who owns the post office?
The reality is that these criminals at the top, know exactly what they are doing and they are trying to drag everything out whilst denying everything still, because that's what criminals do, lie and deny and delay.
and lining their pockets
Well spotted, Philip. You're not a serving or retired police officer, by any chance? I'm a retired officer and what you describe is exactly what the buggers do!
i am shocked how many of these people on mass forgot what the job was .once in front of people they have to answer too.they got paid right they accepted rewards for the service they seem to know nothing about .every single one of them.
Paula Vennells and her ilk need to be held properly to account.
Unbelievable. In any private company, this software would have been decommissioned years ago.
The post office and Fujitsu should now be under criminal investigation with the jail as a definite for many complicit Post Office / Fujitsu staff .
Why are they still using this clearly fraudulent contract
Sunak signed it off several years ago,
I had same problem with IRD in New Zealand pursued for over quarter of a million and eventually (this was before many small businesses used accounting methods) I ran out of money to use accountants etc so ended up doing it all myself and eventually proved IRD wrong and they paid me just under $20,000. To collect this we spent all our money and went into debt to prove them wrong but like your post office they have government money behind them and our lawyer recommended we not pursue them because it would destroy our family and health😢
when was this?
@@carrier411 late 1990s. Caused premature death of my husband from stress
This is both unbelievable and disgraceful
Shocking really ! how this situation is still going on destroying peoples lives. Government need to face up to its responsibility !!
There is only one solution to this, shut the whole f!*k up down and start from scratch, with jail time for those in charge.
So no Post Offices for a few years while they start from scratch? How would that work for people who rely on Post Offices?
I hate em….i really really hate em…..And the Government!!!
i be care full of those words could be ilegal if talking about tory ,you tube been farming us into silence .and they call them selves a media out let .
Just watched a Post Office inquiry, the person must have said I can’t recall 100 times, but could remember names at that time, it was obvious they were side stepping the issue, no one told them about horizon problems, they didn't know. No one told them! Not seen any paper reports nore watched Panorama programs on the subject, nothing, they came across as very slippery. No doubt trying to make sure they don’t go to jail.
You wouldn't happen to be referring to that Scouse investigator? I was watching his body language. He was being very careful what he said and was clearly thinking about what he was going to say. But the biggest giveaway was his physical gestures. He looked ready to jump down the interrogator's throat, but his breathing gave away the fact that his backside was playing tunes.
@@bluebottle1617 Constantly looking to his solicitor. I wonder if they have a code for communication.
I wish this was shocking but its exactly what is expected from this immoral unfeeling arrogant organisation.
It’s not “paid back,” that’s the wrong word choice. The Post Office, disastrous situation is horrendous. Recompense is needed now. ♥️🌻🙏👨🏽🦽
Restitution for the monies taken then punitive compensation including to the estates of those who have passed away plus all convictions overturned with again compensation for wrongful conviction over and above the punitive compensation then the prosecution of senior post office managers and Fujitsu managers
The reality is that the PO is committing fraud.
The correct term is "restoration". The Post Office must restore 100% of all monies it took from sub postmasters and mistresses.
@@bluebottle1617 With interest. And then it must compensate for the reputation loss. And then the directors who issued the punishment must go to jail.
did you know the .p.o ACCOUNTS SHOW THEM CLAIMING TAX BACK ON COMPO from the very people they acused of stealing from them.when they was not guilty to the tune of 900 million.and we paid it out of our tax .who sign that off make me wonder .
It's high time the system was scrapped😠
what a disgrace. it's a shocker. I live in NZ and have just discovered this saga. It's heartbreaking and unbelievable what has gone on.
until senior management is in danger of time spent behind bars,and all missing monies are their responsibility nothing will change. As for ministers stepping into help. You can hope, but I've yet to see any action from them unless it effects their pocket.
Any shortfalls that have occurred due to the Horizon system should be put to one side until they can be forensically examined by someone independent of the Post Office.
They're still doing it. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. That's government.
Sack the whole board and replace Fujitsu with something else ASAP. Nothing else will do!
