In order words, just like the fans opinions, this is all subjective, top anything depends on the criterias on which you build it. Broky was #8 for instance because in your own words, you value a player's top 5 events very highly, similarly to how hltv looks at the past 3 months. You also put more value on arena and high value matches. So in other words, as long as the peaks are high, the lows don't matter as much when you build your top 20. Which is fine, but it's obviously not anything close to "objectively correct".
Exactly. They value arena matches, individual awards, and high value matches. Then you have a player like torszi, who sucked in all of those but had "high floor" rating and that is what is used instead as a reason to place him in top20. Complete joke.
@@cLCS2 Cause stats at group stages shouldn't matter in the slightest in comparing the best players in the world. HLTV is absolutely correct. Studio matches, online matches, group stages. Don't matter. When everyone was shitting their pants out of donk, broky outperformed donk and zywoo and took faze to major final. That alone worth much higher than anything players lower than him did in the whole year.
Why does HLTV prioritize the best few events for players knowing that it's not always an accurate representation of their entire year? It's not called HLTV's Top 20 players of their five best events, why are troughs not counted? KingT highlights w0nderful but I think the other highly inconsistent NAVI player who slipped under everyone's radar was jL. At his best he looked like a top 5 player but he had horrible lows compared to those around him. NiKo had just three big events below 1.14 (1.09, 1.03, and the 2 series .51 Rio), sh1ro had just three events below 1.13 (1.06, 1.06, 0.72 over 2 series at cologne) while jL had his three worst events all below 1.00 by a large margin (0.90, 0.86 World Final over 2 series, 0.84). JL's peaks paint him as their equal but his entire year shows a clear gap in consistency. Without knowing the inner workings of EVP/MVP discussions it seems like consistency within an event matters more than high peaks but across the year peaks are favored over consistency. Even looking at something like map to map peaks jL falls far behind the other two (because he was highly inconsistent overall and the system just happened to be formulated to reward the exact type of inconsistency jL brought in 2024). Sure within the criteria of 2024's top 20 jL was 5th but jL's 2024 was the exact type of year that only looks like a top 5 year if you don't take a wider lens and look at the whole year and don't take a narrower lens and evaluate it map to map instead of event to event.
Broky was in the top 3 in the first half of the year when zywoo was not awakened at that point and people forget that! And faze always had the hardest road to finals of majors. In Copenhagen broky basically matched the prime donk form and made the final possible. In kato he also did that in the playoffs. I would say broky was top 3 or top4 in the first half and top 15 in the second half. He is the second best clutcher of the game behind only monesy in 2024. He won rounds and didn't save as much as other awpers:)
@georgbergsten6050 lol. Striker said the exact same thing that i write! You are dead wrong. Broky was third after copenhegan. Sh1ro is only relevant because of donk don't make me laugh man
I also said on forums that arena rating was created as an excuse to put monesy at top2, turns out i was wrong since it came out last year but it doesnt take away from the fact that zywoo had better rating in big event playoffs this year, and monesy only got a better arena rating because monesy underperformed in epls and zywoo overperformed in epls. You want to look at big event playoff ratings? sure thats an important stat to look but for me arena rating is bs. Are you telling me that monesy didnt get far in epls because he didnt want to try in studios? thats some bullshit lol
@ maybe not, but zywoo has like 1.40 in epl playoffs combined and monesy has around 1.20 in epl playoffs its very convenient for monesy that playoffs where he performed worse than his playoff numbers get dropped which boosts his arena rating, vice versa for zywoo
@@tolgacam1907 EPL Playoffs aren't an arena. They are a small studio with a few close friends and family watching. That is not in any way "convenient".
This narrative of zywoo being a group merchant and playoff chocker is straight up criminal. Btw zywoo had prestegious mvp cologne in 2024 monesey had none. Regards.
