Dahr Jamail: Post-doom with Michael Dowd
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- Опубликовано: 24 июл 2024
- Dahr Jamail as guest with Michael Dowd, host. Recorded in December 2019.
TITLE: "In Post-doom, Follow Your Heart" • Click "SHOW MORE" for timecoded list of topics:
00:43 - Three Previews
02:44 - Dowd opens with quick overview of Jamail's contributions: climate dispatches, Truthout essays, the 2019 book "End of Ice"
04:42 - Jamail provides his own bio: mountaineering, beginning of journalism career as correspondent in Iraq warzone, shift to reporting on science and effects of climate change. Now no longer doing journalism; adapting his work to post-doom.
07:28 - Dowd reiterates importance of Jamail's 2019 book on climate change and "It's rare that a journalist exposes his heart in the way that you do."
08:50 - Q&A on "post-doom" as a useful term, mixture of intense emotions
10:23 - Indigenous peoples have long been in the reckoning now facing dominant culture.
11:29 - Q&A - science distinction bt linear change v. abrupt climate tipping points
16:05 - Q&A - Personal story of perspective shift and emotional adjustment, especially when experiencing diverse impacts of climate shift while doing field journalism for his book in the company of scientists.
21:31 - Iraq War experience prompted questioning of "dominant culture" values and then learning of indigenous perspectives; "Wetiko" as term to identify dominant psychopathology.
23:28 - "We have set in motion forces such that we can't get this genie back into the bottle. Our own species may go extinct because of it. ... Yet, there is a moral obligation to continue to do the right thing no matter how bleak the outlook."
24:20 - Q&A - our cultural trajectory is like an addict who hasn't yet "hit bottom": "runaway Wetiko consuming all that's left on the planet and the injustices are going to continue."
27:00 - With conventional forms of hope having fallen away, Jamail reflects on who he is now and the actions he will choose to take, in light of indigenous guidance to serve the planet and to act for the benefit of future generations of all species.
29:34 - Q&A - reflections on human nature and ancestral ecological stewardship
32:54 - Q&A - science story of Earth less helpful now than indigenous ways
40:02 - Q&A - personal experiences and understanding of death
45:49 - Q&A - gifts of passing through mere acceptance to post-doom; Stan Rushworth as teacher and coauthor; analogy of the Titanic story; gifts of death
48:49 - Q&A - the future? Need realism about what is no longer possible, then ask "What is most important in my heart to do?"
I met Dahr in 2005ish when he did an event in my city. He was doing anti-war work then and I am very happy to see that he's now come to face the truth of doom. I love that he advocates for getting quiet, listening to the wisdom of The Mystery, and then doing what you're told. That's the best, simplest and hardest advice that can be given, IMO.
There's nothing like the bald faced truth, even when it hurts this much. Thanks to you both.
You're most welcome.
It is so great to finally see people willing to discuss the very difficult topics that we have swept under the carpet for generations...
Thanks, Susan. If you've not already seen it, my latest two-part video series, "Collapse in a Nutshell: Understanding Our Predicament" has garnered 125,000 views in 12 days (a first for me): ruclips.net/video/e6FcNgOHYoo/видео.html / Please join us, if you're so led: postdoom.com/discussions/ I also recommend the "post-doom" conversations and resources found here: postdoom.com
Michael, thank you for the post doom series and Dahr, thank you for all that you do ..
Nine months later and not even 5000 views. Only a tiny number of humans will understand what's happening as the century proceeds.
I honestly don't expect there to be more than a billion people MAX within 30 years.
@@thegreatstory hahaha that's hilarious I don't expect there to be a single human alive on the planet past 2050. You can't grow food to eat on a dead planet, and once they are done eating each other it's game over! (And of course there's that thing about 400 plus nuclear reactors around the world going into full meltdown with the subsequent ionizing radiation destroying the atmosphere making it impossible for any life on Earth to survive(
@@oneirishpoet Have you seen my latest video, "Dowd on McPherson"? ruclips.net/video/MXdMj-Mb6Z4/видео.html Also see "Hopium Detox and Recovery: Accepting and Trusting Unstoppable Collapse" and/or my most in-depth video to-date: "Ten Inevitables": postdoom.com/resources/
You're dead wrong about that. People are aware, but for many the pressures of their day-to-day reality leave little headspace for 'climate action'. At least you are ready for the apocalypse!