After all what has gone off regarding Fujitsu/Post office hasn’t anything actually been learned, the Horizon should be shut down as it obviously isn’t fit for purpose, it is still causing problems for all.
I totally agree with you, Rob.
And our government is STILL giving Fujitsu Millions in NEW contracts even now. Britain is a joke a sick joke but a joke !!
And replaced with what?
Contact the post office in the Fair Isles... they have been pursued for £1000s... And there are only 60 people on the island!!!!
No one in their right mind is going to want to take on sub post office. As people retire or die sub post offices will disappear, only a complete restructuring of the post office and its systems along with absolute reassurances of immunity from these issues is going save it in the long term.
WHY IS THIS STILL HAPPENING ???????????
We know from the successful appeal process that a miscarriage of justice took place in prosecuting many SPMs. In order for that to occur individuals had to be responsible for perverting that course of justice. Why one has been arrested is amazing when it is quite obvious who were complicit in perverting the course of justice. (Perverting the course of justice is a serious criminal offence that can carry a sentence of up to life in prison and whilst life imprisonment is unlikely, it is unusual for the court to impose a penalty other than a prison sentence). Meanwhile SPMs should receive every penny that was illegally stolen from them including interest from the time the money was stolen. This would include the sale of any of their property including homes to finance the fines paid to the PO. Compensation should then be paid over & above what they were due as previously stated. All the PO investigators should be prosecuted as there was not an investigation into the shortfalls. It was decided before hand the SPMs were guilty. That branch of the PO should be shut down & the "investigators" fired. Fujitsu must be held to be liable to have to pay compensation as they did not deliver a system fit for purpose which is similar to the supply of duff PPE during the pandemic. They should be banned from providing any further Govt contracts. The whole board of the PO who did nothing to stop this malicious prosecution should be fired & any bonuses they accrued during that time should have to be paid back. Any Govt ministers who did nothing especially the board member(s) representing the Govt should be named & shamed. Prosecuting lawyers should also be investigated to determine if they perverted the course of justice & debarred if found guilty. Criminal proceedings should be held against all individuals who were instrumental in prosecuting the SPM falsely starting with the CEOs & directors of Fujitsu & POL. It has come to light auditors Ernst & Young approved the PO’s accounts during the time that the PO was stealing SPM money & using it to boost PO profits enabling PO executives to earn large bonuses. They must be investigated for not reporting this activity that they were paid handsomely to discover.
Well said and well-written.
Totaly agree with you sadly none of that will happen it will all be quietly allowed to be forgotten. With the UK's Banana Republic levels of corruption !
If the Criminal Courts were to convict people the way the P.O. have, 1/2 the country would be in prison.
An alleged criminal act has to be PROVEN by the prosecution - the P.O. simply says "you did it, pay up".
Surely by now the PO realises that they and Fujitsu own and run the software. When it goes wrong they need to trawl through the logs until they understand exactly where it went wrong.
They should only be asking a SPM to make up shortfalls when they can PROVE the SPM was at fault.
Any other time it's the problem of the PO.
Ohhhh post office!!!! Shameful!
The Poo Office and Poo-Jitsu.
As Nick said elsewhere, it's mad because now the post office Ltd doesn't know the difference between theft and a computer glitch
like any scam you'll never be able to pay it away, if the system has errors paying it away isn't going to fix the bug causing it.
Where is the money?
A post office cash machine swallowed my up until then perfectly working hsbc debit card leaving me stranded cashless. Post office refused to give any explanation or apology.
Why is she still working for the post office??
Strange how the PO still has faith in Horizon?
The Post Office is not fit for purpose as is Horizontal! The PO must be taken back into direct government contra and new staff put in charge, and Horizon must be replaced but not by the crooks at Fujitsu who should be sued for failure to supplying a working system!
2019.. a bunch of lawyer and judges now state that horizon is robust. A word that has no legal definition. I want ti know if it is 100 percent accurate and what degree of confidence they will assign to it and their personal money.
I've been reading the legal judgement on The Horizon Issues. Interestingly, the Post Office argue that 'robust' in technical terms means that any glitches and errors in the system are identified and dealt with by a remote 'fixing team' as they occur !!!!!!