Turkish people cant be really objective ... Fabre coach of the year ?! , Xantares opener of the year on top of Donk ?! Maj3r IGL of the year... maybe you should decline his vote next year ... this is a joke
They put themselves Top-1 absolutely wherever possible: Xantares, woxic, maj3r, fabre. What a shame to the whole integrity of the awards. I mean, I can imagine couple of those guys (xanti & maj3r) being top-3 at their categories, but putting them absolutely the best in each category is a shame. HLTV should look closely at this not to lost the whole thing in the building
@@nikitqa09 exactly that, imagine everyone voting like him , would make no sense in having this voting and awards anymore , they should make no exception and the person responsible for this voting should be removed immediately and not allowed to vote for next HLTV awards
The thing I was most interested in seeing you address was the fact that why G2 was voted better than Spirit in the Team of the Year category. Didn't talk about that, or am I just stupid?
I’ve said it before and will say it again. HLTV has never heard of the eye test and the Mouz ranking is a prime example. Roles matter in terms of stats and when your put into position to farm ecos your “Rating” is gonna be better.
The issue is you have to provide a definitive criteria weighing all stats comparatively BEFORE the top 20 starts. That way you wouldn’t be explaining some players’ placing in the top 20 at times with arena rating, at times with big event rating, at times with evps, at times with ceilings/floors…etc. make up your mind beforehand to ensure the most objectivity. You’re a stats org in the end anyways.
I think there should be a popular vote held for this awards but only a small % of the final score would be from voting like 20% and 80% from HLTV score. Cheers.
Having specific selection criteria is of course a bias. But its a bias with transparency and a system behind it. When I see something falling to the ground, I am biased to thinking the main force behind that was gravity, even though someone might have thrown it down while I wasn't looking, which added more than half of the acceleration on the falling object. I think that my bias is reasonable given no additional information other than "object has moved to ground".
HLTV should have taken notice by how the committe put elige as top3 opener, while iM was 6th. This matches the eye test for most fans. If hltv ranks land iM higher than elige, I'd say the problem is solely in w/e criteria was pulled out of the hat to use in hltv ranks.
Fighting over the scraps? These rankings can have a massive effect on these player's careers. From getting on good teams to being able to be in a better position for contract negotiation. It's pretty sad that this isn't taken more seriously. Someone else will eventually do it if you guys don't do it right.
This was in relation to third place in the opener of the year category, where donk was a clear winner and whoever got third was a toss-up. Not related to top 20 or as a general point.
I believe that all the people who choose anyone else at top 1/2 opener besides donk and niko, shouldn't vote next year, they are too biased, same with like woxic 1st, maj3r/siuhy 1st.. anyone who choose a different coach than blade at 1st.
To clarify, I think you did a great job pointing out what is frustrating about this list: having to follow such a set criteria and using multi-dimensional explanations as to how ropz is higher than EliGE despite having played worse. I think this criteria is designed to try and please everyone, and you'd be better off just making a list based on the eye test of a committee of analysts instead of following the gospel of the stats. You'd have a list that is less analytic in justifying but it would make a lot more common sense, and you wouldn't have to have farmers like w0nderful almost at top 10 while workhorses like XANTARES are stuck at the bottom even if they are Jesus himself. While it's fine to create a list based on set criteria and publishing it, unfortunately, you guys have the responsibility of creating the only list most fans take seriously and is treated as gospel. An unenviable situation.
Putting weight on playoff maps and MVP/EVP awards effectively means that the ranks weight heavily TEAM performance. However this should be INDIVIDUAL award, that can be measured by impact and rating. What elige did in 2024 was orders of magnitude more impressive than several names ahead that coasted through on team success, like iM. Robbed.
So they should just put in top 20 starplayers in bad teams that farmed group stages and never got to play semi-finals and finals in events or barely any play-offs against the best teams?
@@Rxb222 No. They should just put the best 20 CS players. Players like Xantares and Elige weren't on stacked teams that could just "farm group stages". They were always forced to fight for their lives from match one of a tournament, and more often than not, they delivered.
@@ddr4v7z So how do we define the best players, just based on stats or achievements? I also understand your point but you must go for trophies mvp/evp not just 2.1 rating vs top30/20 teams for that year
@@Rxb222 No. You easily solve that by loooking at individual rating against top20 teams. Both elige and xantares had incredibly high ratings against top20, much higher than iM. Those are tough games, no one is farming there. However what hltv did was to create selective bias by ignoring this and giving abnormal weight at "arena matches". You can only get to an arena match if your TEAM is good, no matter how good the INDIVIDUAL was. The same for MVP/EVP awards. Those are never given to players outside of playoffs, no matter how good they were.