Michael you are one of the only voices of truth and sanity on the web. Dahr Jamail is just excellent and I loved his book. Both of you are doing a great service to humanity...for those of us with ears that can hear and eyes that can see. I have known about and have been fighting climate change in my own way since 1995. But all along, I was not aware of how severe it is. That realization hit me like a ton of bricks a few years ago when all the fires started happening. The only reasonable and sane conclusion is that this civilization and quite possibly humanity itself is quickly on its way out. The grief and depression was tremendous. Honestly, I still have not reached perfect acceptance but I keep feeling the feelings and emotions as they come up and I am coping the best I can. Peace.
Thank you, my friend! If you've not already seen it, I recommend my latest, "Sanity 101": ruclips.net/video/IeDcreVILTE/видео.html
Interestingly, prior to discovering your interviews in the series or knowing anything about you I started to evaluate my reaction to what is happening. I’m a biologist and a very active volunteer. I have organized and found funding for several native forest restorations in my area and try to spread the word about consuming less, using less plastic and on and on …..all of the same issues .I find a lot of people are resistant to hearing about the reality that’s happening with insects, birds, climate, waste, toxins, herbicides, carbon dioxide, climate change, tipping points and overpopulation. They just don’t believe it’s a problem. Several years ago before the big numbers were released I already noticed a decrease in birds and insects. On my walks through fields, woods and state parks in the spring I noticed it was much quieter. I actually started grieving for the natural world and recognized it as grief. I am still grieving but also coming to a point of acceptance. It is such a gift and we are throwing it away. I stumbled upon Tom Wessels videos on forest ecology… which is my area of work, and those videos lead me to you. I started thinking that the best thing to do is to enjoy what’s here while it’s here. Thank you for this series. I’m looking forward to reading the books written by your speakers and other books you have mentioned. It’s nice to know I’m not alone in my depth of love and respect for the beauty, joy and life the earth provides us with.
It's hard for me to feel that most people are good. I see gas guzzling vehicles, litter, overflowing trash cans with plastic soft drink bottles hanging out, chemically treated lawns without a tree, bright garage lights causing light pollution, coworkers who leave for the day without shutting off lights, fans, and computers and who don't throw their recyclables in the bin but in the trash can next to it. And they all know better. It's not like they're stupid. They just don't care. It's like I'm in the Twilight Zone. I feel like I'm all alone and bailing water out of a sinking ocean liner. But I'm viewed as the eccentric.
We're all a mix of good and bad, but we're living in a sick culture, so we all exhibit dysfunction in different ways.
@@thegreatstory I think our story is not so much about bad people seizing power. I can imagine myself turning "bad" having the opportunity. It is more like evolution step that was not complete. We gained immense power and urge to use it to our benefit but we have very little responsibility for others in our brains, because we did not need it until now. Great talk, thanks!
As the world's leading polluters per person , Australians don't seem to think that reducing emissions applies to them personally..just to poor people who don't live in the " lucky country' "
Everything that was once stowed in nature twisted into perversions like rubber, plastic, concrete, cheap houses, this phone I'm holding is starting to make me feel sick and I'm greatly disheartened and very angry at people's reactions when I point out this unnatural madness. Thank you for being agreeable.
Excellent.
What a great series you have created.
Thankyou!
Thank you for this interview series, and for speaking with Dahr. Reading The End Of Ice is one of the most profoundly sobering things I've ever done, and conversations like this help to, if not comfort, at least balm the sense of extreme isolation that comes from knowing these things within a society that doesn't or won't. I'm endlessly grateful to people like Dahr for the bottomless courage of the work they do, and to Michael for amplifying these perspectives, however small the listening audience.
Thank you, Lucy!
Well thanks. You took the words right out of my mouth.
Thanks, Lucy! I agree with your statement about The End of Ice.
"the sense of isolation that comes from knowing these things within a society that doesn't or won't"
It's somewhat comforting to know there are others feeling this, just wish I knew some personally.. Everyone I interact w seems to be in complete denial. So frustrating.
Just a totally immersive series. I just play them all and fall asleep listening. My question is, when will these realities and inevitabilities ever being acknowledged by mainstream media or world politicians?
Probably never.
Wonderful Answer Michael. Truth is Beauty
This is a must watch.
Thank you for being.
You, too!
Thank you so much for this format. Hope you interview Mcpherson sometime.
I've asked him repeatedly and he's not interested. Said it was because there were a few included in my post-doom interview series that "defamed" him. Not sure who, exactly, or what he means by that. But I can't imagine how challenging it must have been to be the first one saying NTHE-related things publicly.
@@thegreatstory l understand but he is my hero and l do know of one that turned against him that l liked on your program. It was a non related to climate incident and very personal. Please ask him again and say people have requested and no one has said anything against him in an interview.