Robust ! They said that years ago why would you believe them now
I've been reading the legal judgement on The Horizon Issues (on the Justice for Sub-postmasters Alliance website). It's fascinating. In it the Post Office argue that a 'robust' computer system means that any glitches and errors in the system are identified and dealt with by a dedicated 'fixing team' as they occur !!!!!!
the courts system of sending the inacent down on mass habitualy for 14 years for the P.O. is robust .why was the judges asleep for 20 years .900 mistakes and hardly a judge asked a question.
Well it’s about time that changed then because these people are plainly innocent and they need to be paid out for all those years of extreme pain they have been through
That money is going somewhere? The police need to court order the remote access logs. see who remotely logged on and what they are up to
If your still working for the post office.....stop ...now. Close your shop immediately.
Still happening! They should take all prosecutions from the Post Office with immediate effect and transferred to the CPS! The investigators going around like they are a modern day Judge Dread/ gestapo, especially that one from Liverpool. He is a nasty bit of work. Lets hope that they have to pay back all their bonuses that they got over the years. As someone said, nothing will be done, just kicked into the long grass like Grenfell. Hope I'm wrong!
Cash is king get rid of computers happier times before the internet
Don't trust the Post Office an inch further than you could kick it.
I think if I were a postmaster I would have cameras trained on my computer screen, keyboard and till recording every transaction and, when it was my turn to get turned over by Post Office 'bouncers' I'd give them copies of every minute of footage so that they could enjoy weeks and months carefully analysing my 'defence' evidence.
So many similarities with the way the Child Maintenance Service is run, demands for money which can't be proved to be owed, threats of legal action to get you to pay up, and if you don't pay what they demand they have the power to take money straight from your wages or your bank account. They told me that I owed £11,600 from 25 years ago, refused to prove it, refused all my evidence, ignored my ex when she asked them to close the case and froze my bank account for two years. In a letter to my MP they said that they couldn't prove that I owed anything as they had destroyed the records, that they had all my evidence of payments made but hadn't conformed them with my ex, that I would simply have to accept that I still owed it and they were going to take it from my bank account whether I liked t or not! At no time was I able to put my evidence before a judge, they don't need to go through a court to take your money. Having watched Mr Bates vs the Post Office I can definitely sympathise for the stress caused to the 'little person' when pursued by a Government department who are not prepared to listen.
That's absolutely terrible. I think you'll find some lawyers who will happily take these crooks on. Surely they would not be able to support their position in a courtroom, despite them thinking that they can do whatever they want.
@@gaz8891 , just like the post office they can demand and take, they can ignore the courts and very few people can risk taking them on, losing and being responsible for their costs.
Where is Nick Reed? He is an undercover CEO who only comes out of hiding to count his bonus. He must be removed immediately.
If that is the case, seize the bonuses of ALL PO executives until this shitshow is sorted out. If they have offshored their bonuses, then seize their UK-based assets until resolution is achieved.
The entire Horizon system needs to be thrown out, it is obviously not working and never worked and it needs to be garbaged.
Unbelievable nearly 30 years of continuous incompetence tear up the contact and make Fujitsu pay for the mistakes that there system is making not the sub post office owner who are just doing their jobs for very little return because they run very small businesses that service the locals because if they were a profitable business the Post Office 🏤 would run it
As it seems impossible to put a finger on where these continuing errors/fraud/user-error/Horizon bugs - call it what you will; sack Fujitsu, shut down the Horizon system and get back to PAPER until a competent system can be put in place.
I'd have a receipt book with carbon copies to prove a transaction and have the buyer and employee sign it. At least there would be a paper trail.
Impossible. I had a one position subpostoffice and the weekly balance reconciliation turnover debit/credit/ stock control reconciliation transaction balance was over £30k weekly £1.5million annually. I don’t think the public understands the large amount of transactions and stock that is balanced in a post office. A crown office would have an annual transaction turnover of £1billion.
@@mewel1234 Well, then you need a camera pointed right at the computer screen, that is date and time stamped to prove a transaction and when it goes blink. Using tech to combat tech is the only answer than.