ZywOo got robbed. let's invent a new stat "arena rating" and make it the most important. Wasn't used in previous top20 and the rankings were fine, at least better than this clusterfuck. Now we get broky ahead of B1t and m0nesy ahead of ZywOo anomalies. HLTV got what they wanted, they got attention and reaction from making idiotic placements. Next year, let's invent "Awp Flicking Speed" and Nero will say that, because m0nesy flicks Awp faster than Zywoo, he deserve to be ahead.
lol youre mad that players are being rated based on how they perform in the biggest moments under the most pressure? How about this year we just rank teams based on how they did in the blast bounty qualifiers
In order words, just like the fans opinions, this is all subjective, top anything depends on the criterias on which you build it. Broky was #8 for instance because in your own words, you value a player's top 5 events very highly, similarly to how hltv looks at the past 3 months. You also put more value on arena and high value matches. So in other words, as long as the peaks are high, the lows don't matter as much when you build your top 20. Which is fine, but it's obviously not anything close to "objectively correct".
Exactly. They value arena matches, individual awards, and high value matches. Then you have a player like torszi, who sucked in all of those but had "high floor" rating and that is what is used instead as a reason to place him in top20. Complete joke.
@cdrcs7225Torzsi was good in high pressure arena matches.
nothing is close to objectively correct
@@cLCS2 Cause stats at group stages shouldn't matter in the slightest in comparing the best players in the world. HLTV is absolutely correct. Studio matches, online matches, group stages. Don't matter. When everyone was shitting their pants out of donk, broky outperformed donk and zywoo and took faze to major final. That alone worth much higher than anything players lower than him did in the whole year.
In Copenhagen major
next year ranking should be based on "flashbangs thrown per round"
Why does HLTV prioritize the best few events for players knowing that it's not always an accurate representation of their entire year? It's not called HLTV's Top 20 players of their five best events, why are troughs not counted?
KingT highlights w0nderful but I think the other highly inconsistent NAVI player who slipped under everyone's radar was jL. At his best he looked like a top 5 player but he had horrible lows compared to those around him. NiKo had just three big events below 1.14 (1.09, 1.03, and the 2 series .51 Rio), sh1ro had just three events below 1.13 (1.06, 1.06, 0.72 over 2 series at cologne) while jL had his three worst events all below 1.00 by a large margin (0.90, 0.86 World Final over 2 series, 0.84). JL's peaks paint him as their equal but his entire year shows a clear gap in consistency. Without knowing the inner workings of EVP/MVP discussions it seems like consistency within an event matters more than high peaks but across the year peaks are favored over consistency.
Even looking at something like map to map peaks jL falls far behind the other two (because he was highly inconsistent overall and the system just happened to be formulated to reward the exact type of inconsistency jL brought in 2024). Sure within the criteria of 2024's top 20 jL was 5th but jL's 2024 was the exact type of year that only looks like a top 5 year if you don't take a wider lens and look at the whole year and don't take a narrower lens and evaluate it map to map instead of event to event.
Broky was in the top 3 in the first half of the year when zywoo was not awakened at that point and people forget that! And faze always had the hardest road to finals of majors. In Copenhagen broky basically matched the prime donk form and made the final possible. In kato he also did that in the playoffs. I would say broky was top 3 or top4 in the first half and top 15 in the second half. He is the second best clutcher of the game behind only monesy in 2024. He won rounds and didn't save as much as other awpers:)
Broky was top 5. Zywoo was still top 3 and sh1ro was nr 4
@georgbergsten6050 lol. Striker said the exact same thing that i write! You are dead wrong. Broky was third after copenhegan. Sh1ro is only relevant because of donk don't make me laugh man
@@f.iph7291 after copenhagen =/= first half of the year cretin, copenhagen was the second event of the year
@@f.iph7291after copenhagen maybe but not after the first season. HLTV even did a mid year checkup where Donk, m0nesy, zywoo was the clear top 3
@@georgbergsten6050 striker was hesitant between top 3 or top 4 in the first season so yeah maybe
I also said on forums that arena rating was created as an excuse to put monesy at top2, turns out i was wrong since it came out last year
but it doesnt take away from the fact that zywoo had better rating in big event playoffs this year, and monesy only got a better arena rating because monesy underperformed in epls and zywoo overperformed in epls.