@@lindarose2327 Okay...will do!
@@thegreatstory l just saw a Ted Talk with Tammy Turner on Permaculture and hope you will find it and maybe reach out to her to see if it would be appropriate as a guest. I realize not everyone is post doom yet. Thank you for all you do.
“It’s hard not to think this culture going Mad Max”. I’ve been thinking more like Soylent Green. Saw it when l was about 10 and realised even then it was the inevitable conclusion of extreme capitalism, greed and the ridiculous idea of perpetual growth. Fantastic interview by the way.
Thanks, Peter.
Great interview
I don't know who said we should all expect to be here for ever?!! 300k years is more than enough for our barbaric species. Roll on Mad Max times, I personally can't wait!
I can wait. Where'd all that testosterone come from? Ha ha.
Amen to reality, like that!
Dahr is an incredibly smart and strong voice regarding the environmental and ecological devastation we are facing. And he was also very prescient when speaking about the authoritarianism in the US, and whether Donald Trump would still be in the White House a year from the date of this talk. Of course we know now his attempted coup failed but it could have gotten much worse if they succeeded. If we're going to have to face the end of human civilization together I would rather not have to experience it under Trump or anyone like him!
And I will happily be a co-conspirator or a co-accomplice with Native Americans That’s actually another thing I’ve been thinking out for a few years I wish they could lead us back to a better way.
Great interview.Down here in Australia tree removal has almost become a recreational activity.In some deluded way we think we can clear and burn our way out of climate change.
Well said! "In some deluded way we think we can clear and burn our way out of climate change."
Abrupt=Exponential.
That's literally not what it means lol
You said it all. I know people are not getting it. And I know why but that’s to much for a comment section. This is also written in the Bible and you are correct it’s on a motion that can’t be stopped
It's too hot here in Australia. The sun burns badly
I could really use that data dump! Can someone please direct me to the best detailed summary supporting the post-doom viewpoint?
There are only a few main pages on my Postdoom website. I suggest reading every paragraph. Re Understanding Reality, see: ruclips.net/video/Y-1fv-5_ldM/видео.html and the two "In a Nutshell" vids at the top of this page: postdoom.com/resources/ Re Adapting and Coping with Reality: postdoom.com/discussions/ Join us on one or more PDNG Zoom calls!
@@thegreatstory
Thank you very much. I recently had a column -- in which I hinted at this subject -- rejected for being too political.
grindupBaker, this conversation is with Dahr Jamail, not Guy McPherson. Read "The End of Ice" and tell me where Dahr gets it wrong.
I'll not be buying Dahr's book because I only study WG1 climate science so it would be a waste of my time, space & money. However, I jumped & skipped through a richly-padded talk part way and Dahr seems fine for what he does but here just as a favour to you to satisfy your request of me the following is Dahr's massive lie about WG1 climate science that I just heard him say and it's very much along the lines of "Guy McPherson" lies type. At 39:36 at ruclips.net/video/GKdkgOY6s5w/видео.html "would be 97 degrees Fahrenheit hotter". The correct value is "0.80 degrees hotter". I consider a value that much incorrect to be simply lying and this is the sort of thing that "Guy McPherson", Dahr (and probably yourself) just routinely do, massively misinforming people and causing mass confusion all in a very good cause, and you are sure that that is OK and even a good thing, and I am certain that it is totally unacceptable to the point of being sickening and that's the difference between us, and the reason is that my interest is WG1 climate science, and physical science FACT & REALITY in general and your interest is socio-political and making sure that good triumphs at all costs even lying propaganda. I do understand.
@@grindupBaker You are *proud* of limiting your info to WG1 science!? Well that explains a lot. Sure, technology and the market can save us... good luck with that! In addition to Dahr Jamail, I also highly recommend Peter Wadhams, Paul Beckwith, and Meteorologist Nick Humphrey. Unlike the WG1 authors (or at least the documents they're allowed to publish), these four understand that a predicament caused by economic growth and technology cannot be solved by more of the same. Indeed, our demise will only be accelerated. The collapse of industrial civilization and the extinction of Homo colossus (a la William Catton's, Overshoot, a book I'd recommend above all others) is inevitable. And it's possible Homo sapiens might not make it through the coming bottleneck either. Only time will tell.
Climate Jenga. A complex inter-dependency which creates the illusion of stability, with an increasing wobble. Then one last block removed, brings it all crashing down in an instant. It doesn't collapse block by block. It just collapses with one almost random block removed. And it's impossible to calculate which block that will be, as each block removed, induces a finger wobble which creates a tiny ever growing instability in the remaining blocks.