Impossible, all transactions don’t go through the screen at the Post office. Thats why the subpostmasters can’t check for faults themselves
@@mewel1234 The main complaint though was... With... the use of the screens and the transactions done on it. The screens are aligned with the computer under the counter and that is aligned with the main computer. With a lot of stuff in-between the last two. If the screen goes Blue, it's recorded. If the transaction is On the screen but fails to record, the transaction is recorded on the camera. Companies, here in the US use them for just that too.
@@maria.and2265I think you are missing the point. It's not about what evidence can be given . It's about how evidence is manipulated or disregarded. The system was and is known to have bugs. It was presented as robust and reliable. This is about criminal intent by post office and abusing power to get what they want. Not about a subpostmaster being careful . It is likely to make no difference to the outcome.
once the tory got hands on this they middled the victims to make a proffit .reconise any thing.
Did the Horizon system ever throw up unexplained surpluses? Why was it always unexplained shortfalls?
Yes of course. Surpluses were transferred to POltd suspense account. Kept for a length of time, if not reconciled these would transferred to PO Ltd profits.
The Post Office should get rid of Fujitsu computing absolutely. It is a flawed system which has and is ruining peoples lives. And it’s about time that the Post Office put an end to the continual torture it has put those innocent Post Masters through. It is shameful the way they have treated them for many years, even though they were aware of the flawed system.
In Australia I noticed that only a few years ago the local Post Offices still used a DOS system on their Computers. ( I haven’t checked recently). Which was the basic system on all Microsoft Computers prior to Windows and still runs in the background. Maybe they knew, if it works why change it.
"they closed it down" prove that I am guilty! The real problem is the contract.
it is very clear that the continued so called bugs in the system are not bugs. it is very clear that there is a back door into the system which is being used by government, corporation and others who are benefitting from this theft. clearly to privatize the PO. who stands to benefit?
Still pursuing in 2024? How....
Where does all the "missing" money go when these poor sub postmasters pay it "back." It was never missing! So who got all this extraoney? Was it used to pay Paul's Vennell's 2 million pound bonus?
Yes. From what I understand, it went into the PO accounts.
Wouldn't it be nice to feel that there was someone competent at the helm. I just cant see it and we are destined to repeat this dreadful debacle in the future.
Throw out Horizon. Dump Fujitsu. Other companies have made large-scale distributed systems which actually work. Horizon has failed time and time again, and after >20 years it still fails. Start over. Fujitsu should have to pay for it.
Here is the thing, apart from all the other aspects of this affair the role of Lord Neuberger in the Recusal seems to have escaped attention.
I have therefore pasted the following ‘The role of Lord Neuberger in the recusal fiasco (Justice Fraser) should be investigated’ on as many RUclips articles as I could, about ten, but when I checked to see if there was any response I discovered they had all been taken down.
This Kafkaesque episode staggers one at every turn, even when Big brother has been outed he seems to be still working away!
I really want to know why Lord Neuberger interfered , if the recusal had succeeded the whole noble attempt at taking on the stinking system would have failed
And I bet the federation of sub postmasters has done nothing but prop up the Post offices position. They claimed my mother stole £2,000 so my mother shut the post office. Her losses were nothing to do with the horizon system.
Who owns the post office?
The Government, ie. us.
Being pursued now? How bout a defamation countersuit
The thing that winds me up most is that the ‘Horizon’ system can’t cost more than a few thousand to engineer and code for.
I’ve been in SE for 7+ years, as has my partner. It’s such a shame the Government outsourced this sort of thing for Billions, causing all this chaos, when there are perfectly good software engineers in this country who get overlooked.
Such a shame. My thoughts are with those caught up in all of this.
It's a good job horizon isn't in charge of airlines nobody would fly 😂
This studio presenter, He does warble on.
Look how many times the apps and operating system on your phone have to be updated due to bugs. Horizon is just another computer program which is bound to have faults.
Is there really money disappearing or just an error?
Seems to me to be an error.