You want to look at big event playoff ratings? sure thats an important stat to look but for me arena rating is bs. Are you telling me that monesy didnt get far in epls because he didnt want to try in studios? thats some bullshit lol
Bro G2 outplaced Vitality at EPL20 so it’s not about effort.
@ maybe not, but zywoo has like 1.40 in epl playoffs combined and monesy has around 1.20 in epl playoffs
its very convenient for monesy that playoffs where he performed worse than his playoff numbers get dropped which boosts his arena rating, vice versa for zywoo
@@tolgacam1907 EPL Playoffs aren't an arena. They are a small studio with a few close friends and family watching. That is not in any way "convenient".
Yall zywoo stans are dumber than turks
@ and?
Harry, the comment seer, foretelling every anguished flail of a rage post. Thanks for having me on, lads!
This narrative of zywoo being a group merchant and playoff chocker is straight up criminal. Btw zywoo had prestegious mvp cologne in 2024 monesey had none. Regards.
Turkish people cant be really objective ... Fabre coach of the year ?! , Xantares opener of the year on top of Donk ?! Maj3r IGL of the year... maybe you should decline his vote next year ... this is a joke
They put themselves Top-1 absolutely wherever possible: Xantares, woxic, maj3r, fabre. What a shame to the whole integrity of the awards. I mean, I can imagine couple of those guys (xanti & maj3r) being top-3 at their categories, but putting them absolutely the best in each category is a shame. HLTV should look closely at this not to lost the whole thing in the building
@@nikitqa09 exactly that, imagine everyone voting like him , would make no sense in having this voting and awards anymore , they should make no exception and the person responsible for this voting should be removed immediately and not allowed to vote for next HLTV awards
TBH eternal fire is absolute dosghit without maj3r so He deffinetly is really good leader but IGL of the year? Yeah no.
None of those were as bad as placing torszi in the top20
The thing I was most interested in seeing you address was the fact that why G2 was voted better than Spirit in the Team of the Year category. Didn't talk about that, or am I just stupid?
I’ve said it before and will say it again. HLTV has never heard of the eye test and the Mouz ranking is a prime example. Roles matter in terms of stats and when your put into position to farm ecos your “Rating” is gonna be better.
The issue is you have to provide a definitive criteria weighing all stats comparatively BEFORE the top 20 starts. That way you wouldn’t be explaining some players’ placing in the top 20 at times with arena rating, at times with big event rating, at times with evps, at times with ceilings/floors…etc. make up your mind beforehand to ensure the most objectivity. You’re a stats org in the end anyways.
This. They ended making up different what criteria is relevant depending on each player. It's inconsistent non-sense.
Too biased towards AWPers and Closers. I liked Launders' list, it put more emphasis on Riflers and Openers.
I think there should be a popular vote held for this awards but only a small % of the final score would be from voting like 20% and 80% from HLTV score. Cheers.
in short, "we didnt misplace them, we're just biased." there no need of hour long video.
Having specific selection criteria is of course a bias. But its a bias with transparency and a system behind it. When I see something falling to the ground, I am biased to thinking the main force behind that was gravity, even though someone might have thrown it down while I wasn't looking, which added more than half of the acceleration on the falling object. I think that my bias is reasonable given no additional information other than "object has moved to ground".
bro is mad they backed up their viewpoints
torszi top 20 and broky top 8 is criminal
Bro Torzsi didn’t choke and broky in the first 5 months of the year was top 5 in the world and farmed in important games.
HLTV should have taken notice by how the committe put elige as top3 opener, while iM was 6th. This matches the eye test for most fans. If hltv ranks land iM higher than elige, I'd say the problem is solely in w/e criteria was pulled out of the hat to use in hltv ranks.
Fighting over the scraps? These rankings can have a massive effect on these player's careers. From getting on good teams to being able to be in a better position for contract negotiation. It's pretty sad that this isn't taken more seriously. Someone else will eventually do it if you guys don't do it right.