Climate Jenga. And the last block is almost about to be pulled out. That is where we are.
Good analogy. Think the masses are going to be left in shock by how far and fast we fall.
Yup. If you've not already seen them, my latest two-part video series, "Collapse in a Nutshell: Understanding Our Predicament" and "Overshoot in a Nutshell" garnered 140,000+ views the first two weeks they were released - 10,000 a day, a first for me: postdoom.com/resources. Join us, if you are so led: postdoom.com/discussions/
I also recommend the "post-doom" conversations here: postdoom.com
I'd really like to hear what you guys think of the 1000s or so nuclear tests that took place from 1945 until around 1960 (before they went undersea). Like a friend always remind me. We're already living in a post nuclear world of sort. How many tests and bombs would it take to agree the nuclear war did actually happen? 7, 55, 264, 739, over a thousand..?
What were the real impacts of it on climate change, the ozone layer, the atmosphere at large? I really think this troubled period of our civilization went a little too quietly in the night and is rarely revisited in the context of the actual global climate change. Thanks for those great podcasts!
Re the nuclear issue... here are some things I've found helpful... Start at 16:13 and watch for ten minutes: ruclips.net/video/iQeK04WOGaA/видео.html
Also see… ruclips.net/video/DXklDejXiNA/видео.html
theecologist.org/2021/jul/14/when-climate-breakdown-goes-nuclear
guymcpherson.com/means-of-extinction-nuclear-facilities-implode/
thebulletin.org/2021/04/is-the-us-nuclear-community-prepared-for-the-extreme-weather-climate-change-is-bringing/
@@thegreatstory Thank you sir! I will absolutely check your links. Thx again!
👍
I was into Peak Oil back before the crash of 2008 then after losing everything ended up living on a survivalist place of a few acres in the exurbs, and the philosophy there was that global warming is a hoax, even if the apocalypse is indeed coming. I think the vision was something like the movie *The Postman* where the people are fewer, but the ecology is doing great. Everything's cool and green and verdant, and all that's needed is to kill off the Bad People(tm) and then things will be peachy. Survivalist fantasies always involve killing off lots of Bad People(tm) one should note.
But this here is the real stuff. The real, scientific, doom.
Yup!
when Joe and I used to travel we knew when we were in the wrong place because we started to argue
so we trued and went another way.....I usually started to cry
so now I have a lot of land that no one else can come on and destroy
I don't think anyone ever listens to me but I'm going to post this simply because I need to release it. I am 44 and always wanted to find love and be married and kids and the picket fence. Now I understand why I could never marry. This society possibly this species was incapable of producing love. I always ask myself the rhetorical question of "What is the point of life without love?" Now I have finally found that answer. There was never any point to life without love and is exactly why I remain alone. It wasn't me. It was the species I was born into. I thought it was me my whole life though. At least I found my answer after all these years. I don't know how you guys are so positive. I simply give up at this point.
Thanks for being so vulnerable! If you've not already seen it, my latest two-part video series, "Collapse in a Nutshell: Understanding Our Predicament" has garnered 120,000 views in eleven days (which has never happened to me before): ruclips.net/video/e6FcNgOHYoo/видео.html / Please join us, if you are so led: postdoom.com/discussions/ (notice ESPECIALLY the two videos on that page!) I also highly recommend the "post-doom" conversations and resources found here: postdoom.com
The only thing I disagree with here is the idea of good/bad people. I think that goes back to a flawed way of thinking that the dominant culture uses to pathologize and ostracize people. As we know, “good” and “bad” are relative to the dominant culture. Instead, it is the basic function of human self consciousness to tend towards self-preservation (life as a whole does this, but on an ecological scale, whereas humans have shrunk that down to the individual scale over the development of western culture and philosophy). Therefore everyone is capable of great “evil”. It is wrong view that is the only true evil, and that is something even “good people” can suffer from. Right view comes from honest, deep introspection…holding one’s feet to the fire…that moment laying in the couch that Jamail described, the dark night of the soul. And the dominant culture, in its “wetiko” single-mindedness, is doing everything in its power to obscure the signal of right view with the noise of social media, partisan politics, conspicuous consumerism, greenwashing, etc
Not so in ecocentric cultures. "Good" is what promotes or encourages ecological integrity, social coherence, and personal wholeness. "Bad" is what diminishes or destroys ecological integrity, social coherence, and personal wholeness.