I've been reading the legal judgement and it seems that they are several types of bugs, and they don't understand everything. Often there was no loss of money, just duplicated transactions, but I think that in some cases money is actually disappearing and they haven't got to the bottom of it. Computers, huh !
Let Jacqueline finish and a presenter shut up and listen to her. All you are doing is going over old ground so stop watering and be quiet.
Horizon, and the PO in general are clearly a shambles, but there are two things I don’t understand:
1. The Subpostmasters can set a video camera on the till to document failures. Why has nobody done this? Ive not heard of a single post office where that’s been done.
2. If the subpostmasters are losing money, why aren’t they leaving for a better paying and less stressful job?
I’m not saying this to be facetious or mean, I am honestly wondering why and if anyone can suggest the reasons, please do!
The subpostmasters had to invest money to provide premises for the Post Office. They can’t just leave for another job without getting their substantial investment back. They were entitled to redundancy payments if their office was closed because of reduced number of offices needed because of computerisation. Average redundancy payments are £64000
Also all transaction are not through the till, so it’s not worth video a till. Stock and cash received as stock, don’t go through the till.
Has Rishi Sunak,his wife or his father-in-law got shares in the Post Office or Fujitsu?,.......just wondering.
Does it seem likely an established member of the community, who knows they are being watched, is going to take cash from the till?
Or is it more likely this is a mistake.l, likely caused by a faulty IT system?
£100,000 for each VICTIM then the P.O has to pay back every single penny paid for so called faults
see this comment i made here i just wwritten as a reply further down .i can not comment on it .can some one explain what you tube doing here .........the courts system of sending the inacent down on mass habitualy for 14 years for the P.O. is robust .why was the judges asleep for 20 years .900 mistakes and hardly a judge asked a question....hardly abusve is it .
Why do you keep saying “paid back thousands of pounds”.!!
Sorry, but after what's happened with Horizon, I would be a lot more 'robust' in standing my ground.
Why don’t sub postmaster strike en bloc until this is sorted out
Sadly we still need the Post Office for our mail and parcels to be sent, they're still needed
The question is! can the software industry be trusted? In 2016 I had mobile freemium game that was just barely 2 years old became faulty after a software update cause by common flaw when downloadable content(DLC) that is not configured properly that can cause new software bugs to form on the existing software! the customer support with third party developer was beyond appalling they accused me of my devices not being in the correct operating condition. I consider that claim to be false and misleading as the condition of my devices were working correctly and perfectly fine and that it was part of the cause and it was not at fault. It changed my trust forever with online gaming and digital services tech giants like Google don't actually care and treat the Australian consumer law like if its optional, disposable and dosen't apply to digital services or software.
Why hasn't starmer been questioned he was head of the cps at the time of the post office scandal he was in the position to do something.
People was sent to prison suicides lives ruined what was starmer doing seriously.
Think they were private prosecutions by the post office
No police involvement or cps
I know one thing if the major supermarkets had a till system that behaves like Horizon did/does it would soon be in the car park
As much as I’m not a Starmer fan, most of the prosecutions weren’t through the CPS
@@MetalSamantha
There was 700 cases
While the post office itself prosecuted hundreds of post office operators based on faulty horizon IT system it has emerged from official reviews that at least 10 cases taken by the cps resulted in convictions 3 occurred while starmer was DPP starmer was in charge.
283 cases were brought by other bodies including cps many of those convicted went to prison for false accounting and theft cps said they were only behind an handful of cases surly even one innocent person is one to many.
Why hasn't starmers part in it been questioned or even mentioned on the msm.
Had it been a tory they would have been on at it day after day.
GMB are Labour supporters has is most of the media.
So starmer gets it easy.
@@richbrown8174
Apparently Tony's Blair was warned they could be faulty.
the post office legal department is from top to bottom totally bereft of morals, ability, competence and understanding. That they are still operating, that some of the creatures shown to be liars and bullies are still employed by the PO beggars belief. The entire team must be disbanded.
Well now I guess you guys wish you had a litigation practices of America. Where you sue Fujitsu directly and heard by a jury.
...no thanks...that culture of everyone out for a buck is horrible