This was in relation to third place in the opener of the year category, where donk was a clear winner and whoever got third was a toss-up. Not related to top 20 or as a general point.
@@Nohte Wow, you're incredibly manipulative
I aint watching all that, just gonna say you were wrong
Then don’t comment.
mustache
I believe that all the people who choose anyone else at top 1/2 opener besides donk and niko, shouldn't vote next year, they are too biased, same with like woxic 1st, maj3r/siuhy 1st.. anyone who choose a different coach than blade at 1st.
Really interesting podcast. Thanks for this!
To clarify, I think you did a great job pointing out what is frustrating about this list: having to follow such a set criteria and using multi-dimensional explanations as to how ropz is higher than EliGE despite having played worse. I think this criteria is designed to try and please everyone, and you'd be better off just making a list based on the eye test of a committee of analysts instead of following the gospel of the stats. You'd have a list that is less analytic in justifying but it would make a lot more common sense, and you wouldn't have to have farmers like w0nderful almost at top 10 while workhorses like XANTARES are stuck at the bottom even if they are Jesus himself.
While it's fine to create a list based on set criteria and publishing it, unfortunately, you guys have the responsibility of creating the only list most fans take seriously and is treated as gospel. An unenviable situation.
I understand now broky being on the list, but i still think super elite events got offer too many points. They have + only because of status.
im here
launders list clears yours yall are biased asl
what about the problem top 10 ppl. had the same list with the same mistakes..... someone leaked it just admit it
Putting weight on playoff maps and MVP/EVP awards effectively means that the ranks weight heavily TEAM performance. However this should be INDIVIDUAL award, that can be measured by impact and rating. What elige did in 2024 was orders of magnitude more impressive than several names ahead that coasted through on team success, like iM. Robbed.
So they should just put in top 20 starplayers in bad teams that farmed group stages and never got to play semi-finals and finals in events or barely any play-offs against the best teams?
Sample size is important and having 0 arena matches and smaller sample size is gonna hurt any team.
@@Rxb222 No. They should just put the best 20 CS players. Players like Xantares and Elige weren't on stacked teams that could just "farm group stages". They were always forced to fight for their lives from match one of a tournament, and more often than not, they delivered.
@@ddr4v7z So how do we define the best players, just based on stats or achievements?
I also understand your point but you must go for trophies mvp/evp not just 2.1 rating vs top30/20 teams for that year
@@Rxb222 No. You easily solve that by loooking at individual rating against top20 teams. Both elige and xantares had incredibly high ratings against top20, much higher than iM. Those are tough games, no one is farming there. However what hltv did was to create selective bias by ignoring this and giving abnormal weight at "arena matches". You can only get to an arena match if your TEAM is good, no matter how good the INDIVIDUAL was. The same for MVP/EVP awards. Those are never given to players outside of playoffs, no matter how good they were.
Ropz on the list at all is delusional
Broky was not top 10 stop the cap lmao
ZywOo got robbed.
let's invent a new stat "arena rating" and make it the most important. Wasn't used in previous top20 and the rankings were fine, at least better than this clusterfuck. Now we get broky ahead of B1t and m0nesy ahead of ZywOo anomalies.
HLTV got what they wanted, they got attention and reaction from making idiotic placements.
Next year, let's invent "Awp Flicking Speed" and Nero will say that, because m0nesy flicks Awp faster than Zywoo, he deserve to be ahead.
@@baptistev9630 this is the first comment that every single sentence is DEAD WRONG and comes out of fanboyism rage.
lol youre mad that players are being rated based on how they perform in the biggest moments under the most pressure? How about this year we just rank teams based on how they did in the blast bounty qualifiers
@proderock nah I think using pro league group stages is more appropriate
;P
@@baptistev9630 case in point vitality lost in lan against EF and zywoo didn't do anything. His stats are over inflated
1:16:23 ugh disgusting
Okay so what about nertz..?
Guess nertz just didn't buy stocks in HLTV like elige damn
Notable stats: 0.90 flashbangs thrown per round
what an embarrasment
Classic Nero who constantly outputs biased opinions lul