@thegreatstory Thank you for responding to my comment! I suppose I should have more clearly said that I was referring to a distinction between bad *people* and bad *actions*. The idea of bad *people*, in my opinion, is a much less tenable proposition than the latter.
So as far peoples' actions are concerned, I completely agree with your definition of “good” as actions that “promote or encourage ecological integrity, social coherence, and personal wholeness”.
It did bring up a thought for me though, regarding “ecological integrity”. Nature of course doesn’t hold value judgments like “good” or “bad”. A healthy ecosystem seems to tend to strive towards its own integrity and coherence. However, I am reminded of a time in Earth history, during the Paleoproterozoic, where the geological record shows that cyanobacteria first evolved the ability to respire CO2 and emit molecular oxygen as a waste product. As a result of this, a mass extinction ensued, where non-cyanobacteria were nearly eradicated, because oxygen was a toxic, lethal gas for them. On top of this, their respiration of CO2 lowered greenhouse gases so much that it caused a global, low-latitude glaciation, actually at least 4 separate events, lasting millions of years.
So I have to ask, if nature is capable of such destruction, independent of human whims-certainly these cyanobacteria are neither “good” nor “bad”, and as a result, animals were able to evolve-seen in the larger perspective of Earth history, is there really a single concept of what is “good” or “bad” for the world? A ruinous, polluting runaway overpopulation of one dominant lifeforms upsets the entire ecological balance and causes a climate catastrophe-and nature goes on, and as a result we are here to admire it.
Of course, I’m not a nihilist, and having mentioned this, I still agree that us humans should aim for what you list as “good” actions, but it definitely made me think.
Thanks again for taking the time to respond to me.
Family and friends spend more time with them .....
I fully agree!
I was figuring that the indigenous people will survive in small pockets on the earth
those that have not strayed from how they always where and eaten the beliefs of the humans
like animals that are wild....survive without humans
Are you kidding? We won’t have it nearly as good as Mad Max. That universe had gasoline after the apocalypse for some reason
I agree.
If the Monks had educated the masses instead of jealously guarding important knowledge, if the muslim libraries full of knowledge hadn't been burnt and all through history people hadn't been denied enlightenment through knowledge perhaps humans could have learnt to live in peace and harmony with the ecosystem.
Climate and social problems, combined with the digital revolution, means the end of war between nations on political grounds or any other grounds for that matter. Tech developing for farming, construction, medicine, and transport, also bode well to avert the doom assumed. "May you live in interesting times"
Thanks for taking time to watch and comment on my various videos, James. I'm much less a tech-optimist than you, however, as I suspect you know by now. "Sane vs. Insane Progress" ruclips.net/video/1wdO1bZw0Ik/видео.html
'Post doom' 🤔 don't worry, the planet you are so upset about will be fine. The Earth has been here before, a quicker pace no doubt due to human activity, but it will be back to a lush, verdant health in a few million years so all is well. The Earth is pretty resilient, even a nuclear holocaust won't stop it regenerating, we just won't be around to see it. The Earth will recover, even if we as a species don't, and hubris will be paid for in full 😤
No idea what part of what you've said you think Dahr or I would not align with, but you'd mistaken, in any event.
@@thegreatstory You don't know what I mean and you disagree with it 😂
@@badgermeat Yea, pretty silly of me, for sure!
Please interview Megan McCain. Is a resonance woman. Truly one of the greatest minds of the 21 century. She has an extraordinary depth of understanding of our current situation & innovative solutions which, if implemented would save the planet and make the economy work for everyone.
Always a sad pity to meet a fatalist; one who insists there's no practical or feasible path to ending accelerating extinction rates and reversing climate trends in time, though he was told how and never replied. Some people profit from "Climate Porn" and don't believe we're smart enough to solve this crisis and thus create a self-fulfilling prophesy. The rest of us are scrambling to get a leash on this beast and turn this ship around.
Good luck with that, Craig. I wish you the best!
Craig Mead this comment doesn’t seem to line up with your previous comment.
How so Amy? Just because I know we won't try doesn't mean I think we shouldn't. Tis true we will fail, but not due to lack of resources or tech, rather humans will go extinct due to our mental defects. That's why Mead2020.org exists...to slap tf out of zombies sleepwalking off a cliff.
Craig Mead your first comment on this thread was entirely inconsistent with the other; that is what I was referencing.
Gee- I wonder with that speech how many people you have checking out “mead 2020”. 🙄
@@votetooldotorg6184 There is your campaign ad, Craig! With the tagline, "Craig Mead: Slappin' the fuck out of zombies!"